# What´s the point of having a LGD....



## Dage (Jul 16, 2016)

If you have to have such a dang good fence to keep The LGDs in anyways? We have 15 goats...and more on the way. We love our goats and have recently moved to a new area. We have yet to put up better fences which we are working towards, and meanwhile the neighbors dogs come over nightly and many times in the wee hours of the morning after the goats. I AM NOT sleeping well! We are  considering LGDs or GSDs for protection from the neighbor´s dogs. But if we are putting up hurricane type fencing anyway whats the real point in either? Please clue me in! We need the RIGHT kind of dogs for our situation! Not to mention getting something that is available to us where we are! And what about donkeys? or Llamas? Thank you for any help anyone can give us with this! We don´t want to just run and get a LGD or GSD and then realise we didn´t educate ourselves! Thanks again!


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## Southern by choice (Jul 16, 2016)

I can share more later but GSD's are not Livestock guardians and pose a risk to them. Nor can they take on a pack of coyotes, or dogs.
GSD's are herding dogs and do not have the temperament for livestock guardian work.
LGD's can. They are wired to do what they do.

BTW- My GSD (Shcutzhund started) is no match for any one single LGD i own. She could be their lunch. They have let her know more than once to move along and not get near the goats.


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## Dage (Jul 16, 2016)

I would very much like an Anatolian Shepherd or even a couple from what I have read, but am inexperienced in the way of LGDs. I understand that Great Pyrenees are difficult to train so The AS  would probably be my preference...but as it is am not even sure I have any LGDs as an option as I live South of the equator. Any advice would greatly be appreciated....


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## OneFineAcre (Jul 16, 2016)

Anatolians are great and if that's what you want then that's what you should get 
But Great Pyrenees  are not difficult to train


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## Southern by choice (Jul 16, 2016)

@Dage  i sent you a private message check your message box


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## Baymule (Jul 16, 2016)

I live in east Texas and it is HOT HOT HOT! I have two GP's and make sure they have plenty of fresh water and shady places to lay up in.


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## OneFineAcre (Jul 16, 2016)

South of the equator is a pretty big area
Half of the earth to be exact 
Where  abouts ?


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## babsbag (Jul 16, 2016)

I live in No. California and don't let that North part lead you astray. It get well over 100 here, sometimes 115°.  I have three LGD but one is pup and just learning the ropes. My other two are mixes of Pyr and Anatolians and one looks like a Pry and one has short hair like the Toli. Neither of them were hard to train but they definitely are independent thinkers and do what they think best.

My fence will keep my goats in. 2x4 no climb with hot wire at the top and at the goat's knee height. Neither of my dogs are incessant diggers so no bottom wire. They both respect the fence and don't try and get out.

I have LGDs for many reasons. My fence may keep goats and dogs in but not so sure it would keep coyotes and strays out. My dogs bark at vultures and other birds, thus keeping the chickens safe too. They alert me to things that are not right in the barn, like a kid being born in a water trough (literally...my male cleaned it and saved its life) and goats in labor. They protect the new kids from other does and will clean them if the mom doesn't get to it in time.  They run the goats into the barn when they sense danger and most importantly for me, they keep me safe from two legged intruders. 

I LOVE MY DOGS and will never have goats again without them.


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## NH homesteader (Jul 16, 2016)

babsbag- I don't currently have a LGD and haven't had one before,  but you just sold me! They really do a lot more than just watch the fence for predators don't they... That's family,  how amazing to see species intermingle and take care of each other like that.  My pet dogs just annoy my goats haha! That's a special creature.


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## babsbag (Jul 16, 2016)

There can be a steep learning curve. They usually don't come chicken trained but most of them learn to leave them alone. As pups they have to be watched, some may chase stock and want to play, a definite no no. My first two were perfect with the goats, but they were both pups and had each other. My puppy is a pill and at 7 months is finally "getting it". I still don't trust her early morning without supervision...the cooler it is the more she wants to play. Some say it can take two years before they are trustworthy with livestock and I say that is way too long. IMO a good LGD should be able to be with adults goats immediately and with babies when they are a year. But you need to be prepared that your LGD may not be perfect. You need to have a way to separate them if you need to not only for chasing but to keep a pup from getting hurt by aggressive stock.  

