# Pig down!



## Pinecones (Jan 17, 2019)

First- we are remote and without vet access. Don’t tell me to see a vet, it’s not possible. 

 3 weeks ago one of our kune kunes  (6~ months old) got chilled and got frostbite on her ear tips. She was feverish and lethargic and needy the next day when we discovered her. The other kunes were fine. 

We kept her inside for about a week and treated her for pneumonia until she was her restless spunky self again. At the time her symptoms were dark ears and nose, wheezing and ragged labored breathing, coughing, fever, refusal of food and water, and lethargy. 
She spent 2 weeks or so with the other kunes after recovery and was about 90% her old self. Moving a bit slow but eating and being a pig. 

But she went down again and is back in the house with us now. This will be her second night indoors. 
She has no fever and no cough. She is not wheezing or struggling for breath. She drinks well and her urine is relatively clear and odorless. Her appetite is small but she eats small amounts very slowly.  Haven’t caught a poop yet.  

Her symptoms now are bluing of ears, skin, and nose. Intense lethargy. Poor appetite. Jolting with exhaling (not always though). And she goes rigid when I put pressure of any kind on her shoulders. She’s an affectionate pig and is fine with all other touch. Just not her shoulders/neck right now. 

I have no idea what to think.  No runny stool or diahrrea. Back end is clean and normal. Mouth and gums are pink.  No coughing or wheezing. Her temp is fine but her ears and about are blue and cold.   She seems like she’s in pain.  She just wants to bury her face and sleep.  

Treating her for lung infection/pneumonia today doesn’t seem to have changed anything. 
Our other 4 pigs are 110%, excellent health. 

Suggestions would be appreciated. I’m worried she won’t pull through if I don’t know what’s wrong. I haven’t been able to find any literature online about what I’m seeing here.


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## Latestarter (Jan 18, 2019)

Greetings and welcome to BYH from NE TX! So glad you joined us, but sorry for the reason that brought you here. You didn't mention where you're located but frostbite tells me someplace cold. @misfitmorgan raises pigs in central Michigan, so deals with cold/snow/ice/etc. Maybe she can help or offer some feedback, though hers aren't Kune Kunes. Also, I believe @High Desert Cowboy works with hogs in Utah, and they get some pretty cold conditions. By tagging them, I hope one or the other will be along, and there are other pig owners here as well who might be able to help. I listed those two because of the cold. There's a wealth of info, knowledge and experience shared in the multitude of threads. Browse around and see what interesting stuff you can find. You'll get to "meet" folks at the same time. By all means post away when the desire strikes you, especially if you have questions (provide as much detail/info as possible and pictures truly help)... With all the great folks here, generally someone will respond in no time at all. Oh, and we all love pics, so post them anytime you feel the need! Please make yourself at home!

PLEASE put at least your general location in your profile. It could be very important if/when you ask for or offer help or advice. You know, climate issues and such. I recommend at least your state as most folks won't be able to figure out where if you put anything more specific (county, town, street, etc) by itself.  Old folks like me  will never remember from this post & look there first. To add it, mouse hover over Account top right and a drop down will appear. Click on Personal Details and scan down. You'll see the spot for Location. Then go to the bottom and save changes.  Thanks! Hope you enjoy the site!


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## misfitmorgan (Jan 18, 2019)

Pinecones said:


> First- we are remote and without vet access. Don’t tell me to see a vet, it’s not possible.
> 
> 3 weeks ago one of our kune kunes  (6~ months old) got chilled and got frostbite on her ear tips. She was feverish and lethargic and needy the next day when we discovered her. The other kunes were fine.
> 
> ...



Do you have any pictures? Any eye discharge? Is she currently bred?


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## Rammy (Jan 18, 2019)

I was wondering about tetanus. Im a little concerned about the blueness. Worried it means lack of oxygen somehow? Hope you figure it out.


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## misfitmorgan (Jan 18, 2019)

Rammy said:


> I was wondering about tetanus. Im a little concerned about the blueness. Worried it means lack of oxygen somehow? Hope you figure it out.



There is actually more then on pig disease/virus that will cause edema of the ears....aka blue ears.


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## Rammy (Jan 18, 2019)

Oh, ok. I had just seen something about that on a tv show so I got concerned.


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## Baymule (Jan 18, 2019)

I only raise feeder pigs and haven't had to deal with sickness. But I wanted to welcome you to the forum and I hope your pig gets better. 

