What's wrong with my 6 month old buckling?

[CapraCurry]

Alrighty goat folks, I'm at my wits end here and I need some advice. I have no idea what the heck is going on with our buckling. His half brother started getting this way too but has since been sold. These are pictures of him from early September.

And this is what he looks like now:

What happened? Even worse, these photos aren't even showing it at its worst. It varies in size and severity, which is why I'm certain it has to do with his rumen. The only thing that's changed is where they lived. My stock have moved up with me to Gainesville (I'm in college) from Orlando. The goats are primarily grass hay fed, as they were only on about 0.5 acre before and are currently penned in a similar space. The lot isn't particularly lush and they aren't getting into anything super rich and green. In fact, the terrain and grass appears to be fairly identical to what they were on before. He lives with his our herd sire, two Jacob's sheep, and previously his half-brother. Seriously, the only thing that has changed is that we have moved and he lives on different grounds now. We're still in the process of searching for a vet that knows a thing or two about goats. Unfortunately, they seem to be few and far in between here in Florida. We've tried worming, treating for cocci, free choice baking soda, Durvet bloat treatment, massages, the works. He's eating exactly the same diet at the exact same amounts! The hay we got in Orlando is the same stuff up here in Gainesville. The SAME exact thing started happening to his half brother, but his was purchased right when we began to notice (Don't worry, we let the buyers know and everything and be fine since leaving). He's definitely not fat, I can feel his little ribs and hip bones just fine. His father hasn't been affected by this. He eats and stays on his feet, but I think he's feeling discomfort because he doesn't seem to be as happy and springy as he used to be. Has any one here had this occur to them? I'm really desperate for some answers here..

 

[Latestarter]

My first thought would be a severe worm load. Have you had a fecal count done? Before and after worming? If you don't do a fecal before the worming, you have no idea what you're trying to kill or if there's even a worm issue. If you don't re-check with a fecal after the worming, there's no way to know if it worked or not. The worms you're trying to kill may have adapted to the wormer you're using, in which case it will be worthless and you'll need to switch to a different wormer. Many wormers need to be used at a heavier dose for goats as they have such a fast metabolism. Many folks not following the prescribed protocol end up worsening the worm problem as they survive the attempt and become stronger because of it. Which is why many dewormers no longer work.

@Goat Whisperer @frustratedearthmother @Fullhousefarm @ragdollcatlady Or any of the many others...

 

[babsbag]

I agree with the worming.

 

[Southern by choice]

Agree with fecal analysis also when deworming-
follow up is importamt as most dewormers only kill 4th stage
If using safegaurd- it is a 3 day course with a much higher dose than is onbottle

I noticed you have him with sheep- this could be part of your problem

Goats need goat minerals. Copper is an absolute necessity for goats. Sheep cannot really have copper.

I would give this little guy a copper bolus asap if it were my goat. Finding a way to give minerals needs to be priority.
I would also be giving him some feed. Make sure it has ammonium chloride in the feed (skip all baking soda) and about 1 cup am and 1 cup pm... then reduce to about a cup a day. Keeping the Calcium Phosphorus ratio 2:1 up to 4:1

If he were mine I would be giving a B complex injection as well.

You did not mention if he is rutting hard or not. Bucks in heavy rut can lose a lot of weight- but I suspect there is more going on with this guy.
I hope you can find a good goat vet soon.

 

[ragdollcatlady]

Goats need goat minerals. Copper is an absolute necessity for goats. Sheep cannot really have copper.

I would give this little guy a copper bolus asap if it were my goat. Finding a way to give minerals needs to be priority.

The above advice from Southern and the fecal and deworming already mentioned is where I would start.

I have one young buck that is too lean for my liking despite doing all of our usual care, blood tests came back clean for CAE, CL, and Johnnes, so we will also be doing dome detective work to figure out why and get him growing like he should.

 

[CapraCurry]

Hey guys, thanks for all of the responses. He and his father were bolus'd at the beginning of the month and his mucous membranes, per FAMACHA, are nice a bright healthy pink, the darkest color on the card. Because he and his father live with sheep, they have access to a stock block with no copper, and then are fed a goat feed with copper that is top dressed with 1/4 oz of Manna Pro Goat Mineral (as per the bags instructions since I can't feed free choice in the current set up). The hay here has very very little copper. The ammonium chloride, I need advice on guys. Both boys manage to sift through most of the stuff when I feed (no idea how since it's powder), the best success I've had is adding it to their water, and even then I'm afraid they're not drinking as much cause of the taste! Anyways, where I live now has a much higher deer population, could the parasites, if they are there, be coming from them? I do have access to a microscope via Uni that's always available (even weekends!) so I suppose I could go out and try to do a fecal slide today. He's not rutting at all, he's showing 0 signs of buckish-ness. Sure I've seen him pee on himself maybe one or twice, but as far as he knows he's still a cuddly little baby. Will follow up with fecal results but you'll have to bear with me, I'm still not the greatest at reading them and identifying which worm eggs are what. @Southern by choice, we HAVE been worming with Safeguard, but at the dosage rate on the bottle, perhaps that's why we haven't seen any change.

