# BYH Official Poll: What are the things that you should consider before buying herds?



## Support

So you are planning to get you own herd of animals and is super excited to get started!

But, before making some impulsive purchases and biting more than you can chew, it is best to make a list of the reasons why you want to buy animals, where you are going to house them, how you are going to take care of them etc.


If you are a first time herd owner, what are the things you should consider first before buying your own animals?

If your answer is not listed below, please choose 'Others" and discuss it below.


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## DutchBunny03

Before even considering the idea, you must check your zoning ordinances. If not, you could run into a lot of trouble with the town, county, or even state. Make sure you have some extra money in the bank to help you get started. Vet visits can come up unexpectedly. You also need to establish a plan for when you are out of town. Who will feed and water your herd when you aren't there? Make sure you buy the animals from a reputable breeder, and preferably the animals should be pedigreed purebreds. You can expect optimal performance and get it with purebreds; with mongrels, you cannot expect what kind of results you will get.


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## Baymule

How about all of the above, plus what @DutchBunny03 added? BTW, that's a good post @DutchBunny03 !!!!

I would like to add
1. Predators and how to protect your herd from predators.
2. Possible theft and how to keep thieves away.
3. Livestock Guard Dogs!


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## DutchBunny03

Thanks!!! I have rabbits, so a LGD is not really neccessary. But I have heard that they are very useful for goats, sheep, and alpacas. Is animal theft a problem in your area?


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## Ponker

Also be sure to have test results in hand for the animals you're bringing home. Do not ever ever bring an untested animal to your property. Some diseases live in the soil for years! Demand test results for the prevalent diseases of the selected animal. Never take anyone's word for it. Walk away if a seller balks at testing.



DutchBunny03 said:


> You can expect optimal performance and get it with purebreds; with mongrels, you cannot expect what kind of results you will get.


Purebreds are not always the best choice. A cross has hybrid vigor and can be more resistant to disease that a purebred. Many purebreds have inherent breed specific problems while crossbreds do not. A purebred is not always the best choice depending on your goals. That being said, I did choose purebreds for my farm.

Understand the parasite resistce in your area and know which products work and don't work. Learn how to do your own fecals and take the FAMACHA class.


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## DutchBunny03

I don't know much about other herd animals, but with rabbits, purebreds  are the best choice. Rabbits are usually bred for certain purposes, such as meat or fur. They are bred to meet that purpose. Hybrids are the next best thing, as long as they are carefully thought out and bred.


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## Baymule

DutchBunny03 said:


> Thanks!!! I have rabbits, so a LGD is not really neccessary. But I have heard that they are very useful for goats, sheep, and alpacas. Is animal theft a problem in your area?


We have sheep and 2 Great Pyrenees to watch over them. We also have a bodacious pack of coyotes that come REAL close, howling all the way. Theft is not a problem for me, but it might be for some others and needs consideration such as where to locate the animals night pens/shelter.


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## Alexz7272

Theft is something I worry about as we do butt up to a relatively busy road, (the only side non highway road to get to the city of Longmont). What do people do to prevent it? I have camera's all over the property and electrical fencing around the perimeter. Is there more precautions we could take?


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## DutchBunny03

I live in the last house on a back road in the middle of nowhere, so animal theft is almost nonexistent. But I have heard that a guard dog helps, or a motion light. Some people have used a recording of a dog bark that goes off if a sensor senses motion.


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## NH homesteader

I think you're good with cameras and electric fence @Alexz7272 

We live on a back road and our house is set back from the road,  no one can tell if we are home or not and we target shoot fairly regularly.  No one will mess with my animals. 

I do worry about  coyotes.  They've never bothered us but someone up the road had them sneak into their horse pen where the chickens hang out and take 15 chickens. One at a time.  Eek.


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## Green Acres Farm

Ponker said:


> Also be sure to have test results in hand for the animals you're bringing home. Do not ever ever bring an untested animal to your property. Some diseases live in the soil for years! Demand test results for the prevalent diseases of the selected animal. Never take anyone's word for it. Walk away if a seller balks at testing.




YES!!!


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## Green Acres Farm

DutchBunny03 said:


> Make sure you buy the animals from a reputable breeder, and preferably the animals should be pedigreed purebreds. You can expect optimal performance and get it with purebreds; with mongrels, you cannot expect what kind of results you will get.



Not necessarily.

Just because something is "purebred" does not mean that they will perform at the same standard of another animal of the same breed.

Look at their and their close relative's traits and decide if that is what you are looking for.


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## DutchBunny03

Purebreds have pedigrees. Pedigrees list the ancestry of the animal, and also contain notes about the performance of its predescesors(show winnings, special titles, any outstanding characteristics). If the pedigree is completetely filled out, the animal has a good chance of being a good one, if so many other great animals were in its ancestry.


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## Support

This is becoming a great discussion guys! Keep it coming!


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## promiseacres

Good input, really shows how your needs and intentions should direct your choices.


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## Saxxon

I am working on buying land out east of Denver.  My primary purpose is for dog sports, lure coursing mainly but also leasing the field for agility, training etc to others.  This will require making a field that is well maintained and irrigated.  It also requires me to vanquish the bane of the dogs, Goats Head weed, puncturevine etc.

I understand that goats (the animal) are great weed eaters, so with a good sized acreage they should have plenty to graze on aside form being brought in to munch out invasive species.  However, I don't know a lot about raising goats and its not really what I am looking to spend my time on but given the option between having them happily chew thru my weed problem or trying to manual weed acres myself I'd defer to the goats.

I understand coyotes can be a problem, probably not for my 6 shepherd dogs, but they haven't been raised as herders and are as likely to chase the goats so they'll be segregated.  But coyotes, now those I understand find their way thru a lot of fences.  However, that might be entertaining when I am home - rifle, suppressor and night vision will serve to cull the varmints on that score.  When I am not home they could still be a problem.


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## DutchBunny03

Your dog's smell may be enough to keep coyotes away. My dog is not a LGD, but has done alot to keep predators away from my animals, just by existing. The coyotes will smell your dogs, and that may keep them away, but you may want to train one of your dogs to guard your goats, or buy a LGD puppy.


