Which Mini Breed is Best for us?

[Southern by choice]

I guess I didn't explain that well...
The lute shot basically prevented implantation. Not really an abortion. Although some will give it if they discover doe was bred and they don'y want the kids and they do abort. We did the lute a certain number of days after they bred her so no kids!
However then it does make the doe go back into heat. We never had anything like that happen before so there was no way I was going to let a nigie carry kiko babies.
Your right small buck to big doe.

Callie and "D" (male pyr) have always been lovebugs. Amy and Badger use to be with the bucks. D and Callie were with the Kiko does. D also was with the Nigie does. Then we switched everything around. Callie and D were like a married couple. Somewhere along the line though Callie was wooed by Moses... poor D
Callie and D do better with the Kikos and Amy and Badger love the dairy goats... it all works. Tiggs (Anatolian pup) is with the Kikos too. Loves being with them and Callie. Our other pups are with the dairy girls.

 

[Devonviolet]

I guess I didn't explain that well...
The lute shot basically prevented implantation. Not really an abortion. Although some will give it if they discover doe was bred and they don'y want the kids and they do abort. We did the lute a certain number of days after they bred her so no kids!
However then it does make the doe go back into heat. We never had anything like that happen before so there was no way I was going to let a nigie carry kiko babies.
Your right small buck to big doe.

Callie and "D" (male pyr) have always been lovebugs. Amy and Badger use to be with the bucks. D and Callie were with the Kiko does. D also was with the Nigie does. Then we switched everything around. Callie and D were like a married couple. Somewhere along the line though Callie was wooed by Moses... poor D
Callie and D do better with the Kikos and Amy and Badger love the dairy goats... it all works. Tiggs (Anatolian pup) is with the Kikos too. Loves being with them and Callie. Our other pups are with the dairy girls.

Ah! That explains it! I'm glad to hear your ND didn't have to deal with big kids!!! That would have hurt!

That's so sweet, the way your LGDs have worked out their places with the does and bucks. So, how does D handle it now that Callie has been wooed by Moses? Poor D!

 

[Southern by choice]

D does get depressed sometimes. But he is a confident dominant watcher. Completely independent and does not need anyone.
They still do love each other because sometimes if I need a dog somewhere else and I move D to go with some other group Callie will after a few days get a little whiny.
We have raised all the LGD's to have autonomy so each dog is highly independent but we do group or pair then by their traits. In every field we have a watcher and a patroller. That is the best team pairing.
My newest team , which I don't do littermates but we have kept Elisa and Chunk they are both highly independent not needy of each other and float to their own tune. Chunk is a watcher. Elisa is a patroller. My Chunk is going to be 8 months on the 11th or 12th... he is fast becoming the lead dog. He is taking over his fathers position.
Chunk is also highly bonded to me and I am his "goat" too. I am D's also... D is Chunks Uncle... and the two are almost identical in everyway.

 

[Devonviolet]

D does get depressed sometimes. But he is a confident dominant watcher. Completely independent and does not need anyone.
They still do love each other because sometimes if I need a dog somewhere else and I move D to go with some other group Callie will after a few days get a little whiny.
We have raised all the LGD's to have autonomy so each dog is highly independent but we do group or pair then by their traits. In every field we have a watcher and a patroller. That is the best team pairing.
My newest team , which I don't do littermates but we have kept Elisa and Chunk they are both highly independent not needy of each other and float to their own tune. Chunk is a watcher. Elisa is a patroller. My Chunk is going to be 8 months on the 11th or 12th... he is fast becoming the lead dog. He is taking over his fathers position.
Chunk is also highly bonded to me and I am his "goat" too. I am D's also... D is Chunks Uncle... and the two are almost identical in everyway.

That's good to know that D is coping with less attention from Callie, but also that Callie still needs that connection with D. How do you train your dogs to be watchers and patrollers? Or is that something that they just do instinctually?