I can't imagine my barn without my dogs. I am home by myself most all week, day and night, and often I am doing chores and milking in the dark. I used to be scared to death and would plan my day so that I flat out was not outside at night. Now with the dogs I come and go with no worry. If they aren't barking I know I am safe. And if they are barking I know that nothing will get me. 

I also have about a 3 acre field that is very hilly and when the goats are out there I can't see them. I would be very worried about them grazing alone, but the dogs go with them. They will lay in the shade and watch and if the dogs sense danger they do the bark and patrol and the goats head for home, they really do understand each other. 

But also be prepared that some LGDs are barkers...all night barkers. They should not do that, but some do and some people say it is just an LGD. I had a barker and it did not make for good neighbors. Unfortunately I had to have him put down (not for barking) but his replacement does not bark unless there is a reason, my female doesn't either. But some do so just be ready to spend some time with them as pups telling them that they don't have to bark at the falling star or leaf. 

They aren't always perfect as pups, but it is soooo worth it in the end.


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## NH homesteader (Jul 16, 2016)

Unfortunately there's a farmer down the road from me who has one of those non stop barking LGDs! That would bother me mostly because I have 2 house dogs that would bark back.  That's no fun at 3 am! 

I always planned that when I have one (probably a ways off as my older dog is fairly dog aggressive and I'm shocked he ever accepted my younger dog)  that they would pretty much stay with my goats,  so wouldn't be near my chickens really.  

My goats are pretty close to my house,  and I don't want to move them too far away until I have a guardian of some sort. We have 5 acres to play with but are right next to a state forest so there are serious amounts of coyotes and bears!


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## babsbag (Jul 16, 2016)

My LGDs are not dog aggressive and neither are my house dogs, but the two never meet in the field. The LGDs OWN the field and I am not sure what they would do if the Border Collies were to enter it, at least not if they were off lead. I brought home a pup a few months ago and they didn't eat her so maybe they would be ok but the house dogs have no reason to be with the goats and we just keep it that way.


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## Ferguson K (Jul 17, 2016)

We have LGDs, farm dogs, house dogs, and Titan. At 9 months old I do not trust my puppies alone with small kids. They're just to playful still. They still chase chickens, too. Haven't killed any in a while, but, they do chase them when they "intrude" on the wrong pasture. We have coyote BAD here, they're hybrids, and I sleep much better knowing they're out there with my girls. 

If there's something that requires brute strength and backup, well, I'd hate to meet it. These big pups protect their livestock well.

We have two adults on our other property that guard the chickens. I say guard loosely as they are not bonded to them like the girls are to my goats. 

Earlier today I was walking my fenceline and one of the does started screaming at the top of her lungs. Both dogs sprang into action and beat me there. Turns out the doe tried to go through a section of fence and got stuck. She contributed to lots of chaos! Connie and Maddie were very upset and confused about the whole thing, but didn't leave her side until we got there with the tools to free her. They promptly went back to their shade tree and took a nap. They move freely through out the property and are most often found posted along the driveway where all the action happens. Quiet unless there's something crossing the road or pipeline (their favorite place to watch), and ever watchful. They let us know when something is wrong (like when we had a sick pig), and are always ready for a good petting.

Would I still back them up if I needed to? Most definitely. 

We see less predators with those girls on the job.


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## Ferguson K (Jul 17, 2016)

I might add that there's nothing more intimidating than nearly 200lbs of dog running up to you at full speed to make you rethink stealing something. That's just one dog.


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## babsbag (Jul 17, 2016)

Sometimes when I am watching the goats Francis will be running them in from the back field and I just stand there in the path and pray that he veers off or at least slows down before launching himself on me for some lovin'. Having him come at me mad would be very intimidating to say the least.


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## NH homesteader (Jul 17, 2016)

My dog who is dog aggressive loves the goats.  Can't say he would protect them but he does love being with them.  My other dog is an Alano Español and is bred for hog hunting. I keep her away from them for fears that her "take down"  instinct kicks in.  She'd never hurt them just scare the crap out of them! 

We have had a bear with 3 cubs on our property for the past few weeks.  It even managed to open  our grain shed.  I sure would feel better if we had a protector out there!