For dehydration you can make your own electrolyte solution. In a quart of water mix 5 tablespoons of sugar and 1 table spoon of salt. You can syringe a little at a time in the animal's mouth if they are not drinking. Refrigerate the mix, it will last several days, then throw it out. You can make a smaller amount using a pint jar and change the tablespoons to teaspoons. 

Sorry I am not of any help as far as a diagnosis of your pig.


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## Pinecones (Jan 18, 2019)

Location; NW Montana @ 5300ft elevation. It was around 0 the night she got nipped. They were in the barn. Her sister was totally fine though, so there may be a health factor in why the cold got her and no one else?

Eye discharge; a bit of brown staining drainage yes, no goop though

She shouldn’t be bred. She was not with the boar when this happened and hasn’t cycled that we’ve seen. Her sister cycled for the first time about a week ago.  I would be absolutely stunned if she was pregnant. She was only with the boar when they were under 3-4 month old. (The boar is 1 month older)

She isn’t dehydrated. She’s not eating much but isn’t skinny. She is now noticeably smaller than her sister though, so she’s maintaining her weight but not growing.

She ate a large apple and a full bowl of oatmeal with raisins during the night. It sounded like her stomach was jumping/heaving for about 15 minutes after. Occasionally she would burp a little bit. That’s the first time I’ve witnessed that. Nothing came of it though. She’s drinking well and vocalizing softly this morning. Still breathing oddly and very slow to get around. Color is still scary. 


I know bluing is a problem with circulation or oxygenation. Much like chickens. Thats why I’m perplexed. She’s not displaying symptoms of pneumonia. Her symptoms, aside from the bluing, seem pain related.


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## Pinecones (Jan 18, 2019)

Not suspecting tetanus. She has no wounds, punctured, or infections. Her mouth ya working properly. And this is dragging on for many days without decline.


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## Pinecones (Jan 18, 2019)

Dadgum auto correct. Sorry. Her mouth/jaw IS working properly


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## Pinecones (Jan 18, 2019)

Color is still bad but better than yesterday. 

I strongly suspect she’s not full kune. Her skin is normally soft pink with black spots. Her ears are normally pink. Only the very 1/4” tip of the ear got killed with the frostbite. Around her eyes should be clean and light but is stained from runny drainage right now. 

She’s currently weaseling herself into my lap for snuggles, her breath is still sounding pained.


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## Pinecones (Jan 18, 2019)

Forgot a photo here


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## Pinecones (Jan 18, 2019)

Just in the last hour her pink color has started to return to her throughout her body. Those ears should be soft pink with spots! 

(Sorry for lots of little posts, using a smartphone and it’s difficult to navigate. )


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## misfitmorgan (Jan 18, 2019)

She may just have pneumonia still however pneumonia can be an indicator of PRRS.

I believe your pig has PRRS, it is not curable and can/will spread to your other pigs. It is treatable but precautions need to be taken with adults for the first few weeks after symptoms show and esp at farrow, piglets need attention. This link has treatment information.
http://www.thepigsite.com/pighealth/article/142/porcine-reproductive-and-respiratory-syndrome-prrs/
You can test for PRRS if you like with a blood sample 3 weeks after she went off feed the first time.

If she still seems sick after several months and is negative for PRRS, she may have Glassiers disease.

I have listed these in the order of likeliness. It is important you know that it is possible for her to die from any of these things without proper treatment(generally treatment for pneumonia and other secondary infections). If it is the first she will get over it eventually with continued treatment, the second one is not curable however she will develop an immunity and return to being "healthy"  in as little as 6 weeks or as much as 3 months. The third is also not curable.

I am not a vet and can only suggest options of what might be wrong. If she is not truly better in 3 weeks or less....you definitively need to get that blood test done as it had consequences for breeding and the rest of your herd.


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## B&B Happy goats (Jan 18, 2019)

Good luck poor baby


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## Pinecones (Jan 18, 2019)

Did some reading on the diseases. Glassiers disease sounds suspect as fAr as symptoms go, as well as sudden onset and other factors.  I will continue to research this, thank you. I feel it’s more than the pneumonia she had 3 weeks ago. Her lungs are not giving her trouble right now.


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## High Desert Cowboy (Jan 18, 2019)

Does she have any swelling in her joints?  That’s another common sign of H.parasuis.  Another possibility apart from PRRS would be mycoplasmal pneumonia, which does have a tendency to randomly return and stop again.Either option is no bueno, and I wouldn’t let her around any other pig after she gets better until you’ve received results from a blood sample in a few weeks.


