VERY skinny doe - updated post 38 - bottlejaw :(

[Bunny-kids]

Thanks Roll,

I looked on here and had seen to use Valbazen at 2-3x recommended -- BUT she's also on the small sideand so thin now, and I don't know her exact weight. I hope it worked out ok. Not quite daylight here and my morning routine goes a LOT smoother if I don't open the goat shed until I can let them out.

She actually looked much better when I got home. Still looked awful, but better than she did at dawn yesterday. Maybe the red cell had perked her up some.

Edited to add: she scarfed SOME grain last night, I don't think she finished it. I also put her back onthe clover while I did my chores and cut some branches from a hackberry tree. She ate leaves for a little while but didn't finish them. Hackberry leaves seem to be the favorite browse of ALL my goats but since the llama loves them too there are no branches in the pasture they can reach.

Anyway, I gave 8mL valbazen, only 12 mL red cell (she really really hates it and I am having to use a syringe), a human-sized dose of a strong good quality liquid multi B (when I read the pkg insert for the injectable B12 it scared me to death - it IS mostly used for anemia in humans tho), probios, and about 18 mL blackstrap molasses (mixed with the Valbazen, B, and red cell - mostly to try and get her to be willing to swallow it).

Her stomach wasn't empty, of course, but I wanted to start right away.

It was too late to check the others' eyelids last evening but I'll look at the rest of them today. Everyone's condition except this one is fair to good and all the lesser ones have been improving. Even the other doe with BIG twins of the same age has put on a little condition.

I'll know in a little while how she's doing.

Thanks again

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

I read the first post and then skimmed- I didn't see where you listed her calcium source? Feeding grain, grass hay, and browse (other than legumes) is a surefire recipe for hypocalcemia. Regardless of the parasite issue, if she isn't getting a calcium rich food source then this milker's metabolic needs are not met and at best she will not do well, at worst you will lose her to hypocalcemia.

I'm also guessing that any vet who suggests worming monthly and rotating wormers has HORSE experience and no GOAT experience. Time to do some reading about parasite management in goats. If you PM me I can send you some resources both for nutrition and parasite management.

 

[elevan]

Yep, deworming on a monthly basis is a recipe for drug resistant worms. When you have a moment and a clear mind you might want to read the Parasite Management article that is linked in my signature below.

 

[Bunny-kids]

Oh, believe me, I have NO intention of following the vet's protocol.

I'm still shaking my head over him challenging me, "Why do you want to know what KIND of worms the goat has? It doesn't matter!"

I am wondering if he really even checked his book and identified what he saw, or just had his assistant call me with a common answer. I have no idea.

I'll tell you what I found this morning. A LOAD of tapeworms, deposited in the corner. I cleaned it all up. Well, I should say that I THINK they are tapeworms. If there is some other worm that infects goats that looks like tapeworms, I could be wrong. I'm going to look that up. I saw long, flat, segmented ribbon-like worms, that broke apart very easily, and the ones I teased out without breaking were about 24" long (guessing). I did take some pics, but they are not that good. I could have missed tiny worms of course, but these things were just so VISIBLE. In the dark of the barn, it looked like whole kernels of corn in the poop (which is less scour-y today but still not pellets), so I scooped the whole thing up and brought it out to see. (I don't feed whole kernel corn, btw).

I'm VERY interested in the mineral/nutritional info. I KNOW something is going on with this girl's minerals, and I thought I was doing the right things to try to straighten her out. Calcium is a huge concern for me, so I'll definitely PM you.

The main pasture I keep the goats on is pretty high in legumes (clover?) during the early spring, but my pregnant/kidded does have been eating it down to nothing. I'm not sure they've left much clover. I do still have large stands in some other places, and I've been giving this doe access for a few days, since she seems to crave it. I put my llama on it at night, and the geese have been eating surprisingly little of it this year. I'd been pulling it for the rabbits so it doesn't go to waste before the weather gets too hot for it.

She does have loose minerals, but I'm not so sure these are a great kind. I've been looking for something else but haven't found anything but these locally.

And I'm not real happy with the vet at ALL. The only good thing about him was that he used to give me whatever I wanted, no questions asked, but I had to do all my own research. Now they are wanting to see the animal, run tests, etc. (which normally I would consider a good thing) except that their advice is pretty much opposite what I would want to do anyway. When I first went in two years ago, they were saying rotate wormers for ALL goats EVERY two months. Now they are saying every month. In another two years, I wonder if they'll be dosing them daily??? Sigh. Thanks for all the local resistant worms, guys.

 

[Bunny-kids]

Oh, and I should have reported on her condition!!!

