misfitmorgan
Herd Master
This conversation started in another thread so I am moving it over here with it associated posts.
Thoughts on Doberman's
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misfitmorgan
Herd Master
That's something we do with our doberman's. We teach them ALL food of any kind is our food not theirs. We can give the food, take the food, move the food, hold our hand in the dishes, pick up the food, open their mouths and take the food back out, etc. The food never belongs to them so they never have a need to guard it. We train them to the point that if food falls on the floor, they dont even move....because it is not "up for grabs" the human just misplaced it for a minute but it still belongs to the human. You can set your dinner plate on the floor, and it wont be touched unless given permission. They do zero begging and will not even face a human while the human eats.
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misfitmorgan
Herd Master
BeeKissed Response:
And that's how it's supposed to be done!!!! I so wish other people took the time to train their dogs in such a way.....so many dogs would not wind up in shelters if people would just train them to have proper manners, to be obedient to their owners, to respect humans and boundaries set forth by the humans.
I've been wondering about Dobermans....I never see any in my area anymore. They used to be the fad dog of the 70s and into the 80s and I'm glad they no longer are, but it also makes them more scarce to be found now that they are out of favor. I'd love to see if I could train one to be my general farm dog and possibly a low key herding dog. I know they have herding genetics in their background, as well as hunting genetics....both things I need but in a very intelligent breed and I've found most Dobies to be incredibly intelligent. I think they could be adequately trained off chickens, be a good and loyal family dog and also keep small preds from getting the chickens.
Maybe not a typical choice for a farm dog but I still wonder if it would be a good fit. What are your thoughts on it? Do they tend to be a "one person dog" like GSDs, so that I would have to worry about them around my grandkids or fighting with the LGDs for my attention? Would they enjoy that kind of job, you think?
And that's how it's supposed to be done!!!! I so wish other people took the time to train their dogs in such a way.....so many dogs would not wind up in shelters if people would just train them to have proper manners, to be obedient to their owners, to respect humans and boundaries set forth by the humans.
I've been wondering about Dobermans....I never see any in my area anymore. They used to be the fad dog of the 70s and into the 80s and I'm glad they no longer are, but it also makes them more scarce to be found now that they are out of favor. I'd love to see if I could train one to be my general farm dog and possibly a low key herding dog. I know they have herding genetics in their background, as well as hunting genetics....both things I need but in a very intelligent breed and I've found most Dobies to be incredibly intelligent. I think they could be adequately trained off chickens, be a good and loyal family dog and also keep small preds from getting the chickens.
Maybe not a typical choice for a farm dog but I still wonder if it would be a good fit. What are your thoughts on it? Do they tend to be a "one person dog" like GSDs, so that I would have to worry about them around my grandkids or fighting with the LGDs for my attention? Would they enjoy that kind of job, you think?
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misfitmorgan
Herd Master
Doberman's fell out of favor because they attack people. It is a fact and we are 100% aware of it which is why we train our dogs the way we do. Dobermans are pretty misunderstood.
You hear everyone say LGDs are a whole different kind of dog.....Dobie's are too. LGDs and Dobies are the smartest dogs I have ever owned, worked with or been around. They are the easiest dogs ive found to house break, to train obedience commands to, just easy to work with.
The number one personality trait of a dobie is in my opinion loyalty. They are literally loyal to death to their humans/family. Dobie's are used pretty often as police dogs because of this trait the downside is dobie's can not easily be transferred between officers if the need arises.
Dobie's are smart on a different level they will try to work out more efficient ways to do anything asked of them, beyond what you taught them. You give them a command and they literally think about it for a second before doing it. They are not thinking about how to not do the thing asked they are thinking if there is a better way to accomplish the end goal. If your routine is to always ask your dog to sit and then lay down, the dobie will skip sitting when you ask and just lay down because that is the end goal. We were training our dobie to shake paws, we would ask him to sit then immediately after to shake, he decided to take out the middle man and when we said sit to just offer his paw instead, again get to the end goal faster and more efficiently. If you trained a dobie to take a certain path to some destination every single day, unlike many other breeds they will decide on their own to try to find a quicker way to the end location vs the path you taught them. We taught our dogs to come to our side backdoor when we moved into our new house, after about 3 days they evaluated the situation and decided it would be faster and more direct to come to the back sliding glass door to be let in. They were right as the side back door is separated from our house by a mud room and took longer for us to get to it to left them in.
