# “CDT/CD&T” Vacs/ BoSe/VIT E SEL GEL/ B12 Discussion



## Sally Sunshine (May 8, 2017)

* “CDT” or “CD&T” vaccination for Clostridium perfringens type C + D and tetanus Discussion*


Questions and are Answers correct!!


Several companies make CDT vaccines and some of those include vaccines for additional clostridial diseases. Is there a preferred Brand to use and if so why? 
 
Schedule for Does: should be vaccinated for CDT approximately 30 days prior to giving birth to provide protection to the kids through the first milk, or colostrum.

Schedule for kids: should be vaccinated at 5 to 6 weeks of age and then given a booster three to four weeks later.

Breeding bucks, yearlings and other adults should get annual boosters 30 days prior to the breeding season or when others in the herd are given booster vaccines.

Some research has shown that goats might benefit from booster vaccinations twice a year, six months apart. Anyone do this?


*ADMINISTERING VACCINE INJECTION*
I am fairly sure Subcutaneous is for vaccines, HOWEVER do they always get a soft lump at the injection site? I know it goes away but I was amazed at the size our Nigeran dwarf kid had gotten from it.
WHAT SITES DO YOU FIND BEST TO INJECT FOR INTRA AND SUBQ?

I found this site for needle sizes etc.... 
http://articles.extension.org/pages/63184/goat-injections 
do you have a better link for them?  
*


 

 *

Are there any other vaccines that you would suggest? and why? 

*BoSe Questions: *Some education reads suggest giving along with CDT and others say that it SHOULD NOT be given to a pregnant doe as selenium has increased risks for abortion etc.  What is correct? And BoSe is a rx so will Vit E Selenium gel work the same? 

  All-natural vitamin E and selenium at proper levels for use in goats. Contains 500 IU vitamin E and 2.5 ppm selenium per 5 ml (max level of selenium for goats is 3 ppm per animal). Dosage for newborn goats is 2 ml. Dosage for adult goats is 4 ml. Administer once every 30 days. Palatable butterscotch flavor in a gel base. Vitamin E & Selenium Gel in a dial-a-dose tube is easy to administer.
*
Intramuscular Injections of Fortified B12*
Is this given with Vaccinations, on a schedule or just with sick and after multiple births? 
Dosage correct? 

Fortified B Complex- 
_2.5 mL per 50  pounds of body weight. May be repeated daily, if indicated. _


 

Thank you for the help everyone!


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## MikeLM (May 8, 2017)

Hi Sally! A vet comes out and performs blood draw, CD&T and gives BoSe shot approx 30 days before frost kidding. Not sure of difference between gel and Bone shot.


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## Kyanite (May 8, 2017)

Thank you for this! We are looking to get several kids in the very near future, but I haven't had goats since I was a kid. My Mom never did any of this. I know there's quirks to goats and am trying to gather as much info as possible. Mom says "just give them alfalfa and some grain." Not helpful! We have 5 acres. Small pasture, but awesome brushy hillside. I'm happy to let them graze as much as possible.


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## babsbag (May 9, 2017)

I give CDT 30 days before kidding and to the kids at 3 and 6 weeks (or close to it). I vaccinate my bucks at the same time as my does. I use Covexin 8 or Bar Vac brand of the CDT. Some goats get a lump and some don't. I use an 18-21 gauge needle depending on what I have at the moment. 

I live in a selenium deficient area so I used to give Bo-Se to all my adult goats at the same time as the CDT. I would often have to give it to newborn kids as well.  This got old with 40 goats so I started doing a different mineral, one they actually like, and started giving Multimin 90 injections every 4-6 months. This also took care of the copper.

I have never given Vit B to a goat so no help there. 

I give a pneumonia vaccine yearly as well.


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## Sally Sunshine (May 9, 2017)

Kyanite said:


> Thank you for this! We are looking to get several kids in the very near future, but I haven't had goats since I was a kid. My Mom never did any of this. I know there's quirks to goats and am trying to gather as much info as possible. Mom says "just give them alfalfa and some grain." Not helpful! We have 5 acres. Small pasture, but awesome brushy hillside. I'm happy to let them graze as much as possible.


  Awesome! Too bad your so far away, all our kids gotta go!  I will tag you when I load up my kidding info I am collecting, I have tons of questions as to what is right and whats wrong!