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## NH homesteader

Not to be a downer but if you're not looking to spend a lot of time learning and taking care of your goats they might not be the best animal for you.  They do take a fair amount of care and can be finicky.  But if you decide to get goats I would go with really hot electric fence top and bottom of a regular fence.  If you get a puppy to guard them that's more work you have to put in (you can't just plop them in with the goats and leave them to figure it out) .  Read other threads on here,  there is a ton to learn about goats! 

On the other hand sometimes you'll see people hiring out their goat herd to eat weeds for people. Maybe look into that?


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## CntryBoy777

Something I will 'Add to the Pot'.....if one isn't willing to attend to there animals....ya better make real Sure that there is a Vet that will Treat them...before we got our goats I asked the Vet if they treated goats....they assurred me that they did....got the goats and took them to the Vet to have them tested and checked over...and vaccinations.....was informed that they didn't do those things.....Crazy!!....now, I'm reading and feel like I'm studying to be a Vet Tech....and a Botanist  too!!....if there is a lack in Experience try to find someone to Help....seeing an operation can be Invaluable!!


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## Southern by choice

One thing I feel is very important is to make sure you have access to a veterinarian.  I see @CntryBoy777  did do that but the vet was not really a good goat vet.  As you seek a breeder etc ask for referrals for vets. Most farm vets have their specialty.

Having a good mentor that knows health care of the species you purchase.

Automatically building a quarantine pen when you start fencing.




DutchBunny03 said:


> Thanks!!! I have rabbits, so a LGD is not really neccessary. But I have heard that they are very useful for goats, sheep, and alpacas. Is animal theft a problem in your area?


Yes, the country doesn't make you safe from it. Crazy what people do. 



Alexz7272 said:


> Theft is something I worry about as we do butt up to a relatively busy road, (the only side non highway road to get to the city of Longmont). What do people do to prevent it? I have camera's all over the property and electrical fencing around the perimeter. Is there more precautions we could take?





NH homesteader said:


> I think you're good with cameras and electric fence @Alexz7272
> 
> We live on a back road and our house is set back from the road,  no one can tell if we are home or not and we target shoot fairly regularly.  No one will mess with my animals.
> 
> I do worry about  coyotes.  They've never bothered us but someone up the road had them sneak into their horse pen where the chickens hang out and take 15 chickens. One at a time.  Eek.


 
Cameras  only help you to identify once the theft has already occurred. Hot wire is a mild deterrent.

The LGD's protect from both human and animal predators. Our dogs barks are different for type of predator.


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## DutchBunny03

Yes!! A vet is very important. And if you can't get a vet, you have to almost become one yourself. There are almost no vets that treat rabbits in my area, and the ones that do cost an arm and a leg because rabbits are classified as "exotics". I've had to do the same thngs as @CntryBoy777 .


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## Horselover

for 'others' i meant shelter, vet, emergency


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## samssimonsays

DutchBunny03 said:


> Yes!! A vet is very important. And if you can't get a vet, you have to almost become one yourself. There are almost no vets that treat rabbits in my area, and the ones that do cost an arm and a leg because rabbits are classified as "exotics". I've had to do the same thngs as @CntryBoy777 .


YES! My normal vet and a good exotic vet both have told me that rabbits were something they all learned about on a friday afternoon in vet school and no one paid any attention! Scary! It is soooo difficult to find a good one now days for rabbits! Mine retired so now I have no one. Made it virtually impossible to get any care or herd checks to keep my meds current. I no longer have rabbits.


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## DutchBunny03

A good step is to buy a book about rabbit veterinary medicine. There are whole textbooks on the subjects. I have my eye on a couple that I found on Amazon. It's cheaper to buy a vet book than have to track down a vet every time something comes up.


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## llamas r us

Understanding basic disease and parasite management protocols AND where the nearest large animal veterinarian is located with experience in your species of livestock is critical. What do they charge for farm calls, how available are they for emergencies, what are the willing to teach you to minimize needing them for usual and customary animal husbandry practices are things you may want to research IN ADVANCE.


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## Lanthanum

Baymule said:


> How about all of the above, plus what @DutchBunny03 added? BTW, that's a good post @DutchBunny03 !!!!
> 
> I would like to add
> 1. Predators and how to protect your herd from predators.
> 2. Possible theft and how to keep thieves away.
> 3. Livestock Guard Dogs!


I have a question about LGDs. Do they have to be a specific breed? Because I've never been able to train any of my dogs to care for my herd, they've only been able to stay with them very nonchalantly. I have an American Bulldog and a Black Labrador Retriever, and neither of them pay any attention to my chickens or goats. Only livestock gaurdian I ever had was a donkey, and my poor Ollie had a seizure and had to be put down when he was only three years old. So do gaurdians have to be a specific breed?


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## Baymule

Lanthanum said:


> I have a question about LGDs. Do they have to be a specific breed? Because I've never been able to train any of my dogs to care for my herd, they've only been able to stay with them very nonchalantly. I have an American Bulldog and a Black Labrador Retriever, and neither of them pay any attention to my chickens or goats. Only livestock gaurdian I ever had was a donkey, and my poor Ollie had a seizure and had to be put down when he was only three years old. So do gaurdians have to be a specific breed?



The short answer is YES! LGD's are wired different from what we know as "regular" dogs. We have a very informative forum on LGD's that you will enjoy. Ask all the questions you want, we will be glad to help you.

http://www.backyardherds.com/forums/livestock-guardians.75/

Many of us have LGD's of various breeds, and we are devoted to our dogs!


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## LocoYokel

Having checked all of the above in "what should be considered" I still have some others: zoning, predators, and theft have already been mentioned, as well as knowing to choose a healthy animal. Food costs were listed but keep in mind other costs: feeders and water containers weather and need to be replaced. Fencing needs fixing, and tools to do it, as well as cage repair.  Dewormers, antiseptics and other health care items regularly needed also run up a tab.  When considering how much space you have for your livestock include how much space you have for storing feed, especially hay/straw bales. In some cases manure needs to be hauled off and some dumps charge by the pound. 
Being prepared is way over half the battle, the rest is just a little hard work and the will to do it.
Most of all, Recycle, Relax, and Enjoy your critters!


