Size of bore buckling?

[Straw Hat Kikos]

Yeah some major creep feeding there. lol

People (not pointing fingers) like to be critical of those of us that creep feed but what most seem to not realize is no matter how much feed you put in front of a baby goat they will only consume so much and no matter how much they eat they will only grow to their genetic potential. You can't force slow growing genetics to grow faster by feeding more.
We show our goats so yes they are creep fed. We like fast growing genetics. The last few years our kids average daily gain (ADG) has been between .60 - .82
Our feed is ADM 18% Meat Goat w/alfalfa. This has Rumensin. It is a mini pellet that the kids seem to prefer over a regular size pellet.

Donna

I'm not saying it is wrong or right to creep feed. I personally like really big goats and a creep fed goat will be larger than a dam only raised goat. If I were in the Boer side of things I would totally creep feed and I would like it because I'm getting really huge goats that have big ADG. Buuut I'm in Kikos and creep feeding isn't much liked and esp alot of creep feeding so mine are dam raised only, which does make for a smaller goat but the dam raised only is big to us Kiko people.
So I'm not knocking you or anyone that creep feeds.

 

[20kidsonhill]

I guess I am going to have to go looking for food. All I can remember seeing around here is Purina and Nutrena. There may be others, but I don't recall seeing them. I live in a rural area with a largish city close and more than a few feed stores within 30 miles so surely one of them must have a high protein medicated feed.

Is the ammonia cholride a must for kids? And if so, why?

Ammonia chloride is for UC(urinary calculi) in your bucks and wethers. And yes it is a must when feeding at these high levels, it should show up on the ingredients label and normally goat feeds labeled as a goat grower or developer will have the ammonia chloride in it and have the proper 2 to 1 ratio of caclium to phosphorus, which also helps with urinary calculi prevention.
Also, most show goat feeds will contain these things, but you would be looking at almost $20 a bag for these feeds.
ADM dose make a good feed.
Kent feeds are pretty good.
But also look at your local feed mills, Co-ops, one of them might make a good local feed. A farm store connected with a feed mill, should have the best prices on feeds.
But if you just get the phone book and start calling and asking them what brand of goat feed do they carry, you may save yourwelf some driving time.
Mak a list of questions about the feed before calling.
percent protein
percent fat
percent fiber
type of mediction if medicated: rumensin or deccox. Some feed mills prefer deccox, because it is safer to mix. If a mistake is made with Rumensin it can be dangerous to the livestock. Deccox has a higher safety margin for making mixing mistakes.
pelleted?
contains ammonia chloride?
Then go look at the feed, is it bownigh/tan or greenish looking. How big are the pellets?
A greenish tinted pellet that is smaller is really what you are looking for. It should smell good like good quality hay that is fresh.

 

[Renegade]

I guess I am going to have to go looking for food. All I can remember seeing around here is Purina and Nutrena. There may be others, but I don't recall seeing them. I live in a rural area with a largish city close and more than a few feed stores within 30 miles so surely one of them must have a high protein medicated feed.

Is the ammonia cholride a must for kids? And if so, why?

Yes ammonium chloride is a must.

As far as feed being available in your area you can get some feed stores to carry the feed you want. The ADM feed we use was not available in this area. I asked a few feed stores to carry the food I wanted and was turned down multiple times before I found one that would. We use about a 1/2 ton of feed each month and the feed store says he now sells 2-3 tons of that feed to other goat breeders in the area.
Go online and find a feed you like that has a dealer in your area. You may have to call multiple feed stores to find one that will order it for you.

Donna

 

[babsbag]

I didn't realze that UC could affect kids that soon. Good to know

We do have a feed mill near here and I buy my dairy grain from them, I like it and the does like it so I will ask if they have a grower feed available. It is a sweet feed and I only use it on the milking stand so not something for kids.

I was talking with my goat mentor this morning about creep feeding and I was wondering if you would mind sharing what it costs you to raise a boer to weaning and what prices are you getting for them when you sell them? She has been raising goats for years and says that in California we are lucky to get 200 for a market wether and that we would go broke if we did the intensive feeding that you are doing.

I am new to the boer world and very interested in learning. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Renegade]

We are not in the wether market. We sell to the open show goat and replacement breeding stock market.

Donna

 

[babsbag]

We are not in the wether market. We sell to the open show goat and replacement breeding stock market.

