# Keeping Predators away.



## Tapsmom (Mar 17, 2014)

I currently have 6 ND out with my 15.2 hand horse. Their pasture is surrounded by the electric goat fence from premier one with part of it being the 2" electric tape..4 strands of it starting at about 4 " off the ground. The charger is a Cube and packs a wallop. My question is this..is that enough predator protection or is there something else you would suggest? At this point a guardian animal is not a possibility although I am thinking of possible adding a Llama. The permanent fencing plan is to use the 48" metal mesh and I am thinking that I should run a hot wire above the top and along the bottom on the outside to deter digging. Unfortunately, we won't be able to put in the permanent fencing for at least another month.
Do you think my horse would be a deterent? The predators of which I speak are coyotes, bobcats and bears. I am thinking the coyote is the biggest concern. I live in CT if that helps. I was told that there are some coyotes across town that have taken down a few deer so I am a bit nervous..but I hate to lock the goats in the barn nonstop as well.


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## Tapsmom (Mar 18, 2014)

Does anyone have any thoughts?  I doubt that my horse would provide "protection" ,but I am much more interested in a deterrent lol. If they see a few NDs who are around a large, bay horse would that be enough for them to stay away? Oh, and they are inside an electrified 42" goat fence.


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## Bossroo (Mar 18, 2014)

Tapsmom said:


> Does anyone have any thoughts?  I doubt that my horse would provide "protection" ,but I am much more interested in a deterrent lol. If they see a few NDs who are around a large, bay horse would that be enough for them to stay away? Oh, and they are inside an electrified 42" goat fence.


That 42" electrified fence is just a small bump in the road for all of the predators mentioned.  Also look overhead, hawks and eagles will just fly in and help themselves to lunch.  Your horse may or may not be a deterrent , depending on individual. My stallion would kill, maim and destroy any predator out there, while the open mares out in pasture can have coyotes trot around them with not a single head lifted from the grass. If they have foals at side , then it is a different story.  Same with the lama, as I have seen both ways.


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## Womwotai (Mar 18, 2014)

I know you said guardian animals are not a possibility but if it were me, I would be seriously looking at LGD's (actually I AM seriously looking at LGD's).  I will sleep much better at night when I have mature, trained LGD's on the job.

A month after we got our first lambs, coyotes did get into our very well-fenced pasture and killed one of them.  The emotional toll it takes to lose an animal is difficult to measure.

One predator you didn't mention is domestic dogs, but they are sometimes just as big a threat as the wild animals.  While my predator was coyote(s), a nearby acquaintance had his neighbor's 3 Rottweilers get into his pasture while he was at work one day and kill or maim almost his entire flock of mostly adult sheep, along with the few lambs that were at foot at the time.  While losing my lamb to coyotes was hard, I knew the coyotes were just hungry and trying to survive, like everyone else.  But in the case of the dog attack, they did it purely for the sport - that would be far harder to take.

I don't believe a horse will be much protection.  We frequently flush out coyotes while riding our horses and the horses almost do not react to them, not seeing them as a threat.

I've looked into other guard animals like donkeys, alpacas and llamas.  While I know many people keep them and find them successful at predator control, I can't help thinking that is relying on a prey animal to protect other prey animals.  If the predator were a domestic dog or coyote, perhaps they would be effective.  However I suspect that if it were a bobcat, mountain lion or bear, a llama will not be able to keep your ND's safe.

Is there a reason you cannot keep LGD's?


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## Tapsmom (Mar 18, 2014)

We have a small hobby farm and have about an acre and a half currently fenced with the electric web.  I already have 2 dogs and young children and I don't know enough about guardian dogs.  We also frequently have lots of children and friends visiting and I don't want to be concerned with a dog going after anyone when they are visiting.  I don't think my setup is really good for a LGD.  I know the dogs won't get in.  Ours have been hit by the fence and I have a difficult neighbor who sometimes let her German Shepherds wander.  The fence stopped them.  We do lock everyone in at night, though.  What kind of fencing would be best?


