# Waiting for Results ~ UPDATE:  BACK AND NOT GOOD.  HELP!



## PJisaMom (Sep 23, 2010)

So... yeah.

My 3 Alpines are all roughly 4 months old.  Got them from a backyard herder that had two goats (all they were allowed per their ordinance);  Two wethers and a doe (which we hadn't planned on getting because the *whole* point of getting goats was to just have some pets and call it good... but  while we were there, the lady talked to my husband about the milk, had him taste it, sold him some soap.... you know how it goes... we got the little doe, too ~ a half sister to the boys).  When we bought them, the people told us the mothers had been tested last fall ~ but for what, I wasn't educated enough at the time to remember what they said, and they haven't answered my emails lately.

The people had had goats for a few years, but this was their first breeding.  They kept my doe's sister and sold the boys' mother (a huge milker), leaving them with two goats once again.  

My goats are Smith, Wesson, and Browning.  

Of course, the doe is smaller and my youngest daughter just LOVES her.  

However... I noticed a lump on "Brownie" the other day, front her shoulder at the base of her neck.  _I started getting that freaking out feeling_... It's not big... large pea, oblong, a bit deeper, feels "encapsulated".  I immediately conclude she must have CL.  _I have a tendency to jump to worst-case-scenario... a fair bit of the time anyway.  _

It's not growing, it's not hairless, she's fine... the boys have nothing weird growing on them.  I don't see a point of entry for a splinter or anything else... they were roughhousing on an overturned half barrel the other day; been sort of hoping she just hit it weird and left a lump.  

Called the vet out and he drew samples yesterday.  (Which was actually very cool to watch from where I was sitting... with my face about 6 inches from the needle!)  The goaties didn't even cry, shocking the vet.  Of course, they were all trying to be in contact with me the entire time he was here... they love me!

The vet said the lymph node seemed suspect, but no way to know unless we tested.  And by the way, it's like $30 for EACH test (I said let's run the gamut) to send it to UC Davis... um, sit down a minute doc... let me show you WADDL.  Gave him what he needed to get the samples out yesterday (WADDL's website says they run CL on Wed/Thurs, so hoping it to get it there on time... though felt it was fairly unlikely to do so.)

At any rate, I do have a point to this story... I don't like to ask questions, but have you ever tried to search for just "CL" here?  It won't find anything because it's not a long enough search string (I think it has to have three letters).  So... just trying to figure out what I'm going to do when it comes back positive.  

Yep, I said when.  _I love being wrong.  _

Obviously, if she has CL, we can't breed her, we can't milk her, and we can't get more goats until such time as she is gone.  

If she has it and by proxy her brothers have it, I feel a responsibility to get rid of them (read into that what you will), thus *destroying* my children (they had to get rid of a dog 10 months ago because of dad's allergies, and that's been *ROUGH*) and generally just getting ticked off that I "allowed" this to happen. 

Now, on the other hand... I can always get more goats.  I love THESE goats, but I have also read where transmission is possible to humans.  My youngest daughter has severe medical issues stemming from but not limited to Cystic Fibrosis.  I would NEVER endanger her health by keeping goats around that could affect her with something else she CERTAINLY doesn't need.  I don't know how likely or possible this transmission is, but she always does the unexpected.  

Remember somewhere in there mid-novel where I promised a point to the story?  Well... here's my questions:

Is almost four months a bit young for a CL outbreak?

IF she has it, but has never burst an abscess here, will my barn still be considered contaminated?  

IF she has it, but her brothers do not, would you keep them (they've all been exposed to the same exact things ~ milk, mothers, etc)?

I guess there's probably more questions in there, so address what you please, if you would.  

I really need this to be negative.  It's been a helluva year.  

????


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## ksalvagno (Sep 23, 2010)

I would wait for the results since you have pulled blood to test them.

You have to do what is best for your family. If they come back positive for CL, then I would move them on and not take the chance. Quite frankly, I have found that anything goes with livestock and even if it isn't usual for a 4 month old to have CL, nothing says that they can't. 

I'm not sure about the contamination thing. I would probably clean the barn thoroughly and probably even clorox the whole thing.

I sure hope the tests come back negative for you. Good luck.


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## helmstead (Sep 23, 2010)

On necropsy, they can tell if an animal has _internal_ CL...in which case YES your barn could be contaminated...

All of this is speculation, so lets see how the tests come back.


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## PJisaMom (Oct 5, 2010)

All three are positive for CAE; She is positive for CL.  

Way to go, me!  Yay!  Way to royally mess up buying your first goats and absolutely devastating your children in the process!

*Pause* for my own personal pity party.  

