# Best LGD for what I am looking for



## TAH (Apr 21, 2016)

We are going to be moving to Alaska soon. Here are the types of animals we are going to have up there.
16 goats
5 sheep
50 chickens
50 duicks
2 donkeys
4 yaks
Know for questions. I want to know what breed is best at all my questions.
Does well with kids?
Does well in the cold?
Best at alerting people about predators?
Good with strangers?
Does good with big and small animals?
Has the least health issues?
Lives a descent time?
Good about not roaming out of bounds?
Good guard for the house?
Easier to train?
Can handle keeping back a Bear?
Weighs around 80-150 pounds?
How many LGD dogs do you think it would for the animals I named above?
If you could share what breeds you what about them you like and other things you might think of.


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## Latestarter (Apr 21, 2016)

Ummm if you want a dog to take on a bear,  you want much bigger than 80-115 pounds (15 above)... You're gonna want 120-160 pound easily, and more than one.  Just MHO...


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## TAH (Apr 21, 2016)

Fixed. I mean one that could keep back a Bear.


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## TAH (Apr 21, 2016)

Latstarter what breed is your LGD?


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## Latestarter (Apr 22, 2016)

I have a 50/50 Great Pyrenees/Anatolian Shepard. He's my avatar and weighs about 130-135.


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## samssimonsays (Apr 22, 2016)

I agree with Latestarter. Bigger the better but your donkeys will help too. I would say you would want a minimum of a pair but 3 to 5 LGD's possibly due to the amount of wildlife and predators up there...


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## Latestarter (Apr 22, 2016)

A lot will depend on where you are in Alaska... If you're in Black bear only country, normally any big dog will keep them at bay unless they are really hungry. If you're in Brown bear country, not so much. And should you decide to live way up north where there are polar bears, they will actually hunt dogs (and humans).


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## samssimonsays (Apr 22, 2016)

I don't want to scare you and add anything more but, Lets not forget the moose and wolves. A pack of wolves would be bigger threat than most black bears. But any bear and predator will be an issue around baby time.


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## TAH (Apr 22, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> A lot will depend on where you are in Alaska... If you're in Black bear only country, normally any big dog will keep them at bay unless they are really hungry. If you're in Brown bear country, not so much. And should you decide to live way up north where there are polar bears, they will actually hunt dogs (and humans).


Sadly we are going to be in Brown Bear country. About 25 years ago the Brown Bears drove the Blacky's out of town.


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## TAH (Apr 22, 2016)

Samantha drawz said:


> I don't want to scare you and add anything more but, Lets not forget the moose and wolves. A pack of wolves would be bigger threat than most black bears. But any bear and predator will be an issue around baby time.


Oh you didn't scare me. Where we are going to be moving there aren't wolves. Moose try to stay to them selves.


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## samssimonsays (Apr 22, 2016)

That is good.


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## Latestarter (Apr 22, 2016)

TAH said:


> Sadly we are going to be in Brown Bear country. About 25 years ago the Brown Bears drove the Blacky's out of town.



Gosh, I wouldn't be "sad" about that... but then I love being able to see wildlife without walls, motes, & fencing   You just have to be aware, keep alert, and be prepared. Sounds like you're all on board with that  One or 2 dogs even, probably wouldn't be able to take down a brown bear, or even stop one if he's hungry and determined. What they WILL do though is alert YOU that there's something in need of your immediate attention, and then YOU can go and take over and back them up, and do what they can't do... pull a trigger   Not necessarily to kill, but to scare for sure, and if it doesn't scare, then escalate.

Oh, and of course electric fencing works really well as a deterrent with even the biggest bear!


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## TAH (Apr 22, 2016)

We will be back up for our dogs. Do you know of anyone that has had a lot of expires with LGD?