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## Scooby308 (Mar 18, 2014)

The neighbor's dog is probably well fed and that jolt isn't worth the meal. Nothing stops a bear short of a dog (black bear that is). Bobcats are a very awesome beast in the predator world. They will climb roost trees and grab crows at night. They also can jump and be very crafty. Coyotes are far from the dummies portrayed in Willie and Roadrunner cartoons especially if it is cold and they pack together.  Point being, a meal is worth the sting to get it. The bears probably will walk right past your stock to get to your feed bins (they love sweet feed). Your best bet is an LGD. 

All that said, you can try motion sensor lights and sirens. Those will scare off owls, coyotes, and cats...until they get used to it. Noise works well with bears. 

There are bear boards, trip flare/flash bangs, and of course firearms. But if you are not in a true rural area these may not be options. I personally would never use bear boards unless I were in grizzly country or the black bears were actually hunting the livestock. Be aware that local fish and wildlife laws differ from state to state so they may not even be legal there and with small kids running around, not a good idea.


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## Tapsmom (Mar 18, 2014)

I am in a suburban/semirural area in CT.  There are lots of species in the area for the predators to feast upon besides my stock and many small farms along our street.  I've had goats and chickens for 3 years so far with no trouble yet..I would just like to keep it that way.  According to a  few of my neighbors (one being right next door) there is a bobcat who makes his afternoon route across the overgrown field next to our yard.  I have never seen him in our yard.  I am also looking into game cameras to see what is coming into the area.  The people on our street who free range their chickens have to replace them yearly..ours are not free range.(well at least what I would consider true "free range" lol)  They have a large coop and a much larger fenced in area with a mesh top to keep them safe.  I'll try to post a picture of our setup once I can get my phone to cooperate


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## Scooby308 (Mar 18, 2014)

Perhaps the bobcat is well fed on your neighbors' free ranged birds. Lol. If you haven't had problems in that long you are either lucky or have a pretty good defense going.


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## M.L. McKnight (Mar 18, 2014)

My mule patrols the pasture and keeps everything away from her herd of goats. I'd almost dare a coyote to push his luck and try to get on her side of the fence! Unless you have an overprotective mule, I'd suggest that you use pee. I keep a 5 gallon bucket out in the barn and it gets poured around the borders of my gardens and fields in the summer to keep deer away. I also pour some near my goats when they kid to deter coyotes. I have been doing this for years and even though pee isn't something that everyone likes to talk about or use, it really does work. Being a cheap option doesn't hurt either.


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## Scooby308 (Mar 18, 2014)

We tried urine and hair swept up from a barber shop to keep deer out of dad's garden...never worked. Then last year he hung hunks of Irish Spring soap from strings in the garden...no deer.


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## M.L. McKnight (Mar 19, 2014)

I tried the Irish Spring soap around here but it didn't work. I had some luck with a deer deterrent but it was pricey, lasted only a few days and it's main ingredient was sulfur. Rotten eggs work to keep deer away but they attract flies and dogs seem to always know how to find the worst smelling stuff to perfume their coats with. Pee works around here. It becomes more potent if you let it sit for a few days before you put it around, just hold your breath while you pour it.


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## Tapsmom (Mar 19, 2014)

Hmm, I actually like the pee idea.  I had actually discussed that with my husband last night lol.  I suggested we have a few of the neighbors over and have them "process some beer" around our fence line ;-)  Where are you guys located?  I am in southern New England.  I am still fighting with my phone, but I will post pictures of my setup later today.


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## Scooby308 (Mar 19, 2014)

NE Kentucky here. That'd be a long trip for me to help process beer. Lol


I think deer are just like everything else. What works for one won't for another. 

Maybe the nitrates concentrate in the old urine or it ferments? Never tried saving urine for the purpose of deer but did use it to make black powder as a kid.


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## M.L. McKnight (Mar 19, 2014)

I am in NE Mississippi.

You'll need to have a 'processing party' once or twice a week to keep enough scent or you could rely on a few strategically placed wooden posts.


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## kinder (Mar 19, 2014)

Be careful though.. In my neck of the woods that would considered ( subject to a fine ) other wise some one will find a way to tax it as a chemical.!!


