# Sheep sale policy



## Blue Sky (Aug 2, 2016)

Does anyone guarantee their animals? I have a client who wants a replacement lamb after one I sold him died two days post sale. I will probably do it but I learned there are some questionable circumstances. I sold a healthy animal so I'm puzzled and he hasn't provided much information. Comments?


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## TAH (Aug 2, 2016)

If the animals was truly healthy then it shouldn't of died. Did they tell you how it died? I am not sure . @Southern by choice @OneFineAcre @norseofcourse ??


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## Alexz7272 (Aug 2, 2016)

No one I have gotten my sheep from guarantees their livestock. Once the receipt of sales is signed, the animal is then the new owners property and responsibility. I'd look up state laws honestly, around here it is generally considered the buyers responsibility to ensure they are getting what they intended, not the seller. Good luck & sorry!


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## Latestarter (Aug 2, 2016)

Before I'd even consider replacement, I'd want a doctors note from a state licensed vet stating the animal died from something that I (you the seller) would have had to be responsible for. Otherwise, I wouldn't want to send another of my animals into that sort of situation. Just MHO.


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## babsbag (Aug 2, 2016)

I agree with @Latestarter. Too many unknowns. But if it dies from a genetic defect, worms, or cocci after two days then I could see where the seller might guarantee it. But beyond that I don't see how it could be your fault.


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## Blue Sky (Aug 2, 2016)

Thanks everybody. We who shepherd know that sometimes things happen. I'm still trying to determine what happened and I may cross this individual off my buyer list.


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## Baymule (Aug 2, 2016)

I would replace it, but never sell another lamb to this person. One bad customer can bad mouth you to everyone they know.

If in the future you want to guarantee your lambs, then put it writing and make a vet report and autopsy part of the deal--at THEIR expense.


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## NH homesteader (Aug 3, 2016)

It sounds like someone you don't want another lamb to go to.  I would refund their money,  or part of it,  andavoid them after the fact! Maybe write up a liability waiver,  like Baymule suggested.


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## NH homesteader (Aug 3, 2016)

This is what was written  on the paperwork from the goats I bought this year,  if it helps anyone... 

"Terms of sale:
1. We are not responsible for health of the purchased goat(s)  after transfer from our farm. 
2. To maintain our herd's biosecurity,  we cannot accept returns on any sold,  and removed from our farm goats. 
3. At time of sale goat kid(s) have had first shots,  been disbudded by vet,  are healthy and thriving,  and weaned.  We can only comment on genetic lines of Dam and Sire and their performance,  therefore we cannot guarantee any future coloring,  height or conformation,  fertility,  or milk quantities if freshened,  or any other genetic qualities. " (credit to Whistling Winds Farm LLC,  I'm not a word theif! Haha) 

I plan to do the  same or similar.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 3, 2016)

Blue Sky said:


> Does anyone guarantee their animals? I have a client who wants a replacement lamb after one I sold him died two days post sale. I will probably do it but I learned there are some questionable circumstances. I sold a healthy animal so I'm puzzled and he hasn't provided much information. Comments?



Personally I don't feel this is a cut/dry situation.

First, and don't take this wrong, but how do you know the animal was healthy?

Second, how old was the lamb?
Ewe or Ram?
On what day was it weaned?
Did you band or castrate if a ram lamb? How many days before did you do his?

I will expand on this and why I ask... I am going somewhere with this. 

BTW- These things do happen (lambs/kids die suddenly) ... there are factors that should be taken into consideration.


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## NH homesteader (Aug 3, 2016)

I'm curious what the "questionable circumstances"  were.  That could make a difference. Those were the words that made me assume you didn't want to send another one there! 

This happened with a friend of mine who sold a piglet to a mutual friend.  They're both excellent,  experienced pig farmers.  Everyone was a little hot at first but they realized...  Stuff happens.


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## Ponker (Aug 3, 2016)

I hate to say it but I've learned the hard way that even if the lamb is delivered to you riddled with worms, non breed standard, losing its wool, and thin as a rail, you'll play heck getting anything from the seller unless they have some integrity. My recent lamb purchase went this way. Two ewe lambs delivered in the abovementioned condition and I spent $400 each on them and another $400 on the vet (2x to my place)dewormers, probiotics... They were 4 months old and weighed *TWELVE* pounds each! 

