# TAIL DOCKING. Can the way we perform it affect sheep health?.



## The Old Ram-Australia (Apr 17, 2015)

So why do we “dock” sheep’s tails? Sheep evolved with tails, unlike Goats, so there must be a reason and if you look at the least developed breeds (not interfered with by humans) such as the desert types like the Black Headed Persian their tails are shorter but are utilized by the animal as a “energy store” much like a camels hump.
It seems that the folks who control the Breed Society’s decided that the animal “looked better” with a “docked tail” and this thought has been carried to the extreme especially in the USA and to such an extent that Dorpers/Suffolk’s are now docked right back to between the buttocks, so what’s the point of a fat tail breed? While we are on the subject of Dorpers what’s behind “shearing” a hair breed for the show ring? So let’s assume the tail has a purpose and it is to store energy in times of “plenty”.
If you reduce its capacity to store do you not force the animal to store the “fats” higher up the body of the animal(say near the pin bones) around what is the birth canal? As a ewe approaches parturition the muscles around the birth canal naturally “relax”, but the stored “fats” do not react in this way and so an obstruction can occur increasing the stress on both mother and lamb. There have been claims that certain breeds lambs are “slow risers”, perhaps it’s from exhaustion of a difficult birth?
Is it possible that the extreme short docking can result in muscle damage which pre-disposes males to anal prolapse and females to virginal prolapse? There are those who advocate no tail docking but in some breeds this causes a lot more “crutching” to be carried out, my own preference is to dock at the end of the “bare patch” on the lower side of the tail. This system has served me well over the years I have been using it.T.O.R.


----------



## BrownSheep (Apr 17, 2015)

I practice a similar legnth as you do. Although I do tend to error on the side of a bit shorter as I have had issues with longer tails collecting manure. I also like to be able to see at least some of the vulva around lambing time 

I know most actual producers don't practiced the "scooped" out tail as much as show lamb producers. Personally, it drives me nuts and makes me want to punch who ever did that to the poor lamb. 

In the western US were sheep are out on range for half the year I don't think leaving the tail au natural would ever work. Flystrike and continually getting their tail mangled in sagebrush or greasewood would be far more cruel than just docking it in the first place. 

The big debate here is on that of prolapses. Most of the "show" people I know argue it doesn't. It is , to them, genetically caused. Personally, I don't think it will _cause _a prolapse but it sure won't prevent them. It never seems to be the lambs with actual tails that are prolapsing at the county fair, now, is it?


----------



## trampledbygeese (Apr 17, 2015)

Very interesting thoughts and thread.

My person opinion is that it depends a lot on the kind of sheep.  The breeds developed after circa 1730s, are bred for their wool to be easily processed by the new mechanical devices, and a different kind of style of sheep keeping.  The focus post 18th Century is on very different health issues than before then.  The breeds from before then seem to have very conscious control over their tails.

Myself, I don't dock my sheep's tails.  I choose breeds that either have short tails like Icelandic, or ones that have long tails but enough sense to lift them up when they poo like Black Welsh Mountain.  The Black Welsh Mountain x Southdown did have quite a few dung tags when I first brought her home, but since she's lived here, she hasn't had any.  I suspect this is partly because of my mineral supplements and that I'm more careful about changing their feed slowly, then her previous owner. 

As for prolapse, my _limited _experience has found it's more to do with an imbalance in minerals than anything else.  For us, it was a deficit in Selenium.  A few ewes prolapsed (tails and docked), we added free access Se in the form of kelp and haven't had a prolapse since.

I have read several places that the docking is purely to prevent fly strike.  I think maybe that's the simple, beginner explanation.  Looking at Pat Coleby's writings, fly strike seems to be an issue of mineral imbalance as much as anything else. 

I've never seen a sheep tangle up their tail in scrub.  That's interesting and something I'm interested in learning more about.  Are certain breeds more prone to this?


----------



## Roving Jacobs (Apr 17, 2015)

I think whether to dock or not really comes down to breed and management style. I don't dock my jacobs any more and a lot of other jacob breeders don't either. I rarely have any serious dung tags on them when I shear and haven't had any issues with flystrike and I have a small enough herd that I can always snag one and shave it down a bit if it needs it in between shearing.

My finewools on the other hand get super gross even with docked tails and being crutched 6 months before shearing. It's not that they are scouring or anything, all the heavy fleece, lots of lanolin and wrinkly skin just collect dirt and poo like nothing else.  I can't imagine leaving a big wrinkly tail on them would do them any favors. That said I leave a fairly long dock and have never had any issues with prolapse.


