# Weight and price of different cattle



## COWGUY1123

Hi, I have a small backyard herd of cattle and was wondering if people on here could help me out. I am going to start selling my cattle in a year or two and was wondering how much they would be worth(BTW i live in Western North Carolina right next to Georgia and can travel to Tennessee). In about one to two years this will be the age of my cattle. An 8 year old full Jersey milking cow. A 2 year old  full jersey steer(wont cost anything to feed next winter. have plenty of pasture for him). A 23 month old full Holstein bull. A 26 month old full black Angus bull( at under eight months was over 600# for $1200). Last but not least, a 26 month old jersey/Holstein mix girl.None of the above cattle have been bottle fed for more than a week and all of them got their colostrum. Will try to post pics of them as they are right now at the ages of 6 year old jersey milk cow. 8 month old black Angus bull. 7.5 month old jersey/Holstein heifer. 7 month old jersey steer. And a 5.5 month old Holstein bull. If anyone could give me an estimated worth of my cattle as they are now and in 1-2 years it would be much appreciated. All have been wormed as well.Within the next month or so I will have(fenced in) 1.5 acres of good tall fescue grass,2.5 acres of good tall fescue grass, 3/4 to 1 acre of tall fescue grass, 1 acre of good tall fescue grass, and about 30 acres of land with tons of littleish trees with leaves along with tons and tons of kudzu. So and advice is also welcomed and appreciated.


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## jhm47

If I were you, I'd get rid of the Holstein bull ASAP.  He will be getting dangerous soon if he's not already.  He should bring up to $1.40 /lb or more if he's in good shape.  All of them are worth quite a bit right now, but the cattle market can change very quickly.  Right now is a better time to be a seller than a buyer.


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## COWGUY1123

Thanks and he is going to be in a pasture where I dont have to handle him very much if at all until sale time. Imma try to get the pics up tomorrow of my cows. Also do you know how much a larger Holstein bull weighs at 6 months?


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## Bossroo

If I  were you,   I would sell off ALL of the bulls like    YESTERDAY    .   All Bulls especially dairy type bulls are seriously  dangerous. Many dairymen have been crippled and killed by the dairy type bulls.    May not necessarily be you,  but bulls have a very strong urge to reproduce and go crashing through fences to breed the nearest cow anywhere in the county. Any car on the road may end up in the ditch.   Any person in the way will be in grave danger.   Then come the law suits.   Are you ready to loose your shirt  ?  Just not worth the risk of keeping a bull when AI is readily available.    Best of luck to you !


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## WildRoseBeef

If you have no plans for the bulls get rid of them now. Especially that Holstein, he's going to wreak more havoc for you than what he's worth, and it's going to start very soon. A 6 month Holstein bull may weigh around 500 to 600 pounds if he's in good shape.


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## COWGUY1123

This is the Holstein Bull. 




This is the Holstein/jersey cross heifer




This is the jersey steer.




This is the Jersey mom.Feed her 2-3 gallons of grains and corn but she still stays skinny




This is the Black Angus Bull.




This is a picture of them.




 Another pic of the steer.

Now my questions are: when a female is in heat does the one in heat ride the other ones or do the other ones ride her?; How much would I be able to sell these as is at or near the Sweetwater TN livestock auction or to other local farmers in the hills of Western North Carolina?;How much would these sell for in a year or two if the market were to stay the same? At what age will the Angus bull be ready to do his mission?; What is the youngest reccomended age to breed a Heifer? Thanks in advance.


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## WildRoseBeef

Don't take this too bad but here's what I'd do:

Sell the bulls ASAP. That Angus bull is not worth keeping as a sire as he has really poor structure that would make his calves be just as bad as him, and being poor stock even as beefers. So I wouldn't worry about wondering when he'd be ready to breed. If you can't get rid of him quick, steer him. If you don't want to get rid of the Holstein either so quick, steer him too, and as soon as possible.  The longer you wait the higher stress the castration process will be. Then feed them up and get some weight on them. Then you might consider sale of them in a year when they're feeders. But if you're going to keep them as bulls, get rid of them now. Both of them.

That Holstein bull looks a bit lighter than 500 lbs, I'd peg him at around 400 lbs (the Angus bull will be a little heavier, like around 500 to 600 lbs), since that hair can hide a lot of the "look-like" weight estimate.

The girls you can keep, they look like they have potential as nurse cows for some calves you'd pick up from some dairy farms or sale-barn as unwanted calves, which you can wean and sell off later.

When the girls are in heat it can go either way. But the one that is in standing heat is the one that will stand to be mounted (stand under and not try to move away). When they're not in standing heat but going in or out of heat they might try to mount others, and their vulva will also look more swollen than normal. You could tell which one is in heat by the special attention that the males pay to her.

If you want to keep the females get the heifer separated from the bulls to avoid any early pregnancies. Nothing's worse than a heifer calf that is calving too early and has potential for calving troubles when she's ready to pop. The best age to get that heifer bred is at 14 to 15 months, no earlier.

For prices you'll have to check with your local auction mart to see what current prices are. There's no guarantee that prices are going to remain the same next year as they could begin to decline as per the 10 year cattle cycle, and there's no telling if the estimated price for animals that are older will be what we may say they are now. The difference in prices could be as much as a dollar or 10 cents.


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## COWGUY1123

In what ways does the black angus have bad structure.(not trying to sound rude) also when i bought the holstein bull as a baby, the farmer said he was a really big one(getting another holstein bull calf today) and he was raised on cows milk not formula, i feed him a gallon of grain and corn a day and he has had unlimited grass/hay.Do you have any imput on my other cows? Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. It is greatly appreciated.


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## COWGUY1123

The other farmer that i bought the ba bull from said that the bull looked like it weighed over 600 lbs. it might be the pictures makin them look skinnier.


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## jhm47

It's really hard to tell sizes from pictures, so no guess from me.  As to breeding your cows/heifers---if you really want trouble, just let the Holstein bull breed either your Jersey cow or the heifer.  Holsteins are notorious for very large calves, and breeding one to a Jersey would be disastrous.  If you don't mind a huge vet bill, and the prospect of losing a calf and probably the heifer or cow, just keep the Holstein bull around.  I notice that he's even got horns yet.  You're playing with fire!


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## WildRoseBeef

Glad you asked.  I look at the Angus bull and I see he's very short in body, with a shallow heart-girth, poor feet structure (though it's hard to tell with the dried grass whether his feet are slightly toed out, I think I can see with the front feet especially), and I don't like how he stands post-legged (back legs too straight and not squared up, more under him). He's also shallow in the back end, and his shoulder placement is rough. He's too "steery" for me to even consider him a good bull, because even at 8 months he should be showing a neck crest and more bully characteristics (like more muscling), but I'm not seeing it here. A good bull should have nuts, guts, and butts, and he has none of that. The two--no, three--biggest red flags for me is his imbalance of fore-body to the rear (his head seems a bit big for his body for some reason), his heart-girth and poor leg structure. You're better off getting a much better bull via AI semen straws for your girls. And the fact that he looks 6 wt. to the old farmer is also telling. At 8 months he should be a couple hundred pounds heavier and more fuller looking.

