# We lost one today.



## 20kidsonhill (Jun 8, 2012)

Hello:
I thought I would post for educational purposes. 

We have a 4 month old doeling in very good health, about 65 lbs, no history of any scours(runny poop).  As of yesterday morning, we found her standing in the corner, horrible scours,  head hanging, tail down, sunken in. She was eating and no scours the evening before. I have been walking behind and checking all the goats bottoms, twice a day during feeding. It has been very very wet here and we have been battling parasites this spring. 


I could tell right away the scours were different and she was very very sick. 
Scours were slimy, light tan, and pouring out of her. I did not take a temp. because it is obvious she was very sick. Husband said he saw scours on the ground with blood in them. 

Initially we started treating for coccidiosis(in the morning), but by the afternoon we decided we were dealing with a *very bad case of e-coli* or possible *Salmonella* and switched treatments. 

She is receiving for the *treatment of e-coli*

*Neomycin orally*, I had a powdered bag, so I am following directions on the package. 
*kaolin-pectin*: this is a livestock grade of pepto-bismo. Pepto-bismo would also work, maybe even better. 
*vitamin B complex shots*:  This is important, with her stomach shutting down she needs thiamin.

and a product called *bovi-sera serum or polyserum*, http://www.jefferslivestock.com/product.asp?pn=0034941&camid=LIV
This is not the exact one I am using, since our co-op sells a similar product under a different label. We are giving her 8 cc's twice a day. 

The bovi-sera product(or equivalent brand) is suppose to be a wonder drug with just about any sick animal. I have talked to several people about this product and  they rave about it for cattle, sheep and goats. It isn't labeled for goats.

the one thing I really wish I had was *lactating rings for hydrating* her.  I need to add that to my medicine cabinet for emergencies.  she was very very dehydrated in just 5 or 6 hours

I plan on adding* probios t*o the treatment after we stop giving her the neomycin.

Edited to add: We are adding *Draxxin* to our treatment plan. This is RX.  All the above medications I have mentioned are OTC, except the lactating rings are RX.


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## Goatherd (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for that excellent information.  I do hope your kid recovers quickly and without further problems.


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## Roll farms (Jun 8, 2012)

Goatherd said:
			
		

> Thanks for that excellent information.  I do hope your kid recovers quickly and without further problems.


x 2.  Good luck w/ her!


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## lilhill (Jun 8, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Goatherd said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


X3


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 8, 2012)

Thank you for the best wishes. 
We treated her intensely through the afternoon and evening, and let her get some rest from 11 pm to 6:30 am, and gave her another round of treatments and drenches. I just checked on her and she is up munching on some hay. She is in an isolation/sick pen. Still doesn't seem to care that she is by herself. You always know a goat is sick when you put them by themselves and they don't complain. 

We will stop the kaolin-pectin, assuming there are no more signs of active scours and continue the other treatments for a couple more days. I am thinking I need to do the neomycin for at least 24 hours after the scouring stops and she is looking better. I need to research that a little more. 

I am looking into putting her on an injectable antibiotic, since she is developing congestion and a very runny nose.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jun 8, 2012)

Poor thing.  Hoping for a quick recovery.


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## ThreeBoysChicks (Jun 8, 2012)

Hope she pulls through..


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## elevan (Jun 8, 2012)

Thank you for sharing your experience.

Here were the instructions for neomycin when we were dealing with a calf last year - Continue treatment for 24-48 hrs beyond remission of disease symptoms, but not more than 14 consecutive days for bacterial scours.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 8, 2012)

I have a vet that is going to call me back when he gets into the office to discuss what dosage Nuflor. And get me a dose for her.  They said I could come in and get a bottle of 100 cc for $65, or just purchase just the dosage for her. I didn't ask how much for that. I will be annoyed if they charge me a lot of just a few cc's.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 8, 2012)

elevan said:
			
		

> Thank you for sharing your experience.
> 
> Here were the instructions for neomycin when we were dealing with a calf last year - Continue treatment for 24-48 hrs beyond remission of disease symptoms, but not more than 14 consecutive days for bacterial scours.