----------



## Godsgrl (Apr 17, 2015)

This is an interesting topic. I know that tail less cats, such as Manx, are more prone to rectal prolapse than their tailed counterparts. So there may be a connection on the docking tails thing on sheep.


----------



## Ridgetop (Apr 17, 2015)

Docking is not just a breed society decision.  Ultra short docking frowned on by the breed societies but carried out by show people because an ultra short dock can cause the rear end to look more level.  An ultra short dock definitely can lead to prolapse since docking too far up the spoine can damage the muscles surrounding the anus.  In ewes it can cause vaginal prolapse.  New state rules in California have outlawed the ultra short dock.  The judge must be able to lift the tail stub by a pencil.  Personally, I feel a pencil width is still too short and the majority of commercial breeders dock longer.  The reason for docking originated a long time ago when sheep were predominantly a wool & meat production item.  Too much wet manure on the tail in a warm climate can allow fly strike and maggots to infest the tail wool.  In extreme cases the maggots can go to town on the flesh of the tail.  It was predominantly a health issue in the beginning.  Now it can be a personal decision if you want to breech your ewes at least twice a year.  I used to breech or crutch our 4-H herd before breeding and before lambing.  All our sheep and boers were halter trained, including the rams and bucks.  Now I don't do it at all since I am a lot older with some physical issues and the sheep are not trained to a halter at all.  My kids are grown and I hire a shearer once a year.  I have Dorsets and they run with the ram.  Dorsets have very long tails.  Dorsets lamb out of season and I don't hand breed anymore either.  Since the ewes run with the ram from the time their lambs reach 2 months old, I get 3 lamb crops in 2 years - about 7 or 8 months apart.  I don't know when the lambs are due so can't shut them in a jug like I used to.  For me, docking is a health issue since we have bad flies in southern California most of the year.  I dock tails by banding and give tetanus and CDT at the same time, then the 2nd vaccination of CDT 1 month later.  If I have ram lambs, the 2nd vaccination is also when we band the ram lambs.  We usually ear tag with the 2nd vaccination too.  I put my scrapie tag in one ear and my personal herd tag in the other if it is a eweling, otherwise the rams/wethers just get the scrapie tag.  I make it a rule not to buy any ewe or ram with a dock shorter than 2".   I don't worry as much about wethers since they are terminal, but don't dock them short either since I don't want any health problems.  Sheep breeds with shorter tails and hair sheep probably don't need to be docked, so why bother with an extra chore that isn't necessary for health.


----------



## BrownSheep (Apr 17, 2015)

Just remembered this little bit of wisdom I was told. 
Inch doesn't seem like much but in a hundred lambs that little bit of extra weight might add up. 
That was an old timer's explination when I was helping him band


----------



## Ridgetop (Apr 18, 2015)

That makes sense when selling by the pound instead of by the head.


----------



## Sheepshape (Apr 19, 2015)

I don't dock any that I am going to keep myself and only dock my mule ewes and not my Beulah Speckled Face (local hill sheep).

Last year my Beulah Speckled Face ewe lambs did very well at market in spite of no docking (and in spite of the notion that the fashion being for docking this breed would mean mine wouldn't be looked at favourably).

I have had fly strike a number of times in past years....coincidentally all had been docked. Seems to me that the only ones which get fly strike are those who have diarrhoea, and better to treat the diarrhoea and hear the tail than to lop it off.

The few that I do dock have a 'hot knife' docker which seems to be about as painless as it can be.