The only animal I like out of the group is the Holstein heifer. She looks like she's got potential. But that Jersey cow's feet really needs some care and some trimming. She looks like she's been back on her heels for a long time, because those toes don't grow like that over night. You'll need to find some way to get her feet trimmed up a bit.

Other than a high recommendation of castrating your bulls ASAP, the animals just need a bit more TLC because they are a bit underweight. That can be easily solved with some grain or a high-energy, good-protein supplement, and if they don't have it, a salt-mineral lick (loose is always recommended, though some like block) as well.


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## WildRoseBeef

The other problem that could be solved is how the picture was taken with that Angus. It seems like it has been taken with you sort of standing over the shoulder. Try kneeling down some distance away and aiming the camera straight at the shoulder. Might be able to see a better perspective of how he looks. And I know he still has a bit of growing to do and with good feed he could fill out a bit more, but I just think he's not going to be a good bull that's good enough for your girls. And there's no telling what kind of calves he might throw, whether they're going to be big or not. 

Besides, what would you do with the calves that you would get from the cow and heifer? Are you planning on selling them or raising them for the freezer?


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## COWGUY1123

Actually the heifer is the jersey cows baby. The bull that was bred to the jersey was an 1800-1900 lbs. Holstein and I wasn't even around when she gave birth. I guess I got lucky. The Holstein bull, the BA bull, and the jersey steer actually just got moved to another pasture. Another question I have is (just got a three day old 3/4 holstein-1/4 jersey bull calf) can baby calves have razor sharp teeth or do some just bite hard when they suck for milk because my big jersey cow was suppose to be the milk mother for the new baby but she won't let him hardly drink (she keeps kicking him). So, I put together some milk replacer and tried to give it to the calf and it drank some but then went straight for my fingers and bit one of my knuckles and I was bleeding for a good while?(the jersey mom will let just about any calf milk off or her)


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## COWGUY1123

WRB- Today or tomorrow i am going to try to get some better pictures of the BA now that he is out of the pen (the reason the photos were not very good) and in one of the pastures.I will get different angles of him. The Jersey cow I haven't even had for a single year yet but you should've seen just how bad she was before I got her. Literally every day I feed the Jersey cow 2-3 gallons of protein feed and corn. I give the same amount to the BA bull. I give the other three calves a bit over a gallon each of mixed shredded corn and protein feed. They all have access to a mineral block with salt in it(got to get them a new one this week). As for the calves, I am not eating them but am going to sell them. Oh, also do you know how I might get the mom to let the calf drink? The cow is really nice it is just that the new baby bull calf bites when he sucks and I think it hurts her udders' teats. I am going to also get pics of the new bull calf.


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## WildRoseBeef

I think it's going to be up to Nature to get the calf to learn to not be biting down so hard on the teats. The calf will have to learn one way or another, and the best way is to get his surrogate mom to teach him. Meanwhile, you might have to bottle-feed him if she hasn't been feeding him and he's quite hungry, but not enough that he's going to be too full to go try and suckle on her. 

How much corn and how much protein feed, each (to make up the mixed supplement), are you giving your animals (versus what you mentioned that I assume is all together in a mixed supplemental ration)? What's the crude protein content of the feed? I just wonder if you should increase the corn ration and reduce the protein ration, but can't say anything until I have some answers to the questions I asked you, especially seeing the condition these guys are in. 

Some helpful information on meeting nutritional requirements for your dairy cattle: http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/163334/realistic-rations-1.pdf 

This is also helpful if you scroll down past pg. 20: http://extension.psu.edu/animals/da...ng-and-management/management-of-dairy-heifers

This too is good for knowing rules of thumb for beef cattle, especially for the Angus bull (hopefully turned steer soon  ): http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex9146


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## COWGUY1123

First off everyone is getting half corn and half protein feed(ex. 1 gal. of what they get is 1/2 gal. corn and 1/2 protein feed). Like i said, the steer, Holstein bull and mixed heifer each get a gallon of the corn and protein feed mix daily. The Ba bull and the jersey cow are getting 2-3 gal. of this mixture daily. Not sure on the crude protein content of the feed(can ask the guy monday). The ne will go up to her and continuously try to drink( he drank for several minutes today with the cow kicking at him and i fed him two pint of milk replacer.


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## WildRoseBeef

Sounds like the calf is slowly starting to get it, and probably the cow too. Keep an eye on the udder and teats though for any issues that may come up if the calf is persistently hard on the teats when he suckles.

How long have you been feeding them this ration, and have they been on the same sort of ration since you bought them or since they were previously owned? And how long have you had these animals? Just need to get a sense of how long they've been in this condition and how long they've been on this sort of supplementation. Don't want to say anything yet, as I said, but I'm suspecting that they're getting too much protein and not enough energy. Can't make cattle gain on protein, and often an 1:1 ration of energy to protein isn't balanced enough for cattle like these.


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## COWGUY1123

I bought the jersey mom about 10 months ago. After she gave birth to the heifer I have been feeding her 2-3 gallons of mixed feed a day(last eight months). The BA bull I have been feeding like this since i got him about a little less than a month ago. The rest (which I've had from nearly birth) have been fed a gal. a day since 3 to 5 months of age. They have gotten this ration since i bought them. Oh and the jersey cow is now letting the calf drink on its own.


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## greybeard

I can't add anything except that might be the shortest length 8 mo old Angus bull I've ever seen. Like has already been said, he's way out of proportion--just bad genetics. He looks more feminine than bullish--looks a bit like a steer. Use your knife.
8 months old, he is probably already trying to be a bull. Honestly, I wouldn't let him breed anything. Or go ahead and sell him now intact. He would bring around $1.70-$1.85/lb here just like he's pictured, minus  commission and yardage fees. 

My nearest neighbor, a lifelong cowman, came close to getting killed by a 24 month old dehorned Jersey/Holstein cross bull less than a week ago. Hit him square in the gut, flipped him up in the air and commenced trying to push my buddy thru the ground. Only thing that saved him was the bull was dehorned and tied to a tree and the bull eventually pushed him out of rope reach. I'm going over Friday to help load him out. If it hadn't been Easter weekend, he would have been in the ring Saturday.


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## COWGUY1123

Honestly I think that the picture of him that i took just wasn't very good because I think he looks a bit longer real life


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## greybeard

That is possible, especially if your photo software compresses the file when it resizes the image to get it to fit. But the thing that sticks out, is the length of the neck and head in comparison to the rest of the body, (from shoulder back) and the forearm/elbow just looks strange as heck--might be how he's standing, but the angles of his front legs are not impressive. 
Now, I've seen more arguments and hurt feelings over interent bull critiques than any other livestock subject, and I sometimes forget where I am when I come to BYH. BYH is more about "Oh how cute--he's so pretty--What's his name" than it is about honest critiques.. For my cattle, if someone sees something wrong with one of them that I don't, I WANT to know--especially with bulls.  I really don't care how cute one is--I want to know if it can do it's job--put $$ in my pocket. 

