# Traumatized Orphan Kid Rescue



## bbredmom (Aug 11, 2010)

My friends, who I am highly irritated with right now, brought me a goat that the herd had rejected because his mom had died. He was also about a year old. That's all I knew when I agreed to take him in. My goats are happy, friendly, love everyone and everything goats. 

They bring over this baby buckling ya'll. I straight up said "That goat is not even 6 months yet". (His hooves were still soft)

"Oh, well maybe he was born in April"

"Well, when did his mom die?"

"Oh....June?"

"was he still nursing?!?"

"Well, yeah, but he was eating grass too."

"Did you wean him with a bottle or anything?"

"No, we figured he would be fine, but he's really been going down hill and the other goats pick on him."

This little guy doesn't want to stand. He's almost comatose. My Pygmy Doe Metis immediatly starting sniffing him and laying her head over his shoulders, but she also wants to play with him. But she butts him, and he just falls down and stays down.

I'm so mad and I dont know what to do. I've put him on my porch, which seperates him from roughhousing, but he can still talk and see the other goats. He's got lots of clean water with some gatorade for electrolites, some goat chow, and I pulled up some green stuff from the yard.

I dewormed him with safeguard and overmectin, but I think he has lungworm. I asked when the last time they dewormed was..

"Oh, we haven't done that. They all seem healthy"

"What about CDT?"

"Whats that?"

These are educated professionals who got into goats because I did and they think its "cool".

What else should I do? Should I give him a little milk, very thin, just so he can be properly weaned? He's just the most tragic little thing I've ever seen. 

I'm so mad.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 11, 2010)

It sounds like you pretty much have everything covered. Do you have hay to offer him? Maybe offer him some hay. It will take a while for him to gain weight and you don't want him gaining weight fast anyway. 

Some people shouldn't own animals. Hopefully they will get tired of it and sell their herd. Sounds like their goats are getting poor care. I can understand your frustration and anger.


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## glenolam (Aug 11, 2010)

Sounds like you have a right to be mad.  Good for you to be willing enough to give him a chance.

If he was born in April, then he's at most 4 mos old; however, if his mama died in June, then he would have been forceably weaned anywhere from 4 weeks to 8 weeks (depending on when he was born and the mother died....).

I think you should hit him up with Probios and a B Complex shot.  Give him his CD&T vaccination and start treating him for coccidia - as it's more than likely they didn't do that either.  From what I've seen posted on here before, he's at the right age for coccidia to make him go down quickly.  Red Cell would probably work as well.

Why do you think he has lung worms?  If he does, the ivomec _should_ take care of that.

If he hasn't been on milk for a while now, I'm not sure that giving him any will help, but someone else with more experience will hopefully chime in.

Good luck with that little guy...I hope he pulls through!


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## cmjust0 (Aug 11, 2010)

First off, you seriously need to STOP WASTING TIME ON ANGER right now.  Anger isn't going to help the situation, yet it takes loads of time and energy...therefore, it's _wasteful_.  So, you're going to have to get really clinical and objective -- like, _right now_ -- and take your own anger toward the previous owners completely out of the explanation of what the hell's going on..  

Your anger just caused you to say he was "almost comatose," only to turn around and indicate that he can stand -- at least long enough to get knocked down.  Now, I've seen almost-comatose goats before, and I've seen weak goats before, and there's a big difference.  And since I can't see the goat to know what's really happening and what's being embellished in anger, I'm consequently in _less_ of a position to give advice.



Having said that...

You said you think he might have lungworm, which I take to mean he's coughing.  Yes?  No?  You didn't say...  If he does have a cough, consider that he's also been stressed.  To me, a stressed out kid is FAR more likely to have pneumonia than lungworm.  

Check his temp...  If he's running a fever, start him on antibiotics ASAP.


Now...as for the basics...is he eating anything?  Is he drinking on his own?  Is he pooping and peeing OK?  How much does he weigh?  Are his inner eyelids super pale or white?  Are his upper eyelids supple, or do they tent up for a second if you pinch them...which would indicate dehydration..?  Temperature?  Can he get up on his own, or do you have to stand him up?  