You said you don't usually put litter mates together. Can I ask why? I just started a journal, about our LGDs. Any input there would be greatly appreciated. Today, after a lot of thought and consideration, we bought our puppy's brother. I've written more about it in my new journal:

http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/devonviolet-our-lgd-adventure.30307/#post-377431

 

[Southern by choice]

Whether a dog is a watcher or patroller is ingrained within.
No you cannot train them to be either one.
I am not a fan of litter mates in general as each dog must have their own autonomy as well as the pecking order established as young pups will continue with them. This is not always good. There me be a particular dog that may not reach it's full potential because it is "trapped" in the order of that pack.
I personally never recommend buying a pup until it has been evaluated. Patroller and patroller will not be the best team, that is usually a nightmare waiting to happen especially on small farm placements. Not a huge deal on 100 acres.
Watcher and Patrollers are in every field.
I am a trainer... trained for many years. First worked with Kuvasz back in the 80's, starting in 1990 Anatolians and Tibetin Mastiffs followed. In a different capacity.
Long Story short when we started with actual LGD's and had a farm I saw how little good info was out there and that much of the info was terrible. Everything from dogs should be left alone or they won't bond etc to stick them in the field and they will know what to do.
Evaluating LGD's is different than other breeds and many who breed LGD's have zero ability to evaluate. Yes the majority of the LGD breeds will instinctively grow up to guard but matching environment to correct placement is critical. Of course the majority of people getting these dogs will have dogs that eventually guard and they will be great guardians however more often than not they go through issues they never needed to.
We start observations at 3 weeks dominance is often seen at this age. By 5 an order is established, by 6 next stage of development begins. At 8 weeks we are watching for many behavior traits. This 2 week period is important. At 10 weeks we do a preliminary evaluation and test.
We include noise testing at this time, evals are done off site.
From 10-12 weeks we finalize our evaluations. Each pup is placed for the exact environment and matched if going into an established LGD home.
Starting here you can see how our litter grew up
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/minnie-blurb-pup-3-pics.27247/page-3

Final evals for the first litter here
Imprinting here

12 weeks is the earliest we will let a pup go.

 

[norseofcourse]

Those puppies are soooo cute! I think Decorah would make a neat girl dog's name...

 

[Devonviolet]

Whether a dog is a watcher or patroller is ingrained within.
No you cannot train them to be either one.
I am not a fan of litter mates in general as each dog must have their own autonomy as well as the pecking order established as young pups will continue with them. This is not always good. There me be a particular dog that may not reach it's full potential because it is "trapped" in the order of that pack.
I personally never recommend buying a pup until it has been evaluated. Patroller and patroller will not be the best team, that is usually a nightmare waiting to happen especially on small farm placements. Not a huge deal on 100 acres.
Watcher and Patrollers are in every field.
I am a trainer... trained for many years. First worked with Kuvasz back in the 80's, starting in 1990 Anatolians and Tibetin Mastiffs followed. In a different capacity.
Long Story short when we started with actual LGD's and had a farm I saw how little good info was out there and that much of the info was terrible. Everything from dogs should be left alone or they won't bond etc to stick them in the field and they will know what to do.
Evaluating LGD's is different than other breeds and many who breed LGD's have zero ability to evaluate. Yes the majority of the LGD breeds will instinctively grow up to guard but matching environment to correct placement is critical. Of course the majority of people getting these dogs will have dogs that eventually guard and they will be great guardians however more often than not they go through issues they never needed to.
We start observations at 3 weeks dominance is often seen at this age. By 5 an order is established, by 6 next stage of development begins. At 8 weeks we are watching for many behavior traits. This 2 week period is important. At 10 weeks we do a preliminary evaluation and test.
We include noise testing at this time, evals are done off site.
From 10-12 weeks we finalize our evaluations. Each pup is placed for the exact environment and matched if going into an established LGD home.
Starting here you can see how our litter grew up
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/minnie-blurb-pup-3-pics.27247/page-3

Final evals for the first litter here
Imprinting here

12 weeks is the earliest we will let a pup go.

Gee, Southern. I wish we weren't a long two days drive away from y'all! I can do a one day drive. But, the 2 day drive from NC to TX, when we moved here, almost killed me. Doing it both ways just doesn't appeal to me.

I hope we didn't make a mistake taking litter mates now. I did pray about it and felt I was given the go ahead. The non-refundable deposits are paid. So, we will see how things go. Thanks for your input.