When I take or look at photos of a bull, I look for or try to get a front qtr shot and a rear qtr shot as well as a full side view. WRB mentioned "guts, nuts, and butt" It's what we all look at for an indication of how well he can do in breeding season. A large gut means he can hold lots of forage instead of having to constantly eat--this allows him to spend more time checking out the girls and get his doin done. Big butt indicates good muscling, and not a "hatchet a**". That term means, from a side view, it looks like someone took a giant hatchet and just cleaved off his butt straight down even with his rear legs. I want to see some roundness back there--some big rump booty to put that kardassian woman to shame.. "Nuts" is self explanatory--want plenty big ones, and it's measured in circumference in centimeters. Can't see them in your picture, but they would in a shot taken from front qtr or rear. In Angus, minimum acceptable size at 365 days is 30 cm, but 32-35 cm may be a more comfortable minimum.
http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_size_matter

Just for illustration, here's one from my place, a simmental/Charolais cross about 8-9 months, maybe younger, that we sent to salebarn last year. I really liked his rump, his crest is visible only slightly because of his ear, but it's there, and he has good muscling in the chuck area--BUT, he's a little shorter in length than what I really wanted to see, has a small heart girth compared to other bull calves I've had from the same bull, and I REALLY didn't like his front legs or his belly line. He seemed to be short strided--his rear hooves should pretty much fall in the hoof print left by his front hooves--an indication he can do plenty of traveling while checking out the girls every day. Just not herdsire material for cow/calf production for me, but a pretty good commercial yearling for freezer beef or feedlot. (I drew a white line down his butt to show what a hatchet a** would look like)
IOW, this is a cull. Feel free to critique this one or any others I might post--ain't gonna hurt my feelings in the least. 






Here's another one about 2 yrs old that I wish I had not kept. Not much rump, short for a Beefmaster and sterile to boot.


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## Bossroo

I agree with what Greybeard has to say on all of these counts.  COWGUY ...  PLEASE open your eyes and mind ...  carefully study Greybeard's young bull photos and those are his culls which are light years better quality than any of your stock.  With what feed that you are pouring into your cattle  , you will have a very hard time to  recoup the costs as dairy animals ( including that Jersey cow) as well as their crosses and the Angus bull calf just doesn't have the conformation to produce enough edible meat to be of any real value.  As such, you are LOOSING MONEY  with every mouthful. Also, your bull calves will soon become quite dangerous to you and everyone else , so Sell all of your stock  NOW and with their proceeds, buy a much better quality  beef breed animal or two to finish or if a female to breed AI in the future !


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## WildRoseBeef

After 10 months of having that cow I would expect some more condition on her. I think you need to switch up the rations so that you're giving them 2/3 grain and 1/3 protein mix. Gradually change to that supplementation (it'll take over a week, because their rumens need time to adjust) and stick with it for the next month or so to see how that goes with them.

I've been involved in raising stocker steers since I can remember, and the reason those steers were made into steers were for the exact reasons that Greybeard mentioned. After I have learned more about bovine conformation I began to see why we've gotten the kind of steers we have and why they weren't suitable bull material. Essentially, we were buying the bull culls from cow-calf operations that were destined for the meat isle of the grocery store. I've seen steers with terrible conformation from short-bodied like yours to pigeon-toed feet, shallow heart-girths, roached backs, and poor temperament. And I've seen some pictures of bulls that shouldn't be bulls too!! I would like to see some better pictures of that bull of yours (no rush, of course), but I've a feeling that he should be cut or banded ASAP, or sold as a feeder bull. 

Now, Greybeard showed you some young cull bulls, I'm going to show you some pics of some steers that were rightly castrated (and I'm not trying to be a copy-cat...)





A Red-factor Charolais. Notice the shallow heart-girth, back legs are toed-out, and short-bodied. He's got a bit of a hatchet-butt too.





Red Angus steer. He's got a badly arched (roach) back, post-legged, and his back and front feet and legs (did I mention he's a posty?) are not good. He is also shallow in the heart-girth and short in body, and he is imbalanced with his rump (too shallow in the back end), and underline as crappy as GB's Simmi-Char cross bull calf. 

Last one (as I can go on!):




Angus steer that's short-bodied, heart-girth not the greatest, but back feet are toed out and he's another posty. His front feet are also not where a producer would like to see on a breeding prospect. I also don't like his top-line either. 

One time we had three bulls that I found and separated out from the steer herd so they could be cut. They acted a bit "wild," (they attempted to escape twice, the bottom one tried to climb the fence) and their conformation was something that any good bull breeder would cringe at. Bad legs and feet, shallow heart girth, overall terribly imbalanced. And we, the background/stocker farm family, ended up with them.


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## greybeard

Pretty good info here:
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/anatomy-of-cattle.191/page-3


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## COWGUY1123

I honestly don't think that you can tell that much about a bull by a single picture or maybe even a thousand pictures I think that you would just have to see them in person. I might (might) buy a different angus bull this saturday at a local annual bull sale. And Bossroo you don't have to feel the need to insult my cattle. Just about everyone that I know who are cattle farmers from here say that my bull, my steer, my heifer, and holstein bull look really good. They do say that the mom looks light but that is just about it. They also estimate their weights differently than you people on here. I have been really busy since last saturday helping some of my neighbors with their different projects and i'll try to get  more pics up by saturday.


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## greybeard

What part of the world are you from? (general geographic location)
Never mind, I missed where you stated you were in the E. Tn/W. NC area.


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## goatgurl

@COWGUY1123 i honestly don't think that Bossroo or any of the others are trying to insult your cattle.  i think they are trying to point out the bad qualities and save you some money in the long run.  it costs just as much to feed a poor bull as it does to feed a good one.   and about castrating the bulls, i worked on a large dairy farm for several years and let me tell you Holstein and jersey bulls get mean at a young age and i don't mean cranky i mean aggressive want to plow you into the earth mean.  and it only takes once for them to injure you badly.  if you want to keep them to sell for meat later then do what you want to do but please for your safety at least castrate the bulls.
and @greybeard if you have any more you plan to cull you can send them to my house.  i don't even mind if they are sterile..


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## greybeard

I think my next bull is coming out of the ArkLaTex--from a New Boston Tx Polled Hereford breeder.


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## Bossroo

COWGUY1123 said:


> I honestly don't think that you can tell that much about a bull by a single picture or maybe even a thousand pictures I think that you would just have to see them in person. I might (might) buy a different angus bull this saturday at a local annual bull sale. And Bossroo you don't have to feel the need to insult my cattle. Just about everyone that I know who are cattle farmers from here say that my bull, my steer, my heifer, and holstein bull look really good. They do say that the mom looks light but that is just about it. They also estimate their weights differently than you people on here. I have been really busy since last saturday helping some of my neighbors with their different projects and i'll try to get  more pics up by saturday.


cowguy ... I am NOT trying to insult your cattle ...  I,  as well as others here are just trying to get you to open your eyes to what you could have given a proper model to follow. Several successful cattle breeders here have been kind enough to provide photos of what they are producing as well as their comments on them as to why they don't measure up to stay as bulls and end up as sides of beef. Also a link to cattle anatomy.   Reality of bull temperament , genetic physical characteristics , husbandry practices  and the marketplace ends in  either a profit or loss.   I wish you the best of  luck !