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## ksaunders94

@DutchBunny03 we actually did get a livestock guardian dog for our rabbits because we had coyotes coming right up onto our porch and lost 2 of our purebred American Chinchillas that way! So we got him to deter them, but we live way out in the country and coyotes/foxes are a HUGE problem. While he didn't know he was guarding them his presence and bark keeps them away  He also guarded our chickens and will soon be guarding our sheep as we also live in mountain lion country! 

I would add if you are looking to breed know the reproductive ability of the animals. Most of our rabbits are hybrid but were crossed with very specific purpose and we only select the healthiest and hardiest. We've run into snags but it turns out it was not their fault but ours, hard lesson learned but that can happen on the farm, you can only read so many books (I own 3 giant rabbit raising books lol) and read so many forums and articles. So I have to agree hybrids can introduce better traits and health, but has to be done carefully and selectively, so if that's not something you care for purebreds are the better way to go as it's easier to know what you are getting.


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## DutchBunny03

!!! Thats horrible. We had a bear knock over a hutch once, but no rabbits died. Foxes are more a problem than bears. They can get into pretty much everything. Be careful of raccoons, too. They reach into hutches and grab at the rabbits.


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## bgundersen

I would say that all of the items in the poll are important to consider, but I chose the amount of land as first and how much time you have to spare as second, because a lot of people have "off the farm" day jobs but still want to experience country life.  

I was raised on a farm and have been farming on my own for about 20 years now and I always tell people the same thing: start small.  Start a garden.  Get a few chickens, or rabbits.  If you can go a year without killing off or losing any of these animals, think about another species, if you have the room and inclination.  Most people can handle half a dozen chickens and a trio of rabbits in their suburban back yard if zoning permits, plus a small veg garden or mini orchard.  

If you are on a larger piece of property, some goats or sheep, or even alpacas (they poop in one spot and don't challenge fences!!) might be a next step.  We have 30 acres and just recently moved into dairy cows...and this is after farming as long as I have.  I just did a LOT of research into what I was thinking about and made sure when I started shopping I had a good list of common questions to ask.  Care for animals at each step helps you decide what the next step is that you may want to take.  I was raised with goats, so I was prepared for the amount of work and fencing that they take.  Not everyone is going to find goats as agreeable to deal with.  Cows are certainly less work in the fencing and maintenance department, but need more space and food.  And if I had known about alpacas sooner, I might never have messed with goats...lol.  Of course, back then I couldn't have afforded them, so everything in its time, I suppose.

As far as the amount of time you spend, if you find caring for gardens and animals a refreshing start and relaxing end to the day, that is wonderful!  But keep in mind that unless you have kids that can handle responsibility well, you will have to be the one checking that the chores are taken care of every day, 7 days a week including holidays.  And no vacations unless you have a generous friend or family that can take over while you are away.  Just the facts...Our chores with all the things going on RIGHT NOW can take us from breakfast nearly to lunch just for the morning.  The evening chores start after dinner and go to bedtime.  But, that's what my hubby does for his "job" while I bring in the income to keep things running that require cash and act as animal midwife and johnny on the spot.  It works for us.

So, start small, do your research, prepare for whatever you choose to take your first step with and see where life leads you.  You may have a plan, but just remember - animals don't speak English and don't care that your plans included a Sunday afternoon nap when they decide to deliver quad kids every which way but straight.  Be flexible and go with the flow and you will find a new normal that you didn't even imagine would be so delightful.


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## Bekkidotes

I would add that you should think about having at least two quarantine areas planned out to separate sick or new stock, and have a plan for how you are going to separate the intact boys from the girls (keeping in mind that many animals such as goats can and will mate through a shared fence!)


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## greybeard

Ponker said:


> Purebreds are not always the best choice. A cross has hybrid vigor and can be more resistant to disease that a purebred. Many purebreds have inherent breed specific problems while crossbreds do not. A purebred is not always the best choice depending on your goals.



winner winner steak dinner!!
If the goal is show, becoming a seedstock producer, or phenotype alone, then registered purebred stock may be the best bet, but for production, 2,3 and even 4way crosses have proven time and again to be the best way to improve stock.


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## Terrace

You might consider buying and selling with fluctuation in the market.

Or available grass. Like buying bred ewes near the end of winter. Take advantage of the pasture for spring and summer going into fall. Selling off the ewes just after weaning.

Its great for pasture management if you have a few dairy animals.


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## norseofcourse

It's *always* going to take more time than you ever thought it would.

It's *always* going to take more money than you ever thought it would.

You will experience joy, frustration, awe, worry, laughter, pain, peace, heartache, pride, anger, accomplishment, self-sufficiency, and increased knowledge.  You will do things you never thought you could.

Your life will change.


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## Prairie Fleur

Another thing I'd like to add is what you're comfortable handling, size, breed and individual temperament of animals. I'd never had livestock experience and we got chickens and goats. I wanted something small easy to handle and a milk animal so I went with Nigerians. Lost a buck the first winter due to copper deficiency that the previous owner didn't catch, but made it thru that and they've been fairly easy for us. 
A good mentor that's willing to guide a newbie is worth their weight in gold as well!! You're better off paying a little more for animals from someone who's willing to answer questions and help trouble shoot than less from someone who disappears as soon as the money changes hands. 
Agreed on the predator thing. LGDs are valuable animals!


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## Mr Fixit

DutchBunny03 said:


> Before even considering the idea, you must check your zoning ordinances. If not, you could run into a lot of trouble with the town, county, or even state. Make sure you have some extra money in the bank to help you get started. Vet visits can come up unexpectedly. You also need to establish a plan for when you are out of town. Who will feed and water your herd when you aren't there? Make sure you buy the animals from a reputable breeder, and preferably the animals should be pedigreed purebreds. You can expect optimal performance and get it with purebreds; with mongrels, you cannot expect what kind of results you will get.


Seems like the opposite to me, never had problems with the "mutts", only the purebreds, probably due to inbreeding. ..