It's my own fault for having the nurture response and the "Ohh look at them!" I tried so hard to save the poor little things. I even wrote to the breeder expressing my dissatisfaction (they were still alive). The Vet warned me. He said, "Failure to thrive." They weren't gaining weight and we were trying everything. After they died, the breeder wanted to know what happened , on my farm, that caused their death! Needless to say after I went through the agonizing heartbreak of losing my two dear frail little girls, I wanted to beat the crap out of the breeder for selling them to me as 'Premium Ewe Lambs'. 

But I should have returned them, all the way across Missouri to the breeder who thought they could dump these poor little lambs on me. But once they were on my farm... Anyway, the integrity of the breeder is all that remains. If the death was truly from something that happened only days after delivery, I'd ask WHAT caused the death? Details.

Until we know more about why the lamb died, it's impossible to say if the breeder is 'on the hook'.

I plan on selling lambs next year so I'm on both sides of the issue. I have a plan to put my lambs on top. With a simple guarantee with lambs being within breed specifications upon delivery. Maybe include body condition score and chart with the lamb, a FAMACHA score, and a DAG score with accompanying chart. Documenting the condition of the lamb upon arrival along with recent fecal exam results. Along with OPP, brucellosis, CL, and Johnes negative flock and test results to prove it. I'm going to set the bar high and I'll make a good reputation honoring my guarantee and by provinding great quality lambs.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 3, 2016)

I had a sort of similar experience.
We purchased 5 goats from a lady. Around a month later, we tested them for CAE. Three came back positive. We told the sellers, and they took the 3 back, but did not give us any sort of refund. $500+ loss. 
I know, we bought them, so our fault, but it was/is very frustrating! 
So lesson learned- do not EVER purchase from untested or questionable herds!!! It is NOT worth it!


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## Ponker (Aug 4, 2016)

I heard of a man who purchased 6 lambs and they died within a week. He contacted the seller wanting a refund. When asked why they dies he told them they got into the chicken feed and ate it all! 

Sorry, but that isn't the sellers fault. 

@Green Acres Farm I am appalled the breeder didn't give you a refund. They even got the goats back. And from the sounds of it, probably resold them... (Having a pessimistic day today) It's horrible breeders like this that give the rest of us a bad time. And when there isn't a contract upon purchase, nothing is firmed up. I bet you'd win in small claims court though, but what a hassle.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 4, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> We purchased 5 goats from a lady. Around a month later, we tested them for CAE. Three came back positive. We told the sellers, and they took the 3 back, but did not give us any sort of refund. $500+ loss.
> I know, we bought them, so our fault, but it was/is very frustrating!
> So lesson learned- do not EVER purchase from untested or questionable herds!!! It is NOT worth it!





Ponker said:


> @Green Acres Farm I am appalled the breeder didn't give you a refund. They even got the goats back. And from the sounds of it, probably resold them... (Having a pessimistic day today) It's horrible breeders like this that give the rest of us a bad time. And when there isn't a contract upon purchase, nothing is firmed up. I bet you'd win in small claims court though, but what a hassle.



If the goats were bought without the agreement of the goats being negative for CAE the seller is NOT responsible. They took the risk of buying from an untested herd. The breeder did not have to take the goats back but did. In this case no, small claims would not award her refund. She could have kept the animals.

The other side of this is NO TEST is 100% and truly you cannot guarantee. The best anyone can do is to maintain a tested herd ( yearly). Seeing as how offspring cannot be tested til minimum of 6 months of age and better done at 8 months, when buying a kid that is all you can go on - the results of parent stock.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 4, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> The other side of this is NO TEST is 100% and truly you cannot guarantee. The best anyone can do is to maintain a tested herd ( yearly).




I know, but since 3 treated positive, I felt pretty confident it was accurate. Also, none of our other goats tested positive, just their's.

And yes, I know they were not responsible for the positive test. But when they took them back, it was a big money loss on our part. But I should not complain because it was our choice to buy them and our responsibility.