Waiting for the vet to call me to "talk" to me.  

Why is she positive for CL and her brothers aren't?  (They all drank the same raw milk... did I read that it can be transmitted, even to humans, through milk?  Yes, I know for CAE, but CL?)

Can the boys develop the CL later? 

Can the boys transmit the CAE to other goats, if I should decide to get some "replacement" goats?  

I realize she needs to go, but how much danger am I exposing any new goats to if I keep the boys (until they die their horrible death in a short few years or less)?

Yes, I'm angry.  At myself... and the damn goats.  And the fact that my newbie status has left my family in a quandary due to another one of my brilliant ideas... 

Seriously... 

If you can answer any of the serious questions above (if you can find them in the snarkiness)  with any helpful or "I might consider doing this...." advice, I'd surely appreciate it.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 5, 2010)

Roll Farm had a CL problem. She would be the best to answer the CL questions. CAE is manageable. I don't have those diseases here so I can't answer your questions well. But I'm sorry about the results.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 5, 2010)

Ok...first of all, this really sucks.  I *know* how much effort you've put toward caring for and learning about these little critters.  If you hadn't cared enough to do your homework, you'd likely have been like 98% of the rest of the goat-owning world and gone "Hmmm...that one's got a little bump.  _Oh well._"

Funny how caring a whole lot so often leads to incalculable anguish, huh?  One of life's great ironies...  :/

So...you've mentioned before that your particular situation dictates that you can have no 'zoonotically-diseased' critters on the place.  That much, anyone could understand.  Unfortunately, that means Brownie's gotta go -- but you already knew that.



The boys?...maybe not.  

Since they tested negative, and since Brownie's not yet ruptured an abscess, I would think you probably still have time to quarantine and/or get Brownie outta there and hit the two boys with Case-Bac.  According to everything I've read -- as well as what some of our members have personally and bravely related to us -- it's pretty daggone highly effective in preventing CL in goats.  And it's like $6.  So, yeah, you might be able to salvage your boys for about $6.

As for the CAE?...well, they're wethers.  And what I mean by that is, _who cares_?  By all accounts, CAE is not transmissable to humans, and instances of it being transmitted between *adult* goats are apparently pretty rare.  And it's not like they're going to be breeding and/or nursing anybody, soooo...  Basically, unless they're all hobbly, lame, and/or have big hot swollen knees, I wouldn't worry so much about the CAE.  Kind of a non-issue in pet wethers, IMHO.

So the gameplan I'd have in mind would be to quarantine Brownie and order at least one 20ml vial of Case-Bac from Jeffers _today_.  Some (me) would recommend 2 vials since you're technically supposed to pitch vials after they've been opened, whereas some say they're basically good till they're all gone and have expired.  Your choice.  Some (me) would bolster their argument by saying it's not worth risking an ineffective dose to save $6...but it's totally your call.

Either way, if you order now, it'll be in be on your doorstep by Friday.  Vax the boys right then.  Watch out for Brownie's abscess to go bald as you try to find her a suitable home, if possible.  Could be that she ends up at the sale barn, or that she's euthanized, but if the boys get vaxed and you can watch that lump to be SURE it doesn't pop on its own, I would think you've got some time to at least _try_ to work out a suitable solution for her.

Or, euthanize her.  

And I'm not saying that to be flippant, either -- I say that because it's perfectly logical, and a very acceptable resolution to the problem given your unique circumstances.  Nobody would judge you.  I'm arguably the most judgemental ahole on this board and I'm saying that if you need to euth the doeling, then by all means, euth the doeling.

Sucks, yes, but...well, you know none of us could even begin to know **the half** of how much more things could potentially suck if you didn't euth the doe and came to regret it.  

Ugh..

I really, really hate this for ya.


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## ()relics (Oct 5, 2010)

I would say, because your herd is in an early foundation(?) stage, meaning you only have a few goats that you intend to build from, I would think it best to remove all the goats.  The boys are surely positive having been exposed at the same level as the doeling, but they just haven't shown anything as of yet, that you have seen anyway.  I would not take the chance by keeping them and then adding new goats to your herd, only to find later that they are now showing positive signs and potentially infecting your "new" herd...It Just Wouldn't Be Worth The Risk.  Quite possibly your barn and pasture are already contaminated...Clean House...JMO...Sorry to hear you have been taken advantage of by yet another "responsible" breeder.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 5, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> I would say, because your herd is in an early foundation(?) stage, meaning you only have a few goats that you intend to build from, I would think it best to remove all the goats.


Best for the future goat herd, maybe...but perhaps not so much so for her family.

