# Two expected litters with two different outcomes...



## JoieDeViveRabbitry (Feb 27, 2010)

I figured this might be a good topic for those rabbit newbies out there...

 Some of you knew that I was expecting two litters this week, one from a pure French Angora doe, one from a F1 French Angora/ Rex cross for an F2 breeding....

 Here is the results of those breedings and how I handled the situations:

 Expresso, my black French doe delivered 5 all black kits on 2/25 at 8:30pm.
 After spending days ripping her box and literally tossing it across the cage, only for me to have to wire it onto the cage, she cut her crap and delivered in the box and on the day she was due, I couldn't have been happier considering she was a maiden dam. 
 The kits were all large and robust, squirmey and looked well fed.

 Munchkin, my cross doe was pregnant at palpation at day 16 and was acting pregnant up until about 5 days ago when I expect that she absorbed her litter. As of this morning she was making no attempt to nestbuild, she was eating like a horse when she had previously been off feed, and was back to her sweet self when she had been acting like a monster a few days ago. She was due yesterday.

 Experience being what it is, I knew for certain when she had been with the buck as I witness all my breedings, and I know that 24 hours before due date you can clearly feel kits in the dam, skulls, spines, even little feet kicking you... I carefully removed the doe from her cage and gently palped her, nothing.


 Now we come to this morning.

 I want to say first that you live and you learn... Prior to this I have never left kits with a doe full time because my rabbits have always been inside a large barn a good distance from my house and I can't keep a close eye on valuable kits from that far away. I usually pull my kits from Mom anywhere from 2-18 hours after delivery and bring them inside in a seperate nestbox leaving the one Mom had them in on top of her cage because she will use it as a litterbox if you leave it in there with no kits in it.
 I then bring the kits to the dam twice a day for the first 10 days and then once a day thereafter until they are strong able bodied babies, usually 3 weeks of age, then they go back to Mom full time.

 Well, my rabbits are ALL inside my house at this time. My living room has been converted into a rabbitry while my barn is being renovated for the rabbits. All new suspended cages are bring built with deep worm beds udnerneath, etc. The buns couldn't be in the barn while all that work is happening.

 Because they are inside and I felt I could keep a better eye on the does, I decided that I would leave Expresso's litter with her when they were born as I am in and out of that room many times a day.


 Big mistake. 

 This morning, I went into my rabbitry/living room to find that my psycho doe who has spent days prior to having her kits tossing her heavy wooden box around, pulled the wired box off the cage and tossed it, with kits inside.
 Two kits are dead and three were cold, the only thing that kept them alive was that when she overturned the box they were trapped under it so they huddled up in some hay and wool.  The other two wandered around the wire and froze, this is the first time this has happened to me. Little bunny popsicles, I'm heartsick. 
 I even tried warming them and CPR (I'm animal certified) but they were too far gone. 

 Now, three kits left... Choices, choices. 
 Leave her to raise three kits?
 Foster them to another doe and re-breed the doe?
 Bottle feed and re-breed the doe?

 I decided I would re-breed Expresso right now to a different buck, fostering these kits over to another dam with a small litter of kits not much older than these. I made my choice based on how fertile the doe is after having kits and based on the fact that she was an easy birther, who made a stellar nest, kindled on time, and put the kits in the box. I think this is just a case a case of a doe who needs experience.
 I re-bred her to a chocolate Sr. buck that I just purchased a few weeks ago, Expresso was very willing to be bred, I wish she had been so the first time around.

 Now, for Munchkin I decided to pull her box and also rebreed her. She was showing no signs of pregnancy and no kits could be felt on palpation.
 I re-bred her back to her sire, she too was easy to breed this time around when she struggled with the buck the first time.

 Will I constantly breed my does like this?! NO way. When Expresso has this next litter she will have a min. of 4 months before she is bred again, same for Munchkin. I simply decided to take advantage of her enhanced state of fertility and that fact that I could foster her now tiny litter.

 I also want to ad a note about Palpation skills. 
 Mine happen to be advanced. I can palp a doe and know exactly where she is within a day or two give or take. If I didn't have good palping skills I would have waited probably another 3-4 days on re-breeding Munchkin to ensure that she wasn't really bred.


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## dbunni (Feb 27, 2010)

Sorry about your loss ... been there.  It hurts no matter how long you have been in rabbits.  This season seems to be a hard one for litters.  We lost 3 litters and a doe (she aborted on the due date and then bled out... BIS doe! I cried).  All EA.

Q ... FA cross?  what are you aiming for?  Just curious.  Please don't read anything into the question ... just curious.  So many people cross for different textures for spinning.

Colleen ...


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## JoieDeViveRabbitry (Feb 27, 2010)

Yes, it hurts. I feel like it's my fault because I had a system that was working and I tinkered so to speak, so I should have just kept my system the way it was working!

 Anyway, on the cross, she was an accident that I decided to keep actually.
 I had a standard Rex doe that I kept on trying to breed and she never took as she was silly and would only breed this one buck, who passed away...

 Well I gave up and I was about to sell her. The day before someone was due to come buy her as a pet, I went to take care of the buns and found a nest in the corner of her cage full of hay and fur!!! She hadn't been with a buck that I had put her with for nearly two months. I was shocked as you can imagine.
 Turned out to be a single HUGE kit. The person who wanted the dam waited and took her when she was finished weaning this little broken Chestnut doe kit. Apparently my 4 year old thought Dunkin "the dam" was lonely when she was in the barn unsupervised and put my big stud French buck in with her for a "visit"... 

 Thank god the big kit birth didn't kill the doe! 

 So, I kept the baby who turned out to have a beautiful French body and all Rex fur!

 What am I aiming for? I'm not really sure! I'm kinda just playing around with her. I did find mention in an antique rabbit book about some man purposely crosing angoras and rexes to improve the density of the wool because Rexes have like double the hair follicals of other breeds which gives them their texture... But it was only a sentance and I never found any other info!

 I have to admit, I've literally had some nightmares about her having babies with rex fur with "spots" of angora wool...
 We'll see what comes out of it.


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