She's still scary-thin of course, still scouring but not as bad. She DOES have a better appetite, almost cleaned up the grain I gave her this morning, and took the clover I gave her, and went looking for leaves, so I put her back in the pasture where I've tossed the cut branches. I'm glad she's wanting to eat. She's also resisting me much more strongly, so that's something, even if it's harder to move her around.

I don't know if she finished her grain last night or what happened, because someone got her stall door opened and she was out in the passageway with another doe, so I don't know who ate what, but the hay and grain I leave for them at night was all gone.

Hopefully I won't lose her, and I'll try to get on top of the calcium issue, because I am greatly concerned about that. Thanks!

 

[elevan]

Tapeworms are about the only worm you'll actually see in a goats poo...sometimes roundworms but tapeworms would be what you saw.

Now that you're getting rid of the tapes she'll have an easier time putting condition back on.

 

[redtailgal]

tapes will eat up condition on any critter. Glad you got those things out!

In other critters (and I am pretty sure it would be the same with goats), tapes are bad for a rebound, so I'd be very sure to repeat with another wormer in a couple weeks.

I'm so glad she's doing better!

edited to add: if you end up looking for a new vet and cant find one that works with goats, look for someone who specialized in Cattle. They tend to be more "open minded" and willing to learn new or different things. Equine vets are wonderful, and have their place, but tend to know only what they know and stick to that.

 

[Bunny-kids]

Thanks, y'all,

She still has a long ways to go, and I'm not 100% confident of her recovery. Still, she's a STRONG girl as far as her will and how she USED TO be.

I'm still kicking myself for letting her carry those kids. The doeling is a doll, and I'm glad to have her, but not at the risk of a goat I already raised.

That's the problem ... she was SO strong as a kid. She amazed people who saw her and couldn't believe she was so big and strong. But as soon as she became pregnant, she stopped growing, and now she's in such terrible shape.

I read somewhere online that at some farm, they'd never had a problem, and bred many goats to kid as yearlings. That may be true for them, but I wish I'd never seen it. She was YOUNG when she was bred (darn buck -- he's behind a gate made of bolted 2x4's and 4 x 4's now -- he smashed my other gates) ... but given that she was HUGE for a kid, and that others had had no problems, and I bought a yearling in milk once that grew to full size during her second year ... I thought she'd be ok.

I'm going to keep kicking myself over her, I'm sure, and I'll never do it again.

 

[Bunny-kids]

edited to add: if you end up looking for a new vet and cant find one that works with goats, look for someone who specialized in Cattle. They tend to be more "open minded" and willing to learn new or different things. Equine vets are wonderful, and have their place, but tend to know only what they know and stick to that.

Missed this before I answered.

Yes, I think I'm looking for a new vet. There is one around here who "had goats" and I'm going to talk to her. Otherwise, I think I'm out of luck unless I want to travel a LONG ways. The other one I'd considered was a horse vet.

This one I see now ... He does see a lot of cows. But horses too. It's a large animal clinic, but they see plenty of dogs and cats too. I think it's only the one vet.

My dog/cat vet I like better ... he knows he doesn't know goats, but he's willing to learn. His dad retired and left him the business. His dad was a wonderful goat vet, I hear. Sigh.

 

[20kidsonhill]

Thanks, y'all,

She still has a long ways to go, and I'm not 100% confident of her recovery. Still, she's a STRONG girl as far as her will and how she USED TO be.

I'm still kicking myself for letting her carry those kids. The doeling is a doll, and I'm glad to have her, but not at the risk of a goat I already raised.

That's the problem ... she was SO strong as a kid. She amazed people who saw her and couldn't believe she was so big and strong. But as soon as she became pregnant, she stopped growing, and now she's in such terrible shape.

I read somewhere online that at some farm, they'd never had a problem, and bred many goats to kid as yearlings. That may be true for them, but I wish I'd never seen it. She was YOUNG when she was bred (darn buck -- he's behind a gate made of bolted 2x4's and 4 x 4's now -- he smashed my other gates) ... but given that she was HUGE for a kid, and that others had had no problems, and I bought a yearling in milk once that grew to full size during her second year ... I thought she'd be ok.

I'm going to keep kicking myself over her, I'm sure, and I'll never do it again.

We breed all of ours to kid by the time they are 15 or 16 months old, and they never seem stunted as an adult. But one thing I have noticed that coccidiosis and tapeworms can be a real problem in young does, especially if they are gestating or nursing/milking. There is no reason she can't recover from this, But it will take time, and she will be more acceptable to a worm load for a while. I would say you are looking at 4 or 5 months of recovery time and putting muscle back on.