----------



## Ridgetop (Apr 19, 2015)

I think it all depends on where you live, what breed of sheep you have, and what you are comfortable with.  When I was younger and could catch and shear by myself, I used to crutch 2-3 times a year so a tail wouldn't have been a problem.  Now I am older and have had some injuries as well as recurring tears in my ankle ligaments so I hire a shearer.  I can't shear and crutch several times a year anymore.  We all have to enjoy what we are doing and it would make me too uncomfortable to see my wool sheep with tails.  They don't have diarrhoea but their urine soaks the rear wool and it gets muddy when they lay down.  They won't get fly strike in the muddy wool, but I just prefer a docked tail. 
I know that breeders of club lambs say a short dock is not the reason for prolapse - that it is genetic BUT I still think when you dock clear into the spine between the hips it is ridiculous to say that it doesn't damage the muscle.  I have had only 1 vaginal prolapse and after we repaired it, and she weaned her lambs, we sent her off to auction.  I Luckily the lambs were rams and we wethered them so I didn't keep anything from her. 
We did have a threatened rectal prolapse which had a very odd story.  The ewe was enormous - ready to lamb.  Obviously twins.  She was a big, placid, Suffolk and had lambed several times before with twins.  Her udder was the size of a basketball - not exagerating here!  It was larger than any of my Nubian milkers that were milking 6 quarts a day (12 lbs).  Anyway, she went into labor one evening and lambed a ginormous ewe lamb.  I couldn't believe she didn't have more lambs inside so I soaped up and checked inside.  She was empty, her vaginal opening was closing and the afterbirth was already out.  I gave her a shot of antibiotic (standard for me after pulling or checking inside an animal) and we left her to take care of the baby.  In the am my sons came running up from the milking saying she was lambing again!  She had 2 more nice size lambs!  After reading up on my livestock books I decided that she was pregnant in both uterine horns.  She gave birth on one side first and 12 to 14 hours later on the other.  No problems and raised all 3 lambs just fine.  The first lamb was twice the size of the twins!  We witnessed both births, and I had checked inside her the night before - she was closing and empty!  I would have thought the owner was mistaken and the ewe was still in labor with triplets if it hadn't been me!  LOL  I love raising livestock - so much crazy stuff happens that no one except livestock people would understand!
I had the same thing happen with rabbits too.  A doe kindled with a small litter and since there were only 2 kits, I fostered them to another doe, removed the nest box and rebred the doe.  2 days later she kindled again!  No nest box and I lost 6 kits.  Rabbits also have a double uterus with twin horns.  It has happened a couple other times too but only 1 or 2 additional kits and the doe had then in the nest box with the rest of the litter.  Only the fact that I remove the box and remove and count all the kits when my does kindle showed it to me.  Wild!
Enjoy lambing season!


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Apr 19, 2015)

G'day, when I first considered this topic my main point was the "fat" issue relating to birthing especially in housed flocks which don't get enough exercise in late pregnancy, but it seems that the prolapse one is of greater concern up there.
I to am an aging farmer (73 shortly)but I am lucky that I can still shear and crutch the flock,although this year I have reduced numbers to about 150 head,mainly because last year I had a fall and broke 6 ribs,and I am still recovering.I do want to address some of the other points raised in another post later on.T.O.R.


----------



## Ridgetop (Apr 20, 2015)

I only have a few sheep and never had a commercial flock.  We sold mostly club lambs for 4-H shows, and freezer lambs privately.  In the show sheep world here, ultra short docking was widely practiced but the judges are DQing some of the ultra short docks because of the new rules, and you are seeing that pencil width dock in show sheep.  It is still too short for my taste but I leave a 2" tail stub on my lambs. I am interested to hear what you have to say on other fronts. 
We are no longer in a livestock raising area since land has been converted to housing.  Talking on this forum is very reassuring to me since most people in my area have seen too many Disney movies and think of livestock like pets instead of farm animals.  I get questions like "Don't you hate to sell those cute lambs?"  and "why don't you keep them as pets instead of eating them?"  Well, they work for their living like we do - they clear the brush on my steep hillside around my house and barn so I don't have to pay $3000 per year for someone to come in and do it for me.  They produce edible meat and I sell the lambs to help pay for the seasons when the brush is gone and I have to provide hay.  Expensive hay too in southern California! - not only have we had a major drought for about 12 years, but most of the good land has been turned into housing tracts. If our 4 kids and 5 grandkids didn't live within a mile from us, we would have moved to east Texas several years ago where there is water and pasture grass.


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Apr 21, 2015)

G'day,I have tried to add a pic to show how we dock.I feel by having the tail this long as a lamb it will grow in length as the lamb grows.At this length the animal can discourage the fly from landing and so discourage "breech" strike.We, in a normal year get very little fly strike,this year we had 8 ins of rain in the summer which pre-disposed the stock to strike,but the majority was "hip and shoulder"and even though the fresh pick generated some "scouring" there was almost no strike in the breech.I do crutch usually twice a year as well as shearing at a time of approaching risk.These ewe lambs are 4 mths old and were paddock born and only fed grass.T.O.R.


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Apr 22, 2015)

G'day ,TBG had a comment on the use of Pat Colby's methods and about 40 years ago I was fortunate to see and hear her speak at a field day on the raising of dairy goats (which was her forte).This started me on the path of a more natural method of livestock production.I could not in all honesty take on all of her ideas but the two things I can say was the use of her mineral mix(modified over time) and not vaccinating any stock for anything became the basis of our production system.Over the resulting years we have utilized aspects of many other "so called " natural systems ,as being "wedded to one"means denying the benefits of others.For example developing the trait of Natural immunity and the transfer of knowledge from one generation to the next and the benefits of improving the health of soil and feed whilst taking extra care of  natural flora and fauna outcomes.T.O.R.


