# Baby buck, something's not right - ideas?



## Our7Wonders (Mar 17, 2011)

My little buckling that we bought 10 days ago seems off.  He's pooping and peeing.  He drinks his bottles, though he's now leaving an ounce or two instead of drinking it all like he was.  I started out with 4 bottles of 8oz and then recently moved him to 3 bottles at 12 oz.  Doesn't seem to go at it as enthusiastically as he once was.  

It's cold at night, but not super cold.  We're reaching into the forties during the daytime.  He shivers alot - but not all the time.  I didn't think much of it at first because he seemed rather scared and timid when we first got him - I thought he was trembling (as opposed to shivering).  He doesn't do it always, but often enough that it's a concern.  He is VERY lanky -  he is tall and had very long legs.  Seemed like his legs were too long for his little body.  He's always seemed a little hunched to me - being new to goats I didn't pick up on it at first, thought it was his stance due to the super long legs.  Now that I have my two bucklings that were born here in with him I notice how less energetic he is than them.  The other two are full of energy - running, skipping, and jumping like crazy.  The little guy in question will have spurts of energy, but nothing like the other two.

He nibbles at hay, a little.  Especially when the other two are nibbling.  I have water out for them, though I have yet to see any of them drink any.  I was told mom was given BoSe, but they are an organic dairy and do not vaccinate.  This hasn't been a problem in the past for them.  He doesn't seem sickly, at least not yet, just, I dunno, maybe un-thrifty?   I put in a call to ask them what they thought about his symptoms - he's had them since his arrival here, so whatever his issue is it was with him before we got him.  If it matters, he was a singleton.  He was dam raised for the first 4 days, then given a bottle.  We got him when he was 6 days old.  He's 16 days old today.  He was on goats milk and switched over to cow's milk (faster than I had preferred, but I didn't have goats milk yet, the switch was made over a days worth of bottles 75/25, 50/50 25/75, 100%).  Now that I have goats milk I've been gradually switching him back over the last few days.  He's at 50/50 now.  

I don't want to wait until this progresses.  Watching him with the other babies today it just hit me that something isn't right with him.  While I prefer natural treatment methods, I'm not opposed to treating him with something stronger if it's necessary.  Please let me know what you think.


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## JeanJeannie (Mar 17, 2011)

I wish I had more experience so I could help you. I am new at raising goats. Wanted to say my heart is with you and that baby. I am certain it will all be wonderful and he will be a healthy wonderful adult.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 17, 2011)

I would probably give him a BoSe shot. Also a B complex shot. I probably would also give him his CDT shot. How is his stool?


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## Roll farms (Mar 17, 2011)

I agree w/ Karen....give him 1/2 cc of Bo Se and 2cc of B vitamin.
I'd probably repeat the B vitamin 1x a day for a few days, see if he shows an improvement / better appetite.
Good luck...


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 17, 2011)

Are both given sub Q?  and where is the best place on a kid?  Can I tent the nape of the neck?


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## Roll farms (Mar 17, 2011)

I give both IM, in the butt cheek.

I know that's frowned upon by some folks here, but nobody told me not to back in the day...and it's worked ok so far for me.

I don't know where / how to tell you to give them SQ, sorry. 

edited to change IM to SQ so it makes sense....I shouldn't type half asleep...


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## Ariel301 (Mar 18, 2011)

You can give both SQ. A lot of people like to give them shots behind the elbow. I always used to give them there, but have switched to doing them in the skin on the back of the thigh, it doesn't seem to lump/hurt as much for some reason with babies. But with SQ you can do it pretty much anywhere there's enough skin to grab--though I'd be careful with the sides of the neck on dairy kids, there's a lot of blood vessels and not much muscle there.


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## rebelINny (Mar 18, 2011)

I had one like that once and I started giving him a tsp of yogurt twice a day. Within a couple days time he was doing GREAT! The Bo-se is still a good idea as well as the bit B. The vit b is awesome for getting them feeling better. Good luck.

Jamie


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## phoenixmama (Mar 18, 2011)

I agree with the yogurt...just be sure it's WHOLE FAT yogurt.  It's a shame it's hard to find, but the fat is necessary to assimilate vitamins and minerals (for people too).


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Mar 18, 2011)

My first buckling I bought had some similar issues, but the breeder I bought him from had had a rough spring. She eventually lost most if not all of her kids that year. She had had a bad load of hay and there was a nasty bug running around the farms in the area killing off all the kids and weak adults.

He was MUCH better after a couple months eating lots of fresh leaves and good hay. I think it also helped that he was now on land that had not had any animals on it before so I think it really gave his system a break. Unfortunately he died a month or so after I sold him back to her. Apparently of the same thing my bucks died from.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 18, 2011)

Ok...here's my take-away from all that:



			
				Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> My little buckling that we bought 10 days ago seems off.
> 
> He was dam raised for the first 4 days, then given a bottle.
> 
> ...


So his breeders pulled a 4-day old kid off his mama and started him on a bottle -- kicking and screaming, I'm sure -- then sold him two days later.  He's now in with goats he doesn't know, and mama's gone.  At the exact same time, he was switched from goat's milk to cow's milk. Then he had his amounts and feeding schedule changed, along with being switched back from cow's to goat's milk again.

Weaning, shipping, new herd, and dietary changes are all stressful things for a goat.  He got to experience them all -- some more than once -- in the first 16 days of his life.

I'm kinda surprised he's still kickin at all.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 18, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Ok...here's my take-away from all that:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will 2nd what she just said, that wasn't very nice of them to do to him, just to make a sale. And now you will be stuck nursing him back to health.  
I would do the yogurt, vit B and keep his bottles regular. The Bo-Se would probably also help. 
I don't understand what people think sometimes. IF you are going to sell the animal at 6 days of age, then don't put him on mom to begin with just to have to yank him off once he got used to it. I can see illness or something, but not just to make a sale.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 18, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Ok...here's my take-away from all that:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, well, yes, that's a nice summary I suppose.  Helpful?  Not really.  Was there advice in there somewhere?