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## samssimonsays (Apr 22, 2016)

@Southern by choice


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## Latestarter (Apr 22, 2016)

Yup, what Sam said. She's probably the most knowledgeable LGD person on the site. She's been a dog trainer for over 30 years. There are many others who own LGDs and have experience as well. There are also comparative threads in the livestock guardian section.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 22, 2016)

Any good LGD breed will work.
The Maremma's are a bit on the smaller side but....
The dogs really are not there to kill but to deter.
A Maremma (single) Pyr, Toli, list goes on can drive a bear away.
Having said that you would do best to have a strong pack of LGD's. Your region will require it.
Training is up to you.
Socialization with others, being raised with kids/lambs etc... all up to you. 
Instinct is one thing... direction is another.
All LGD breeds have double coat and do well in cold climates.
Some dogs do well with poultry some not.
You must work with the dogs strengths and weaknesses. 
You will want a combination of watchers (flock) and patrollers.

How much land will you be on?
Open land with no fencing is problematic. LGD's see everything they can see as theirs... so with no perimeter boundaries the dog generally does not feel it has any.


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## TAH (Apr 22, 2016)

The piece of property we looking at is almost 7 acres. The dogs will be staying with the animals. We will definitely have the property fenced. We aren't looking for one to kill just one that can deter a bear. We have looked at Maremma's. What is the breed you would recommend.


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## Latestarter (Apr 22, 2016)

Oh my! Have you read Southern's sig line? You've just asked a dedicated Great Pyrenees lover (and Tolis too) which breed she'd recommend...


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## TAH (Apr 22, 2016)

We have heard that Great Pyrenees Have healthy problems. The Tolis are not good around kids and strangers in the field. I have 6 siblings so I would rather start with a breed that is good with kids.


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## Latestarter (Apr 22, 2016)

No matter what breed you eventually select, they ALL have strengths and weaknesses. Where you're going, the Pyr would actually be your best selection as it is the best suited to really cold weather. And generally the largest of the common LGD breeds (you're wanting to scare off bears remember). Some have said the Pyr's are the worst about "wandering". Have never heard about health problems... All the ones I've ever met seemed pretty danged healthy to me. Health/quality of the animal you purchase is directly dependent on the health/quality of the breeding stock that animal comes from. Don't buy from a puppy mill and I'm sure you'll get an excellent and healthy animal. It's all genetics when you come right down to it. Breed quality, get quality. That means, if you want an LGD, buy one from a breeder that breeds LGDs, not just a breed name. And really, when it comes down to it, the breed isn't as important as the LGD background of the animal. It should come from proven, real world, active/working, LGD parents. Just because it's a Maremma doesn't mean it's automatically a proven sheep LGD.

My Toli/Pyr cross has never had an issue with another human, child or otherwise. He's never been aggressive to any stranger or family member that I have introduced him to in a friendly manner. I have no idea how he'd react if someone were to attack me, and hope to never find out. How your dog reacts to others is a matter of you socializing it. Ideally, you don't WANT it to be all happy and welcoming to just anybody that chooses to enter your property or animal enclosure(s). And aside from direct family member, I would also say that should include "distant" family members/relatives/cousins/etc. They have no business being there when you're not and especially in the field with the herd and dogs protecting them.  

Your LGDs should become part of your family and be raised with your family, and accept all direct family members as part of their herd to protect. They should have no problems with your kids entering the fields to work with them and the animals. Again, all part of socializing and training your LGDs as to what is acceptable/expected of them. They are pretty danged smart, believe it! But you WANT the dogs to "own" the field you've charged them with protecting. You DON'T want them allowing anything in that field that you haven't specifically allowed in there. They are awesome animals, but they are different from a "pet" dog. They are working dogs that need a job and do their job extremely well (when trained/allowed to do so).

I love mine to death and wonder how I ever went without owning one. I will be purchasing another after I get re-established, and will be looking for a female, patroller, 50/50 mix or a pure Pyr. If she works out, I'll consider breeding them (my mix is a male). But if I breed them, it will be with the idea of producing high quality LGDs.


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## TAH (Apr 22, 2016)

Is your almost done growing?


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## Southern by choice (Apr 22, 2016)

TAH said:


> We have heard that Great Pyrenees Have healthy problems. The Tolis are not good around kids and strangers in the field. I have 6 siblings so I would rather start with a breed that is good with kids.



What you have heard is very, very, very, wrong! On ALL counts.

