Sheep Ranching Newbie

[Lamb Lover]

@Southern by choice thank you for your help I know this is confusing. We run into that a lot. Unless you've been with the operation and you've talked to the people it's really hard to follow even for those of us who are there because so much happens. Ve had more experience since then, the lambs are about 8 months old now and doing much better I'm happy to say.

As for you @Latestarter I would gladly appreciate it if you would stop acting like a know it all and leave me alone. You have done nothing but aggrivate me so please stop talking. Thanks. I'm not nor have I ever been with PETA. No i don't have all the facts because guess what this is a big operation with a lot of things happening. This ranch is an hour away from us and we obviously can't go out every day, plus for most of us there is a language barrier. We cant be thete every minuye of the day to know every detail. The rancher keeps to himself and literally only comes out to make himself look like a perfect little angel. As for the whole why would he hire them illegally, he's already bred the ewes and decided to keep them until September of next year so he can profit from shearing and lambing. After that he plans to further his cattle business and sell the remaining sheep which is just fine with me because then we don't have to have anything more to do with him. We don't move the sheep in stock trailers they walk everywhere. There are specific routes each herder knows in different parts of the state and they all come back to the ranch at the same time of year. I'm also aware the foreman doesn't pay for it himself the rancher gives him the money he needs for each grazing right. Everything you've said is obvious, I'm not stupid and I'm not lying thank you very much.

@SheepGirl that would defiantly be a good thing to do right now. We have a lot of ideas going and not much organization which is something I've mentioned to our leaders before. I don't agree with the term stealing however. Like I said these herders are like family now and we just wish they had better living conditions and wages. None of this is for my own benefit though I realize now it sounds like it. I'm just an extremely passonaite person especially when it comes to this so I apologize for the confusion. I tend to get carried away.

There are fifteen herders, three have gone back to Peru this month and one doesn't want to come back so that leaves us with fourteen. All of them are welcome but obviously the only ones who will come are the ones who want to stay here in America so I'm not sure how many there would be. Four for sure, the foreman, the camp tender, and two regular herders.

One thing we are wondering about is obviously how much land we actually need for this. We did some research and saw that a sheep eats about four pounds of hay a day, that could be wrong, but let's say we have fifty sheep, how much space does each sheep need? Or to make it easier how much room does a flock of that size need so we can put it into perspective. Also, if we were to give vaccinations which ones should be given or are most beneficial? What medications should we have on hand? Just simple things like that to start with please. Thank you so much for your help!

So let me clarify a little bit, I got caught up and like I said passionate and just carried away so I realize now I've failed to actually explain any of this. My mom went back to school a few years ago to become a nurse and in doing so met the herders through her professor who is from Peru. They went out to work with the men. I got involved because of the animals. I wanted to see the veterinary aspect of it and of course just be around sheep and dogs and horses because I honestly like ani,as better than people. I fell in love with the aniamls and the herders too, along with family and friends. So now we go out and and help the herders and supply them with clothes and food and things like that. We knew something strange was going on because the owner just didn't act right. His father had recently handed over the operation to him so he was in a post on of leadership he had never been in before. We brushed it off thinking he's new at this it's fine. But things never changed they just seemed to get worse. He would constantly yell at the herders for no reason, blame things on them for no reason, he was just becoming a very agressive person and we didn't know why. We sat down with the foreman one day and come to find out the rancher had been killing dogs and sheep whenever he pleased. A dog got in his way, he'd shoot it, a sheep got out, he'd shoot it, any reason he could find to kill it he would. We also found out that during the winter he was starving the sheep. We knew about the unfair wages, the illegal hiring, the mistreatment, he stopped buying them food, he didn't supply them with medical care, simple rights were taken away from man and animal just because he felt like it. At this point we had gathered enough supporters to start the association and take action. We had never planned on actually buying the sheep and bring the guys or any of that when we first started be we came to the realization that not only did we love all of them with all our hearts, but they deserved better and we had learned so much from them that the least we could do was give back. We just decided to do it the extremely complicated way haha. I'm not in charge of the association and a few of the facts are unclear on my part because of this. They give me assignments and I gather information. You are all a very big help and I knew this website was a great resource. I hope that helps clear things up a bit and again I apologize for everything before I need to work on my communication and when to hold my tongue. I know that this seems impossible and I sound like somebody who is in way over her head with no experience. I have a bit but lie you've all said it will take time but I have people to help me. Thank you again!

