# How many are currently raising hair breeds of sheep?



## Beekissed

Just trying to gather some information, if I could:  

How many are utilizing these breeds?

Why did you choose them?

What are you using them for(lawn mowers, meat production, etc)?

How long have you been raising them? 

What are your results(as compared to maybe other types you've raised)?

If not currently raising them:  How many are curious about hair sheep?


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## Hillsvale

I have katahdin ewe and ram and a katahdin dorper cross... among others.

I processed a single (as in single lamb) katahdin/dorper cross at 6 months... he was massive... dressed at 46 pounds, I also processed a 8 month old horned dorset crossed (also a single) with suffolk (I believe)... he was almost half the size dressed at 28 pounds. My pure katahdin ram lamb is slowly catching up...

I had a jacob lamb last year... he was pretty yummy too!

Well I just really like lamb! lol

We let the sheep into the main yard in the summer several days a week... didn't mow once!

We've been doing sheep and goats for 2 years.


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## bonbean01

We have katahdin dorper cross sheep and we chose them because we raise them for meat and have no interest in wool, nor shearing sheep.  They are hardy in cold and hot weather, very sweet and gentle natured and are more resistant to internal parasites than the wool breeds.  They are easy keepers (right now we are slowly decreasing their feed since they are all looking rather portly and we don't want fat ewes when lambing time comes since that is supposed to cause problems.)  We have only a handful ... 4 ewes and 1 ram and may add another ewe now that we have more pasture fenced.


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## ThreeBoysChicks

Breed:      Katahdin
Sex:         One ewe and One whether
Why:        Wanted to add sheep, but did not want to be bothered with sheering and heard that Katahdins were more hardy.
Purpose:   Lawn mowers / Pets.

I run 2 Horses, 4 goats and 2 sheep together.  It is a great mix.  Between the group, they keep the field looking very neat and tiddy.


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## 77Herford

ThreeBoysChicks said:
			
		

> Breed:      Katahdin
> Sex:         One ewe and One whether
> Why:        Wanted to add sheep, but did not want to be bothered with sheering and heard that Katahdins were more hardy.
> Purpose:   Lawn mowers / Pets.
> 
> I run 2 Horses, 4 goats and 2 sheep together.  It is a great mix.  Between the group, they keep the field looking very neat and tiddy.


40 Katahdin and 10 Katahdin/BF Dorper crosses. 3 BF Dorper Rams
Didn't want wool and they are for meat.


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## Queen Mum

One Black Bellied Hair Sheep.  He's a Ram.   He's a pet.  We got him because he rammed people.  He doesn't do that anymore because it took three times of stepping aside and throwing him and he just got up, shook himself off and then never did it again.  He's a dear sweet elderly fellow now, but he's been around for a LONG, LONG time.   He's 13 + years old.  I wish we had more like him.  A doe or two.


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## Beekissed

Do any of you have difficulty finding any publications that feature care and husbandry of hair breeds?


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## Beekissed

Here is a website you may all be interested in....VERY informative and comprehensive about many things to do with the different breeds of hair sheep, how they do against wool breeds and even against Boer goats on weaning wts and carcass, how the different hair breeds compare in different areas on feed conversion, etc. 

From everything I've read here and other places, it seems that Katahdins finish out the best on average for just about every trial...even if it is only marginally better than the other hair breeds at times.

http://sheepandgoat.com/HairSheepWorkshop/index.html


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## ShadyAcres

I live about 1 hr south of Nash, TN.  Originally my husband and I ran a few cattle on our 70 acre farm.  When we sold out of cattle we looked at alternative livestock as we were getting older, kids gone, we wanted something easier to handle.  We originally thought about goats, but would have to do too much fencing.  A lot of research piqued our interest in hair sheep and we visited 2 semi local farms  one registered Katahdin, one registered White Dorper.   We like both breeds but couldnt put out the money at that time for registered stock and found another semi local farm with a commercial flock.  So in 2005 we purchased 10 bred (by Full Blood White Dorper) ewes, 3 of which were pure (unregistered) Kats, the remaining mixed by varying degrees with White Dorper.  

We were hooked.

As far as management issues went, we found little difference in the full Kats versus the almost full Dorpers, other than growth rate on the lambs.  The owner of the reg Dorper flock became a good friend and mentor and when he sold out his Pure Breds and went to Full Bloods, we purchased several young bred ewes.  We now run a flock of about 50 Pure Bred ewes and always have or use Full Blood rams.

This year my lamb sales coincided with the Easter sale, and I sold most of my ram lambs at 45  60 days old (straight off of mom with no weaning time) and all lambs weighed 45 to 60 lbs except one lamb at 42 lbs (he was a triplet) and a few lambs over 60 lbs.  

Previously, we lambed anywhere from Dec to Feb.  We lamb in open fields with access to a small open front shed.  Once they have lambed, moms and babies are moved to another pasture with access to a barn.  In the beginning, I tried to move moms and babies to the barn when weather was bad, but they were happier out side, so now I only move them if one is birthing or just had lambs during extreme weather conditions.  

This year, we hosted our first (soon to be annual) stock dog trial Labor Day weekend so ewes were not bred until late Sept.  Ewe lambs are either sold as breeding stock or held for replacement.  I keep a handful of ram lambs to sell as breeding stock, a few for my freezer and the rest are sold at market.  This year we kept most of our ewe lambs as we sold several of the older stock and next year we will also keep most of the ewe lambs as we want our flock size around 75 head.  

With flushing the ewes and keeping a ram in close proximity, I average at lowest 169 % lambing rate.  This year everyone lambed within 2 weeks, last year in 3.  Next lambing season may be longer as I am using a 9 month old ram with my ewes as well as a friends for a total of about 70 ewes.  I have 20 ewe lambs that I will breed in Dec.

Ewes - whether bred or open, older or lambs - sell quick.  I no longer advertise and have people call often looking for any female they can get.  Rams sell slower, but fall is when I get most of my calls for them.  

We dont make a lot of money on our sheep as we keep putting so much back into them, but when the vet practice I worked for sold we decided to try to make a go out of it with just the one income.  Hopefully they will pay off in the long run.

Our only regrets  as far as the sheep business goes, is that we didnt start this sooner!

Visit my web pages:    
ShadyAcresSheep.com (farm page)    ShadyAcresSDT.com (our Dog Trial)    or msrda.org (Mid South Regional Dorper Assoc)

~Paula


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## Beekissed

I love these responses, folks!    I studied on breeds of sheep for around three years before I decided on a breed, then I studied the breed to see if there was any downsides to the breed I wanted.  Originally I was wanting Dorpers or Dorper cross ewes and surveyed a farm that raised them. 

The farmer's husbandry techniques didn't fall in line with the methods I intended to use and I found his operation, though neat and orderly on the outside, incredibly filthy and stinky on the inside of the barn/pens.  I found that he grained all winter and I was specifically getting hair sheep for their proficiency on grass without the need for supplemental grains. 

The next farmer was raising ST. Croix/Katahdin cross sheep and my first view of his farm was disappointing.  It looked like he was raising sheep in the middle of a farm dump....I'd never seen so much rusted metal and weeds in my life and so close to the house and barns.  But...inside the barn I found sweet smelling, calm, quiet sheep in clean surroundings.  

The farmer had raised Suffolk sheep, switched to hair breeds and had initially supplemented with grain like he was used to doing with the Suffolks.  He found that his hair sheep didn't exactly thrive on that feed and even showed poor lambing percentages on it.  When he switched to mainly grass/hay feed, his lambing was at around 200% and his ewes stayed in better condition, had easier lambings and nursing, less health difficulties all around.

I was hooked!  He and I exchanged our ideas on animal husbandry and, though we differed on a few points, we both seemed to learn a few things along the way.  I bought sheep from him, and when I needed to move and needed a place for my sheep, I gave the same ewes right back to him.  I learned so much along the way and I found that, of all livestock, I love raising these hair breed sheep the most.  I never thought I'd love them so much...I love their personalities, the way they smell, their thriftiness on feed, their easy care and the big lambs they finish off.  

In the course of that learning, I found that I particularly liked the hardiness, easy shedding, sweetness of temperament, good lambing and mothering and the milkiness of the pure Katahdins and found it to be superior to the SC/Kat cross ewes I had.  They also stayed well and fatter on the grass and hay I provided.  

I hope to start again one day with sheep and hope to have Katahdins once again.


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## EllieMay

This is a very informative thread.   

I hope others who raise hair sheep will chime in and share their stories.

There are a lot of us out here who are still in the investigative stage and are contemplating getting Katahdins (or another hair breed).

I, personally have decided to get some Katahdins next Spring.  I would like to have them for meat, lawn mowing, and breeding/selling.

I read the posts here to gleen nformation and tips from people who are or have raised hair sheep.

Okay . . . 'nuf said.  

Back to reading . . .


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## bigshawn

I too am very interested in hair sheep, I too have settled on Katahdins to start with seems the best way to go for a newbe like myself, easy care meat sheep............