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## danimal

One of the first and most salient considerations—not mentioned in the list, so “other”—should be to contemplate the type of environment you’ll be working in, as that can crucially inform your decision about what species (and how many) to keep! This includes the type of landscape, the local resources, the climate, type of flora (and fauna, with omnivores) available as forage, the cultural climate, and other qualitative factors—not just the size of available acreage and price of feeds. The notion is so intuitive for many it often goes overlooked. But it is worth highlighting.

Do you have a rocky, steep area full of brambles? That might make goats an obvious natural choice for a dairy animal over cows. Do you already operate or have connections with a creamery or bakery, or have a large avocado orchard? Suddenly, pigs make that much more sense. Do you live in a tight community of devout Hindus? Maybe a beef steer, despite it’s appeal, just might not be worth the friction with the neighbors. Got a “slug problem” in the garden? That might just be your garden crying out to you for some ducks.

When one looks at livestock species in this way from the get-go—as puzzle pieces that should fit harmoniously into the larger agro-ecological/cultural/economic picture—much may become clearer, cheaper, and simpler, and the animals may be better off.


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## Pat Taylor

I live on an island.  Will I need to fence the river bank as well?


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## Pat Taylor

I'm only getting as pets. Trying to decide on 2 goats or a goat and pig.
What types of parasites do I check for on my property?  Can goats eat the grasses on the riverbank and I supplement with additional feed?


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## gcarmack2001

You should make sure you purchase from herds that have been tested for diseases (I'm fine with just CAE and Johnnes, but CL is always a bonus) and that the land/area you will have your animals on hasn't had any other kinds of livestock on it that could spread any diseases that goats could contract.


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## Beekissed

For my "other" I would say the single biggest mistake I see many doing before they get a flock or herd is not having adequate shelter for them.  A barn, shed, shelter, coop is a must before a single animal sets foot on the land.  It's as important as fencing.  

If you don't have the housing, why in the world would you consider bringing home the animal?  Some animals carry their barns on their backs, like sheep, and that's okay...they don't necessarily NEED a barn but it's sure nice if they have some kind of wind block or shelter for the winter months.


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## Ridgetop

1.  What experience do you have with animals?  Not your pet cat, bunny, parakeet and dog, but _livestock_ like sheep, goats, pigs, cattle, horses, etc.  You don't need any experience (most of us have gained it over the  years) BUT DO  YUR RESEARCH FIRST*.* *Read everything you can on raising whatever animals you might want*.  And not just in a chat room either (you will get help there and make friends, but do you really want to learn about mistakes that could have been avoided after spending a lot of money on animals that are not right for you or your situation?   Get real books on how to do it.  They will also form the nucleus of your refer to library which is a must when raising livestock.  30 years and I am still learning and adding to that library.  New research comes out all the time.  They will have important information on housing, feeding, and vet care specific to that species. 

2.  After you have read those books multiple times, take a survey of your property.  Flat land?  Rolling hills?  Steep gullies?  Each of these will need different types of fencing and shelters.  Know your land.  Then start fencing and building your pens.  When fencing remember that predators may be non existent on your empty acres but as soon as you have prey (livestock) for them they will arrive.  Neighborhood dogs running loose are even worse than coyotes.  Fence securely with an eye to tall no climb fences with hot wires top and bottom if possible.   If electric fence wire is not possible for you, lay wire, boulders, logs, etc. along the bottom of the fences to keep predators from digging in.

3.  Shelters should be tall enough for you to walk inside to clean and feed.  There may come a time when you have a sick or dead animal to remove.  It s not fun to have to crawl into the goat house through the manure to get to the sick or injured animal.  Let alone having to pull kids or lambs in that type of shelter!  Figure out your weather and while most shelters do not have to be totally enclosed (that is more for our comfort doing chores than for the animals) you do want to provide wind blocks for stormy times.  Our storm winds usually come from 2 directions so we have to block off one opening in our barn during lambing season if it is cold and windy.  A pole barn with pens that you can pile straw bales around the sides in winter may be all you need.  Exchange of fresh air is essential in all animal keeping facilities to keep disease down.  You can build feeders and when buying water containers, I find the large black rubber types last longest and are easiest to move.  of you have horses and cows, the large metal stock tanks are good too.  You can hook them to a float to keep them filled eventually (remember start small).  However, horses and goats find the floats to be toys and like to lay with them (break them LOL)!

4.  *START SMALL *unless you have bought several acres and plan to run stock commercially.  If you do that, buy a functioning ranch with outbuildings.  The house is less important than the animal pens, housing, and facilities.  You can always renovate the house.  I *DO NOT recommend buying a ranch to raise livestock commercially unless you have a lot of experience with whatever you want to raise!  Or a large trust fund!
*
5.  Whatever you buy, buy from a breeder who keeps records, vaccinates their stock, tests them for species specific diseases and is willing to tell you what those diseases are.  The stock does not have to be registered stock.  I find that if you want specific things though you should go with the breed or type of animal you want.  Listen to many breeders about their animals.  Remember that even though you don't want to show your animals that the conformation standard is built around utility in each species and breed.


6.  If you want a milk goat for house milk, TASTE the milk of the animal you are planning to buy.  Check the udder for ease of milking and do not buy one whose udder is drooping or with teats to large or small as to be uncomfortable when milking.  Some breeds have milk that is not as palatable.  I have found (having milked 5 breeds for house use) that Nubian and LaMancha have the best milk.  Remember too, the type of feed will also change the taste of the milk.  I like standard size goats since they are more comfortable for me to walk, milk, and work on.  This is a personal preference and there are others who don't.



Falling in love with a "cute" lamb or at a saleyard doesn't cut it.  That is where the experienced herdsman sends his culls or diseased animals.


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## Ridgetop

Back to other species - there is an entire other conformation standard for meat animals.  There the udder needs to be good enough to raise healthy offspring but does not need to milk for 10 months.  Whether in steers, sheep, or rabbits, you want a long thick loin, muscular hind quarters, and thickness in all the meaty cuts.  IT WILL HELP YOU TO GET A BUTCHER'S CUTTING GUIDE - YOU CAN SEE ALL THE BEST CUTS AND WHERE YOU WANT THICKNESS AND LENGTH.  This will help you select the best breeding animals for your flock or herd.

