# Goat Weak Legs, Not Off Feed



## abraeri (Jan 27, 2021)

So I need some thoughts as I can't figure out what is wrong with my goat. She is pregnant and due Feb 20th. She looks big, bigger than last year when she gave birth to two kids, and I wouldn't be surprised if she had triplets.

About a week ago, I noticed that she was dragging/had a stiff back right leg and her front right leg would also stumble a little sometimes. She is fed about a cup of grain twice a day, free choice mineral, bermuda hay, and I was giving alfalfa pellets once a day. Good appetite, normal temp, eyelids look good. I considered the possibility of meningeal worm since she has been itchy for a month or so previously. The main reason for me to discount this is that we have a camera in our barn and noticed that the night previous to me noticing she was dragging her foot, she jumped off the milk stand and on the camera you can see that she is dragging her foot after that (which I did not see until the next morning). Also we have plenty of coyotes in our vicinity and haven't seen any deer around for a while.

I stopped putting her on the milkstand so it wouldn't get worse, started feeding alfalfa pellets twice a day in hopes that could remedy the situation and gave her some Replemin as well. I didn't think it was getting better or worse, but today morning she stumbled, fell down, and couldn't get up. When she walks she is significantly slower than yesterday.

If injury: what can I do to help her recover? I think if it was an injury, her weight is preventing form recovering and probably putting more strain on her feet.

I also considered the possibility of toxemia. However she hasn't lost any appetite and still gobbles down everything I give her. Is toxemia still possible? What should I do to get her back on her feet if this is the case?

Thanks in advance


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## abraeri (Jan 27, 2021)

Update: She got back up, with difficulty but by herself when I went down again. I took her outside and she walked very slowly. She is not lifting either foot on her right side off the ground properly, which is why she is stumbling. Her left side is unaffected. I've given her some molasses water, more alfalfa, some grain, and 2 tums.


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## messybun (Jan 27, 2021)

Only one side is affected? Could she have had a stroke?


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## messybun (Jan 27, 2021)

Are her legs stiff if you try to bend them? Any swelling in the joints? Hot to the touch? What’s her temperature?


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## messybun (Jan 27, 2021)

Is there any way you could get her on steroids? It might help with the swelling, and should help the babies develop faster if she goes into labor pre-term. Definitely something to ask the vet about because I’m no expert and it could do more harm than good. Just a thought.


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## abraeri (Jan 27, 2021)

messybun said:


> Only one side is affected? Could she have had a stroke?


Yes only one side... she is lifting her feet on the other side just fine. I don't see any issues on her face; no droopy eyes or mouth. 



messybun said:


> Are her legs stiff if you try to bend them? Any swelling in the joints? Hot to the touch? What’s her temperature?



Legs are not stiff although if I bend them they sometimes make a sound like cracking knuckles. Joints are not visibly swollen or hot to the touch. Last I checked her temp was 102ish... will have to check again next time I go down to the barn.



messybun said:


> Is there any way you could get her on steroids? It might help with the swelling, and should help the babies develop faster if she goes into labor pre-term. Definitely something to ask the vet about because I’m no expert and it could do more harm than good. Just a thought.



I did not know this was an option; vet suggested it could be toxemia or meningeal and said to give panacur if we wanted to treat for meningeal. I hesitated to give her so much wormer though because she's pregnant and due so soon... last year her kidding was a little difficult too. Her being pregnant complicates things; otherwise I would've just treated for meningeal...


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## messybun (Jan 27, 2021)

abraeri said:


> Yes only one side... she is lifting her feet on the other side just fine. I don't see any issues on her face; no droopy eyes or mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pregnancy definitely makes it harder. And if it is parasites or infection steroids might make it worse. I just know In humans it is common practice to give steroids for possible premies and wondered if livestock was the same. It kind of sounds like a stroke to me, sometimes animals don’t show it on their face like we would. Honestly you have me stumped, but I wish you the best and hope she gets better.


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## abraeri (Jan 27, 2021)

messybun said:


> Pregnancy definitely makes it harder. And if it is parasites or infection steroids might make it worse. I just know In humans it is common practice to give steroids for possible premies and wondered if livestock was the same. It kind of sounds like a stroke to me, sometimes animals don’t show it on their face like we would. Honestly you have me stumped, but I wish you the best and hope she gets better.