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## Sally Sunshine (May 9, 2017)

babsbag said:


> I give CDT 30 days before kidding and to the kids at 3 and 6 weeks (or close to it). I vaccinate my bucks at the same time as my does. I use Covexin 8 or Bar Vac brand of the CDT. Some goats get a lump and some don't. I use an 18-21 gauge needle depending on what I have at the moment.
> 
> I live in a selenium deficient area so I used to give Bo-Se to all my adult goats at the same time as the CDT. I would often have to give it to newborn kids as well.  This got old with 40 goats so I started doing a different mineral, one they actually like, and started giving Multimin 90 injections every 4-6 months. This also took care of the copper.
> 
> ...


  Thank you for replying!  I am pretty sure the small bottle I got is the covexin, I will read the label when I get it out today.  Gonna do everyone this day.  How do you get ahold of the BoSe?  I ended up buying the sel e gel.  I just recently had to copper bolous the adults. copasure I think it was called.  I pray it works, I noticed dryness and very rusty coat colors, tails were starting to do that v thing as well.  Have you every used....   

*Replamin gel* (vitamins and amino acid chelated minerals) for boosting immune systems and great for helping with side effects of copper deficiency *:* Replamin 2-5 cc per head depending on the weight.

or   (not sure if Bovi Sera is the same pneumonia shot your talking about? and it doesnt tell me if I should give adults the shot same time as kids... see below Bovi Sera) 

*Bovi Sera  *5 cc of to provide the essential antibodies the babies must have to build a strong immune system. *Inject subcutaneously or intramuscularly. PREVENTION  as soon after birth as possible.* Bovi Sera is an absolute MUST HAVE for any goat owner. Useful in the prevention and treatment of conditions such as pneumonia and enterotoxemia, passive immune failure in newborns and shipping fever complex in adults, Bova Sera provides an immediate boost to the immune system allowing goats to get back on their feet. Bovi Sera acts much the same as Goat Serum although goats are not listed on the label.  Dosage of 10 cc sub-Q injection for adults and 5 cc sub-Q injection for newborns  

I am reading so many goat owners love this stuff, the ratings are very cool to read about how much its helped herds.  If you dont mind can I tag you in all the info when I upload so you can read through and give opinions on what to use and what not to for kids and does?  I am very OCD and collect tons of info because I dont retain info in my head well at all. So NOTES have come into my life big time.  Thanks so much!


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## Sally Sunshine (May 9, 2017)

@OneFineAcre


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## misfitmorgan (May 9, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> * “CDT” or “CD&T” vaccination for Clostridium perfringens type C + D and tetanus Discussion*
> View attachment 32392
> Questions and are Answers correct!!
> 
> ...



We use Bar-Vac....simply because it is easily available locally, i have never seen anything that shows a different CDT is needed.

SubQ is correct, the lump shouldnt be to big because your only giving 1cc, we give it on the inside of the back leg or armpit and rub the injection spot to help the lump smooth out....we do the same thing for our dogs when we give them spring/rabies shots(on the back of the neck area for dogs).

We have never yet had to do a intra shot, we find the inner thigh to be the best for us esp on sheep as there is no fleece there.

We use the vitamin E and selenium gel, we only use it if the kid/lamb shows obvious signs of being selenium deficient and always dose the dam if we are dosing the offspring. We switched to a different loose mineral that they like better and have had far fewer problems with lacking selenium. We also give copper bolus once a year and we did give cobalt bolus to the does a few months ago.

We keep Vitamin B injectable on hand for sick/injured animals or just those who dont seem to be thriving sometimes. The dosage seems normal but all bottles/tubes should give you dosing and you should follow that as some brands will vary. The brand we use is 5ml per 100lbs,which is the same lol. Always check dosing even if it is something you have given many many times, the manufacturer could decide to change their "recipe" strength and you could be over dosing or giving to little. I would also note that we give Vitamin B SubQ not Intra and have not have any problems with it working.


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## misfitmorgan (May 9, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> Thank you for replying!  I am pretty sure the small bottle I got is the covexin, I will read the label when I get it out today.  Gonna do everyone this day.  How do you get ahold of the BoSe?  I ended up buying the sel e gel.  I just recently had to copper bolous the adults. copasure I think it was called.  I pray it works, I noticed dryness and very rusty coat colors, tails were starting to do that v thing as well.  Have you every used....
> 
> *Replamin gel* (vitamins and amino acid chelated minerals) for boosting immune systems and great for helping with side effects of copper deficiency *:* Replamin 2-5 cc per head depending on the weight.
> 
> ...



Bose is usually gotten thru your vet....which is why i use the gel. I have not used the pneumonia vaccine but i am trying to talk DH into it for next year. Copasture is the same brand we use for our copper and cobalt. We have not used Replamin.


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## Sally Sunshine (May 9, 2017)

Thank you so much!  inner thigh?  not the point just before it?


