# How to find the right buck for my does....time is now!



## savingdogs (Aug 29, 2010)

Okay, so I'm the city girl moved country in my middle age, who fell in love with dairy goats last summer, now have two quasi mini nubian does about 14 months old and I'm dying to breed them and get my first milk! Advice needed! 

I realize the first freshening might not be much but I would like to make soap so won't need but a few cups and want to try the taste, etc. A safe and healthy delivery of something saleable is the goal. We were thinking smaller buck this time, mini nubian next year. Learn to milk our girls as we wean the babies, teach them about the stanchion, etc. 

My does are actually 1/2 full nubian and 3/4 nigy mixed with 1/4 pygmy. So they are too small to breed to a full nubian and I'm having trouble finding a mini nubian buck that isn't half a state away. The one that is coming in heat (Molly) looks somewhat like her 1/8 pygmy heritage so I was thinking of breeding her to one since there are many locally available for stud cheap, one just a few miles down the road although he isn't particularly cute. 

My other goal is to make my money back on the breeding and disbudding costs, etc., so I'd like to choose the right buck!~

Do you generally take your girl to the buck for awhile? I don't want a bucky smell here and don't want the two females delivering at the same time. 

Second doe is a little larger but is double-teated so we are not as anxious to breed her to just any buck. I'd like to find something known to have good udders in their line. And if I'm gonna pay more, I'd rather it be a real mini-nubian, so I'm considering just not breeding her this year unless I hear of the right thing. She looks like a mini-nubian so I would not want the same possible pygmy buck as I might choose for Molly.

Would it be a lot to take on, having two females with babies the first time in the same spring?
I need a little advice too on the correct questions to ask someone offering their buck for stud. My goats were from a healthy herd whose parents were tested, but have not performed any tests myself as we are 100 percent isolated. Will buck owners want to see this testing is done? Or if they don't, should I be worried their buck could carry illness? 
I've posted similar questions on here before but as the time draws near I realize I need more guidance from some experts I can trust, like you guys! Thanks in advance!


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## freemotion (Aug 29, 2010)

savingdogs said:
			
		

> Learn to milk our girls as we wean the babies, teach them about the stanchion, etc.


Can't help you on your main question, as there are so few available in my area that I just buy a buckling and sell him when he has had his way with the ladies.  Or maybe they've had their way with him....

But I do want to urge you to get your girls used to the stanchion now, and not wait until you are dealing with their screaming kids in the background, making your girls all nervous and fidgety.  Feed them on the stand and handle their udders, even wash the udders and as many steps involved in milking as you can recreate now.  Make that stanchion attractive.  It will make life SOOOO much easier later.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 29, 2010)

I wouldn't use a Pygmy if you are wanting dairy goats or promoting your kids as dairy goats. If you can find a Nigerian Dwarf to use, that would be better. If you want to move goats quickly, then you want cute and flashy. So I wouldn't use a buck just because he is down the road. No matter what your girl, make it a good breeding so the kids are sellable. 

i don't have mini Nubians so I really can't answer mini Nubian questions in particular. I'm not sure what you mean by 2 teated unless you mean that she has more than 2 teats. No matter what, she can genetically pass that on so while you do want to breed to a quality buck, there will always be a fault.


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## savingdogs (Aug 29, 2010)

There is actually a nigy advertised currently for 50 dollars stud fee, and I was looking at him. I'm not sure what I'd call that cross to advertise however....Nigy mix? 

We don't have our actual stanchion but we do practice milking type stuff already. We have a platform they like to jump on and eat and we handle them and do their feet there. Good advice to wash them and stuff too, thanks.

Yes, Ginger has a total of four teats, two on each side. The extra ones are small and high and we hope to still be able to milk her, but we were not as sure about breeding her as the more desireable looking teats one, Molly. However Ginger looks more mini nubian and also is a better calmer personality.
We are not looking to show, we want milk and to have the goats cost us as little as possible overall is the goal. But it is Molly who is in heat.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Aug 30, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> savingdogs said:
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I agree...get them on the stanchion ASAP...trim their hooves...wash udders..get them some grain up there...just so thier use to be handled...its hard to teach an old dog new tricks...not impossible..but well worth it if you get them familar long before you actually do it.. Less stressful to them too. My girls were on a small wooden table my husband made when they were weeks old...and there very easy to handle...Thankfully!   Good luck...Unsure about the buck question cuz we keep a buck...But ask the breeder who advestises the services..


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## Calliopia (Aug 30, 2010)

Just offering one solution to the extra teat doe.  

One of my old girls is a boer/nubian cross and has a terrible udder.  She is a great mom though and takes in orphans easily and raises nice big babies that are all destined for the freezer regardless of sex. 

This is less of a solution with minis but there are always people interested in goat meat. 

This way you could still breed her and see how she does with milking, etc and not feel bad about putting possible genetic time bombs back into the mix.


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## ()relics (Aug 30, 2010)

> Will buck owners want to see this testing is done? Or if they don't, should I be worried their buck could carry illness?


Yes...They should want to see a Certified Vet Inspection as well as negative test results for CAE/CL, at least, with the animals specific ID number/tattoo on the forms, that is dated within the last 90 days...Yes...You should want to see the same paperwork from the owner of the buck...IF the owner isn't that interested in seeing paperwork then, I would think the buck he is using for stud services isn't very valuable to him or it already has whatever you don't want....



> There is actually a nigy advertised currently for 50 dollars stud fee


Honestly I wouldn't even let you into my pasture for $50....But If he had a nice buck and it is clean, that sounds like a good deal to me.  It is substantially cheaper than keeping your own buck all year.  He may offer a driveway service, which would essentially mean you put your goat in your own trailer and pull it to his farm.  You unhook your trailer and leave.  He introduces his buck to your doe inside your trailer, then when the deed is done he calls you to come and get your trailer and goat.  He may charge you a couple of dollars per day to feed and water your doe.  I would get a guarenteed service in writing so if in 150 days your doe doesn't kid you either get another service or your money back.
  I would think the stud route may be the best way for you to go.  It will allow you to have your goat bred then kid without you actually buying a buck.  As you spend more time around Your goats you may change your mind or formulate new goals about your herd plan.  Then you can look for a billy that fits your idea of a perfect billy....jmo


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## Hollywood Goats (Aug 30, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> > Will buck owners want to see this testing is done? Or if they don't, should I be worried their buck could carry illness?
> 
> 
> Yes...They should want to see a Certified Vet Inspection as well as negative test results for CAE/CL, at least, with the animals specific ID number/tattoo on the forms, that is dated within the last 90 days...Yes...You should want to see the same paperwork from the owner of the buck...IF the owner isn't that interested in seeing paperwork then, I would think the buck he is using for stud services isn't very valuable to him or it already has whatever you don't want....
> ...