Remember -- the doeling was something of an afterthought.  They had intended on pet wethers to begin with.



> The boys are surely positive having been exposed at the same level as the doeling, but they just haven't shown anything as of yet, that you have seen anyway.


"Surely positive," though their tests came back negative?  Doesn't make sense..  Also, there's no way to know the boys were exposed at the same level as the doeling..  She's a _half_-sister, remember?  And the OP mentions the "mamas" being tested last year.  To me, the logical conclusion there is that the breeder ran two does to the same buck and the offspring were half-bro/sis...which means the sis was on a different set of teats from the boys.

Not to mention, we don't really know if the doeling's contagious yet..  It's possible that she's got internal abcesses on the lungs and that she's hacking up little CL bacteria...but you'd think they'd have tested positive right along with her if that were the case.

Personally, I think there's time to work with them.

That's me, though.. 



> I would not take the chance by keeping them and then adding new goats to your herd, only to find later that they are now showing positive signs and potentially infecting your "new" herd...It Just Wouldn't Be Worth The Risk.  Quite possibly your barn and pasture are already contaminated...Clean House...JMO...Sorry to hear you have been taken advantage of by yet another "responsible" breeder.


You're looking at this from the perspective of a serious goat breeder..  Makes sense -- that's what you are.  

But try looking at it from the perspective of a pet owner..  Would you necessarily recommend someone "cleaning house" and getting rid of all their dogs because one somehow managed to get...I dunno...parvo, or something like that?  

I wouldn't.

Jes' sayin...might be an easier pill to swallow for her human kids to go missing *one* goat instead of the whole herd.


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## ()relics (Oct 5, 2010)

PJisaMom said:
			
		

> All three are positive for CAE; She is positive for CL.
> Why is she positive for CL and her brothers aren't?  (They all drank the same raw milk... did I read that it can be transmitted, even to humans, through milk?  Yes, I know for CAE, but CL?)


seems to me they are either carriers or just haven't had time to show yet...unless the OP doesn't have the facts straight...and I would also say Case-Bac is throwing Good Money After Bad...No Matter what the situation seems...But that is just me...the stuff _May_ work but I think the jury is still out.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 5, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> seems to me they are either carriers or just haven't had time to show yet...


A "carrier," as I understand it, is when one *tests* positive yet remains asymptomatic.  The two boys tested negative and are asymptomatic.  That kinda rules out the possibility of being carriers, at least for the time being.

It's *possible* that they had low+ titres that just happened to have come in under the threshold for a definitive positive diagnosis...but I doubt it.  Even if that's the case, though, I just don't see much harm in at least giving them a chance at remaining negative unless/until it becomes clear that they're also infected -- which may never happen.



> unless the OP doesn't have the facts straight...


???

Not sure what you mean by that..  As I see it, to have said that they were exposed "at the same level" as the doeling despite the fact that they had different mamas indicates that maybe you got a little something...unstraight...about the situation.

The doe and wethers had different mamas.    



> and I would also say Case-Bac is throwing Good Money After Bad...No Matter what the situation seems...But that is just me...the stuff _May_ work but I think the jury is still out.


Some members here say it works pretty well, and I've read at least two different studies which have concluded it to be at least 80% effective in goats -- and that's against a *direct challange* with CL.  They vax and booster the goat, let it build up immunity, then willfully and proactively infect it.  Still able to achieve about 80% success..  My thinking is that, when translated to the real world where the challenge would be much more haphazard, the prevention rate would almost certainly be higher.

Oh, and the rate of success was nearly 100% for preventing *internal* abscesses.  Personally, I found that really interesting.  

Something else you have to consider is that the US is actually behind in terms of having an on-label vaccine for CL in goats.  They have 4-way clostridial + CL goat vaccines in Australia and New Zealand, the CL component of which are basically the same thing as the Caseous D/T or Case-Bac we can get here..  Not like it's uncharted territory or anything.. 


Granted, I'm not saying that the OP absolutely can, should, or has any responsibility to even *try* to save the boys..  All I'm saying is that I could understand wanting to try for the sake of her kids...her human kids, that is.  It may very well end up that she determines it's not worth the risk and gets rid of ALL the goats, and I'd *totally* understand that.

I'm just saying that if she doesn't want to condemn the whole lot of'em on a just-in-case basis after two of the three have actually *tested negative*, I'd understand that..  And it's not as if she's shooting to become a bigtime goat breeder who intends on building a big herd of high-$$$ show stock one day..  

This did, afterall, start out as a simple pet wether situation.  I'm envisioning a worst-case-scenario where all they really have to do is pare it back to what they actually set out to do in the beginning.