In meat animals you do not need to have pedigreed animals.  Some breeds differ in their docility so you might to check out that for you small holding.  More tractable animals can make the difference between enjoying the experience and taking the entire herd to the sale yard in frustration.  Crossbreds are fine for meat production since the knowledgeable person is crossing them to get certain traits.

Just because it is crossbred does not automatically give it hybrid vigor.  Crosses can also combine bad traits too.

PLEASE DO NOT BUY ANIMALS AT THE SALE YARD OR GENERAL AUCTION BECAUSE THEY ARE CUTE!  Most of these animals are there for a reason.  That reason is not one you want to take on.  Remember the sale yard is where the animals no one wants go.  The doe with chronic mastitis, CAE, or abcesses (CL).  The sheep with CL, doesn't breed, has singles, or loses its lambs.  Animals that do not breed properly or have other problems end up at the sale yard.  Even an animal that might not have problems before going to the auction, will bring illness home after being exposed to all the sick ones there.  Save your money and do not buy.  The only good buy at the sale yard is for the vet who will be making visits to your house.  Vets have sent their kids to college on fees from people who "fell in love" or wanted to "save" the adorable sickly animal they rescued.

Having thoroughly confused and saddened everyone by this long document here is my final advice.

GET A LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN DOG. Check out those breeders even more carefully for their knowledge and whether they will help you with the dog once it is on your property.  The good ones will always be there with advice and help.  Different breeds guard in different ways so it is important to check this out too.  Pyrs are traditionally wider ranging.  If you have a large piece of property this might be better.  We switched from Pyrs when our neighborhood got more built up to a breed that stayed with our flock.  IMPORTANT:  Don't scrimp on the price of your LGD  - it's worth the entire value of your livestock.   Some people think that they can put anything in and it will do the job.  My advice is to pay more and get a trained or started dog at least a year old.  A puppy is at much at risk from coyotes as a lamb or kid and will take a year or more of feeding and training to do the job.  It is actually cheaper to get a trained older dog for your first LGD.  That dog can help train your second later. 

Add up the dollar amount you put into your herd or flock, your livestock investment in fencing, buildings, and equipment, your labor too.  Do you really want to gamble on losing all that money?  Get a trained Livestock Guardian Dog and sleep easy at night.  You never want to see the aftermath of a dog attack or predator kill. 

Hope this helps.


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## AllenK

I reallly want to own llamas. I wish i could find an affordable pair.


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## AllenK

Reminds me of living in Wise County, TX we could literallygoout shooting neked in the back yard. Sure it was only 6.5 acres. But dang my wife and I had some fun experiences.


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## AllenK

Does anyone else raise chicken? I let mine out late today. They were not impressed.


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## Baymule

AllenK said:


> Does anyone else raise chicken? I let mine out late today. They were not impressed.


I have chickens, a lot of us have chickens. I have Easter Eggers and 10 Australorp pullets with 2 roosters, one of which is starting to attack and will go to freezer camp soon.


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## AllenK

Baymule said:


> I have chickens, a lot of us have chickens. I have Easter Eggers and 10 Australorp pullets with 2 roosters, one of which is starting to attack and will go to freezer camp soon.


Yes I have one with behavioral issues as well. I am still giving her the benefit of the doubt we like her tackiness though. I do hate getting bitten by her.


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## Ridgetop

The cheapest thing you can do to get ready to own animals is to buy books or get them from the library about the species, breed, etc., that you are interested in owning.  The computer is fine, *but nothing beats a home library of information that you can look up time after time.  *Most (not all but most) books published about the raising and care of livestock have current information in them.  Sometimes what you get from a computer search is not completely factual.  If you do computer searches, I prefer the ones that are from university studies. By reading up ahead of time, you can ask good questions without having to cover the basics.


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## greybeard

The Merck Vet manual is available online now for download and viewing...was free last time I looked.
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/
https://todaysveterinarybusiness.com/free-download-merck-veterinary-manual/
(a57mb download that is stored on your device)
  Even veterinaries and human doctors use computer resources and iPhones nowadays.

Home Libraries are great unless and only if, said books are updated by a new edition every 6 months or every year. Technology, nutrition,  and medicine moves fast in 21st century.

But the same is true for many of the U studies. Watch the dates they were done or published. Many are woefully out of date and/or their study results have not been repeatable.


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## AllenK

Ridgetop said:


> The cheapest thing you can do to get ready to own animals is to buy books or get them from the library about the species, breed, etc., that you are interested in owning.  The computer is fine, *but nothing beats a home library of information that you can look up time after time.  *Most (not all but most) books published about the raising and care of livestock have current information in them.  Sometimes what you get from a computer search is not completely factual.  If you do computer searches, I prefer the ones that are from university studies. By reading up ahead of time, you can ask good questions without having to cover the basics.


I agree totally here when I was researching Black Sumatra as a breed. I never read anything factual. They lay an egg per day not 90/year. We bought this breed because we didn't want eggs. We did fall in love with them. I really love my chichis.


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## Ridgetop

greybeard said:


> The Merck Vet manual is available online now for download and viewing...was free last time I looked.
> https://www.merckvetmanual.com/
> https://todaysveterinarybusiness.com/free-download-merck-veterinary-manual/
> (a57mb download that is stored on your device)
> Even veterinaries and human doctors use computer resources and iPhones nowadays.
> 
> Home Libraries are great unless and only if, said books are updated by a new edition every 6 months or every year. Technology, nutrition,  and medicine moves fast in 21st century.
> 
> But the same is true for many of the U studies. Watch the dates they were done or published. Many are woefully out of date and/or their study results have not been repeatable.



This is true as to making sure the edition is recent, but over the years I have found that much of the _basics_ in housing, feeding, vet, breeding, birthing, and care of young stock have not changed much.  If you are looking to start a herd, you need to read up on the species, and requirements before investing.  Once you are established, some people prefer to have a hobby situation where they just enjoy looking at their animals, while others get much more involved and want to learn much more.  For those starting out general information may be enough as long as the book is up to date.  You do not need to know updated methods of intensive breeding, AI, pasture rotation, nutrient content, etc. until you are fully invested mentally in livestock production.  Please Note!  I said _mentally_ invested_.  _This can happen with small number of animals, and people who just like to learn more about their own.