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## Beekissed

Here are a few articles you may be interested in:

http://www.farmingmagazine.com/print-1160.aspx

http://www.grownlocalok.com/news/grown-local-ok-history-of-katahdin-sheep-hair-and-meat-sheep

http://www.painteddesertsheepsociety.com/

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/royalwhite/index.htm

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/stcroix/index.htm

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/dorper/index.htm

http://www.blackbellysheep.org/

Anyone own any other hair breeds and want to share info about them, please feel free to do so!


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## bigshawn

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Here are a few articles you may be interested in:
> 
> http://www.farmingmagazine.com/print-1160.aspx
> 
> http://www.grownlocalok.com/news/grown-local-ok-history-of-katahdin-sheep-hair-and-meat-sheep
> 
> http://www.painteddesertsheepsociety.com/
> 
> http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/royalwhite/index.htm
> 
> http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/stcroix/index.htm
> 
> http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/dorper/index.htm
> 
> http://www.blackbellysheep.org/
> 
> Anyone own any other hair breeds and want to share info about them, please feel free to do so!


Thank you so much I'm on them right now.............


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## carolinagirl

I got hair sheep because I did not want goats again and did not want to deal with wool.  I originally chose Barbados Blackbelly sheep.  They are gorgeous animals, VERY hardy (I have not dewormed them yet) and the meat is very lean.  On the downside, they are slow to grow and are very flighty.  I have 6 ewes and a ram, and also a little baby ram lamb who will be my replacement ram next year.  I decided I'd also like a breed of sheep that matured faster and larger so I got Katahdins.  I have a ram and 6 ewes.  I'll be breeding all of my ewes in December.  Katahdins are very hardy (especially as compared to goats) but not as hardy as the blackbelly sheep.  They are also very easy to handle.  All of these sheep are a breeze to care for!  I give them a little supplemental feed in the evening to get them to come into the paddock (the feed is half all-stock and half alfalfa pellets)and hay only.


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## boykin2010

I chose hair sheep because i am lazy and didnt want to shear the wool. It also doesnt sell for very much in my area. 
I had a field that was being wasted and i decided to put sheep on it. I also eat the meat and sell lambs locally. So they are lawnmowers and meat sheep
I will have been raising them one year in January.
I have never raised another breed but I LOVE my sheep. Great mothers, meaty, friendly, productive, and great lawn mowers 

I cant imagine not having sheep now. I think i will have them for the rest of my life


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## boothcreek

I currently have a flock of American Black Bellies(3 rams, 3 ewes), Painted Desert(1 ram, 1 ewe), European Mouflon(1 ram, 1 ewe) and a ABBXKatahdinXDorper ewe lamb destined for the freezer.

I love love love these Sheep! Never knew there was hair sheep until a friend of mine got into breeding Kats and Dorpers(4 yrs ago now), we like lamb but didn't want the wool so hair sheep seemed like an awesome Idea. 
Kats and Dorpers are nice, esspecially being larger but I find their character too dependant I suppose. I am a big Fan of wild sheep or basically any of the more "primitive(we call them "wilds" here on the farm)" type of farm animal that has retained their instincts and are very independant.  At least thats how I would put it, I seem to have a much easier time handling and bonding with the more wild-instinct driven types.

The KatXDorperXbarbados got her moms character(katXdorper) and I can't stand the thing(always had kat or droper crosses but none with ABB in them, I hoped it would improve the character a bit-NOT-). She is flighty, which the ABBs and Moufs are too, but they always are aware and watch and learn even when they spook and recover themselfs quick and evaluate if that reaction was appropriate or not and go from there, this ewe lamb is like all the other more domestic varieties I had so far. Non-thinking!  If she spooks she runs blindly and if she gets herself in trouble she doesn't learn from it at all........

Even my mother who doesn't like the sheep much in any case says "stop getting those domestic crosses, stick with the -wilds-". No offense to any of you who keep kats and dorpers etc. I love them and when I see them at other breeders I want them every time, thats why I always end up with 1 or 2 in my flock but for how I handle and keep my sheep their temperament just doesn't fit here(oddly enough those I can never get tame or even remotely calm, but my "wilds" will mug me for attention). Just something how they react to situations compared to my other breeds is down right infuriating at times.
I don't mind the slower growth of the breeds I keep, and the smaller carcass doesn't bother us either. 
They are easy going and a breeze to keep(free-range in our case). I don't worm or vaccinate unless I introduce new animals in the flock. And every couple weeks I call them in the barn for foot inspection and over all closer looks(or like right now to seperate the due-any-day girls in the stall to birth).


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## Beekissed

I found the same thing to be true with the St. Croix/Kat cross ewes I had....they seemed more SC than Kat, were more wild and smarter than the pure Kat I had.  She was more docile and easy to work with but the SC crosses were like deer in the way they interacted with their environment.  Flighty but with real purpose for it and not just running willy-nilly for no reason.  

My SC crosses also developed a game with my dog wherein they would chase him and he would chase them back but the Kat never really got into the game like the wilder SC ewes.  

I think the BBS are very beautiful and have noticed they make good mothers, not to mention are extremely hardy.


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## abbylane35

My husband and I have Katahdins.  I had Dorsets when I was younger and in 4-H.  I have always loved the sheep...they have such a great personality.  My husband's boss has a Katahdin flock, and many of the mama's were not nursing their babies last spring, so I ended up taking 8 bottle babies to raise.  He ended up taking three of them back when they were weaned, and we kept the rest.  Four ewes and one ram.  We sold the ram due to it being related to some of our ewes.  

We are raising them mainly because we like the idea of having animals around ( I grew up on a dairy farm, and have raised sheep, chickens, ducks, ponies, and miniature horses) and we had the land to put them on.  We aren't going to use our original flock for meat, but may use the offspring.  We recently purchased a red Katahdin ram for breeding purposes.

I like the idea of having hair sheep because the one thing I dreaded every year with the Dorsets was the shearing.  

We have had our Katahdins for a year and a half.  They are easy to raise.  They are babies...we often let them out of their pasture to roam around our lawn...they don't go far, and come back into their pen with a jingle of our keys...

Honestly I didn't even realize that there were hair sheep until I met my husband's boss and went to see his flock.  I thought my husband was joking when he said that the sheep's hair falls off instead of needing to be sheared.  They are a very docile breed, and remind me a lot of my Dorsets, minus the shearing!  We haven't had any problems with our Katahdins.  They have been absolutely wonderful for us so far!  Hopefully we will have some babies in the spring!

However, one thing that my husband's boss has said is that some of them are GREAT mothers, and some immediately disown their babies when they are born.  I know this can be true of all animals and breeds, but this is one thing that he always talks about.  He has a pretty large operation (well, compared to my five) of, at times, nearly 300 sheep.  I don't even know if the man sleeps during lambing season...

We even have a Rottweiler, who is about the same age as the lambs, that often roams around with them...I don't know if the dog thinks he is a sheep, or if the sheep thing they are a herd of dogs...they don't seem to mind him at all.


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## EllieMay

Thank you for sharing. Sounds wonderful.

We recently drove out to meet a guy who raises Katahdin sheep and we've decided to buy some from him in the Spring.

We'll get 6 ewes and a ram.

I CAN'T WAIT!


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## Beekissed

That's weird about that man's flock and their mothering skills...the place I purchased mine said that the mothers were TOO good and would nurse any lamb in the flock, unlike other breeds of sheep.  I stood there and watched them doing just that...this lamb nipping in under that ewe that wasn't his mama and then returning to his own mom and taking a nip there also.  

Maybe he didn't have enough time to jug them up together, with that big of a herd?  I know my breeder said that, if a ewe has twins that sometimes she will get too far away from the first one during the birth(out on pasture)of the second and only claim the second lamb.  I know the Kats are pretty consistent twinners, so this may be his problem?


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## abbylane35

I don't know, it could be...he has scaled way down now, so it would be interesting to see how they do with a smaller flock.   I hope that my girls are great mommies!


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## CajunChick

I believe I've got my hubs talked in to getting some katahdin..  Can't wait. I'll start looking in the spring!!


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## Hillsvale

Mine are great mommies... on of them still "tolerated" her 6 month old to nurse for about 3.5 seconds... right to the day we sent him to the butcher.


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## 77Herford

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Do any of you have difficulty finding any publications that feature care and husbandry of hair breeds?


I like the "Story" books on livestock.


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## Beekissed

Do they have one on hair breeds?  I've not found one book on hair breeds and the others about sheep barely mention them in the breeds section.  Usually they are mentioned in a small paragraph...sort of like they don't merit any attention.

I think hair sheep are really catching on in the states and dyed in the wool sheep farmers are starting to realize that hair is where it's at.  I'd like to see some books that reflect that...I'm thinking of writing a book, actually, that will feature hair breeds almost exclusively.


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## aggieterpkatie

There probably aren't many books featuring hair breeds exclusively, because they are still sheep.  They may have slightly different husbandry requirements than wool sheep, but really not that different.  After all, husbandry practices vary greatly between flock to flock anyways, and hair sheep aren't different from that.


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## 77Herford

Yeah, I haven't seen any exclusively Hair sheep book.  There are some good books on sheep.