That's all.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 5, 2010)

So what did the vet say?


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## ()relics (Oct 5, 2010)

PJisaMom said:
			
		

> They all drank the same raw milk...


1 more time...the _SAME_ raw milk...that would suggest the milk came from the same place?  In all reality, anyone even the lab or your vet, will tell you that you shouldn't base your decision on just 1 test result...A kid under 6 months is a prime candidate for a false negative, or on the bright side a false positive.  Lest we not forget the CAE factor on top of the CL potential...Sure you can shoot them up and _Hope_ for the best or...They can run away from home some night....jmo


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## cmjust0 (Oct 5, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> PJisaMom said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, really?  _Really?_  Yeah, well, guess what pal?!?!...

I totally missed that part..  Twice.


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## poorboys (Oct 5, 2010)

YourLinkGoesHere about cl in herd, If you do have one with it, what does it do to humans? how do they contract it?? I had a buck with a shot bump and thought it was cl, he was 4months old, It turned out not to be cl, but we had already given him a formalin 10% shot in the bump. stupid yes, friends advice? should'nt have done it,!!! He is now 8 months old, weights over 100 lbs, and tall. very vibrant and beautiful buck, shot bump still there, we petrifyed  it!!!!!! I will always regret that decision, because I have an outstanding buck that will always have a bump behind his top- shoulder. My friend raised bore goats and said that's what the do to theirs, I'm sorry I trusted her with this, but what is done is done, we learn from making risks  and mistakes. also changing my cdt shot, away from corvexin 8, it always leaves a bump and from now on I'm also going to keep a chart of where each animal receives a shot.I keep good records, but I was'nt doing that.  just thinking,   Patty


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## PJisaMom (Oct 5, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> So what did the vet say?


Vet said that these diagnoses are not compatible with a breeding operation (duh).  But... if I were to just have pets, they'd make wonderful animals.  

Yep.  He's right.  Except for that part about CL being contagious to humans... though if I am understanding it correctly, it's fairly difficult to "catch" CL from a goat unless you're drinking its raw milk.  

As for the SAME RAW MILK question... both moms were being milked.  I do not know if the boys were fed only milk from their mom, or if she mixed milk (boys vs. girls were on a staggered schedule).  When I brought them home, I got ONE gallon of milk (likely from the boys' mom... she was a huge milker) to wean them from... 

Vet also gave me the rundown on the CAE testing stats of 99.6% accuracy... that of 1000 tests, 4 could be wrong.  Uh, yeah, doc.  Got three wrong ones here.... NOT!

I am doing my best to hold my head on straight and keep my eye on the end goal... which obviously seems to change depending on the circumstances.  Do I want pets, or do I want to have babies and milk?  

Heck... I don't want ANY OF THIS!!!!!

Is CL transmissible by birth?  And that's how she got it and the boys didn't... for now?


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## ()relics (Oct 5, 2010)

CL is transferred to the kid through the milk from an infected doe.  If a kid is bottle raised it can be raised CL negative...Any milk from the doe has the potential to infect the kid...If the kids were fed from a common source they all have been exposed but the wethers have not yet shown any symptoms...JMO.


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## Roll farms (Oct 6, 2010)

Horsepucky.  

I've lived with and dealt w/ CL for 8 years now.  I've probably, by reason of having to deal with it...researched CL more than I have any other goat-related ailment.

I think this is one of the best articles I found in my research...

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/cl4.shtml

It's written by a vet, and it's not full of fear-mongering and witch doctor cures.  (Poorboys, don't feel bad about the formulin, a lot of folks have tried that....it was the 'common treatment' a while back.)

I guess, theoretically, if someone had CL pus / bacteria on their hand and touched the udder, or the doe laid in the bacteria and then the kids nursed, or had an extremely rare udder abscess....it *could* be transmitted that way...but....it's not the common transmission route.

Humans can catch it the same way...by contact, via a wound, w/ the pus.
I wear gloves when I lance an abscess, absolutely soak everything w/ iodine, and keep the does seperate until they've healed over.

I milk my CL positive does....and their milk has been drank by my family for years, sometimes unpastuerized....we aren't CL positive yet.

CL is transmitted usually by a cut in the skin touching the infection / pus, or goats ingesting expectorated pus (via lung abscesses) when eating....

I keep my 3 old CL does away from everyone else.  Our bucks are clean and the positive does never have 'dates' with them when they have a lump, much less an open CL abscess (or a cough that *might* indicate a lung abscess...which in my experience has been really rare.)

All our kids are caught at birth / raised in a seperate barn.