----------



## Sweetened (Apr 22, 2015)

Interesting topic. Good discussion. Following.


----------



## trampledbygeese (Apr 22, 2015)

@The Old Ram-Australia

Good to hear.  I'm very interested in trying her free access mineral style with my heritage flock.  They seem much smarter than my meat flock and they are all breeds that have a very high tolerance for copper.  I already have to give them some extra copper as their needs are much higher than the standard sheep mineral mix provides.  

Natural immunity is a very interesting idea to me too.  I've had some very serious side effects in my flock from the normal vaccines and other preventive treatments.  I would much rather make the sheep stronger and only treat when they need it.  I would love to have a chat in another thread and learn how you manage your flock, which of coleby's methods work best for you, which don't.

Great thoughts everyone on docking.  Thanks for the interesting read.  I'm learning a great deal.


----------



## bonbean01 (Apr 22, 2015)

Following here too!


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Apr 25, 2015)

G'day, I would be happy to start a thread on the use of "free choice minerals" if you think it would be of interest to the group?

The thing to remember is that its not a "silver bullet" in itself,but a mindset change on animal production and land management.

Would the group be interested in a thread on "The Australian Working Kelpie?....T.O.R.


----------



## Kelly Wolf (Jan 21, 2017)

Ok, I'm going to weigh in on this topic ... mostly because I've just had to put down a VERY expensive Dorper ewe (registered and paid $600 - which for ME is almost a year's worth of saving up - retired and fixed income here) with a horrific prolapsed anus.  Let's be clear, she was NOT a "show lamb" ... however, the farm from which she came prepped all their lambs for the possibility of being in the show ring, meaning that their tails were scooped out, the entire tail AND one or two of the vertebrae off the end of her spine, likely when she was just a few days or a couple of weeks old.

Tail docking on *HAIR* sheep is totally and unequivocally* unnecessary*.  To dock a HAIR sheep's tail is the equivalent of the (now outlawed) Chinese practice of Foot Binding - wrapping a baby girl's feet to keep them small; permanently crippling and deforming the feet for life! Or maybe the Hot nailing of a Tennessee Walking Horses hooves to "enhance" their gait ... or the breaking of their tail to make sure it stands up and "flows" ... or the (crippling) built up and weighted shoes for their front feet??  Oh wait!  I've got it, how about mutilating the clitoris of 9 year old little girls??  Docking a HAIR sheep's tail is done today mostly by show farms - and it is nothing less than mutilation for the sake of aesthetics.

I could understand it if the tails of hair sheep caused a problem, but bottom line - they do not.  The main reason that WOOL sheep's tails are docked is to reduce the incidence of Fly Strike, and yes, it is justified.   However, a sheep's tail is there for a purpose - The sheep's tail does *not* interfere with breeding (I mean, _REALLY_, people? Just how many centuries did God have these creatures breeding without man's help and they did just fine!). Primarily it protects the anus, vulva and udder from weather extremes. To some extent, sheep use their tail to scatter their feces.

The point being that in those instances when tails need to be and are docked, there is a right way and a VERY wrong way.  The right way is to ONLY dock it short enough but leave long enough to COVER the anus and vulva (for ewes) ... this means that even after docking, when the tail is laying flat down, it still can COVER (protect) the genitals.  IF you want to "see" the vulva around lambing time, and you are too lazy, too old or just too indifferent to your animals health, then by ALL means, cut their tails off ... after all, YOUR convenience is what is important here.  I have Dorpers and Katahdins and my KaDorpin crosses - all tails are left intact and at lambing time I find that the girls lift those tails often enough and high enough for me to get a FINE view of those really swollen vulvas!  I even keep a pair of binoculars at my back porch and am able to see them without leaving my deck.

The problem is with those who "show" their lambs/sheep.  Extreme short docking, where it looks like they took an ice-cream scoop and sliced out the tail down into the body, is VERY common in the *hair* sheep show ring and they have NO legitimate reason for this.  The specious justification is that it helps show the rear muscling of the lamb, better meat view (sort of like a body builder "flexing") and makes the top line look more level, the legs more square, what CRAP you are basically saying you are mutilating to give the "visual effect" and it has nothing to do with the real animal proportions!  Why don't you just give the sheep injections of Botox??  Or a Silicon boob/butt job??.  It is also argued that it makes it _easier_ for the judges to see the muscling and attributes of the rear end, straight legs, top line and in the rams, the testicles.  By *ALL* means, let's make it EASIER for a judge to do their lame-ass job by mutilating and carving up the animals they are looking at!