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## peteyfoozer

I wanted to get some katahdins this year, but all we could find was some Dorper and DorperX ewes. I have 3 of them bred, and an unrelated ram, as well as a big brockle faced wooly and a little Polypay ewe. I can't do the shearing so I am looking forward to see how these do for us as the whole family loves lamb. I still hope to get some Katahdin ewes in the future.
The little guys sure are tough! My Maremmas went to introduce themselves and got a fateful of sheep! Didn't take them long to adapt though. I think I am going to like them.


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## Beekissed

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> There probably aren't many books featuring hair breeds exclusively, because they are still sheep.  They may have slightly different husbandry requirements than wool sheep, but really not that different.  After all, husbandry practices vary greatly between flock to flock anyways, and hair sheep aren't different from that.


What I was wanting and never finding in all the books about sheep was any information about the specific hair breeds like they give about the different wool breeds.  I usually found one paragraph devoted to hair breeds in general and nothing informative about their individual traits, origins, etc.  I would like to compose just such a book about these interesting breeds that are quickly becoming more prominent on the US agricultural scene and discuss just how well they do in the various climates present here and abroad.


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## equinecpa

Breed: Painted Deserts

Why did you choose them? Ease of management(don't have to dock tails, most rams left intact), attractive, no wool, smaller size than some hair sheep

What are you using them for(lawn mowers, meat production, etc)? I use my for herding dog practice, raise/sell

How long have you been raising them? Just under a year

What are your results(as compared to maybe other types you've raised)? These are the only type I've raised but so far I really like them.  They are very easy keepers and for the most part easy to handle.

One downfall I've found is it's hard to show these sheep in 4-H -they lack the stature of the suffolks and even the dorpers so have a hard time competing alongside the other sheep breeds, and our area doesn't have a hair sheep class.


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## Beekissed

I don't know of any who DO have a hair sheep class other than exhibit only.  I'm hoping writing a book about the breeds and getting more info out there will spur on smaller agricultural regions to consider them as worthy as other meat breeds and start opening up opportunities for youths to show them based on their own merits...in other words, without requiring the extreme, or any for that matter, docking of the tails, without the extreme clipped appearance, etc. 

Allowing them to be born earlier to account for their slower growth period, their largely grass diet, etc.  Sure, one could grain them up to get them to grow quicker, but then you'd be losing the true merit of the hair breeds... their ability to thrive well on grass diets, slower growth pattern and their resulting good health.    

I'd also like to see these fairs open up classes for Highland, Galloway and Dexter cattle without expecting them to be judged the same as the usual beef breeds.  Highland cattle are usually shown in full hairy glory and some will be disqualified if they have been kept indoors and do not have a developed coat.  Can you imagine clipping a Highland like one would an Angus?  

I'd love to see more versatility in these county and state fairs to reflect the need for just such a thing in agriculture today.  I think promoting these confined, overfed, extremely clipped, docked and standard fast growing breeds only perpetuates the belief that this is the only answer to growing food animals.


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## SheepGirl

For all of the species...beef, sheep, and swine, our county fair has an "other meat breeds" class. Sheep also have a "other wool breeds" class. This year, a couple of Dorpers were shown. I didn't get a chance to see them shown or see how they placed because my sheep were in a shearing demonstration at the time and I was busy helping/watching.

However, each breed is fitted to and judged against it's own breed standard in the "other" classes. The best individual matching their breed standard is the winner.

By the way...overfed (or underfed) animals don't usually win shows 

Also, what do you think of the Katahdin? I'm interested in getting some.


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## BeccaJoVon

We have only recently started raising sheep.  Due to the drought conditions in our area, we were given Katahdin, two bred older ewes from one rancher and two young rams (born spring 2011) from another.  We bought two St. Croix ewe lambs.  

I wanted sheep, but I did not want wool, and I wanted meat sheep.  I originally wanted Dorper but there just were not any nearby, so I went with what I could get.  We have only had them for a few months, so I really have not had time to develop any solid opinions as of yet.


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## boothcreek

Breeds I'm currently keeping: American Black Bellies, Painted Desert and European Mouflon(dunno if these count as hairsheep or wildlife)

Why did you choose them?
My stepdad likes lamb, I can't stand the strong smell and taste of it. We don't want wool and I wanted a breed that is small enough that I can handle it by myself. A friend of mine was raising kats and dorpers at the time so checked those out but didn't really like their character and looks much. Always liked the look of the Mouflon but couldn't find any and then I stumbled across the American Black Bellie Sheep by accident. Love the looks of them, the bold markings and I am a sucker for Black and Tan. Also small enough that I can wrestle them by myself to do their feet etc. And then too I've been told by barbado and ABB breeders that even intact rams over a year old are still very mild tasting meat wise and lack that strong lamb flavour. 
At the breeder of the ABBs he had a small pen with ewes that were born off-colour(white feet or white in the face or white tail), he said he gets them occasionally cause his flock has been closed for 15 odd years and he just culls the handful off-coloured lambs out of his 400+ flock each year. I bought one and she throws some nice Painted deserts.
2 weeks later I found a mouflon breeder(actually he found me) and I just had to get a pair of those for myself too. Only drawback with the Moufs is that the Rams do go into the Rut between Oct-Jan and have a bit of a smell to them. I compare it to a rutting bull elk, which I think smells awesome. Not comparable to a intact billygoat in anyway, not even 1/4 as strong smelling. You only smell him when your within 5 feet of him.

What are you using them for(lawn mowers, meat production, etc)?
Free-Range eye-candy/shrub mowers and Meat. Also keep and tan the hides.

How long have you been raising them? 
Going on my 3rd year

What are your results(as compared to maybe other types you've raised)?
Very easy going and calmer then the KatXdorpers I have kept now and then. Not as meaty as them either but much less effort put into raising these up since they are very self sufficient when left to do their thing. Also, much finer boned then the bigger breeds so they do surprise you with how much meat you get off that dainty frame of theirs.


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## Beekissed

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> For all of the species...beef, sheep, and swine, our county fair has an "other meat breeds" class. Sheep also have a "other wool breeds" class. This year, a couple of Dorpers were shown. I didn't get a chance to see them shown or see how they placed because my sheep were in a shearing demonstration at the time and I was busy helping/watching.
> 
> However, each breed is fitted to and judged against it's own breed standard in the "other" classes. The best individual matching their breed standard is the winner.
> 
> By the way...overfed (or underfed) animals don't usually win shows
> 
> Also, what do you think of the Katahdin? I'm interested in getting some.


They are my favorite at this moment because they have a good meaty frame, seem taller than the Dorpers I've seen, milky and good mothers, seem to shed off better than the St. Croix and Dorpers and stay so fat on a grass diet.  They are also more available in my area than are the other hair breeds, which makes them somewhat cheaper due to their availability.  I really like how friendly they are compared to the St. Croix and SC crosses~these breeds seem a little more wary and jumpy around humans than the pure Katahdin.  

Of course, YMMV.


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## BeccaJoVon

Beekissed said:
			
		

> They are my favorite at this moment because they have a good meaty frame, seem taller than the Dorpers I've seen, milky and good mothers, seem to shed off better than the St. Croix and Dorpers and stay so fat on a grass diet.  They are also more available in my area than are the other hair breeds, which makes them somewhat cheaper due to their availability.  I really like how friendly they are compared to the St. Croix and SC crosses~these breeds seem a little more wary and jumpy around humans than the pure Katahdin.
> 
> Of course, YMMV.


When you say shed, do you mean as in their hair?  I'm asking because my St. Croix aren't "wooly" at all.  They are really slick-haired sheep.


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## Beekissed

Katahdins have a fine, soft wool on the biggest parts of their body and hair underneath and on the tail.  My SC/Kat mix gals had wiry hair with just a dab of woolly fibers mixed in along their backs, necks and hips.  The pure Kat ewe would shed this wool topcoat in large sheets that could be plucked or pulled off, leaving soft woolly hair underneath, whereas the SC cross ewes had mangy looking patches of short woolly fibers that tended to hang around awhile and look ratty.  When they finally shed off their hair never really looked slick...just wiry and short.  

The farmer I purchased from had pure SC that were more slick, as you describe.


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## Heavenly Springs Farm

My son who is 5 used his own money to buy three shetland ewes this fall, which were with a ram for two months this fall. So hopefully, he will get lambs from them this spring.

Why did you choose them? He has been wanting to get sheep for awhile. Since I am a spinner I wanted a breed I could spin their wool. We have a wonderful breeder that lives 10 mins away.

What are you using them for(lawn mowers, meat production, etc)? They will be used for showing, wool, and we might eat the ram lambs

How long have you been raising them? I can't say we raise them yet since we got them this fall.


----------



## BeccaJoVon

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Katahdins have a fine, soft wool on the biggest parts of their body and hair underneath and on the tail.  My SC/Kat mix gals had wiry hair with just a dab of woolly fibers mixed in along their backs, necks and hips.  The pure Kat ewe would shed this wool topcoat in large sheets that could be plucked or pulled off, leaving soft woolly hair underneath, whereas the SC cross ewes had mangy looking patches of short woolly fibers that tended to hang around awhile and look ratty.  When they finally shed off their hair never really looked slick...just wiry and short.
> 
> The farmer I purchased from had pure SC that were more slick, as you describe.