Thank you so much for your thoughts though. I've decided to go ahead and treat for meningeal worm with Panacur. I'm also trying to get some CMPK incase it is toxemia. Hopefully she doesn't go down


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## messybun (Jan 27, 2021)

That’s a lot on the system, (I'm hoping it works for you!) make sure to keep her warm and with good food so her body has as little to deal with as possible. Good luck.


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## Alaskan (Jan 30, 2021)

Any updates?  How is she now?


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## abraeri (Jan 30, 2021)

She's not really better or worse, still dragging her 2 right feet when she walks. Other two feet are just fine, everything else she's acting perfectly happy. She can't pick herself up when she falls but with a little help can get back on her feet. It's pretty cold where we are too so her temp was a bit low but nothing significantly less than the others; we have a sheet wrapped around her as well to help us lift her, so that keeps her warm. Been giving Panacur once a day along with CMPK, b vitamins, and molasses/corn syrup water.  Can't rule out the possibility that it's just everything at once either  She's got 20 days to her due date so hopefully she can pull through by then or at least be able to get up and sit down by herself.

On a side note: is it possible to overdose on CMPK? I can't tell if its making a difference and I don't want to overdo it. She's getting 30 cc twice a day right now.


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## Alaskan (Jan 30, 2021)

abraeri said:


> She's not really better or worse


Well...  not worse is a good thing... not as good as better...  but way better than worse.


abraeri said:


> On a side note: is it possible to overdose on CMPK?


Huh...  no idea...  no info on the label?  Sometimes the place you bought it from has a link on the item buy page that let's you look at a bigger info sheet.


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## abraeri (Jan 31, 2021)

Good bad news; did ketocheck today and it seems positive (there's no comparison on the bottle). At least I know what to treat for now! I'm glad I gave her straight corn syrup tonight when I went down to see her earlier.

She still has a voracious appetite (we also got some peanut hay which everyones been happily devouring) and very bright eyes, alert overall. Toxemia makes sense because I changed their feeding routine from last year which has less alfalfa. But symptom-wise, she's only got the weakness of the legs to point to it. I'm thinking I'll give the CMPK to my two other pregnant does, just in case.


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## Alaskan (Jan 31, 2021)

abraeri said:


> Good bad news; did ketocheck today and it seems positive (there's no comparison on the bottle). At least I know what to treat for now! I'm glad I gave her straight corn syrup tonight when I went down to see her earlier.
> 
> She still has a voracious appetite (we also got some peanut hay which everyones been happily devouring) and very bright eyes, alert overall. Toxemia makes sense because I changed their feeding routine from last year which has less alfalfa. But symptom-wise, she's only got the weakness of the legs to point to it. I'm thinking I'll give the CMPK to my two other pregnant does, just in case.


Well, knowing what is going on sure helps a bunch!

 Hope things start to turn around now that you know what is going on.


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## abraeri (Jan 31, 2021)

Maybe I'm expecting too much too fast, but she doesn't seem better; maybe worse. It seems like her back right pasterns are weak and sometimes she's putting them nearly flat on the ground  (Hopefully its not laminitis?) I couldn't get a good picture. Thankfully she can still walk even though slowly (she gets real fast if I shake the grain bucket though) but she also fell a few times today; I'm worried for her kids, especially if there's triplets packed in there. We're going to see if we can hook up a sling to keep her up and not falling.

If I could just get her to kidding...


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## Alaskan (Jan 31, 2021)

abraeri said:


> Maybe I'm expecting too much too fast, but she doesn't seem better; maybe worse. It seems like her back right pasterns are weak and sometimes she's putting them nearly flat on the ground  (Hopefully its not laminitis?) I couldn't get a good picture. Thankfully she can still walk even though slowly (she gets real fast if I shake the grain bucket though) but she also fell a few times today; I'm worried for her kids, especially if there's triplets packed in there. We're going to see if we can hook up a sling to keep her up and not falling.
> 
> If I could just get her to kidding...


   What a nightmare!!!  Sorry I can't be helpful.


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## abraeri (Feb 1, 2021)

Yea... I wish I had just treated for toxemia when I saw her dragging that foot, even if she didn't show any other symptoms. I think she has multiple problems, all likely stemming from the hay switch I did late last year. Unfortunately can't fix past mistakes, just trying to figure out how to go from here.

I gave her banamine to see if perhaps she has some foot pain that is compounded by her weight and improper nutrition. Today night she was trying harder to get up by herself, and then after we had got her to her feet she did something very weird... She slowly sat down when I was drenching her with the cal mpk and then started rapidly kicking her back right foot in an involuntary way. Scared me real bad. After that she was perfectly fine. Dare I say her walking looked better. She seemed to start dragging her foot more the longer she was walking. Still very alert, very good appetite, temperature seems fine though I can't tell exactly what her temperature is due to the fact that she's wrapped in a towel (to help us get her up when she falls). 

