# What and how much to feed my LDG 10 week old puppies...



## dhansen (Jan 27, 2014)

I have read a lot of conflicting things online about what to feed my puppies and the quantity to feed them.  I have two pyrenees male puppies who are just about 10 weeks old.  One already weights 21 lbs and the other is 18 lbs.  They are growing super fast, but I have read that it's not good for them to grow too fast. I am going to guess there is a whole lot more experience and wisdom from people on this sight than online.


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## Robbin (Jan 27, 2014)

Keep the puppy lean during the growth period and  feed foods that have a calcium and phosphorus at or below 1%.  The elements of nutrition that have been scientifically proven to negatively impact skeletal development in puppies are excessive calories and high or unbalanced mineral content, specifically calcium and phosphorus.  Genetics are the number one problem, but diet is a factor.  I feed my dog large or giant breed puppy food for a month or two.  Then shifted to adult giant breed because it has fewer calories then puppy food.  I've only seen one large/giant breed food that had too much Calicum or phosphorus.  Other problems are enviromental, like climbing stairs.
Mine grew way faster than I wanted, and climbs 8 stairs to my porch 20+ times a day.  He turns 1 year old in a week and shows no signs of problems. But I worry about it all the time.  The parents weren't old enough to have been certified about hip or elbow dysplasia and I didn't know enough to ask anyway.  I hope that if he shows no signs by a year old he's going to be all right, but dogs have to be 2.5 years old to be certified for no dysplasia.  So I'll continue to worry.  I sure do love the big white dog.  Hope this helps...


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## Southern by choice (Jan 28, 2014)

Robbin gives some good advice!

Much depends on the structure of your pup also as well as activity level. If you are in a cold region and the pups are utilizing their food to keep warm they will need more than in a region of mild temps.
I focus on balancing fat/protein and adjust weekly as needed.

You mention they are 21 and 18 lbs at 10 weeks. Some weights are simply genetics but some weights of pups are also affected by proper de-worming. There really is no set amount to feed your pups.

At their age you want to see about average 3 lbs per week gain. At about 16 weeks 5 lbs a week. You want to see consistent gain but not huge gains.

You do not want them fat and better to be lean, feel along the ribs do not judge by site.

My pups are from very large stock and I monitor them closely as I do not want them getting too heavy and causing stress. I keep charts and watch for consistency. I would recommend free feed at this point but make sure they are de-wormed and they should continue with a deworming protocol til 16 weeks. 

Feeds too high in protein will cause runny stool. I like a higher protein balanced with higher fat but not extreme either.


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## dhansen (Jan 30, 2014)

Thank you Robbin and Southern!  Neither puppy is fat, but one gained 3 lbs last week and the other gained 5 lbs.  BOth are from very large stock, so I will feed and monitor and worm!


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## moffitthill (Jan 30, 2014)

We raise GSD... most GSD pups are born a pound give or take a few oz... our 1lb8oz + in our line... one of our favorite sires is 98-102 at show weight (big boy for a gsd but top in nation for futurity/maturity in 2012 and perhaps 2013 (we'll see)... even though prevalent in breed, we are fortunate that due to good breeding decisions to not have hip issues (and all are cert before we will breed) ...yet the biggest concern is if the puppies grow quickly that the pasterns drop... I'm sure you've seen big breed dogs that have that odd front gait from this condition -- some even have a swiping or paddle out type gait in severe cases... so we make sure that we supplement with three things depending on individual development and until past major growth spurts ... at least until 6 mo... sometimes we continue to a year for our "mooses"... supplements are (1) Sure Grow 100 (2) a supplement of selenium for skeletal muscle support (look at dosage for adult human -- most pharm estimate that on 150# so take weight of your pup and adjust to dose -- don't think a bunch extra will help because too much of this is not good either) and (3) cod liver oil for joint/cartilage health. Also if we have a winter litter... very important that they get that sunshine natural best but artificial works too. We actually feed the bitch small breed puppy food before whelp through 6-8 weeks weaning (we let her wean them -- they usually do in that time or 8 weeks we do) and so at 5-6 weeks introduce a mix of small breed and large breed puppy food until small breed bag is gone and then just Large Breed puppy to 6 mo (need the DHA etc) and then because there are some major growth spurts to become big kids coming, we go to a Large Breed puppy (has DHA) mixed with Diamond Naturals Lamb and Rice Large Breed Adult with Glucosamine and Chondroitin (easy digest... low allergen/reactive as no soy, no corn, no wheat and has easily digestible lamb as chicken is number one protein to cause issue AND the Glucosamine and Chondroitin support the bone/joints). We stop the puppy food whenever the vet recommends. Congrats on your big bundles of joy  BTW you should be able to "feel" the ribs and "see" just where the rib cage ends (for a waist) is ideal. Don't worry about weight... look at condition.