This is interesting.  As you may remember, I am just now starting to raise hair sheep, and I really don't have much experience.  However, I saw no wooly-looking sheep when I went to get my St. Croix, and they had around 50 head.  My sister has a few Katahdin, and this summer, one of them had the patches of hair that never fell off.  

I have a couple of St. Croix ewe lambs, a couple Katahdin ewes, and I'm going to be using a Katahdin ram.  I wonder if I can look forward to some scraggly sheep with the SC/Kat mix?  I hope not.


----------



## TexasShepherdess

How many are utilizing these breeds? I have dorpers..afew of my ewes are percentage dorper crossed with Kat's.

Why did you choose them? Parasite resistance, heat resistance, non seasonal lambings//plus I just liked the way they looked..stocky,meaty animals!

What are you using them for(lawn mowers, meat production, etc)? intially stockdog work..then I went sheep crazy and now raise them. have my fullblood ram and 7 ewes.

How long have you been raising them? Had sheep for about 2 years now..did not start "Raising" them really til I got my ram, which was alittle over a year ago.

What are your results(as compared to maybe other types you've raised)? These are my first sheep..I've had goats before..hated them..little destructive beings. I am looking forward to my son showing his ewe at the county 4-h show next week. They actually offer hair classes at our show, last year a dorper was res. champion market lamb..they seem to be gaining in popularity.

If not currently raising them:  How many are curious about hair sheep?


----------



## Hillsvale

boothcreek said:
			
		

> Also keep and tan the hides.


What is your process for tanning the hides?


----------



## Beekissed

> These are my first sheep..*I've had goats before..hated them..little destructive beings*. I am looking forward to my son showing his ewe at the county 4-h show next week. *They actually offer hair classes at our show, last year a dorper was res. champion market lamb..they seem to be gaining in popularity*.


You got that right!     I don't particularly care for goats either and get more firm in that every time I read a thread on here about how many diseases, parasites, nutritional deficiencies and birthing problems they have.  You couldn't GIVE me a goat.  

The Dorper winning reserve champion is great news!  I'm so glad that some areas are catching the hair sheep vibe and incorporating them into agricultural and 4-H type shows, as they do seem to be more popular at this time.


----------



## EllieMay

Beekissed said:
			
		

> . . . The Dorper winning reserve champion is great news!  I'm so glad that some areas are catching the hair sheep vibe and incorporating them into agricultural and 4-H type shows, as they do seem to be more popular at this time.


*x2*


----------



## TexasShepherdess

Beekissed said:
			
		

> These are my first sheep..*I've had goats before..hated them..little destructive beings*. I am looking forward to my son showing his ewe at the county 4-h show next week. *They actually offer hair classes at our show, last year a dorper was res. champion market lamb..they seem to be gaining in popularity*.
> 
> 
> 
> You got that right!     I don't particularly care for goats either and get more firm in that every time I read a thread on here about how many diseases, parasites, nutritional deficiencies and birthing problems they have.  You couldn't GIVE me a goat.
> 
> The Dorper winning reserve champion is great news!  I'm so glad that some areas are catching the hair sheep vibe and incorporating them into agricultural and 4-H type shows, as they do seem to be more popular at this time.
Click to expand...

You know whats funny..so many people told me sheep are "looking for a place to die"..I havent seen that personally..they are quite hardy and easy to care for..I hate to be crass..but I wouldnt take a free goat after having my sheep..LOL

It is good hairs are getting some recoginition at our shows..they are very popular down here with our heat in the summer. I am excited to see what the ewe lamb does in the breeding sheep class next week.


----------



## Beekissed

I feel the same way and everyone told me the same thing....but then, everyone who told me that were raising woolly breeds and graining their lambs to get them market ready.

I'd say that might be true if not raising something as easy as these hair breeds.  They thrive on grass and hay, require little intervention, seem disease and parasite resistant...this makes them easy in my book.  

Of course, I might have a different story to tell if I was raising sheep in volume and for many years...but I doubt it.  Most of the hair breeder sites report the same good results, particularly if raising these sheep on grass instead of grain based feeds.


----------



## boothcreek

Hillsvale said:
			
		

> boothcreek said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also keep and tan the hides.
> 
> 
> 
> What is your process for tanning the hides?
Click to expand...

Take them to work with me(taxidermist) and send them in with the deer, elk, bear etc furs to the tannery. Tried tanning myself and dry tanning is a pain to do and my shoulders can't handle the workout.
Get the medical grade tan, white leather and safe to use for children etc makes for a nice shiny fur.


----------



## Hillsvale

boothcreek said:
			
		

> Hillsvale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boothcreek said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also keep and tan the hides.
> 
> 
> 
> What is your process for tanning the hides?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Take them to work with me(taxidermist) and send them in with the deer, elk, bear etc furs to the tannery. Tried tanning myself and dry tanning is a pain to do and my shoulders can't handle the workout.
> Get the medical grade tan, white leather and safe to use for children etc makes for a nice shiny fur.
Click to expand...



cheater ... 

I have all the gear but like you don't have the strength to manage the stripping... left them out for the birds who did a great job and have the chemicals to do the washing etc but dont want to send them into the yard....


----------



## TexasShepherdess

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I feel the same way and everyone told me the same thing....but then, everyone who told me that were raising woolly breeds and graining their lambs to get them market ready.
> 
> I'd say that might be true if not raising something as easy as these hair breeds.  They thrive on grass and hay, require little intervention, seem disease and parasite resistant...this makes them easy in my book.
> 
> Of course, I might have a different story to tell if I was raising sheep in volume and for many years...but I doubt it.  Most of the hair breeder sites report the same good results, particularly if raising these sheep on grass instead of grain based feeds.


Yep..I honestly have not had a more easy to maintain animal then my sheep.

I am also impressed with their toughness..a bobcat attacked my flock this past summer..got my son's original market wether..and tore my ram up pretty bad. He was not in good shape..and is abit of a jackwad..but he allowed me to doctor him..no fight..for about a month. He suffered no permanent issues from his attack either.

This is what I like to see..a good looking, stocky lamb.


----------



## Beekissed

That is a beautiful lamb....I love the markings!


----------



## TexasShepherdess

thank you!
She is the hair ewe my son will be showing at the county show next week..hope she does the hairs proud!


----------



## aggieterpkatie

TexasShepherdess said:
			
		

> This is what I like to see..a good looking, stocky lamb.
> http://coyotecreekranch.weebly.com/uploads/7/4/0/5/7405615/8024009.jpeg?367


Good looking lamb!   I swear, if I ever switch to a hair breed it'll be Dorper.  There are some build like brick....well, I won't finish that, but you get my drift.


----------



## TexasShepherdess

she was called by the ag teacher a "meat truck"..LOL..I love a stocky meaty sheep..


----------



## Beekissed

EllieMay said:
			
		

> Beekissed said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . . . The Dorper winning reserve champion is great news!  I'm so glad that some areas are catching the hair sheep vibe and incorporating them into agricultural and 4-H type shows, as they do seem to be more popular at this time.
> 
> 
> 
> *x2*
Click to expand...

About that Dorper...was wondering if they had docked the tail like they do the woolly breeds or did they judge on hair sheep standards of undocked tails?

I looked up a few hair sheep in shows and was disappointed to see the Royal Whites with docked tails but was gratified to learn that St. Croix standards disqualified if the body showed any signs of clipping or docking and the Katahdin Associations seem to discourage raising the sheep for show...anyone else have any info on this?


----------



## ShadyAcres

I am not a show person, my sheep are raised for production.  Kids are grown and gone so don't see the 4-H shows anymore.  Have been to a few sheep shows and the only hair sheep seen were Dorpers, and have been to Dorper show / sales.  They were all docked.  And shaved.  A friends kids shows Dorpers in 4-H shows and they (show string) are all docked and shaved as well.

At first with my lambs I only docked animals that were to be retained as breeding stock.  If a long tailed lamb wound up looking like breeding quality it would be the last one picked.  If a short taied lamb did not grow like I expected and moved to market group it usually went first.  Lambs sent to sale barn do not sell any differently here if tails or not, or if rams or wethers.  

I had 4 ram lambs left averaging around 100 lbs.  A Mexican came Christmas eve looking for Christmas dinner.  He picked the one that had no tail even though he was the smallest of the group - only by about 10 lbs.  This man is a repeat customer and usually wants the biggest, no matter the age.  The short tailed lamb just _looked _heavier muscled.


----------



## Beekissed

Does this customer usually only pick docked sheep?  If so, could it be that he is used to buying meat sheep that have been docked and associates docking with better, meatier sheep as opposed to those with tails?  

Do you think the kids who show Dorper in meat classes at 4-H dock and shave because they know they have no way of winning anything if their lambs aren't looking like the rest of the meat breeds?  Or do they have different judging standards for hair breeds that encourages leaving the tails and natural hair growth but the kids still dock and shave because they feel they can't really compete with the other breeds in the market class due to being judged against a field of docked and clipped lambs?

I'd really like to know and I'd like to see if hair sheep will finally nudge their way into the meat classes on their own merits, judged solely for their meat quality and build and not their hair and tails.    

