# Alfalfa pellets



## redtailgal (Nov 25, 2011)

I have seen several of you talk about feeding alfalfa pellets to your goats, and of course, I have a few questions.  shocked arent ya?

What are your reasons for feeding alfalfa? it is about milk production, or weight gain or something else?

Do you feed it with other grains? what ratio of alfalfa to grain do you use?

DO you feel that goats that are fed alfalfa has a better weight gain?

Do you feel that goats fed alfalfa have fewer probelms with Urinary Stones?


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Nov 25, 2011)

We tried it with some yearling does that kidded, because I had ran out of alfalfa bales, and I wanted to make sure they had some alfalfa added to their daily diet, besides browse/pasture and a 16% grain.  So far that is my only experience with it. I tried feeding it to some younger kids 3 or 4 months old and they wouldn't eat it. Too big of pellets. They would pick all their grain around it and leave all the pellets.


----------



## elevan (Nov 25, 2011)

I feed it to lactating does and I'll toss a little in for the bucks.  I feed in conjunction with regular grain pellets.  And I agree, kids won't / can't eat it because it's too much size wise...at least for my tiny kids.  Calcium is the primary reason that I feed...plus it stretches their ration


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Nov 25, 2011)

*What are your reasons for feeding alfalfa?* milk production & kid weight gain

*Do you feed it with other grains?* Not at the same time, no. I usually give it as a mid day snack.

*DO you feel that goats that are fed alfalfa has a better weight gain?* so far, our kids that have been getting it, have been bulking better than those who don't.

*Do you feel that goats fed alfalfa have fewer probelms with Urinary Stones?* I do not feed the alfalfa to the bucks, because urinary stones in goats and people are made up of excess calcium.. and alfalfa has a higher concentration of calcium than other hays.

I have had no problems getting my kids to eat the pellets, it is just a matter of snapping the bigger pellets into smaller pieces(about the size of your pinky finger's nail, maybe a little bigger)... now beet pellets are a different story! Only my adult doe will eat those, and "they HAVE TO BE soaked in warm water!" She TOLD me so.


----------



## elevan (Nov 25, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> *Do you feel that goats fed alfalfa have fewer probelms with Urinary Stones?* I do not feed the alfalfa to the bucks, because urinary stones in goats and people are made up of excess calcium.. and alfalfa has a higher concentration of calcium than other hays.


Urinary stones in people are caused by calcium...*in goats they are caused by phosphorus.*


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Nov 25, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what they can be caused by, yes... what they are made up of, no.
It is when phosphorus levels in their intake are too high, which decreases the body's ability to absorb the calcium from their food, which in turn allows the calcium to build up in their kidneys and urethra(IE: urinary calculi{Calculi meaning: calcium stones}. higher phosphorus levels are what cause the calculi to accumulate, but they are not what the calculi are made up of.
Urinary calculi can also be caused by feeding too much calcium to bucks... meaning more than their bodies will absorb.  I don't mind feeding it to growing boys, but once they reach 6 months(or become a wether), we stop feeding it to them.

To sum up: anything in excess, whether for people of animals, is not a good thing.


----------



## elevan (Nov 25, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Growing boys are just as susceptible as a boy of 6 months or greater.  Bucks and wethers have similar susceptibility.

In order to prevent UC feed should be maintained at a 2:1 Calcium to Phosphorus ratio...some recommend a 2.5:1

Have you ever dealt with UC?


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Nov 25, 2011)

Growing bucklings, especially during the first 6 months require more calcium than they do after the 6 month mark, due to the fact that most of their frame growth is done during the first 6 months. That is why we allow them the added calcium benefit of the alfalfa during that time, but not after.

Thankfully, we have yet to have an occurrance of it on our farm.


----------



## elevan (Nov 25, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Growing bucklings, especially during the first 6 months require more calcium than they do after the 6 month mark, due to the fact that most of their frame growth is done during the first 6 months. That is why we allow them the added calcium benefit of the alfalfa during that time, but not after.
> 
> Thankfully, we have yet to have an occurrance of it on our farm.


Glad to hear that you've never had to deal with it, cause it's not pretty.

A goat's frame actually continues to grow through year 3, while the fastest growth happens in the first year.


Each farm of course must develop their own practices based on their individual beliefs.


To the OP's question:  Do you feel that goats fed alfalfa have fewer probelms with Urinary Stones?
My vet encourages the use of alfalfa for all genders of goat.  I feel the same.  I maintain a 2-2.5:1 Calciumhosphorus ratio when feeding.  But as with anything else, there are other considerations as well...good minerals and plenty of fresh water.


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Nov 25, 2011)

the only animal we have ever had develop urinary stones was a stray cat we took in... and the only reason we didn't notice him not peeing, was because he and my cat used 1 litter box... we never thought to watch when they were squatting to see if they were actually peeing or not  I miss Peter. We woke up one morning to find him dead in his crate... he never showed any signs of something being wrong.  One of the coolest cats that has ever been.