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## hilarie (Mar 19, 2014)

Tapsmom said:


> I currently have 6 ND out with my 15.2 hand horse. Their pasture is surrounded by the electric goat fence from premier one with part of it being the 2" electric tape..4 strands of it starting at about 4 " off the ground. The charger is a Cube and packs a wallop. My question is this..is that enough predator protection or is there something else you would suggest? At this point a guardian animal is not a possibility although I am thinking of possible adding a Llama. The permanent fencing plan is to use the 48" metal mesh and I am thinking that I should run a hot wire above the top and along the bottom on the outside to deter digging. Unfortunately, we won't be able to put in the permanent fencing for at least another month.
> Do you think my horse would be a deterent? The predators of which I speak are coyotes, bobcats and bears. I am thinking the coyote is the biggest concern. I live in CT if that helps. I was told that there are some coyotes across town that have taken down a few deer so I am a bit nervous..but I hate to lock the goats in the barn nonstop as well.


Where in CT are you?  I'm also in CT, in Coventry, and have the same predator concerns.  What we mostly see is hawks, coyotes, fox, and fisher cats, but I know there are bobcats in other parts of town, and twice this year mountain lions have been seen on South Street (although the DEP is still playing Emperor's New Clothes and refusing to acknowledge it.)  I don't have a LGD at present but am always open to the idea; a distant cousin in George who raises goats regularly lost kids every year to coyotes until she got a pair of maremmas, and then, poof - no more losses.  None.  Not one.  That was 15 years ago.  My goats are in the barn at night and in the pen during the day, with just garden variety cattle fence.  To my knowledge, the only predation that's occurred has been on the chickens (hawks and fox), and that's a very rare event due to Turk, the 15 pound Blue Orpington rooster with small swords on his legs. I'm also not opposed to keeping a .22 by the door.  I *really* dislike killing things - I'm a nurse practitioner and I'm all about saving lives - but come for my livestock and I'll give you a bad case of heartburn.  I don't miss, either.


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## Scooby308 (Mar 19, 2014)

So CT Fish and Wildlife is playing the same game as KY's?! There have been a few spotted in our area but always dismissed. About 10 yrs ago there was one spotted at an elementary school. Cops came out and saw it as well. F&W didn't see it so it wasn't a mtn lion. Pffft. They also said black bears weren't here either until walked through a small town tearing up trash cans in broad daylight @25 yrs ago.


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## Tapsmom (Mar 19, 2014)

Hilary, I'm in Thomaston.  I did some research on the Mountain Lion and why the states don't acknowledge them.  Apparently, once they acknowledge their existence they have to put money aside to spend on protecting them!  But I don't know how many they have to know are around before they can publicly accept that they are around.  We know there are active bear populations around here.  The school bus driver actually stopped the bus last Spring so the kids could watch one walk through a yard lol.
How long have you had goats, Hilarie and what kind do you have? We are also active in our local 4H group and O don't think anyone in our group has lost any to coyotes..but I do know one that lost some to a bear years ago.  I have not had any issues myself, yet.  But I prefer to prevent any issues.  We used to refer to our "temporary" chicken coop as "Chicken Fort Knox. "  We had it surrounded by a chain link fence, It had a mesh top, poultry netting also along the sides and 2x6 laid flat around the perimeter.


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## hilarie (Mar 19, 2014)

Tapsmom - I like that - Chicken Fort Knox   I agree, prevention is best.  My sister next door has what my husband calls the Chicken Taj Mahal - a beautiful fenced and covered pen, plus access to fenced pasture.  In a perfect world I'd do the same, but he is determined to free range ours, and.....you pick your fights.  The goats are MINE, and I get to direct their care.  I've had them for 3 years, and there are 6 of them: one LaMancha and the rest LaMancha/Oberhasli and Saanen/Oberhasli crosses.  A motley crew, perhaps, but the adult does (there are 3 of them) are all pregnant and all excellent milkers with great personalities.


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## hilarie (Mar 19, 2014)

....And, not to be outdone, William the wether:


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## Tapsmom (Mar 19, 2014)

Hilarie, you're goats look like quite the characters!  
OK, my computer is finally behaving.  Here are pictures of our setup..showing the fencing   Hopefully this will help you guys determine whether I have it at all safe for the goaties. You can see the front of the fencing, but The back fencing is a bit tougher to see..I'll have to get better pics of them.  The back fencing is about 6-8 inches shorter..I believe it is 42" tall verses 48"  All fencing is electrified.  I had to get the taller one in the front since my goofy horse will hop it if it's off.  The woods in the back are about 150" from the back of the fence.  The first and last pictures were taken off my back porch..so I have a nice, close view of everyone.  In fact, we often toss snacks right to them from the porch lol.