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## OneFineAcre

I'm not a cow person, but I'm curious as to why you have so many bulls?
You had a holstein bull and the angus bull in your first post, and then you got another holstein bull I believe and your last post you were talking about getting another Angus Bull. And you've only got the one cow and one heifer.  That's a lot of bulls for just two cows.
Most folks don't keep a bull at all for two cows, cheaper and better to do artificial insemination.
My FIL raises angus mixed beef cows.  He keeps a registered angus bull (or two) for his, but he has about 70 cows I think.  He used to do AI, but he's 85 years old now, so he lets the bull do the work.
Are you planning to steer the Holsteins?


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## COWGUY1123

I was going to buy another angus bull if I sell the onehave already got. As for the 2 holsteinbull as they are going to be sold later as bulls ( maybe steers). Im goimg to go take some pics right now and then post em when I get back


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## COWGUY1123

This is the new bull Calf



 

Here are more pics of the ba bull.


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## SheepGirl

He lacks muscle; especially for a beef animal you want muscle as that is what you eat. Cull him, don't breed him. He won't make meaty babies at all, even if he is an Angus. His genetics don't have typical Angus muscling.


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## BrownSheep

Your new baby is pretty darn cute. 

I would have to side with the others about his confirmation...I may have missed it but have you wormed recently?


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## WildRoseBeef

CowGuy, no one is insulting your cattle, not even Bossroo. On here we typically--most always--tell it like it is because, as was said, we care about how well you would and should do with cattle and so that you can actually get something from them and reduce your costs, and those costs don't just mean feed bills, either. Good cattle with good temperament, conformation and feed efficiency are less likely to run you into problems than bad cattle or someone else's culls.

Having a look at that bull I can tell you, as a past backgrounder and a (hopefully, lol) future cow-calf producer, that he definitely needs the knife or band ASAP. The lack of muscle on is rump is evident as SheepGirl said, and I do not like the structure of his feet or legs. He lacks nuts, has a funnel butt (same concept as hatchet butt), but has some gut (not a whole lot), and it's plain to see his shallow heart-girth. At 8 months I expect a lot more muscle and weight on him, but he isn't anywhere near what I could consider a good bull that I would use if I had cows. Even with excess feed, an extra layer of fat isn't going to hide those structural weaknesses.

Please cut him and all your other bulls and I would also highly recommend that you don't consider keeping any future stock from your heifer or your cow as bulls. Besides, a bull for only two cows isn't the best idea. One bull can cover at least 10 to 30 cows or more in a breeding season, and when he gets all testosterone-hyped, he'll be trying to get through the fence more than once to service some other neighbouring cows in heat. I've heard that Angus are notorious for breaking out of their enclosures. They can be just as bad when trying to handle them.

To get a good bull, you need to have some really good cows, and these don't stand up to par except as stock you can sell steers and excess heifers from. It's actually a lot harder to get good breeding stock than it seems, and you really have to have your eyes open to any weaknesses any of your animals have, as well as the criticisms from others.

The best thing to do for those two girls you have is to breed them via AI to a good, easy-calving Angus bull to get some worthwhile, meaty, dairy-cross calves to raise and sell at weaning. Or, find a neighbour that has a great Angus bull to breed them to and rent him out for a few months to get them bred.

But PLEASE get all those bulls castrated ASAP. You won't regret it in the future. Even the cute calf, he's a looker and I like his colouration, but I don't see him as a future bull prospect. Keep him as a steer for as long as you want to.


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## Latestarter

CowGuy... just my 2 cents... you seem to be doing the "oh yeah? well I'll show YOU!" thing here. Nobody is trying to insult you, and you shouldn't take the criticism personally. These folks have YEARS of experience and knowledge that they are willingly GIVING to you... as in FREE!! They're trying to HELP you! Instead of trying to "fight back" and "rationalize" your situation/position, step back and HONESTLY hear what these folks are trying to explain to you, and then look again at your situation with OPEN EYES and an OPEN MIND. 

Try to remember... it's no skin off their backs, and no $$ out of their wallets no matter what choices/decisions you make. Of course your neighbors and the folks who sold those animals to you are going to say they look great. The neighbors would be afraid to say anything other than that for fear of insulting you (or your cattle). They have to live with/near you. These folks here have no axe to grind either way. They can be honest and straightforward and there's no reason for them not to be.


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## greybeard

Let's start over........
(preface--I haven't said much about the dairy animals-I'd be talking "out of school--I am not a dairy guy)
Cowguy, what are your goals for this herd? 

If it's just to buy and sell, as the market drops and rises, then you you have about an even chance of making a few $$ assuming you buy the drops and sell on a good day. "even" because ya never know what the market in any given area will be at any given salebarn on a week to week basis--much less a year or 6 months down the road. I've seen cattle sell at a premium locally one week, and the next week, with the same buyers present and a comparable bunch of animals everything but the best running thru the ring got discounted.

This is a form of backgrounding, tho backgrounding usually means you buy calves, raise them for a period of time, and sell at market weight to go to feedlot.

But, if you are wanting to start a cow calf project as room and budget allows and sell the weaned calves, you are top weighted with bulls compared to females. This isn't 2013-2014 when there was a strong rising market for anything that could walk thru a sale ring. I do expect, the market will stay strong thru spring and fall of this year, as more heifers are being retained by producers to increase the national cow herd size. Heifers the last few years (2012 thru fall 2014) have made up about 1/3 of the market share as everyone took advantage of high prices--but the current and ongoing heifer retention (keeping them on farm and ranch for breeding) is going to put "some" upward price pressure on the market for the next year--year and 1/2--IF, demand stays strong in the consumer end of things. IMO anyway.
With the herd individuals you have, I would try to target a sale period to coincide with summer--maybe late spring. Demand for beef increases at that time as bbq season starts off and America loves it's grilled burgers--it tapers off after Labor Day.
Most recent market reports for Ga:
http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/tv_ls145.txt
Tenn:
http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/ra_ls755.txt
NC sale barns: (pick one close to you and click to see the market report)
http://www.ncagr.gov/markets/mktnews/cattle.htm







If you are just looking down the road as an investment--a payday--Just remember, th longer you keep one (or a bunch) the more $$ you have tied up in them, and the less profit you really get.
With your over populated bull herd, it won't be long, before you are going to see some fights break out, and they'll tear down 1/4 mile of fence to get at each other. btdt. A knife will cure almost all that. Get them dehorned too!!

If you want one for your own freezer:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with intact bull beef on a plate--IF it's a young bull. Personal preference, but I actually prefer it.

And, there's an intangible that lots of us are exposed to and can't shake no matter how little financial sense it makes-we just like to keep some cows around.