The problem with dobies is the loyalty and their ability to sense peoples actions. If a dobie does not like someone there is a reason for it. Likewise people will say....the dobie attacked them and they were not even doing anything.....yet. Dobie's attack so much because of the ability to sense people's actions and intentions and their built in loyalty along with their need to protect. They were literally bred to protect their humans. They do not differentiate an aggressive adult from an aggressive child, they see this thing(person, animal, whatever) is hurting my humans and attack the thing doing the hurting. It makes perfect sense to the dog and he is doing nothing wrong nevermind one kid hitting another kid because they got mad is not a valid reason for attacking them.
Thankfully due to dobies being so smart if you train them properly they will never attack anything without being told to. All of our dobie's are trained to attack on command and ONLY on command. They are not to touch or show any form of aggressive to anyone or anything unless given their attack command. Even after given the command they will pause for a second to think about the best way to attack the thing. We have thus far never had a dog attack anyone or anything and never needed to use an attack command. They are trained even if a thing hurts them they are not to attack it. DH used to train Dobermans for police dogs, watch video of doberman police dog training, this is the training our dobie's get starting as puppies at 8 weeks old. We no longer breed or sell dobie's DH used too.
Dobie's were not made to be hunting dogs. Dobie's were bred to be loyal guard dogs, the fact they are sight hounds came secondary. Their intelligence makes them able to perform any job a person cares to train them to do. In our experience with dobie's there are two main personalities. The highly energetic playful type and the more toned down straight to business not very playful type. We have owned both.
As far as being around children in general I have zero fear of any child around our dogs, I know their training. I have watched them with a 2yr old walking on them, pulling on their ears, poking their eyes, biting them, hanging off of them, sitting on them, zero reaction came from our dogs other then looking at the child and trying to figure out why it was doing the things it was doing. That is part of our training, they are not to react to pain or discomfort, humans can touch them anyplace on their body in any fashion and they are not to protest in any fashion and certainly never to show aggression. To the point when we first got our kitten I watched the kitten jump up while playing and hang off our dobie's face with it claws while the kitten chewed on the dobie's top lip, the dobie's did nothing more then stand there and wait for the kitten to let go.
Another very important part of training a dobie is confidence, the dog has to have confidence in everything it does. There is no room for being uncertain or scared of anything. An uncertain, unconfident, scared dog is a dangerous dog in any breed.
We condition for noise as well, all noises, they are not be afraid of noises. Guns, fireworks, thunder, chainsaws, 4-wheelers, cars, semi's, tractors, yelling, etc. Our dobie's are taken to the fireworks shows, 4-h auction and truck pulls every year, they sleep through them.
Dobie's do not fight for attention unless you train them too. They understand when it is time for them to get attention and when it is not. When it is time to be excited and when it is not. We train our dobie's with the way we pet them on what the appropriate attitude is. Slow firm reassuring pets, its time to be calm there is nothing to be excited or worried about right now and they should just lay down and relax. Fast light pets its time to be excited, to play and to run around.
So my very long winded response is yes I think a dobie could work for your situation, with proper training. If you are the type of person who wants to only train with positive rewards, dont get a dobie. I do not personally feel a dobie can be reliably trained with only a positive rewards system. They need to know you are the alpha in all things and they are never to challenge that for any reason, their place in the pack and their job role is very secure and very well understood, they have nothing to question. We do not abuse our dogs, and I am not suggesting anyone else does. Training a dog to accept pain in certain circumstances is a very different thing then just beating up a dog. Our dogs are trained with a combination system that does include positive rewards, it is simply not the only means of training. Our dobies are highly trained well adjusted well mannered dogs who appear happy and fulfilled with their life. They do not cower to humans or have any other behavior of an abused dog so please no one twist this around to try to say I am telling people to abuse their dogs. If you watch police dog training videos and think the dogs are being abused, any guard breed is not for you esp a dobie.
