# suddenly sick goat



## Moody (May 17, 2017)

4year old Nubian doe. No appetite this morning, no appetite this evening, slightly bloody severe diarrhea, off acting and a lump on her jaw. Nursing triplets that are 2-2.5 months old. Udder is not hard. Will check her milk. She looks awful where I check ligaments waiting for a kidding. 

I left her to eat this morning while I milked others. I don't milk her. I assumed she had eaten. She always does. I went to feed again and saw that she ate nothing this morning and didn't come for dinner. Noticed lump on jaw and nasty diarrhea. This was not present last night as her stall has none. It was closed off during the day. 

I have separated her, gave b complex injection, probios and electrolytes. I will post pics soon.


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## Hens and Roos (May 17, 2017)

sorry to hear, not sure but will tag others for you

@OneFineAcre @Goat Whisperer @Southern by choice @babsbag @Ferguson K


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## Moody (May 17, 2017)

Never had lumps lesions before. But possibly CL?


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## Green Acres Farm (May 17, 2017)

You said lump on jaw? Do you mean under the chin like bottle jaw?

I would be extremely worried about the bloody diarrhea and get a fecal done ASAP. 
Are her eyelids pale? 
Body condition? 
Temperature?


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## Moody (May 17, 2017)




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## OneFineAcre (May 17, 2017)

Get a fecal
The lump on jaw could just be a salivary gland and no big deal
But it might be more
I would get a vet involved


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## Moody (May 17, 2017)

I will get a fecal. The pics I see of bottle jaw seem more swollen rather than lump. I see nothing in her mouth but it is hard to see well. 



Her eyelids run a pale pink normally and they look their normal color. She was last dewormed after kidding on 3/15 with valbazen 140 pound dosage. She does not keep good condition. She never does. I am not milking her this season hoping to gain better condition. She looks way too thin as I look at her today. She ate nothing today.  I got her at nearly 2 years old and she was on the thin side. She is very thin now. I feed her the same amount  I feed the does I milk.


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## Moody (May 17, 2017)

When I say bloody I mean I saw some Spots of red in the puddle on the ground. So it's not a huge amount but something I noted to worry about. 

I will definitely have a vet do a fecal tomorrow morning. Despite her eyelids looking okay for her, it seems it could be another  deworming she needs. 

I do not have a thermometer for temp at this time.


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## Goat Whisperer (May 17, 2017)

Parasites.
Bottle Jaw starting, scours is from the overload, poor BCS, and the constant anemia all screams parasites.

I hope your girl makes it! It can be difficult to save them once it gets to this stage. 
Definitely talk to your vet ASAP!

How much valbazen did you give?


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## Ferguson K (May 17, 2017)

I agree with GW. That's definitely  a big parasite load. I would get a fecal asap.


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## Southern by choice (May 17, 2017)

My guess is she has coccidia and parasites.
Get a fecal done. 
Did you ever follow up with the dewormer?

Is the "lump" a lump or swelling... is it only on one side or both?


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

Her eyelids are never bright pink. I can definitely give her some in an hour. Valbazen I give at 1ml per 10 pounds. I've never dosed those dewormers 3 days in a row like the pelleted dewormer says to do. 

And like I said she is always thin even with the previous owner.  I always chalked it up to her putting everything into her milk. 

I can give her safeguard this morning  before I try to get a sample for fecal. If it is like you all think, I should start with that as something lighter.


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

Hopefully I can find a vet who does a better job of fecals because the last guy just recommended every 2-3 months no matter what. I think he said to switch it up between two different ones.  Plus he did qualative and not quantative. Also he may have been the only one within 30 miles who even did them. I did have to call around.


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

I will also pick up some alfalfa hay and cut some elm limbs for her.


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

And the diarrhea pops up every spring in 2-3 goats out of 16 goats because a few will eat the milk weed from the neighbors side or any I miss on my side.


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## Southern by choice (May 18, 2017)

Moody said:


> Valbazen I give at 1ml per 10 pounds. I've never dosed those dewormers 3 days in a row like the pelleted dewormer says to do.



You do* NOT* give valbazen 3 days in a row.

Although there is a chart showing a higher dosage ... most stick with 5 to 8 mls per 100lbs. You should check with your vet

Safeguard is 3-5 days in a row.