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 18, 2011)

I don't have any specific advice but pulling a 4 day kid to bottle feed is not that big of a deal.  Good grief.


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## RockyToggRanch (Mar 18, 2011)

Does he have a heat source at all? When I had my two orphans last yr I gave them a rubbermaid tub with straw, a heat lamp and sweaters. He needs extra warmth. and hugs


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 18, 2011)

He has a sweater and a heat lamp, so that's covered.  And really we haven't been all that cold - lows overnight dip to freezing but we're getting highs in or near the forties.

Can anyone tell me what symptoms warrent a C&D antitoxin?  I just want to know what to watch for.  It was suggested I give him the his vaccine, however, I thought it was concensus on here NOT to vaccinate when a kid is off/weak/sick.  I'd appreciate advice on that.  

In hind sight I realize that the changes may not have been the best for him.  Having said that, I believe it's pretty common at a dairy to sell the babies that way.  Maybe just here?  I have limited goat experience, theres no doubt of that, but BOTH the dairies near me sell their babies in the same manner.  My other two bucklings situation required (due to mom's rejection) that I pull them, change them to a bottle, put them in with a baby they were unfamiliar with - likely pretty stressful on them (it was SUPER stressful on me  ) and yet they are still spunky, hungry, etc.  My gut tells me this is more than just stress induced - again, newbie and I could be way off.  Regardless, what lead us here is a moot point.  I'm looking for helpful constructive advice on how to HELP the current situation - not what shouldn't have been done.  That can be saved for when I post "What should I have done differently?"


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## phoenixmama (Mar 18, 2011)

I'm sure it was just stress.  Two out of my three were off for a few days after they were brought home...and they were a bit older.  So, it's stressful for them regardless of their age.  

Don't vaccinate if he's off...and I wouldn't until he's 2 months old.  (But that's how it's done around here...CD&T given at 2 months, then 3 months, then yearly)

CD antitoxin is for enterotoxemia.  I am under the impression this is a problem affecting the rumen and caused frequently from over-eating.  I doubt that's his problem since you say he doesn't have a strong appetite and his rumen isn't fully developed yet.  Although, I don't think a dose of CD antitoxin can hurt anything.  Symptoms of entero are:  fever, depression, loss of appetite, loud and painful screaming, diarrhea, and death.


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## RockyToggRanch (Mar 18, 2011)

The dairy near me pulls kids immediately and they get colostrum by bottle.

Sorry I can't help when it comes to vaccines :/ Good Luck ...I hope he feels better.

I would try nutridrench or molasses. JMO


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## elevan (Mar 18, 2011)

Vit B
Bo-Se
Yogurt or another source of probiotics

I might also try Red Cell for the iron / mineral boost that it gives since the kid sounds like he needs an energy boost.

Good luck to you.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 18, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> Ok, well, yes, that's a nice summary I suppose.  Helpful?  Not really.  Was there advice in there somewhere?


I was just trying to put it all together in my head to see if I could determine what the problem might be, then I kinda went... dang... thats a bunch of stressors.

I guess I could have *not* posted it, but I kinda figured if you'd already understood the scope and potential impact of the various stressors, you may have had a lead to go on...which you didn't seem to have.  

And that's being nice.  I could just as easily have said that if you'd understood the scope and impact, you wouldn't have done some of the things you did.

Vitamin B is good.  BoSe is probably good.  Probios or active-culture yogurt?  Meh...worth a shot, I guess, though I don't usually advocate it too much for non-ruminating animals.

First thing I'd do, probably is to double check the poop situation.  I'd actually be looking for a scour after all that; so much so that since he's not scouring -- which surprises me -- I'd have to wonder if he's doing anything at all..  

In other words -- maybe he's constipated.  

Symptoms fit.. Age range fits.. Onset could be explained by multiple, rapid dietary changes and/or stress..  

Worth a shot.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 18, 2011)

Thanks CM - that acutally WAS helpful.  I'm sorry to have been snippy with you.  I realize in hind sight there were things done that shouldn't have been, but regardless, it has been done and I want to fix it.  Hind sight is 20/20.  And I freely admit I do not understand the full scope and sequence, hence the reason I hang out here learning.

He hasn't been scouring.  He had a single episode a week ago when he first arrived.  He is having movments - though I haven't seen one today but I haven't been out there as much because I've been on the web searching for info.  Yesterday he passed without any issues, no straining at all.  I'm not exactly sure what they're supposed to look like, but it's not overly soft or overly hard.  No where near pellets yet, but I wouldn't imagine I'd be seeing that yet anyway.  His aren't much different in consistancy than the other two bucklings have been (who are still on mama milk).  Different color though - there's is more orangish, his is more yellowish.  I'll specifically look for that the next time so that I know for sure.

My vet is out all afternoon, I'm going to keep trying.  He didn't want to give me BoSe for my pregnant does but said he does give it to babies - hopefully I can get him to part with a dose once I reach him.

FWIW, while his switch from goats milk to cows milk was faster than I'd have liked it was done simply because I didn' have any goats milk.  The re-introduction of goats milk has been slow - only an ounce per bottle.  So he's up to 50/50 goats/cow, but it took a couple days to get there.  Since I'm now milking my dumb goat that rejected her babies I now have goats milk and *thought* it would be healthier to feed him fresh goats milk over the pasteurized, homgenized dead stuff from the store, hence the switch back.

Except for BoSe I have all the other suggested items on hand, I appreciate everyone's thoughts on the matter.


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