I found someone an hour away that will stud my doe for $50, so I guess it is the usual price. her goats are gorgeous!!


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## ()relics (Aug 30, 2010)

Hollywood Goats said:
			
		

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I stand corrected.....I guess you could get your goat bred for a $50 stud fee....I wouldn't worry about quality or structure...and forget any sort of paperwork...Just breed her to the cheapest billy you can find...that sounds like a good business plan to me...You breed to a Fullblood/purebred buck that actually betters your line you aren't going to spend $50, you may not even find a breeder that will even breed 1 goat for you...But what would I know....and use that drive-by breeding scheme...I think you need a handgun for that....that is probably why it is so cheap


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## freemotion (Aug 30, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> use that drive-by breeding scheme...I think you need a handgun for that....that is probably why it is so cheap


  Is that something like a shotgun wedding?


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## ()relics (Aug 30, 2010)

not sure its a little piece of New Knowledge that I picked up in a thread...and I thought I had heard of everything...


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## ohiofarmgirl (Aug 30, 2010)

> You breed to a Fullblood/purebred buck that actually betters your line you aren't going to spend $50, you may not even find a breeder that will even breed 1 goat for you...But what would I know....and use that drive-by breeding scheme...I think you need a handgun for that....that is probably why it is so cheap


$50 is pretty standard fee around here too. no guns required. it goes like this:

regular goat person: hello breeder - do you have a stud available?
breeder not overly concerned with dictating others breeding needs:  why yes. please come right over. that will be $50. we'll be very happy to keep your doe for 2 weeks. 
RGP: thank you very much
breeder: no problem i'm happy to help you. 

isnt that just shocking. and it works.


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## ()relics (Aug 30, 2010)

....6 months later....
RGP's vet:  the test results are in and she has tested positive for CAE/CL/Johnnes/foot rot/insert any of the other horribles.
RGP: that is impossible I have a closed herd and my goats never leave my farm....Except that one time I took them to Breeder X.
RGP's Vet:  Breeder X....you are kidding Breeder X...Why were you looking for a good deal??


    Somewhere the Title of this post must have changed from "the Right Buck for my Does" to "the Right Now Buck for my Does"...The Right Buck would, I assume, improve your present line....I may be wrong...and generally if you wanted to improve your line by "Finding The Right Buck" You would need to have a herd plan in mind and look at several bcuks to find just the right one..... then when you found that "Right Buck" there is a good chance he wouldn't also be the Cheapest buck...


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## ohiofarmgirl (Aug 31, 2010)

golly relics, i havent had any of those problems. i'm sorry that your breeding program has gone so badly - if thats your experience.

my mutt goats milk like demons, must be parasite resistant because we dont have a problem, they are even tempered, and (looks out in the yard) are doing just fine. actually they are doing great. we have one papered show girl - and when i take her back to the breeder he tells me that she looks better than when he had her. 

but maybe i'm just lucky. 

or maybe its just not that complicated and we're talking about goats.

as far as the herd plan goes, folks should have one. here's mine:

* keep milkers we have now
* breed them as it makes sense for us
* if i cant sell the babies on craigslist or to the local 4h kids - we butcher them
* dont give a hoot about improving my "line" or creating the perfect goat.

ohmigosh. i just realized that i'm one of those people who, according to you, doesnt have any business breeding goats!

well, we'll just have to keep muddling along.....


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## ()relics (Aug 31, 2010)

Ha can't resist this...Just one more.  First this bit of fluff most recently posted:  What exactly would that have to do with the OP ?  I'll answer this one...Nothing  Second if you are aware of a breeder that offers a stud service, would that service be only for you or would Anyone that cannot afford a buck be able to take advantcge of this offer?  Rhetorical...Anyone.  So said breeder offers his buck's services to anyone and everyone with $50 and an open doe?  Again rhetorical...Now would you guess that some of the people that use this service may have "issues" in their herd that you wouldn't want in yours?  Rhetoical again for anyone with common sense.  Would you say your chances of contracting something "unwanted" at this guys house are better or worse than if you left your goat at home?  I hate this but its again rhetorical...So you in your vast knowledge feel obligated to tell the OP, who may not know, that there is nothing to worry about using a Cheap breeder and that you do it all the time...But yet is anyone sure that you, in fact, don't already carry some unwanted in your herd?  You sell goat kids, even to 4Her's...Have you been certified clean?  And Why would a 4H kid want to try to show a 





> mutt goats


your words, anyway and potentially a carrier Mutt goat...
  Just saying, what works for you isn't probably the best thing for everyone else...I run a closed herd that is Certified Clean...I don't have to guess...I post only Common knowledge ,to experienced goat people. ...FYI you are welcome to stop by anytime, Others that post here have, to see for yourself.  
Just one last item for the OP.  Recently I was approached with a "potential" proposition.  I would use 1 of my FB bucks to breed an FB doe.  The stud fee would be negotiable depending on the outcome of the breeding but would probably include a "kid back" from the does owner....Now a little math:  FB boer doeling= $150-500...Sound like alot more than $50.  I declined the offer reason given: Too Much Risk....that is 1 FB breeder to another.  Not Breeder X to anyone that answers his Clist ad.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Aug 31, 2010)

> .I post only Common knowledge ,to experienced goat people. ..


* looks up at title of site, sees BACKYARDHERDS not Self Righteous Goat Breeders *

golly. you really got me there. 

but i post common sense to folks who have backyard herds...served without a side of derision and a helping of contempt for new folks starting out.


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## glenolam (Aug 31, 2010)

Been watching this thread, and felt the need to jump in, even though I proabably should just 

FWIW - I think that sometimes we create our own problems because we are afraid of what _could_ happen.

Near me is a registered herd with a champion nigerian buck who has earned a dairy star....my mutt goats are allowed over anytime for breeding or playtime.  And breeding is free.....

That same breeder, who BTW does test for everything under the sun*, just mentioned that she has to keep her own bucks because other breeders she knows close and far away are too scared to have 'shot gun weddings' let alone allow a doe to stay/buck to leave for any period of time.