So pretty much still confounding me


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## Alaskan (Feb 1, 2021)

Well.... 19 days to her due date...


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## Ridgetop (Feb 2, 2021)

Sounds more like a stroke with the right rear kicking spasmodically like that.  

It is definitely possible to over dose on anything too.  Dosing with different medicaments and wormers when you don't actually *know* what is really wrong can be dangerous.  

Have your goats ben tested for CAE?  The crackling in the joints sounds like it might be an arthritic condition. 

Have you tried injectable Vitamin B? 

If she is going into or has ketosis, you can certainly dose her for that.  I would consider the possibility that her system is pulling all the calcium out of it for the kids.  

I would plan to bottle feed the kids regardless.  Whether she recovers or not, bottle feeding is the safest strategy and you should get formula ready now so you are prepared.  You can keep the kids with her if you like hoping that she recovers.

Is this the doe that had trouble last year with her kids?  You might consider culling her this season.  Did you keep any doe kids of hers?  If so, have they shown any similar symptoms?  This could be some sort of condition that surfaces during late pregnancy or lactation.

Good luck with her kidding.


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## abraeri (Feb 2, 2021)

Ok... anything we can do for a stroke?



Ridgetop said:


> It is definitely possible to over dose on anything too. Dosing with different medicaments and wormers when you don't actually *know* what is really wrong can be dangerous.



This is why I waited to worm for meningeal... however our vet said we should treat and it had been a week, she wasn't getting better so we went with it.


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## abraeri (Feb 2, 2021)

Ridgetop said:


> Have your goats ben tested for CAE? The crackling in the joints sounds like it might be an arthritic condition.


Yes they have been tested and are negative.



Ridgetop said:


> Have you tried injectable Vitamin B?


We have not given injectable, but have been giving her crushed up human super b-complex.



Ridgetop said:


> If she is going into or has ketosis, you can certainly dose her for that. I would consider the possibility that her system is pulling all the calcium out of it for the kids.


I have been giving her 'magic' at 20 cc twice a day for the past few days. I might give a higher amount today. Do you know if too much cal mpk can be a problem? I could be sure she is calcium deficient but she scared me when she did that spazzing right as I was giving her the cal mpk.



Ridgetop said:


> I would plan to bottle feed the kids regardless. Whether she recovers or not, bottle feeding is the safest strategy and you should get formula ready now so you are prepared. You can keep the kids with her if you like hoping that she recovers.


We have frozen colostrum and milk from last year. Our other does won't be kidding until a month later. Should we buy formula or is the frozen milk better?

She did have a bit of a difficult kidding last year due to having one large kid who had to be pulled out. However, this difficulty she is having now, if toxemia, is a lot my fault for not keeping up with her nutritional needs. On the other hand she hasn't been the most energetic goat and I have been considering not wanting her genes in my herd. She hasn't had a doe kid so not sure.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 2, 2021)

Frozen colostrum and milk is fine.

No treatment for a stroke or nerve damage except time to allow the possible recovery of faculties.  I would be on the spot to assist with her kidding and watch closely since if she is partially paralyzed on one side, she might need help from you pulling the kids.  I would bottle feed the kids.  Try to milk her on the stand.  Maybe build a ramp for her?  See if she can milk ok - let down working etc.  Dry her up sooner than normal, and see if she recovers over the next 6 months.  I would not breed her again since she could suffer another stroke. 

*Here is an article I found on line about meningeal worms.  The symptoms seem similar.  **M-worm: A nightmare for goat, sheep, and camelid owners - The Thrifty Homesteader*

If she has meningeal worms, the recovery is not good unless you treated her immediately with high doses of Fenbendazole, Ivermectin, etc.  110-20% only.
If she has meningeal worms and recovers, she may have received permanent damage to her spine and brain that will not recover. 

If it were me, I would pull the kids as soon as they are born, heat treat the colostrum, pasteurize their milk, and bottle feed.  This will have the added benefit of allowing the doe to recover as much as she possibly can without the stress of lactation.  If the doe remains affected, put her down and have a necropsy to find out the cause.  If you have M-worms on the property, you will want to know.

I hope this doesn't sound harsh or cruel.  If she is not going to recover, putting her down and pinpointing the cause would be the best thing for her and for you and your herd.