So, these "breeders/showmen" are willing to mutilate, to CARVE out the whole ass-end of a sheep so some jerk-off judge can get a better look??
Disgusting!

Don't get me wrong, I love showing animals, but NOT making them go through life threatening mutilation for aesthetics!  Can you say increased instance of RECTAL PROLAPSE (studies prove this)??  No?  Well how about, in ewes, increased instance of Uterine Prolapse??  Certain types of cancer of their cervix, or other diseases from the exposure/mutilation of genitalia?  

And what is truly obnoxious by these "people" who boast about their "_bettering the breed_" and their "_paramount concern for their animals and teaching young people how to properly care for livestock_ ..."  and then they engage in "*extreme* short show-docking" which is *NOT* just taking the entire tail off but ALSO removing "one or two of the vertebra from the end of the spine" (quote below) ... in other words, why don't some of you guys just BEND OVER and let ME scoop out the last one or two vertebrae from the end of YOUR spine!  Damn!  I'll even use topical anesthetic - 2% lidocaine and give you a tetanus shot afterwards!

https://awionline.org/content-types...terly/short-docking-sheep-cruel-fad-show-ring
_"The practice of short docking for the "show circuit" is different—the entire tail is cut off right at the body wall, along with one or two vertebrae of the spine. It is well known within the sheep industry that short docking is an unnecessary practice that can cause serious health problems, pain and suffering. Seven national veterinary, scientific and animal science organizations recommend the practice of short docking be stopped."_​
Here is another research paper:
http://sheep.osu.edu/2008/06/20/tail-length-of-docked-lambs-and-rectal-prolapse/  which reads in part:
_"The American Farm Bureau Federation, the American Veterinary Medical Association, the National Lamb Feeders Association, the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners, the National Institute for Animal Agriculture, and United States Animal Health Association all have position statements or resolutions recommending “that lambs’ tails be docked at the level of the distal end of the caudal tail fold.”
The authors conclude that “Docking lambs at the site where the caudal folds on the underside of the tail attach to the tail *significantly* decreases the incidence of rectal prolapse to negligible levels. Ultrashort docking is a cosmetic fad promoted in the show ring that compromises the health and well-being of sheep. The practice should be abandoned.”  _​
Ok, so much for my ranting, it doesn't bring back my ewe ... she didn't deserve to endure the suffering, the pain inflicted on her when her tail was mutilated as a lamb and she sure as hell didn't deserve to have a rectal prolapse, going through the stress of vets, medications & procedures to try and help/fix her ... to no avail.  She was *not* "coughing", she was *not* on a "feed lot diet", it was *not* "dry weather" with a lot of dust or dusty hay and her minerals were fine (I've never had a prolapsed rectum or uterus in all my time raising sheep, ever) ... in other words, this was DONE TO her by those she trusted to take care of her. Yes, it has been researched, it has been studied and the results show conclusively that when you short dock a tail, taking out the caudal fold, you damage nerves and muscles.  This is not just my "opinion".  I am hoping that if even one novice Hair Sheep breeder reads this and does the research, even just Googles to find out more, they will see that Hair Sheep just don't need to be tail docked, and why do it if it isn't necessary?

Katahdin owners, by and large, understand that their animals do NOT need to have their tails docked, I will be SO happy when Dorper owners grow half a brain and realize this as well!  

Don't bother replying to this if all you are going to do is chide me for being intolerant, because "after all, it is all about individual choice" ...  and that I'm not "understanding" all the intricacies required to establish the high paying reputation of a "show winning" flock, champion bloodlines, herd sires and ewes, or forget it if you think to shame me into backing off one whit!  I am NOT an "animal rights" extremist ... I do not believe that all animal research is torture (some definitely is - spraying perfume into cocker spaniel eyes?  yes!)  My brother-in-law is a childhood diabetic and would not have the gift of insulin were it not for animal testing.  

But THIS has *nothing* to do with research, *nothing *to do with saving human lives and *everything* to do with aesthetics,  mutilating an animal to artificially enhance it's show appearance.  So, if *all *you are interested in is the reputation of champion bloodlines, then YOU need to have some cosmetic surgery done to YOUR genitals ... might I suggest ... piercing or perhaps ... short-docking ...


