We are now off of grain!

[Goat Whisperer]

@Samantha drawz this post is not directed at you or anyone on this forum so please don't take it that way.

I think many have a negative view on grain/feed. Feed can be a very healthy thing, as long as you keep it in balance. I feed a very good quality pelleted feed. I don't feed it to all my goats but I feed it to those that need it. Some growing kids need to be on feed while others don't.

Currently I am feeding almost the entire doe herd, why? Because a few of the milkers are getting cut down to milking once a day and I want to put weight on them before breeding season. Others are yearlings that are still growing. Although they aren't skinny, I want them to get a few pounds on them before fall. Some of my other does (ND's) I have to pull out and lock them in a pen because they are fat and will get obese if they are on grain.

I am seeing more and more often is that people don't want to feed.....They want it to be natural. The way I look at it is if you have your goats behind a fence it won't ever be natural

Heck if we want to to go on about what is natural, I wouldn't even consider milking a dairy goat and drinking its milk natural because well that doesn't really happen in the wild.

It is up to the owner of the goats to decide how they will care for their herd.

 

[mikiz]

I don't think grain is bad, I just don't see them needing a concentrated amount of it at any time. Mixed with other stuff yes, and in moderation is fine.
Have you ever considered that predators eat the organs first because they taste better? Muscle is pretty bland when it's raw. Animals will do what they can to get as much of the "yummy stuff" or things that make them feel good. It's what they're wired to do.

I'm not surprised that the goats are behaving much better since not having grain, they're not obsessing over it or working out a billion ways to get to it, because it's not a conscious part of their diet anymore. They'll probably behave wonderfully around people as well now, because the delicious stuff comes only when people are around, so they'll be super friendly.
It's why treat-training works so well, animals, and humans, will jump through flaming hoops for what they consider a pleasurable treat.

 

[OneFineAcre]

I don't think grain is bad, I just don't see them needing a concentrated amount of it at any time. Mixed with other stuff yes, and in moderation is fine.
Have you ever considered that predators eat the organs first because they taste better? Muscle is pretty bland when it's raw. Animals will do what they can to get as much of the "yummy stuff" or things that make them feel good. It's what they're wired to do.

I'm not surprised that the goats are behaving much better since not having grain, they're not obsessing over it or working out a billion ways to get to it, because it's not a conscious part of their diet anymore. They'll probably behave wonderfully around people as well now, because the delicious stuff comes only when people are around, so they'll be super friendly.
It's why treat-training works so well, animals, and humans, will jump through flaming hoops for what they consider a pleasurable treat.

No I had not considered they ate the organs first because they taste better
Interesting thought though
I

 

[OneFineAcre]

No I had not considered they ate the organs first because they taste better
Interesting thought though
I

Ok I considered it
No that isn't it
They eat it first because nature has conditioned them to eat the most nutritious food first
Why?
Because many don't get to finish the meal before a larger or more dominant predator(s) takes the meal from them

Now really, I don't pay to feed anyone's goats but my own
So if Samantha doesn't want to feed hers grain that's her prerogative.
And when/if you actually have some goats feed them what you like

When Samantha first posted this I didn't reply because I didn't have anything to say
When she put pics up I stated they seemed small for their age
If she's ok with them I am too
Oh and the behavior they displayed before she stopped feeding grain?
It called a Pavlovian Response
You know Pavlov and his bratty dog
Mine do it every day in the morning and evening when they each get about a cup of a balanced goat feed after enjoying free choice grass hay, some alfalfa hay, and all the browse they can eat

 

[mikiz]

Is it then a coincidence that what is considered the most nutritious, is, generally, also the tastiest? (except in the case of man-made refined food some of which is indeed terrible when consumed in any quantity)
Samantha said she thought their behaviour was overly ambitious, not just your regular hollering and general rambunctiousness in excitment or expectation of food.
Do your goats also destroy metal feed bins for their feed? There is a difference between conditioned response and outright crazy cravings.
There's a reason animals are wired to devour as much of the "good stuff" as they can, it's because it is supposed to be a rare meal that they are able to eat a decent quantity of it.
Did you also know if a predator eats too much of the offal, they too will become ill from not eating enough of the bland and boring?

I never said grain was bad, and people can and will feed what they feel is best for their animals, just that high concentrated food is better mixed with other food and in moderation.
And of course indiviuals will be individuals, just like you don't feed certain breeds of horse any grain and others you could feed in buckets and it wouldn't make a difference to their behaviour. Food affects everyone differently.