I know my sister found out real quick and in a hurry that her Highland beef wouldn't bring the same price at auction as Angus or similar beef breeds, even though they are comprised of beef, look beefy and meaty~ but have hairy hides and horns.  The old farmers there told her they won't sell because they LOOK different, not because they ARE different.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I know my sister found out real quick and in a hurry that her Highland beef wouldn't bring the same price at auction as Angus or similar beef breeds, even though they are comprised of beef, look beefy and meaty~ but have hairy hides and horns.  The old farmers there told her they won't sell because they LOOK different, not because they ARE different.


Could be a huge difference in handling though, with those horns.  Many people just don't like horns period.


----------



## Beekissed

These would be sold for meat and not for herd replacement purposes.  The younger steers don't have much in the horn department that would discourage handling and transport to the butcher. 

They told her that even a shaggy Angus brings less at market, so breeding her Highland bull over Angus cows, yielding a polled black cow with shaggy, thick fur~which is perfect for her windy and cold mountain farm~ would yield her less at market.  

I would have to agree with the older farmers....even a Hereford brings less than an Angus in that area.  Angus cattle are king and Hampshire sheep and their crosses rule the shows and markets.  

I've always wondered if that is purely a regional thing in WV or if that is the norm in other places also?


----------



## ShadyAcres

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Does this customer usually only pick docked sheep?  If so, could it be that he is used to buying meat sheep that have been docked and associates docking with better, meatier sheep as opposed to those with tails?
> 
> *This guy just typically wants the biggest.  Sex age etc has no importance to him.  Loves cull ewes.  And when he calls, he asks if I have any Goats available....  The tail on the lambs just makes the rump look longer - narrower?  No tails, rumps look rounder.  Wish I took pictures before they were gone.  *
> 
> Do you think the kids who show Dorper in meat classes at 4-H dock and shave because they know they have no way of winning anything if their lambs aren't looking like the rest of the meat breeds?  Or do they have different judging standards for hair breeds that encourages leaving the tails and natural hair growth but the kids still dock and shave because they feel they can't really compete with the other breeds in the market class due to being judged against a field of docked and clipped lambs?
> 
> *A lot of the fairs here (TN) now have classes for Dorpers.  Some Dorpers are still shown in Hair class.  I assume since all in the class were Dorper and all were shaved / docked it is a requirement, but don't know for sure.*


----------



## TexasShepherdess

regarding cattle-the "angus angus angus" mindset of some is partyly due to that angus IS considered by many to be a very good breed in terms of what commerical cattlemen consider "ideal"..and partly due to the intense marketing done by the Angus assoc..

I like a mix of Angus with some Brahma influence in there for our hot summers..my cows will be out grazing when others are panting in the shade..plus I do love the look of brahma blood..

regarding docking and such. I know alot of hair sheep people..some dock, some don't..the "Extreme docking" I think is done mainly by people who breed alot of purebred stock or show their stock. My ram came from a show program..he just never got tall enough for his breeder's liking..(hence my getting him)..but he has NO tail. I had always been taught to dock the tail where the "skin crosses"..which leaves a tiny "nub".

I have two ewes now with undocked tails, bought them that way..while the "health benefit" of tail docking is not a big deal with hair sheep..I still dock mine to leave a nub..I was told undocked tails can be counted off if showing (not sure why)..

Regarding the clipping..I actually have NO problem with that..my biggest peeve with showing cattle is how hair can be manipulated to "Fix" things on the cattle..with slick shearing, there is NO hiding..what you see is what you get..and I feel its a more honest type of showing. So while it's a pain to have to clip our hair ewe..I am OK with it..it will showcase my lamb's TRUE conformation. 

Our stockshow requires ALL sheep, unless its a finewool breeding ewe, to be slick sheared...so many shows require the slick shearing..

I know with Dorpers, traditionaly in Africa, they are allowed to be shown with about 2 inches of hair..but not here in the states.


----------



## Beekissed

That's a real shame...I know why they skin them so closely, so they can really _see_ the muscling and form of the sheep.  But...docking the tails so the rump _appears_ more round?  It may _appear_ more round but no amount of docking can_ make_ the rump more round... It's a shame that the judges and the rules require this unnecessary and potentially damaging mutilation of the sheep.   Might as well require it of the cattle as well...wouldn't that make their rumps look more round and meaty?


----------



## TexasShepherdess

LOL..potentially! I would pay though to see anyone try to dock my cows' tails! 

That is show animals..you know what interesting..alot of those animals shown "heavily" usually cant cut the mustard when you go to actually USE them (example-a heifer getting to fat and thus having calving issues)


----------



## SheepGirl

I don't know...some of those buggers can be quite productive. My friend raises Shrops and Suffolks as show sheep and she has one ewe (Shrop) that produces triplets every year. And her lambs always are in the top five in either the market or breeding classes. That said, they grow pretty well, too, because judges look for well-grown animals for their age.


----------



## Beekissed

I agree...it seems an oxymoron, doesn't it?  Many of the ewes bought at shows with extreme docking then have birthing, vaginal or rectal prolapse, etc. problems.  They may be a fine example of the breed but, due to docking and early~ and large grain feeding~ to increase size before showing, they tend to not be hardy and productive. 

I've seen dairy cattle with docked tails and it is the saddest thing ever....I can't imagine the misery in the summer when they need the tails for fly avoidance.


----------



## theawesomefowl

My mom thinks my sheeps' tails are ugly, but I think they're funny! Almost like squirrel tails.


----------



## SheepGirl

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I've seen dairy cattle with docked tails and it is the saddest thing ever....I can't imagine the misery in the summer when they need the tails for fly avoidance.


But you must remember that the dairy producers that dock their cattle tend to have them in confinement...usually in the form of free stall barns (my friend with the 400 cow dairy does this). And those barns are pretty high tech, too. They have fans going and they are automatically cleaned out once a day. They dock them usually right above the switch to help keep the udder clean. (With 400 cows to milk, they don't have a lot of time to clean the udders more than they do already before milking).


----------



## Beekissed

The ones I have seen were all standing out in knee deep mud and manure, hunkered in whatever shade the building(without any overhang or shelter)could provide in the blazing heat.   Big ol Holstein cows with stumps for tails and knee deep in muck....I wonder where THAT milk goes. 

Saw that at two different dairy operations in this state...and that's just in my little area.  How many more places are managed in this way instead of the temp controlled, clean and shiny barns?  I don't normally eat any commercially produced dairy products, so it means little to me...but think of all the people who think their milk comes from the nice, shiny place instead of the misery and muck.


----------



## SheepGirl

I didn't know there were any dry lot dairies here on the East Coast (don't know if WV is considered on the East Coast, but you're right next to MD...). Just thought that was out in the Midwest and West. Interesting. Personally I don't think dry lotting animals here on this side of the country is that great of an idea because of the moisture and humidity. It's fine if they are smaller animals (aka not cattle or horses, but sheep, goats, etc) because they poop less and if the dry lot is strategically located (i.e. on a downward slope with the main "living areas" (shelter, feed, etc) on the top of the hill). But that's just me.

ETA: Oops...this thread is getting off-topic. Bee, if you want to, make a new thread about your opinions of show animals and then we can move this discussion (if you want to continue it) to a more appropriate place.


----------



## Beekissed

Nah...it's fine.  That's how normal discussions on the front porch usually go anyway~at least at MY house.    I like to learn what I can, where I can, so I don't even think hijacking is a valid term...it's rather a bonus to find this type of discussion in the middle of a hair sheep thread.


----------



## TexasShepherdess

Let me rephrase..IME its not the individual ANIMAL,..its more the showing methods that cause alot more potential issues when you put that animal back into your herd...


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## aggieterpkatie

Many dairies don't graze their cows, but have exercise lots available.  Not all cows are kept in the nice barns all day, and I'd say most dairies out here turn out their cows either in pastures or lots.  And I hate docking cow tails too.  Yeah, getting a poopy tail in the face isn't fun (ask me how I know), but honestly it doesn't happen ALL that often, and the cows need their tails.  

And I'm not against docking sheep tails, but I do hate extreme docking.    A sheep's rump should not look like it has an innie belly button!


----------



## EllieMay

This is one of the reasons I chose hair sheep.
No routine docking of the tails!


----------



## Beekissed

That wasn't one of the main reasons for me but it _was_ an attractant.  After I saw how often they use their tails, I was amazed~ and saddened for the sheep who didn't have tails to use.  Mine used their tails for fly removal, to direct fecal matter away from their bodies, to signal heat, signal danger, etc.  They were like deer!  

Love those tails!


----------



## EllieMay

So true!

I watch the other livestock in surrounding farms (some with docked tails and some with tails).

I feel so sorry for the animals with no tails.  

It's kinda sad to watch them struggle in vain to swat flies.


----------



## Beekissed

All they can do is stomp their feet....my sheep do that too, but they also have those tails going like a helicopter!


----------



## peteyfoozer

My little ram has his tail, but the ewes I bought have NONE. I was and am a little worried about prolapse, but one has been so big, and her bag has been so full, for so long, that I have come to the conclusion she is not really pregnant, but just a really fat, lumpy ewe with really big boobs.


----------



## CAMilkmaid

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Why did you choose them?
> 
> What are you using them for(lawn mowers, meat production, etc)?
> 
> How long have you been raising them?
> 
> What are your results(as compared to maybe other types you've raised)?