Here is another interview by the same author with a vet about this worm.  This article might help you decide what to do.
Deer Worm in Goats​01.27.2021 by thriftyhomesteader // Leave a Comment
Episode 34​For The Love Of Goats​"Tatiana L. Stanton 31:42
I know, my experience has been with it—I had some goats on that study—is that, while they can make it through one pregnancy, the damage will repeat itself. And they used to think, “Oh, they’ve been infected with deer worm again.” But what it really is, is that they have nerve damage. And even though you’ve treated them for them, and they’re doing well, it may be the next breeding season when the buck mounts them, or hey, someone beat them up, you know. It aggravates that nerve damage. And then, of course, being pregnant again. So what I’ve found is, usually, the animals I have that recover enough to be breeding-sound, but are still slightly off, that usually they’ll get worse and worse in succeeding pregnancies. And so they usually won’t live out as long a life, you know. I will usually cull them at some point rather than having them live out a really, really long life. You know, so you have to play it by ear and know that there was that nerve damage there, and you’ve masked it, and maybe they’ll fully recover, but maybe they won’t.
Deborah Niemann 32:42
That’s really good to know, because the one I had was young when she got it, and the one who recovered. But, if you have an animal that, you know, like, is a finished champion, or just very valuable to you for some reason, you know, she’s only four or five years old, you should realize that your time for breeding her may be shorter than normal. So, if you wanted to do that awesome breeding with her and your favorite buck, do it this year, because next year might not be so good."


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## abraeri (Feb 2, 2021)

Thank you very much for all the advice. If she doesn't recover / seems to have some kind of permanent damage, we definitely won't be breeding her again. Counting days to due date; just need her to stay strong.


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## abraeri (Feb 4, 2021)

Well for an update... she's still about that same I'd say. Her udders are filling a bit. And she does turn into a little speedy gonzalez when she sees the grain bucket. I have to tell her to slow down! Tonight I heard a bit of a wet cough coming from her which i s a little worrying. We try to keep her on her feet as much during the day as possible while also letting her rest her feet, but she does sit almost 6 hours through the night. Her temperature is normal. We're done with the Panacur course for meningeal. Still giving her 'magic', lots of peanut hay, cal mpk (once a day now), grain, sunflower seeds, and vitamin B.


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## Alaskan (Feb 5, 2021)

abraeri said:


> Well for an update... she's still about that same I'd say. Her udders are filling a bit. And she does turn into a little speedy gonzalez when she sees the grain bucket. I have to tell her to slow down! Tonight I heard a bit of a wet cough coming from her which i s a little worrying. We try to keep her on her feet as much during the day as possible while also letting her rest her feet, but she does sit almost 6 hours through the night. Her temperature is normal. We're done with the Panacur course for meningeal. Still giving her 'magic', lots of peanut hay, cal mpk (once a day now), grain, sunflower seeds, and vitamin B.


Thanks for the update


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## messybun (Feb 5, 2021)

Is it possible your goat has gestational diabetes?


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## abraeri (Feb 8, 2021)

messybun said:


> Is it possible your goat has gestational diabetes?



I guess it's possible; the molasses is definitely helping her a lot. I don't see many articles about that though; what would be the symptoms, or how could I determine if it is? A blood test?


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## messybun (Feb 8, 2021)

abraeri said:


> I guess it's possible; the molasses is definitely helping her a lot. I don't see many articles about that though; what would be the symptoms, or how could I determine if it is? A blood test?


Honestly I’m not sure, when you mentioned ketones it reminded of my friend who had gestational diabetes, and some of her symptoms reminded me of my diabetic dog. Especially only moving when the grain bucket is close at hand. And caprine diabetes makes them more parasite prone. It was just a weird thought, I don’t know how to treat it or anything. Just maybe something to ask the vet about?


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## abraeri (Feb 10, 2021)

She's given birth to two healthy little boys! They took a little time to get on their feet but now are walking and nursing fine! Unfortunately, the mother still cannot get up on her own, and has some difficulty peeing without sitting down. She is a very very attentive mother this time around though; talking to them, won't stop licking them. We're hoping we can dam raise; I don't think it would be good to separate her kids from her and we're home all the time so if she isn't able to recover in a few days we can still pick her up often enough for the kids to drink. Sort of like bottle feeding schedule, but from the dam   

A very easy birth too! I noticed her pawing at the ground (mind I'm thinking her due date is the 20th) so I go down to sit with her in the barn. She starts getting goopy, then peeing in bursts with more discharge. Finally she sits down and starts pushing. Both kids were positioned head first with one leg behind them. On the first one I was able to reach in and pull the other leg out to be in proper position, but the second one's head and one foot came out too fast (and I couldn't find his other leg) so I had to give him a little pull and he turned out fine. I'm still surprised there were only two (and 7 lbs only) and that they were even alive. Much better than her last kidding (what a surprise!).