Southern by choice has the breed so is a good go to...I just thought to share what we have learned about fast growth of bigger dogs 100+


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## dhansen (Jan 30, 2014)

I really love the experience and wisdom of you all on this website.  We are just beginning this journey and would rather do it correctly than learn the hard way.  Thank you!


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## Sweetened (Jan 30, 2014)

We feed both raw and kibble (not at the same time), and have since our pups were born.  Our general rule is to watch the dogs for weight changes and keep them slender, but muscular.  All of our dogs, who are over a year old, and have equal levels of activity are on 3 cups per day of kibble, except one.  Tank is on 4 cups a day as he started to thin down on 3.  We upped his food level and will lower it again when he starts to put on too much weight.

For kibble, we have found Kirkland brand dog food (red bag) from Costco to be the very best, as well as being most affordable.  Its primary ingredient is meat and it's not loaded in soy, corn and wheat.  We do give bones and meat as well when we have it on hand and like to throw eggs into the bowls when there is spares.  It surprises a lot of people, but larger dogs eat less food than one would think, as they tend to wear out quicker so are less active than, say, terriers.

Hope you find what works for you.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 30, 2014)

Sometimes it is a bit trial and error too. None of our dogs LGD's or GSD"S have never done well on lamb. They do fine on chicken, turkey, deer, rabbit, squirrel.... just not lamb. I also avoid fish. It is beneficial but I cannot stand my dogs smelling like fish... and they will! 

For close to 25 years we fed our GSd's a food that was the best... in the 90's it disappeared... only sold outside of the US now.
I have tried so many feeds it is ridiculous. My LGD's did not do well on the Diamond... ok but not great. I have changed a great deal about how I feed.

At the root... dogs are scavengers... they will eat anything, but meat is their biggest.  We slaughter a good deal and that is what the dogs get as well as we save all the legs and parts from deer, skin rabbits and squirrel and toss it in. Chickens/turkey we usually just grab the meat and that way we can freeze a bunch of it. When neighbors do cows/goats we feed that too and always give legs.

I have seen the breeder where we got our 2 male pyrs from... old time farmers with a big farm... lots of LGD's ... know what they feed? Southern States. She lost her oldest male recently at almost 16 years of age. I have seen many dogs on pedigree dog food that are the image of health and are ancient...

I have changed my view in many ways of feeding... just because it is costly doesn't mean it's crap and just because it's cheap doesn't mean it's crap. LOL Feed what works, feel for the ribs, keep an eye on their stool...

My 12 wk old Female pups are 34/36 lbs... they are not fat, I can feel their ribs, they are growing well and super healthy.
A 12 week old male at 26 lbs may be just as healthy but different in size and structure.

  Ummmm...PICS!


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## Sweetened (Jan 30, 2014)

I agree with @Southern by choice , cheap or budget friendly doesn't mean crap, and expensive doesn't mean quality.  We looked over bags of feed that were 60, 70 bucks for 40lbs, first six incredients were corn or soy or wheat.  Ingredients are listed in order of quantity, most prevalent to least.  I will start a thread to show our dogs on their feed regimen so I don't highjack your thread!