ETA: Why would they say they wanted them back, take them and not give any sort of refund? We could have sold them for meat... I know, I know... I'll stop.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 4, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> I know, but since 3 treated positive, I felt pretty confident it was accurate. Also, none of our other goats tested positive, just their's.


What I mean by that is that lets say your herd tests negative in Jan 2016... but what you don't know is that you are one number shy of being suspect, 4 shy of positive... meaning the goat is negative but those numbers are right on the fringe. You breed a "negative" animal. Those numbers generally do go up during pregnancy... so 4 1/2 months into pregnancy her numbers are actually in the positive range... she kids... CAE is transferred to kid. Kid is now positive but you would never really give it a second thought because you don't know those titers and all tested negative in Jan.
You sell the kid not knowing, and new owners test kid at 6-8 months and find out the kid is positive.



Green Acres Farm said:


> And yes, I know they were not responsible for the positive test. But when they took them back, it was a big money loss on our part. But I should not complain because it was our choice to buy them and our responsibility.


Yes,  if you did not go to a breeder that tests than risk is on you.




Green Acres Farm said:


> ETA: Why would they say they wanted them back, take them and not give any sort of refund? We could have sold them for meat... I know, I know... I'll stop.


Depending on the circumstances the breeder may know you just want them off your land and is willing to take them back. 

I am a big believer in giving the benefit of the doubt.

We know some people that had CAE come into their herd and it was a miss on the paperwork... it was a horribly sad situation. I could not speak high enough of these breeders. 
I remember hanging up the phone and just crying. They honored every single client and either took the goat back or gave the option for them to keep but with a signed waiver that they had been informed. Many chose to keep the goats and do a prevention because of either the quality, or genetics etc...

Mistakes and accidents DO happen. Grace and mercy is ours to give freely. 

We all learn from our experiences. I am sorry you went through this.

There really is only so much a breeder can do.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 4, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> What I mean by that is that lets say your herd tests negative in Jan 2016... but what you don't know is that you are one number shy of being suspect, 4 shy of positive... meaning the goat is negative but those numbers are right.



I think one of the goats had clinical CAE- she had an inhibition level of 70 and was losing weight, rough hair coat, etc.  Another one of them was borderline positive, but still "negative," so the breeders took her back. 

And you are right, I do need to give the benefit of the doubt. 

On the results there was one thing I didn't understand- a couple of goats had negative inhibition levels. For example -21.561. Was that a mistake?


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## Southern by choice (Aug 4, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> I think one of the goats had clinical CAE- she had an inhibition level of 70 and was losing weight, rough hair coat, etc.  Another one of them was borderline positive, but still "negative," so the breeders took her back.
> 
> And you are right, I do need to give the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> On the results there was one thing I didn't understand- a couple of goats had negative inhibition levels. For example -21.561. Was that a mistake?



When we get our paperwork there are a bajilion numbers  I was like our lab is great at explaining all the numbers and that is how we learn. The way the individual lab sends out the numbers will vary. No not a mistake but you should call the lab and speak with the person who ran the test. They can explain what each number means.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 4, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> When we get our paperwork there are a bajilion numbers  I was like our lab is great at explaining all the numbers and that is how we learn. The way the individual lab sends out the numbers will vary. No not a mistake but you should call the lab and speak with the person who ran the test. They can explain what each number means.


I'll do that.


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## Blue Sky (Aug 5, 2016)

I like the contract and will use it in the future. How did l know the lamb was healthy?  If something happens on my end I own it and  l fix it period. At present we have arrived at a compromise although I can get no details on the death. I suspect an accidental poisoning.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 5, 2016)

Blue Sky said:


> I like the contract and will use it in the future. How did l know the lamb was healthy?  If something happens on my end I own it and  l fix it period. At present we have arrived at a compromise although I can get no details on the death. I suspect an accidental poisoning.



I didn't ask that to offend you or piss you off or make you think there was judgement.

We do a considerable amount of work in the community on many many farms.
A lamb or kid may "appear" fine.

If you are not running a fecal before a lamb /kid leaves your property ( preferably the day before or of) then you have no way of knowing if the lamb didn't have cocci.