I will leave this topic now, and hope that it is thought inducing for others, at least to consider another side.
And apologies to Samantha for blowing up a happy thread I'm glad to hear the goats are doing well.

 

[OneFineAcre]

Is it then a coincidence that what is considered the most nutritious, is, generally, also the tastiest? (except in the case of man-made refined food some of which is indeed terrible when consumed in any quantity)
Samantha said she thought their behaviour was overly ambitious, not just your regular hollering and general rambunctiousness in excitment or expectation of food.
Do your goats also destroy metal feed bins for their feed? There is a difference between conditioned response and outright crazy cravings.
There's a reason animals are wired to devour as much of the "good stuff" as they can, it's because it is supposed to be a rare meal that they are able to eat a decent quantity of it.
Did you also know if a predator eats too much of the offal, they too will become ill from not eating enough of the bland and boring?

I never said grain was bad, and people can and will feed what they feel is best for their animals, just that high concentrated food is better mixed with other food and in moderation.
And of course indiviuals will be individuals, just like you don't feed certain breeds of horse any grain and others you could feed in buckets and it wouldn't make a difference to their behaviour. Food affects everyone differently.

I will leave this topic now, and hope that it is thought inducing for others, at least to consider another side.
And apologies to Samantha for blowing up a happy thread I'm glad to hear the goats are doing well.

And what are you basing your statement that the organs taste best on?
Do you prefer liver to a filet?

 

[babsbag]

Liver

 

[samssimonsays]

No offense taken here @Goat Whisperer I love learning the different ways of things.

@mikiz don't worry about it, this has all been super informative and I have learned a lot!

I am with @babsbag on the Liver but my dogs sure do love em! And hot dogs....

@OneFineAcre The difference is you have a quality feed where as Purina is all that is available by me and no feed is better than their feed in my eyes. I have had plenty of horrible experiences with it in rabbit feed to know to steer clear of it. The only other kind available is one that is mixed at the feed store and I have found it is mostly cracked corn and a LOT of fines with a pellet thrown in here or there. I have read on grain vs. no grain and it is a very similar debate as RAW for dogs and cats vs. not. There is a very distinct line where people are either for it or against it. I am just happy that my goats coats cleared up and their demeanor's changed since taking them off. They also no longer act as if they are starving. to each their own. I won't tell anyone they are wrong for what they are feeding or how they feed, it is their choice. I have a feed store working on getting a better quality one for winter/when I start milking in 2017

 

[elevan]

Moderator Note:

Grain vs No Grain is just as divisive as Horns vs No Horns and each member has a right to make a decision based on their own herd and their own resources. There is no right OR wrong answer to either issue.

Goats fed grain will grow more rapidly and reach peak performance (breeding age, slaughter weight) earlier than those feed a forage only diet. That does not mean that a forage fed goat of the same age is too small for their age, it simply means that they are a forage fed goat...they are growing slower due to a lower volume intake. Not everyone wants the same things out of their herd. Not everyone wants to buy grain, not everyone has good forage to allow their goats to eat...everyone has different choices to make. The point is - We are all in different shoes and all must walk a different mile, don't judge others when you're not walking in their shoes.

 

[outdoorhoney]

Frantic and absolutely acting as if I starved them ( I know that is totally normal as they are goats but the level of frantic was mind boggling). They destroyed my fence and part of my building in an attempt to get to the grain in the barn (they are outside the barn with a pen attached to it). They no longer care about the metal feed bins my rabbits feed is in, they are no longer beside themselves hollering outside the barn door when they get to come out of the pen. If I had video taped the frenzy they were in when it came time for their grain it would blow you away. Now that it is a rare treat when people come over to hand feed them they have become accustomed to not destroying the feed metal containers to get to any kind of feed.

Although I am very sorry to hear you had to deal with your frantic goats, I couldn't help but find joy in your post. Mostly because I can relate to how it used to be for you! Remember how I mentioned my girls were crazy over grains? Everyday they get a new inch of attitude as they grow up and it's starting to get quite hectic during feeding time. I left the feed buckets in the pen this evening (mistake), so I went to grab them and bring them into the barn to fill up, as I opened up the gate to the girls pen without checking to see if the other gate out was shut (second mistake), Gertrude, my Alpine, bolted out and followed me to the barn I was not impressed by her bold maneuver.