*She tests for two reasons - 1: She shows her goats and wants to have the highest return by breeding proven winners (mind you I know little of show quality, registered goats) 2: She must have all that testing done if she ever wants to use another buck.  If other breeders were less concerned of what _could_ happen, it'd save a lot of time and money.  JMO....  Then again, I'm not an experienced goat person, therefore I have no common knowledge to share....


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## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2010)

Relics() is employing a discussion tactic I commonly use...I like to call it "terrible ways to make excellent points."  It's not a very good strategy because it invariably opens the door for the person holding the opposing viewpoint to begin openly launching character attacks instead of forcing them to address the points being made, but....well, when you're really passionate about something, it can be a satisfying tactic to indulge.

Anyway..  :/

The points Relics() makes are valid; there's only one way providing a $50 stud buck is a worthwhile venture for the stud owner, and biosecurity almost certainly isn't part of the plan.  Top-notch biosecurity would require health papers from both parties, plus a quarantine period for the buck after the doe leaves the premises..  Once the quarantine period is up, he can service another/more doe(s), and be quarantined again..  

At $50/whack, that's not happening.  

In fact, I *personally witnessed* a CL+ doe running with a very, very expensive stud buck one day as I was watching goats for someone.  Classic site...front of chest...and the hair had already slipped off of it.  I called the owner, made him aware of the situation, and was asked to isolate the doe into a stall by herself.  

I reluctantly agreed and made a mental note that I should probably buy more bleach.  :/

He then asked me if any of the other does in the pen seemed to be in heat..  Yep...ol' number 42 (or whatever)...I described her to him and he says "Good!" and goes on to tell me she's someone else's doe that's in for service, and this means he can send her home soon.

Now...imagine that was your doe...and imagine I hadn't seen that hairless lump, or hadn't cared enough to jump into the fray and get her isolated in time...

And this guy charges WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than $50.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 31, 2010)

Only you can decide what risks are worth taking. I also have alpacas and I have alpaca breeders who bring their late term pregnant girls here for birthing. I can't afford to take even the slightest risk of CAE or CL or Johnes for this reason (alpacas can get those diseases from the goats). I would be owing someone a lot of money if their alpaca came up positive for any of those diseases, not to mention that I would lose other birthing business. So testing and making sure to have a clean herd is imperative for me. 

There are plenty of people with goat herds who aren't as particular about those diseases being in their herds. But they probably don't have as much to lose as I do. I could lose my farm business and I'm not willing to do that after I have put 13 years into it.

Like I said, everyone has to decide what risks are worth taking and for each person it is different. A lot of people wouldn't want the pregnant alpacas coming and going from their farm like I have. I do risk having serious parasite problems. But so far it has worked out for me. In general, people who are willing to pay to have someone else birth their alpaca are people who regularly worm and take good care of their alpacas.


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## savingdogs (Aug 31, 2010)

Gosh didn't mean for this to become contentious! I welcome all advice, as I realize that things may be different from place to place as far as price and practice. I guess I'm getting a range of opinions which I would say was good, except I'm a person who likes to promote harmony and perhaps my questions just have more than one answer. Can't we all get along, since everyone has a different "herd plan"? But my goats are already "mutt goats". Nothing will make their babies purebreds.

Relics I have the feeling goats are your business whereas for me I've just got pets I'd like to spend as little as possible on, who are going to give me little benefits later. I only want to build my herd to maybe five or seven total goats, givng me some milk now and again, selling off babies except once in a great while. 

But note here that I'm savingdogs.....I've done dog rescue for the last 12 years recycling dogs thrown away in the backyard breeder business for the most part. So I want to be careful here. 

 I want to do things right but also don't want to overdo or spend too much as my goal here is just a little milk, a little fun and some self sufficiency.  I work for a large animal vet but we are kinda the most expensive/highest quality around here so not necessarily in my budget as far as advice goes and y'all on here have not always agreed with him either (does not recommend Bose for goats).

I can see now that SOME breeders are going to ask for that paperwork and some won't give a hoot. But you guys have given me some ideas on leads.

One thing we do not currently have is a trailer (old one in accident) so transporting them means they go into the back of an SUV to either vet or breeder....no drive-by breeding can happen for Molly.

Calliopia thank you for the suggestion, we cull extra ducks and chickens but goats are not on that list for us. Lucky for the goats of Clark County.....the Himalayan blackberry rules all fields here and goats are popular, even common. 
While our woods would support lotsa wethers three seasons a year, we cannot afford to feed a lot of wethers through the winter when blackberry and alder are bare. So perhaps for us, less is more!  I see I will be asking at work what that test costs....sigh.
Thank you all for your advice.


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## freemotion (Aug 31, 2010)

See why I just buy a buckling?  He is isolated for a few weeks/months anyways.  Then even if I have to give him away (can't imagine that being necessary) I end up ahead of the game financially.  Dairies sell bottle babies in the spring for like $10 each if you are up to the work.  I'm not.

And it takes no effort to frame your answer in a nice way....if you really want to protect goats all over the country from CL, etc, people will listen better if your answer is easy to read and polite.  Just sayin'.


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## glenolam (Aug 31, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> And it takes no effort to frame your answer in a nice way....if you really want to protect goats all over the country from CL, etc, people will listen better if your answer is easy to read and polite.  Just sayin'.


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## ()relics (Aug 31, 2010)

glenolam said:
			
		

> .....
> 
> That same breeder, who BTW does test for everything under the sun*, just mentioned that she has to keep her own bucks because other breeders she knows close and far away are too scared to have 'shot gun weddings' let alone allow a doe to stay/buck to leave for any period of time.
> 
> *She tests for two reasons - 1: She shows her goats and wants to have the highest return by breeding proven winners (mind you I know little of show quality, registered goats) 2: She must have all that testing done if she ever wants to use another buck.  If other breeders were less concerned of what _could_ happen, it'd save a lot of time and money.  JMO....  Then again, I'm not an experienced goat person, therefore I have no common knowledge to share....


If this person does not operate her farm as a closed system then she would never be considered a "clean herd".  Anytime...ANYTIME another goat entered her facility she would have to  retested her herd to be sure, that in fact, someones goat didn't bring something to her place...That doesn't sound very economical to me...And if something did turn up?  Her "clean" status would be lost and she then could essentially cull everything and start rebuilding.  So much for her "grand champion show goats"...they would be nothing more than slaughter animals.
Goats as a living??? Yeah...No...Serious about Biosecurity?  Definitely...I have too much invested to start selling them for slaughter price....
An analogy in closing:  You fall off your favorite horse and hear something snap.  You figure you may need some professional help.  You would:   
  A. Call your plumber
  B. Call the local Librarian because you are sure they have "medical type" books in the library.
  C. Call the Docter

I would call the docter.  Even though the plumber or the librarian may be able to dispense some knowledge,  It should be considered unproven, At Best


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 31, 2010)

1. Sorry, but it'd be hard for a goat to get CAE from a breeding, so I'll just cross that one off the list.  

2.  I find it hard to believe that people who take their goats to shows (exposing them to ALL sorts of goats who may or may not have CL) is having such a fit about a driveway breeding proposal.  