Vaccinating after exposure may or may not work...if the goat 'caught' it, the vaccine will not cure / prevent lumps...the vaccine won't have enough time to create an immune response.  

Exposure isn't a guarantee they'll 'catch' CL, they have to have the bacteria enter their bodies in some way....again, usually through a cut.

It's possible the doe's dam had a leaky lump when the kid was born and the bacteria got in through her navel or a disbudding spot or maybe she cut her leg or.....who knows where she may have picked it up. 
Usually the incubation time from exposure is 3-6 mos...so I'd say she was exposed pretty soon after birth.

Frankly, If all 3 kids were positive for CL, I'd be surprised...

Brief history of our CL saga:  All of my does (16 or so at the time) were exposed to the original carrier doe we 'caught' it from...
We caught it from a Boer doe who came w/ an Ohio BOAH vet inspection certificate stating she was from a CL clean herd.  (HAHAHAHHA)
and only 5 'caught' it.  I had one lumpy goat...and then w/in a few mos, there were 6 total.

We paid a lot of money for a vaccine made from 'our' strain that did NOTHING to slow /stop the spread.  Soon (within a year, despite vaccinating) we had 10 positive goats.

I made the choice not to cull them b/c some of the originals were goats I'd had a while / started with, and loved dearly....we now use the Case-Bac vaccine and it works a lot better than our 'strain specific' fancy vaccine ever did.

NO new cases in 2010...one in 2009.

We're down to 3 CL positive does...all 3 are special to us....so will be here until the bitter end...but if I had it to do over, I would have culled the positive does and been done w/ it.  
That is the 'practical farmer' in me of today talking, not the sentimental sap I was 8 years ago.

All of you have seen pics of my goats...often...can you pick out the 3 positive does?  I might, and I'm very serious, see 2-3 lumps per year.  It's not like they're standing around covered w/ abscesses 365 days a year.

(And I've learned to stop bothering vaccinating the known positives...that's the surest way to get a lump to pop up, IMHO)

The other CL+ does have either died off (unrelated causes) or been sold to breeders who DON'T CARE ABOUT CL BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAVE IT.  I advertised "4 CL positive does" on Craigslist and they sold in no time...it's a LOT more common (especially in Boers) than most will admit to.

As far as CAE.....We test for it....I have 3 CAE positive does.  One is 8, one is 7, and one is 3...NONE are symptomatic.

All produce kids who test CAE negative (again, remember, we catch / bottle raise the kids on pastuerized milk / heat treated colostrum ONLY.)

Testing positive for CAE isn't necessarily a death sentence.  It's sort of like how a healthy person can live a long time w/ HIV....only when it progresses to AIDS and challenges their immune system is it a problem.  Not all goats will have symptoms...some will show symptoms earlier...some never.  

CAE is the darndest thing I've ever encountered....there's no predicting it or explaining how formerly negative does 'spontaneously' become positive...it happens a lot.  
One of our CAE+ does is out of a negative doe....we also have 2 of her sisters and a daughter who all tested negative. 
Another CAE+ doe (unrelated to the above group) is out of a dam who's tested negative twice.

I won't offer advice on what you should do, because each person has to do what works for them, both financially and emotionally.  But I will tell you some things to consider.....

IF the doeling hasn't had an abscess bust open on your place, and isn't coughing pus all over, there is a fair chance the boys won't get a lump if she's removed before her lump busts / is lanced and they get exposed.

BUT....There's also a chance that they already 'caught it' at their former home and just haven't gotten a lump yet, that long incubation can give a false sense of security.

AND....CAE + tests doesn't necessarily condemn them to a long, early, painful death....but....we have seen 1 goat w/ arthritic symptoms and she went from "ok" to walking on her knees in a few weeks...it wasn't pretty and she did have to be put down.  

The diseases are different, transmitted differently, and each goat's reaction is different...what happened here to us / ours may not be how it goes at your farm....

I really, truly feel for you....I've been where you are.  

Feel free to ask me any specific questions you may have, but keep in mind that there are no absolutes w/ either disease.


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## jodief100 (Oct 6, 2010)

I think you need to be approach this depending on your goals.  

If they are to be pets, I wouldnt worry about either the CL or CAE.  Separate any with a lump into an area where they NEVER go unless they have a lump.  Lance the lump when it is ready to pop, cover with iodine and return the separated goat as soon as she heals.  CAE is a degenerative disease, when they are to the point when they are no longer enjoying life because of pain, then put them down.  Until then  enjoy them!  It could be years.  

If you just want to freshen her once a year for milk and sell the babies into the slaughter chain then keep her.  Be honest with your buyers about the CL status. In this case you may consider buying a young buck to service her and then sell him into the slaughter chain once she is bred so you dont risk exposing someone elses buck. 