----------



## redtailgal (Nov 25, 2011)

Yuk.  I had a persian cat once who developed stones.  We had to take him in to be catheterized and cleaned out.  NOT FUN (I assisted)


----------



## kstaven (Nov 25, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Do you feel that goats fed alfalfa have fewer probelms with Urinary Stones?


A resounding YES to this one. Excess calcium does not cause UC. Lowering calcium and thus allowing the calcium to phosphorus levels to swing the other way does. Anyone who pushes the balance for too long is playing russian roullette and will run out of luck sooner or later. Never happened to me needs to be followed with a YET when the balance is swung to the other side.

And yes a buck grows far past the 6 month stage.


----------



## sunny (Nov 26, 2011)

What are your reasons for feeding alfalfa? it is about milk production, or weight gain or something else?

 It's about weight gain, nice sleek coats, healthy bones, milk production, and proper growth. Alfalfa pellets are the backbone of my diet plan.
I use pellets because they are guarenteed 16% protein and because there is no waste. I brush maybe 1/2 a cup of dust out of the trough, instead of throwing out piles of stems and shattered leaves.

Do you feed it with other grains? what ratio of alfalfa to grain do you use?
My boys don't get grain for the most part. I use a forage pellet mix for them 1 part alfalfa pellets, 1 part timothy pellets, and 1 part beet pulp pellets. They do well on this and maintain weight through the winter and while working. This mix is about 2.5 CA to 1 PH and about 14% protein. My boys do better on lower protein as adults. It is fed at @ 3lbs. per animal per day with a flake of alfalfa hay for long fiber.
 The girls get the above mix, alfalfa hay, and rolled barley and oats on the milkstand.

DO you feel that goats that are fed alfalfa has a better weight gain?
Yes and seem to have less growth stalls from stress.

Do you feel that goats fed alfalfa have fewer probelms with Urinary Stones?
I do and I've lived this one. Running the amount of wethers I have you learn a lot quickly when they all quit peeing. 
 Umm, the word calculi means pebble in Latin.  
 Almost all stones have a small amount of calcium because the body uses the calcium to get rid of the harmful substances. When there's not enough calcium to go around it clumps together forming stones.
 Most stones are calcium phosphate  They are caused by excess phosphorus and low calcium...which are 2 different things really. 
 Some stones are calcium oxalate  These are caused by high oxalate weeds and produce. Chickweed, radish tops, swiss chard, etc.
 There is another stone that is a composit. It is properly functioning pairs of molecules glued together with muco-proteins. These proteins come from gluten and are used as the binding agent for pelleted goat rations such as Nobel Goat. This is why they put Amonium Chloride into pelleted meat goat feeds which are intended for terminal animals.
 There's a lot more to this but, that's a good beginning. 

 Humans get calcium oxalate stones, but if your doctor is telling you to quit eating calcium for getting kidney stones, you need to find a younger better informed one. Even in humans they've discovered that limiting calcium just makes more problems. They now know that the main cause of kidney stones is lack of water.

  I feed a proper balance, try to balance the browse they get, make sure they always have fresh water and push it during cold snaps, and I let their bodies take care of proper PH.


----------



## elevan (Nov 26, 2011)

sunny said:
			
		

> Do you feel that goats fed alfalfa have fewer probelms with Urinary Stones?
> I do and I've lived this one. Running the amount of wethers I have you learn a lot quickly when they all quit peeing.
> Umm, the word calculi means pebble in Latin.
> Almost all stones have a small amount of calcium because the body uses the calcium to get rid of the harmful substances. When there's not enough calcium to go around it clumps together forming stones.
> ...


----------



## redtailgal (Nov 26, 2011)

Sunny.......thank you.  that was a good read, lol.

What kind of goats do you have?

I am trying to develope a meat herd.  Right now I have two boer does.  Small start, lol, but it will get me there eventually.  I also have two mutt wethers, Plato who is rather useless, and Socrates who has proved his value as being a wonderful herd leader.  He is an excellent forager, grazer, and taught these skills to the young doelings that I brought in a few weeks ago.

I want to be able to maximize growth on my slaughter animals without sacrificing their health, and staying within a reasonable amount of expense.

**on a side note, Elroy, my iguana, has some issues with calcium.  His calcium levels are too low and right now I am really having to pay attention to his calcium/phosphorus levels in my attempts to maximize his calcium intake to get that blood calcium and strengthen his soft bones without causing stones.
Alfalfa pellets something the vet recommended for him for this very thing!


----------



## sunny (Nov 27, 2011)

Nice to meet you, you can see my goats here They are a mix of a couple Saanen, Oberhasli, and Alpine/nubian mix. As you can see there are no anorexic Saanens on my feeding plan.
 One very important thing to finding your base stock, find animals that are already being cared for the way you plan to do it. If you want to go high forage, browse only during summer, or hay fed only with grain being reserved for lactating and pregnant does. or if you want to go drug free, whatever your plans turn out to be, find bloodstock whos care mimics very closely what you want and it will save you generations of breeding.
 Boers in particular in the meat breeds can be hardy, thrifty animals that thrive or they can be weak little pansies that get sick at the drop of a hat. It depends on how much thought was put into their breeding, whether they are being bred to improve the breed or just to have kids on the ground to sell.

