# Liability Concerns, LGD Signs?



## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 5, 2017)

OK, so I have been slack in our signs around our property and pastures. We have quite a few no trespassing signs around from the previous owners. However, my father has repeatedly told me I need more (and more visible) NO Trespassing signs and Danger, Guard Dog signs...

My concern, I only own LGD's. Yes, one hangs out in the front and his job is to scare people off. The others are with the livestock. I know I need better NO trespassing signs though. I went to a website where I could design my own sign. What do you guys think?







My dad was concerned because it wasn't a strong enough warning. So I changed the word "Working" to "BEWARE!" I am wondering if "Caution" or "Warning" might be better?


 


He also suggested I change the "Livestock Guardian Dogs" to "Livestock / Guard Dogs". I am concerned about liability. 

What do you guys have on YOUR farms????


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## NH homesteader (Feb 5, 2017)

@Devonviolet you have signs right? I think there was a discussion aboit liability of overly strong warnings...ie it looks like you are saying your dog is dangerous, therefore if anything happens it's your fault...


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 5, 2017)

That was something I was concerned about as well.... They should only be dangerous if someone is messing with livestock but that is their job... Or with us...


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## babsbag (Feb 5, 2017)

I don't have any signs but I would just use 'no tresspassing' and then these.

https://www.facebook.com/LGDsign/ph...197005842178/1444208179174394/?type=1&theater


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## NH homesteader (Feb 5, 2017)

That's perfect babs.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 5, 2017)

I have seen those. I wasn't certain they would be enough. And our fence can be bypassed easily by people most places but I would only be able to put those on the gates. But they are also in TN so they wouldn't have to ship.


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## babsbag (Feb 5, 2017)

I also saw one that said "my LGD can make it to the fence in 2.5 seconds...can you?"


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 5, 2017)

HAHA! That is awesome!! Reminds me of a story from a farm we visited when we were looking at different LGD breeds. He said his neighbor always came over and hunted his 100+ acres. After getting Boz and Boz/Kangal mixes he got a nasty call saying the dogs chased him (neighbor) and he barely escaped over the fence! The owner said good. You weren't supposed to be here anyway.  The neighbor had been told multiple times not to hunt on the owners land!


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## babsbag (Feb 5, 2017)

I have always heard that you don't want to advertise that you have a guard dog due to liability, but I have no idea if that is really true.


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## Baymule (Feb 5, 2017)

I like sign #1


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 5, 2017)

That was what I originally chose. But then I was told I should change it or add "Beware of dog" signs. The reason being that not everyone is aware of what an LGD is. Ugh. It all comes down to liability.


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 5, 2017)

I like those signs.  You may want to consider calling your local county code/sheriff/and/or animal control offices and ask them.

A while back the county sheriff gave us super important information about the liability and legal aspects of apprehending, restraining and arresting trespassers on our property.  I highly recommend you ask your local authorities what they recommend and also document who you spoke to as well as their response.  I had informed them I wanted to do everything 100% legal and in full cooperation with them and they were more than happy to help and work with us.

Last year I was attacked by a pitbull in our back forest.  He would run at me if I attempted to back up, and if I ran at him, he would only slowly back up.  I finally was able to get back to a building [walking super slowly backwards] and grabbed a shotgun and ran back into the forest, fully intending to send the darn dog to the next world.  I chose not to shoot the pitbull after seeing some kids smoking weed in a nearby truck, across from our property line.  I asked them if the pitbull was theirs and one said yes.  They climbed the fence and grabbed the pitbull.  I am glad I did not shoot the pitbull.  It was like the kid's favorite pet.  But I was surprised by the advice both the county sheriff and the county animal control officers gave me: Both stated, "You should have shot it!"

Every county can have incredible variations of rules, regulations, laws, and even recommended actions to take.  I suggest you contact your local authorities and inform them you would like to work *with* them on this project.


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## Devonviolet (Feb 5, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> @Devonviolet you have signs right? I think there was a discussion aboit liability of overly strong warnings...ie it looks like you are saying your dog is dangerous, therefore if anything happens it's your fault...


Yes, unfortunately we live in a litiguous society. People are just _looking_ for a reason to sue, so they can make lots of money. 

