# Young female LGD injuring/killing large lambs help!



## Esanders (Dec 10, 2021)

Hi, we have a large sheep and goat herd of about 400 which fluctuates as they are feeders not breeding stock. Right now we also have Dora (10 months Komondor/Australian Shepherd) Bo (10 months lab/Bassett/Golden mix) and Nala (3 year old Pyrenees). The younger dogs have been with the herd since they were 5 months and Dora was raised with a ewe/lamb herd. No problems to really report until today. Nala joined the herd a few weeks ago and has been great she came from  a nanny/kid farm where she excelled at her job. The family sold their herd and rehomed her with us. My family is fairly new to LGDs besides my own research and knowing other families with them. Saying that my husband went to where our herd is a few miles away from our house and found 4 dead lambs 1 injured. These lambs weigh 50 to 65 pounds. The injured one had his side ripped open same with 3 of the other dead. The last looked to have died of other issues. Bo was next to one of the dead, but was not interested he checked on the injured lamb and moved on. Nala was in the cattle pasture minding her own business. Dora my husband said acted very guilty and avoided the bodies and injured lamb. She has been caught chewing ears and cornering lambs before. Does anyone have any ideas how to stop this behavior?  She is young and possibly playing too hard (grabbing sides and such). All the dogs get along great and have kept coyotes away since they have joined us.


----------



## rachels.haven (Dec 10, 2021)

Sounds like Dora might be a barnyard dog and not an LGD, but someone more experienced than me should chime in. I'm not sure herding dogs in the background mix of an LGD are a good idea. Anything with prey drive is risky when crossing it in.


----------



## Esanders (Dec 10, 2021)

rachels.haven said:


> Sounds like Dora might be a barnyard dog and not an LGD, but someone more experienced than me should chime in. I'm not sure herding dogs in the background mix of an LGD are a good idea. Anything with prey drive is risky when crossing it in.


Thank you for replying! I wasn't sure on the mix myself. The family we got her from use 2 female komondors and 1 male komondor and 1 male Aussie. They said that the Aussie is her father, I am not totally convinced as she is all white and has no Aussie looks or traits. I will say she stays with the herd (laying in the middle of them) and only leaves them to greet us or to eat.


----------



## secuono (Dec 10, 2021)

Dora and Bo both need to be sold to pet homes.
Mixing LGD with some random not LGD breed does not make them LGD.

Reading a reply, I believe that you can do parentage testing on dogs. You'll need blood from the Kom and the aussie males and blood from Dora. It will tell you who the dad is. If it's the aussie, sell her. If it's the Kom, then you could keep her, but need to separate her from babies and young stock, then start training her.


----------



## farmerjan (Dec 10, 2021)

Aussies and border collies have a very high drive to herd and they often cross the line from working to killing if not constantly under supervision.  
There might be some dynamics with adding a new dog.  Whether she is experienced or not, it may have thrown off the relationship between the other 2... and maybe the younger one is becoming more aggressive.  I would try locking up/penning one at a time and see if you can find the aggressor.  Sometimes taking an established dog from her "home" can cause them to change their behavior;  but I would think it is more likely the young dog.  We will not let our aussies loose with the sheep unless we are out there as they will start to herd them and then get too aggressive towards them if no one is there to control their actions.  Most labs and crosses are not overly aggressive to want to chase or kill livestock.... but again you are talking a young dog and they will follow others.  We had a pack of "neighborhood" dogs that got in and killed several pregnant ewes... one was one of the sweetest golden retrievers, that got caught up in the pack and running.... the owners paid for the dead sheep and we have never seen the dog loose again... I honestly don't think it killed any but it was in the group.  Once they get a taste of blood, there is a slim chance you will stop it.  
I wish you the best of luck.


----------



## rachels.haven (Dec 10, 2021)

secuono said:


> Dora and Bo both need to be sold to pet homes.
> Mixing LGD with some random not LGD breed does not make them LGD.
> 
> Reading a reply, I believe that you can do parentage testing on dogs. You'll need blood from the Kom and the aussie males and blood from Dora. It will tell you who the dad is. If it's the aussie, sell her. If it's the Kom, then you could keep her, but need to separate her from babies and young stock, then start training her.


You may just be able to run a cheek swab through embark for breed percentage. Less complicated. Probably less accurate, but accurate enough.


----------



## secuono (Dec 10, 2021)

rachels.haven said:


> You may just be able to run a cheek swab through embark for breed percentage. Less complicated. Probably less accurate, but accurate enough.


They do that? Neat!


----------



## rachels.haven (Dec 10, 2021)

I think so, but they may also tell you about genetic issues that may crop up in the future. Sometimes, for established pets, you just don't want to know.


----------



## Esanders (Dec 12, 2021)

We have chained up Dora and have had no more issues. The ones killed were in a new group the established herd was never touched. No new injuries have occurred since she was chained. I believe it is possibility of her not claiming the new ones and only knowing the older part of the herd/pen was "hers". She also had already been caught chewing on ears of smaller/weaker animals which we had been working to correct. I understand the concern with Bo but he has always been super gentle with each member, checking in (licking noses,laying with sick ones etc) so he will not be rehomed no disrespect to anybody. We will introduce Dora to the new stock each time and see how it goes. Thank you all for the responses. We may swab her for DNA and see if she is full or half. If she does stay she will be getting fixed as she is intact at this time.