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## M.L. McKnight (Mar 19, 2014)

That fencing will do fine once everyone gets a good zap. I use that same type of netting to keep in some of my hogs, they weigh around 400lbs each. My only criticism of the netting is that it seems to sag and every so often you have to move your posts back a bit more to tighten it back up.

I thought of something for you, you could place a couple of 5 gallon buckets in the back corners of your your fence line and have your beer buddies assist you in filling them. Once they are full, tip them and start all over again. I figured that would save you from having to drive in any posts and should do the trick.


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## Tapsmom (Mar 20, 2014)

I did just tighten it and it does a beautiful job keeping everyone in.  My concern was keeping coyotes out!   I like the bucket idea, thanks!


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## M.L. McKnight (Mar 20, 2014)

Tapsmom said:


> I did just tighten it and it does a beautiful job keeping everyone in.  My concern was keeping coyotes out!   I like the bucket idea, thanks!


Sure thing.


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## goatboy1973 (Mar 21, 2014)

Tapsmom said:


> Does anyone have any thoughts?  I doubt that my horse would provide "protection" ,but I am much more interested in a deterrent lol. If they see a few NDs who are around a large, bay horse would that be enough for them to stay away? Oh, and they are inside an electrified 42" goat fence.


Nope, not enough protection. Go ahead and get yourself a llama or LGD.


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## hilarie (Mar 21, 2014)

I'm thinking more and more about a LGD...haven't had any goat predation problems at this point, but it'd be stupid to wait until the ship was sinking to find the lifeboat.  I know a lot in theory about them, and I've owned several dozen dogs in my life, mostly in the herding group (bouviers, GSD) but also some mutt/hound oddballs and two Portuguese Water Dogs.  I've also raised 9 GSD puppies for Fidelco (Guide Dog Foundation) so I feel I know what I'm doing with training, socializing and obedience; but I know NOTHING about how to raise a LGD that will live with my goats and really not be a pet...in a way it's a whole different planet.  Advice, anyone?  I'd love a maremma like my cousin has, but I have a feeling a GP would be easier to come by, and I've always loved the breed.


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## Pips (Mar 25, 2014)

Tapsmom said:


> I currently have 6 ND out with my 15.2 hand horse. Their pasture is surrounded by the electric goat fence from premier one with part of it being the 2" electric tape..4 strands of it starting at about 4 " off the ground. The charger is a Cube and packs a wallop. My question is this..is that enough predator protection or is there something else you would suggest? At this point a guardian animal is not a possibility although I am thinking of possible adding a Llama. The permanent fencing plan is to use the 48" metal mesh and I am thinking that I should run a hot wire above the top and along the bottom on the outside to deter digging. Unfortunately, we won't be able to put in the permanent fencing for at least another month.
> Do you think my horse would be a deterent? The predators of which I speak are coyotes, bobcats and bears. I am thinking the coyote is the biggest concern. I live in CT if that helps. I was told that there are some coyotes across town that have taken down a few deer so I am a bit nervous..but I hate to lock the goats in the barn nonstop as well.



1. I would think about getting a donkey or Llama, if you can't have a guardian dog, as you suggest.  They actually  make great guardians, noisy and extremely violent when pushed.  
2. make sure there is no rubbish around, no smells that would attract. 
3. put your younger animals away at night is also a good measure, coyotes won't take on larger adults unless they have to.  
4. leave things that smell of you around the perimeter.   
5. motion lights work extremely well too, especially if very bright and motion water sprayers are great too.
6. predator urine is also good.  Hard to get hold of sometimes, but wolf and bear urine keep coyotes away.   Other predators require other different types.  Some farmers bring in other dogs or even pee on the fences themselves. 
7. wind chimes/bells, although annoying, deter predators from coming close.  Or/and bells on the fence also helps.