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

oh I have never done any 3 consequetive days except pelleted safeguard.

Vet said same thing you did. Coccidia and heavy parasite infestation. I have sulfur bolus. 2 today and one the next two days. He said to heavy deworm using a white dewormer and another like ivomectin or cydectin at the same time. And he also said that about only 3 days for specifically safeguard. He noted that around here the dewormers aren't as effective anymore.

Vets here recommend a strict schedule which is nothing like I read in many spots about using famancha and only using chemical dewormers when necessary.


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

Thank you all for all your help. I thought I could use do-method to prevent and treat but vet had not heard of it.

Di-Methox. Autocorrect


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

An I thought one didn't want to heavily deworm a heavily infested goat and the sudden death and elimination of worms could cause intestinal bleeding and too much blood lose from such worms releasing all at one time.


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## Southern by choice (May 18, 2017)

Often when I hear that a dewormer is no longer effective in  certain area two things come to mind...

Is the dewormer being used properly with correct dosages (usually not)
If it truly is ineffective it is because of the improper use of it (see above) and irresponsible use has caused this.

I know the double dewormer with two classes is now suggested  but personally I have mixed feelings on this.
I would be concerned about bleed out and just hitting the system so hard van cause other issues as well.

I would prefer one class... wait 10 days and give a second class. 

GIVING PROBIOS IMO IS CRUCIAL with high worm loads.

Unless fecals are being run to see the efficacy of the dewormer one will never know. You want to see a 95% reduction.

There are reasons why some are still pro- schedule.


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

He actually said 1ml/30 pounds of the safeguard and the highest I have seen was 1ml/34 pounds. 

I'm sure this method of famancha checking works but I think it takes more experience and really attentive farmers to really make it work as well as the field rotation, which I cannot really do at this point. 

Would you give 5 ml of probios every day for a few days? I gave some yesterday. I figured it wouldn't hurt even before you told me it was my poor management that is causing her issues. It is just these two American Nubians. The rest of my goats apparently have a better natural parasite resistance as well are just hardier overall. Now I have all these kids off these two adults and I know these kids are going to need a lot of maintenance.


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

This vet would have to send it away for quantative so I am not going to know the load reduction.


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

I feel pretty inadequate with regards to these goats. Today she spit those pills out at least 8 times. Despite my shoving the bolus gun far back (apparently not far enough) and keeping her head tilted back and holding her mouth shut. Would be funny if it were not me trying to get it done!


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

Also this is contagious. I know coccidia is normal for adults to shed some and mostly dangerous for kids. Hence the prevention.  I have 7 kids that have been around her. And I have 5 other goats aged 1 -3 that were also with her. I have separated her into her own pen where she has free feed and free alfalfa hay. But do I need to treat the others for coccidia? I will automatically deworm them all. And the kids had di-methox 40% .5 cc for 7 days at 3 weeks then once a week since.

The rest all have better body condition. But adults were all dewormed around the same time 2  months ago and the kids have not been dewormed at all yet.


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## Southern by choice (May 18, 2017)

Moody said:


> I'm sure this method of famancha checking works but I think it takes more experience and really attentive farmers to really make it work



If you can check out you county and surrounding counties extension services many offer classes on parasite management and FAMACHA traing. When you have the card in hand it is much better and more effective. We use our card on every goat!  We teach others with the card so they have an understanding becuase without it people generally gauge everything by white- near death or pink - looks ok and that is not accurate. When I am just hanging out with my goats I don't have card in hand but sometimes I'll just flip a lid and check here and there. It is just about checking more often.



Moody said:


> He actually said 1ml/30 pounds of the safeguard and the highest I have seen was 1ml/34 pounds


If safeguard (fenbendazole) is given at that dose it will make them resistant because it is similar to giving a baby aspirin to a 200lb man with a toothache- IOW ineffective.
I am thinking your vet doesn't do goats.



Moody said:


> Would you give 5 ml of probios every day for a few days?


What kind of probios? We use the powder and mix with water ...
A friend of mine had a goat on deaths door...literally down and looked like it wouldn't make it through the night. She drenched with powdermixed with water probios at 20cc 3x that day and she gave one last drench at midnight... goat was up walking around the next morning. This goat had HIGH load and was treated with valbazen.



Moody said:


> I figured it wouldn't hurt even before you told me it was my poor management that is causing her issues.