----------



## Latestarter (Jan 22, 2017)

Hey Kelly, Welcome back. Been a while since your last post. Sorry you lost your ewe. I can tell you're pretty upset about it and the reason that it happened. Now please don't bite my head off, but if you feel so strongly about this, then why did you buy that animal? By doing so, didn't you just more or less support the breeder who did that docking? I mean if people stop purchasing these animals who are docked that way, then the breeder will eventually have to stop doing it. Perhaps if you must purchase from that breeder you could specify that the lamb you wish to purchase should NOT be docked?


----------



## Sheepshape (Jan 22, 2017)

So sorry you lost your ewe Kelly.

I'm no fan of docking either, and since docking has been banned in most dogs over here, long-tailed dogs are now the norm and have very rapidly been accepted that way.

Rectal and vaginal prolapse are known complications of 'over zealous' docking....and a tiny stump which doesn't even cover the anus seems to me to be asking for trouble.

As I mentioned in my post last year, a lot of mine have tails 'as God intended' and they have been no more prone to fly strike than those with shorter tails. That long tail is no issue for mating or during lambing, and a quick 'crutch shave' prior to lambing will dispense with the abundance of fleece if deemed necessary (I don't worry one way or the other).

As it was pointed out to me that there are a few farmers who will dock an adult sheep (old knife, no anaesthetic) I have taken to docking more of my lambs, but the tail is always an inch or two above the knee at most (i.e. well below the vulva). We use a hot knife which seems to give almost no pain as it fries the pain nerve endings and usually no bleeding. Lambs wander off from the procedure and seem utterly unconcerned by their experience.

Kelly, making your feelings known is the only way to get change, and encouragement of others to do likewise.


----------



## Kelly Wolf (Jan 22, 2017)

Hey there Latestarter,    wouldn't think of biting your head off    and yes, I considered this ... the problem I've found is that of the 5 or 6 "premier" Dorper breeders, from here (Texas) to California, they seem to ALL dock    in fact 4 of the 5 SHORT dock ... )  However, the ewe I purchased was not from the original breeder who did this, but from folks who bought her from the original breeder who short-docked ...  They are actually really nice folks, they have a lovely place, they raise Katahdins and Dorpers and none of *their* animals, born on their place are docked at all.  About a year or so ago, they changed their herd sire and bought 3 new ewes ... almost immediately after some family issues arose, grandkids I believe    they decided they are moving from here in Texas to Florida.  They had a choice to make and they  are not going to be country living there, but inside city limits, so were letting their small flock go.  They called me to ask if I was still looking for a new herd sire, I said yes and  I purchased their handsome fellow -  herd sire (3 yrs old and yes, short docked from a Texas breeder, but not "extreme" or Ultra short) and the 2 yr old ewe (extreme short docked from a California breeder) the one that I just put down.

I'm holding my breath that my ram stays healthy, and realistically, he probably will be just fine, he is not AS short as she was - different breeders ... it was just so senseless to loose AnnaSarah (my ewe) - she wasn't a show lamb, but she was just born onto the wrong ranch, with bozos for shepherds.  /sigh  ONE of the websites I found asks for assistance in promoting the more sensible, LONG docking (leaving the caudal fold and then a few cm's more)  and I'm seriously considering it.  I think I need to put some time between my implementing any activism and my soaring anger over this issue    :blush:  I know I have a temper and I need to have a much more tempered attitude  instead. 

Anyway, as I mentioned, if even just ONE novice Hair Sheep breeder does their own research and realizes what's going on with these Hair breeds, it would be worth the high blood pressure!

So, thank you for letting me vent and thanks for the welcome back


----------



## Kelly Wolf (Jan 22, 2017)

Thank you Sheepshape!  I appreciate your reasoned approach!  I certainly understand the wool breeds could need the docking, and I've watched a couple of my wool breeder friends use the hot-docker ... you are right, seems that the lambs shake it off and are back on their feet in no time, almost immediately!  

Almost forgot, my wool sheep friends also do the crutching to reduce all that fluff around their butts and they showed me some pictures of "mulesing"  /grrr  do NOT even get me started on THAT  LOL

I am always so impressed with folks who can look at an issue and not go into nuclear meltdown  LOL  ONE day, when I grow UP I want to be one of those people  lol  since I just turned 65, ya think it might happen soon??  LOL


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Jan 22, 2017)

G'day Kelly.I too am sorry for your loss.But remember its the" Breed Society who set the standards",as I understand it ultra short tail docking is now "banned ' in California. We are continually criticized for our methods of tail docking by local sheep people,but apart from the fact in wool breeds it takes the shearer s a few more "blows" to get the wool off, its of little consequence except in the "old style" wrinkly Merinos from the 40/50s when they thought that the more skin, the more wool.Modern wool producers strive for "plain-bodied " sheep as there is a growing resistance to wool from "mulesing" sheep from consumers and processors.As I understand it Hair Sheep in their country of origin the tails were"never" docked.So how do we achieve change? You could write a letter of "protest" about the practice to a Magazine like "SHEEP",if enough people protest I'm sure they will comment on the practice.In my original post  there is a pic on page two of what is usual for us.. ...T.O.R.