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## purplequeenvt (Mar 25, 2014)

Pips said:


> 1. I would think about getting a donkey or Llama, if you can't have a guardian dog, as you suggest.  They actually  make great guardians, noisy and extremely violent when pushed.
> 2. make sure there is no rubbish around, no smells that would attract.
> *3. put your younger animals away at night is also a good measure, coyotes won't take on larger adults unless they have to.*
> 4. leave things that smell of you around the perimeter.
> ...



I guarantee a coyote will take on a "larger" adult - especially a ND goat! A ND is a snack for a coyote.

We had major predator issues last year. We lost a lamb to a bobcat in the spring and lost 3 adult sheep (2 Shetlands and one larger crossbred) and had another sheep seriously injured in the summer/fall. I got a Pyr puppy in May of 2013 and another Pyr pup in December 2013. I also have a couple llamas.

My advice - lock your goats up every night until you get your fence up. If you are thinking about a guard animal, but LGDs aren't an option, I'd go with the llamas over the donkeys. They are quiet and have similar feed and care requirements as sheep and goats. You would need to get them sheared every year or every other year.


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## Pips (Mar 25, 2014)

purplequeenvt said:


> I guarantee a coyote will take on a "larger" adult - especially a ND goat! A ND is a snack for a coyote.
> 
> We had major predator issues last year. We lost a lamb to a bobcat in the spring and lost 3 adult sheep (2 Shetlands and one larger crossbred) and had another sheep seriously injured in the summer/fall. I got a Pyr puppy in May of 2013 and another Pyr pup in December 2013. I also have a couple llamas.
> 
> My advice - lock your goats up every night until you get your fence up. If you are thinking about a guard animal, but LGDs aren't an option, I'd go with the llamas over the donkeys. They are quiet and have similar feed and care requirements as sheep and goats. You would need to get them sheared every year or every other year.



ND don't have to be that small to be s snack   adults can reach 70+ cms.  But you are right, adults are also at risk, but the young tend to attract more attention.

@purplequeenvt Coyotes tend to prefer smaller prey, rabbits,moles, rats, etc I am told ... they tend to be opportunists with larger prey and will, if hungry and in a pack take down goats and sheep.   I have never experienced coyote country with a herd,so going on secondhand information here, so I defer to your experience.


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## Pips (Mar 25, 2014)

hilarie said:


> I'm thinking more and more about a LGD...haven't had any goat predation problems at this point, but it'd be stupid to wait until the ship was sinking to find the lifeboat.  I know a lot in theory about them, and I've owned several dozen dogs in my life, mostly in the herding group (bouviers, GSD) but also some mutt/hound oddballs and two Portuguese Water Dogs.  I've also raised 9 GSD puppies for Fidelco (Guide Dog Foundation) so I feel I know what I'm doing with training, socializing and obedience; but I know NOTHING about how to raise a LGD that will live with my goats and really not be a pet...in a way it's a whole different planet.  Advice, anyone?  I'd love a maremma like my cousin has, but I have a feeling a GP would be easier to come by, and I've always loved the breed.



I would definitely go gentler breed on your decision, stay away from the ancient heavy hitters unless you really feel you have the confidence, like CAOs, Kangals, Tibetans, COs, etc ...  I like GPs and have seen numerous posts on them being the best all rounder, although strong willed, they are easier and more family happy than most others without much training.  So for a starter maybe (as you have had large dogs before) I might go in that direction.  Anatolians (kangal) are supposed to be reasonably user friendly too, I have never owned one, so not talking from personal experience here although a few friends have them, but are part of the heavier hitters but the gentler side if you want to push the boundaries a bit.

But the best advice I can give is research the breeds each in turn and see which matches best to your and family personality and needs.  I would do it mathematically if you can, pros and cons matrix, and talk to experienced owners of each breed.

And get a female first   Guardians breed males are far more aggressive and ... er... difficult control wise.   That goes as a generalisation for most LGDs.  You can always get a male later.  Also females tend to be better with the family (not always but most of the time).


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## Tapsmom (Mar 25, 2014)

Everyone is locked in the barn at night.  In the warmer weather I do let my horse go in and out but everyone else is locked up inside.  My question was about daytime.  We generally open up the barn around 8:30 and they are back inside by dusk.  The fence does have a heck of a charge (I've hit it by mistake and it hurts!)  and I am going to send my hubby around the perimeter ;-)  I know nothing is fool proof, but I am trying to make them as safe as possible.