(If you can't see/hear the video, here's what it says:
(property of Corb Lund and the Hurtin' Albertans)
_Well everything is better with some cows around
Livin in town sometimes brings me down
Let me bestow this western blessing share what I have found
May you always have cows around
What else you gonna spend that extra money on
What else is gonna get you up hours before dawn
What else is gonna keep toiling on and on and on
May you always have cows around
Cmon you know that you got too much time on your hands
Not merely enough complication in your plans
You need to invite all the frustration that you can
May you always have cows around
Everything is better with some cows around
Livin in town sometimes brings me down
Let me bestow this western blessing leave you saddle bound
May you always have cow around
What else can make the bishop swear like a sailor might?
What else can cause such tension between a man and his wife?
What else could ever bring all these enhancements to your life?
May you always have cows around
What else is gonna get out when ya dont close the gate
What elsell make ya prematurely show your age?
What elsell take a run at you in a fit of bovine rage?
May you always have cows around
Well everything is better with some cows around
Livin in town sometimes brings me down
And although this western blessing leaves you cattle bound
May you always have cows around



What kinda cows Corb?
Well theres Hereford, Highland, Simmental, Welsh Black and Maine-Anjou, Chianina, Limousine, Shorthorn, Charolais, Watusi too, Texas Long Horn, Coriente, Ankole, Galloway, Red Angus, Brahma, Brangus, Jersey, Guernsey, Holstein, Hey!
Well ya mighta had to let em dig for oil and gas
Ya mighta had to turn the place to an exotic game ranch
Ya mighta had to do all things to raise the cash
So youd always have cows around
How else ya gonna lose it all like daddy did
What else will make sure you leave nothing for your kids?
Its too late now you know it is you might as well admit
That you're a barely floatin, sentimental, masochisticness
And that despite all the statistic and the advice that you get
You will always have cows around
Ya everything is better with some cows around
Livin in t own sometimes brings me down
Well you wont know what youre missing till ya hear that sound
May you always have cows around
May you always have cows around
Mooo moo_

Tomorrow morning, I am again going to help my neighbor load a Jersey bull that hit him in the chest a few weeks ago, flipped him in the air and tried to push him thru the Earth. Only thing that save him was the bull was tied and finally pushed my friend out beyond his reach of the rope length. We're both in our 60s and he doesn't have a loading chute, so it's gonna be back the trailer up to a tree the bull is tied to--a rodeo with ropes and dogs and cussin and jumpin. I'm just glad that bull is dehorned.


----------



## Sweetened

I am new to cattle, but will share with you a quick story about bulls.

A friend of mine has been a cattlewoman sincr she was born onto a large cattle ranch. She got out of beef and into dairy when she went on her own and had been in the buz 12 years when she bought herself a jersey bull calf. She raised him as a bottle baby hoping to sequester that bad side they are notorious for. He had a routine, brushed daily, hand fed, walked, used as a working ox once weekly. She took him to shows and walked him via a collar, not his nose ring and so on. She would have put a screaming newborn child at his feet and trusted him.

About a decade later, she was feeding him i  the roubd pen, brushing and shaving him in prep for a show. She turned around to walk out and he did all he could in the world to kill her. Her husband heard her screams and used a high powered cattle rod to get him off her. He instabtly snapped out of his rage and was like the baby they knew, but there had been no provocation. She is very lucky to be alive. He broke her hips and pelvis, shattered her rib cage, broke her tibia, dislocated a shoulder and screwed a knee.

Because he was so valuable and produced such high quality offspring, he was used to breed again that year and sent for slaughter.

Most people even with bottle bulls, dont make it that long before being attacked or injured or killed, but it just shows how volatile they can be.


----------



## COWGUY1123

WRB do you have a certain sire that you reccomend for me to buy his sperm to insemenate by girls with? Also some guy from the department of agriculture is coming out tomorrow to dehorn my cattle and maybe casterate. Sorry bossroo that I thought you were insulting my cattle. I plan to keep the males till next summer seeing as how I have the room and what do you guys think of me buying 3-4 more pure black angus heifers to breed? To break even I need to sell the entire herd I have right now for 3650. Do you guys think that I could sell my whole herd for more than that? Also I don't think that any little ol bull is about to knock down my heavy duty wooden board fence (maybe my other one). You know maybe it is just some of the cattle down in my neck of the woods that aren't very good but the one guy that said I should keep the ba bull he gives everything to me straight. Said that he was short but would ultimately be a good bull. He also said that the jersey steer looks like it only weighs 300#. But maybe he just might be wrong IDK??? Thanks for all of the replys


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## Sweetened

I have heard of bls going through and trashing metal cattle fencing with relative ease to get at another bull or in with the girls. A fence, next to a solid steel panel fence, is really a suggestion for any animal bigger than a goat (and even then!!)


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## WildRoseBeef

I also have a story about a bull versus a wooden fence.

I was just a little girl when my dad had kept a Charolais bull separate from the steers to keep him from causing trouble. He was only about a year old, and the wood fence seemed like it would be enough to hold him in. But when I was out playing near the cattle pen, for some reason he decided he would make a break for it. All I remember before I turned tail and ran screaming bloody murder for the house was a very loud crack of boards breaking and this big white thing coming over the fence. That bull wouldn't be much older, only by a few months, than your bull, and the fence you have was built almost exactly the way we had it. So don't think for a second that your fence is heavy-duty enough to withstand the power of even a young bull. 

I can't think of any recommended sires to AI your girls to, because I don't know enough of their weaknesses to know what's best for them like you would. I'd sooner shop around for a bull to rent, or look around for some Angus breeders in your area that could point you in the right direction, or even loan you a bull. But, JHM may have some recommendations though, as he is the AI tech on here and the one who more than likely has a wealthy access to some good bulls to recommend for your girls.

It's fine that your neighbour is straight with you, but being short-bodied and a bit post-legged, I still say I wouldn't keep him intact. If you're wanting to go cow-calf, you can invest in a much better bull if/when it comes to that. 

What are your plans for the heifers if you consider buying some? 

Can't tell you how much you'd get for all the animals, but I was thinking (just a hunch, so don't quote me on it) you might get about $4k to $5k out of them, and I hope I'm not being too generous. You might get less if you just sell the bulls/steers (except for the new calf of course) and keep the two females. And as was mentioned, there's no guarantee that cattle prices are going to stay the same next year. It's a real gamble in deciding whether to sell now, or wait, that's for sure.