Thanks,  What a nasty little bug or I should say bacteria.  I am sure she would have been dead by the end of the day, had we not intensely treated her. Going from looking normal 12 hours earlier to almost dead is a pretty aggressive illness.  I am 95% sure I didn't over look her during the evening feeding and miss her being off feed or having scours.


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## redtailgal (Jun 8, 2012)

What made you decide that it was E-coli and not cocci?


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 8, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> What made you decide that it was E-coli and not cocci?


I've treated lots of cocci cases, and I have never seen a goat get this sick, so fast.  You could see she was getting worse by the hour, watery scours was steady oozing out of her.  Plus we had been treating fairly consistently for coccidiosis. They have medicated feed, and we have been putting medication in the water every 28 days. I treated her in the morning for coccidiosis, because that was my first thought. And I saw no response, she was looking a lot worse 4 hours later. 

I know fecals would be a good idea. 

I am sure the vet I just talked to would have recommended fecals instead of guessing. But by the time I would have gotten the sample in and the results back, she probably would have been dead. 


Vet recommended *Draxxin instead* of Nuflor. So we are going to go get a dose for her. For sure not getting  a bottle of that. He said it was $350.00


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## redtailgal (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for clarifying that 20kids.

Yeah, fecals are always a good idea, but its hard to get one done quickly at times.  I'm fortunate to have Doc at my beck and call usually, but when he is out of town, I am out of luck.  With goats, ya just do what you have to do.  That makes thread like  this very valuable!


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 8, 2012)

One of our vets said we shouldn't over look salmonella as a possble cause. So I guess a better discription of her condition would be a *bacterial scours *and not just limiting it to E-coli.


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## bonbean01 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for sharing your experience and the learning for all of us...really hope it all turns out great 

A question...what causes e-coli?  And how to prevent that?

Rolls...so great you knew to fly into treatment action so quickly!!!!  That wait and see approach can have bad outcomes.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 8, 2012)

as far as the cause,  I really have no idea.   She is with several goats, no one else is sick.  There were no changes in her routine or feed.  I do know things like coccidiosis , e-coli ect.... are all around us and our system is what keeps the level down and doesn't allow it to bloom.  e-coli is very opportunistic and will take advantage of a stressed out or weakened system. But as far as I know this doeling was very healthy and they aren't over crowded.  There is 16 kids and 2 adults in that field on 3 acres, with good shelter.   I did sell her sister last week. Maybe that could be considered a stress factor. I didn't notice her moping around, but I am sure they had a strong bond.  

or who knows, maybe she ate a leaf with bird poop on it infected with something
Or mouse droppings 
ect.....


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## elevan (Jun 8, 2012)

Please do keep us updated 20kids.  I added this thread to the Emergencies / Disease Index in the Emergencies forum.


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## Roll farms (Jun 9, 2012)

A friend of mine had a kid scour horribly a few years ago.  I suggested e coli and she poo-poohed the idea....her kid pen was *spotless* and thought it was impossible.



After 2 day she finally treated w/ scour halt and the kid died screaming on the way to the vet a few hrs later.  When she finally treated, the bacteria had bloomed exponentially in her gut, and when she gave the meds, they died off at the same time and started rotting.  She went septic fast and died.

Point being....fast action will save them.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 9, 2012)

She is doing better, we left her out of the pen this morning after treating her. She was crying and wanting to get out . 

We gave her Draxxin yesterday, and now we are giving her B-complex twice a day, and bovi-sera one time a day(7cc), and we gave her some probiotics. We stopped giving her the neomycin and the kaolin-pectin. 

We have two more scouring as of this morning.   I would have been glad to do a fecal, except were the heck on a Saturday morning are you going to get a fecal done. So we guessed and treated. 
Neither one look like the other doe  did, one is still eating the other one wasn't as hungry, but they are both pretty perky, so we treated them for coccidiosis and will see how they are doing in 4 or 5 hours. 

we have had a ton of rain here, coccidiosis is giving us a run for our money this spring.


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## Roll farms (Jun 9, 2012)

We've had .4" of rain in 3.5 wks.   Our pasture looks like late August, drying out already.