Out of every farm I have ever been to, I am much more hesitant with Pyr's than Toli's.  
I am about to start training one of my Toli/Pyr pups for therapy certification and hopefully we will go on for possible service dog.
I have 9 children... all love the dogs all the dogs love them.
Out of my dogs-
4 of my pyrs - UMmmm lets just say NO ONE would dream of entering anyplace they are... ever. 2 are F 2 are M one of the males is "My" dog... I kept him because he is highly dominant and knew he would do best with us.

Out of those 4 I can say It's ok and they will move away from fence and lay down quietly or sit quietly but they are still watching everything and ready to protect me or herd. None will just decide to try to bite to bite.

1 pyr- Sire in avatar has excellet temperament. As long as I am there he will expect to kiss you with a nose bump and you must give him love... if he stands there and does not greet you in that manner you must leave my property- I trust the dog.
He stands 34" at the withers. Yet a gentle giant!

1 Toli M- Ok but not overly fond of strangers... will not charge or be aggressive just more - eh

1 Toli F- Dam in avatar - awesome awesome with any child and anyone but as she should be, protective of her goats. We bring her and our M pyr out often to farm visitors. They love them. She will lay down and let a toddler crawl all over her. Toddler like to lay on her to hug her and she just laps it up.

4 of our Toli-pyr pups-
1 extremely guardy I can bring people in his field but he doesn't like it yet is fine with children there not so much adults. 
This particular dog is "My" dog so he is very in tune with me and everyone in the house- why I chose to keep him... He is exceptional in every way. Truly a brilliant dog.

3 happy to greet people when we bring them in very loving - one in particular very watchful of children... always wants them safe.

All the dogs are protective of their charges. No one can go in our field if not escorted by us. We set rules for visitors. No running no grabbing a goat etc.
With our vets we must lock dogs up (ALL) if any treatments are done for a goat... usually we just pull them from the field and bring them up to the porch (the goat).

I can take MOST of my dogs off site to TSC etc and they are fine with other dogs and people.   

We have pics on our FB page of many visitors with our dogs.

Health issues are pretty much the same across the board. 
Spay/Nueter can exacerbate issues and create issues.

So yep. I love me some Pyrs some Toli's and the best of both worlds Toli/Pyrs!



TAH said:


> Is your almost done growing?


Latestarter's dog is one of my pups... some of the pups smaller some larger but all powerhouses! At 15months most of mine are 135-140 
Their mother is 140. There sire 145. If you look to the left at my avatar those are the sire & dam. That is a very old picture.
LGD's do not fully stop growing til 3 years. Their weight may actually go down, sometimes up.. they build muscle and reach maximum height at 3.


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## TAH (Apr 22, 2016)

I  did a lot of research and most I came across say the opposite to what you say. Do you let your dogs inside as puppy's? We may just end up doing tolis and great Pyrenees. I am glad to here about some that are good with kids.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 22, 2016)

Much is determined by training and raising. 
I don't know what to tell ya. Most are not trainers, nor have they worked around Toli's for 3o years. They are layman that have a LGD.
Many of these people are the same ones that have to use drags, toggles, shock, contraptions on their dogs... they use jolly balls and cannot trust their dogs til 2. 

The majority of my trouble calls are from Pyr owners.
The majority of escape artists are pyrs.
The majority of aggression- again pyrs.

They each have their areas where they are harder in and easier in.
They are both stubborn and hardheaded but in different ways.

If only on 7 acres- 2 *trained* dogs would be your best bet.
Trained dogs will be a minimum of $1500-  usual $2500.


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## Latestarter (Apr 22, 2016)

No need for me to say more... The owner of my pup's sire and dam said it better than I ever could. 