On an LGD site, that I follow, there was once a discussion about how someone had "Beware of Dog" signs, and got sued when their dog bit a neighbor's dog, which went onto their property, to harrass their livestock.  The arguement (in the lawsuit) was that the LGD Owner knew they had a dangerous dog, (as evidenced by the Beware of Dog sign), so they were liable for damages caused to an animal (or person, for that matter), that trespassed on their property.  Huh???  If you don't want your dog to get bit, going on someone elses property . . . keep it at home. 

In the end, the LGD owner lost the law suit and had to pay the trespassing dog's owner.  

I used to have Beware of Dog signs. But when I read about that story, I took them down and bought the following signs:
www.signswithanattitude.com








We punched holes in the corners & attached them with electrical ties.


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## babsbag (Feb 6, 2017)

I will never ever understand how a person can be sued for ANYTHING that happens to a trespasser on their own land. What part of trespassing do people not understand? I don't care how vicious my dog is if you came here unannounced and unwelcomed or uninvited with the intent to do evil you deserve whatever my dog gives you. I don't have any dogs like that, but that is still the way I feel. Same goes for animals that harass me or my animals. Crazy place we live in.


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## Latestarter (Feb 6, 2017)

Welcome to our new and better liberal/progressive society. Criminals have rights too! (BULLSHHHhhhhhh!)  Maybe it's gonna come down to SSS for trespassers as well


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 6, 2017)

Thanks @Devonviolet! That is what I was worried about. You wouldn't happen to know where that happened would you? What state? 

I am going to call my county animal control today as well and see what they think. I really appreciate all your opinions. I will also check out that website!


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## Devonviolet (Feb 6, 2017)

No, I'm sorry. It was a couple years ago, and I don't remember where it happened. I think checking with local authorities is a good idea.

On a more humorous note.  My friend, of 35 years, has this sign posted on her front door, in Lake Worth, Texas:


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## goatgurl (Feb 6, 2017)

saw a sign the other day that said  YOU ARE NO LONGER A TRESSPASSER YOU ARE NOW A TARGET.  I want one for my top gate. 
I've also been told not to put up beware of dog signs because that causes more liability since you admit before hand that you have a dangerous dog.


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## BrendaMNgri (Feb 6, 2017)

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/wildlife_damage/content/printable_version/LPD-Poster.pdf

The American Sheep Industry strongly advocates signage.  They provide a downloadable poster with commercial sheep operations in mind but it gives you an idea of what they promote.
When I wrote the Loss Prevention Manual for the Working Dog Liability Insurance Program for them, signage was an included chapter in the book.

I say the less 'cute' and more serious the better.  Sadly people still ignore them.  Mine say WORKING LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN DOGS DO NOT DISTURB.

So this morning I see an idiot get out of his truck at the stop sign on the corner, walk up to my fence to try to pet my pack - they didn't offer to bite but they weren't exactly greeting him with a bouquet of roses either…..  I had to yell out the window at him.  People are idiots these days.

Depending on where you live you may want your sign also printed in Spanish.

The folks you need to talk to about signage are not so much law enforcement as your insurance carrier. Mine previously told me "Beware of Dog" infers a vicious dog and thus that company frowned on that signage.

I think the words WARNING and KEEP OUT and / or DO NOT DISTURB are advisable.  But again ask your insurance agent.
Amazon.com has many signs.  I have problems with bad neighbors loitering on purpose in front of my place and plan to buy NO LOITERING ON OR IN FRONT OF THIS PROPERTY to add to my signage, eventually.
I own firearms and although some of the "Shoot first ask you questions later" kind of signs are funny, I would rather people didn't know about my guns.  Probably several ways to look at that.
DO NOT TEASE DOGS is another one I thought about and STAY BACK FROM FENCE.  I like the latter's air of mystery more - the first one I'm afraid it'll be an open invitation for a-hole kids to
tease my dogs on purpose!  
It is indeed sad that it's come to this these days, the lack of respect for agriculture and what we have to do to keep peace of mind.
I mean, some days, I'd like to have a Gatling gun parked in my entry area!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 7, 2017)

BrendaMNgri said:


> I mean, some days, I'd like to have a Gatling gun parked in my entry area!


  Me Too!!!

I would be worried about the same issue of kids and addicts wanting to test out that sign as well...


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## Devonviolet (Feb 7, 2017)

I've been looking into buying Rugosa Roses, because they have large rose hips, which are high in Vitamin C, and can be used for my herbal remedies, as well as to make syrups and yummy jelly. Oh, and I've read that goats love them. 