Sometimes you just can't win.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jun 9, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> We've had .4" of rain in 3.5 wks.   Our pasture looks like late August, drying out already.
> 
> Sometimes you just can't win.


*

More than us! We haven't had any rain! Starting to look like summer here. *


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## jodief100 (Jun 9, 2012)

Thank you for posting this.  I am going to add this to my " what to do when..." spreadsheet.  

I hope she pulls through. I am fortunate that my vet is an exclusively mobile vet and works out of his house, which is 2.1 miles from mine.  I have gotten lactated ringers on a Sunday and a fecal done on Friday night.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 9, 2012)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> Thank you for posting this.  I am going to add this to my " what to do when..." spreadsheet.
> 
> I hope she pulls through. I am fortunate that my vet is an exclusively mobile vet and works out of his house, which is 2.1 miles from mine.  I have gotten lactated ringers on a Sunday and a fecal done on Friday night.


Our vets office didn't even carry lactating rings. When I picked up the draxxin, I planned on buying some.  NO luck.


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## elevan (Jun 9, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> jodief100 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You could use Sodium Chloride solution as well.  Any vet should have that.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 10, 2012)

She still isn't 100%, we are still giving her vitamin B injectable, probios, bovi-serum, and noemycin orally.  I may go get her another shot of Draxxin on Monday. 

The other 3 that started scouring, cleared up right away with one oral treatment of coccidiosis medicine, and are back on feed and doing fine. Of course we are continueing with the sulfa treatment. Although one is getting corid orally, because the slaughter time on Sulfa-dimethoxine is 21 days, and he was scheduled to go to market. Corid is 24 hours withdrawal.


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## bonbean01 (Jun 10, 2012)

So glad she is doing better!!!!  Acting quickly can make all the difference...also having a well stocked emergency medical supply...emergencies happen on weekends when everything is closed.  Thanks for sharing your experience...I've learned so much from your awful experience!


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 11, 2012)

Well, the drama continues.  the original doe is doing okay, still looks a little weak, but eating and no scours.  Then we had 4 more scour this weekend, but appeared to be a different kind of scours, didn't get nearly as sick and responded right away to treatment of sulfa-dimethoxine. This morning  I had 3 more scouring, they all looked okay, so I decided to wait to get help and by 2 o'clock in the afternoon we lost one of them.  The other 2 continue to look okay and we treated them early this evening.   

The one that we lost, bloated and threw her head back like she had polio. she was fine last night, well she wasn't scouring and she was eating and acting like a normal goat. She was not anemic, And when I checked on her this morning she was alert enough to run away from me.  I was going to go out to treat, but then it started raining again, and I didn't have enough help to treat and handle the children I care for, so I decided to wait for my husband to come home, since all the goats seemed really alert and active. That was a wrong choice. 

Sowe will be stopping everything we are doing when the next goats start to scour and getting fecals to the state lab.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jun 11, 2012)

*Wow so sorry you are having so much trouble!! Is this cocci from the rain? How old was the one you lost? 


Sorry for your loss! *


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## ksalvagno (Jun 11, 2012)

Boy, sounds like  something is going through your herd. I hope you find out what it is.


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## Roll farms (Jun 11, 2012)

Sorry.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 11, 2012)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:
			
		

> *Wow so sorry you are having so much trouble!! Is this cocci from the rain? How old was the one you lost?
> 
> 
> Sorry for your loss! *


She was one of our biggest doelings from February, 75lbs, never sick a single day, up until this morning. 

We have every intentions of getting this under control.  

 husband just came home from 4h meeting and we have been adviced to revaccinate our entire herd for CD&T.  They said if you use the same brand of CD&T vaccine that your herd will become resistant. We have used the same one for years. 

The first doe that I saved, I had given her C&D antitoxin and oral Penn G that morning along with several other treatments. 

This doe that died was bloated. We are now thinking a worm load or a coccidiosis load, plus failure of our vaccine is affecting our herd. 

We will for sure be doing fecal samples and more testing as needed. 