Remember -- objective and clinical -- no anger.  Tell us what's going on or we can't help you.


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## bbredmom (Aug 11, 2010)

Alright, by almost comatose, I meant unresponsive. You push him he falls over. You stand him up, he just stands there. I have not seen him get up on his own. No inclination to do anything on his own. 

They brought him over at 10:00 last night, and I left the house at 6:0 AM0, so I haven't had a chance to check his eyelids. His skin does not tent very much, so while he is not dehydrated, he has probably not been getting enough to drink, and its been over 100 degrees here for at least two weeks. 

I have seen him pee once, its was dribbly, and I have not seen him poop. He is eating on his own, I have not seen him drink, but again, I haven' had a lot of time to spend around him.

Lungworm is a problem around here, I've had almost every goat I've rescued had it, and I've had it confirmed by a goat vet. The lungworm cough is different from a pneumonia cough.

I appreciate what you are saying, but I also think its ok to be angry about these things for a while. I didn't allow myself to get angry last night or this morning or I would not have been able to think rationally on how to help him. However, once I was at work and began writing a list of what was wrong with him, I got mad. At least I got mad here, with people who would understand (I hope) and not at the people who brought him over that I also work with.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 11, 2010)

A skinny goat doesn't usually have enough slack in the skin to get a proper 'tent check'...trust me when I tell you that upper eyelids are the only way to check for dehydration in a goat.  I learned that lesson about a half a day too late.

To me, he sounds either feverish, or just extremely weak..  Or both..  The weakness could be from dehydration, lack of nutrition/bloodsugar, anemia (from worms, coccidia, sucking lice), etc..  

I'd start by checking for a fever.  If he has one, definitely get him on antibiotics.  If it's a high fever...like, >105...I'd also use Banamine to get the fever down.  Banamine dosage is 1ml/100lbs, so you're probably talking fractions of a ml..  

And, frankly...since he's so rough already...I'd probably just go on and start him on some PenG regardless of his body temp.  Some folks will probably BOO! that recommendation on account of antibiotic overuse or the "throw the whole med cabinet at it!" mentality or whatever, but the reality is that he's already compromised..  If he doesn't have an infection right this second, he's pretty ripe to pick one up.  I'd be more concerned about that right now than possibly contributing to the somewhat nebulous "cause" that is _antibiotic resistance avoidance_..  That's me, though..  Dosage I use on PenG is 1ml/15lbs of bodyweight, 2x/day for at least a week through an 18ga needle..

You've already treated him with Ivomec..  That should be sufficient to treat for lungworms, if he has those.  And by sufficient, I mean...it's about all you _can_ do.  

Ivomec+Safe-Guard should also help with the worm situation, which is highly likely to be a serious problem for him -- especially given the fact that he was _weaned *early* on *pasture* in *summer* and *never dewormed*_, and that his mama almost certainly wasn't dewormed appropriately to deal with the "periparturient rise" of barberpole egg production.  She probably lived just long enough to contaminate the hell out of everything before she died...leaving junior to pick up right where she left off as the new worm host.

The Ivomec dosage (Ivomec 1% injectable) I use for worms is 1ml/25lbs of bodyweight, given orally.  The safe-guard dosage I use now is about 1ml/10lbs, given 1x/day for three straight days.

I'd probably let him go for about a week after that and hit him w/ something stronger...cydectin or levasole, perhaps.

Since he's in the right age range for coccidia and almost certainly hasn't had any treatment for it...and has been stressed severely...I'd also get him on DiMethox if you have it handy.  If not, most folks can find Sulmet locally..  I'd get him on one of those two drugs, with the dosage being about 25mg/lb of bodyweight 1x/day for 5 days.  If all you can find is CoRid...I've never used it, but some folks here say it works well if used in WAAAAAY high doses.  

If he's anemic -- which I wouldn't doubt a bit -- I'd probably accompany all this with a round of Red Cell.  I've personally given kids in the 30lb range a 6ml syringe full everyday for a week with good results.  