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## Coffeybean (Jul 17, 2016)

babsbag said:


> There can be a steep learning curve. They usually don't come chicken trained but most of them learn to leave them alone. As pups they have to be watched, some may chase stock and want to play, a definite no no. My first two were perfect with the goats, but they were both pups and had each other. My puppy is a pill and at 7 months is finally "getting it". I still don't trust her early morning without supervision...the cooler it is the more she wants to play. Some say it can take two years before they are trustworthy with livestock and I say that is way too long. IMO a good LGD should be able to be with adults goats immediately and with babies when they are a year. But you need to be prepared that your LGD may not be perfect. You need to have a way to separate them if you need to not only for chasing but to keep a pup from getting hurt by aggressive stock.
> 
> I can't imagine my barn without my dogs. I am home by myself most all week, day and night, and often I am doing chores and milking in the dark. I used to be scared to death and would plan my day so that I flat out was not outside at night. Now with the dogs I come and go with no worry. If they aren't barking I know I am safe. And if they are barking I know that nothing will get me.
> 
> ...


I enjoyed your post. I have some lgd and they are about a year old. I have them penned in a dog run unless they are out with me. I can't get them over the chicken killing thing. They do well with the other livestock. My goats don't like them though and some of the more aggressive does still go after the dogs (they just turned a year old). 
I have been reading all I can on how to train them but I feel I am still lacking. Also we live on a major hwy. I found the dogs literally laying on the yellow line protecting us. So that is also why I had them penned. Should I not pen them now since they are older? What should I do about the chickens? Any help would be great. Mine bark all night btw but we have LOTS of coyotes in the area and they will come to the front door in daylight. Since the dogs came the coyotes stay away.

Thanks Jenn


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## babsbag (Jul 17, 2016)

That hwy would have me very worried. Can you put up an electric fence on the road to keep them off? Would hate to have them get hit.  My dogs will stay inside just a wire as they have learned that they hurt. Sometimes I put a wire u  if we are moving fences and they won't challenge even one strand. But if you could put 5 or 6 strands of the tape n the road it might keep them off the road.

As far as the chickens, it took my male 'til about 18 months and then he just stopped. It was almost always in the evenings when it was cool and he was playful. If they chase when you are out there you might try a long lead and see if a sharp NO and a tug will stop them. I know that others will frown at this, but I used an e-Collar. But I can't say that it worked or if he grew up so I hate to suggest one.  However, new birds would have to be put in a dog kennel in the field for a few days before I let them integrate into the flock, the dogs know which birds are theirs and won't accept others. 

Personally I hate to see them penned, they need to be with their charges and the goats need to learn to trust them. I won't say that my dogs are particularly bonded to their flock, but they do their job so that is ok. With chickens I think that it is a matter or time and a lot of correction on your part. Do they respond to a NO when you are out with them? But I understand not wanting to lose the birds.

Not sure I have any really good advice on how to break the chicken fetish but I don't think keeping them penned will help much on that front.


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## Mini Horses (Jul 17, 2016)

Pen the chickens?


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## babsbag (Jul 17, 2016)

Now that I don't have a chicken killer any more I moved all but 5 of the chickens out of goat pen so it is no longer an issue, for the most part.  My puppy did kill two of those and the rooster moved out on his own and the other hens are broody elsewhere. My puppy will probably never learn to leave chickens alone as she is not with them now at all. Technically I can't have chickens with the goats because of the dairy but I did like them together for fly control. That was the primary reason I got chickens in the first place.


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## Dage (Jul 18, 2016)

babsbag said:


> My LGDs are not dog aggressive and neither are my house dogs, but the two never meet in the field. The LGDs OWN the field and I am not sure what they would do if the Border Collies were to enter it, at least not if they were off lead. I brought home a pup a few months ago and they didn't eat her so maybe they would be ok but the house dogs have no reason to be with the goats and we just keep it that way.


Am curious which LGD breed you chose for your herd?


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## NH homesteader (Jul 18, 2016)

Could have used an LGD last night.  A bear broke into my feed shed and took an entire bag of chicken feed and a bag of sweet feed.  Spilled another bag of grain all over the ground.  Wish there was someone out there to bark and get my attention, if not scare if off itself!