 

[Latestarter]

Contrary to acting like a know it all, I don't know anything! I've repeatedly said as much. I have been seeking information. as you've shared NO FACTS at all, including in your above post. It's all "he said she said" and more contradictory info from you, once again. I have not called you stupid. I have not called you a liar... but have stated that it was a possibility, because everything that you've shared does not add up. I believe you are young, confused, and misguided. I think your "association" is a scam and is sticking its nose in somebody elses business, with personal gain in mind. Justify what you are doing however you like. I have asked questions to no avail and stated my concerns and will gladly back out of this thread. I would say I wish you luck, but that would be a lie. People like you hate people like me because we ask hard questions that you don't want asked and don't want to answer.

 

[norseofcourse]

@Lamb Lover - it's nice that you're getting involved and wanting to help these herders and the sheep. I think you're finding out that it's a very complicated issue with more questions than answers! But we are trying to help.

I'm glad you realized you got a bit carried away in your initial postings, and were a bit unclear. A lot of communication is non-verbal, and we lose that when writing. Plus, everyone has their own writing style, and things don't always come across as they are meant. This can be true both of posts from you, and posts to you.

Latestarter is not trying to aggrivate you. Along with being a bit skeptical, he's asking a lot of questions and playing devil's advocate. Belive it or not, you need that, and a lot of it. It's much, much easier to answer questions and work things out at this stage of the game, than to wait till you have 1000 sheep on 40 acres, multiple issues to deal with all at the same time, and you start thinking, "Why didn't we think of this?"

If you start applying for grants, funding, loans, and donations, you'll get asked those same questions - and more. And you'll need to have ready answers, and good, well-thought out, researched answers, that can be backed up with facts and figures - part of that business plan Sheepgirl talks about. If you are vague, or defensive, or say anything that implies accusations without the proof to back it up (and if you had the proof why did you not go to the authorities, they will ask), you will lose credibility, not to mention funding sources.

I urge you to re-read latestarter's posts (and the others) - ignore the tone, concentrate on the questions. Work on more concrete answers: for example grazing. Not just 'the foreman applies for grazing rights' - do you know the exact process of applying? What government agency? Can you be certain of getting those grazing rights? Can the rancher keep his grazing rights for the cattle he wants to get? If he keeps them, can you still get grazing rights or will you go on a waiting list? How long is the waiting list? You can't just rely on the foreman knowing the process - people higher up in your group need to be aware of it, too, to avoid unpleasant surprises, such as the foreman coming to you and 1000 sheep and saying 'sorry, we didn't get the grazing rights'.

As to "how do you run a ranch"? No one can give you step by step instructions. The best we can do is give you lots of questions - regarding all kinds of facets of ranching that you will need to consider, and figure out, before leaping into this grand plan. We can't give you very many answers, because my answers will differ from your answers. A ranch here in Ohio would be run quite differently from one out west - some things will be similar, but you have issues I would never even think about, like water rights and grazing rights. You have different soil, plant species, weather, carrying capacity of the land. Other variables I am not even aware of, having never been out west, let alone to a sheep ranch out west.

I did ask a friend about hay usage, since you said you read 4 pounds of hay per day per sheep. Hay usage will depend on a lot of things - hay quality, method of feeding, nutritional needs of the sheep, weather, among others. The others are right that 40 acres will get eaten down fast. When her sheep cannot get to pasture, my friend goes through 2 600-pound round bales of hay, in two days, for about 65 sheep. The math makes that out to 9.2 pounds of hay per sheep per day.