If he's dehydrated, hydrate _proactively_..  Either drench with electrolytes at a rate of about 30ml at a time until he demonstrates that he'd rather choke to death than swallow another drop, or -- preferably, IMHO -- by administering lactated ringer's solution SQ.  I'd probably shoot for saddlebagging about 100ml across the ribs on each side...200ml, total.  If you can't get that much in before he looks like he's gonna pop, so be it....do what you can.  If he's big enough that can do more, do it.  When that soaks in, do it again.  Do it until he won't sit for it anymore.

As for the lack of C/D-T vaccination...that's not great, but I wouldn't do much about it right now.  He's sick -- I don't vaccinate sicklings.  Not only will his ability to muster an appropriately helpful immune response be iffy, any immune response he DID muster would just add to the stress..  WHEN (  ) he gets better, vaccinate him.

Otherwise...b-complex is good, and fairly innocuous.  Coccidia live on the stuff, though, so do give it SQ.  I say that because I see references to giving it orally.  

Umm...Bo-Se?  Dunno about the selenium status of your area, but lots of places are severely deficient.  Even if a goat's not clinically deficient of Selenium, my experience has been that a Bo-Se shot can be a perker-upper.

That's about all I can think of right now...

1)  Get a temp...if fever, I'd give banamine to reduce it (1ml/100lbs)
2)  Hydration/electrolytes...check upper eyelids; act accordingly.
3)  PenG...1ml/15lbs 2x/day for a week through an 18ga needle.
4)  More Safe-Guard...1ml/10lbs for two more days.
5)  DiMethox/Sulmet...25mg/lb for 5 days.
6)  Red Cell...I did 6ml on 30lb kids for a week; still alive.
7)  B-complex...picker upper
8)  Possibly Bo-Se...possible deficiency/picker-upper.


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## freemotion (Aug 11, 2010)

As soon as you get home, spend some time watching him so you can describe everything in detail here for the more experienced folks to be able to help you.

I'd keep him very separate from your other goats until you figure out what is going on.  Both for his sake and for the other goat's safety.

Everyone will be watching this thread for:

Poo amount, color, texture...
More details on pee...
Inner eyelid color...
Will he drink anything at all...
Has he eaten anything at all...
Will he eat a delicious tree leaf when offered?  Try apple, sugar maple, birch, all extra yummy to goats.
What is his temp?  Respiration rate?  Pulse?
Can you get a fecal sample to a vet?  Or to someone with a microscope?
Can you find out more specifically when he was born?


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## glenolam (Aug 11, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> 5)  DiMethox/Sulmet...25mg/lb for 5 days.


Just wanted to highlight that CM uses the 40% solution (correct, cm??).  I use 12.5% and give it orally at 1ml/5lbs day 1, then 1ml/10lbs day 2-5, repeat again in 3 weeks, then a third dose three weeks after that.  I think the general idea is that kids be treated for coccidia at 3 weeks, 6 weeks, and 9 weeks - or there and about.


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## bbredmom (Aug 11, 2010)

Thank you everyone. I will admit I got angry. But in my defense, as someone who last all of her herd except one baby this past february in a barn fire, so see someone so Severly neglect and not appreciate what they have just makes me angry.

He isn't skinny yet, but I bet when the worms get out of his belly, he will be. I always like to use BOSS and beet root to help boost them as well.

Lets go down the list...

1)  Get a temp...if fever, I'd give banamine to reduce it (1ml/100lbs)

I can have my hubby check his fever when he gets home. I've always used Ibuprofen to reduce fever, crushed and liquified, then drenched. Leraned that after Metis my doe decided to high wire on barb wire

2)  Hydration/electrolytes...check upper eyelids; act accordingly.

This is not a problem. I've never seen a dehydrated goat turn down water with gatorade. I figure a little extra sugar wont hurt in this case.

3)  PenG...1ml/15lbs 2x/day for a week through an 18ga needle.

I've got PenG. Check. and 18g needles. Check.

4)  More Safe-Guard...1ml/10lbs for two more days.

This morning I gave him one turn of the ring, whats that about 100#? He doesn't weigh more than 25 pounds, but I will weigh him for sure tonite.