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## Southern by choice (Jul 18, 2016)

A Livestock Guardian Dog is THE MOST VALUABLE ASSET on your farm!

Go to a GOOD breeder. If you can find one that has the actual ability to evaluate that is best.

I strongly recommend teams.


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## NH homesteader (Jul 18, 2016)

I'm sold! Haha I will have one someday but not yet in the budget for a good quality dog. For now,  copious use of electricity.  We had set up barbed wire after the first time the bear got into  the shed.  Apparently it needs a good zap instead!


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## babsbag (Jul 18, 2016)

@NH homesteader, get two LGDs, they work so much better in teams and I really liked having two puppies at once, but not necessarily litter mates. That can work, but can also have its own set of challenges and not something I suggest for the first time LGD owner unless a person is very well versed in training dogs. My BCs are sisters and joined at the hip. Their names are Goodness and Mercy and they are inseparable; not always a trait you want in an LGD. But there are a lot of sibling pairs that work well too. 

@Dage  My LGDs are mixed breeds, but all LGD breeds. My oldest female is Anatolian/Ovcharka/ Pyrenees, and Akbash. My male 3/4 Pyr and 1/4 Toli.  My puppy is Anatolian/Ovcharka/Akbash, and Maremma; she is a half sister to my female, but I tell people "not the good half". She has been a challenge.


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## babsbag (Jul 18, 2016)

For you @NH homesteader ...not my bear or dog or video but what a good dog.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=848178431959292


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## NH homesteader (Jul 18, 2016)

@babsbag I am very well versed in dog training and behavior modification but not LGDs! I'm afraidit will take some practice for me to let them do their job because I'm used to heavily training  dogs for other things. But I research things obsessively before I jump in so I'll get there! 

Are Maremmas more challenging? I've just heard fair amount of people who have difficulty with them,  and I don't know if that's a breed thing or it's just random.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 18, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> I'm afraidit will take some practice for me to let them do their job because I'm used to heavily training dogs for other things.



If you practice the same methods on a LGD you will not only confuse the dog but frustrate it as well.
You MUST view them as a PARTNER. They do something you cannot, you do things they cannot. RESPECT is critical. 
They are smarter than you, know their job better then you.


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## NH homesteader (Jul 18, 2016)

I know that's why I said that.  I'm aware that I need to have a different approach


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## babsbag (Jul 18, 2016)

I can't really speak to the personality of purebred Maremmas so I'm not sure how to answer that. If I had to choose one breed I would choose the Anatolian but not based on temperament but based on coat, I like the short hair. I would bet that the Pyr is the most common and has the reputation for being a barker and a roamer. Again, not sure if that is really a trait or just that there are so many of them that you hear about it more often. I am a firm believer in a hot wire to stop the roaming. 

IMO the perfect dog is really the cross between the Pyr and the Toli.


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## NH homesteader (Jul 18, 2016)

Ah yes we have a roaming pyr in the neighborhood.  Unfortunately it's roamed enough to have developed a taste for chasing animals (deer mostly,  but my husband said it was after the pot belly pig we used to have one day).  It also barks all night long.  Ugh! Short hair is good. I don't even want a long hair indoor dog.  Grooming is not my idea of a good time!


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## Latestarter (Jul 18, 2016)

Even though toli's are short hair, they STILL shed PILES of hair/fur! and I have to agree (based on my very limited experience in general with LGD's specifically) that a Pyr/Toli cross is about the ideal... Of course I own one, so I may be biased.


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## Mike CHS (Jul 18, 2016)

We can get enough hair from our Aussie every week to make another dog.  Glad she only weighs 50 pounds.  The Border Collie sheds but nothing like the Aussie.


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## Baymule (Jul 18, 2016)

I have a Pyr/Maremma cross that is one fine dog. He would much rather stay in the yard, but willing goes to work when play time is over. He seldom barks, doesn't try to run off, is great with the chickens and sheep, and LOVES our grand daughters. He'll be 2 in November. It didn't happen overnight. He chased chickens-LOTS of time spent. If I couldn't be out there with him, the chickens stayed penned up. He was a year old when we got the sheep and he wanted to maul them. Again, LOTS of time spent. And most importantly, LOTS of time spent on BYH, reading, reading and reading some more.