 Have you asked your vet about supplementing Elroy's vitamin D to help him metabalise more calcium? 
 My ball python is on a hunger strike, silly thing. I raised him from a hatchling and he is about 10 years now. He always quits eating for a couple months in the fall.


----------



## redtailgal (Nov 27, 2011)

Yes, Elroy is on supplements already.   Lol,  I have had rehab snakes that have tried to increase weight on in the winter months...........not fun!

Thanks for the link, your herd is cute!


----------



## KKeiC07 (Dec 5, 2011)

I feed my goats alfalfa pellets because my vet warned me that male goats (bucks or wethers) are prone to kidney stones.

My lamb got rabbit pellets when he was too small to eat the alfalfa pellets that I feed the adult goats/llama, he loved them and was pretty funny to watch when he was learning to crunch them.


----------



## elevan (Dec 5, 2011)

Those "kidney stones" are called Urinary Calculi.  They don't really start in the kidneys but the bladder and most often it's more of a "sludge" or sandy type deposit.  The sludge binds together and forms what we call stones.


----------



## Mossy Stone Farm (Dec 6, 2011)

I start all my babies on alfalfa pellets frist it is there frist grain, then as they get older i add my grain mix..... Most of the time babies don't get grain, jusy great hay water and minerals and browes. this last batch of babies were started on alfa pellets because my hay source dried up for a while. I never have had any babies not be able to eat it....


----------



## Queen Mum (Dec 6, 2011)

Sunny, 

Your info on Alfalfa pellets was right on the money according to my vet.  He read it and said DITTO.  I wish had know more about it a couple months ago when I got here.  I've always fed my goats pretty well, but I now understand why it works the way it does. 

A big thanks for the info.


----------



## elevan (Dec 7, 2011)

Mossy Stone Farm said:
			
		

> I start all my babies on alfalfa pellets frist it is there frist grain, then as they get older i add my grain mix..... Most of the time babies don't get grain, jusy great hay water and minerals and browes. this last batch of babies were started on alfa pellets because my hay source dried up for a while. *I never have had any babies not be able to eat it....*


What breed do you have?  I have pygmies and ND.


----------



## Mossy Stone Farm (Dec 7, 2011)

i have Nubains for Milking and Pygora's for fiber.. I only pull Nubains kids, i let my Pygora's raise there babies, i do keep creep feeders out in the pygora's pasture and the little  ones start on alfala pellets at about 4 weeks .....


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Dec 8, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am amazed that this myth gets perpetuated like it does.  Excess calcium does not cause UC.  Like elevan said- excess phosphorous (that is, phosphorous not balanced by enough CALCIUM) is what causes UC.  

Alfalfa is the backbone of our nutrition here.  Bucks and does alike, gestating/lactating or not.  Dry and open/early bred does may get less of it if they're overconditioned, but everyone gets *at least* enough alfalfa to balance out the phosphorous in grass hay if they aren't getting grained.  IMO, feeding bucks grass hay and grain as their primary diet and then feeding a little alfalfa as an afterthought is madness.

Great info Sunny- we have a similar approach.


----------



## smwon (Feb 17, 2013)

sunny said:
			
		

> My boys don't get grain for the most part. I use a forage pellet mix for them 1 part alfalfa pellets, 1 part timothy pellets, and 1 part beet pulp pellets. They do well on this and maintain weight through the winter and while working. This mix is about 2.5 CA to 1 PH and about 14% protein. My boys do better on lower protein as adults. It is fed at @ 3lbs. per animal per day with a flake of alfalfa hay for long fiber.
> The girls get the above mix, alfalfa hay, and rolled barley and oats on the milkstand.
> .


Sunny, I realize this is an old thread, but I was reading about your forage mix. You said you feed a flake of alfalfa for long fiber. Is the flake for each goat or do you give one for all of them?

Hope you find this!

Linda


----------



## SillyChicken (Feb 19, 2013)

newbie question....... I have 16% alfalfa pellets (rabbit food).. is this different than regular alfalfa pellets for livestock?   

I feed my goats all the grass hay they want, they have free range browse, and I give goat feed pellets, a little sweet feed and the rabbit pellets......_. am I making a mistake?_

I see the ratios numbers people toss around... but how do I know that is what they're getting?  

Currently feeding 2 wethers and a doe, all bit over 7 months old.   I think I need to cut down on the feed a bit, but, they all seem in good condition... the pushy one is a bit fatter so I will be feeding them all separately soon to cut his weight down.




(Very true about human kidney stones, my DH has to drink milk for the calcium, to help bind the minerals that cause his type of stone).


----------