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## misfitmorgan (May 9, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> Thank you so much!  inner thigh?  not the point just before it?



We flip them over into a cush and give the injection on the bare skin of the inner upper thigh on the front end....if that makes any sense at all. Let me try to find a picture.


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## Sally Sunshine (May 9, 2017)

ok I am so confused at the vits suggested before and after for dams and kids  
I will start a thread for my kidding info and post link here if I can figure out how to.  
I would appreciate any help in figuring some of the stuff out I collected in the notes.  
I tried to get the info available too on the product but still I dont want to over dose on vits and mins or anything else.  I swear they throw vits in everything so there has to be one good one that has it all!


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## Sally Sunshine (May 9, 2017)

misfitmorgan said:


> We flip them over into a cush and give the injection on the bare skin of the inner upper thigh on the front end....if that makes any sense at all. Let me try to find a picture.


  bare with me this is all new lol  a Kush?  is that what the seat is called to trim sheep?  and will goats stay in a seat?    sorry knowing my spoiled cry baby goats this could be quite interesting doing that!


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## Sally Sunshine (May 9, 2017)

*BoSe/ e-sel* dosage to mom goats 4 weeks b4 kidding, and kids if chilled at birth.

*Selenium E Gel*  weak kids or kids with white muscle disease and more. The purpose of having selenium gel in the kidding kit is to administer an appropriate dosage to kids who display those symptoms. Newborn 2ml  ~ Adult 4ml  To be used once every 30 days.


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## misfitmorgan (May 9, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> bare with me this is all new lol  a Kush?  is that what the seat is called to trim sheep?  and will goats stay in a seat?    sorry knowing my spoiled cry baby goats this could be quite interesting doing that!


.
Cush is what you see them doing with sheep to shear them....goats kind of do it though fight way more lol.





The seats you mean i believe are "deck chairs"


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## misfitmorgan (May 9, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> *BoSe/ e-sel* dosage to mom goats 4 weeks b4 kidding, and kids if chilled at birth.
> 
> *Selenium E Gel*  weak kids or kids with white muscle disease and more. The purpose of having selenium gel in the kidding kit is to administer an appropriate dosage to kids who display those symptoms. Newborn 2ml  ~ Adult 4ml  To be used once every 30 days.



If you have a selenium problem verified  by a vet they generally give and recommend BoSe 4 weeks before birthing, that is generally verified thru tests. You can easily kill a goat or kid with BoSe if they dont need the selenium. 

To that end the over the counter selenium/vit E gel has less selenium and is indicated for use on kids already showing signs of selenium deficiency aka weak or white muscle disease. You can optionally treat the doe at this point as well because if the kid is deficient she is likely as well.

Dose that make anymore sense?


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## Sally Sunshine (May 9, 2017)

misfitmorgan said:


> .
> Cush is what you see them doing with sheep to shear them....goats kind of do it though fight way more lol.
> 
> 
> ...


  Those are hilarious!


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## Sally Sunshine (May 9, 2017)

yep makes sense! thank you!


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## OneFineAcre (May 9, 2017)

I give the Goat Vac that we can get from Tractor Supply.





We give to the does a month before kidding.  We usually give to our kids when they are 6-8 weeks old.  We aren't exact about everything.
We give the yearlings and the bucks their boosters in the spring about the same time we are giving the others.
We give ours sub q behind the shoulder.  After you give the injection you need to rub the skin at the site.  That avoids lumps, but sometimes we may get one the size of a pea.

We give BoSe injections.  We give ours about a month before the kid I believe.  I've never heard anything about that being a problem.
I think some people give a month before breeding.
We give B-12 when needed.
We also keep Thaimine, we've given that to kids who seemed weak.


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## misfitmorgan (May 9, 2017)

Be careful with the gel too though. A friend of ours had a goat kid showing signs of white muscle disease and i was out of gel so i ordered some and had it delivered to their house. I told them i didnt remeber the exact dosage but it was a tiny amount like the size of a pea. The day after the gel came they called and said the kid was acting worse and the doe who they also dosed suddenly couldnt walk or stand 

I went over there trying to figure out what was wrong, i asked about the gel. Their young son went and got the tube and my heart sank when i saw it. They used over half of the tube on a 100lb doe and a 5-6lb kid. I told them to call the vet right away because they had given the goats selenium poisoning....i was honestly really really angry. There is no way you can mistake a pea size amount for over half of the tube....its a big friggin tube. They refused to call the vet and told me maybe they will get better on their own, they of course did not. The doe and the kid both died.