If you want to start a commercial operation, then you will have to make the tough decision about what to do with your doe.  I would follow Roll Farms lead. 

The boys with CAE I wouldnt do anything at all.  Get some Cas-Bac and vaccinate.  If you want more pets, vaccinate them as well.

All this is just me- you need to decide for yourself what is best for you and your family.

Roll Farms may know for certain but I *Think* CL can give humans a skin infection.  I do not believe it manifests as the degenerative disease it is in goats.  Double check me on that, I may be remembering wrong.


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## PJisaMom (Oct 6, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Vaccinating after exposure may or may not work...if the goat 'caught' it, the vaccine will not cure / prevent lumps...the vaccine won't have enough time to create an immune response.
> 
> Exposure isn't a guarantee they'll 'catch' CL, they have to have the bacteria enter their bodies in some way....again, usually through a cut.
> 
> ...


So... they could be incubating, but not test positive?





			
				Roll farms said:
			
		

> I made the choice not to cull them b/c some of the originals were goats I'd had a while / started with, and loved dearly....we now use the Case-Bac vaccine and it works a lot better than our 'strain specific' fancy vaccine ever did.


But once they've had the Case-Bac, they will always test positive for CL?  Just no lumps?




			
				Roll farms said:
			
		

> We're down to 3 CL positive does...all 3 are special to us....so will be here until the bitter end...but if I had it to do over, I would have culled the positive does and been done w/ it.
> That is the 'practical farmer' in me of today talking, not the sentimental sap I was 8 years ago.
> (And I've learned to stop bothering vaccinating the known positives...that's the surest way to get a lump to pop up, IMHO)


I was trying to keep my big girl practical viewpoint on all this, but pretty much lost it when I had to relay the whole story to dh.  He had no idea I was concerned/had testing done, etc.  I have been preparing myself for this for two weeks... so I am 'okay'... just need to make some quick and precise decisions.  I HAVE to let her go... risking the human kid's fragile health cannot be worth it.  So... would you say that if I did give them the Case-Bac, it would sort of be a test to see if a lump pops up?




			
				Roll farms said:
			
		

> As far as CAE.....We test for it....I have 3 CAE positive does.  One is 8, one is 7, and one is 3...NONE are symptomatic.
> 
> CAE is the darndest thing I've ever encountered....there's no predicting it or explaining how formerly negative does 'spontaneously' become positive...it happens a lot.
> One of our CAE+ does is out of a negative doe....we also have 2 of her sisters and a daughter who all tested negative.
> Another CAE+ doe (unrelated to the above group) is out of a dam who's tested negative twice.


Not fun to live with such uncertainty!



			
				Roll farms said:
			
		

> IF the doeling hasn't had an abscess bust open on your place, and isn't coughing pus all over, there is a fair chance the boys won't get a lump if she's removed before her lump busts / is lanced and they get exposed.
> 
> BUT....There's also a chance that they already 'caught it' at their former home and just haven't gotten a lump yet, that long incubation can give a false sense of security.


Just so I'm clear... an incubating CL won't test positive?




			
				Roll farms said:
			
		

> AND....CAE + tests doesn't necessarily condemn them to a long, early, painful death....but....we have seen 1 goat w/ arthritic symptoms and she went from "ok" to walking on her knees in a few weeks...it wasn't pretty and she did have to be put down.
> 
> The diseases are different, transmitted differently, and each goat's reaction is different...what happened here to us / ours may not be how it goes at your farm....


I have no problem putting them down if they NEED it.  I just have a really hard time justifying it in my head at this point as I watch her play with her brothers and love life.  She's so VITAL.  Dh wants to take care of this himself ($); I am against it because 1) don't want it "spread" around here through a destructive euth 2) because she's not in DIRE straights, I'd hate for it to be that way. 



			
				Roll farms said:
			
		

> I really, truly feel for you....I've been where you are.
> 
> Feel free to ask me any specific questions you may have, but keep in mind that there are no absolutes w/ either disease.


Thanks, Roll.  I am really stuck.  

I have another question... the ONLY thing different about her vs the boys... SHE got a cd/t vaccine from the VET vs. the one I gave the boys.  Do you guys know of any vax's that have the Case-Bac in it, thus making her test positive?  I think she got Covexin?


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## Roll farms (Oct 6, 2010)

If they haven't been exposed long enough to have the antibodies showing up to test positive, as in the very early stages, then yes, I'd suppose they CAN test negative but still 'have it'....just no lumps yet.

Likely?  No....Possible....yes.

