# Biosecurity with multi species farm



## Bcarma103 (May 1, 2017)

Hello,

What's everyone's thoughts on biosecurity when moving to a new farm with multiple species?

Behind the question story:
I currently have a slew of barnyard fowl, 6 rabbits and 4 goats. I recently found out one of my goat doelings was exposed to Johne's over the winter. She was boarded at the neighbors. The other 3 came to join her from tested herds. 

My main question pertains to the birds...

I can leave my exposed goats here, but if I move to a different farm, would my birds possibly carry johnes?  I know they can't carry it internally, but can they carry it topically? 

I'm overly anxious since I got this news, just trying to figure out a game plan.

Thanks.  Ben


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## farmerjan (May 1, 2017)

As far as anyone that I have talked to, there is no cross species carrying of johnes; meaning from a mammal to an avian fowl....  Plus, it cannot be passed except through direct contact, manure, milk, bodily fluids like saliva, birth contact etc.   It also has to be in an active state...and it sounds like even though the doeling was exposed, how "exposed" was she?  Actual contact?  It is not something that our vet was even worried about when we had a ram show signs and eventually die from it.....because nothing has ever shown any signs or tested positive for it since.  He was also used as a breeder for over 5 years...and nothing since then.  But when I asked about the cattle that were across the fence, and the chickens etc., he said that it was highly unlikely we would ever see any resulting problems and after over 10 years we haven't.  He said at the time that he didn't think that chickens could even contract it, and I have found no evidence since then that they can.
  I would think the best place to go for answers is to contact your state veterinarian,  ask if chickens can "get" johnes,  because you didn't want to get chickens from someone that you heard might have had a case of johnes.  BE VERY GENERIC about it, don't throw stones and say you didn't know much about it but that you had heard it was pretty serious.


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## farmerjan (May 1, 2017)

There are several websites to look up info on johnes, just type it into your web browser and you will find tons of into on it.


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## Bcarma103 (May 1, 2017)

I have done my research. But no one has talked about bringing other animals with exposure. One of my vets has said fowl are great carriers of different bacteria between species, regardless if they carry it internally or topically.


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## Southern by choice (May 1, 2017)

I would contact Johnes.org  they have veterinarians that do only Johnes... so I think they would be better able to help you over a state vet.


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## Southern by choice (May 1, 2017)

Out of curiosity how do you know the goat was exposed at the other farm?


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## Bcarma103 (May 1, 2017)

I've looked into them. I know she was exposed  because about 3 weeks after I brought her home, and 2 days after my new does came in, I was told 2 of 4 does were put down for johnes, but she hopes mine didn't get it. Plus she had put one down with it a year before, but I wasn't aware of that when she offered to board my goat. Who is still under a year old.


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## Southern by choice (May 1, 2017)

I truly am speechless.  So sorry.


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## Bcarma103 (May 1, 2017)

Know you know why any change for me is scary.


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## babsbag (May 2, 2017)

It is my understanding that young animals aren't shedding the organism with any frequency, that is why they can't be tested until 18 months. So it is unlikely that any of your other goats have contracted it from her.  Hopefully she will be negative. As far as the chickens being carriers, I would think that they would have to literally carry it on them, which means they would have to be in infected manure. At this point I doubt that there is any of that on your farm.


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## Latestarter (May 2, 2017)

Completely unimaginable that your neighbor would offer to board your goats and NOT tell you that she's had positive Johnes on her property?!?!   Just unbelievable... I would be furious!  Is this woman completely stupid? Or just plain incompetent? Would she be willing to buy your goats from you because of her foolishness? 

Having typed all that... So sorry you're having to deal with this. The worst part being in may take 2 years before you know for sure. 

Me personally, I would leave the goats there and not risk carrying Johnes to my new farm via them. I wouldn't worry about the chickens as I don't think they could carry it internal or external. If you're really concerned, you could always give your chickens an anti bacterial soap bath right before the move, just in case they had been in johnes tainted soil/poop/etc. and place in a bio secure place/container until moving time. In the mean time, I would quarantine the exposed goat to keep anything it might shed in one area, preferably away from anywhere the chickens or any other animal might go.


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## Bossroo (May 2, 2017)

It is time for you to talk to a Veterinary Pathologist at a Unrsity that has a Veterinary Medicine Teaching Department. Also, contact the folks at Johnes.org .


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## Bcarma103 (May 2, 2017)

I have reached out to the U of Minnesota, but haven't heard back yet. I've read through countless web sites daily learning as much as I can. 

At one point I was livid with her for telling me about the exposure. Then I accepted the fate and thought they would just retire here and I'd never get goats again. But I spent $300 on milk goats to milk.... 

The point that she is still young enough to not shed the disease yet gives me some hope that if she goes, maybe the rest will be ok. 

You guys have been extremely helpful and supportive, thank you!


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## mysunwolf (May 2, 2017)

Yep, I agree with what the others are saying and the decision that you have come to. Sell the heavily exposed doeling back to the people who "cared" for her at a loss, and keep the rest of the herd, testing them all at 18 months old. $300 is a very minimal amount to lose in farming  It could have been a much larger investment, like a milk cow. We test our entire flock for Johnes (and other diseases) yearly, though we always have fewer than 12 breeding females.


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## samssimonsays (May 2, 2017)

When I contacted the U of M they didn't know a whole lot about goat diseases.... Maybe Johnes is different but they didn't know much about CAE or CL and nothing about the G6S for Nubian goats when I asked. Maybe they sent me to someone who didn't and maybe there are others there who do. I didn't have much for luck with them sadly....


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## Bcarma103 (May 2, 2017)

Thank God we didn't get cows this year!  We thought about renting out the pasture around the barn to a couple with 2 Holstein steers, but they have goats at their house too, so no more cross contamination. 

I'm not too hopefull about the u of m. But thought I might as well try. I heard u of w Madison has a testing lab for goats, so hopefully they will know more.


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## samssimonsays (May 2, 2017)

Bcarma103 said:


> u of w Madison


 The guy I just got my new goat from says he has a lot of luck with them.


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## Bossroo (May 2, 2017)

The University of California Davis, Veterinary Medicine Teaching Hospital is world renowned and their Pathology Department is very reputable.  Their Graduate Students come from all over the world.


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