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## Pips (Mar 25, 2014)

With your fence, a little marking by hubby and maybe allowing him to have a beer party and after three or four every beer drinker gets a post , during the day your risk is decreased by ten.  Here we have some wolves, bears, foxes, elk & Lynx.
I mention Elk because they can be very dangerous not just to humans but to livestock as well. plus love to break fences to get at fruit trees.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuff/9152820/Gang-of-drunken-elks-terrorise-homeowner
http://www.thelocal.se/20140224/swedish-countryside-slams-undemocratic-eu-wolf-hunt-ban
We have around 1200 wolves estimates by local park wardens, the article is not correct, but gives you an idea of how many predators we have to deal with.  Our own property borders on the woods that connect to every other forest and free land in Sweden, and sit in the predator corridor between the wolf populated areas and the boar populated areas. 

Day time is really not an issue, most predators prefer attacking at night, no sure about coyotes.

http://www.wildsweden.com/about/the-wild-animals/
I would also put up fence chimes so when it is pushed they tingle if you can but don't make noise in the wind.
And motion lights work really well if you get good ones that don't switch on when a mice runs past, even if locked up at night if any predators come sniffing after dark they will get spooked by the lights so make your days a lot safer.
Something like this http://www.amazon.com/Sunforce-82156-Solar-Motion-Light/dp/B0052SF0LO
I think you are fine if you do the above, lowering your risk a lot.
Nothing beats a guardian though tbh.  Kinda drops your risk, depending where you are and predator population down to just above zero.


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## pjmceadie (Jun 30, 2014)

Sorry to jump in at the end of a conversation, but I'm not computer savvy..
We just got 2 Nubian does and the fencing issue is worrying me. Dolly and Matilda have been in our garage, actually, while my husband has been trying to get the chicken/goat fence up. The fencing we have is 6' cedar and the enclosure is a wood enclosure that sits on the ground made of 2x4's and particle board. My concern is that these two are EXTREMELY noisy! They cry all the time, and I was wondering if we should be putting up some sort of electric system now after reading your posts. Tonight will be the first night they are locked in their makeshift barn. Is this satisfactory and if not, what should we put up? I am new to this so I have no idea what an LGD is?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!


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## HoneyDreameMomma (Jul 1, 2014)

pjmceadie said:


> My concern is that these two are EXTREMELY noisy! They cry all the time, and I was wondering if we should be putting up some sort of electric system now after reading your posts. Tonight will be the first night they are locked in their makeshift barn. Is this satisfactory and if not, what should we put up? I am new to this so I have no idea what an LGD is?
> Any help would be greatly appreciated!
> Thanks!



"LGD" stands for Livestock Guardian Dog.  There are many excellent threads on this site regarding choosing breeds, training techniques, etc.  Livestock Guardian Dogs can't be trained like a regular house dog - as Southern, one of Backyard Herd's LGD experts often says, they're almost like their own species.  

As a fairly new LGD owner (abt 2 years), I would highly suggest avoiding the urge to get an adorable puppy as your first guardian - unless you have a lot of time and patience on your hands.  If you can, get a trained, experienced adult dog.  Lol - then when you have a good adult dog, you can get a puppy...  (LGDs are so awesome - they are almost addictive! I was not really a 'dog person' until I had an LGD). 

We did the puppy thing first, and after months of trying several different training techniques (including consulting a professional trainer), we ended up trading our wild, somewhat agressive, chicken chasing 10-month old pup for a 4-year old Great Pyrenees.  What a difference!  It was such a stress relief to have a dog that took care of the goats without any drama. After we'd had him for several months, we decided to try the puppy thing one more time, because LGDs work well in teams.  We were careful to go to the breeders and observe the puppies for a significant amount of time before selecting one with a temperament that we wanted.  We actually ended up with two puppies, and because we had such a great adult LGD to help train them, I can honestly say that training the two of them has been 10X easier than training one puppy without an experienced adult LGD.  

I'm sure other people have had different experiences, but if you're interested in getting a Livestock Guardian Dog, I would definitely recommend a trained, proven adult for your first LGD.  They usually cost more, but I swear they are worth every penny!


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