You will find a large Great Pyr rescue system across the nation, and most (who know what they're talking about) will tell you most of these dogs did nothing wrong, they were just set up to fail. People buy them thinking they are big huggable white teddy bears and expect them to live in apartments and town homes on postage stamp yards and act like your typical pet dog. They bought them to show off and one-up the neighbor's "big" dog. When they find out that's not what these dogs were bred for thousands of years to do, they can't handle it and "throw them away." It's a real shame. Many who own them flat out shouldn't.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 22, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> No need for me to say more... The owner of my pup's sire and dam said it better than I ever could.
> 
> You will find a large Great Pyr rescue system across the nation, and most (who know what they're talking about) will tell you most of these dogs did nothing wrong, they were just set up to fail. People buy them thinking they are big huggable white teddy bears and expect them to live in apartments and town homes on postage stamp yards and act like your typical pet dog. They bought them to show off and one-up the neighbor's "big" dog. When they find out that's not what these dogs were bred for thousands of years to do, they can't handle it and "throw them away." It's a real shame. Many who own them flat out shouldn't.



Agreed... or what is worse dogs bred to be LGD's and the owners were too ignorant to do the right thing...  dog kills chickens... gets rid of dog... young pup/dog chases... gets rid of dog.... dog digs out... gets rid of dog....

Now I will say ... they are big luvable huggable lugs! 
Cannot imagine life without them. And not just for the farm... they are beyond a pet, beyond a guardian... they are the most special dogs and they steal your heart.


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## babsbag (Apr 22, 2016)

I have a pyr/toli cross that loves everyone that enter his life. He is an awesome dog, but he killed chickens until he was about two. He is great with newborn goats, will protect them even from their own mom. *SIGH*...but he isn't crazy about them climbing on him when they get older. He simply moves away.

I have a female that is a mix of Akbash/Toli/Ovcharka/Pyr and she is probably the most stable dog I have ever known; but she hates thunder and gun shots. Other than that she is perfect. She likes most people and simply moves away from those that she doesn't trust. If she doesn't trust them I don't either. She will give you her paw and expect a belly rub if she likes you. 

And then their is Mia...my puppy. She is Toli/Ovcharka/Akbash/Maremma. And she is a handful. Too soon to say much more than that. Everyday I see improvement in her behavior, she is very "bitey", nips at the air, and nips at me, and nips at goats. She is my challenge. She is a half sister to my older female but totally different. With her it will be all about training that makes her into a great LGD and praying that there is some instinct under that fur.


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## Big A Ranch (Apr 26, 2016)

Hello all! I am new to the site I am so happy to find a place where I can get some advice on LGD dogs. My dad owns 3 Pyrenees and swears by them my kids did not grow up around these dogs but can come over to his house and play all day with them and the dogs love it. I have 200+ acres I am slowly adding animals to my ranch weekly I need a few LGDs to guard my investment. I have looked online for a puppy to buy and have seen Pyrenees forsale a few have bad records. I would love to adopt one then buy a puppy or two down the road but not if I am putting my current babies at risk. I have owned huge dogs in the past so the size does not scare me. Should I buy a puppy from a working farm? Or a breeder that does not have a working farm? I have seen a few Pyrenees/Antolian crosses on Craigslist and have thought about buying one most of them are from working farms and are born in the barn with the animal. What do you guys think?
Thanks for the time
P


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## Southern by choice (Apr 26, 2016)

First, you mention adding animals slowly to your ranch weekly...  What do you mean? What kind of animals? Are these from stockyards? etc.

Second, yes you want dogs raised with livestock. Few evaluate or know how but best to find someone that has some knowledge.
Typically these dogs are born in the barns etc. I allow mine girls to deliver outside then I do move them in for 3 weeks so they have direct supervision as well as the dam having supervision in case a health problem arises. Mine go out to a stall at 3-weeks by 6 weeks they are supervised in field with momma and are gradually integrated with livestock and poultry.

As far as rescues... it really is hit or miss. Some are in rescues because ignorant owners do dumb things and forget that pups are still pups... so some are given when they go through a bad poultry phase or chasing baby goats/lambs... no we don't want any of those things but pups are still pups.

I would recommend 2 dogs at once... well matched and paired. Dogs are pack animals and really do best with another for companionship, playtime, and guarding. 200+ acres... you will need more than 2.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 26, 2016)

I forgot to say ...