I've honestly never CL tested because I know some have it, and the rest are vaccinated so would (depending on how recently they've been vaccinated) test positive anyway.

Covexin hasn't got CL in it as far as I know, just Caseous D-T and Case-Bac.  So it shouldn't have caused a false positive.  Also, her having a lump AND testing positive....really would indicate, IMHO, that she's positive f'real.

Case bac can cause lumps in negative goats, at the injection site.  
SO...if you give it, keep track of where you gave it...if they get a lump there w/in a few weeks...that's not definite proof they have it, it COULD just be a shot reaction.

I guess the answer is yes and no...if they got a lump after Case Bac, at any spot other than the injection site, then I'd say they've got it....but a lump at the injection site could just be normal immune response.  At that point, testing is moot....

I'd be MORE tempted to cull her asap, and NOT vaccinate them, and give it 6 mos.  
If they get no lumps anywhere, then you can be pretty sure they're ok.  Retest in 3 mos even, if you'd like...by then they definitely should have incubated long enough to show positive if they are.
If they've got it, vaccinating won't cure it anyway.  
If they don't, you may get lumps that'll worry you...for nothing.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2010)

You are correct in not wanting to do anything on the farm with the female. Absolutely take her off the farm to cull her. Why take any chances?


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## Emmetts Dairy (Oct 6, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> You are correct in not wanting to do anything on the farm with the female. Absolutely take her off the farm to cull her. Why take any chances?


I agree,  take her off the farm to cull her. 

I am sorry you are going through this.  Its the hardest part of having goaties.   We have to make decisions that are never easy and are heartbreaking.  Its for the best, really. I know sometimes that dos'nt help..but it really is.  Im sure you know that...

I hope you find peace through this.  I'm sure its difficult for you.


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## babsbag (Oct 6, 2010)

Isn't it possible that someone may want the doe? If you are honest and say in the ad that she is CL positive maybe someone that already has CL goats will take her. It might make it a little less painful on your human kids.

I have a doe that came back with a titer of 1:32 so "positive". Another 1:8 , so technically negative. I have never had a lump on either of them and it has been a year since we did that test. It is like living with a time bomb, but I am not going to do anything about it at this time. I expected a lump to show up when I bred her, but she was ok. I am going to test again in a few weeks just to see if anything has changed. I keep thinking that maybe I shouldn't breed her since that compromises their immune system, but she had such a gorgeous doeling last year that I want to do it again.

I have no real history on the goats. The people I bought them from have never seen an abcess on any of thier goats, but who knows where this garbage comes from. I didn't know enough about goats to ask all the right questions unitl I  already owned them.  I only know that it is my cross to bear for now.

I am truly sorry you have to deal with this. These things are always harder when there are children involved.


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## Calliopia (Oct 7, 2010)

Your doe that was faintly positive could have been vaccinated against it.  My understanding is that once vaccinated even though "safe" she's still going to test positive.


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## babsbag (Oct 7, 2010)

I asked the previous owners if they ever vaccinated and they said "no". They also said they never saw any abcesses on any of their goats. They used to show goats so who knows what might have been brought into their property. If the stuff can be spread by a cough then that is always possible, even at a show. It is just a real pain to deal with. The doe that tested 1:8 is her sister from a different year, but same farm and same dam. So why one and not the other?


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## Calliopia (Oct 8, 2010)

It is one of the great mysteries of goatdom.


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## TheSheepGirl (Oct 8, 2010)

CAE and CL seem to be a real problem. It seems to be so common, I would hate to think of how many goats would be killed if Every single goat that tests possitive was culled out of operations. There would be thousands of goats that were killed.

A new test has been developed known as PCR testing. A study was done with this test. When 38 animals that tested positive with the traditional method were tested with PCR testing 5 of them were found to be negative. 26 of 78 suspected cases were found to be negative with the PCR testing. That is significantly higher than 4 in 1000 false positives.

I just thought it was kinda interesting.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2010)

Question:  Did you have to go look that up again, or did you read about it and then it just came rolling right off the top of your head?

Understand that it means nothing either way.  I'm just trying to figure out some stuff about myself right now and this sounds *very much* like something I'd have posted.


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## TheSheepGirl (Oct 8, 2010)

I looked it up cause I was curious about it. The charts were kinda confusing, but the info was summed up later.

I had read in a book that more than 50% percent of all the goats in the U.S. would test positive CAE and CL. 

If that is true then most of the owners of the goats don't even know about it and therefore the goats would have a good chance of living a normal life.