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## greybeard

I like this one, and think he will suit your plans--low birthweight--calving ease.
http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.php/bull-database-view-page?bid=54&breed=Angus
_"
_


_

Delivers consistent high quality maternal genetics

Cowmaker genetics powerful enough to build a herd around

Proven calving ease and low birth weight offering

Moderate for size and one of our best to improve udders
_

"
From this catalog:
http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.php/beefsires/breeds/angus

I don't care much for this one, (note his birthweight)
http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.php/bull-database-view-page?bid=328&breed=Angus

EPD explanation:
http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.php/beefreources/term
http://www.angus.org/nce/definitions.aspx

https://extension.tennessee.edu/greene/Documents/What Do The Angus EPDs Really Mean.pdf


----------



## Bossroo

COWGUY1123 said:


> WRB do you have a certain sire that you reccomend for me to buy his sperm to insemenate by girls with? Also some guy from the department of agriculture is coming out tomorrow to dehorn my cattle and maybe casterate. Sorry bossroo that I thought you were insulting my cattle. I plan to keep the males till next summer seeing as how I have the room and what do you guys think of me buying 3-4 more pure black angus heifers to breed? To break even I need to sell the entire herd I have right now for 3650. Do you guys think that I could sell my whole herd for more than that? Also I don't think that any little ol bull is about to knock down my heavy duty wooden board fence (maybe my other one). You know maybe it is just some of the cattle down in my neck of the woods that aren't very good but the one guy that said I should keep the ba bull he gives everything to me straight. Said that he was short but would ultimately be a good bull. He also said that the jersey steer looks like it only weighs 300#. But maybe he just might be wrong IDK??? Thanks for all of the replys


Well cowguy,  if that one guy likes your angus bull calf so much,  sell it to him post haste and let him grow it out to prove that he will ultimately be a good bull.  Not only his say so, but better than the cull bulls posted here.  Now,  if I owned your cattle ,  I would SELL  ALL of them at the first available auction or to " one guy" and using the proceeds from all of these cattle buy 2 quality Angus heifers.  When ready, breed them to a quality bull using AI .  With the new calves that you produce, you will have cash in your pocket and will be the envy of the neighborhood.


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## COWGUY1123

Ok so first things first, I never seem to be able to tell when either of my girls are in heat. That would be the only problem for me doing AI. My other neighbor( who's pasture is a 100 feet away) said that he had a 3/4 black angus bull and 1/4 jersey that he would sell to me this fall or just lend him to me. I don't know about this. He also said that he has a pure blooded jersey cow (looks a lot better than mine and looks filled out, I can get a picture soon)with horns that is 8 months pregnant with what will be her second baby calf. He said that he would sell her to me for $1200 as she is. She was bred to the bull up above. She only lives a 100 ft away so no gas money or time will be spent moving her. Do you guys think that this is a good buy or not???? Thanks Greybeard I i'll look into it. So as of right now for my cow fund I have my entire herd and $3600 to spend.


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## COWGUY1123

Oh and another thing is how long can you keep the bulls semen and in what conditions before you inseminate the cows. Also I thought that the AI didn't always work so then I would just be wasting my money


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## SheepGirl

AI is very successful. That's why nearly all dairy herds utilize artificial insemination rather than natural cover by a bull. Cheaper too--liability, feed & care for the bull (possibly separate housing and fencing, too), etc.


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## OneFineAcre

How long can you keep the semen?
Frozen in a semen tank a long, long time


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## Sweetened

Dont you lute cows you want to breed a few days before ai to bring them into heat? I am curious if this is how its done as well


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## greybeard

Sweetened said:


> Dont you lute cows you want to breed a few days before ai to bring them into heat? I am curious if this is how its done as well


WRB or JHM47 would be the folks to address your AI questions.
You can snynchronize with one of the Prostaglandins such as lute, tho many just AI on observed standing heat if they do it themselves or have an AI tech on standby or call and he/she can be there the afternoon of morning observed standing heat (or AI on the morning after observing heat in the PM).

There are 3 different protocols for synchronizing the cycle.
http://beef.unl.edu/learning/estrussynch.shtml

http://extension.missouri.edu/adair/documents/Livestock/AInBeefCattle.pdf


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## WildRoseBeef

AI won't work as well if you're not experienced enough to get it done right, from when the straws are taken out of the tank to when the semen is deposited in the cow. It's best to get an AI tech to do it for you to guarantee higher success rates of settling them versus doing it yourself. Straws kept frozen a semen tank will keep for much longer than a bull's natural life span. That's why some of the remaining straws from a bull that died go up in price because the worth of the straws increase in value compared to the price of straws that would be expected from a bull still alive and still able to have semen collected from.

It takes a lot of monitoring to tell when your girls are in heat. Average time between heats is 21 days; about 18 days at the least, and 24 at the most, usually. One way to tell if they're in heat is how much attention that one female is getting compared to what is considered normal to you. If the boys  are eager to follow her around and are trying to mount her more often than usual, chances are she may be in heat. She'll be pacing and bawling a bit more than usual. Some females have "silent" heats, but I don't think this is all that common. Estrus only lasts for only around 24 hours. There are good detection methods you can use to better detect heat in your cows. Patches put on the rump (on the back just beyond the tail head) are good for telling when and if one of your females has been jumped and even how often. Patches like Estrotect (http://www.selectsires.com/products/heatdetect/estrotect.html ) is one example, and there are many like it on the market. These patches are great for increasing visual detection of heat so you know when it's best to AI. 

Synching heats also help so that you can get both girls bred at the same time without having to call the AI tech out on separate occasions. A shot of Lute to the heifer will also cause her to abort if she's already been bred and bring her back in heat. Producers will often give their heifers a shot of Lute at weaning to ensure none of them are mistakenly in calf well before they should be.


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## jhm47

Estrotect patches are the way to go.  I use them even on some of the heifers that we synchronize.  As to the duration of heat---some heifers are only in heat for 3 - 4 hours.  Cows usually are in heat around 12 - 18 hours.  Breeding should be done around 8 - 12 hours after the onset of heat. 

One method that we use on synched heifers is to use estrotect patches on all of them.  Timed breed those that have scratched patches, and give GnRH to the ones that are not scratched.  Breed the remainder around 20 hours later.  This will increase preg rates by up to 10 - 15%.

As to the length of time that semen is viable in liquid N, it is good as long as it is kept in liquid nitrogen.  I have some ampules (the forerunner of the straws that are currently used) from the 1970's that are just as fertile today as they were when collected. 

I currently have around 2500 head of cows and heifers scheduled to breed in the May - July timeframe.  Expecting to do around 5000 total this summer.  Several herds of 700 - 1000+ signed up already.  Of course, we try to limit our numbers to less than 400 in one day if possible due to arm fatigue and the time frame that they need to be bred within.  The advent of the breeding barns that we utilize has allowed us to breed much faster and obtain better preg rates than were possible earlier. 

As to using AI versus a bull--- Using AI when you can use a bull that likely has up to several thousand calves on the ground, versus an unproven bull is a no brainer.  I have a customer who used AI the past several years to a PROVEN calving ease bull, and bought a "supposedly calving ease bull" to use as a cleanup bull last year.  He had no problem with the AI calves, and had to pull 100+ lb calves from the heifers that were bred by the cleanup bull.  Lost several calves, and had to have a vet do a caesarian section on a heifer.  The "C" section cost him nearly $700, and he still lost the heifer.  He's now convinced that AI is feasible cost wise.  Yes, AI is not as convenient as a bull, but when you consider the shortened calving time, the likelihood of less calving difficulty, and the increased genetic value and flexibility, it's a no brainer.  I'm also seeing $4000 - $6000 bulls that people have bought that should have been steers.  Using a proven bull that one of the AI studs has done extensive research on, and has likely have done genetic tests on for a total fee of around $100 or less is definitely the way to go.  Good luck!