And just because someone charges a $50 stud fee does not mean they have sub par goats.  A very big Nubian breeder/shower lives just down the road from me, and she charges $50 for driveway breedings.  

Just my $.02.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2010)

Speaking of shows, I also know someone who had a goat all lined up for a series of shows....and it popped up a CL knot.

It was all kept very hush-hush, but I was asked if I wanted to come see how one was drained and flushed....um, no thanks.  I'm gonna take a pass this time, cause...yanno...I guess I'd rather NOT have to burn my clothes and sell the car I drove home in.

Last I heard, the goat healed up and haired back over juuuuuuuust in time to be taken to show...at which point it was almost certainly mingled with other folks' fancy show animals.

We don't show, either.  :/


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 31, 2010)

AND, if you can't even have another goat walk on the property for a breeding and maintain "closed" herd status, then why can you take a goat to a show and maintain it?  Show goats are next to each other for several days, nosing all around etc.


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## jodief100 (Aug 31, 2010)

This is one of the reason we stick to market goats.  I just don't want to deal with the fear of loosing your entire herd to someone else's bad judgement about bringing questionable animals to shows.  I vaccinate against everything I can and make sure any animals that are symtomatic get seperated and sent to market when economically feasable.

Just for information, I did get CL brought onto my property, from a buck and doe I bought out of a CLOSED herd.    We have it under control now, no additonal animals are symptomatic.  The ones that were are well isolated.  Since I vaccinate now testing is useless, Cas-Bac gives a false positive.  

My advice, consider the risks and make the best decision for your situation.  This discussion is great because you are able to get a good education about those risks.  I don't think that someone with a few goats for thier own enjoyment needs to be be AS concerned about CL as someone who has high end show goats.  No you don't want to have a callous attitude about it either it is a serious disease. There is a risk/reward analysis that needs to be done with every choice we make in life.  Just be honest with yourself about the risks and give full disclosure to any potential customers.  The most important part: enjoy your goats!


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## savingdogs (Aug 31, 2010)

I like your perspective, jodieF, thank you. Helps to set a calmer tone in this thread as well, which it needed! 

It does seem that there are many examples of disease spread despite cautions being taken. I think it will boil down to using good judgement about people and how the animals/facilities themselves look. 

I'm beginning to think I'd prefer to use some word of mouth sources to find a stud rather than CL where I saw so many last year, such as asking for a reference from the folks we bought these gals from. 
I have some leads at my work as well.


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## ()relics (Aug 31, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> AND, if you can't even have another goat walk on the property for a breeding and maintain "closed" herd status, then why can you take a goat to a show and maintain it?  Show goats are next to each other for several days, nosing all around etc.


Any show goats are kept in a string always apart from your primary herd.   They are fed differently so it only makes sense to always keep them seperate.  When you arrive at a show you are given a thorough pat-down by a show official, anything doesn't look right the goat stays on the trailer.  You can unload anywhere and use any path, usually to get into the make-up barn.  You are given a perfectly clean, down to the limestone or concrete,area or stall, that you bed or disinfect, whatever as you see fit.  A goat at a show is not free to roam around and swap spit with all the other animals, it must stay within certain boundaries.  Common walkways to and from the arena are just that Common, dip your animals feet if that makes you feel better, I do.   As mentioned earlier, when you bring the animal home it stays with your other show stringers or is quarentined for At Least 30 days, before it would be allowed to comingle with any other of your herd.  Really a show is filled with goats that are owned by breeders, with every intention of winning....Honestly does anyone think that someone would try to slip in a sickly goat, knowing it will be subjected to a visual inspection.  Then expecting to place something sick against other show animals? You may fool some people but that is an awful chance to take, trying to fool the show superintendant, the judge, and other breeders/showman, who all know what a sick or diseased goat looks like...And have one of your goats refused entry...You will never live it down.  You will be double checked Extra Carefully from then on at any show you attend, never mind about selling any of your stuff to your fellow showmen.  If you show or have ever shown You Know Reputation is EVERYTHING.  I won't argue the increased chance of external parasites and the occasional respiratory infection but beyond that...And yes to be a completely clean herd you would need to retest your show stock while they are in quarentine at the end of the season.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> You are given a perfectly clean, down to the limestone or concrete,area or stall, that you bed or disinfect, whatever as you see fit.  A goat at a show is not free to roam around and swap spit with all the other animals, it must stay within certain boundaries.


Uhhh...the KY state fair hosts many, many show competitors for all classes of goats -- both in dairy, and meat breeds -- and they're all housed in a big barn that's open to the public.  People *routinely* walk all around the goat pens, ogling and petting goats from one pen to the next, to the next, to the next..  Some breeders make hand sanitizer available and put up a sign asking folks to sanitize between goats...but people don't.

Biosecurity?...yeah, pretty much none.



> Really a show is filled with goats that are owned by breeders, with every intention of winning....Honestly does anyone think that someone would try to slip in a sickly goat, knowing it will be subjected to a visual inspection.


As I said earlier, I *personally know* of at least one instance in which a CL+ goat was doctored on specifically so that she could still be entered in an upcoming show.  

So, yeah, I *do* think someone would take a chance on slipping a diseased goat into a show.

I also *personally know* of at least one instance where someone came to a show without required health papers, found an official they knew, told them they didn't have the health papers....and were good ol' boy'd right on into the show ring.

What I think -- and forgive me for saying this, but -- what I think is that if you truly believe the animals at a show are healthy and safe simply because they're at a show, you're fooling yourself.  

Afterall, there's money to be made at shows...people do lots of irresponsible things that have the potential to harm others when there's money involved.