Donna

Good to know, thank you. Most of my friends sell to 4h kids for fairs or to auctions. We don't have a USDA slaughter facility within an easy drive so selling meat cut and wrapped is not feasible either, even for those that have a commercial outet available.

 

[20kidsonhill]

Our feed is $420 a ton or 21 cents a pound. Our hay is $5.00 a bale for 45 lb bale. We pasture our adult animals from April to November and adults over 2 only get grain when being bred for a month or the last month of gestation and through lactation, so about 4 months of the year.
All animals under 2 are fed grain daily.

We sell our wethers a week to two weeks after weaning, so most are gone by 10 to 11 weeks of age and to their new homes. that is where it helps us save money .We aren't feeding them out real long. I will kee does around a little longer if I need to. Renegade shows breeding stock and is in a higher price bracket than we are, but she will have more expenses from showing and keeping everyone in show condition. Our main herd is NOT in show condition. We just can't afford to feed them all and keep them all fat and sassy. We put our majority of our feed into growing kids and doelings that we are keeping to put back into the herd.

We calculated the other day that it is around $250.00 for us to feed a kid from birth to a year of age with grain and hay for the year, a little pasture. And that is not show condition at a year of age that is cutting them back to 2 lbs a day after they are 6 months old.
We recently talked to someone who was feeding their buck 7 lbs of grain a day and the feed was $16.00 for a 50lb bag, so they were spending $16 every week on grain alone on just hte one buck so they could keep him in show condition. We would go broke.

We also have calculated that it is around $200 a year for us to maintain a doe. that includes wormers, vaccines, grain and hay. An adult doe will eat 6 lbs of hay a day during the winter months for us that is around 4 months. So she will eat 6 x 30 x 4 = 720lbs if hay in the winter. 720lbs divided by a 45 lb bale of hay is 16 bales of hay per doe. 16 bales x $5.00 = $80.00 in hay. If she is older than 2 she will eat around grain for around 4 months of the year. 2 of those months she will eat 1 lb a day and 2 of those months she will eat 2 or 3 lbs a day. Let's say she eats 2 lbs a day for 120 days = 240 lbs of grain x .22 cents = $53 in grain for the year.
so $80 plus 53 = $133 plus wormers plus vaccines and unexpected expenses. some electricity and fuel for the truck, ect... So we figure $200.0 per adult doe over two years of age,

It is more like $250 per year for a doe under two years of age, they are eating mroe grain on a daily basis.

Okay,now the kids
a kid will start eating a little grain by 2 or 3 weeks of age, and a little hay. Let's say a kid by the time they are 25 lbs is eating .75 lbs of grain a day. they will be about a month old by the age for sack of rounding off.
A kid that weighs 50lbs will be eating 1 /12 lbs of grain a day and they will be about 8 weeks old, again some will be more.
As Renegade stated her daily gains are .6 to .8, so if she has 9 lbs kids and they gain .6 a day htey would be 42.6 lbs by 8 weeks of age. (8x7x.6)+ 9 = 42.6lbs
So let's average it and say from 4 to 8 weeks the kid eats 1 lb of grain a day and from 8 to 12 weeks the kid eats 1 1/2 lbs a day. so that would total. 70 lbs of grain for the first 12 weeks. We sell almost all of ours by 12 weeks. So we woudl have 70 x 22 cents = $15.40 cents of grian in each kid. I really don't feel creep feeding is worth the arguement. The majore cost is the cost of feeding his dam for the year. Remember somehwere between $200 and $250 for maintanance feeding. That is not to keep the doe in show condition. If she has two kids then each kid right away cost $100 to $125.00 to raise plus the $15.00 in grain, Of course there is some additional hay or pasture, vaccinations and parasite management invovled per kid, but you would have those with or with out creepfeeding.

This is not even taking in consideration the cost of purchasing the dam or the sire and the cost of feednig the sire for the year. My sires are on 4lbs of grain each right now. They are 2 years old and growing boys, but they are by no means in show condition.
Obviously if you are feeding kids out for 4 or 5 or 6 months then your grain costs are going to be higher.

We calculated that to keep a doe kid for the entire year and sell her next year as a yearling would cost us $250.00 just in feed and hay. We were trying to decide if it paid to get $300 to $350 for her as a 12 week old kid or feed her out for the year and consign her at a breeders sale the following year. Well, we would have the $300 that we woudl most likely get right away, plus the $250 in feed costs, plus there are consignment costs and registration costs. So we woudl then have to get $600 for that same doe as a yearling. It is a lot easier getting $300 for her as a 12 week old kid.