You hear everyone say LGDs are a whole different kind of dog.....Dobie's are too. LGDs and Dobies are the smartest dogs I have ever owned, worked with or been around. They are the easiest dogs ive found to house break, to train obedience commands to, just easy to work with.
The number one personality trait of a dobie is in my opinion loyalty. They are literally loyal to death to their humans/family. Dobie's are used pretty often as police dogs because of this trait the downside is dobie's can not easily be transferred between officers if the need arises.
Dobie's are smart on a different level they will try to work out more efficient ways to do anything asked of them, beyond what you taught them. You give them a command and they literally think about it for a second before doing it. They are not thinking about how to not do the thing asked they are thinking if there is a better way to accomplish the end goal. If your routine is to always ask your dog to sit and then lay down, the dobie will skip sitting when you ask and just lay down because that is the end goal. We were training our dobie to shake paws, we would ask him to sit then immediately after to shake, he decided to take out the middle man and when we said sit to just offer his paw instead, again get to the end goal faster and more efficiently. If you trained a dobie to take a certain path to some destination every single day, unlike many other breeds they will decide on their own to try to find a quicker way to the end location vs the path you taught them. We taught our dogs to come to our side backdoor when we moved into our new house, after about 3 days they evaluated the situation and decided it would be faster and more direct to come to the back sliding glass door to be let in. They were right as the side back door is separated from our house by a mud room and took longer for us to get to it to left them in.
The problem with dobies is the loyalty and their ability to sense peoples actions. If a dobie does not like someone there is a reason for it. Likewise people will say....the dobie attacked them and they were not even doing anything.....yet. Dobie's attack so much because of the ability to sense people's actions and intentions and their built in loyalty along with their need to protect. They were literally bred to protect their humans. They do not differentiate an aggressive adult from an aggressive child, they see this thing(person, animal, whatever) is hurting my humans and attack the thing doing the hurting. It makes perfect sense to the dog and he is doing nothing wrong nevermind one kid hitting another kid because they got mad is not a valid reason for attacking them.
Thankfully due to dobies being so smart if you train them properly they will never attack anything without being told to. All of our dobie's are trained to attack on command and ONLY on command. They are not to touch or show any form of aggressive to anyone or anything unless given their attack command. Even after given the command they will pause for a second to think about the best way to attack the thing. We have thus far never had a dog attack anyone or anything and never needed to use an attack command. They are trained even if a thing hurts them they are not to attack it. DH used to train Dobermans for police dogs, watch video of doberman police dog training, this is the training our dobie's get starting as puppies at 8 weeks old. We no longer breed or sell dobie's DH used too.
Dobie's were not made to be hunting dogs. Dobie's were bred to be loyal guard dogs, the fact they are sight hounds came secondary. Their intelligence makes them able to perform any job a person cares to train them to do. In our experience with dobie's there are two main personalities. The highly energetic playful type and the more toned down straight to business not very playful type. We have owned both.
As far as being around children in general I have zero fear of any child around our dogs, I know their training. I have watched them with a 2yr old walking on them, pulling on their ears, poking their eyes, biting them, hanging off of them, sitting on them, zero reaction came from our dogs other then looking at the child and trying to figure out why it was doing the things it was doing. That is part of our training, they are not to react to pain or discomfort, humans can touch them anyplace on their body in any fashion and they are not to protest in any fashion and certainly never to show aggression. To the point when we first got our kitten I watched the kitten jump up while playing and hang off our dobie's face with it claws while the kitten chewed on the dobie's top lip, the dobie's did nothing more then stand there and wait for the kitten to let go.
Another very important part of training a dobie is confidence, the dog has to have confidence in everything it does. There is no room for being uncertain or scared of anything. An uncertain, unconfident, scared dog is a dangerous dog in any breed.
We condition for noise as well, all noises, they are not be afraid of noises. Guns, fireworks, thunder, chainsaws, 4-wheelers, cars, semi's, tractors, yelling, etc. Our dobie's are taken to the fireworks shows, 4-h auction and truck pulls every year, they sleep through them.