I found out later the one who had dosed them was the son....he was 7yrs old and didnt understand how to read the measurements or what the dose ring was for. He just knew it was suppose to help the kid and figured it would help the doe feel better too, and if a little helped a lot must help more. If his dad would have been home when the gel arrived i don't think it ever would have happened but his mom was home and they have 5 kids and 7 dogs so its hectic there.

Anyhow just be careful with the gel.


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## misfitmorgan (May 9, 2017)

Sorry i should specify we use Vitamin B-12 Complex, so it has Thiamine, etc in it.
https://valleyvet.cvpservice.com/product/view/basic/1058052?u=country&p=msds


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## misfitmorgan (May 9, 2017)

OneFineAcre said:


> I give the Goat Vac that we can get from Tractor Supply.
> 
> View attachment 32466
> 
> ...



Our TSC only stocks the Bar-Vac....hence why we use it


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## Sally Sunshine (May 9, 2017)

Oh no! thats terrible! Morgan


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## babsbag (May 9, 2017)

misfitmorgan said:


> the lump shouldnt be to big because your only giving 1cc,



Pretty sure the dosage for CDT is 2cc regardless of the size of the animal.  

The pneumonia vaccine is this one. 
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail...6&cadevice=c&gclid=CP7t6t3V49MCFYRmfgodBxwGMw

I have read good things about the Bovi Sera but never tried it and have not heard of the Replamin Gel. When a person owns 40 goats you start to get the herd mentality and find what works with the least amount of time. If I can feed it to them, like minerals, then I am all over it. If I have to hands on, like copper bolus, then I look for another way.  I am thinking of trying minerals from Advanced Biological Concepts as I can buy minerals individually so they get more of what I am sure they need; mainly copper and selenium.


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## Sally Sunshine (May 9, 2017)

yes it was 2cc for all   Done deal, they had their shots! Thanks!


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## Sally Sunshine (May 9, 2017)

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/kidding-supply-list-and-notes.35939/


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## misfitmorgan (May 12, 2017)

babsbag said:


> Pretty sure the dosage for CDT is 2cc regardless of the size of the animal.
> 
> The pneumonia vaccine is this one.
> https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail...6&cadevice=c&gclid=CP7t6t3V49MCFYRmfgodBxwGMw
> ...




Sorry your right!! Good thing i read the label everytime before i give anything! I must have been thinking of Pen G or something cause i was thinking 1cc per 100lbs....but thats not for CDT 

It's been a long week


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## Sally Sunshine (May 12, 2017)

all went well no reactions.  Do any of you keep ep handy in case of an alergic reaction?  Its rx correct?


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## misfitmorgan (May 12, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> all went well no reactions.  Do any of you keep ep handy in case of an alergic reaction?  Its rx correct?



I do not, others might.


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## Sally Sunshine (May 12, 2017)

ok tks


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## babsbag (May 12, 2017)

I do have some epi, but never remember to take it to the barn when doing shots so it probably wouldn't do me much good.


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## MikeLM (May 12, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> all went well no reactions.  Do any of you keep ep handy in case of an alergic reaction?  Its rx correct?



No, I do not have an ep handy.


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## Sally Sunshine (May 12, 2017)

I know you have a vet handy, I dont have money or a vet handy


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## Kyanite (May 13, 2017)

Are reactions to vaccinations common in goats? I was once fairly practiced with subQ, and intramuscular with horses, and I have given insulin shots to my cat. I figure goats are in the middle! When we get ours, I'd like to do as much of that myself as possible. Is keeping epi on hand recommended? Will vets prescribe it preventatively if there's no history of reaction?


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## MikeLM (May 13, 2017)

Kyanite said:


> Are reactions to vaccinations common in goats? I was once fairly practiced with subQ, and intramuscular with horses, and I have given insulin shots to my cat. I figure goats are in the middle! When we get ours, I'd like to do as much of that myself as possible. Is keeping epi on hand recommended? Will vets prescribe it preventatively if there's no history of reaction?



No, it's not common. Goats are sensitive to anesthesia though.


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## norseofcourse (May 13, 2017)

Kyanite said:


> Are reactions to vaccinations common in goats? I was once fairly practiced with subQ, and intramuscular with horses, and I have given insulin shots to my cat. I figure goats are in the middle! When we get ours, I'd like to do as much of that myself as possible. Is keeping epi on hand recommended? Will vets prescribe it preventatively if there's no history of reaction?


I think allergic reactions to anything are fairly uncommon, but if it happens there's not time to get a vet out, you need to have the epi there.  I used to have it on hand when I did my horse's vaccines, but it expired years ago and I'd need to get it through a vet now.  I asked my horse vet once if I could get it through him, and he said no.  I should ask the vet I use for my sheep.


