STARTING OUT WITH DORPERS. An Aussie experience.

[Ridgetop]

Looks dry so I can see why you need a sheep that can survive on less forage. most of the sheep breeds originally were grazed on nice green grassy pastures. More like New Zealand? Dry pastures are harsh but by breeding hardy sheep that can forage well on less, you can make it work. You are certainly figuring it out. We are dry too, but haven't any graze because of the drought. Thought we were going to have an El Nino year for a while, but only a couple days of rain. Still dry and brown.

This is our land after good rains - You can see the dry grasses and forage. However, the photos below show our land now without rain. This is why shepherds used to travel looking for grazing for their stock. Of course this dry dirt inside our fece line is what saved us from the Creek fire.

The picture below shows some stuff below the fence line on the front of the property, very steep and mostly brush. Good coyote cover, which is why we need more livestock guardians.

On the other hand, amazing sunsets and beautiful view. I suppose I can carry feed a while longer! LOL


What is your predator load? Mostly wild dingoes? Do you need livestock guardian dogs or do you have much in the way of predator losses?

 

[The Old Ram-Australia]

OMG, that looks a "hard" bit of country,are your dogs Anatolian? It would be interesting to see the land in a "good season"?

In our district the main predictor is the Red Fox,the Dingos are further west in the main although a neighbor once said that there had been a sighting in the National Park to the East of us years ago.
We fix the foxes with 1080,because I am to "old" now to be out in the frost in the winter with the rifle.
In the first pic is that a wild fire in the distance?Is all your fencing 6 ft chain-wire?......T.O.R.

 

[Ridgetop]

Actually, I think that is one of the fires we had before Christmas. I believe it was the one that ran through Ventura down to the coast at Malibu. It had just started and I got a photo of it. I posted it just thinking it was a good shot of the valley with clouds. By the next day, there was no visibility at all due to the smoke. From our hill top we keep a close eye out for fires. They are common here, destructive, and terrifying. After they are put out, the destruction does not end - when the rains come we have massive mudslides where the ground cover has all burned off leaving bare soil on the hills.

This is semi-desert type terrain. When we get enough rain the forage and grass comes up beautifully. Some years it has grown to the height of a man's chest. That was in the El Nino years. Haven't had many of those in a while. The grass is just annual, not year round, and the grazing is the sort that the sheep and goats have to keep moving through to get a complete diet. As soon as the rains stop and the sun comes out for more than 2 weeks, the grass starts to die to brown. It is still good grazing but not as nutritious which is why we give our sheep a night time feed of alfalfa in the barn or night fold. The last year of good forage (and rain) was about 2 summers ago. The lambs couldn't be seen through it unless they jumped up in the air and you caught sight of them! They would get separated from mum and bawl and the dogs had to go down to check on them. A coyote almost got one but the dog saw him and interceded. Our neighbor had a great view and drove over to tell us about how impressive they were. It was all in a day's work for them.

Our fences are not 6' chain link. We started with 5' chain link fencing, but soon learned that it did not hold up against horses and goats who like to rub on it and stretch it. We have learned a lot over the past 30 years, and when we added 4.5 acres to our original 1.6 acres we fenced the entire perimeter with welded oil pipe (3-4" diameter) with woven wire "no climb" stock fencing on it. The fences are only 5' tall, but our dogs respect them and don't try to go over or dig under. We make periodic checks of the boundary fencing because after winter rains (when we have any) the dirt washes out from under the fencing and needed to be repacked with rocks and dirt. What we finally did in those problem areas was to take chain link pieces and lay them over the ground inside the fence and attach the upper end to the fence. The grass grows through, dirt and rocks get washed on to it, and the chain link is held in place making a dig proof bottom line to our fences. In the front of the property the land comes steeply downhill to the fence which causes dirt and scree to build up against the fence on the inside. In a couple of places the original fence is now 4' or less. We have attached additional posts to the original oil pipe posts and are stringing woven wire on them to raise the fence height to about 7'. The dogs have not bothered to jump out, but we don't believe in taking chances. We have already done this fence raising along the sides of the property going into the gully where the dirt, rocks and scree have washed from the upper side into the lower side of the gully, causing the height of the fence there to be "lowered" too. Actually the ground level inside the fence has been raised by the dirt and scree that has washed down against the fence. Constant fence maintenance is a real pain in the neck, but needs to be done!