Dobie's do not fight for attention unless you train them too. They understand when it is time for them to get attention and when it is not. When it is time to be excited and when it is not. We train our dobie's with the way we pet them on what the appropriate attitude is. Slow firm reassuring pets, its time to be calm there is nothing to be excited or worried about right now and they should just lay down and relax. Fast light pets its time to be excited, to play and to run around.
So my very long winded response is yes I think a dobie could work for your situation, with proper training. If you are the type of person who wants to only train with positive rewards, dont get a dobie. I do not personally feel a dobie can be reliably trained with only a positive rewards system. They need to know you are the alpha in all things and they are never to challenge that for any reason, their place in the pack and their job role is very secure and very well understood, they have nothing to question. We do not abuse our dogs, and I am not suggesting anyone else does. Training a dog to accept pain in certain circumstances is a very different thing then just beating up a dog. Our dogs are trained with a combination system that does include positive rewards, it is simply not the only means of training. Our dobies are highly trained well adjusted well mannered dogs who appear happy and fulfilled with their life. They do not cower to humans or have any other behavior of an abused dog so please no one twist this around to try to say I am telling people to abuse their dogs. If you watch police dog training videos and think the dogs are being abused, any guard breed is not for you esp a dobie.
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Baymule
Herd Master
That is the best summary of a Dobie I’ve ever read. I’ve had two, they were great dogs,
Simpleterrier
True BYH Addict
There were a few guys who had dobis for farm dogs they are good dogs.
Only thing I gotta add is u said u had to train your dobi to do things if u would have gotten an airedale it would have been born knowing it
Only thing I gotta add is u said u had to train your dobi to do things if u would have gotten an airedale it would have been born knowing it
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misfitmorgan
Herd Master
Thank you
Dobie's figure out a lot on their own, you dont have to train them to do everything which is nice. Oddly we have never had to train a dobie not to jump on people, they just seem to know not too. A good majority of the training is just to ensure things are done the way we want them vs how the dobie figures out how to do it. Training also means we can depend on the reaction and know the dobie knows exactly what we want so there is no questions for them.There were a few guys who had dobis for farm dogs they are good dogs.
Only thing I gotta add is u said u had to train your dobi to do things if u would have gotten an airedale it would have been born knowing it
secuono
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I've had two.
First was neurotic, didn't like men or smokers. Smart as heck, but had serious separation issues, rarely calmed down. He taught himself how to open sliding doors and his crate. He arrived already toilet trained, breeder didn't train him. I taught him tons of hand/body cues and voice cues, to turn on lights, bite with back teeth for tug, to carry things very gently, he knew several toys by name/color. There's more, but I can't remember. For as smart as he was, walking nicely on a leash was an impossibility for him. Thought all cavies were his babies and would count them before bed. His fabric chewing obsession, mixed with a little plastic & his inability to stay calm, started his demise. Shyt vets didn't help any.
Second one was just a normal, calm, good dog. But my sheep take priority and when he vanished around the corner to maul an ewe, that was the end. He left to live with an avid hiker. It was one of those literal "here one second, gone the next". By the time I got to the other side of the barn to search for him there, the damage was done. He had no problems before then, and compared to my first, he loved everyone. Didn't own him long enough to tell you much more about him.
Wouldn't say they are people attackers nor bred to do anything in particular. They have been bred to look differently now-a-days, like many pet species, so I probably won't own one again. At least, not as long as I have sheep.
First was neurotic, didn't like men or smokers. Smart as heck, but had serious separation issues, rarely calmed down. He taught himself how to open sliding doors and his crate. He arrived already toilet trained, breeder didn't train him. I taught him tons of hand/body cues and voice cues, to turn on lights, bite with back teeth for tug, to carry things very gently, he knew several toys by name/color. There's more, but I can't remember. For as smart as he was, walking nicely on a leash was an impossibility for him. Thought all cavies were his babies and would count them before bed. His fabric chewing obsession, mixed with a little plastic & his inability to stay calm, started his demise. Shyt vets didn't help any.