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## Big A Ranch (Apr 27, 2016)

Thanks for that information. I mean by adding slowly....I get a few chicks here and there mostly from a hatchery. I added two pigs one week then a goose. I am looking into four goats right now and plan on adding a milk cow and three horses by mid summer. That being said I am trying to add slow but steady so I don't overwhelm myself. I do have a lot of helpers with my kids. I have many outbuildings and such that are just calling for animals lol. When I get the big fencing done I will have cows. I'm hoping in the next few years to have the whole 200acres fenced and cross fenced for grazing and gardens. My biggest worry is having protection for the chickens and goats. I am getting baby goats so they will be kept close to the hose for awhile but eventually I will want them farther out and safe. I have my chicks penned up right now and when they get bigger I want them out and free ranging I want to limit the amount of feed I have to buy.  I also want the ducks to be able to go to the pond without having to worry about coyotes or stray dogs.

Thanks for the info
P


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## Southern by choice (Apr 27, 2016)

Big A Ranch said:


> I mean by adding slowly....I get a few chicks here and there mostly from a hatchery. I added two pigs one week then a goose. I am looking into four goats right now and plan on adding a milk cow and three horses by mid summer. That being said I am trying to add slow but steady so I don't overwhelm myself



Don't be offended but that is not "slowly", 

Have you ever had livestock before? Poultry?


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## Big A Ranch (Apr 27, 2016)

Not offended at all! Lol.....I have had horses but not anything else. For me it seems pretty slow. I have been planning my selfsustible life for years. I have had gardens dogs and horses. I am a little Leary of goats. I want Nigeria dwarfs and am worried about having them and having kids and all that goes into that I have been reading like a crazy woman about them.
  My goal is to feed my family from our land. I want good clean milk from my cow and goats. I want meat that I raise and love and watch grow in my fields. I want to cook eggs for my children and know they are the best they can eat. I also want to learn how to cook using just wood and a stove. But I want to keep all these animals and my garden and home safe while doing this. Fortunately I do not work outside my home and have the time to spend realizing my goals. I move my kids from LA to a farm town kicking and screaming. Kids that once only played electronics are now dirty gardeners and animal lovers. Even my husband is supportive of our life choice.

Eeehhh sorry about the life story Got carried away.
P


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## Baymule (May 24, 2016)

@Big A Ranch Be sure to plant fruit and nut trees. Plant lots of trees. On another site I frequent a guy describes planting fruit, nut and oak (acorns) trees in double fenced fence rows. The double fencing keeps the animals from damaging the trees and the fruit, nuts and acorns drop to the ground for the animals to eat. Free feed! We have 8 acres and have lots of oaks, native persimmons and I found a Mayhaw!

Of course, plant lots of fruit and nut trees for your own consumption also, and you can let the chickens run under the trees to keep the falls cleaned up, plus they will scratch up and eat bugs and larve for next years bugs. Plant as soon as you can, it will take a few years to bear.


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## Big A Ranch (May 25, 2016)

I will do that I have been looking for cold hardy fruits trees for my area. Fruit trees are just so darn expensive. 
What is double fencing mean exactly? I'm new to everything farm wise so I just don't know anything. Also what is cross fencing? I read the term fenced and cross fence and I've been wondering.
P


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## Latestarter (May 25, 2016)

Cross fencing is where you take a large(r) pasture and "cross fence" it to break it into several pastures, which then allows you to rotate your animals from one to the other over a period of time. This serves several purposes... #1, it allows the pasture time to recover from grazing and keeps each from being over grazed. #2, it helps to "break" the reproductive cycle of parasites like worms, thereby helping your herd's health and lessening the need for medications/poisons/vet bills.


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## babsbag (May 25, 2016)

Chickens in the orchard is a great concept, BUT....mine scratch so deeply that they unearth the roots. One of my projects is to put down  a large circle of  chicken wire and bury it under each tree so the chickens can't get to the roots. Other some other barrier...still working on that.


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## Baymule (May 25, 2016)

Double fencing is running two fences parallel to each other a foot or two feet apart, then planting fruit/nut/oak trees down the middle. The fence on both sides of the trees will protect them from livestock.


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