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## moffitthill (Feb 6, 2014)

FYI: When checking out food ... a site that I refer for someone that wants to learn about food and get started... (you will have to go to the brand site for ingredients of certain types as it only uses one type of food as explanation)... Southern by Choice has the breed and is right... whatever works is best ... and if you can get that at better value... why not?

Anyway, I like this site because after doing a good bit of personal research I found this site is typically accurate and uses the same criteria to judge every food.  AND the site does not have one bit of advertisement for a dog food so helps give more assurance that it is not one of those sites with special interests... dogfoodadvisor.com.

Personally,
We won't feed any dyed multi-colored food... and watch for/avoid a high ash content as can cause kidney/bladder problems.  Many foods don't even list ash... just as they don't tell you about fat preservative used (could be chemical, not natural)... or don't name the animal fat (could be fat from a euthanized cow). 

We feed lamb because of digestibility... lamb is more similar to venison and even goat and so much more easily digested than beef... and we personally avoid chicken as main protein while puppies (named chicken fat in food is OK). And because chicken is the #protein to cause reaction/allergy concerns as they develop.  For our dogs after a year that are still being shown and doing conditioning ... often need extra protein and fat, so we feed Extreme Athlete Naturals 32% Fat/25% Protein which is main chicken but by that point we have fed enough raw diet... (we introduce it one raw protein type at a time for two weeks each to assure no sensitivity)... so we know if chicken is good to go.

I did not mention raw diet supplements ... unless someone asks as it can be a bit much.  We do feed raw diet to supplement but personally do not add raw until the pups have gone through all their puppy checks and puppy shots.  We get the pups solid on kibble and assure that they have no other underlying issues... having a limited diet makes this easier. Also we have found on occasion that some will turn off from kibble completely. Then you have to get more supplements and add more this and that to assure a balanced and nutritious ideal growing diet. It's not often but as we keep our puppies longer than the typical 8 weeks... making separate diets for a litter of pups can be a bit much.

BTW I also have recommended Kirkland as it is manufactured by Diamond for Costco as their brand... and so is the 4-Health manufactured by Diamond for Tractor Supply Company... (both have fish protein foods in the Natural line that the Diamonds Natural line does not -- have to go to grain free for it. I like to recommend the Bright Blue Kirkland Salmon and Sweet Potato for dogs with nervous colitis or Senior pets that begin to have digestive concerns as fish is the most easily digested protein and Omegas help that old skin ... and Sweet Potato is a carb but has more nutritional value than white potato and rices. A cost efficient option to try before one must consider a more costly vet script option.

And yes... fish because more oils can make some dogs flatulent... first make sure any food with fish as main protein is Natural (no corn,soy,wheat) as that can make worse and are top three reactive/allergy concerns for dogs... I add banana (I get the older ones just not BLACK but discounted and cut up in chunks and freeze (great for my smoothies and helps deter stink'um in a gassy dog).

And yes they are scavengers... but I NEVER feed raw pork...


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## Southern by choice (Feb 6, 2014)

> Extreme Athlete Naturals 32% Fat/25% Protein



Our GSD has been on this and we recently took her off... going to a lower protein higher carb. 
Very hard to keep weight on her and ultimately all the protein at this point could very well cause uric acid issues.

No raw pork here either...actually very little pork ever anyway.
Our LGD's rarely touch the raw meat in the hot months. They just don't need it. Low predator threat, heat, not using up much energy. Ours barely touch any food through the hot months... we end up with a 15-20 lb flux on the females and 20-30 lb flux on males.


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## moffitthill (Feb 9, 2014)

First... I neglected to mention in previous post for the original question about the pups... a lot people believe mistakenly that extra/more calcium makes stronger bones... no no and no. Fast growing large/giant breed puppies given too much calcium can cause bone and joint developmental abnormalities. 