I then estimated my sheep's hay usage (guessing on the bale weight, since I haven't weighed one). My 5 sheep currently go through a bale of hay in 3 days, but they still have some pasture. Estimating a bale at 50 pounds, my sheep eat about 3.3 pounds per day (well, they don't eat it all, some is wasted). Once winter really hits, a bale will last about 2 days, making it 5 pounds of hay per day per sheep.

Mine use less hay than my friends for several reasons: My sheep are a slightly smaller breed (what is the breed of the sheep you're considering? What is their average adult weight?). I also feed inside, from a hay feeder I built based on Premier1's design, that really cuts down on wasted hay (will you be feeding round bales or square? Inside or outside? Under roof or not? From a feeder, or just on the ground? Feeders and roofs will mean less wasted hay, but are expensive to buy or build). If you have a lot of sheep, you need enough feeders or round bales at a time so that all the animals have an opportunity to eat, not just the ones that can push their way to the food. My friend feeds two round bales at a time to her sheep - not so that they last two days, but because 65 sheep won't fit around one round bale and all be able to eat!

Whew - that's just hay - and not even all the details you'll need to think about, just about hay. How much will you need? Have you spoken to any hay suppliers to get an idea of availability, costs, quality? You say the sheep will be on the 'home range' for 4 to 5 months (March to mid-July, from your post), you'll need hay for them. You'll also need someplace to store that hay, as weather and sunlight will ruin hay quickly. And a tractor or skidloader with a hay spear to move the hay where you need it (make sure when you build your fences and gates, that the gates are wide enough for any and all equipment to get through, too).

From reading your posts, it looks like you may be backing down on the number of sheep you're thinking about getting. I'm not clear if the sheep will be just for wool, or wool and market lambs. That needs to be part of your business plan. For wool, determine the average fleece weight for that breed (we can help you look that up if you can find out the breed). The USDA posts current wool prices, although many are listed by micron size (do you know how to get wool micron tested?). You can get a ballpark figure of wool value per sheep - then minus the cost of the shearing (shearers, skirters, sheep handlers), bagging the wool, and shipping. Does your area have a wool pool to help you sell the wool? Does your state have a wool check-off you'll have to pay? You may find wool brings a lot less than you'd think. Wool prices are way down, and unless these sheep are fine wool Merino, the wool might barely cover the costs to shear, if that.

Estimating income from market lambs might be a bit easier. The shepherds might be able to give you rough estimates of lambing percentages. You can check local auctions for average prices of lambs the size you'll send to market. From those figures you can get an idea of how much lamb each ewe raises, and how much money per year she will make for you.

So why are you doing all this math? Well, it's a matter of scale. 50 ewes will probably not generate enough net income to employ 4 of the Peruvian shepherds. You need to figure out how many sheep it would take to make enough profit to hire those 4 - or however many of the 14 shepherds you are planning to hire/support. Each ewe will not net you all that much income, after accounting for expenses for feed, supplements, medical care, electricity, water, grazing fees, facility maintenance, fuel, sales commissions, check-off fees, taxes, insurance, and other stuff I'm likely forgetting. And those are the ongoing expenses - there's also the up-front capital expenses for land, fencing, buildings, and equipment (yes, donations and volunteers will help, but you need to write a business plan to be a viable operation. If you want to count donations, determine a *reachable* yearly donation goal and figure that into your business plan, too).

I know I'm leaving a ton of stuff out. Much of it has been mentioned by the others. Go to your county extension office - tell them you are writing a business plan for a sheep ranch and listen to their advice. A CPA who knows farming/ranching (and nonprofit) is also great advice - there is a lot of paperwork and you don't want to miss any. And they can also tell you what records to keep, so when tax and reporting time comes around, it'll go much more smoothly.