You are correct, our dog are Anatolians. We used to have Great Pyrenees and we loved their sweet dispositions with our children and strangers. However, the bloodlines we had liked to guard by chasing off all predators for 100 acres around our property so after Poppy died of cancer and we started having predator kills again we got an 16 months old Anatolian bitch. Her guarding style is exactly what we wanted. She stays with the sheep, but does her patrols too. We needed another guardian dog since the coyotes are bad here and we had additional kills, so we added a young male Anatolian a couple years ago. They are 6 and 3 years old now. We are in the process of bringing in another female Anatolian puppy. 2 dogs would be enough on some 5 acre parcels, but we are surrounded by coyotes (even though we are technically in the suburbs of Los Angeles county). Our topography is also very steep which enables coyotes to get over and under fences. In addition, our home and barn sit on the top of the ridge which means that our property is split in half and the dogs have to defend two divergent sides of a steep hill. In the back, is the very steep gully backing onto 100 open acres. Here in this county, predators and wild animals have little fear of humans. It has been illegal to kill cougars in this state for years now and not only have they made a big comeback in terms of numbers, but they have little fear of humans. Coyotes pay no attention to humans as well since they are very smart and know that they are safe as long as you don't have a rifle. We are well protected by our dogs as long as we lock the sheep in the barn (ewes and lambs) and the night fold (older sheep)at dusk. The barn and the night fold are within 25 -30 feet from the house on the top of the ridge. We don't dare leave them out at night or the coyotes will kill them. We lost 2 lambs last summer which is why we are getting another puppy. By the time she is 12-18 months old, she will be a working deterrent to the predators. While she would have a problem by herself, with the backing and training of the older dogs she should grown into a wonderful livestock guardian. Her bloodlines are the same as the older dogs we have and they are terrific guardians, as well as family pets. Hopefully, 3 dogs will hold the fort for a while, until Rika reaches 9-10 yrs then we will be adding a 4th dog in preparation for her retirement. They can live until 12 or so, but they never lose their heart and courage, so will not give up protecting even in old age. Adding additional younger dogs is the only way to keep the old dogs safe. Anatolians are a difficult breed though. We could run several male or female Pyrs together, but it is very difficult to keep mature Anatolian males or females of the same sex that are the same age unless they are in different pastures. That is why we add a new puppy when the older dogs are at specific ages. The older dogs will accept a juvenile, raise it and help train it where they would try to kill an adult Anatolian. Cross fencing our steep acres is too costly. Besides we like to invite our guardians inside at night for family time. We could switch them off, but this is the way we have chosen. They are fabulous with our grandchildren.

How large are your foxes? Here the coyotes can be anything to a small one the size of an English fox - say 35-45 lbs. up to large ones that range around 50-60 lbs. We do not have any wolves here although there are packs taking up residence in northern California. Wolves can be well over 100 lbs. and are the most dangerous predator to sheep, goats, and cattle, since they hunt in a pack and are very competent planners when staging a hunt and kill. Cougars move through the neighborhoods, but usually will move on when faced by the warnings of our large dogs and the fact that our sheep are locked up at night.

 

[The Old Ram-Australia]

G'day, sorry about the slow reply. Ridgetop..Our foxes are the English Red Fox and they take mainly very young lambs.We do have problems with "lost " hunting dogs from time to time as they get hungry and a sheep or lamb is an easy meal.While not a problem in our district wild dogs or Dingos especially now that the population has x bred with domestic breeds of dog present "huge" problems for some farmers.Imagine if you can a Dingo x with the skill of a Kelpie,the speed of a Greyhound and the size of a small Mastiff along with the cunning of the original Dingo.

As an aside,yesterday we sold some lambs at the regional stock sale ,it was a tough day both sales wise and the weather.In was 43 c by midday and there were 27000 head on offer.Jenny and I retreated to the cafe on site to escape the heat and while there I struck up a conversation with 2 old farmers about my age and naturally the conversation turned to the weather and the recent rain ,both farmers had had about the same as us but one had a little less than us his result was that all of the flood-ways on his boundary had been washed away along with most of his topsoil and nutrient load and for his 6 ins of rain he was left with "no grass'" and the prospect of hand feeding until the Fall break.I must confess that I was not "game" to show him the results of the rain on our place as I felt he was depressed enough as it was ,but it sure made me appreciate the work we have done on our place over the years....T.O.R.

 

[Baymule]

Those swales work. They hold back the rain, letting it soak in and replenishing your pastures. Yes, all your hard work is paying off.

 

[Ridgetop]

I imagine if he has no grass, will he be cutting back his breeding stock to what he can carry? With no topsoil, how will he be able to plant or seed pasture. Do you seed pasture there? I am glad that you had your berms in place to avoid erosion.

We have been in a drought for years, but have had a few days of rain over the past month. Then, starting on Saturday night, we got 3 large northern storms drop lots of snow and rain on us. We are grateful for the snow, several feet in the mountains, since we depend on the snowpack for our water. We have not had much forage (you can't call what we have here grass) for several years and the sheep take it to bare ground. This is why we have them since we are in severe brush fire country. It looks like we may end up with a good forage year after all with all the rain. This makes me happy since it will help the lambs gain better, and cost us less in feed. Weighing lambs tomorrow. Hope to see good gains. I am considering adding in some lamb grower and mixing it in with the barleycorn if the ADG is not up to what I want. Time to start turning them out in the field when we get back from our Idaho trip.

 

[The Old Ram-Australia]

To answer your question Ridgetop,i did not press the conversation any further.In all our years on various farms we have never sown grass rather we endevour to increase what we have existing at the time and manage to former ones to regenerate from existing seed banks.

These two photos illustrate how resilient our paddocks have become over time,the first one was a very "dry spell" some years ago.Last spring when we were hand feeding hay every day to the new flock for about 10 weeks it had become quite "rundown" again,but the recent rain has produced the conditions in the paddock now.......T.O.R.

 

[Baymule]

Wow! HUGE difference!