----------



## COWGUY1123

This is the Jersey cow for sale. About 3 years old 8 months pregnant with her second calf. Was bred to a 3/4 black angus 1/4 jersey bull and is for sale for $1200. Is this a good buy ??? How much should I offer him or should I just meet his price. He is my neighbor so no transportation fee.

















Tell me what y'all think…...


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## SheepGirl

No cattle expert, but she doesn't look 8 months bred...


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## Sweetened

I thought the same thought...


----------



## Bossroo

cowguy... since it seems that you know much more about cattle , their conformation and how much money you will make from them than any of us here, not to mention their management ... go ahead and buy them !


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## greybeard

SheepGirl said:


> No cattle expert, but she doesn't look 8 months bred...


Appearances in regards to bred or open can be misleading at times, and CowGuy--the $1200 price seems good enough, but if you are considering buying her as a heavy bred 2nd calf animal, you should get some kind of assurance that you are getting what you pay for--a palp test from a vet would not be out of line to ask for when doing a private treaty purchase.


----------



## farmeroak

I have a black angus mixed with Holstein calf that I just bought. His mom was Holstein and dad black angus. He is totally black. Not sure if I want to raise him for meat or to reproduce. Did I make a good deal or not. I am new to the cow industry. Can someone give me some input. Thanks.


----------



## WildRoseBeef

She doesn't look too bad. Those horns need to be tipped though. 

@farmeroak, you're better off castrating him and using him for beef. JHM covered it well enough above about unproven bulls to warrant a good reason to use your Angus-cross for the freezer. At least, I'm assuming your calf is a bull calf by the way your describing him as a "he" and not a "she..."


----------



## COWGUY1123

look bossroo I am just trying to get everyones opinions. Im asking what you think about me buying this cow(maybe she isn't bred, but ill ask him because that is what he said). I am also asking what you guys think that I can sell them for because I don't really know. All I know is that this jersey cow to me looks a lot better than mine. Just saying.........


----------



## COWGUY1123

Also he might be talking about a different cow but this is the one that came into my mind first because that is the one that I always see when I drive past his field


----------



## farmeroak

My angus cross Holstein bull calf is 6 days old. How much milk to water ratio shoul I feed him and how often. Also should I leave fresh water out for him. He seems like he is starving when I feed him. I am feeding him Dumor ultra milk replacer. 8 oz to one nursing bottle of water. And feed him in morning and afternoon. Can someone help me out. Thanks.


----------



## Sweetened

Farmeroak, you should start a new thread so people can help you there.

Cowguy, i think youve offended people and put them off. You asked for their opinion, they gave it, and you fought them on it. Now they are unwilling to be consults.

Price depends on your market. In the canadian prairies right now, you could probably get 900-1000 for your bull, even as a feeder. Cattle are going stupid here, cow calf pairs on angus are anywhere from 2500-8000 each; open heifers are 1200+, replacemrnts about the same. TWIN bottle calves (possible free martins) are selling for 6-800. Our dexter, had we not traded for her, with calf at side was 1500, and shes 14 years old.

You will have to figure out pricing yourself. Call some dairy barns and find out what their culls are going for (usually decent confirmation, sometimes registered, but only milking on 3 quarters or producing 3 gallons a day instead of 6 etc).  Check the auction houses in your area for beef prices.  Good luck. This is a great community, but they dont take kindly to feeling as though they waated time and effort where itll never be used.

Youd pay big money for that info from an ag specialist or breeder.


----------



## farmeroak

Sweetened said:


> Farmeroak, you should start a new thread so people can help you there.
> 
> Cowguy, i think youve offended people and put them off. You asked for their opinion, they gave it, and you fought them on it. Now they are unwilling to be consults.
> 
> Price depends on your market. In the canadian prairies right now, you could probably get 900-1000 for your bull, even as a feeder. Cattle are going stupid here, cow calf pairs on angus are anywhere from 2500-8000 each; open heifers are 1200+, replacemrnts about the same. TWIN bottle calves (possible free martins) are selling for 6-800. Our dexter, had we not traded for her, with calf at side was 1500, and shes 14 years old.
> 
> You will have to figure out pricing yourself. Call some dairy barns and find out what their culls are going for (usually decent confirmation, sometimes registered, but only milking on 3 quarters or producing 3 gallons a day instead of 6 etc).  Check the auction houses in your area for beef prices.  Good luck. This is a great community, but they dont take kindly to feeling as though they waated time and effort where itll never be used.
> 
> Youd pay big money for that info from an ag specialist or breeder.


Thank you. Not sure how to do that. New to this site as well.


----------



## Sweetened

farmeroak said:


> Thank you. Not sure how to do that. New to this site as well.



Welcome to the forum!  I see you got it figured out, well done!  Someone should be able to help you there.


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## COWGUY1123

Thanks sweetened


----------



## greybeard

WildRoseBeef said:


> She doesn't look too bad. Those horns need to be tipped though.
> 
> @farmeroak, you're better off castrating him and using him for beef. JHM covered it well enough above about unproven bulls to warrant a good reason to use your Angus-cross for the freezer. At least, I'm assuming your calf is a bull calf by the way your describing him as a "he" and not a "she..."


I've also seen and heard of that Angus/Holstein cross sell very well as a steer at the salebarn. Same with 'some' heifers--the extra milking ability is seen as a plus. I personally wouldn't keep it as a bull to long-the Holstein influenced bulls aren't much better natured than a Jersey bull.


----------



## greybeard

COWGUY1123 said:


> look bossroo I am just trying to get everyones opinions. Im asking what you think about me buying this cow(maybe she isn't bred, but ill ask him because that is what he said). I am also asking what you guys think that I can sell them for because I don't really know. All I know is that this jersey cow to me looks a lot better than mine. Just saying.........


I agree she looks much better than the others you posted, but as I said, I am not much of a dairy cattle guy. You would want to have a good look at her udder--from what little I can see of it, it looks pretty tight for a cow that's already had and (presumably) raised a calf at 3 years old. OTOH, being dairy they may have pulled the calf and sold it very early and milked her or didn't milk her and she dried right up. 

yes--tip or remove her horns if you do buy her.


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## COWGUY1123

Thanks graybeard Im going to ask sometime this week to make sure that she is pregnant. He could have been talking about a different cow in a different field?????