 

[Southern by choice]

The dosage is really for cattle- even though it says goats. :/
One dose and the dosage there will do nothing.

I would start with a fecal- if you can try to do the McMasters
I have a how to in an article here on BYH- just go under articles- goats and you will see 3 different ones- the McMasters is 2 parts because I can only load 10 pics in a post :/

I would look at your goat feed- if it has ac in it then you don't need to have it out free choice however baking soda renders the ac useless.

Is he from tested stock? Cae, CL, Johnes?

The pics from early September are the top two right?
In those pics he was definitely dangerously thin. The pics after that- hmmmm... he may just actually be developing some rumin and growing.

How much does he weigh? how old was he in the first pics?

 

[CapraCurry]

He is from tested stock, both his mother and father were tested from blood draws I did myself haha. As far as weight, I honestly couldn't tell you, we used to have a dairy goat weigh tape but it was super inaccurate with the Niggie's. Where they lived before, we had access to a livestock scale but not currently. In the first pics he was around 5 1/2 months, today he is almost 7 months. I didn't think that the way he looked was considered dangerously thin He was examined by our vet in Orlando so he could get a health cert and be transported here. She said he was looking great. I'll take a look at the feed tag and see how much AC's in it. I *think* the livestock unit at school has McMasters slides but I'm not sure. Will give your articles a read to learn how to do it. After I do the fecal I'll post the results here to see whether or not I should try worming him again.

 

[ragdollcatlady]

For the weight... he looks small enough to pick up. Grab a friend to see the numbers and a human scale. Get your own weight. Pick up the goat kid, hop back on the scale, have your buddy read the numbers, then just subtract your weight from the combined weight to get an idea how much your kid weighs. Not the best, but far better than not having any weight for drug dosing. I need 2 people to weigh this way since I cant see the numbers with a baby goat in my arms.

 

[Southern by choice]

Some years back a friend of ours had these bucklings that all had basketball bellies. However they were not thin, they were in good condition but the basketball bellies were so tight- all the time. They had baking soda free choice, hay , and a little feed.
Ran fecal after fecal- there were a few parasites but nothing major- long story short- it wasn't cocci, wasn't parasites but this continued on and on. Eventually one died, unfortunately no necropsy was done. The other two stayed that way... not sure what happened to them... anyway it was bizarre. It was only on the bucklings though - they were all wethered. No doelings had the issue.

As far as the pics go and the condition of the kid. It will not help you nor anyone else to skip lightly over this- so I am not being a jerk here but far too many people are new to goats and if no one tells them and everyone just plays nicey nicey then it helps no one.
The first pics- for a HC they are only looking at certain criteria- if that criteria is met then that is all that matters. In a nutshell- yes, he was dangerously thin.
Nigerian dwarfs are rather rounder and plumper, especially kids. When you look at the old pics and the newer you still have the same issue.
The tail head is prominent, you can clearly see the hollowing as well as the thurls and pins.
On the first pic which it is a bit better to see look at the transverse process. It is very pronounced.
There are no fat reserves, and no muscling- not on his neck or rear legs in both sets of pics.

I wonder if he is severely lacking cobalt. There is a thread on here by FergusonK and the condition of some goats she bought that were in really rough shape- she did everything then gave cobalt. Giving cobalt is tricky. I will say Manna pro goat minerals has Cobalt listed in the ingredients but notice it has such an insignificant amount there are no values for it. Sweetlix is far better for this.

I am leaning more toward looking at your forage and your hay. If it is depleted of nutrients than it is doing you no good. I would look for really good tested hay, alfalfa mixed hay may really help.

I have included some pics to help you see what I mean as far as weight and body condition-
I want to see your boy get in a good place- just like you do. I love these guys, and I am very partial to bucklings

This is a diagram of the back bone
.

Another view pic is dorked up though but you get the point

This is one of our bucklings- at 5 months

Here he is at 7 months- he is slightly underweight because he is in full blown rut!

even with him losing a bit of weight you can still see he is well muscled- notice the neck, hips, rear

I currently have a 7 month old buck, (not a nigerian) that is so out of his mind in rut and will not eat he IS dangerously thin. Fortunately almost all the does are bred now, and once that happens he will calm down and eat again. Truly this was the first time that has ever happened to us with bucklings- for some reason this group of bucklings have just been crazy in rut- not personality wise- just not wanting to eat. UGH

So I feel your exasperation. Sometimes you want to just go