A lamb/kid can be bouncy and "normal" and 24 hours later be dead from cocci.
Cocci is a killer and this year has been horrible for so many everywhere, and I mean everywhere.

Cocci does not always present with diarrhea. You will not see unthriftiness until last stage just before death.

What occurred has occurred on many many farms and end result was cocci. Most are not as informed about these things, until something happens.

Recently a 3 month old kid showing no signs of anything ( not my goat kid) happy normal, no issues... nothing... was checked (fecal analysis) because a potential buyer was coming to come see the kid the next day. The appointment was cancelled by the seller!
The fecal showed a 2100 EPG count and 200+cocci. 
She stopped counting cocci at 200 the slide was covered.
How the kid wasn't dead was anyone's guess. 
The day she collected goat was fine... the fecal had formed berries but they were "sticking together"  some would call clump or softer. This in itself could be morning poo or diet. It would not yield a concern.
If the fecal had not been done and the prospective buyer showed up bought the goat took it home, that alone would have killed it within 48 hours. The bloom would happen and the load was already deadly high. This happens more often than people think.

Keep in mind, this is a responsible person- probably much like yourself, yet it happened.

In 2012-2013 season farms left and right had goats dropping dead - sheep same... it was a horribly wet year and it affected sheep/goats like I have never seen. I am seeing that again this year.

Even lambs/kids on prevention can be affected.

So it was not to insinuate poor care on your part in the least. 

In another thread I am going to share what we have seen this year and our own personal experiences.

In our agreement we do the fecal the day the goat is leaving and they have follow up instructions... all records of fecal analysis, meds, preventatives, shots etc are all given. IF a goat dies within the first 10 days a necropsy by our STATE- LAB must be done. NOT by their vet. For us it is a $30 fee and is much more reliable than a vet office necropsy, or field necropsy.

Once the findings are reported we can then best work with the situation.

IF the client did NOT follow through with fecal analysis and findings ( if lab or vet does it) or if we did not do the follow up fecal (which we do require) they are liable if the goat died from a bloom. If respiratory and they did not take to vet or treat they are liable. Respiratory can happen from shipping fever.

Keep in mind we require ALL our clients to take our goat care class. They come for the class and then a different day they pick up the goat.Unless they are far away or out of state then we do the class on the same day. By that point we have already talked extensively and are comfortable with the prospective buyer.
So they are very educated on what can happen, what they should do etc and given several veterinarians to choose from should an issue arise.

We have NEVER had a case of any of our animals dying after leaving our farm, or a case of shipping fever.

But I do have that clause because some buyers no matter how detailed about these things as one can be will look at the goat and think - looks fine- no need.
Grrrr

Of course like the other poster said... goat got into chicken feed bloated... that was the buyers negligence.

It is tough on both sides and I empathize with you.

If the people would share more about the hows and whys etc it may make all the difference in the world.
I know for me it would- I like to give the benefit of the doubt and if there was even an accident because they were new and didn't realize this or that I would probably replace the kid. Each situation is different.

We have walked away from a few animals because we ran the fecal and found the goat's load so high that we didn't feel like it would survive the stress bloom of transport. One we did go back for but the breeder treated the goat and got it in a better position to leave the farm.

For the lamb who knows what happened...  sorry it did and sorry you are having to wonder.


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## Blue Sky (Aug 5, 2016)

I didn't mean to be harsh. And the cocci info is very helpful. As is this whole site so my apologies if I sounded flip. May be related to the 104 degree heat index. Is there a perspiration emoji?


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## Southern by choice (Aug 5, 2016)

Blue Sky said:


> I didn't mean to be harsh. And the cocci info is very helpful. As is this whole site so my apologies if I sounded flip. May be related to the 104 degree heat index. Is there a perspiration emoji?



 

It is a stressful situation. I probably should have tried to word it different. Lately I have been so rushed and I was on a phone for days and so it was very hard to post.

Hopefully I will get to post some threads today... so much I wanted to share with the community. Bizarre year for sure!


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## Blue Sky (Aug 5, 2016)

Thanks Southern.


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