5)  DiMethox/Sulmet...25mg/lb for 5 days.
6)  Red Cell...I did 6ml on 30lb kids for a week; still alive.
7)  B-complex...picker upper

Are All these available at TSC? OR do I need to call the vet?

8)  Possibly Bo-Se...possible deficiency/picker-upper.

We do not have a selenium nor copper deficiency problem here, luckily. I can pick up one of those goat nutrient buckets to get some copper in his system faster, if you think it will help.

And I have no way to find out exactly when he was born. They bought him and his momma when he was a week old, and of course just remember it was in April, sometime. He did chow down on the goat chow. I will offer him some leaves when I get home, or have hubby do it.

I just hope he is ok when I get home...


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## glenolam (Aug 11, 2010)

DiMethox might not be available at the feed stores, but Sulmet sometimes is.  I got my Dimethox on-line from Hoeggar's and it came about 5 days after I ordered it.

Red Cell and B Complex are both available at TSC or most feed stores.  The Red Cell would be in the horse section - my local TSC sold it by the gallon, so it cost me about $22.

I'm sorry to hear you lost all your other goats - I'm sure no one meant to be critical, but most members just want to be sure they have all the facts before replying with help.


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## bbredmom (Aug 11, 2010)

Oh, I know no one was putting me down or anything. I needed to be brought back to earth.

Sorry, I've got that classic Irish Girl temper, especially when it comes to my babies. And now I'm uber-duber super protective of them. 

uber-doober. I tried to convince my husband to let Patches (the kid) sleep in our bedroom last night. He very kindly and gently said no.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 11, 2010)

glenolam said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I use the 40% injectable as a drench...  It's 400mg/ml.  There's also the 12.5% solution, which is 125mg/ml.  Then there are oblets...and powder...and name-brand Albon, which is apparently a different % formulation..

That's why I post a 25mg per pound dosage instead of an __ml/__lb dosage...that way, whatever form you get, you can figure out how much of it makes 25mg and do the math from there.

I don't do the big dose day 1/half dose days 2-5 thing either.  Probably should, but I do well enough to remember what day of the week it is, let alone what _today's_ dosage should be.


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## glenolam (Aug 11, 2010)

Still haven't gotten that smart phone?!?  I end up putting it in my phone calendar and set the reminders!


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## cmjust0 (Aug 11, 2010)

bbredmom said:
			
		

> Thank you everyone. I will admit I got angry. But in my defense, as someone who last all of her herd except one baby this past february in a barn fire,






> so see someone so Severly neglect and not appreciate what they have just makes me angry.


Good.  Me too.  

I'm somewhat prone to frustratation too, as you can probably see from my reply.





> He isn't skinny yet, but I bet when the worms get out of his belly, he will be. I always like to use BOSS and beet root to help boost them as well.
> 
> Lets go down the list...


Beet root, or beet pulp?  

Watch the phosphorus in boss.  Adding phosphorus to a ration throws off the Ca ratio, which can be dangerous.  

I will say, though, that I've long suspected beet pulp to be a good way to offset phosphorus, as it's very high in calcium..  I've never actually used it, though...had someone tell me once that they swell up like bullfrogs on beet pulp, unless you soak it.

And, like I said...I do well to remember what day of the week it is, let alone find myself with time to soak beet pulp.  



> 1)  Get a temp...if fever, I'd give banamine to reduce it (1ml/100lbs)
> 
> I can have my hubby check his fever when he gets home. I've always used Ibuprofen to reduce fever, crushed and liquified, then drenched. Leraned that after Metis my doe decided to high wire on barb wire


I've done that, too..  Er, well, actually I squoze (  ) the contents of...several...advil liquid-gel into water and drenched it.  

He didn't die, but I dunno how much good it did either.  Personally, I tend to reserve oral meds for GI problems.  Goats don't seem to absorb anything very well through the GI.

If you can get banamine, get it...or, if you have to go to the vet, see if you can talk them out of a little hit of Ketofen for a few bucks more.    If I could afford a bottle of Ketofen (>$200/100ml), I'd get it...but, alas, I raise goats and therefore AM ALWAYS BROKE...so, I keep banamine..