----------



## Baymule (Jan 22, 2017)

Good topic on docking. I am a beginner shepherd. I bought 4 bred Katahdin/Dorper ewes, 2 were docked short, 2 had tails. I haven't docked lambs. I only castrate the ram lambs. I love seeing the whirligig tails going like helicopter blades when the lambs are nursing. I can't see any benefit to docking hair breeds. @Kelly Wolf you can rant all you want, I agree on docking tails.

@The Old Ram-Australia do you use Pat Colby's mineral mix? I bought her book and it just makes so much sense, I have read it over and over.


----------



## norseofcourse (Jan 22, 2017)

@Kelly Wolf - I'm so sorry for the loss of your ewe.

I'm fortunate that my choice of breed (Icelandic) is one of several sheep breeds with a naturally short tail.  I would not want to dock a tail unless absolutely necessary - and for me, "absolutely necessary" does not mean 'for the show ring'.  I appreciate that the system of showing and breeding has maintained and improved many animal breeds, but unfortunately there are plenty of instances where 'show trends' have IMHO been to the detriment of a good breed.

I have heard the name Pat Colby before, but haven't read anything by her yet, I need to put that on my to-do list.


----------



## Bossroo (Jan 22, 2017)

Some of the original reasons for tail docking are:  Fly strike and needed treatments to get rid of the maggots that are eating the sheep alive. When the ewe urinates or has the runny trots, small amounts will fall onto her tail and during the breeding season, the ram's penis comes in contact with these contaminants that are then full of deceases ( moisture + fecal matter = perfect environment for decease organisms )  and he himself becomes infected then infects the ewe as well as other ewes in the flock. If a wool breed sheep has lots of long wool on her tail during breeding season, often the ram will have difficulty to breed her due to his penis not being able to get through the wool or if he does manage to get through her wool, he could infect the ewe as well as other ewes that he breeds next.  If he does manage to get his penis through the ewe's wool, he could injure his penis causing it to bleed . Since blood is a spermicide, any ewe that he way breed will not conceive.   He too may become so sore that he will refuse to breed her or any other ewe.  Result one gets small or no lamb crop . Then if one takes lambs to auction with a messy bottom,  you will take a financial hit for your  lot as it is sold at a discount. I have docked thousands of lambs. I recommend that when you dock the lambs, leave 1/ 2 " to 3/4" of tail stub since when it grows up the tail stub would then be 2" to 3"+  which eliminates most of the issues that the proponents of no docking are not even aware of due to their ignorance or denial


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Jan 22, 2017)

G'day and of course Bossroo you are right in the circumstances you describe.Bit in the case of Hair breeds does it still apply?Down here in Aussie it is common practice to "full crutch" before joining and part crutch before lambing,we on the other hand "full shear" before mating.This results in short growth over winter and in the event of a "cold snap" during the ewes respond by seeking shelter taking their vulnerable lambs with them.So my advice is obtain the equipment and master the arts,even if the cost is "shared" amongst a group who reside close together.In answer to the questions about Pat Colby,yes I do but have modified it to suit our sheep operation over the years,but I do not subscribe to all of her views on animal husbandry,we "do not vax for anything",instead we have developed a form of Natural Immunity by culling ,not trying to "save'" every lamb born and allowing for the natural transfer of "flock knowledge" from one generation to the next.....here are a couple of pic's of the type of animal we produce...1. 12/14 mo sale rams...2.12 mo ewe lambs after their first shearing....T.O.R.


 

 All our stock are totally raised on grass with "no" supplementy feeding.


----------



## Baymule (Jan 22, 2017)

@Bossroo  I am in full agreement with you on docking tails on heavy wooled breeds. It would be cruelty and negligence of the utmost kind to allow an animal be eaten alive because of the filth of poor husbandry and care. I have hair sheep and see no need to dock their tails, or if docked, use common sense and not over do it. What you posted about the ram trying to breed through a long filthy tail also makes perfect sense. If I had wool sheep, then their tails would be properly docked for their own health.

