Tell me abou tthe paint gene

[crazyland]

I don't know much about horse in general. Learning as I go.
But the neighbor has some and I get one of the fillies.
But I was wondering about the paint gene.
If there is no big splotches to scream paint at you what besides breeding and eye color are there to say paint versus just socks and blaze?

For instance my filly has 4 white socks but in the socks she has spots. Is she hiding paint? Or just a brown horse with socks and a tiny spot on her forehead.
We don't know her lines as she was a rescue. Going to love her anyways. But it has me curious.

 

[haviris]

First, it's pinto, not Paint. And spots in the socks do not mean pinto, however how tall the socks are may. Post a pic and that will help!

Tobiano is dominate, so if she is we should be able to tell by looking, overo is alittle more difficult, for one thing there are different types of overo, AND a completely solid horse may actually be hiding an overo pattern. Some you can test for (like Frame) some you can't yet.

 

[michickenwrangler]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the horse has to have a min. of 4 sq. inches of white on the body, above the knees and not on the face, to count as a pinto.

Because of the "requirement" more people are breeding for sabino Arabians, a breed that people used to believe could not be pintos. Now genetic testing has shown that these horses are indeed purebred.

Horses with pinto or Paint parents who do not have the white requirements can be registered as breeding stock and then bred to colorful mates to make pintos.

 

[patandchickens]

But I was wondering about the paint gene.
If there is no big splotches to scream paint at you what besides breeding and eye color are there to say paint versus just socks and blaze? For instance my filly has 4 white socks but in the socks she has spots. Is she hiding paint? Or just a brown horse with socks and a tiny spot on her forehead.

There are two issues here. One is the registration issue, which michickenwrangler alludes to. But I think what you're asking about is the GENETIC issue.

There is more than one gene for being particolored. Different ones act somewhat differently. Some can be virtually hidden in some cases, although socks that go up past the knee or a *lot* of white on the face sometimes reflect a hidden 'color' gene (although, sometimes they do not.) Bottom line, you cannot tell FOR SURE whether a solid-with-chrome horse is carrying any of the 'color' genes just by looking at it.

Spots within socks do NOT AT ALL suggest 'color' genes, however -- they are quite common on conventional plain-vanilla solid-colored horses. So I am willing to bet a lot that your horse is, as you say, just a plain brown horse with socks and a tiny star.

Please, please, have someone supervising you every day when you are working with this horse, if you are relatively new to horses. Young and/or poorly trained horses are SOOOOO not a good idea for a beginner to own, and it is not so much YOU I'm concerned about here (I know you can make your own decisions ) it is the HORSE. Handling horses is not something you can learn a) from a book, b) from videos, or c) learn-as-you-go. And you can mess up a horse's mind real quick or cause permanent physical injury, despite the best intentions.

Best of luck, please be cautious and take advantage of lots of help from your neighbor who presumably is reasonably experienced,

Pat

 

[crazyland]

yes, Just interested in the genetic aspect.

The neighbor has been around horses all his life. But I wouldn't trust him to fully train my filly. He has the old school attitude of beating a horse into submission and also flipping them over.

I live in a horse community so lack of experience around me is not lacking. The only problem is they are mostly English riders so I have to find some good western.

I will get a picture later.
She is getting used to picking up her feet for me. Tomorrow the farrier comes out to start and fix her feet. She is very laid back and turning into a real sweatheart. Following us around as we clean the pasture coming to the fence to see what we are doing.

 

[ducks4you]

Horses with pinto or Paint parents who do not have the white requirements can be registered as breeding stock and then bred to colorful mates to make pintos.

True. I've owned 2 of them, a gelding, and my mare (she's my Avatar.) My mare ("Warrens Cindy") indicates paint because she has one blue eye, and her blaze is close to piebald, AND, therefore, she is a registered "Spotted Mountain Horse," the paint branch of Kentucky Mountain Horses. If she was 1/2 QH she would have been registered as paint breeding stock--it can get REALLY confusing. The man who bred her dam was disappointed that "Warrens Cindy" didn't have splotches of white, so he sold her as a yearling. The man I bought her from bred her four times. He said that she threw paint 3/4 times and one foal was paint with 2 blue eyes. Blue eyes aren't necessary for a paint or a pinto, but with so much white, it often happens. BTW, please realize that the skin under the white is pink, and the skin under ANY color on your horse is dark. Therefore, your horse with pink skin in prone to sunburn.
The EXCEPTION to this is a "grey" horse, who has dark skin with a white or whitish coat. Same with palomino, dark skin, pale coat. A "white" horse has pink skin, pale coat. Look to the color of the muzzle to indicate skin color.
One more thing, please don't buy JUST for color. AND, if you think that your fancy-spotted paint will make you stand out in the show ring, you'll find a bunch of other show-people have the same idea--classes now have a sea of paints--the solid colored horses are standing out!!
If I was buying for color to stand out, I'd look for liver chestnut, blood bay or blue roan!!