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## Alaskan (Feb 11, 2021)

abraeri said:


> She's given birth to two healthy little boys! They took a little time to get on their feet but now are walking and nursing fine! Unfortunately, the mother still cannot get up on her own, and has some difficulty peeing without sitting down. She is a very very attentive mother this time around though; talking to them, won't stop licking them. We're hoping we can dam raise; I don't think it would be good to separate her kids from her and we're home all the time so if she isn't able to recover in a few days we can still pick her up often enough for the kids to drink. Sort of like bottle feeding schedule, but from the dam
> 
> A very easy birth too! I noticed her pawing at the ground (mind I'm thinking her due date is the 20th) so I go down to sit with her in the barn. She starts getting goopy, then peeing in bursts with more discharge. Finally she sits down and starts pushing. Both kids were positioned head first with one leg behind them. On the first one I was able to reach in and pull the other leg out to be in proper position, but the second one's head and one foot came out too fast (and I couldn't find his other leg) so I had to give him a little pull and he turned out fine. I'm still surprised there were only two (and 7 lbs only) and that they were even alive. Much better than her last kidding (what a surprise!).


Oh how wonderful!  Super cute tiny little kids!  

 

I hope that with the babies out she will perk up at least a little. 

What a crazy ride!!!!


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## abraeri (Feb 11, 2021)

She's running a bit of a fever. Earlier noticed her temp was up and breathing was a little hard so gave her a shot of Draxxin. Went down to pick her up later and let the kids drink and her temp was 104.8, we stood her up and let her breathe some fresh, colder air; checked her temp and it's down to 103.9

I'm not sure if it's coincidence or if the sitting down is elevating her temperature. She's still alert and eating.


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## Alaskan (Feb 11, 2021)

abraeri said:


> She's running a bit of a fever. Earlier noticed her temp was up and breathing was a little hard so gave her a shot of Draxxin. Went down to pick her up later and let the kids drink and her temp was 104.8, we stood her up and let her breathe some fresh, colder air; checked her temp and it's down to 103.9
> 
> I'm not sure if it's coincidence or if the sitting down is elevating her temperature. She's still alert and eating.


Wow... so stressful.

Are the kids still good?

Can't remember,  do you have another doe in milk?  Or just her?


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## abraeri (Feb 11, 2021)

Alaskan said:


> Wow... so stressful.
> 
> Are the kids still good?
> 
> Can't remember,  do you have another doe in milk?  Or just her?



The kids are still good and happy. They drink well and one of them will cry if he can't get the teat after trying for a while... mama's teats are a little too big to fit in their tiny mouths easily. They've started exploring and jumping about. She's the only one in milk; the next two are only due in a month.

Hoping and praying she will be fine.


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## abraeri (Feb 12, 2021)

Her temp is down to 102.7, which is good. Her breathing is still not as good as I would like it and she seems to be peeing less often than before although she is drinking water. She hunches every now and then.


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## Alaskan (Feb 12, 2021)

abraeri said:


> Her temp is down to 102.7, which is good. Her breathing is still not as good as I would like it and she seems to be peeing less often than before although she is drinking water. She hunches every now and then.


Hummmmm  can you put a bit of sugar into the water to tempt Her to drink more?


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## Finnie (Feb 19, 2021)

How is she doing this week?


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## abraeri (Feb 22, 2021)

Finnie said:


> How is she doing this week?


Much better! She is peeing without falling and actually got up by herself  a few days ago to give milk to her kids. She’s still dragging that back foot though so not sure if it’s something that is permanent or will go away with time.

Her poop is still fluctuating between clumpy and nice berries


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## Alaskan (Feb 22, 2021)

abraeri said:


> Much better! She is peeing without falling and actually got up by herself  a few days ago to give milk to her kids. She’s still dragging that back foot though so not sure if it’s something that is permanent or will go away with time.
> 
> Her poop is still fluctuating between clumpy and nice berries


Excellent news!


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## chickens really (Feb 23, 2021)

Possibly she is having sciatic nerve pain. Could be her issues during her pregnancy. Pinched nerve.


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