To answer your question.
We charge $165.00 for our average wether picks.
$200 to $250 for the better ones.
$250 to $450 for does for breeding
and $450 to around $650 for fullblood breeding correct bucks. We only have a couple of these a year.
Last year we had a ton of nice does, we had 75% does and we did really well. They sold out fast and we turned a profit on our farm. this year we had a ton of bucks and it will be harder to make the kind of money we did last year. We try to kid out around 45 kids a year. We will be a little lower than that this year. We are at 26 right now with 6 does left to kid. So maybe another 10 or so kids. most of those remaining does are first timers.
We kid our does out at 14 months of age and then again when they turn two years of age. So we get a kidding from them every year.

Hope that helps.

Wethers around here are averaging $150.00 to $200 sold to 4H/FFA kids as project animals, but can go up to $1,000 or more at some breeders auctions for jack pot shows.

We do have USDA butchers in our area, so some do that and our stock yards feed into New Holland sTock yards and they feed into New York. So the market is strong in our area.

Sulfa dimethoxine and Corid is a major expense for us during kidding season. It is $100 for a gallon of Corid and half that for Sulfa, but you use twice as muc Sulfa as Corid. We normally go through around $200 dollars a year for coccidiosis treatment. You can easily figure that into our cost per kid and at lets say 35 kids for the year it will come out to $5.70 per kid. We don't seell all our kids we keep 4 to 5 does a year and our son keeps two wethers, but he does get paid for those at the end of the fair. So there is that expense as well orlack of profit.

Some years we break even, some years we don't. We use the farm as a tax right off, but it is not really just for that. We do try to get the goats to pay for themselves, or at least their feed and medication costs. While fencing and barn improvements end up being the tax right off part.

Our goal is to get the kids to grow fast, keep them healthy and sell them early.

 

[babsbag]

WOW!!! Thank you for the complete lesson in feeding and raising kids and farm economics. You put a lot of work into that answer and I really appreiciate it. My hay is about the same price if I buy it in bulk and get it from the right grower, otherwise I pay 18.50 a bale but our bales are about 100-110 lbs. I have not priced out grain other than what I feed to my dairy does. I don't feed grain at all right now unless I am milking, even when they are raising kids I feed only alfalfa unless they are getting milked as well. They get alfalfa year round and my pasture is pretty much non exisitant. Hopefully one day I will get some cross fencing in and figure out how to grow pasture at least in the spring and winter. We get no summer rain so that is tough.

At used to feed COB, BOSS, alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, and pelletized goat feed in addition to alfalfa hay, but that was when I had about 6 goats. I now have 21 and not only can I not afford it, but I can't keep them from fighting at the feeder and the bossy ones getting it all. I just gave up and my goats actually look better than they did when they were getting all the supplemental feed.

The prices you sell your wethers for is not that much different than our prices. Someone had told me that people in the midwest were selling 4H wethers for 500.00 + ...not sure I believe that.

I have a few more questions, of course.

Are your does %? What I am really asking is this...is there any dairy blood in their near past? Do they have alot of milk for thier kids?

I understand creep feeding, and I have a really nice one I bought last summer but how do you feed your does and bucks their grain? Do they each have a feed bucket and do you stand there and make sure they eat only thier allotment?

If you don't have the does on grain during lactation do you notice a difference in the growth rate of thier kids, or have you always fed grain to your does and therefore don't know?

Do you have problems with ff dams not having enough milk for their kids or do those does get culled early on?


I have been told that you can breed boers more frequently than dairy, I think I was told 3x in 2 years. Do you stick to once a year per doe?

I am sure I will have more questions as the year goes on. My boers are due next month and I am anxious to see what I can do with ADG this year. I didn't track any last year. I know I would have to breed much sooner in the year if I ever want to sell kids for fair projects. I think most of my friends kids are buying wethers that are born in Nov. for our June fair.

Unfortunately my buck was not a fast grower, but he is spotted Can't have it all I guess. It maybe that I need to find another buck if I am serious about breeding for something other than color. However his kids from last year look pretty good considering there is not really any proven genetics behind them.

I can really see the logic in selling the kids soon. The amount you are spending on grain is negligible. Again, I have people telling them they spend 200.00 to get a kid to market and they aren't counting the cost of the doe or buck, they are talking feed for kids only, but they are also selling at a much later age than you are. I like your plan, let someone else finish them.