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## ()relics (Aug 31, 2010)

I guess I should have prefaced that with the fact that the only show experience I have had is ABGA and USBGA sanctioned shows....County fairs are a whole different animal.  While we do show at the county level most of the animals are terminal...They Go But They Don't Come Home.  At our county or any other show for that matter you can ask for and get multiple stalls, sometimes it costs extra.  That puts an empty on both sides of your animals.  I don't think the people to goat disease risk is very large...Money at Goat shows?  Win a Classic or the State Fair...heck even win at the county level...you will have people calling you for wethers for the show season next year.  I admit if you really wanted to slip in a sick animal there is a way, but what would you have to gain?  My sons wether went off feed the day before we had to check him in at the fair this summer.  I left him at home, much to my son's dismay, because I told him there was No Way his wether could compete against a wether on full feed, even though he only really didn't eat 1 day....Why go if you can't win?


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## glenolam (Aug 31, 2010)

savingdogs said:
			
		

> I like your perspective, jodieF, thank you. Helps to set a calmer tone in this thread as well, which it needed!


I agree, as well.  You need to weigh all the pros and cons and decide what's best for YOU and YOUR GOATS.



> It does seem that there are many examples of disease spread despite cautions being taken. I think it will boil down to using good judgement about people and how the animals/facilities themselves look.


I wish more people thought like that.



> I'm beginning to think I'd prefer to use some word of mouth sources to find a stud rather than CL where I saw so many last year, such as asking for a reference from the folks we bought these gals from.
> I have some leads at my work as well.


Just don't completely knock out the CL ads....you may find that one diamond in the ruff!  The main thing, as you said, is finding someone you can trust.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> I guess I should have prefaced that with the fact that the only show experience I have had is ABGA and USBGA sanctioned shows....County fairs are a whole different animal.


Read again...I'm talking about the _Kentucky State Fair._  These are sanctioned shows.  The dairy shows were ADGA sanctioned, and there was an IBGA sactioned show for FB and percentage Boer does, as well as Boer bucks.  An acquaintance of mine *cleaned house* with her herd, and had the grand champion yearling buck.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not really into the whole show scene, but I know just enough to realize that these aren't exactly piddly little shows.

I also happen to know that ABGA held their nationals at the Expo center in Louisville this past June...I saw the pictures...same accomodations at the nationals as there are for any other goat show at that particular venue.  Plenty of butt-sniffing opportunities.

And the goats can sniff noses, too.  



> I don't think the people to goat disease risk is very large...


Maybe...maybe not...but I don't see much difference in how goat snot is transferred from one goat to the next, but only that it gets transferred -- be it goat to goat, or goat _to hand_ to goat..

Maybe there is a difference, though...I dunno.



> Money at Goat shows?  Win a Classic or the State Fair...heck even win at the county level...you will have people calling you for wethers for the show season next year.  I admit if you really wanted to slip in a sick animal there is a way, but what would you have to gain?  My sons wether went off feed the day before we had to check him in at the fair this summer.  I left him at home, much to my son's dismay, because I told him there was No Way his wether could compete against a wether on full feed, even though he only really didn't eat 1 day....Why go if you can't win?


Because some people would rather make someone else's goat sick than disappoint their son...that's why.  You're not one of those people -- and for that, you deserve credit -- but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that you're in the minority.

Not to mention, hell, I do stuff all the time that I'm no good at, simply because it's FUN!  Or, I used to...before I got goats...when I had time.  

Fishing..  Golf..  Sex..  I'm not particularly good at any of those, but I still enjoy participating!  Likewise, I suspect there are people who maybe have a sickling or two that could stand to stay at home, but...meh...they already made plans and took the time off work, the human kids are all stoked, blah blah blah...load'em up.  Maybe they'll get lucky and the goat will improve, or maybe nobody else's goat is any better..  

Know what I'm saying?


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 31, 2010)

So, ()relics, if show people always quarantine their show goats, isn't it perfectly reasonable to bet that many people who offer stud services also quarantine or have a separate buck just for studding out?  

And yes, in an ideal world nobody would bring a sick goat to a show, but we both know we don't live in an ideal world.  I have shown sheep extensively and I have NEVER been to a show that allowed one person/family/whatever to leave empty stalls on either sides of sheep or goats. There's just not that much space to go around.  And we both know that when goats are penned next to each other, they will nuzzle/sniff/butt/etc each other over the fence.


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## ()relics (Aug 31, 2010)

I will say that if more people thought through some of these issues _Beforehand_ and tried to workout viable solutions/plans, like you and I and several other breeders here, that APHIS and NONAIS would have little use to anyone, or should I say No Use at all, because they have little use now.

@ CM


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## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I have NEVER been to a show that allowed one person/family/whatever to leave empty stalls on either sides of sheep or goats. There's just not that much space to go around.


X2...there's almost always overflow in the dairy cattle barn for dairy goats that wouldn't fit in the barn with the rest of the dairy goats.



> And we both know that when goats are penned next to each other, they will nuzzle/sniff/butt/etc each other over the fence.


My wife and I were walking through the concourse of Broadbent Arena at the State Fair last year when this little wether steps right out into the hall -- all by himself -- like...."Wassup, peeps.  Hey, you got any grain you can spare?"   I looked at the nearest pen and saw that someone had knocked a lynchpin loose, so I sorta flight-zoned him back in and shut it.

He was like..."Whatevs.  I didn't wantcho grain ANAHOW."  That's what I took him to have said, anyway.

There was nobody around at the time...everybody was in the arena, watching a show, while the goat-ignorant public was just milling around the concourse, petting all the cute lil' goaties.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> I will say that if more people thought through some of these issues _Beforehand_ and tried to workout viable solutions/plans, like you and I and several other breeders here, that APHIS and NONAIS would have little use to anyone, or should I say No Use at all, because they have little use now.
> 
> @ CM


It's true.


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 31, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> He was like..."Whatevs.  I didn't wantcho grain ANAHOW."  That's what I took him to have said, anyway.


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## Roll farms (Aug 31, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> > He was like..."Whatevs.  I didn't wantcho grain ANAHOW."  That's what I took him to have said, anyway.


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## Roll farms (Aug 31, 2010)

Something I haven't seen brought up yet, but I fear greatly, is goat STD's.  A bad case of Chlamydia can cause abortion storms.  We offer breeding here, but *only* to either virgin does, or does that I've sold who I know have never been w/ another buck.  

A breeder friend of mine loaned her buck out to someone she trusted a few years ago, and the abortion storm there the following year nearly wiped her out, mentally and financially.

You can't SEE that kind of problem...no matter how careful you are.  

And it WOULD be nice if everyone was honest about their goats' health....but that's just NOT how it is.  

DTA- don't trust anyone...ask for proof...and then feel the goat up anyway.
The breeder we got CL from was 'big name' and he DID have a good rep.  The CL goat came w/ BOAH (Ohio) health papers saying the herd was clean. 