> 2)  Hydration/electrolytes...check upper eyelids; act accordingly.
> 
> This is not a problem. I've never seen a dehydrated goat turn down water with gatorade. I figure a little extra sugar wont hurt in this case.


Unless they're too sick to drink on their own..  But if they've still got their heads screwed on straight, you're right -- they'll nose floating poop pellets out of the way to drink water before they'll let themselves actually get dehydrated.

I know that, because I know people who exploit that fact in very unfortunate ways.  :/



> 3)  PenG...1ml/15lbs 2x/day for a week through an 18ga needle.
> 
> I've got PenG. Check. and 18g needles. Check.






> 4)  More Safe-Guard...1ml/10lbs for two more days.
> 
> This morning I gave him one turn of the ring, whats that about 100#? He doesn't weigh more than 25 pounds, but I will weigh him for sure tonite.


Ahh..you're using the paste.  I use the liquid.  Pay no attention to the weights/dosages on the label, btw...they're WAY underdosed..  The oral suspension I use is 100mg/ml, and I give 1ml/10lbs...which means 10mg/lb..  So...if he's 25lbs, he'd get 250mg.

However many turns of the ring gets you 250mg, turn it that many times.  



> 5)  DiMethox/Sulmet...25mg/lb for 5 days.
> 6)  Red Cell...I did 6ml on 30lb kids for a week; still alive.
> 7)  B-complex...picker upper
> 
> Are All these available at TSC? OR do I need to call the vet?


Last I saw at my local TSC, the only Sulmet they had was in the form of a 5g bolus...that's 5000mg.  Your guy, if he's 25lbs, would need about 625mg on day one.

In other words...one bolus would be enough for an entire week's treatment, and the boluses come in a bottle of 50...for $65.  Which sucks.

It *might* be cheaper to get like three days worth of Albon (one 625mg syringe full + two 350mg or so syringes full) until your shipment of DiMethox from Jeffers/Valley/PBS comes in.

I assume you're catchin' my drift on that?  

TSC should carry Red Cell over in the horse stuff, and they should definitely have b-complex.  



> 8)  Possibly Bo-Se...possible deficiency/picker-upper.
> 
> We do not have a selenium nor copper deficiency problem here, luckily. I can pick up one of those goat nutrient buckets to get some copper in his system faster, if you think it will help.


You're lucky..  It was just as a just-in-case sorta thing if you were in a deficient area, so I'd just skip right over that for now if you're good on Se..



> And I have no way to find out exactly when he was born. They bought him and his momma when he was a week old, and of course just remember it was in April, sometime. He did chow down on the goat chow. I will offer him some leaves when I get home, or have hubby do it.
> 
> I just hope he is ok when I get home...


Eating's good..  

Keep us posted.


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## bbredmom (Aug 13, 2010)

Sorry for the delay, I was home sick yesterday with no internet.

Ok, he is doing much better! His temp on Wednesday was 104.5, So I gave him a little Ibuprofen. By the evening it was back down to 102.5. He is eating and drinking like crazy. His pee is getting a stronger stream, and his poop is suprisingly healthy. And a lot of it! Firm, moist, seperate little balls. No runny poo or dry clumps. 

I put him out in the pasture for a bit yesterday and supervised him and Metis. She was very happy to see him, nuzzled his head and neck, and then head butted him of course. He fell over, but got up on his own and very weakly pushed back on her! She pushed him over twoce more, and by the second time he was too tired to get up. So I shooed her away, put him on his feet, let him graze a little more, and then put him back in the "hospital".

Wednesday he drank over a gallon of water on his own. His eyelids were white yall, the plaest I've ever seen eyelids in person. And obviously he was dehydrated. I changed out his water and added fruit punch Gatorade, which he likes quite a bit, but he hasn't drank near as much, just a normal amount for a goat his size. And man, has be been peeing. Oy!

He's talking to me now, and his wormy belly is definitely going down, which unfortunately just shows how bony he is. I think tonite we may give him just a little milk, just a little, more to see if it will perk him up emotionally than anything else.