And finally (because this is getting so long), I know you're all fired up about saving these sheepherders and all the animals, but maybe you could explore other alternatives as well. Surely there are other sheep ranches in your state - maybe network with them and you might find one or two who would be willing to hire some of the sheepherders. You can still stay in touch with them, and work on supporting and marketing their artwork - which might turn out to be a better way to help them become more self-sufficient. Do some thinking outside the box, and you may come up with other ideas, too.

Good luck.

 

[Bossroo]

Lamblover... What I can gleen from your postings smacks very much what happened to a fellow arabian horse breeder about 8 years ago in N Ohio. She was newly divorced, owned over 60 National top show horses, she baught a horse ranch, hired a forman, trainer, and farm laborors. She movedin her ederly , frail mother so that she could care for her daily. A few months later, her sister fell ill to cancer , so she took her in . So the "help" became lazy and didn't take care of the horses or ranch as they were hired to do. The traner quit, followed by the forman. The farm laborors didn't do anything unless they were directly told to ,but in slow motion. She became overwelmelmed so she asked for help ...good hearted people soon came to clean stalls, baught hay on her account, etc. . Soon this help became spoty at best, so the local "humane society " got involved and accused her of animal cruelty. The decended onto her ranch in droves with trucks and trailers to seize all of her horses and transport the best horses to their own ranches and the rest to the County Fairgrounds. Then they started to present her with feed, housing, Vet.care, farrior, transportation costs for the seized horses. Then the " do gooders" filed a law suit in a jurisdiction where the local judge was one of the animal rights sympathysers. This poor lady was soon overwhelmed with more and more bills from lawyers as well as more bills from the " do gooders". She lost her ranch and horses and ended up in a mental breakdown. The " do gooders" ended up with top National show horses and the local humane society ended up with her property. Look it up in Court Records in N Ohio. If I were you , I would ask some hard questions of those that run your association as well as some hard questions from the gentleman that owns the ranch and sheep as person to person without any accusasions to seperate the true facts from fiction that we see here. You could easily end up in a slander lawsuit if you blidly follow the " association" piper. By the way, once again ... IDENTIFY this " association " and any relationshiop to a animal rights group, as well as it's legal status.

 

[Lamb Lover]

@norseofcourse thank you those are all very good points that I'm working on. I met with the leader Sunday night and we discussed a few things but we didn't have much time and she's currently working on a few things as we speak. (She's a dreamer so we don't always have everything in order.) I will defiantly get with her ASAP however and make a list of the things you mentioned so we can get cracking. I know there is a lot being left out on my part and I'm sorry but like I said I can't be at the ranch 24/7. I'll try my best to gather more information for you all so it makes more sense hopefully. It's a lot to take in and a lot of stress on my end unfortunately.

We have talked to another rancher in the area who also has Peruvian herders and he treats them like roalty. He also offered to house my personal sheep until I could get their pen set up which was very kind of him. I plan on getting in touch with him and seeing what he thinks we should do and get a few tips. As for the art, two who went back to Peru will be back here in about three months now and they will bring all the art they made as well as instructions on how to die wool and other things they do in Peru that would be beneficial if we continue to do fundraising.

I'm having a meeting soon with our leader and a few major organizations interested in what we are doing soon so I'll see if they have any ideas or ways to assist us with creating a yearly goal. I'm also going to be getting in touch with the Humane society soon to see what their game plan is for other medical procedures on other dogs. They recently operated on two and I watched both operations to insure the dogs were fine. I personally know all the vets and staff and I'm organizing a day spa for the dogs and horses in the spring to clean them all up and get them check ups which the Humane society actually offered to set up and fund. I have long term things figured out I can assure you, it's just things right now are all over the place.