Understanding that management practices change over time and should. Whether, years of goats, numbers of goats ... all that makes a difference. Minerals, especially copper helps keep parasites in check.

You can have healthy hardy resistant stock but IF that gets out of balance then those animals with have a rough go...
When they are in a "bad" place parasite and health wise it takes time... sometimes a year or even two to get things back on track.
Don't give up, it may take a bit of time but you can get there.
Learning how to do your own fecals would be highly beneficial to you. You will want to do them often until you can see what is working and what needs to change.
Remember most dewormers only kill 4th stage so not following up will make things worse.

Sounds to me like you are "on it" now and perseverance will make a difference. Cocci preventative is pretty important and something to add to your kidding season regimen.


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

I do the preventative for the kids. Just wondering if I actually should treat all adults in that field....

I have the probios gel. I don't have a drenching gun but I could get some electrolytes in her with a syringe. She isn't drinking much despite fresh water twice a day and electrolyte water available. She did eat some alfalfa hay. I also give copper once a year.


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

And I will dose dewormer again 10 days from today. Assuming she makes it.


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

1 ml /30 lbs is still too low? I have the safeguard for goats and I think it said 2.9 ml for 120 pound goat.


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## Moody (May 18, 2017)

That vet also recommended corid as he had never heard of di-methox


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## OneFineAcre (May 18, 2017)

I give Safeguard 1ML per 10lbs.
I usually give 5 days.


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## OneFineAcre (May 18, 2017)

Moody said:


> 1 ml /30 lbs is still too low? I have the safeguard for goats and I think it said 2.9 ml for 120 pound goat.



That's why it doesn't work


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## Southern by choice (May 18, 2017)

Moody said:


> I do the preventative for the kids. Just wondering if I actually should treat all adults in that field....
> 
> I have the probios gel. I don't have a drenching gun but I could get some electrolytes in her with a syringe. She isn't drinking much despite fresh water twice a day and electrolyte water available. She did eat some alfalfa hay. I also give copper once a year.


We use a large 60cc syringe to drench with.
NEVER leave electrolytes in water outside or out period. It should just be drenched. The heat causes bad bacteria to grow rapidly and can do serious harm.



Moody said:


> 1 ml /30 lbs is still too low? I have the safeguard for goats and I think it said 2.9 ml for 120 pound goat.


The dosage on the bottle even though it says for goats is actually labelled for cattle.
That dose is useless.
Most goat vetssay 1ml to 10 lbs



Moody said:


> That vet also recommended corid as he had never heard of di-methox


seriously


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## OneFineAcre (May 18, 2017)

Go to HorsePreRace.com and order Toltrazuril for coccidia

Edited:
At least for the kids and Jrs.  If it is a doe in milk there isn't any data on withdrawal for milk use.
Of course if she is in bad shape you may want to think about getting her well and drying her off.


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## Southern by choice (May 18, 2017)

I agree with @OneFineAcre  you should look into the toltrazuril. 
However vets do not all agree on the spacing of administering it as a preventative. 

When it is already in coccidiosis stage ( meaning clinical) I still think di-methox is best.


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## babsbag (May 18, 2017)

Unfortunately I am not having good luck with toltrazuril for treating kids that are already scouring. I have also had it clear up and come back in 2 weeks. I have a friend here that has the same experience. Di-methox is what I used to use for cocci and I may have to go back to that, at least for kids that are already symptomatic. I have not done prevention this year.   You can not buy the poweded Di-methox without a prescription but at least for now you can still get the injectable OTC.


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## Moody (May 20, 2017)

That first goat is looking so much better. Her stools have solidified, she is eating and she wants her kids back. 

I will hit her with another round of dewormer 10 days after the first round. I have dewormed them all with valbazen. Except the 2 Goats I milk daily and I will get those two today.


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## Moody (May 20, 2017)

I will get all the others with cydectin as well. My fields are infested I am sure.


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## Moody (May 20, 2017)

Oh except my cydectin is for sheep. Vet said to use sheep dosage on the bottle which is 1ml/11 lbs.


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## Southern by choice (May 20, 2017)

If you used valbazen then I'd wait the 3 weeks.
That dosage for the cydectin is accurate and you need accuracy with it. Some go higher for goats but I think the sheep dosage is fine.


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