And lets not forget, some of those "old wives' tales" (or "old farmers' tales" here) is often good advice, gleaned from generations of raising, feeding and doctoring livestock without access to study results.  For instance the saying "green grass makes milk".  In a dry year no grass, small growth rate.  Good rains, green grass, high growth rate.  The University study will explain the nutritional breakdown, but we all know "green grass makes milk" is true.  And how about cutting protein levels to control scours?  I learned that 30 years ago from a guy in his 80's.  Some things never change, they just get fancy explanations from University studies.  LOL


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## AllenK

I wish I had an 80 year old farmer to advise me. Just saying. I have some really poor dirt. I don't know what was done to this earth but someone stole all of it's nutrients.


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## Ridgetop

Are you trying to plant a vegetable garden?  Or do you want pasture for livestock?  How many acres do you have? 

Do a PH test on your soil to find out if you have alkaline or acid soil.  Once you know, you can adjust your amendments to the right mix to help it. 

Start a large mulch/compost pile.  Dig an 18" deep furrow about 3' x 12' wide.  Collect grass clipping, leaves, manure, 
shredded newspapers, sawdust, BUT NOT meat, fat or bones.  Layer all this in the furrow.  If you don't have enough of your own, get some from your neighbors.  They may consider you insane, but you don't care because you are going to have great soil.  Put everything in this compost pile until it fills up.  Water this every couple days.  When it is full, shovel the dirt back over it and dig another one next to the first.  Start over again.  Remember to water your compost every few days.  After several months, toss it around a little with a garden fork.  After about 6 months, more or less, depending on the care you give it you should have nice dark brown soil. 

My soil here is very alkaline, heavy clay and shale.  In the Valley (our old house) it was beautiful neutral/acid loam.  I have spent 30 years improving areas of the soil, but it will never be really good, since we can't water enough.  Best idea is to build raised beds for some of your veggies, and improve the soil where you plant fruit trees for several feet around.  Then fertilize with aged manure, possibly with either lime or acid base fertilizer or amendments to adjust your soil.  Lots of things you can do to help nature but you need to know what kind of soil you have.  Some land has just been packed down over the years and just needs to be fluffed with a rototiller and have a few amendments (like your homemade mulch) put in.


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## AllenK

I am thinking of having a Mac truck full of compost delivered, It is just that we have that Mack truck here around the corner and the next time he is in McAllen he can pick up a load of compost.


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## Ridgetop

That sounds good.  If you have a rototiller, roto till your future garden, then dump the compost on top, spread, and rototill in.  Depending on your planting season, you can either plant for a winter crops, or cover the prepared plot till spring to avoid a crop of weeds when you want to plant.  You can sometimes get cheap hay that is no good for feeding to livestock (ruined by wet) to cover it over  At our old house one year I got 6 bales of alfalfa cow hay.  I peeled the flakes off and laid them like stepping stones,  In the spring DH rototilled them into the soil.  I would have liked to bring several dump loads of dirt with me from that garden.  After 5 years of putting all the rabbit manure and shavings back into the soil, along with my compost,  I would put my garden fork 3 feet down with no force needed!  I miss my dirt!  

But 30 years of fun and adventures here    No, I would never go back.


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## greybeard

Ridgetop said:


> Depending on your planting season, you can either plant for a winter crops


Winter? Growing season?
AllenK is from Laureles Tx, subtropical planting Zone 10,  near Brownsville, the southernmost point n Texas and about 22 miles north of Matamoros Mexico. Veggies can and often are planted there in the fall.

https://www.almanac.com/gardening/planting-calendar/TX/Brownsville


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## Ridgetop

Really?  Do they have lots of water?  I want to move to Texas but don't know where anything is there!    Probably need GPS to find the grocery store!  LOL  I am a several generations born and bred San Fernando Valley girl!  Texas is a big state!  Remember that I thought East Texas started between Austin and Dallas?     Ask me planting seasons, weather seasons, and what grows here and I am your girl, but anywhere else?   

However, _lucky_ Allen K,   because we have the same year round planting season here!  In fact, we have to plant very early in the year because our summer growing season ends in August when the killer heat hits.  Our garden dies out in August depending on the heat, and limited (no) irrigation allowed, so a lot of our stuff just dries up and dies.  We can plant again in October for stuff like peas, cauliflower, broccoli, lettuce, etc.  We just need to watch for bolting.  Everything grows here, except fruit requiring winter chill.  But it I a trade off for oranges, lemon, avocados, fig, and apricots. 

You can get ready to start planting your winter veggies as soon as you turn over that compost!  Remember to throw all weeds, dead garden plants, etc., into compost heap for next year.


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## AllenK

Ridgetop said:


> Really?  Do they have lots of water?  I want to move to Texas but don't know where anything is there!    Probably need GPS to find the grocery store!  LOL  I am a several generations born and bred San Fernando Valley girl!  Texas is a big state!  Remember that I thought East Texas started between Austin and Dallas?     Ask me planting seasons, weather seasons, and what grows here and I am your girl, but anywhere else?
> 
> However, _lucky_ Allen K,   because we have the same year round planting season here!  In fact, we have to plant very early in the year because our summer growing season ends in August when the killer heat hits.  Our garden dies out in August depending on the heat, and limited (no) irrigation allowed, so a lot of our stuff just dries up and dies.  We can plant again in October for stuff like peas, cauliflower, broccoli, lettuce, etc.  We just need to watch for bolting.  Everything grows here, except fruit requiring winter chill.  But it I a trade off for oranges, lemon, avocados, fig, and apricots.
> 
> You can get ready to start planting your winter veggies as soon as you turn over that compost!  Remember to throw all weeds, dead garden plants, etc., into compost heap for next year.


I really thought your state was on fire.


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## AllenK

AllenK said:


> I really thought your state was on fire.


Btw Austin and Dallas do have seasons. We Do not have those down here. It is always summer here.