Second one was just a normal, calm, good dog. But my sheep take priority and when he vanished around the corner to maul an ewe, that was the end. He left to live with an avid hiker. It was one of those literal "here one second, gone the next". By the time I got to the other side of the barn to search for him there, the damage was done. He had no problems before then, and compared to my first, he loved everyone. Didn't own him long enough to tell you much more about him.
Wouldn't say they are people attackers nor bred to do anything in particular. They have been bred to look differently now-a-days, like many pet species, so I probably won't own one again. At least, not as long as I have sheep.
Beekissed
Herd Master
All good info and feedback! I've found the herding pup I have now simply cannot be broke off chickens...and that's saying a lot. I've broken many pups and full grown dogs off chickens but have tried everything in my arsenal on this one to no avail. He's just too obsessed with their movements and I refuse to lock up my birds over one obsessed dog. He's been living his life on a zip line all winter due to that and that's no way for a dog to exist...even on the zip line he caught two different birds and was trying to pluck them. Good thing he's not good at killing things or they would have been dead.
He will soon be sold to a place where he can work cattle, if all goes well and if it's God's will for him. After that I'll be looking for a dog to protect the chicken flock here in the middle and be an all purpose farm dog....but it sure would be nice to have a dog I could train to mildly move the sheep when needed.
Right now I just don't know what to do, honestly. Might have to go back to a Lab if I can find one...they don't really watch the sky for hawks and such but they make excellent chicken dogs and all around farm dogs.
He will soon be sold to a place where he can work cattle, if all goes well and if it's God's will for him. After that I'll be looking for a dog to protect the chicken flock here in the middle and be an all purpose farm dog....but it sure would be nice to have a dog I could train to mildly move the sheep when needed.
Right now I just don't know what to do, honestly. Might have to go back to a Lab if I can find one...they don't really watch the sky for hawks and such but they make excellent chicken dogs and all around farm dogs.
Simpleterrier
True BYH Addict
@Beekissed look at the airedale.
First one a male I could lock in a chicken coop and go to town and come back all chickens alive and anything else would be dead.
If he thought any animal was gonna hurt u he would step in especially with my wife and kids. He grabbed a steer by the nose that got to close to my wife while feeding. U know steer ran up bucking and kicking and got to close.
Had an old rooster that would flop the kids if they wore an orange coat. After a time or two of getting flopped he started running ahead and catching and holding the rooster down until the kids passed.
He would stay with the wife and kids until I got home then would do a farm check and hunt.
If I got home late my wife would bring him in ( he hated being in the house ) he would grawl at me as I in locked the door even as I talked to him he would come sniff me first and walk stiff legged then he would melt he had to hear smell and see ya to make sure u could come in. Only 3 men myself included petted him in 10 yrs. My dad and good friends he wouldn't let them touch him he would sniff then walk away and lay down he didn't care to be petted by more than the family. He loved kids all kids.
Went for a walk son was in stroller and the dog nextdoor licked his hand and made him cry he stepped in and I had to break it up.
He sadly died one hot day trying to sire his next in line I guess his body was willing but his heart couldn't take it.
First one a male I could lock in a chicken coop and go to town and come back all chickens alive and anything else would be dead.
If he thought any animal was gonna hurt u he would step in especially with my wife and kids. He grabbed a steer by the nose that got to close to my wife while feeding. U know steer ran up bucking and kicking and got to close.
Had an old rooster that would flop the kids if they wore an orange coat. After a time or two of getting flopped he started running ahead and catching and holding the rooster down until the kids passed.
He would stay with the wife and kids until I got home then would do a farm check and hunt.
If I got home late my wife would bring him in ( he hated being in the house ) he would grawl at me as I in locked the door even as I talked to him he would come sniff me first and walk stiff legged then he would melt he had to hear smell and see ya to make sure u could come in. Only 3 men myself included petted him in 10 yrs. My dad and good friends he wouldn't let them touch him he would sniff then walk away and lay down he didn't care to be petted by more than the family. He loved kids all kids.
Went for a walk son was in stroller and the dog nextdoor licked his hand and made him cry he stepped in and I had to break it up.
He sadly died one hot day trying to sire his next in line I guess his body was willing but his heart couldn't take it.
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