 

[patandchickens]

The neighbor has been around horses all his life. But I wouldn't trust him to fully train my filly. He has the old school attitude of beating a horse into submission and also flipping them over.

I live in a horse community so lack of experience around me is not lacking. The only problem is they are mostly English riders so I have to find some good western.

English is FINE, what you need is help with horse-handling skills and horse-behavior-reading skills and body-language skills, which a good English style horseman is going to be just as good at as a good Western style horseman. We're not talking equitation here , just basic universal horsemanship.

Please be really, really careful, maybe take some lessons (even English ones, if need be), get someone to come and help you on a regular basis whether you think you need it or not. By the time you realize a problem is developing it is already real tough for a novice to solve, or even just to prevent from becoming permanent and serious.

Good luck,

Pat

 

[Bunnylady]

There's a saying among horsepeople, :"Green plus green equals black and blue," which sounds to me like what Pat is worrying about!

On the subject of Pintos . . . .

In order to be a Paint, a horse has to have either Thoroughbred or Quarter Horse in its background, a horse with white in addition to another color is a pinto.

There are several genes that can put white on a horse:

Tobiano - usually gets you an animal with the dark color on the flank/rump area, on the chest, and on the head. There is usually some white on the back, often on the neck and belly.

Frame (also called Lethal White Overo) - classic Frames have dark along the spine, and on the belly, with the white "framed" by the dark coloring. Extreme examples may not have any white on the body, just on the face.

Splash - Usually has white on the face and/or legs, may have some on the belly as though the horse had been splashed (upward) with white paint. Splash often causes very lopsided blazes. Blue eyes are often caused by the Splash gene, some think Frame and maybe even Sabino can cause blue eyes, too.

Sabino - there are several genes that are lumped together and called Sabino. Sabino often just puts white on the face and feet, most of the horses that only have white there are carrying one of the Sabino genes. Balanced, right-in-the-middle-of-the-face stars and blazes are usually caused by a sabino gene. At least one sabino gene can cause roaning, sometimes just in one or more patches, sometimes the whole horse will be roaned. The most extreme expression is called a "Maximum White Sabino," such an animal can be almost entirely white.

Figuring out which of the pinto genes a horse is carrying can be crazy-making, as some of them can resemble each other, and a lot of horses are carrying more than one! There are genetic tests for a few of them, which can be done if you are just curious to find out what's there. Any horse that is being considered for breeding probably should be tested for Frame (LWO), because getting that gene from both parents will kill the foal.

For instance my filly has 4 white socks but in the socks she has spots. Is she hiding paint? Or just a brown horse with socks and a tiny spot on her forehead.

Your filly is most likely carrying one of the Sabino genes. I've heard those sorts of spots called "ermine spots," they are typical of Sabino.

 

[michickenwrangler]

Horses with pinto or Paint parents who do not have the white requirements can be registered as breeding stock and then bred to colorful mates to make pintos.

One more thing, please don't buy JUST for color. AND, if you think that your fancy-spotted paint will make you stand out in the show ring, you'll find a bunch of other show-people have the same idea--classes now have a sea of paints--the solid colored horses are standing out!!
If I was buying for color to stand out, I'd look for liver chestnut, blood bay or blue roan!!

Everyone in my area has THAT idea, lol

The classes at the county fair are so full of chestnut overo Paints (and about half of those all came from the same farm) that it might as well be a Paint show.

Unfortunately, our judge that we get every year is very prejudiced in favor of Paints. Two years ago when I took my little bay Arab into an 6 yr old+ Mare Halter class, only about 5 horses out of a class of 15 weren't Paints. When the judge short-listed the class, the 5 solid horses didn't make the cut.

Last 3 years, the 1st and 2nd place winner in the color class have won Grand and Reserve Champion.

 

[crazyland]

That really is to bad about the judge being so biased. Makes you not want to participate.

Interesting about the variations. Will do more research on them.

Not worried about the black or blue or even the purple.
I know you are concerned for the welfare of the filly. But we will have a trainer soon besides my neighbor and my basic knowledge.

I figure we can maybe try and set my older daughter up with 4H and then she can learn along with me. And she will have her own horse to ride in a couple of years when she is ready to move beyond basic horse care.

This is Prairie. You can see a small smudge of white on her forehead in the second picture. The last picture is her half sister Jasmine that the neighbors took in.