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## AllenK

I am totally getting attacked by a mosquito. I was trying to take a nap.We do have the worst mosquitoes in this part of texas.


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## Ridgetop

Our state is always on fire somewhere.  Current big fire is in Yosemite up north.  Really bad destruction of forest.


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## AllenK

I will say this dog is annoying. She does like to "kiss".Nobody likes a dog tongue in their mouth. At least nobody I know.


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## AllenK

I will also say she is amazing and a really hard working thing in need of gainful employment. She really needs heels to nip and herd.


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## Baymule

AllenK said:


> I am thinking of having a Mac truck full of compost delivered, It is just that we have that Mack truck here around the corner and the next time he is in McAllen he can pick up a load of compost.


In the fall I pick up bags of leaves set out at the curb for the garbage man to pick up. I put them in the chicken coop and run. The chickens enjoy the leaves, scratch them to bits, poop on them and make me lovely black crumbly compost. I dig it out, put it straight on the garden and toss in more leaves.


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## Ridgetop

Chickens can turn anything into nice rich compost.  I used to love them when we had them because they would eat the  maggots in poop, and break up the horse apples.


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## Ridgetop

AllenK:  What dog are you talking about?  Did I miss something?


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## AllenK

I love this dog I want to get rid of. She is more than awesome. It is a red heelere that we have fully vetted. She was not  cheap to vet. She loves  me loads though. I am sure she would love anyone else as much. She is a dang goood dog just meant to be a hesrding breed. I know she will kill another flock of chicken when I nap. It is just how she do it. She kills my flocks and needs to leave the property.


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## Baymule

Our black Lab/great Dane had to be put down a few weeks ago. He was full of cancer. It was and still is heartbreaking. We now have a Catahoula pup about 6 months old that wandered up to our DD's house. They gave him to us to replace the dog we lost. Catahoulas are used to hunt hogs and herd cattle. He is brilliant smart, but that hunting instinct is there. He alerted on the chickens and our male Great Pyrenees plowed into him like a Mack truck, took him by the throat and shook him like a rat. He looked at the chickens a few more times and a firm No from me sent him scurrying under the porch. He will run up to the fence and bark at the sheep and gets scolded for it. I just heard our male GP correct the Catahoula pup with a snapping growl and went outside. They both came from the fence where the sheep are, so I can only surmise that the pup was a little too interested in the sheep. I praised the GP and petted him. 

The pup no longer even looks sideways at the chickens. I'll be working on the sheep part.


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## AllenK

Baymule said:


> Our black Lab/great Dane had to be put down a few weeks ago. He was full of cancer. It was and still is heartbreaking. We now have a Catahoula pup about 6 months old that wandered up to our DD's house. They gave him to us to replace the dog we lost. Catahoulas are used to hunt hogs and herd cattle. He is brilliant smart, but that hunting instinct is there. He alerted on the chickens and our male Great Pyrenees plowed into him like a Mack truck, took him by the throat and shook him like a rat. He looked at the chickens a few more times and a firm No from me sent him scurrying under the porch. He will run up to the fence and bark at the sheep and gets scolded for it. I just heard our male GP correct the Catahoula pup with a snapping growl and went outside. They both came from the fence where the sheep are, so I can only surmise that the pup was a little too interested in the sheep. I praised the GP and petted him.
> 
> The pup no longer even looks sideways at the chickens. I'll be working on the sheep part.


It really sounds like I need a GP. I could use a big white dog down here.I have a chocolate lab, brown halfling rottweiler, and a cookie monster. The coookie monster is a cool dog, stubborn but a great surprise! Not one of them are chicken killers, they are our flock protection animals. If the lab would have gotten to the hawk that tried to predate our flock, it wouldn't have ended well for the hawk.


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## AllenK

Well I have 3 of 4 great dogs. The 4th just needs 4 leggers to be an awesome animal. I know she will be great for someone. My 3 other animals protect my chicken just fine.


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## Ridgetop

It sounds like an easy fix.  Just get some sheep or meat goats.  You don't need too many, 2 or 3 would do you.  If you can get 2 bred ewes, you can wait on a ram.  One of the potential lambs might be a ram and you can keep him to breed him back a couple times, especially if you plan to put the other lambs into the freezer.  Just don't keep any mother x son lambs as replacements.
See, easy fix!


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## AllenK

Ridgetop said:


> It sounds like an easy fix.  Just get some sheep or meat goats.  You don't need too many, 2 or 3 would do you.  If you can get 2 bred ewes, you can wait on a ram.  One of the potential lambs might be a ram and you can keep him to breed him back a couple times, especially if you plan to put the other lambs into the freezer.  Just don't keep any mother x son lambs as replacements.
> See, easy fix!


I would love llamas but not sheep Alpacas would be fine too or donkeys. Turn the speakers up for this to get the real experience of these things.


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## Ridgetop

Unfortunately, if you are getting these animals for your dog, it won't work.  Llamas and donkeys don't care much for dogs.  Our llama tried to stomp our first 3 month old LGD puppy to death, when we tried to introduce him to our goats.  Luckily we intervened but it was traumatic for him.   Our mule does not like dogs ether and although she had been around our LGDs for years, has a nasty habit of trying to sneak up on them.  I am not sure how much damage she would try to do to them since she has not managed to catch them.  It might be her idea of a sick mule joke.  I only know that poor Rika will not come through the gate if the mule is standing in front of it.  This is an Anatolian that will face off to anything else, but Josie The Mule has her buffaloed!


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## AllenK

Ridgetop said:


> Unfortunately, if you are getting these animals for your dog, it won't work.  Llamas and donkeys don't care much for dogs.  Our llama tried to stomp our first 3 month old LGD puppy to death, when we tried to introduce him to our goats.  Luckily we intervened but it was traumatic for him.   Our mule does not like dogs ether and although she had been around our LGDs for years, has a nasty habit of trying to sneak up on them.  I am not sure how much damage she would try to do to them since she has not managed to catch them.  It might be her idea of a sick mule joke.  I only know that poor Rika will not come through the gate if the mule is standing in front of it.  This is an Anatolian that will face off to anything else, but Josie The Mule has her buffaloed!