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## Pinecones (Jan 18, 2019)

She’s been more active today, slowly  ambling around the house. She ate quite a bit and is still working down a very large helping of yam and apple.   No improvement in color. 

As I watch her I can’t help but notice that her main, if not only, core symptom seems to be pain. She is wobbly on her feet, seems exhausted by standing, and still tenses when you touch her shoulders.  It looks like her body is a very uncomfortable place to be.  She eats slowly but readily between many-hour-long naps and drinks very well. Still no fever, coughing, wheezing, or other lung infection symptoms. Her ears are not edemic, just discolored. Her entire body is discolored.


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## Pinecones (Jan 18, 2019)

High Desert Cowboy said:


> Does she have any swelling in her joints?  That’s another common sign of H.parasuis.  Another possibility apart from PRRS would be mycoplasmal pneumonia, which does have a tendency to randomly return and stop again.Either option is no bueno, and I wouldn’t let her around any other pig after she gets better until you’ve received results from a blood sample in a few weeks.



No swelling anywhere I can detect. I’ve palpated most of her body. Her only guarded area is her shoulders/base of neck.


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## Latestarter (Jan 18, 2019)

Hope you get it figured out...


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## Rammy (Jan 19, 2019)

Is there no way you can transport her to a vet?


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## Latestarter (Jan 19, 2019)

Gee Rammy, the OP was pretty straight up in their opening sentence:


Pinecones said:


> First- we are remote and without vet access. Don’t tell me to see a vet, it’s not possible.


Perhaps you can contact your state university and they can receive the blood test and do the analysis for you. At least you could contact them and if they can't help you, maybe they can point you in the right direction?   http://wimu.montana.edu/
Hope you find that it's not one of the bad diseases mentioned by our pig experts... Good luck and please let us know if you would.


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## Pinecones (Jan 19, 2019)

Thank you for the link and info, latestarter!

There is virtually no agriculture here in the mountains. We learn to vet animals ourselves. The problem with this pig has been not knowing the source of her symptoms.

Well her appetite has been good today. She’s pooping and it looks good. Still drinking plenty. We bathed her and cleaned her up a bit.   She’s got a great improvement on energy.

She’s still got discolored ears, snout, and the skin over her shoulders is blued/very dark.

Her main symptom continues to be discomfort. Especially after eating or exerting herself. Her pain in her shoulders seems to have abated slightly.
She is somewhat wobbly in the hips / uncoordinated with her back legs. We noticed this as well with the pneumonia 3 weeks ago.

I’m continuing with the updates just in case more input comes in. I know symptoms are vague, but a viral or bacterial infection doesn’t “quite” fit the bill. Especially with no marked improvement treating for infection. We are not ruling disease out, I’m just exploring more as we wait to see how this thing turns out.

We were discussing the possibility of injury today. Her bruised looking and painful shoulders/neck area and apparent body discomfort are curious. She also seems to fatigue walking around or holding her head up for long periods. If there is inflammation and swelling in the neck, that could cause poor circulation as well, leading to cold, dark ears.
It’s just a guess. I may try treating for inflammation and see if I get a better response than with antibiotic/antimicrobial treatments.

I dunno. It’s perplexing.  The symptoms are very unusual.
 I’m glad she’s showing signs of slow and steady improvement though. I’m not nearly as worried about her dying now as I am that she’ll get used to life in the house!  Especially since she potty trained herself today...!  :x


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## Rammy (Jan 19, 2019)

Latestarter said:


> Gee Rammy, the OP was pretty straight up in their opening sentence:
> 
> Perhaps you can contact your state university and they can receive the blood test and do the analysis for you. At least you could contact them and if they can't help you, maybe they can point you in the right direction?   http://wimu.montana.edu/
> Hope you find that it's not one of the bad diseases mentioned by our pig experts... Good luck and please let us know if you would.


I was assuming that ment no vet could come out there because they are so remote.


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## Latestarter (Jan 19, 2019)

Well, since no vet access, I guess trying to get a script pain killer like banamine is not an option... 