He is doing better though. Thank you for your help, I'll let you know how he is doing.


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## glenolam (Aug 13, 2010)

Glad to hear he's doing better!  Have you given him any of the wormers or b complex/red cell?  That might also help perk him up a bit.


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## bbredmom (Aug 13, 2010)

Yes, I've been keeping to the wormer regimen, but I didn't want to give him any "boosters" until I saw how healthy his poop was. If it was bad, I didn't want to possibly upset his tummy more. And since I was in bed for a good portion of yesterday, I didn't get any. But I'm going to go to TSC today and at least get some red cell.


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## bbredmom (Aug 13, 2010)

He didn't make it. I checked on him when I got home at one, he was eating drinking pooping and with a good temp. His color was even a smudge better in his eyelids. 

At four he was dead. I don't know what happened. DH grew up with goats and thinks maybe he just didn't have the will. 

And now I will question everything I did and if I could have done differently.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 13, 2010)




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## cmjust0 (Aug 13, 2010)

I'm really, really, really sorry to hear that.  

It wasn't anything you did or didn't do that caused this...you actually _did_ stuff.  Helpful stuff.  Stuff his previous owners didn't know or care enough to do.

You only had him for...what...two and a half days?  For one to go that quickly tells me it was already too late when they brought him to you.  

I know you will anyway, but you don't deserve to hurt over this..  I think it's only fair to lay the blame for this one squarely at the feet of the numbskulls who delivered him to you in the shape he was in..  They're the ones who should feel bad -- not you.  

I dunno if this will help or not, but maybe you can think of it this way..._you actually cared_, and having someone care about them is more than a whole lot of little goats get before they pass away.  In that way, at the very least, you made one little goat's short life better than it would otherwise have been.


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## DonnaBelle (Aug 13, 2010)

Cm... well said.

DonnaBelle


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## Hykue (Aug 13, 2010)

You were clearly doing your best, and that's all any of us can do.  I'm so sorry it didn't work out.  It still won't do any good, but now might just be a better time for anger - it might make you feel better.  And you might be able to let the anger motivate you to educate the people you got him from.  Don't let the anger show through (very much) as that will only make them think you are their enemy, but it might make you feel better to wait a few days (at least) until you can be diplomatic about it, and then talk to them (or write them a note) about goat care.

I'm not sure that's a good idea . . . it probably will have no effect, honestly, but in such situations it makes me feel better to feel like I at least TRIED to change people's minds.  I can't remember from the original post if these were friends of yours or not . . . anyway, just a thought.

I wish those of us that cared were able to always fix the negligence of others - when something like this happens it makes it painful to care.


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## jlbpooh (Aug 13, 2010)

OH how sad. I was rooting for him so much. You tried very hard and loved him for probably the first time ever in his little life. At least his last days were happy ones for him. RIP little guy! If there were more people that cared in the world like you, there would be less traumatic endings for poor little helpless animals. Thank you on behalf of responsible animal owners everywhere for what you did.


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## bbredmom (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks everyone. I work with the roommate of the woman who actually owns the goats. Roomie answered my phone call when the owner couldnt so she came over and buried him.

I do feel better about what I could do for him, and y;alls words and my hubbys words helped a lot.

The roomie is going to try and convince the owner that she shouldn't have goats anymore. She's been trying to for months apparently, but owner wont listen and gets pissed. So I sent home a list of what all was wrong with Patches, assuming the other ten goats have the smae issues to certain degrees.


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## Araylee (Sep 3, 2010)

That is SO SAD!!! RIP little guy. It really sucks that they brought him to you WAY too late to be able to help. If a person has livestock, they darn well better be willing to get an education on how to care for their animals. And if not, then don't have 'em. If this kid is indicative of their entire herd's health in general, it won't be long before the others are dropping like flies as well. They won't want to actually have to watch (and DEAL with) the deaths they've caused, so maybe that will be the impetus for them to get rid of everybody.


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## glenolam (Sep 3, 2010)

bbredmom - I completely missed the end of this story and I'm sorry that he didn't make it!  You did try your best and it is nice to hear that at least the roommate cared enough to bury him.


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