After reading your above comments about keeping kids away from,your dogs, I went to this page:

http://homesteadlady.com/2013/11/25/rugosa-roses-and-their-hips/

This lady planted Rugosa Roses, to keep kids from traipsing across her property.  On this page, she said: 

"We originally planted ours because they’ll get six feet tall and as wide, forming a living fence to keep out the unruly teenage boys that walk our street on the way home from school.  There was no way I was going to kiss the feet of my city in order to get a fence permit and I certainly couldn’t afford to pay for a fence anyway.  As long as I keep these babies under control with heavy pruning, then I’ll have a lovely, fragrant fence.  The thorns will keep careless youngsters from trampling my herb garden, too."

 I found 5 barefoot rose bushes for $18.95 + $9.95 shipping at Greenwood Nursery:
https://www.greenwoodnursery.com/categories/all-shrubs-for-sale/rugosa-rose-red-shrubs


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## Bruce (Feb 7, 2017)

dejavoodoo114 said:


> Me Too!!!
> 
> I would be worried about the same issue of kids and addicts wanting to test out that sign as well...


I would be worried about the kids and addicts wanting to test the Gatling gun!!


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## babsbag (Feb 7, 2017)

I like the idea of roses. I will most likely never use the hips but the bees would like the flowers and I would LIKE THE THORNS. What a great idea. Of course I have to put them out of reach of the goats so I can't use them on every fence line...or can I ? Hmmm, put a hot wire inside the fence line by about 3' and see what happens. I wonder if the thorns would deter coyotes too? My dogs have my back on that but just thinking.  I could let the goats prune them in the fall too.


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## Beekissed (Feb 8, 2017)

I like the top #1 sign too and I also like the one posted to the FB page.  I agree with not putting beware of dog signage up...heard too many bad things about that.  I also agree with the more serious and business like the better...working dogs are a serious business and people always seem to want to pet the "polar bears", don't they?  

We just have the regular No Trespassing signs here...I'd rather the dogs be sort of a surprise, if you will.  Don't want folks to have any warning about those, just like I don't want them having any warning about the guns.  Trespassing reaps its own rewards and some of them are nasty surprises.


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## Devonviolet (Feb 8, 2017)

babsbag said:


> I will most likely never use the hips but the bees would like the flowers and I would LIKE THE THORNS.



Ah, but the goats would LOVE the rosehips, with the added bonus of extra Vitamin C.


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## norseofcourse (Feb 8, 2017)

@BrendaMNgri mentioned the American Sheep Industry's Working Dog Liability Insurance Program.

That program was briefly mentioned at the Ohio Sheep Symposium I went to last December.  The ASI has a subsidiary http://www.fafrm.com/ that offers insurance (against price drops) for sheep, feeder cattle and swine, and they also have Working Dog Liability Insurance through a subsidiary-run company called Bear Lake Insurance Company.

https://workingdogliabilityinsurancedotcom.wordpress.com/

I could not find a link to Loss Prevention Handbook that BrendaMNgri mentioned.


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## BrendaMNgri (Feb 8, 2017)

Hi @norseofcourse - I was hired as their LGD consultant to help develop that program for over a year.  The handbooks are presented to those who buy the insurance and are not publicly available.  My boss, who worked under the auspices of ASI owned insurance company, and I spent months developing the vetting process, the questions, the handbooks.  We worked our tails off on that project.  Literally built the company from the ground up.  It was a huge learning experience for me.  The program promotes the responsible use of these dogs (and herding dogs as well).  That includes using signage, socializing the dogs so that they can be safely handled, buying quality dogs, rearing them in a responsible manner, herder training, proper breed selection - and much more.  The handbooks are really suggested best practices for loss management but again, are common sense, responsible use oriented.  The dog insurance can be really quite affordable and when you buy it, you also "buy" their legal team who will go to bat for you if there is a claim (dog bite, etc.).  The website is the best source for info on it so anyone interested should check out the link.  Thanks for posting that link.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 10, 2017)

Bruce said:


> I would be worried about the kids and addicts wanting to test the Gatling gun!!


 

I am afraid surrounding over 30 acres with a rose barrier would be beautiful but impractical... lol. Even just along the road would be far too much. If the county didn't spray the sides of the roads I might consider it anyway. Though I think my husband and kids wouldn't be excited! They would be the ones who would have to keep it trimmed. lol


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