 

[20kidsonhill]

Are your does %? What I am really asking is this...is there any dairy blood in their near past? Do they have alot of milk for thier kids?Half my herd has nubian cross in it. I originally had 4 does that were 50% Boer/Nubian and I have kept several does from them. Those original does would now be 10 year old, I have one of them left, the others I culled last year. They are very good producers and produce very good kids. The dam's themselves seem to require more feed than my 100% boers and fullbloods, the kids grow like crazy, but of course do not have quite as much top on them(loin). But some of the 88% Boer/12% nubian kids are showing very well in the wether ring. We often place 3rd or so in a tough class of 10 and we had a light weight champion last year at one fair with over 100 goats in it and we had reserve overall champion at another small fair and Grand Champion at yet another fair, also a smaller fair. All of those kids were 88% Boer/12% Nubian. But our competition in general isn't as tough as the Midwest. Although our fair has about 100 goats in it and the upper half of each class of ten is normally very competitive. the other half of our goats is either 100% or fullbloods

I understand creep feeding, and I have a really nice one I bought last summer but how do you feed your does and bucks their grain? Do they each have a feed bucket and do you stand there and make sure they eat only thier allotment? We have 5 foot long wooden feeders, you can look through my photos on my kidding thread, The main herd of about 20 does is fed grain in these long wooden feeders. They do okay eating out of them, the design works well. It is not possible to group feed and have everyone get the exact same amount. I don't worry about it. If I see someone loosing weight I may feed them separate. We have small pens set up in our barn and it is easy to train one or two of them to go into a pen during feeding time and get their fair share. Our bucks are fed and kept seperate most of the year, they eat out of dog food bowels and I separate them by a good 20 feed or so. My yearling does are kept separate and normally there are around 4 or 5 in that group. Right now I have some 2 year old does also separated, because they were having some issues and weren't doing well in the main herd. So I have 13 older adults in the main herd, 5 that are 2 yaer olds with kids off to the side in a small dry lot, and 5 does that are going to be yearlings that I kept from Feb 2012 kidding that are off in a small pasture. 2 bucks in a small pasture, and a new buckling that I just got in a small dry lot pen and another buck that is 8 months old in another small dry lot pen that is being fed for a consignment sale. Then we will move everyone around when I need to wean this first group of kids. They will be weaned at 9 weeks of age. I have another group getting ready to kid as well. I carry a 12lb bucket and a feed scoop out with me and start spreading the feed. I alwayls feed in the same pattern, this helps a lot. I smack anyone over the head that thinks they can stick their nose in the feed scoop or in my bucket. They are not allowed to be in my personal space. They learn very quickly who is in charge.

If you don't have the does on grain during lactation do you notice a difference in the growth rate of thier kids, or have you always fed grain to your does and therefore don't know? We used to feed way less grain to even our does in lactation and we had slower growing kids that took longer for us to sell and never looked as good as they do know. But keep in mind we only used to feed grass hay in the winter and we have almost always kidded in the winter when temps are cooler and less parasites, but no pasture and only grass hay, no alfalfa. We know also feed about 2 lbs a day of alfalfa to the does that are lactating, 2 lbs of grain each, and unlimited grass hay during their lactation. The last week before weaning we will switch to mostly grass hay to help them dry up and they will be weaned out to pasture into calf huts, with only grass hay, when they are weaned at this point there will be very little pasture. Maybe had we done more with alfalfa we would not notice as much of a difference.

Do you have problems with ff dams not having enough milk for their kids or do those does get culled early on?We have never had problems with FF dams until this last group of fullbloods we purchases, they are higher end with more ennoblements and have a lot of flushes in their pedigrees, although the does that I purchases were dam raised. They are in general not thriving in our herd, not holding weight, not milking enough to raise twins and one of the 4 does has rejected a kid two years in a row. We are using the kids at this point as wether projects, even though they should be quality fullblood breeding stock. We are considering culling them and looking for new fullbloods. I do have 2 other fullblood does in the herd and they have done well and I have a 100% line of does(not registered) that originated from one dam from a wether maker farm. We got her from Indiana and they have all done well for us. We have the dam and 4 daughters from her right now, 2 of those have kidded several times and are very easy keepers. The original dam is 7 and she has been a very very easy keeper, a great doe. She doesn't eat near as much as my Boer/Nubian crosses. Before I got these latest 4 fullbloods(out of ohio), I woudl have said they all milked great.