I choose all my livestock from the ALBC list of rare heritage breeds in need of conservation. So, I chose to raise registered St. Croix Hair sheep.

Besides breed preservation, I'm raising them to sell breeding stock and provide meat for our family and some to sell. I do multi species rotational grazing in our grass pastures, so also needed sheep to help with weed control. I use them to weed in other areas, like the orchards, too.

I bought a ram and 3 bred ewes in Dec. 2010.

This is my first attempt to raise sheep and I'm pleased. They are easy to raise, almost problem free. A couple of the ewes are actually friendly. The ram is cooperative and hasn't shown aggression to me. They are a good balance of not being flighty, yet respecting your space. Other sheep breed producers have remarked to me that they are very calm. They are very easy to contain, don't jump fences, and easily follow a bucket. They do threaten my one dog who is new to sheep but respect my dog with herding experience. When I have to feed hay, they sure eat a whole lot less than cows & horses! They shed completely. I sold a ram lamb and have had interest from Katahdin breeders in using the SC to improve the shedding ability in their hair sheep. 
I've been told that the SC does not have as much meat as the K. I have our first butcher lamb about ready to slaughter, so can't comment on the meat, yet. I don't like lamb from wool breeds but liked the lamb that I tasted from a Dorper. So, I'm hoping that the SC tastes as good as Dorper.
The ewes gave birth last March, their first lambs, all singles. I was hoping that they would breed back sooner, but am waiting for the second crop of lambs any day now. I did have a tragedy. One ewe gave birth to a single lamb one night, a couple weeks ago, when the temps dropped into the 20's. She had the lamb on the bare ground instead of going into the straw bedded shed. I found the lamb dead in the morning. She had licked it completely clean & dry. She was devoted to it, wouldn't even leave the birth spot and cried for two days. Necropsy revealed that it had breathed but not nursed and showed no cause of death. I'm just so sad over this. I should have locked her in the shed and I am closing the other ewes in, at night, now. 

Kim
Star.Rose Ranch
Guinda CA


----------



## EllieMay

The St. Croix are another awesome breed.  I may still get a few some time in the future.

I'm so sorry about your dead baby lamb.  That's so sad, especially for the ewe mom.

We'll also be raising sheep for meat and breeding.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Well, after boarding a few katahdins for a few months in the summer, I didn't really see them use their tails much.  They flipped around when they ran (which was amusing), but I didn't notice much "control" over their tail.  They wiggled them like docked sheep do, but I didn't see them swishing flies like horses or cattle, and not like it would do much good because their tails aren't all that long to begin with.


----------



## Beekissed

Nope, not like horses or cattle...more like deer.  A jiggle and flip motion that keeps the flies off their hoo-hoos and bums...which I think would be a useful action.  My sheep's tails were quite long considering animals similar, like goats or deer.


----------



## wava1vaughn

Hi from Ga.  We raise Barbados ( Black Belly ) sheep.


----------



## bigshawn

Nice...............


----------



## Beekissed

A beautiful breed!


----------



## wava1vaughn

Hi from Ga. A couple more pics.












When I get a chance I'll post some more recent pics. with our newest lamb 1 week old.


----------



## EllieMay

Love the pics!

Thank you for sharing!!


----------



## boothcreek

wava1vaughn said:
			
		

> Hi from Ga. A couple more pics.
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/4946_splash_002.jpg
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/4946_splash_001.jpg
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/4946_splash_003.jpg
> When I get a chance I'll post some more recent pics. with our newest lamb 1 week old.


Texas barbados or American Black bellies? Sometimes texas ones can look like american thats why I ask. Barbados black bellies wouldn't have horns....

Your ram has nice clean facial markings, making me think American BB? How old is he in the pic, by the horns I am guessing around the 8-10 month mark? If so he will have an AWESOME Rack later!


----------



## carolinagirl

boothcreek said:
			
		

> wava1vaughn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi from Ga. A couple more pics.
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/4946_splash_002.jpg
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/4946_splash_001.jpg
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/4946_splash_003.jpg
> When I get a chance I'll post some more recent pics. with our newest lamb 1 week old.
> 
> 
> 
> Texas barbados or American Black bellies? Sometimes texas ones can look like american thats why I ask. Barbados black bellies wouldn't have horns....
> 
> Your ram has nice clean facial markings, making me think American BB? How old is he in the pic, by the horns I am guessing around the 8-10 month mark? If so he will have an AWESOME Rack later!
Click to expand...

They look like American Blackbelly to me.  The Texas Barbado (note...no "s" on the end of that name...the "s" only goes on the Barbados blackbelly) has horns too, but often has a lighter underbelly.  Those sheep look like they have a black belly.  At any rate, they are nice looking.


----------



## wava1vaughn

Hi from Ga. I have to plead guilty. I don't know American from Texan. They just look good. Here are a few pics. from this morning.
































 The Baby lamb is about a week old the ram is almost a year old. I baby them to the point that they almost don't do their job of foraging. They get grain twice a day and peanut hay. They won't touch the grass but love the brush. I used them to replace my goats last year.


----------



## Sheepdog

We have 3 breeds... Dorper, Katahdin, St Croix. All fullblood ewes and a fullblood Dorper ram.

We keep sheep because I am Australian and it is a staple part of our diet in Australian and I refuse to pay the exhorbitant prices of lamb here in the USA (don't mind getting high prices for our lambs.... but to buy it from the grocery store it is expensive and not readily available in this part of the US.

So we raise hair sheep because we don't have to deal with shearing.

For meat.

To use to train our working dogs.

To sell the katahdin X dorper and the St Croix X dorper at market and to sell off our registered fullblood lambs as breeding stock.

We had suffolk in Australia, but went into dorper because of the weight gain, hardiness, self shedding (though one has to know bloodlines etc for shedding ease in dorpers), and the fact that they are not as selective grazers as the wool sheep. I still love the wool breeds, because that was what we were accustomed to, but the hair sheep that we have now are easy compared to the wool breed meat sheep we have had in the past.


----------



## wava1vaughn

Hi from Ga.  I'm going to look at some katahdin on the 23rd. but can't decide if I want to mix my herd. My friends are telling me to keep my herd pure.


----------



## Sheepdog

wava1vaughn said:
			
		

> Hi from Ga.  I'm going to look at some katahdin on the 23rd. but can't decide if I want to mix my herd. My friends are telling me to keep my herd pure.


That is entirely up to you. I personally like a pure herd, well full bloods actually, but I am big on pedigrees, line breeding etc. In saying that we still put a dorper ram over our Katahdins and St Croix ewes. I have toyed with the idea of getting a full blood Katahdin ram and a full blood St Croix ram, but it is just extra messing around having to divide the breeds of sheep into different pastures etc. I love the St Croix and Katahin ewes but I personally don't like the big mane that the rams get, so another reason I prefer the Dorper... then again we have had some Dorper that don't shed their wool all that well too, so we looked again into bloodlines and tried to get the sheep that are better for shedding their wool. Don't have any trouble with the Katahdins or St Croix with shedding though, they have more hair and it falls out very easily in most cases. So it really depends on what you prefer. You could always get yourself a good Dorper ram and try him over your Katahdins.... but buy a decent ram to start with. If you like what you see then great, if not, sell him and buy a Katahdin ram. 

If you are wanting to build up your herd of Katahdins, you could  get yourself a good quality Katahdin ram and then keep all of your ewe lambs that you produce.....and then if you wanted to experiment with a cross such as a dorper or whatever breed you decide you could get another ram (Dorper or whatever breed you decide) and breed him to the Katahdin ewe lambs that you keep (when they are old enough obviously) and yet still breed the Katahdin ram back to the original Katahdin ewes. If you didn't like what you produced with the crosses, sell off your crosses and your Katahdin ram and buy another Katahdin ram that you can then use to breed your original ewes as well as their daughters that you keep. Many ways you can go with this. And its a lot of fun experimenting and waiting to see what the lambs turn out like. Just always try to buy good quality to begin with... you might pay a little more for them, but they are worth it in the long run and if you get a good ram, you won't have any trouble re-selling him or even swapping him with someone who is ready to swap out their ram. Good luck.


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## wava1vaughn

Hi from Ga.   Our main business is rare birds the sheep are just extra animals we have on the farm. The Barbados are so flighty but we are starting to make ground on getting them used to us. In the past my wife has been attacked by our big male goats so we end up getting rid of them. Luckily Ramsey our beautiful Ram is turning into a big baby wanting to be petted. This new trait is probably going to keep him out of the freezer. I really would like to have a whole herd of friendly sheep. Is this to much to expect?


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## Sheepdog

wava1vaughn said:
			
		

> Hi from Ga.   Our main business is rare birds the sheep are just extra animals we have on the farm. The Barbados are so flighty but we are starting to make ground on getting them used to us. In the past my wife has been attacked by our big male goats so we end up getting rid of them. Luckily Ramsey our beautiful Ram is turning into a big baby wanting to be petted. This new trait is probably going to keep him out of the freezer. I really would like to have a whole herd of friendly sheep. Is this to much to expect?