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## babsbag (Jul 18, 2016)

My first three LGDs were perfect with livestock from the moment I got them...chickens aren't livestock, right?  My puppy is giving me a reality check.


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## Baymule (Jul 18, 2016)

@babsbag you gotta admit, chickens are the ultimate squeaky toy. When they stop moving, just get another! You will just have to keep them separate until she grows up a little more. Paris was an avowed chicken killer when I got her and Trip wanted to chase them, not too long ago. Your Mia will make a fine dog, obviously she is smart enough to know it is wrong and not do it when you are watching. So, don't give her the opportunity unless you are outside with her to correct her. It's going to take awhile......


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## Ferguson K (Jul 18, 2016)

They also make hearty cuddle buddies, and are very sneaky.




 

Our pups listen when we talk to them. They respect us and we them. We were in the pasture hanging out with the goats and they decided we needed attention. We got it wether we wanted it or not. LOL



 

One day you will know the love. Just don't expect a puppy to take on a bear, especially alone.


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## NH homesteader (Jul 18, 2016)

I would never expect a puppy to take on a bear.  Nor would I "expect"  that from an adult dog.  But I know they would let me know so that I can be their backup.  My house dogs would do that if they knew it was there but they're sleeping on the couch when all this stuff happens! Haha! Plus most bears will take off if there is a dog barking at them anyway.


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## babsbag (Jul 19, 2016)

We have bears here, neighbor 1/8 mile away had one drinking from his pond. Thankfully the majority of my property is fenced and the dogs are with the goats in that Fort Knox fenced area and I think the barking just keeps many pests away. Too much trouble when there are other places to visit and no dogs. Thankfully they haven't decided to visit my beehives...bees and bears are not a good mix. 

Mia will grow up someday. Most of my chickens stay in their chicken yard where they belong. I only had the 5 that were still in the barn and now none. I have rogue chickens too and they just roost in trees and brood wherever they please. If they stay out of the goat field they will be ok but since Mia isn't ever with the chickens I wonder if she will ever acclimate to them. My older dogs used to have the chickens in goat field but the dairy plans made me move them to their own field.

Mia spent most of the day in with the goats. I put her in the field at about 9:00 and actually forgot about her until 3:00. I have 3 fairly small kids in that field and I was a little worried about what I was going to find. As I walked up to the barn I could see her laying in the barn with a lot of goats and one of the small kids was right next to her and he was doing a strange stretching head roll thing and my heart sunk.   I just knew she had been using him for a chew toy. Well she came to greet me and he didn't get up so I went into the pen to check on him and he was just fine, not even slobbered on.  He was just being a goat and laying next to Mia was just to make me nervous.  There is hope for her yet.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 19, 2016)

There is always hope!  I think she's gonna be fine.


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## Baymule (Jul 19, 2016)

YAY Mia!!!!!


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## Ridgetop (Jun 4, 2018)

Most of the time the threat posed by LGDs to predators is enough.  Most predators know that if they are injured they could die.  When the predator refuses to leave you want to have LGDs to go after them.  I prefer my LGDs to chase off the predators without tangling with them and getting injured.  1 or 2 LGDs couldn't take down a cougar or bear but my hope is that they scare it off before it take any of my livestock.  A friend who breeds Anatolians in TX had 2 14 month old and 3 10 month old Anatolians in one enclosure when a large cougar came in.  The cougar had been taking goats, sheep, and hogs for months in the area and decided to come in after the young dogs.  The 5 puppies killed the cougar but it was a bad fight and several were badly injured.  They all recovered though it took some time for one of them.

Dage:  If you have mostly dog or coyote predators, a llama might be a good choice.  Donkeys are also good choices.  If you have cougar, or any of the big cats, bears, or wolves, then LGDs are the only choice.  Although I have seen pix of a mule attacking a cougar and killing it.  Where exactly do you live?


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## greybeard (Jun 4, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> Where exactly do you live?



2 year old thread and Dage has not posted in nearly 16 months...


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## Ridgetop (Jun 4, 2018)

Thanks, I need to check thread dates I guess.


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