We will be revaccinating our entire herd, ASAP, plus getting a big bottle of C&D antitoxin.

Thanks for the hugs. 

for those of you who have been keeping up with our does this spring, we lost VAlentine, we are upset to say the least.


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## daisychick (Jun 11, 2012)

Sorry to hear of all the sickness and Oh so sorry to hear about Valentine.       Hoping with all my heart that you get this caught and under control before you lose anymore.       Sending hugs and my thoughts.


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## redtailgal (Jun 11, 2012)

oh. So sorry!


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## bonbean01 (Jun 11, 2012)

Not Valentine!!!  

I'm so sorry!!!!  This is so hard for you...really hope the rest pull through...sometimes things just carry on day to day well...then something like this and it is crisis time.  You need super hugs


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## neener92 (Jun 11, 2012)

So sorry!


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## manybirds (Jun 12, 2012)

sorry for your loss  . i know is not a laughing matter but when i saw 'we lost one today' by 20kidsonhill my imidiate thought was 'so now there down to 19 kids on a hill  it wouldn't even be funny if it hadn' been such an imidiate and serious thought.


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## drdoolittle (Jun 12, 2012)

So sorry for all the troubles you're going through right now.  When I read that you had lost Valentine, I got tears in my eyes------I'm so, so sorry.


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## Goatherd (Jun 12, 2012)

So sorry to hear this.  You'll get it under control, I'm sure.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 12, 2012)

no new scours this morning and the other two responded to the coccidiosis treatment and have stopped scouring this morning, and are eating. 


Manybirds  I picked that username a while ago, so it should read more like 60kidsonahill.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 12, 2012)

drdoolittle said:
			
		

> So sorry for all the troubles you're going through right now.  When I read that you had lost Valentine, I got tears in my eyes------I'm so, so sorry.


My husband is especially taking it hard, we were really looking forward to having her join our herd and we were already talking about who we would breed her to first and future kids from her. 

It is such a shame, we vaccinate 30 days before the doe kids and all the kids have had two CD&T vaccinations.


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## Mamaboid (Jun 12, 2012)

Glad to hear things have gotten a little better.  Hope it is the corner turned, and continues in that direction.


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## jodief100 (Jun 12, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear you lost such a beautiful doe.  I wish I could do something other than give you encouragement but you are doing everythign I know to do and then some.  

It sounds like things are getting better.  You are in my thoughts.


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## SDBoerGoats (Jun 12, 2012)

Oh no, 20K! I haven't been on the forum for a while, I got really sick with some horrible bug, like 3 weeks ago, and just getting over it. SO SORRY TO HEAR you lost Valentine!  And for all you're going through, that's just scary to have something like that start up. I hope things get under control and you find out what it is. And again, so sorry you lost Valentine, I felt the same way when I lost Sugar, broke my heart.


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## manybirds (Jun 12, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Manybirds  I picked that username a while ago, so it should read more like 60kidsonahill.


the more the merrier! i really am sorry to hear about you loss, its especially hard when your not sure of the cause and you think there was possibly somehting you could have done.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 13, 2012)

nothing new going on as of this moring.  No new scours and everyone is eating and looking okay.  The antotoxin and vaccine are being shipped and should be here in a day or so.  We will revaccinate the entire herd and then booster again in 30 days. Our goats are going to hate us.


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## drdoolittle (Jun 13, 2012)

20kidsonahill wrote:





> It is such a shame, we vaccinate 30 days before the doe kids and all the kids have had two CD&T vaccinations


I am doing the same with my goats' vaccinations.  Anyway, glad to see it may have turned around and no new scours today.


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## terrilhb (Jun 13, 2012)

I just saw this post. I am so sorry for your loss and all you are all going through. I am so happy that things are starting to look up.


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## TTs Chicks (Jun 13, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Our goats are going to hate us.


Only for a few minutes    so sorry


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 18, 2012)

not a surprise that we had more to start scouring, so we did fecals.  Again, not a big surprise. They Have Worms.  There is a shocker. 