Yes the Barbado can be flighty compared with other breeds, but personally I think if you cull heavily and only keep your quiet sheep, sell off or eat any overly flighty sheep, then I don't think it is too much to expect to have a whole herd of friendly sheep. 

You can have the quietest breed of sheep or cattle and have one or two that are a little crazy and they upset the whole flock/herd. Any cow that is a fence climber, or one that when we gather the cattle... we have about 300 head but in Australia we had 2500 head.... and anything that sees us or the dogs and runs, head up and tail up in the air... I give it a couple of chances and then..... it's gone  I will not tolerate any animal which is half wild.... it upsets everything, including me LOL.... makes for extra work and stirs up the rest of the animals. 

Obviously you need to give the Barbado a little more slack as they are naturally a "wilder" breed..... I bet they would survive in the wild a darn sight better than the dorpers 

I love the look of the sheep such as the Black Bellies, Painted Desert, Barbado, etc... we have a ranch that my fiance does a lot of hunting on and where we run our cattle (don't live there, we live on our other ranch which is where I keep my sheep and the rest is hay meadows).... so those type of sheep look appealing... but for me for the meat and for training working border collies, I prefer the quieter less flighty breeds. In a perfect world we would have some of these other breeds on the hunting ranch....with lovely big horns etc.... but it is hardly fenced appropriately for cattle.... the river runs straight through the middle of the ranch and washes away the fences every time it floods..... so we could never keep sheep there successfully... and the coyotes would have a feast.  

I think if you persevere and eat the wilder ones LOL... you should have a flock that is quiet and easy to handle. 

By the way, what sort of rare birds do you raise?


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## wava1vaughn

Hi from Ga.  We deal in rare breeds of chickens. If you click on my website you will see some of them. We are changing all the time.


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## carolinagirl

When I first got my Barbados Blackbelly sheep I wanted them to be tame.  I tried....really I did!  But I have since decided to let them be.  They are very close to wild animals and I appreciate them for what they are.  They don't want me to mess with them and really don't need it, so I just enjoy them from the other side of the fence.  When they start lambing, I will weigh and tag the new lambs but that will be it.

I do like my Katahdins and enjoy petting them.  But if I decided to get rid of one breed, I think I'd keep the Barbados and get rid of the katahdins.   the Katahdins are much more susceptible to internal parasites.  I have had to deworm them twice this past summer, and never had to do the Barbados. The Barbados have a much higher resistance to parasites.


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## Beekissed

For a pasture-raised hair sheep, the SC and BB being flightier is, IMO, a desirable trait.  The need to flock well and the flightiness to avoid predator attack is something I would not change.  If I had sheep out on large areas of pasture, the flightier and more independent breeds would be something I would stock.  

 Katahdins seem to be more docile and complacent, on the whole, than the other breeds and respond better to hand taming and backyard lawnmower type raising of sheep.  The Dorpers come in a close second on that.


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## carolinagirl

yep....in the pasture, these sheep are always together.  At night, they sleep in the middle of the field, all facing different directions.  I put them in my front pasture.  I am not worried about anyone catching and stealing one.  No one can get their hands on them.  I am going to build a paddock in the pasture so I can catch them when I need to.  The ram is very defensive of his girls.  If I walk one of my dogs past their pasture, he is always right there at the fence, stomping and snorting at the dogs.  I enjoy this wild behavior.  It's almost like having a herd of whitetail deer.  They are also much more active and playful than the katahdins.  They hop and jump and chase each other around (most are lambs, coming up on a year old).  My DIL has a good view of this pasture from her porch and says it's like having National Geographic right in her front yard.  

There was a time that I considered getting rid of these sheep because I wanted animals I could handle.  But they have really grown on me and now I adore them.  I can't pet them, but I do love having them around.  I have not eaten one yet but I understand the meat is delicious.


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## Beekissed

CG, I think that more wild behavior also contributes to their parasite resistance.  I think they more readily eat browse that the more domesticated breeds do not and some of those weeds/shrubs work as a natural dewormer and help to keep better rumen health.  Like you said, they are sort of like deer...and when was the last time you saw a deer die of intestinal parasites?  My family have been living and eating off the land/woods for over 35 years and we've yet to see a deer dead in the woods without it being trauma related.


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## carolinagirl

I think they just have a resistance to parasites....more than domestic sheep have.  During the summer, I ran the Katahdins and the BBs together in the same pasture.  There was just grass there....no browse.  The Katahdins needed deworming (pale eyelids) and the blackbellys never did. I may breed a couple of my katadhins to the black belly ram to see if their offspring are hardier than the katahdins.


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## Beekissed

That's interesting....it would be great to know what, exactly, creates a state of resistance to parasites...they are both mammals, both hosts to the same type of parasites...what physiological component is it that would create an environment that would discourage parasite growth/thrive in one mammal as opposed to another?  

I've done a lot of research on the matter and can never find any studies that explain why one animal can thrive with parasite loads and some cannot, some can shed parasite loads and some cannot and all the physical reasons for that.  Have you found anything at all in your studies or readings?

Maybe one of the answers lie within this thread?  Maybe different breeds of sheep have been conditioned to choose and eat different grasses within the same pasture situation and maybe those different grasses/weeds create a different environment for the parasites?  I know that preds in the wild will chew sawtooth grass when they have digestive problems, which scientists believe could be a discomfort caused by worm loads, and the sharp edged grasses, unable to digest/dissolve in a pred, actually cut and destroy the parasites in their intestines.  

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=15906

Maybe the different wilder breeds, down through the years, have passed on the habit of eating weeds/grasses that aren't normally consumed by ruminants in a more domestic breed.  Maybe those rougher grasses are just as indigestible to ruminants and perform the same action as they do to preds?  

Maybe this is also why free ranged chickens carry less parasites than do chickens confined to a run, though they try to convince backyard chicken owners that it is the exposure to pasture/grass that actually _causes_ more parasite exposure?

I'd sure like to know all these things....


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## carolinagirl

I have found no logical reason for it.  Perhaps it's just a hardiness thing that came from years and years of "survival of the fittest".  I have seen it with fish too.  I keep koi (ornamental pond fish).  The closer the variety is to the wild carp, the more resistance they have to parasites.  Parasites that will wipe out one variety of fish barely even affects certain other varieties.  It would be interesting to do lab work and see if they both breeds of sheep are carrying the same parasite load and just aren't affected....or if they even resist taking on the load from the start.


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## Beekissed

It would indeed!  I think your answer lies in what you just said....maybe they carry the same loads but their health is less affected.  Maybe they develop more red blood cells than do their counterparts, thus not evidencing the anemia that is usually indicative of parasite loads.  Maybe the mucosa in their bowels has a naturally more acidic mucus layer or even has a more fibrous nature that doesn't allow worms to thrive or attach well.  

It would be great to know...but as soon as science discovered it they'd find a way to mess it up, so it's probably just best they do not know, huh?


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## carolinagirl

maybe if I learn how to do fecals with my microscope, I'll do some studies later in the summer when the ewes are back together.  They are separated now for breeding.


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## Beekissed

Thought folks would enjoy this video about raising hair sheep, specifically Katahdins, in the southeast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRafrBl5hGY


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## boykin2010

The lady in that video is a good friend of mine.  I live about 10 minutes from her an buy all my breeding stock from
 Her. She really knows what she is doing and has excellent excellent sheep.  Very parasite resistant. This is her website www.houndriverfarm.com


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## Beekissed

Isn't that cool?  Small world!  I liked the looks of her sheep also and the fact that she is actually using the hair sheep for their trait qualities instead of trying to raise them exactly like the woolly breeds by throwing dewormer down their gobs instead of addressing the real problem.   That she is culling/breeding for parasite resistance makes her a woman after my own husbandry heart! 

The place I bought my hair sheep was from an older guy who had previously owned woollies.  He got the hair sheep because he was attracted to their traits of shedding, parasite resistance, conditioning well on grass, mothering, lambing, etc.  Then, what did he do?  Started treating them like wool breeds...feeding a lot of grain, dosing them with meds, jugging them for lambing and providing too much assistance, etc. 

He soon found out that as soon as he did this, the hair breeds started performing just like his woollies(illness, poor lambing, poor health, increased parasites, etc.) and he hadn't gotten very far in the exchange of breeds.  

He is slowly making the transition back to a grass-based, less chemical interference based operation but he still isn't managing them well or breeding for their good traits of parasite resistance and lambing without too much interference.


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## Doug Stone

I got my first sheep in June I got Painted Desert. One ram and one Ewe going to get two more Ewes this week.


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## mikiz

They're beautiful Doug, I'm so jealous, we don't have those in Australia


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## Doug Stone

Thank You. They are certainly unique, and they are not very friendly, they are very skiddish. But they have eaten out of my hand. Takes time I guess


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## IndigoFoxFarm

Doug Stone said:


> I got my first sheep in June I got Painted Desert. One ram and one Ewe going to get two more Ewes this week.



Beautiful pair, Doug. Thanks for sharing. 

I don't have any sheep yet, but will be getting some hair sheep next year.  I'm currently looking into Dorper crosses and Painted Desert sheep, as there is a breeder who has both flocks available. I like color, but the Dorper-x being a bit more mellow would be good for starting out. lol.