@The Old Ram-Australia your sheep are beautiful, healthy and vibrant with living a good life. I also agree with you that culling for a healthy flock instead of propping them up with every known device makes sense financially and less work on keeping sickly animals alive. Do you mind posting what your mineral mix is? I am not going to exactly copy what you are using, I realize that I have to develop what is best for my flock.


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Jan 22, 2017)

G'day BM,you need to understand that Pats recipe was developed for Dairy Goats,but it seems her publisher decided that it was for all species in an effort to generate extra sales.Firstly you need to know if your soils are naturally alkaline or acid ,we are on acid soils about 4/5 ph with areas of high Aluminium,Acid soils tend to "lock up certain elements and so if "fed to the sheep rather "thrown it about on the ground, you get a better "bang" for your buck.If your soil was higher up the scale the lime input would be designed to achieve the correct Cal /Mag balance.So here is ours its probably a good mid-point to start at.I use a coffee mug as everything is by volume....7 parts Dolomite,4 parts Salt(I use common swimming pool stuff) 2 parts Seaweed Meal (which I buy in 20 kg boxes)I would avoid the liquid if at all possible as you are paying for the water ,rather than the solids.1/2 part yellow Sulfur and 1/4 part of Copper Sulfate(goats are notoriously deficient in Copper,but at such low ratios does not seem to effect the sheep.

I cut the front out of a 20 lt plastic container and hang them on the fence close to their water point.The ewes introduce the lambs to the mix at about 3 weeks of age,don't be concerned if it gets wet ,only the copper degrades and the salt melts ,but it all gets consumed. ........T.O.R.


----------



## Baymule (Jan 22, 2017)

Does the copper in the mix act as a wormer? I don't have a big enough place to rotate the sheep to fresh pastures to control worms, so must resort to wormer as necessary.

I currently give my sheep kelp meal, loose salt, dolomite and azomite. I got the azomite to put in the garden and to try on a couple of the pastures. I noticed the lambs licking fresh dirt kicked up from gopher mounds, so offered them the azomite. They ate it with gusto. It is mineral from an ancient lava flow and has trace minerals in it. The ewes and the ram eat it too. They go crazy for the kelp meal.
http://www.azomite.com/


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Jan 22, 2017)

G'day,perhaps the trace elements are the main problem,perhaps you could post "your" recipe so the group can evaluate.We don't rely on the copper ,we use a range of de-wormers at specific times of the year ,but it's still is only 3 times a year....T.O.R.


----------



## Baymule (Jan 22, 2017)

They get Azomite, dolomite and salt free choice, not mixed together. They get a couple of cups of kelp meal daily mixed with about a pound of pellets. The lambs will lick up the azomite like candy.


----------



## Beekissed (Jan 23, 2017)

After watching how my hair sheep used their tails to rid themselves of flies, I can't imagine taking that ability away from them.  In the summer those tails were going all the time....just think of the poor docked sheep and how they have no defense against the flies.  

I've seen the mutilation they perform to the fair sheep and I can't believe it's still going on, but it is.  What does that teach our young farmers?  That anything goes as long as it helps you win or brings you a bigger price?


----------



## Bossroo (Jan 23, 2017)

The reason that the hair sheep are swishing their tails is that when urinating and / or deficating, a small amount of urine moisture and fecal matter get attached to the tail wool / hair which attracts flies to a feast and to lay their eggs.  Also, this condition during breeding season could very well pass infectous organisms from ewe to ram to other ewes.  Not docking is NOT good animal husbandry.


----------



## secuono (Jan 23, 2017)

I have an issue with blocking or if that's not the right term, where they shave the sheep, but leave wool over bad areas to fill it in. 
People claim it doesn't matter, the judge still feels the sheep. But if it truly didn't matter, they would be slick shorn to show any faults openly and not have thick layers of fluff on those flawed winning sheep.
Drives me nuts! I won't buy a sheep if it's not slick shorn or left alone as a lamb.

Also cannot stand those nasty ultra short docks. And docking on hair sheep should simply not be allowed, beyond pointless. 

I know some breeders of wool sheep leave the natural tail and they seem to be lucky with no issues. But in my area, it's just a ticking time bomb. Sooner or later, the right conditions will crop up for nasty flystrike and I much rather not have them deal with it. They're docked past the caudal fold or hip point. Sure, it covers the lady bits, but I'm already crawling on the ground checking teats, might as well lift a tail while I'm at it. 

I don't crutch either anymore. No point. I'll trim off any lone bits of wool that is too close to teats, but that's it.


----------