We know somebody who sells hay and it's not too expensive, square bales. I can get in touch with them as well and see if they can give me an estimate on prices and quality. As for feeders I'm not sure how we would set that up because as of right now the herders drive a tractor and trailer or a hay truck into the fields when the sheep are at the ranch and toss bales off. They all seem to get their fill and they have plenty of grass to eat so I think for right now that way is fine but I think we would change that if we can accomplish this goal.

@Bossroo I think I heard about that and I undertake where you're coming from. Majority of us are friends and family so I don't think anything that bad would happen, not saying it won't but I think with these people there is a slim chance. I will defiantly keep an eye out for anything strange though. I will send the leader an email tonight and get with her as soon as I can to give you all an update and some better information. Thank you all for your help I really do appreciate it. Sorry about everything before. I'll keep an open mind and let you know what happens!

 

[Lamb Lover]

Forgot to mention that these sheep are for wool and the lambs are going to market. The lambs being sold are a Suffolk cross. The wool sheep are white but that doesn't narrow it down. Not even the herders are sure of the breed so I'll try my best to find out. I've actually been looking for a while now comparing them and I think I have a few narrowed down. I'll let you know when I find out.

 

[Lamb Lover]

So update, I just met with the leader and I have to have a 144 page legal H2A visa document read by this weekend. It's an updated regulation document and I was told to find key points so we are following all the rules and we know everything we can so we don't break any laws.

Also, we will be meeting with the foreman this weekend hopefully to discuss everything. (Herders have been moved and he is know taking care of everybody and a whole band by himself and literally not even sleeping.) But he's been doing this for more than forty years so he knows where all the best grazing land is, how many acres we need for the ranch, what to feed, all that.

We do know of another potential ranch. The people had already considered selling it to the leader before all this and it has houses and barns and all that on site. We are also making a business plan as soon as we meet with the foreman.

After we get all of our ducks in a row I'll tell you what we have gathered and ask for your opinions and ideas because I value them since you all know more than I do in this particular area.

Thanks again and I'll talk with you soon.

 

[Bossroo]

The best advise that I would give you is to stay as far away as you can get from any "humane society" or any other group that is similar. I have seen and heard of their workings too many times to even consider contacting them for their " assistance" as every one of their human "clients" end up the big loosers. I have 2 good friends who worked for a "humane society " in S. Cal. for about a year. When they started to ask some serious questions about the societies' management and money matters, they where then became persona -non- grata and accused of all types of neglect, pilfering funds, etc. ... all of the questions that they started to question was suddnely their fault. They were fired and when they applied for other jobs and stated that they had worked there for the past year ... they got HORRIBLE reviews and all of the society's wowes were their fault. You are young and passionate with a good heart, but you are being led down a yellow brick road. Open up your eyes and ask some very serious questions of the leadership of your group that you have yet to identify. WHY ??? That is a RED FLAG right there !!! Why haven't you contacted the rancher to have a serious face to face non- confrontational meeting with him to get his point of view of this situation ?

 

[Baymule]

Anything to do with any "Humane" society, I would stay far, far away from. All the "poor mistreated animals--SEND MONEY" ads on TV make me retch. It is a money making racket under the banner of "Save the animals". In Texas, there is no recourse, meaning if the SPCA swoops down upon you and steals, yes I said STEALS your animals, you don't get them back. Then the SPCA "rehabilitates" your animals, paid for by bleeding heart donations from the ignorant, and sells them for a tidy profit. But wait! It is a non profit, so better give the paid administrators a RAISE!. Gag a maggot.

 

[Lamb Lover]

@Bossroo yeah I know but one lady I know is different she's very interested and wants to help so I think I'll stick to her. The reason why I haven't mentioned it is because we havent decided on a name yet we will decide this weekend when we have everyone together.

@Baymule aren't they awful? I hate it. If you're going to put an ad of tv actually donate the money I mean really. It makes me upset that they don't help them as much as they should be. Poor animals. That's hey I'm doing this, because I can help and I hate to see animals suffering.