"Two new products are now available for use in drinking water of swine as an aid in reducing pain, fever and inflammation. Oral-Pro sodium salicylate 48.6 percent and Oral-Pro sodium salicylate 60 percent with 5.7 percent caffeine are now available from Aurora Pharmaceutical."  https://www.porkbusiness.com/article/pain-relief-pigs
https://www.qcsupply.com/oralpro-sodium-salicylate-concentrate-1gallon.html

"ASPIRIN BOLUSES USP
Usual dose:
Note: Although veterinary forms of aspirin are marketed with label indications for treatment of pain, fever, and inflammation, the drug has never been approved by the Food and Drug Administration Center for Veterinary Medicine (FDA CVM) for these purposes...
Fever1; or
Pain1—Pigs: Oral, 10 mg per kg of body weight every six to eight hours.{R-25} If a water supply is to be used for administration, then aspirin at 2 mg per kg of body weight per hour (mg/kg/hr) may be used. For this latter purpose, due to the poor solubility of aspirin in water, sodium salicylate at 1.8 mg/kg/hr may be considered as a substitute."   https://www.aavpt.org/associations/12658/files/aspirin.pdf


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## Pinecones (Jan 20, 2019)

I appreciate the links, info, and input. Thank you!

Our mystery is becoming less mysterious. Her color has returned today throughout her body. The painful area on her neck, however, the skin has turned black and is crusting and starting to slough off. We’re suspecting some pretty intense frostbite happened. How this happened to her and no other pigs (or any other livestock) I don’t know. I’m fairly sure the bluing on her ears and nose are likewise frost burned skin. They have not really improved in color. Her nose is starting to peel, and the skin in these areas has become crusty. 
The only “dead” area are the very tips/edges of her ears, luckily.   I imagine this has been painful and explains her discomfort and the guardedness of her neck area. We are treating these burned areas topically. 
As for the wobbliness in her back end, after watching her quite a bit I realized it’s most likely the shape of her hooves on the hard floor. I will trim her hooves so she has a flatter walking surface and isn’t sliding around on those pointy toes!


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## Mini Horses (Jan 20, 2019)

Would be great if the frostbite is her only issue  

As to why only her, I would look to her having been "left out of the pile" of her roommates, &/or having been lying in a wind area, etc.  where she just got more than she could handle.

It's like a roo who will tuck his head under a wing and one who doesn't.  
At any rate, she seems to want to be a good house-guest by "housing breaking" herself.   Obviously she's sharing the bed with that pup!  Cute.


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## misfitmorgan (Jan 22, 2019)

Glad to hear she seems to be clearing up. I did not realize the pneumonia had been 3 weeks ago, i know you said it but somehow it didnt stick after i read it. I was thinking she only started pneumonia a week ago. Frostbite can be quite the thing and I imagine very painful. Please keep us updated on her.


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## Pinecones (Jan 22, 2019)

She's still stable and doing well.  Her nose is peeling like a sunburn from hell and her ears are scabbing up.  The blackened skin on her shoulders is very hot and is still painful for her.  I've been keeping some soothing antiseptic salve on it.  The one evening I tried picking at it (since it's all crusty and peeling and gross) she was grinding her teeth for about an hour, so I imagine that was super painful and I haven't messed with her skin like that since.  

She went through a lovely phase of going to the door and grunting when she needed to poop or pee, and grunting to be let back in when she was done.  She's backsliding a little bit, darn it, but she's still being a good house guest.  

All the other piggies are doing great, no signs of discomforts or cold exposure.  The kunes have vastly outgrown this little gal, hopefully she'll catch up and still get a chance to breed this year


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## misfitmorgan (Jan 23, 2019)

Pinecones said:


> She's still stable and doing well.  Her nose is peeling like a sunburn from hell and her ears are scabbing up.  The blackened skin on her shoulders is very hot and is still painful for her.  I've been keeping some soothing antiseptic salve on it.  The one evening I tried picking at it (since it's all crusty and peeling and gross) she was grinding her teeth for about an hour, so I imagine that was super painful and I haven't messed with her skin like that since.
> 
> She went through a lovely phase of going to the door and grunting when she needed to poop or pee, and grunting to be let back in when she was done.  She's backsliding a little bit, darn it, but she's still being a good house guest.
> 
> All the other piggies are doing great, no signs of discomforts or cold exposure.  The kunes have vastly outgrown this little gal, hopefully she'll catch up and still get a chance to breed this year



She may not like going outside because it makes the frostbite hurt more. It's similar to getting a burn, heat makes it hurt more...except with cold. You might try a lidocaine topical, something suitable for tattooing or piercing, that should be safe for a wound. I've personally used derma numb which is a numbing spray while getting large tattoos and it does work well though not for long. It may give her some relief and many also have healing products in them.


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## Stephine (Jan 23, 2019)

How’s the piggy today?


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