Now onto more info... ash in dry kibble in high amounts can contain to much calcium also. High ash content from bones etc being rendered can also have too much phosphorus ... bad for kidney health. And last but not least... high ash can cause what Southern by Choice mentions... uric acid issues. I am not questioning the decision at all to go off the food. I would like to express that I have done the research though and found the manufacturer of the DIamond considered safe levels -- as of when first offered with original recipe for Extreme Athlete -- so unless they change should be OK unless your dog has special predispositions. Also Diamond actually has information to educate buyers about this concern on their site. Many manufacturers do not bother... nor do they put ash % on bag... nor do they return emails and/or calls regarding this matter. If you can't get the info may I suggest that you avoid those foods.

We supplement with raw so actual overall intake of ash is lowered as raw has no ash. Yet according to our vet, the dogs get enough mineral nutrient from dry kibble. We seldom feed canned food unless we need to entice an appetite or need the 70 to 90% water for some reason. Puppies being weaned... we mix. Also showing in a very hot climate, etc. Though fresh water available at all times, that extra water can help if tummy upset from travel to help hydration. Our dogs are Yankees 

Please do your own research for each dog individually. I am not a vet but leaving my story. Just leaving for those that may be trying to decide what food best for their dog. This was a learning experience for us years ago. Concerning crystal/stones in urine. Years ago, we fed Eagle that had typical protein but the ash content was quite high... we didn't know -- wasn't on bag even if we had some knowledge then. It was a live and learn thing. We had a dog with crystals in urine... at vet recommendation if going to feed kibble. make sure 0.07% - 0.10% (on bags no decimals because of amount being considered for %) ash content and explained that it's not the protein itself that causes issues but the ash content from rendering to dry kibble and many companies looking at profitability don't take the precaution/extra means to lower what ash content gets into the kibble... you would think that more meat protein=more ash but that is not always the case. Otherwise the grain free dog and high protein food would be a big problem for the dogs. Again it depends on company does it and how much ash is left in the dry food,etc -- sources of manufacturers protein, how much bone, etc... Note that wet food usually has .02% -- not always enough as the ash does provide elements/minerals needed in the diet unless... again your pet has predispositions.


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## moffitthill (Feb 9, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Our GSD has been on this and we recently took her off... going to a lower protein higher carb.
> Very hard to keep weight on her and ultimately all the protein at this point could very well cause uric acid issues.
> 
> No raw pork here either...actually very little pork ever anyway.
> Our LGD's rarely touch the raw meat in the hot months. They just don't need it. Low predator threat, heat, not using up much energy. Ours barely touch any food through the hot months... we end up with a 15-20 lb flux on the females and 20-30 lb flux on males.



Wow... that must be flux for the Greats. Our GSD dogs are kept lean show condition (even when seniors we still keep a waistline on them so weight is easy on the bones). Our GSD live to be 13-16 year old ... usually no sign of any old dog cricks until after 12. We can't have that kind of flux in weight as so lean.We feed coolest part of day except raw treat. Our dogs go go go go in the morning so by late lunch they have burned/digested breakfast which we feed very early and don't let them come out for exercise for an hour to two later to deter bloat. The raw disappears quick after as is just a supplement midday meal. Then... Siesta time  in the cool away from heat. After nap later afternoon, it is outdoors again. After our dinner they get to really run the property some more (except winter when gets dark so early ... there are coyotes too close and we don't like them running the acres -- all animals are bunked in secure at dark when colder weather) and then get some night kibble... whatever is not finished by morning... we give difference to make meal for breakfast as long as not consistently leftover as to cause weight loss. Our dogs will go together until they can't... we have to watch that they don't overdo it when it's hot. Our senior before she passed still went go go go speed as she could... just not as long. They are like furry waterbugs  Sometimes I wish they were more like your's in using less energy. In cold winter is when ours get a bit lazy. Must be a Northern thing.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 9, 2014)

Yeah, the flux is for the LGD's.
My Old GSd's lived long lives too... 16 years was my best oldest girl. The GSd I have now... ugh impossible to keep weight on. I swear the dog could do 2 endurance tests in a day. 
I do like my dogs on the lean side too! 