Thank you for sharing your experience. I used to know this about donkeys but had forgotten, didn't know llamas could be bad news too.


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## Baymule

I sold my mule because I was tired of her trying to kill everything that wasn't a horse. She even chased deer. She stalked the dogs on her side of the fence, they were forbidden to go in the horse pasture. I just got tired of her drama. 

Llamas are sometimes used a pasture guards against dogs or coyotes.


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## BreanneRN

Can't really say I considered all that stuff, so here is how not to do it. I bought my "herd" one at a time...  It started when I had to put one of my old horses down (I guess I had a herd of horses until then, after that just one).  I thought my other old quarter mare would now need something for company and I am in my 60's now and can't outlive another horse, so thought I would get a sheep...  I had had sheep before, just to eat the weeds, they were ordinary suffolk cross sheep...  I had them for about 15 years.  Things happened to them, neighbors kid shot 2 after got rifle for Christmas, ram lived to be about 8, but was greedy and big, dropped dead one day in July of a cardiac event of some kind.  Cougar killed 3 of them, 2 ewes left eventually died of old age.   It had been kind of a pita trying to get someone to shear them (usually 4 h kids) and my daughter was in college and we had had drought conditions, so didn't initially replace them.  But some years went by, my mom died, my daughter graduated, moved out, got a job, a boyfriend and a life.  I retired and we had a non-drought year, a lot of grass and weeds, and then the horse!  So, I was on Craigslist looking for something (don't remember what, when these cute pics came up of weanling Painted Desert Hair Sheep...  They had had a bumper crop of ram lambs that year and were trying to find them homes!  Hair sheep!  Who knew?  No more trying to find 4 H'rs to shear them!  And that one was very cute!  Surely he would be company for my older quarter mare?  Next thing you know, I was bringing him home in a dog crate...  I realized that I was no longer thinking of my mare, I was liking the little ram lamb... and named him Tuxedo.  Turned out the mare did not like him anywhere near as much as I did and promptly chased him from the pasture and through the fence!  If it hadn't been for my neighbor, who helped me corner him, in a ditch, that might have been the end of my herd...  But we caught him, I brought him home (after thanking neighbor profusely), and now I had the problem of a ram lamb that needed company...  I bought a little Pelibuey (Mexican hair sheep) she was palomino colored, very young, and weaned too early.  But she loved Tuxedo.  I named her Fawn.  And he loved her!  Eventually, I collected up quite a number of ewes from around the state, all from Craigslist.  I had many adventures bringing them all home in dog crates from where they came from...  Soon, I had a New Mexico Dahl sheep (Dolly), Ellie, a Suffolk/hair sheep cross (I found her living in a chicken coop with another ewe, drinking filthy water and very underweight) but she was friendly and now my herd leader, and beautiful Belle, a colored American Blackbelly.  Belle came pregnant, though you couldn't tell, but she twinned with 2 solid Blackbelly ram lambs born in Feb. of 2017.  They were my 1st lambs and so beautiful!  I had 4 lambs in 2017, but only 1 ewe lamb from  Dolly, the New Mexico Dahl, born in June.  Fast forward to now!  My sheep have been good producers!  In the spring, I had 10 lambs from 6 moms, all my 1st time moms twinned, though 2 of my others had singles.  My Dolly developed toxemia and aborted twins, but I treated her and she recovered.  So, guess I have a "herd" though, I think sheep groupings are flocks.  But hope I still qualify to join you...  Still have my Quarter mare, and also have chickens and turkeys, cats and dogs.  When I'm not here, you will probably find me on Backyard Chicken.  Oh, and I'm not promoting my story as to how anyone should get a "herd", as I'm sure it is not the proper way.  But I am happy to say that I was fully aware that my 2 acres had Ag zoning, which is the most important thing to have after a "stable" income (pun intended) if you are going to get a flock or "herd"!....  Since I now have a bumper crop, I must now learn how to cut down on the numbers of the herd, which is not so fun...  I have butchered 2 of my ram lambs from last year (they are quite good) and will be putting some of the weanlings on Craigslist(afterall, it worked for those other guys).  If anyone has any novel ideas/suggestions for marketing the weanling herd, feel free to let me know!  Anyway, I love my flock of sheep and they are happy, healthy, and productive and bring me much joy.  I have a relationship with each one and though it wasn't "the right way" to get a herd, I wouldn't change it...


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## Blamo'sBestBuddy

I think it is very important to see if you the time to do the work etc.


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## Purple Mountains Farm

I wanted to add shelter, predator control or security measures in place.


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## Baymule

Purple Mountains Farm said:


> I wanted to add shelter, predator control or security measures in place.


Welcome to the forum!


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## Amaggio

I would add checking land quality, especially if in order to supplement feed costs you're going to sow a grazing mix or allow your herd to graze on plants already on your land. You want to know if there are toxic plants that grow naturally in your area, like milkweed, and if they're on your property. You will also want to test your soil to see which nutrients it is rich in and which it lacks. In this way you can be pro-active with supplementing minerals before a problem even occurs.


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## Amaggio

Alexz7272 said:


> Theft is something I worry about as we do butt up to a relatively busy road, (the only side non highway road to get to the city of Longmont). What do people do to prevent it? I have camera's all over the property and electrical fencing around the perimeter. Is there more precautions we could take?



Out of sight, out of mind. If you would be able to plant a row of trees that block your herd from view it helps with opportunists. Even better if you planted a tree you could feed to you herd, no fruit trees though the fruit could get stolen. I live off a highway and have a private road to my house but I was very thankful that the original owners decided to leave trees surrounding me. Even in the winter you can't tell what's on my land unless you come in or hop the fence. We had a theft in the area once by opportunists who saw an unlocked running car without its driver and stole everything inside. Two car seats and the radio were among the things stolen but there were no other thefts in the area. Opportunists are the ones I always think about.


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## MtViking

I also think about how challenging it’s going to be to have the animal in our cold winters and try and narrow down the breed/type of critter to add to the homestead. I definitely don’t want to end up with frozen animals before they’re in the freezer.


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