They have what is known as the Bankrupt worm(Trichostrongylus), It isn't rare or anything, just seem to be enjoying our warm winter and all the rain we have been getting.  We have to worm our entire herd every 2 weeks for 3 wormings to break the cycle of the heavy load that the herd is clearly carrying.

And we will be revaccinating, twice with CD &T


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## SDBoerGoats (Jun 18, 2012)

Oh wow, what a pain. I've never heard of that worm. Good thing you did fecals to find out, if it isn't one thing, it's another!


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## BlondeSquirrel04 (Jun 19, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> not a surprise that we had more to start scouring, so we did fecals.  Again, not a big surprise. They Have Worms.  There is a shocker.
> 
> They have what is known as the Bankrupt worm(Trichostrongylus), It isn't rare or anything, just seem to be enjoying our warm winter and all the rain we have been getting.  We have to worm our entire herd every 2 weeks for 3 wormings to break the cycle of the heavy load that the herd is clearly carrying.
> 
> And we will be revaccinating, twice with CD &T


What is the treatment? Cydectin, Ivermectin? Something else? I had 3 goats scouring 2 weeks ago. One cleared up in about 12 hours, one in 3 days, and one in 4....that was scary as all heck! Think mine was bacterial, though, at least the 2 with the scours for days.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 19, 2012)

I looked up valbazene, cydectin and synanthic and they all listed the bankrupt worm.  We were already using synanthic this year, so we will continue with that.  But we haven't been using it on a regular basis, We had wormed the kids and some of the adults with it a couple months ago, and we always worm the kids infividually the day they go to their new home, and we send 3 doses of wormer home with them, as well as a treatment of Sulfa-dimthoxine. Coccidiosis is normally what we deal with. But we have been treating all our kids and goats under 2 years of age every 21 to 25 days  for cocci.  The fecal showed no cocci and no barber-pole worms.  

the goats that have been scouring have not been anemic.  They have been responding to the synanthic,  One treatment and the scours have been dried up the next day. 

We are giving it at the rate of 3 cc per 100lbs, the label says 1 cc per 110lbs, there is a 7 day withdrawal.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 19, 2012)

I am in a very bad mood, two more scouring today.  Pouring scours out of them.  Husband and I have reached the point of frustration,  now we are fighting about it.  Anyone want to buy a goat herd???  Cheap???


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## ksj0225 (Jun 19, 2012)

Ok, so they are scouring after being treated?  How has the weather been this week?  Still on your coccodia treatment plan?  Are they babies or adults scouring?  Think they just might need some scour-halt?


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 19, 2012)

ksj0225 said:
			
		

> Ok, so they are scouring after being treated?  How has the weather been this week?  Still on your coccodia treatment plan?  Are they babies or adults scouring?  Think they just might need some scour-halt?


Yes, We gave them each 2 cc of synanthic on Sunday, and two of the three show wethers have scours pooring out of them today. (4 months old)   

I am getting ready to load them up with scour halt, treat them for accidosis and per the vets suggestion put them on corid.  He said, "Sulfa is great if the calf or goat is not yet ruminating, but pretty much pointless if their rumen has developed and they are chewing cud. For any ruminant that is old enough to ruminant he highly recommends corid  over sulfa."  

Thin is, I had them all on Corid a couple weeks ago and that is when the scours started getting really bad and breaking in our kids, and even some of our adults. 

Goldman is also scouring for the past couple of days, he is 15 months old and near 200 lbs. I had another And on and off through out the past couple weeks I have had adults and kids scouring in every pen/pasture that we have set up. Some of them responded right away to being wormed and are doing just fine.  

Vet didn't even sound interested in redoing fecals or coming out to look.  He did say we aren't the only onse in the area struggling, including his calves are having a heck of a time. 

I am about to go nuts.  

I must own goats.


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## SheepGirl (Jun 19, 2012)

Are you quarantining the sick ones? That may help stop the spread of what you're dealing with.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 19, 2012)

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> Are you quarantining the sick ones? That may help stop the spread of what you're dealing with.