----------



## farmerjan (Dec 13, 2021)

Hope things can be worked out.  Bringing in a new group and then bringing in a new dog did change the dynamics of the 2 you had originally... and you could be right that she just did not accept the new sheep as part of the flock.  I am not so concerned about Bo as he does not have the background to be overly aggressive.  I think you hit it right with Dora being the problem.  I hope that you can work with her... and you may find that she will only work with one group of sheep and will not be able to be moved or mixed in with others.  Fixing may help to calm the hormones too.  You do not want to cause the older experienced dog to change her attitude or abilities with the animals since that is what she is well experienced at doing.   Best of luck.


----------



## Ridgetop (Dec 16, 2021)

So sorry for the loss of the lambs.  The loss of livestock in any flock is a monetary loss for the rancher and even worse when the animal is killed by a predator that is not killing for food.  This is why sheep killers are destroyed.  

First let's address why Nala could not prevent the sheep being killed.  Nala is a three year old trained Pyrenees LGD.  She could have tken out one or both or the 2 younger dogs if he wanted to do so, *BUT* she is at a disadvantage in protecting this flock since she was introduced only 3 weeks ago to a *resident pack (BO and Dora) currently living with this flock.  The resident pack (Dora and Bo) are the dominant pack leaders.  *Nala cannot protect the sheep since she has not yet completed her bond with the flock and is seeing killing behavior in the resident dogs.  *She will not attack the other 2 dogs to defend the sheep because they are the dominant pack members at this time.  *As a new pack member she will accept the behavior as normal for this pack and flock even though it confuses and upsets her.  

Since you were already having problems with Dora chewing ears, and are pretty certain that she is the guilty dog you must remove her from the flock.  Cross bred GD and herding or hunting dogs are a bad mix.  Depending on which way their mixed genetics go they can be fair guardians or end up killing their charges.  I would say this is probably the "killing their charges" genetics at work.  Since you run 400 feeder animals, I assume that this is a ranch operation where you are trying to make a profit.  You can't do that with a sheep killer on the property.  Having already killed 4 sheep she probably cannot be retrained and would certainly never be trustworthy as a guardian.  Regardless of whether she is full or part Komondor, with this behavior I would advise spaying her.  

I don't know where you live, but sheep killers usually are required to be destroyed in rural farm areas.  Not to be cruel, but Dora should probably be destroyed before she gets hold of someone else's sheep.  Since it was your sheep she killed, you could decide to rehome her BUT you need to warn all prospective rescue kennels or potential owners that she is a sheep killer. If she is rehomed in a rural area and kills more sheep how will you feel?  If she tears up another ranchers' sheep or goats you will be liable for the animals killed and injured; and she will still have to be destroyed.  It will be your responsibility since you knew she was a sheep killer.

Addressing the issue of LGD's marking their flock by biting ears and legs, some LGDs do go through a puppy or teenage time when they will play* with their favorite sheep*, biting at ears and legs.  They play with their *favorite *lambs because they are playing with their best buddies.  They usually do not do this type of behavior with animals they don't like.  Since the sheep are sheep and not dogs, the lambs do not turn on their doggy buddies to bite them back.  The dog that is playing thinks this is a game and the sheep are having just as much fun as it is.  This is also how neighborhood dogs running loose start out as sheep killers.  They play chase and then get carried away, particularly if they are running in a group.

Dora's age of 10 months is about right for LGD teen chasing behavior and the 50 to 65 lb range for the dead lambs is also correct.  *BUT* *this LGD teen behavior is usually carried out with the LGD pup's favorite lambs - its "besties" that are members of its "pack".  *This LGD play behavior rarely goes so far as to result in dead animals.  Dora's act of killing the four newly arrived new lambs rather than just marking her BFF lambs *is not typical of LGD teenage play/chase behavior.*  She has killed 4 sheep and will kill more when released back into the flock.  Probably not when you are around.  Since you do not live on the property where you graze your sheep/goats you will not catch her at this behavior until after you have lost more livestock.  And this behavior is tempting to the other dogs.  Bo may join in with Dora (if he was not already a partner) when she starts her next oh-so-fun-chase-and-kill play day.

Next is Bo, another crossbred - 2 retrievers and a hound in his genetics.  This is a very bad mix to run with your sheep and goats since the hunting and hound dog genetics have a very strong prey drive.  If he did not already participate with Dora in the killing, he probably will at some stage.  At this point, you could rehome him if he did not kill any sheep.  You should at least remove him from the pasture too.  Depending on the size of the pasture, your predator species and number Nala might be able to defend the flock by herself.  You can also bring in another LGD to help her, making sure that it is a working LGD not a mixed breed.  

I don't like to be so negative, but if you are raising 400 animals it is obvious that you plan to make a profit on this operations.  A sheep killer will seriously undercut your bottom line.  A sheep killer is also dangerous to neighboring ranchers.


----------