 

[Devonviolet]

Those puppies are soooo cute! I think Decorah would make a neat girl dog's name...

That is a cute name. We are going to stick with Italian names, since they have Italian blood in them.

 

[Southern by choice]

When the Lord leads things work out!
My 2 male pyrs are siblings, but I train so I made sure they were socialized together yet they developed into "who" they were meant to be. I had no intention of getting the 2nd male... long story but in the end I am glad I did.
One of the people that got a pup from the first litter really had their heart set on a particular dog. They saw the pups (no handling though) when they were days old. They drove to our house every week and saw the pups grow. They also knew I don't let people "pick". I narrow the choices down to the particular pup that suits their environment. That could be one pup or three pups etc, depending on size of litter.
I love the livestock guardian dog and I have a heart for those tat farm. I never wanted my dogs to be out of price range for the average farmer. Out of the 2 litters I have not pocketed one penny.
Truthfully, I don't even cover my costs. I love working, training, teaching, and evaluating. I do not care for breeding at all. Before the 2 litters it had been 25 years I think , since I bred a litter (of one of my own dogs). I prefer to take others pups and bring them in for training. The other issue for me is when I have a spectacular dog I always want to keep it for myself.

Chunk is my superdog. Way mature for his age, highly confident, extremely discerning and he has decided that he has taken ownership... of me. He displays his ownership the moment I go in the field. I know it stems from when he was a baby. He was a growler and domineering... at 3 weeks I would put all the pups on their backs, gently rubbing their belly and neck... he was a fighter. I knew that had to be worked with... through that I became the alpha and also a strong trust and bond was built. He has never stepped out of line. Looks at the other pups like they are nuts when they trot after a chicken.
I kinda feel selfish for keeping him.
He is the most focused pup I have seen since an Anotolian pup some years back.

 

[Devonviolet]

When the Lord leads things work out!
My 2 male pyrs are siblings, but I train so I made sure they were socialized together yet they developed into "who" they were meant to be. I had no intention of getting the 2nd male... long story but in the end I am glad I did.
One of the people that got a pup from the first litter really had their heart set on a particular dog. They saw the pups (no handling though) when they were days old. They drove to our house every week and saw the pups grow. They also knew I don't let people "pick". I narrow the choices down to the particular pup that suits their environment. That could be one pup or three pups etc, depending on size of litter.
I love the livestock guardian dog and I have a heart for those tat farm. I never wanted my dogs to be out of price range for the average farmer. Out of the 2 litters I have not pocketed one penny.
Truthfully, I don't even cover my costs. I love working, training, teaching, and evaluating. I do not care for breeding at all. Before the 2 litters it had been 25 years I think , since I bred a litter (of one of my own dogs). I prefer to take others pups and bring them in for training. The other issue for me is when I have a spectacular dog I always want to keep it for myself.

Chunk is my superdog. Way mature for his age, highly confident, extremely discerning and he has decided that he has taken ownership... of me. He displays his ownership the moment I go in the field. I know it stems from when he was a baby. He was a growler and domineering... at 3 weeks I would put all the pups on their backs, gently rubbing their belly and neck... he was a fighter. I knew that had to be worked with... through that I became the alpha and also a strong trust and bond was built. He has never stepped out of line. Looks at the other pups like they are nuts when they trot after a chicken.
I kinda feel selfish for keeping him.
He is the most focused pup I have seen since an Anotolian pup some years back.

I'm glad you were able to have the pyr siblings work together, and yet develop into who they were meant to be. Is there a secret for how to do that? Is it more difficult when you have a male and female? I have never worked with LGDs before, and I know that working with them is different,from working with other dogs. But, I did obedience train a couple of my own dogs a number of years back. One of them was a Springer Spaniel, that had been inbred, causing her to have "rage syndrome", which made it difficult to work with her. I was able to get the message across - by putting her in that submissive position on the floor, that you were talking about.

It's a bit different, but we have two rather large, strong willed cats, that we got as kittens. We have managed to bring them both around using a similar method. Now they sleep on their back, and purr when I rub their tummy. And they come when I call them!

Thanks for your feedback on all of this.