The Education of Ben

[Beekissed]

I don't know, but for me, telling him no or not allowing him to greet me like that would be like walking up to your spouse and when they try to hug/kiss you, saying no and turning them away. It's NOT like a typical pet dog giving a paw to be cute or demanding attention. It's conveying THEIR affection to and for us. Now, you can say "there's a time and place for that sort of thing," But the dog is NOT human, and doesn't understand that, they love us 100%, 24/7, and who would want it any other way?

Well....I would. I'm a sucker for humanizing animals as much as the next person...I think it's a trap we all fall into, but as you say..the dog is NOT HUMAN, so what we interpret as affection or an affectionate greeting~simply because humans touch with their hands~ could mean something altogether different to them. Who's to say?

To turn and see it from another perspective...it would be like a child that walks up and sniffs a person's butt when they arrive and trying to explain it away as a friendly greeting. From a stranger's eyes it would be totally inappropriate, but we may see it as merely being affectionate.

It makes as much sense to me to "doganize" a child as it does to humanize a puppy.

In the dog world placing a paw on the neck or back of another pack member can mean a dominance move during play or during the tussles they have to decide which dog is dominant over another. It can be used by a mother to subdue a pup that is getting too rambunctious in play or to get its attention for another purpose.

To me, the paw offered in friendliness to a human is much like licking a person's face~one of the things that dogs do to communicate pleasure or acceptance of another...but not always desirable to humans. We are NOT DOGS as much as they are NOT HUMANS, so those boundaries need to be established early on. There is a time and a place for those kinds of things and a pup can learn those times much like they can learn anything else. I can't imagine the LGD breeds are so otherworldly from the rest of the canine world that they can't learn proper behavior when its expected, even if it goes against their natural instinct.

If I can expect a bird dog to not put his mouth on my birds and a herding dog to not herd the birds, I think it's reasonable to expect a LGD to not put his paw on humans in greeting.

For me, the paw in greeting just isn't necessary and affection can be shown in a hundred other ways that are acceptable and safe.

 

[Latestarter]

<shrug> Wishing you success in your endeavors.

 

[Beekissed]

Thank you! I expect he'll turn out just fine.

 

[babsbag]

All I can say is that these dogs are different. Commands are sometimes followed, and sometimes that are a suggestion and it isn't because they are being stubborn, sometimes they just know better than I do.

They are such mellow dogs too that I find that teaching things like sit and wait and all those other commands my border collies know is pretty much just a waste as they don't jump for their food or crowd me at the gate. They are just there; with a doggie smile.

But mine do live with the goats 24/7 and I know that isn't what Ben will be doing...everyone certainly raises dogs differently, just like we do kids. My way isn't the only way, but it sure was easy not to fret over learning all those commands.

 

[Beekissed]

Oh, he doesn't have many commands to learn, just the basics. It's not complicated at all and he doesn't have to perform all the time, but when he needs to know them, they'll be in his data base...and he's learning them! Whether he is consistent or not in remembering them will be up to him and, of course, to me and how often I've reinforced them.

I don't fret. It's not in my wheelhouse. The things I'm teaching Ben will make his life here easier and less confusing. He's merely expected to guard his territory and all things in it from predators, to greet familiar humans in a calm and polite manner, don't poop in the yard, stay in his boundary and be a companion for Jake...most of that will come natural to him as he ages, no doubt. Until then I'm just letting him know what's expected of him....it's all pretty simple when it comes down to it.

I think a little basic training is better for him than turning him loose with a kiss for luck and then expecting him to somehow know what his job here is~I've seen that time and again with LGDs~then rehoming him~or shooting him~ when he can't figure it out.

It's not difficult for me either, as I have more time on my hands now that the kids are grown and gone and don't mind working with him. I like dogs and they tend to like me right back and this one's no different.

 

[Beekissed]

No poops in the yard, no eggs stolen from the coop for several days now. No paws up on the leg when I didn't pay him attention right away, no crossing of his boundary, no attempt to enter the coop at feeding time, comes each time he is called, and a very quick lie down at his own feeding time...he didn't even need a verbal cue or hand signal to do it today. Ben had a good day, with only one minor infraction, but he responded quickly to the correction.

For all that good behavior he got chicken heads and feet , which he chewed a couple of times before swallowing down. Monday he will have more of the same.

Gentle Ben is coming along as I had hoped. Jake is stepping back and giving him place and a position over his own, which is a little sad for me to see when the pup snatches food right out of Jake's mouth, but seems to suit Jake very well...he could put the pup in his place real quick if he wished to do so. He's always been a sidekick and loves being one.

This pup seems like he will be a good leader for Jake, when he matures, while also giving me a place of authority quite easily...there seems to be no struggle for control, he follows me so closely that I can feel his little whiskers on the back of my leg. Feels kinda funny.