Not really, Don't have enough space for it. But the two that are scouring now are technically already in quarantine, they are show goats and have been in a pen for a month together with one other wether(total of 3), off of pasture. On different feed than the rest of the herd.  Goldman hasn't been with any of the other goats, he is on a separate pasture, as well, also on show feed, but not the same feed as the other two that are scouring, not even the same brand.


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## ksj0225 (Jun 19, 2012)

We are getting hit hard this year with coccidia so I know the feeling.  I'm switching back and forth b/t Sulmet and Di-methox.  Running a full course of each but going to the other if that goat scours again.

I've have my buck get it, 1 yearling kiko, and almost all my kids except my newest march babies.  All my dec/jan/feb kids have had it.  One of my march babies got it but he belongs to the yearling kiko that had it too, and she wasn't on my property last year.

Havent' tried Corid, b/c I read on here that I would be wasting my time with it...  

My bottle babies (one a boer and one a dairy goat) and my two young kikos keep getting it the worst)

They all eat feed, half medicated/half non-medicated.


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## jodief100 (Jun 19, 2012)

I wish I could help but I am out of suggestions.  

Perhaps scour halt and neomycin.  I have done that with ones that don't cear up on scour halt alone and it works sometimes.


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## SDBoerGoats (Jun 19, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I am in a very bad mood, two more scouring today.  Pouring scours out of them.  Husband and I have reached the point of frustration,  now we are fighting about it.  Anyone want to buy a goat herd???  Cheap???


20K....I am SO SORRY!  Gosh, this has to be frustrating as all heck. You try so hard to do everything right, and with the right meds, I just don't get it, after the fecals show positive for worms, you would think the deworming would stop all this. You are in my thoughts and I am so hoping you get this under control.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 23, 2012)

I thought I should update this since I ended up on such a frustrating point.  Everything cleared up, with a couple rounds of Corid and synanthic wormer. We didn't loose any more kids. In total we just lost the one, who technically was never treated, She was scouring in the morning and dead by 2pm. The rest all recovered and are doing well with good gains. Goat farming is looking a little better right now for us. Thanks for your alls interest and discussion.


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## Pearce Pastures (Sep 23, 2012)

sorry about the kid.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 23, 2012)

Glad you were able to save the rest. Sorry about the one you lost. It is always hard.


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## SkyWarrior (Sep 24, 2012)

Sorry to hear that you lost one and had such a bad time.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 24, 2012)

Thanks, we are still dissapointed about loosing Valentine this summer. We wer really really looking forward to having her join our herd. She was my husband's first pick and one of 5 does that we choose to keep out of the 45 total kids we had this spring. 

Here she is: She had a perfect heart shape on her back by her shoulders, and was born right around Valentine's Day, so we named her Locust Haven Valentine. For those of you who haven't read the entire thread, She started scouring at around 12 weeks of age, beleived to be from a parasite load, but she was looking okay, so I decided to wait until the evening for my husband to help me catch her and worm her and I found her bloated and on her side at 1pm, by 2pm she had lost her fight. The believed cause of death was "Overeating disease" brought on by the stress of the worm load. She had been vaccinated twice as well as her mother was vaccinated 30 days prior to kidding. 







this is her rear photo shot, she was our thickest doe of the kidding season. Not the longest doe, but the thickest. She is 93% Boer.


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## DonnaBelle (Sep 24, 2012)

Thanks for the photo of Valentine.

It's scary to think of losing one that fast!!

I know what you mean about the wet weather.  It seems everything is healthier when the weather is not rainy for days/weeks on end.  

As you know, Texas and Oklahoma are in drought mode this year.  But my goats have never been healthier.  Cold and dry seem to help goats healthwise.

I'm sorry you lost your girl.  

DonnaBelle


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 24, 2012)

DonnaBelle said:
			
		

> Thanks for the photo of Valentine.
> 
> It's scary to think of losing one that fast!!
> 
> ...


Well, cetainly not wishing for a drought, but a really cold winter would be nice. I am sure you would rather have to worm a little extra, than have no pasture or hay in your area. We had a drough 3 summers ago, and we didn't have to worm but 3 or 4 goats the entire year. This year was certainly a different story.


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