Seems the breeder is out of the goat biz now.  Gee, I wonder why.


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## Ariel301 (Aug 31, 2010)

I can tell you firsthand about Chlamydial abortion storms. I had one this spring and it was horrible. I kept going out to feed in the morning and finding dead kids with the whole doe herd whimpering around them and pawing them. 

I don't know how we got it, as we used our own buck and our girls had not left the property, unless it was spread by flies...but it is something to be VERY careful about. My does had no warning symptoms at all, just produced dead, deformed kids on their due date and then acted really sick for a week or two after. 

Not to dissuade you completely from stud service, just be careful and know the risks. I've got a buck here now for stud service from a nearby farm myself. I know that the farm does have CL positive does, but they manage them carefully to avoid spreading it, and both the buck and my does are vaccinated and have negative tests, plus negative CAE tests and I know the owner well enough to trust her buck.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 1, 2010)

Ariel301 said:
			
		

> I can tell you firsthand about Chlamydial abortion storms. I had one this spring and it was horrible. I kept going out to feed in the morning and finding dead kids with the whole doe herd whimpering around them and pawing them.






			
				Ariel said:
			
		

> I don't know how we got it, as we used our own buck and our girls had not left the property, unless it was spread by flies...


Birds.  

There are several strains of chlamydia, but my understanding is that the one which is usually responsible for abortions in goats is Chlamydia psittaci...psittacines being a type of bird...parrots, actually.  

In any case, C. psittaci is pretty widespread in wild birds..  I suppose all it takes is for a bird to come along and infect one of the goats..  I dunno how they do that, exactly, but I have read that c. psittaci+ birds can apparently be asymptomatic carriers who shed it intermittantly...somehow.

But however the transmission actually occurs, the bird gives it to the bred goat, the goat aborts, and then the other goats come into contact with the POC from that abortion...and get infected...then they abort...so on, so forth.

I've never actually seen chlamydia mentioned as a true STD in goats..  In fact, what I've read actually suggests that a case of chlamydia in a buck generally results in his sterility...and your probably not really gonna see many abortion storms if your buck doesn't work anyway.

Rambling...sorry...if you're wondering, though, how chlamydia could possibly have made it to your place, look to the sky.


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## MysticScorpio82 (Sep 1, 2010)

Out of curiosity, if there are so many dangers to using a stud outside your herd or if you don't / can't have a buck yourself, why not use Artificial Insemination?  

I have been reading all these posts and now I am scared to death to have a stud, and I really don't want a buck around (I only have 2 acres to work with, not enough room for a second barn to ensure my dairy won't be "bucky").  So I was thinking perhaps I will use AI methods, what would be the pros and cons of this?  I was looking at prices and it seems less expensive.  Are they still at risk of spreading the same diseases as if I were to find a stud?

This is where I was looking: http://superiorsemenworks.com/xcart/home.php?cat=6


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## freemotion (Sep 1, 2010)

MysticScorpio82 said:
			
		

> I have been reading all these posts and now I am scared to death to have a stud, and I really don't want a buck around (I only have 2 acres to work with, not enough room for a second barn to ensure my dairy won't be "bucky").


Take a breath, MS, the world is not as scary as it might appear on this forum at times!  Millions of goats are bred each year and actually survive the process!   (Not laughing at you....really.  Laughing at....where this thread ended up.)


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## savingdogs (Sep 2, 2010)

I was actually thinking AI sounded darned good................


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## Shiloh Acres (Sep 2, 2010)

Now now ... I heard AI could kill a doe. 

Not sayin' it's true. Just sayin' I heard it.


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## helmstead (Sep 2, 2010)

I agree with CM on the chlamydia, it is environmental.  ANY time you have an abortion, you should have a culture run on the doe and a sample of the afterbirth.  In most cases, chlamydia is treatable and abortions can be prevented.

FWIW, I was of the understanding that chlamydial abortions produce normal but premature kids?  I have never dealt with chlamydia, but this is what I had understood.  

AI...the main reason it's not widely used on goats yet is that there aren't many producers who are any good at it, nor are there many producers willing to pay a good repro specialist.  As far as it killing does, LOL...doubt that.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Sep 2, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> MysticScorpio82 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yep MS.... dont let all this flamflam scare you off. there area million ways for your goat to die - but most likely they wont. after reading all this you'd think they were talking about rocket science and not farm animals! 

some folks do AI but its NOT a guarantee (but neither is natural breeding, i guess). depending on where you are it may be expensive or just hard to find someone. we live pretty far out and its hard to find a livestock vet for goats around here. 

call around to your local breeders. talk to the folks you got your goats from and see if they have recommendation.  call your local vets also - they probably know who's running a good operation. and dont rule our your local 4H club as a resource. 

if you are new to goats (especially full sized ones) you probably do not want a buck unless there are no other good options and/or you want this to be a business. 

bucks are generally housed separately from does - especially for dairy goats, they are big, and any intact male can be dangerous and hard to handle. and they stink horribly especially in rut. like, you have to bleach your clothes to get the stink out. if you only have a few animals the costs and extra work with having a buck may not be worth it. 

Freemotion uses bucklings (younger guys) and then sells them after they are um.. "done with their chores." which i always thought was a good option. 

do you research and do what is best for you.


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## glenolam (Sep 2, 2010)

If this is off topic, let me know and I'll start a new thread...

Since now we're talking about bucklings, not full sized bucks, if you breed a 'soon to be full sized' buckling to a full sized adult dwarf goat, does that solve the problem of a dwarf doe giving birth to a kid that's too big for her?  Or does it not matter because the buckling has genes that say to produce XX size kid, not xx sized.  Get my question?


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 2, 2010)

glenolam said:
			
		

> If this is off topic, let me know and I'll start a new thread...
> 
> Since now we're talking about bucklings, not full sized bucks, if you breed a 'soon to be full sized' buckling to a full sized adult dwarf goat, does that solve the problem of a dwarf doe giving birth to a kid that's too big for her?  Or does it not matter because the buckling has genes that say to produce XX size kid, not xx sized.  Get my question?


It's the potential size of the buckling you have to worry about, not the current size.  The sperm of a 6 month old Boer will produce the same size offspring as a 2 year old Boer.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> AI...the main reason it's not widely used on goats yet is that there aren't many producers who are any good at it, nor are there many producers willing to pay a good repro specialist.  As far as it killing does, LOL...doubt that.


Yep..