I have been told that you can breed boers more frequently than dairy, I think I was told 3x in 2 years. Do you stick to once a year per doe?
We need to breed for our wether market and so breeding 3 times every 2 years just throws everythign off, but my Nubian/Boer crosses will breed just as easily as my fullbloods out of season. Plus we really prefer winter kids. Our coccidiosis levels in our area are horrible and if we have summer kids they just don't do as well for us. It is another reason we try to get a lot of gain on them right away and sell them. Less we have to deal with on spring/summer pastures when the parasite loads hit their maximum.

You are right about the cost of wethers in the midwest, it is fueled by all these jack pot shows. Kids can make money at these shows and there for can justify spending 500 to 1,500 or more on their wethers. We visited a farm in Indiana that didn't let anythign go for under $1,000 for their wethers. ONe year my husband went out to the mid-West with a group and brought home a wether and a doe for our kids to show. One was $750 and the other was $850. They both did very well. but my kids only get around $6.00 to $7.00 a lb for them at the auction after the fair and that doesn't justify spending that kind of money. The doe we brought back home and she is our wether maker doe. She does a good job. We are slowly building a good part of our herd around her. Many of the fairs we have been to will have a couple $1,000 wethers and they are almost always the grand champions at the fair. For our area that is a lot of money. I realize in the mid-west that would be more common and the competition would be much tougher.

I am not sure about the $200 feed cost per wether. Maybe if they are feeding show feed. For my son to feed out his wether unti the show it costs him a fair amount. The show feed is $20 a bag and a wether will eat right at 3 lbs a day for a good 4 months. Not much hay invovled. They only get a handful a day. So 3 x 120 days is 360 lbs of grain A little more than 7 bags, plus a bucket of top dress that is $50.00. So $170 in feed costs. That is about what it costs to feed out our show lambs as well, plus we buy our show lambs and they are around $300 right now. it doesn't take much to realize if we paid much more than $300 for the lamb my son woudl make no money on his fair project. On a good year he may get around $7.00 a lb for his 125 lb lams. So he makes a little, but not tons.

So not sure why they are spending so much feeding the show wethers out before they sell them. The 4H kids want to come and get them so they can start working with them. There is really no reason for the chidlren to not come and get them as soon as possible. Are the kids in your area expecting to own the animal for a less amount of time before starting to show them?

If you are feeding only alfalfa hay and then selling them as show wethers, are you expecting the kids to get them off the hay and switch them to show feed? Show wethers are not suppose to be fed hay, or very little. I know many wether maker farms that feed no hay and all grain, even to the dams while they are lactating so the wethers don't get much hay. We have had problems with our wethers getting too much of a rumen from being exposed so early on to hay and spring pasture, but I am not prepared to not feed my lactating does only grain. Of course if you feed only grain your grain has to be a 16% or 17% fiber and our grain that we are using is ony a 12% fiber, because we feed hay. When we take my son's wethers off of hay we will switch to a show feed that has more fiber in it and is formulated to be the only feed they get.

 

[babsbag]

We have had problems with our wethers getting too much of a rumen from being exposed so early on to hay and spring pasture, but I am not prepared to not feed my lactating does only grain. Of course if you feed only grain your grain has to be a 16% or 17% fiber and our grain that we are using is ony a 12% fiber, because we feed hay. When we take my son's wethers off of hay we will switch to a show feed that has more fiber in it and is formulated to be the only feed they get.

So that must be what is meant by "hay belly". I always wondered about that. I have a doe with a hay belly, and now she is bred and really has a big belly. I laugh that she is as wide as she is tall. I hope she has multiples and not one big kid as she is fairly small. She has almost a month to go and I swear she is going to pop.

I think that the children are required to own the animal for a minimum of 60 days to show at the fair, but most of them are buying their goats in Jan. I haven't sold any to that market and I would have to change my kidding times, something I probably should consider. Our winters are not severe so there is really no reason not to kid out in the winter, other than the mud. Since our summers are dry the coccidia problem is not as bad as it could be but I did start preventative treatment last year for the first time. I never had a problem until I brought in some does from another ranch :/

I appreciate all the information. I will start my search for feed and build some grain feeders for my does. I need to figure out a way to keep it dry too as I don't have enough space under cover for more than their hay feeders. I am hoping to sell some of my Alpines this year and only keep about 3 dairy does so that will help with the space issue. I love milking, but I have no kids at home to drink the milk and I can only use so much. I am planning on a pig this year to feed milk to. But I still don't need 6 does in milk