@moffitthill -You mentioned somewhere else "not breed racial" what did you mean?


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## moffitthill (Feb 9, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Yeah, the flux is for the LGD's.
> My Old GSd's lived long lives too... 16 years was my best oldest girl. The GSd I have now... ugh impossible to keep weight on. I swear the dog could do 2 endurance tests in a day.
> I do like my dogs on the lean side too!
> 
> @moffitthill -You mentioned somewhere else "not breed racial" what did you mean?



Not breed racial... means I don't discriminate by breed... I evaluate a dog by temperament. i also consider a breed for longevity/health so I consider a breed's pro/con when I help resource for suggesting a family dog of course. Yet, I've seen mutts and mixes with better temperaments than one with AKC papers. It drives me "nutter" to see people pay outrageous prices for the latest designer breed of the moment when that same mix sits in a pound waiting a fur-ever home. Just because we raise quality champion GSD and have been fortunate to breed (passion/not profit) puppies that on occasions other breeders have tried to buy away from us at shows for thousands... I don't want people to think I am a snob here. I am proud but also believe that any canine kid that is a safe family member is priceless. My son had a "pound puppy" that was the best dog ... so odd she was cute... and definitely priceless. 

If that big a struggle for weight ... do you have pond, creek, water/marsh access?  There is a parasite that will often be missed by vet except when parasite is shedding... so long time between... symptoms very intermittent diarrhea... we got an older pick puppy from a litter Arkansas (south or north can be present but more prevalent south) -- Ghardaia.  Parasite is in upper intestine and deprives nutrition. Eventually can cause autoimmune issues etc if left untreated and a regular antibiotic does not clear it up.

If not a thyroid issue. Is your more GSD German bred?  May be an enzyme deficiency in digestion or pancreatic issue?  There is a powder that helps.  Can't recall details but over the years we have had a handful of GSD German bred (except one American bred) that had similar weight issues. Were typically happy tubby puppies and as matured developed condition that made them not keep weight... one got so bad... she looked neglected.  She was always sweet puppy and got so thin that she changed to almost nervous even grumpy at times. Then when she came again... noticed better weight and they were adding some small amount of powder to her food ... she now has good weight and is back to her very sweet self and now a senior dog,

The only other thing I can think of is we had one boarder (with GSD mix she got at rescue and was underweight)... dog initially gained weight but then plateau... owner gave her dog a higher end food with probiotic and a probiotic supplement thinking to aid digestion... not realizing that too much can be detrimental too. Vet flushed... like doggie detox...  and owner was educated and sounds funny but her dog had healthy natural digestion and a basic food/average food with adequate nutrition and no dyes or the pre and probiotics... and the dog is at a healthy weight now. 

I can't think of anything else at the moment.  You are quite dog savvy.  I am sure that we will not agree on everything but you have a passion that shows thus far as I have seen. Some or all of this, you may have known but if not... food for thought.

If I think of anything else odd or more obscure... I'll pass on. 

BTW you make cute "faces" in post


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## Southern by choice (Feb 9, 2014)

Yes, she is German.  I am aware of parasitic issues, not her issue.
She is a very high energy GSD, she did have a Schutzhund trainer that rather "messed" her up .. she is our "pet" now and will remain simply that ... she is young and has enormous energy. We have increased her caloric intake and she is slowly gaining weight. 
Glad you are not "breed racial" ... I agree there are different breeds for different folks! Yes, the designer dogs of the days ... well we just called them mutts in my day.  
I love my mutt!


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Feb 9, 2014)

I like this feed: http://www.acana.com/

And this feed: http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/index.aspx

And both have a "large breed puppy" formula.

I also feed canned food, and raw after the pups are about 6 months old.

Very good advise on this thread.


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