You could take the world's best goat repro specialist and put them up next to the ugliest, most poorly conformed, wormiest, funkiest buck in the world...and the repro specialist is but a rank amateur in comparison.


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## savingdogs (Sep 2, 2010)

Well so far there is zip on CL and the breeder doesn't have anything not related or too large. 

I just got hit with some financial woes so might have to postpone breeding anyways, unless my hubby can pull a rabbit out of a hat somehow with our finances. Anything that costs much is out of the question at the moment certainly. 
By next year I could have lab tests done and go with paper in hand to shop for a buck. At this rate I'll be feeding these goats a long time before I see any milk, it looks like, and I'll have to make soap with goats milk from a can. 
At least they are clearing our property........


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## ohiofarmgirl (Sep 2, 2010)

> At least they are clearing our property........


yay! then count it a success!

our gals got rid of most of the poison ivy that was plaguing us. everybody works - even if its eating weeds


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## MysticScorpio82 (Sep 2, 2010)

ohiofarmgirl said:
			
		

> freemotion said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol Yes I am new to goats.  I don't even have my herd yet, I just want to be prepared and have everything planned out before I get them.  I was just planning on just paying a stud fee when the time came, but it just sounds like there are so many people out there with plague-bearring animals, that I am a tad nervous.  

How expenses are the vet fees (one average) to get the health tests done to make sure that my animals are disease-free before going to a breed and after?  I just keep picturing thousands of dollars just to get them bred for milk  Yes I would like them registered, but only for the purpose of selling the kids easier; not for showing (unless I change my mind later).


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## ksalvagno (Sep 2, 2010)

It really depends on your area and what tests would be required. If all they want is a vet to look them over, then the cost would be a vet visit and whatever they charge to give you a health paper. My alpaca vet charges $32 for a farm visit and $5 for the health paper. If need other tests like CAE, CL, Johnes, Brucellosis, TB, etc then you are looking at a blood draw or a couple different blood draws and then different costs for the different tests. The TB test, the vet has to come back out a couple days later and look at the spot where they injected the stuff so you are looking at a second farm call charge for TB.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Sep 2, 2010)

> it just sounds like there are so many people out there with plague-bearring animals, that I am a tad nervous.


HA! you would think! but nah.  i guess the rest of us are happily goating right along. i think most folks post when they have problems instead of "hey look at my goat!"

but... hey look at my goat!

http://adventuresinthegoodland.blogspot.com/2010/09/nibbles-being-cute.html

you'll do just fine. common sense and research go a LONG way. 

we save tons of money with our milkers so it totally works out for us. if you dont have your gal picked out yet, you might want to consider getting a goat in milk - that way you wont have to feed out a doeling and hope she's right for you. 

its actually really normal to "test milk" a doe before you buy her. just make arrangements to show up at milking time and give it a whirl. most folks will spend time to teach you - and then you'll know immediately what will work for you. for instance, its easier for my husband to milk my saanen (big ol' white goat) but its easier for me to milk the la mancha. so its not "the best" goat - its "the best goat for you."


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## Shiloh Acres (Sep 2, 2010)

Shiloh Acres said:
			
		

> Now now ... I heard AI could kill a doe.
> 
> Not sayin' it's true. Just sayin' I heard it.


I hope no one took me seriously here. 


I guess I'm not the best at joking around in text. I DID hear that though. But I'm certainly not meaning to pass it along as info.


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## Ariel301 (Sep 2, 2010)

You know, I was just thinking it is kind of funny that it could be so difficult to get stud service for goats...but with horses and dogs, it is the norm. Most people who want to breed their mare or female dog do not go buy a stallion or stud dog for the purpose, they go to a breeder for service. Good places will ask for health papers on those animals, and you should be able to see them on the male as well, most horse and dog breeders don't keep a "closed herd" that I have heard of....why is it so different with goats? Do they just have more diseases to spread to each other than other animals? I'm not too familiar with what dogs get, but I know there's a goodly number of communicable diseases in horses and even some STDs, not to mention the danger of a crazy stallion biting or kicking and hurting the mare (I've seen mares with huge chunks taken out of their neck from a biting stallion! In my mind, that doesn't need to be a stallion anymore!). 

My issue here with finding a buck to breed to (should I need one other than my own) is usually not so much that none are available for stud service, but that there are none of quality or my chosen breed within a reasonable drive...at least until my neighbor down the way got her herd, she brought in some good ones, and offered me free use of any of her bucks. Other than that option now available, it used to be more convenient for me to buy a new buck than to go to say, Phoenix or even Colorado for stud service, and then need to go back to get the girls re-bred if it doesn't take...

Most people here just keep a mixed group of scrub goats that are no good for anything but lawn mowing, or grade Nubians that make maybe a quart a day of milk at most while wolfing down the same amount of feed as a 2-gallon a day milker would. I get very little interest from advertising my own purebred dairy buck for stud, except from a couple of friends who don't really care what buck they use, but mine happens to be convenient and free...and yes, I make them show me health papers and negative CAE/CL tests on their does.


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## savingdogs (Sep 3, 2010)

I see a nice Nigerian dwarf stud offered at 50 per doe within a reasonable drive although not close on CL. Is blue eyed and "throws blue eyes" is that good? 

However I also see for SALE much closer for 75 a mini-nubian/oberhasle or however you spell it buckling. Couldn't I just wait until he has serviced my girls and then resell him? When do they get the bucky smell? Even if I don't make back the full 75 later in the fall I would be spending a lot less. Is that sort of what you do, freemotion? But a buckling from your own herd?

I see other bucklings for sale as well, that is just one that had some mini nubian in it and dairy type I see on there today.


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## Shiloh Acres (Sep 3, 2010)

How old is the buckling for sale?  Probably old enough, or will be soon. 

My little buck/ling is old enough and has bred one of my does. He does pee on himself. He doesn't stink. Just his face is not as soft and the color is slightly darkened. I suspect he'll smell worse next year. 

I originally planned to buy him and use him as a buck for several years. His behavior was getting bad and then I thought I might sell him or butcher him and just do as Free does. But with a combination of techniques his manners are FINALLY improving so hopefully I can keep him after all. 

But yes, you can just buy a buckling, let him do the job, then resell him. That's one way to get the does freshened. 

Mini-Nubian x Oberhasli sounds interesting to go with your girls. If you're worried about breeding them with a full-sized buck, can you find out how big his parents are?  Mini Nubians aren't always so "mini" in the first generation or two is what I hear.  I don't have experience with them myself -- just repeating. 