I think Ben is finding his place here and fitting himself into the matrix quite well. His naturally calm and confident demeanor is just what I've been looking for in a companion and work partner for Jake. Since we lost Lucy, he's had no strong partner and I think he's really missed that. Jake is a servant at heart and loves to serve others, so he will be going into his old age with new purpose and a familiar roll to fill, one to which he is accustomed and feels comfortable.

 

[goatgurl]

so glad you and ben had a good day. was thinking about your post from yesterday and i think we all expect out lgd's to have manners and do what is expected of them. Katie does a good sit, down, leave it, never jumps on people and comes when she is called. all that said what i will admit is that is for the most part. sometimes she isn't so good at it but i know that these dogs have the ability to think for themselves and I'm glad they do. as far as the pooing goes, she goes way out in the pasture, always has but if she wanted to poo in a path that i take she and i would have issues. i don't think that is unreasonable.

 

[Beekissed]

I haven't met a GP yet that I didn't like...they all seem to have a naturally calm, confident and friendly manner. They also seem to be naturally intelligent. I've only seen a few that had bad habits~chasing/biting livestock or wandering away from the herd~ and those were usually the dogs no one had ever worked with at all...just sent them out in the pasture as pups and expected them to "get it", like they had read about.

For some reason these people blamed the dogs. That irks me a good bit. If they had tried their hardest to give them some direction and what they expected of them and they STILL didn't "get it", then I could see where they might think it's the dog's problem.

Even dogs that are natural hunters and retrievers need direction if they are going to perform those jobs well...same with shepherds. Oh, they can come equipped with a natural instinct for the job and there may be some really good shepherds out there that can herd without direction or training of any kind, but I'd say they are a rare commodity...most still need to look to the human for direction on just where to herd those animals and which animals to herd or they won't be winning any trials any time soon. Well...except Pig, that is.

 

[babsbag]

You are so right about the dogs that are thrown into the field and just expected to know what to do. I was lucky, both of mine are naturals with the goats but not with the chickens; I worked long and hard to break that habit. I have raised a few litters of LGDs and so many people think they will just take a 10-12 wk puppy home and turn it loose with no regard for its safety from the goats or for the goats' safety. I always spend a lot of time educating the new owners on what to expect, some people change their minds, and that is ok. Another irk is when they think that it is a really good idea to just throw the pup in with baby goats, after all, they can grow up together...another really bad idea.

Every other breed is trained to do a job, and people expect that, why they think these dogs need no guidance is beyond me. Perhaps if a pup stayed with its mother for a year it might work, but my female pretty much ignores that part of her job. I have never once seen her correct a pup for chasing chickens or chasing a kid; she lets "grandma ME" do the correcting.

Glad that Ben had a good day; sounds like he is a quick learner.

 

[Beekissed]

My GP mix corrected Jake as a pup when he got too rough with the kittens...and it worked! She also stood ready to correct the young cats around the chicks, but they noticed her stance and backed off and we never had a problem at all with those cats in regards to the chicks.

She was a fine stock dog but she would look on in disgust when Jake and the sheep played tag each evening. It was clear she felt it was beneath her to play with sheep, but she would come to the house and bark when one of the ewes was lambing and stand by protectively during the lambing.

Ben is most definitely learning! This morning he sat calmly as I fed Jake and while I got out his food...then I waited. He sat and looked at me a few minutes, so I quietly cleared my throat "Ahem!" and he quickly laid down to wait for his food. LOVE how quickly he is catching on! Each time he does a correct action, he gets an immediate reward and each step of the "wait calmly for your food" training is progressive. He has moved to sitting calmly while I scoop it up, then to sitting calmly while I scoop it and place it in the bowl, then lying down before he receives the food, then lying down with a small pause...so on and so forth. Each day he gets more and more near the "calm wait in a relaxed posture". And all of this with little need for cues or correction...if I just wait on him to comply or move to the next step, he figures out what I'm waiting for and he does it. Most of what he's learned in all of that he got from watching Jake.

I know folks are wondering why in the world one would expect the dogs to learn to wait for their food and be calm while they do so, but it all has a purpose. It builds trust in me as the provider of their food, it lessens tendencies towards food aggression~to other dogs and humans alike(important when chickens are dabbing in to sneak their food or little toddlers are stumbling around the feeding area), and it helps them "earn" the food, instead of just being fed. They tend to eat more slowly when taught to wait. It doesn't hurt them a bit to wait and be calm and it makes feeding time more pleasurable for all of us.

They don't always have to lie down to get their food as time goes along, but we are in training mode now so it's done each day at the present. Later on I will just expect him to sit or stand back~ calmly~ until I put the food down. If there are little ones around, they will have to lie down calmly for the food, so that's why it's part of this training. Aliza likes to go with me to feed the dogs, so it's all necessary in the broad scheme of things.