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## n8ivetxn

I have a flock of about 30, registered, Barbados Blackbelly hair sheep... 

I chose them based on several things: they are very rare and need help building their numbers, their beautiful appearance (- like small deer with a black belly), resistance to parasites and other common sheep problems. And, like other hair breeds, they are low maintenance. They're very good for controlling the dense brush and undergrowth we have in western Washington..... 

Bush Creek Farm primarily raises BB for seed stock (starter flocks), but we also have freezer lamb available. 

We've had BB sheep for 3 years, more or less, before that I raised miniature polled Hereford cattle.

Our results have been very positive and we've worked hard to establish and grow our local markets - which seems to be good, we always sell all our lambs! Mostly as starter flocks.

The Barbados Blackbelly is the smallest of the hair sheep breeds and they're slow growing, which isn't very desirable in commercial circles, but we feel like they have great traits that are worth saving for the future. If they become extinct in the US, we won't be able to import more.


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## n8ivetxn

I see a few people mentioned the disposition and temperament of the blackbelly breeds.... well, mine are not flighty at all! As a matter of fact, if I sit in a chair, they'll practically crawl in my lap. They push and shove each other around, trying to get closer to me.... it's quite funny  Even my rams like a good scratch on the chest or between the shoulders.... I have 5 week old twin ewes, they jump on me like dogs when I go out to feed, LOL.... as bad as bottle babies


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## Jeanette56

Beekissed said:


> Do any of you have difficulty finding any publications that feature care and husbandry of hair breeds?


We have a subscription to Sheep! magazine and while it discusses all breeds of sheep they have had some helpful hair sheep articles.


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## soarwitheagles

We presently have 10 pregnant American Blackbelly ewes ready to drop with one American Blackbelly ram that keeps the ewes producing.  We also picked up what I think are two Dorper lambs...whatever they are, they are growing 2-3 times faster than the American Blackbelly sheep, putting on pound after pound after pound.  I'll do my best to take some pics and post them.

I am beginning to lean more toward the idea of populating with more Dorpers.  It appears both the American Blackbelly and the Dorpers tend to browse and graze, and that is what we are interested in now.  We are hoping to make and keep the back forest nice and clean...and hopefully browsing will get the job done...


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## n8ivetxn

Soarwitheagles - I can see all the eyes back there in the dark!


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## soarwitheagles

n8ivetxn said:


> Soarwitheagles - I can see all the eyes back there in the dark!



n8ivetxn,

Yes, that is me, my wife, and children...don't tell anyone, but we are vampires...


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## frustratedearthmother




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## soarwitheagles

frustratedearthmother said:


>



Ok, I was just joking.  Those really are our American Blackbelly Sheep!

On the other hand, *can anyone confirm the little white sheep with the black/dark brown heads are Dorpers?*


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## Baymule

soarwitheagles said:


> Ok, I was just joking.  Those really are our American Blackbelly Sheep!
> 
> On the other hand, *can anyone confirm the little white sheep with the black/dark brown heads are Dorpers?*


Yup. You have Dorpers. I have 4 ewes that are Dorper crossed with Katahdin and they are all splotchy, the colors go crazy when they are cross bred. I want a good Dorper ram for them. They were bred to a Katahdin ram and so far I have 4 lambs.


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## frustratedearthmother

I had a sheep one time that looked just like that.  They called her a Dorper - I called her delicious!


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## soarwitheagles

Baymule said:


> Yup. You have Dorpers. I have 4 ewes that are Dorper crossed with Katahdin and they are all splotchy, the colors go crazy when they are cross bred. I want a good Dorper ram for them. They were bred to a Katahdin ram and so far I have 4 lambs.



Is it possible our Dorpers are cross bred or do they appear full Dorpers?  Special note: I purchased these two Dorper lambs at a local auction for only $65 each.  They eat like 10 times more than the American Blackbelly's and grow much faster too.  I was thinking maybe breed them if they are full bred Dorpers...



frustratedearthmother said:


> I had a sheep one time that looked just like that.  They called her a Dorper - I called her delicious!



LOL!  Well, it sounds as if you raised your Dorper solely for the purpose of meat?


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## n8ivetxn

I'm not an expert on Dorpers, but they look crossbred - I say that because of the mottled/broken black hood. I think the purebreds have a solid black hood. Maybe ;-)

Other than that one thing, I'm not sure. Baymule seems to agree with that reasoning... That's a good price, $65 each.


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## Baymule

I believe you might have Dorpers, not crossbreds. Their head colors can get a little off, the show quality are white with black heads. There are also white Dorpers, without the black heads. You might want to do some study on the Dorpers @soarwitheagles as they are a premier meat breed. They can thrive on grass and browse. I give about a cup of feed a day to my 4 ewes and free choice hay. I give them the feed because it is so much fun to hear them calling for me, wanting their treat.

A good Dorper has a butt on them like a ham on a hog. Gotta see it to believe it. While mine are half Dorper and half Katahdin, and their lamb are 3/4 Katahdin, I will be buying a pure bred, if not registered Dorper, ram. I studied goats and sheep, read forums, (this one is the best) and finally settled on sheep. Then I studied sheep breeds. I wanted to help save a heritage breed, but none of them really suited what I wanted to do. I chose Dorpers, it was a close one with Katahdins, because they are very meaty and can thrive on pasture and browse. Katahdins can too, but those Dorper butts!!! 

As far as heritage breeds go, I would choose Cotswold. Just a few for the fun of all those lovely long locks of soft wool. Then i would have to learn to shear, then I would have to learn how to clean and spin the wool. Then I would have to learn how to knit, crochet....... you see where this is going, don't you? 

Count your lucky stars, you got a great deal on the Dorpers and if ewes, yes I would definitely keep them and breed them.


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## Baymule

Here are a couple of my splotchy girls and their lambs.
This is Miranda Lambert.





This is Sheepalicious.





and this is Sheepalicious ewe lamb.






I will keep the ewe lambs and wether the rams, to be sold as finished lambs for meat.


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## soarwitheagles

Baymule said:


> I believe you might have Dorpers, not crossbreds. Their head colors can get a little off, the show quality are white with black heads. There are also white Dorpers, without the black heads. You might want to do some study on the Dorpers @soarwitheagles as they are a premier meat breed. They can thrive on grass and browse. I give about a cup of feed a day to my 4 ewes and free choice hay. I give them the feed because it is so much fun to hear them calling for me, wanting their treat.
> 
> A good Dorper has a butt on them like a ham on a hog. Gotta see it to believe it. While mine are half Dorper and half Katahdin, and their lamb are 3/4 Katahdin, I will be buying a pure bred, if not registered Dorper, ram. I studied goats and sheep, read forums, (this one is the best) and finally settled on sheep. Then I studied sheep breeds. I wanted to help save a heritage breed, but none of them really suited what I wanted to do. I chose Dorpers, it was a close one with Katahdins, because they are very meaty and can thrive on pasture and browse. Katahdins can too, but those Dorper butts!!!
> 
> As far as heritage breeds go, I would choose Cotswold. Just a few for the fun of all those lovely long locks of soft wool. Then i would have to learn to shear, then I would have to learn how to clean and spin the wool. Then I would have to learn how to knit, crochet....... you see where this is going, don't you?
> 
> Count your lucky stars, you got a great deal on the Dorpers and if ewes, yes I would definitely keep them and breed them.





Baymule said:


> Here are a couple of my splotchy girls and their lambs.
> This is Miranda Lambert.
> View attachment 13462
> 
> This is Sheepalicious.
> 
> View attachment 13463
> 
> and this is Sheepalicious ewe lamb.
> 
> View attachment 13464
> 
> 
> I will keep the ewe lambs and wether the rams, to be sold as finished lambs for meat.



Baymule,,

Thank you for sharing!  Beautiful sheep you have there.  Are your sheep in the picture the half Dorper and half Katahdin?  That is amazing how the colors vary so much and I was wondering how that can happen.

I really like our American Blackbelly sheep, but when I saw how fast the Dorper's are growing, I began to think maybe we could have two flocks...one of the Dorpers, one of the American Blackbelly sheep.  I am intrigued that each of these breeds can browse and graze.  We were hoping to find sheep that would "mow the lawns" [fields] and clean up our back eucalyptus forest and provide some lamb roast every so often.  It appears as if these two breeds may be able to get the job done.

I hear you on the big butts on the Dorpers.

I think we will wait until these Dorpers become 9 months old, then ask a local rancher to if we can "borrow" one of his Dorper rams to get the ball rolling...

I found excellent information and a long, long list of Dorper breeders at this website:

http://www.dorper.org/find.html

Discovered we we have several Dorper breeders within a couple of miles of our location!

That is good news!

Good luck on your sheep Baymule!

Soar


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## Baymule

Good luck with your sheep too. These 4 ewes are my first, so I have a learning curve.


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## thqueensblessing

We have Dorpers and Katahdins.  Our ewes are commercial right now and our rams are registered. We're working our way up to quality registered stock.


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## soarwitheagles

Beautiful sheep there queensblessing!  And welcome to BYH!

Good luck on your endeavor to raise quality registered stock.  Wish you success!

Soar


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