Good luck whatever you decide.


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## savingdogs (Sep 3, 2010)

He is supposed to be three months old and I did wonder about the size myself, but I guess I was running with the thought that perhaps we should purhase a buck and resell a month or so later.


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## savingdogs (Sep 6, 2010)

Now we are looking to buy a 3-year-old Nigerian dwarf buck. We hope to re-sell him in a month or two when he has done his business here. 
Thank you for all the imput!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 6, 2010)

This has been a FANTASTIC thread, lots of great points made.  But there is still something in the original post I'd like to see fleshed out by the experts.



			
				savingdogs said:
			
		

> My other goal is to make my money back on the breeding and disbudding costs, etc., so I'd like to choose the right buck!~
> 
> Second doe is a little larger but is double-teated so we are not as anxious to breed her to just any buck. I'd like to find something known to have good udders in their line.


There was a great discussion about the needs of a mutt/backyard herd vs a FB/registered herd but my take was that the opinions about the needs of a backyard type breeder were somewhat incongruous with this statement in the original post.  

She clearly stated that her goal IS to break even.  Considering the costs involved with keeping/breeding goats, selling mutt kids with supernumerary teats might not cut it.  This isn't a value judgement about mutt kids with 4 or 6 or whatever number of teats, BTW, I'm just questioning whether those kids would be consistent with her previously stated breeding goal.  I have a suspicion that some of the statements made about backyard/hobby/pet herds are mutually exclusive to breaking even (which is perfectly FINE if this isn't your goal...)

We're just starting out ourselves, so I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems to me that the only way to break even or make a profit is to have very clear breeding goals whether the kids are mutts or FB.  Maybe you have some crosses that are fantastic milkers and can market to people looking for goats that can MILK and don't need a fancy pedigree.  Or, maybe you have some percentage goats that can produce excellent market wethers.  Or desirable bloodlines... Either way the original post seemed like it was about improving the herd in order to prevent the goats from being a money pit or am I way off base?

OK, that's not at all phrased like a question, but there is a question in there somewhere.   This is our first year with goats (all registered but with widely differing monetary values) and I'm keenly interested to hear folks weigh in on "making money back on breeding and disbudding costs, etc." because I'm continually surprised at the (unexpected) costs of starting from scratch.  I'm having a hard time envisioning breaking even if all your does are "mutts" or registered and you're selling kids for $50 or even $75 just often enough to keep them in milk (even if everyone remains disease free).  If it is possible PLEASE let me know... 

Thoughts?  Opinions?


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## savingdogs (Sep 6, 2010)

Yes, you were correct about my original post...I don't want to spend any more money on the goats here than I have to in order to get milk....although I DO care about their health and happiness. One thing going in my favor is practically unlimited forage 3/4 of the year, so I can feed them more cheaply (despite hay being very expensive here) except for winter.

The current plan I'm going with to try to get a good sire at a cheap price is this:
I'm looking at a nigy stud today, three years old, a kid's grown up 4H project who has already fathered enough babies for them.

I plan to keep him for two months and try to sell him at the end of two months for the same price I bought him for or close to it. I already have some fencing and a little hut-building I got for free, so there is no money involved in that and I will buy him some hay and pellets but other than that no other real expenses except travel costs and labor. 

We have only had goats a year so we are going to evaluate this goat for personality before committing, as well as other factors. I studies "correct" nigy stud pictures until late last night...yawn. I was not thinking nigy until I read this thread, but now I see it will be the best choice for us with our mini nubians first time. The stud looks so cute in the picture my hubby is now talking about possibly keeping the first females if we get some, so we may be using him as a one-time stud but may "found" some of our herd, so it is nice he is 100 percent Nigerian. I don't want to throw too many breeds into the "mutt" mix or they might be too hard to market.

But yes, smithurbond, I do wonder whether it is even possible to "break even" selling mutt goats, that is part of why I was asking for advice here and how I came up with the current plan.
I realize our babies will be born early in the year, but again, that will just mean more labor on our part so we can "earn" our free stud service. We have more time than money at this point and I doubt I'm the only one.......


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## savingdogs (Sep 6, 2010)

We got him! 

I guess no more worries about finding the right buck.....I have a buck now, so I sure HOPE he is the right one!


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## ksalvagno (Sep 6, 2010)

Congratulations on getting your male. I think as far as "breaking even," you are going to have to look at cost savings when you use the milk. How much milk do you buy now. How much yogurt do you buy now. If you are going to make cheese, how much cheese do you buy now. Of course to make cheese, you do have to buy the rennet and stuff. You can make your own molds. But cost savings will have to fit into that breaking even.


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## savingdogs (Sep 6, 2010)

Good points, Karen. My other goal is making goats milk soap, I already make my own soap but I've really just been practicing for when I have my own goats milk. I have two teenage sons so we do go through the groceries. The other day I asked where two dozen eggs went in two days and the two of them and my husband had eaten them all!


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## Ariel301 (Sep 6, 2010)

savingdogs said:
			
		

> The other day I asked where two dozen eggs went in two days and the two of them and my husband had eaten them all!


Sounds like it's time for a flock of chickens to join your family lol.


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## freemotion (Sep 6, 2010)

If you are anything like me, your milk consumption will skyrocket once you have delicious, fresh, raw milk available.  We use a quart of milk a day, a quart of kefir, supply milk to my parents, turn down many requests from friends, and I make cheese once every week or two, a four-gallon batch.  I could EASILY use twice that much.  Easily.

Before goats, we used 2-4 quarts a week.  And it is just me and dh.


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## savingdogs (Sep 6, 2010)

We DO have a flock of chickens and ducks, that is where they got the two dozen eggs, Ariel. I had the darned eggs sold and they had eaten them.

We consume quite a bit of cheese and I also work at a veterinary clinic where fresh goats milk is recommended as milk replacer for puppies and kittens, they would most likely be happy to hand out my card. I haven't actually worked out that deal yet but want to see how much supply I have first. At the last veterinary clinic I worked at, a lady supplied gallons of milk to the puppy breeders for 8 dollars a gallon. So I do have plans for my goat's milk! Here in WA state you cannot sell it for human consumption legally.


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## jodief100 (Sep 7, 2010)

If you are going to try to "break even" you need to think of it like any other business.  Keep careful records, track your expenses, save money anywhere you can.  Don't buy what you don't need, if you do need it , buy it used or make it.  

You will need to have a plan in place of what to do with the buck kids.  Be prepared that they all can't be breeders or pets.


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