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## Sally Sunshine (May 13, 2017)

You know, I am thinking here.  I actually just bought dex (dexamethasone for allergic reaction) because I had a pup get vaccinosis and then pup strangles in Jan.  My vet said she didnt have any dex, which everyone thought odd, anyways I ordered it online to have in the fridge should I EVER run into that again, what a terrible time with that poor pup I had. Anyways, I wonder if that could be used as a sub to epinephrine.


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## Green Acres Farm (May 13, 2017)

We had a possible antibiotic reaction after an antibiotic shot at the vet on the way home. It was not an anaphylactic reaction. Long story short, our vet gave dexamethasone.


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## Sally Sunshine (May 13, 2017)

ahhhh great to know! I should get the dosage and keep with the bottle then for the goats along with the dogs, thank you @Green Acres Farm


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## Kyanite (May 13, 2017)

Thanks everyone for the replies. I'll talk to my vet about it. The vet we use for our household pets actually specializes in exotics and birds, but she has goats herself. We just put deposits down on two doelings today. They'll be receiving CDT vacc before coming home so I won't have to do vaccinations right away. But, the time will come!


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## Green Acres Farm (May 13, 2017)

Kyanite said:


> Thanks everyone for the replies. I'll talk to my vet about it. The vet we use for our household pets actually specializes in exotics and birds, but she has goats herself. We just put deposits down on two doelings today. They'll be receiving CDT vacc before coming home so I won't have to do vaccinations right away. But, the time will come!


That's really nice your vet has goats herself!


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## Sally Sunshine (May 13, 2017)

exciting! Please share them when you pick them up! @Kyanite  you may still need to give their booster shots at three weeks after their first!


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## Kyanite (May 13, 2017)

Thanks @Sally Sunshine, good to know! I'll definitely share tons of cute kid pics. They are twins, 1/2 alpine 1/2 nubian.


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## Sally Sunshine (May 30, 2017)

Question.....  The older kids I have need their booster shot of CDT can I still give it to them even though I have newborn kids around now?  just wondering because of that live virus stuff and I really dont get all this vaccination stuffs!  Thanks!!!  I assume ya, but its best not to assume with much now adays!  Thanks!


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## misfitmorgan (May 30, 2017)

It shouldn't be a problem to vaccinate the older kids even with younger kids around. Just make sure they are getting both doses 21-28 days apart.

They only need one shot booster yearly after the initial 2 doses.


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## Sally Sunshine (May 30, 2017)

danke!


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## misfitmorgan (May 30, 2017)

Bitte Schon


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## Sally Sunshine (May 30, 2017)

@misfitmorgan  first set of kids came did ya see?????   https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/kidding-supply-list-kidding-notes.35939/page-8#post-506396


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## misfitmorgan (May 30, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> @misfitmorgan  first set of kids came did ya see?????   https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/kidding-supply-list-kidding-notes.35939/page-8#post-506396



Nooooo i completely missed it!! They are so cute, Congrats to you


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## Liberty (Aug 28, 2017)

I have a doe going to kid in a month or so. She's never had CDT before. Will it hurt if I give her it now and again in 4 weeks.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 28, 2017)

Liberty said:


> I have a doe going to kid in a month or so. She's never had CDT before. Will it hurt if I give her it now and again in 4 weeks.


No, and it is always a good idea to give it a month before kidding.


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## Liberty (Aug 29, 2017)

Thanks


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## Tracy Jones (Apr 20, 2022)

misfitmorgan said:


> Bose is usually gotten thru your vet....which is why i use the gel. I have not used the pneumonia vaccine but i am trying to talk DH into it for next year. Copasture is the same brand we use for our copper and cobalt. We have not used Replamin.


I’m sure this post is outdated, but jic someone reads it again,  Misfitmorgan,   I’m wondering for what ? and how ? you use te cobalt ?  I’ve read a book by Pat ??? someone …. (Can’t recall now) and all of the questions I was having were answered in her book about vitamin c shots, dolomite,  and known negators for various necessary levels  (calcium: phosphorus), (copper over 1650 ppm in mineral), and I remember something about cobalt.   My aim is to not see my herd coming in all exhausted and bloated,  anemic and faded looking,  wiry hair and missing hair in between regular copper bolusing,  and deworming only to those whose famacha scores indicate the a wormload resulting in pale inner eyelids.   It is a very hard thing to keep the various life cycles (2 weeks to 10 years) all in the correct ratios,  and balance the mineral, feed, browse, forage, hay & copper  in line.  been doing it a long time…..  and it seems to only get harder !   Please answer if you happen to get this!   Tracy tjmaker.extraordinaire@gmail.com.


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