One of our Lamancha does is supposed to have CAE. We were told to watch her for signs and symptoms. She has not shown any. Even if she did I can't imagine killing her for it.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 8, 2010)

Everyone has to do what is right for their farm. If you can live with the diseases, that is great. But if you have reasons for not being able to have those diseases on the farm, then humane euthanasia is certainly better than being neglected or abused because no one wants to properly care for the goat.


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## PJisaMom (Oct 8, 2010)

I wanted to say thank you to everyone who has posted their very sincere and kind replies.  

I have found a solution that will somewhat ease my guilt. 

Tomorrow morning, the kids will be getting up early and heading to the zoo with Daddy.  I will pretend to stay home and clean out the garage or other such nonsense.  I will then find Brownie dead in the barn.  She will have died of a freak birth defect (which coincidentally her twin actually did about a month ago - a double digestive system, with only one going straight to her anus - they figured she got septic and died quickly).  Nothing we could have done.  

I DO NOT like lying to my kids.  But if she "runs away" then they will always be looking for her.  If I give her away to nice people to take care of her, then I will always be the bad guy (and if the excuse is that there is the remotest of possibilities it could make her sister ill, then my oldest will always remember what she had to give up because of her sick sister - she's already going to hate me for it at 14, I don't need to give her another reason).  If she dies, then it's over.  We don't ever have to wonder.  

In reality, Brownie REALLY IS going to live with people who are fully aware of her test results and feel for my situation.  They are going to take her and keep her (with many promises that she will never leave the property).  

I didn't really want to have to euth a perfectly vital little doe... but I also needed to leave myself open to future possibilities (we were thinking milk)... which brings me to the boys.  

Because of their negative status, I am going to Case-Bac  them and watch.  Very closely.  I cannot devastate my children and remove all three goats at one time.  Not to mention Smith and Wesson are a total duo.  A package deal.  One goes, they both go.  

I have contacted the "breeders" and (surprise, surprise!) I haven't heard anything.  I emailed the husband; not sure if he had the cajones to tell his wife (this would be devastating news to them - i truly don't think they knew what they were passing along).  I thought about posting it on her facebook page, but I'm not that mean.  (Even though _I will admit_ it was a bit tempting.)

So Brownie gets to live; I have to tell my kids she died (still not sure I can do it) and get on with life.  

Oh yeah.. and hope like H E DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS that the boys manage to hold off on a miserable existence for years! 

Again... thank you all for your information and advice.  I have truly landed in the right spot.


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## mlw987m (Oct 8, 2010)

I just joined, by I applaud you for going this route!!!!!! Very good solution for all parties concerned


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## Calliopia (Oct 9, 2010)

It sounds like you have come up with a solution that works for all. I'm sorry you have to be the bad guy though, it's never a fun mom job. 

My heart goes out to you!


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## ChksontheRun (Oct 9, 2010)

I agree, it is hard to be a mom sometimes.  Not for the faithearted.  But it sounds like you have come up with a solution that works for your family.  Will be thinking about you today as you have to deal with all of this.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Oct 9, 2010)

That sounds like a great solution!  At least a valuable lesson about life and death for your kids can come out of the situation.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 9, 2010)

Glad you were able to find a solution that should work for all. Those are the decisions that are never easy and you never feel good about it. But you do what is best for your family.


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## PJisaMom (Oct 11, 2010)

FWIW, I couldn't bring myself to lie to my kids... and told them the truth.  They were VERY upset, but seemed to understand.  And... it's WAY better to know she's alive than dead.  Not to mention I told them the people drove away with her in the front seat of the truck and they even watch hockey in the house with some of their goats (uhhhh... yup!).  

Not been an easy weekend, but my kids really surprised me and I guess I have a few more things to learn from them... 

Thanks, everyone.  I really appreciate your input!


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## Roll farms (Oct 11, 2010)




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## mistee (Oct 11, 2010)

so glad to hear a happy ending!!!!


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## babsbag (Oct 11, 2010)

You did the right thing and kids can be amazing and accepting. I am sure that your children will understand and appreciate your reasons someday if they don't now. I am glad you found a home for the goat, and I am glad you didn't have to lie to them. It is the best for all. Good job 

I hope your wethers live a long and happy life.


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## TheSheepGirl (Oct 12, 2010)

I've found that growing up my mom was always more upset than me about the loss of a pet. When our dog died she was heart broken for days and, though i was sad, I got over it faster than her.

Personally, as a kid, I would have been more upset if my pet had died than if it had found a new and possibly better home.

I'm glad that your kids don't have to go through this thinking she's dead and that they get to know she is alive and well.

It's always best not to lie to them and now you all know the true story and that is easier for all.

I'm so happy she got to live.


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