----------



## Ridgetop

I'm with all those who replied already - get rid of the Holstein bull now and the Angus bull about a minute later!  I am sorry to say that they are already too old for you to hold over for meat sale next year.  They are worthless as breeding stock unless they have excellent pedigrees which on the Holstein should include annual milk weight yields of all his female relatives.  Your Angus is also worth nothing without records since most cattler breeders buy breeding bulls with backfat records and scrotum girths, again on a majority of relatives.  A recordless bull is not worth much.  Your new Holstein bull calf should go into the freezer at 300lbs if you are keeping him on milk.  Since you have the milk available bottle or pail feed the calf and make sure he is halter broke.  Milk fed veal will bring your best profit on dairy bull calves.   Don't try to raise dairy bulls or steers for beef and expect to make anything.   First, a bull doesn't put on meat like a steer does.  After you pour feed into him for a year or two you will not have that much more meat on him and will have spent a lot on feed.  Plus bulls are hell on fences and with your cows around they will break down your fences to get to them when the cows are bulling.  The problem is that you are trying to raise dairy bulls for meat.  First, no rancher raises bulls for meat, only steers.  Dairy bull calves are sent to the calf man and raised until 2-3 months on milk (the milk is usually bought cheap from the dairies because it is the milk from the cows on antibiotics, etc. that can't be sold to the creamery), hay and grain.  Then they are sold as feeder calves.  The buyer castrates them and raises them on pasture for another year.  Then they are sold in large lots to the feedlot where they get grain for a few months until they are about 18-20 months old BUT the dairy breeds are mostly turned into hamburger for the big restaurant chains.  The best beef will be a beef breed.  You need to do some research into whether dairy cattle or beef cattle bring more money in your area. 
If you want to keep doing the Holstein calf thing and can get them cheap ($l00 with a colostrum feed maybe) you can raise them 2 ways.  First, for veal - feed only milk by bottle till 300 lbs then sell the calf.  Line up buyers ahead of time then you can trailer straight to the butcher for them - figure the cost of time and gas and add it to the price you charge.  The buyer is responsible for the slaughter fees, cut and wrap.  Veal calves take more m ilk since they don't get any other feed.  They are trickier to raise since their gut never develops properly - their milk stomach can only support them until about 3 months old so these need to be terminal calves.  Second way for starter beef calves, feed milk but also add hay, plenty of fresh water, and 1 lb of grain per day.  Make sure you raise at least 3 the same age all at a time.  They get only 1 gal of milk daily, split into 2 feeds am & pm.  At 2 months old take all 3 calves and sell at the auction as one lot.  They will bring more in a lot of at least 3 calves the same age.  If you feed properly and clean them upo for the auction you will get a good price for them.  Most people sell their 2 month old calves dirty and with scours.  If yours are clean, fat and healthy you will get angus prices for your young Holstein calves.  Don't hold them beyond 3 months.  The price drops at that point.  With our dairy goat herd we raised calves and the cattle auction man told me how to get the best prices that way.  I got top beef prices for my dairy calves at 2 months because they were glossy, fat and no scours.  If I held them longer than 2 months I didn't get any more for them, and had an extra month of feed in them.
Stay away from bulls, they are too dangerous, and don't put on meat like a castrated animal does.  One reason your cow is looking thin is that the milker is putting everything into the pail.  She does need her hooves trimmed badly.  Dairy breeds are built differently than beef breeds.  Your dairy cattle should never look fat - if they look fat when milking they are probably not good milkers. 
by  
If you decide to ignore the advice of getting rid of the bulls, CASTRATE THEM ASAP.  Bulls are dangerous and more trouble than they are worth which is why so many large dairies inseminate their cattle and just keep one bull as a backup cover.  JHM is totally right - you do NOT want to breed that Holstein to any of your cows since they are Jerseys which are a small breed.  Calving will kill the heifer and possibly the cow too.  Even Holstein dairies breed all their heifers to small breed bulls like Angus or Jersey for first fresheners because Holstein bull calves are so large. If you want to raise cattle on pasture, buy some young beef steers (or calves that you can have the vet castrate for you) and raise them to about a year then sell them without putting them on feed.  It will be cheaper and your gain will be higher. 
Dehorn your cattle and make sure your cows have magnets.  Hope this helps.  With the 30 acres of kudzu pasture you might consider meat goats.


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## COWGUY1123

thanks and the jersey up above that I am going to be getting will actually be a first time caller so she is actually a heifer


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## Ridgetop

After reading this entire thread and all the good advice you have been given, you seem a little defensive.    A lot of what you are doing seems to be just randomly buying bull calves which usually go cheap young because the dairy people regard them as garbage.  In dairy animals it's all about the females.  Read up on the different structure types between dairy and beef animals.  Beef animals should have round rib bones, dairy has flat bones.  Dairy animals are built differently because they are designed to milk large amounts and put everything they have into the pail.  Beef animals are built to carry lots of meat on their bones - even the females should be muscled up and meaty.  Learn where the cuts of meat are on the animals - that will help you understand what people are telling you about "guts, butts, and nuts".  Length is necessary because the best cuts are in the loin.  the loin is the area of muscle on either side of the backbone from behind the shoulder to just in front of the hip.  The next most valuable cuts of meat are in the rump - that is why a hatchet butt is not acceptable.  Learn what the meat man sees when he buys your cattle for his butcher shop.  You won't get as much money for cattle that are short bodied, no rump, etc.  Don't get angry or defensive at their advice.  Most people learn what they are telling you the hard way, after losing money feeding poor livestock.  If you just want a couple cute calves in a pasture, that is one thing, but even back yard herds need to pay their way.  What you have assembled here won't without some severe cutting and reconsideration.  Do some homework at the library and study some ag books on beef and dairy cattle, feed ratios, pasteurage, etc. to understand what these good people on this thread are trying to say to you nicely.
Listen to what everyone has told you - get rid of the bulls either by selling or cutting asap.  It is coming into spring so sell now since prices will be higher for beef.  If you want beef production buy some GOOD Angus heifers and forget about the Jerseys.  Unless you want to do the dairy work and produce milk or have a specialty market in veal, why waste time and money on dairy animals?  Dairy work is more labor intensive - take all the work you have to do with beef cattle, breeding, calving, doctoring, and double it with milking, etc. If you decide to buy Angus heifers check due dates on the calves and get a preg check by a vet.  Don't rely on work of mouth from the seller - his records might not be correct.  There is a reason why large farms have their cattle preg checked by the vet.  You don't want cows to calve mid winter and have to feed in the barn all winter long.  Ideal calving time is spring when the grass is out and momma is producing milk on grass.  It is one reason why some people will sell a cow in calf with a mid winter calving date as a "good deal".  Take the good advice from WRB, GB,Bossroo & Sweetened.  Do your homework first so you know what you are looking at when someone offers you a "deal".  No offense to your neighbor but why is he selling this good cow?  Maybe the good deal is for him, not you. 
Second, on the 30 acres of kudzu, I don't know if it is good for cattle, but why not diversify?  Get some meat goats in there.  You can castrate the buck kids with an elastrator yourself and in some areas meat goats will bring as much a lb as beef.  They are not that great on grass pasture since they are browsers, but the kudzu might be just the ticket.  Run your cattle on the grass and goats in the kudzu.  Increase your profits.  Bucks can be aggressive but only during rutting season so are easier to handle than rams and bulls.  With sheep and goats you might have predator problems, but that is another issue for another thread. 
PLEASE do yourself a favor and get rid of the bulls asap.  Don't forget, if one gets out and hurts someone else you are liable.  think about what you have heard on this thread - no one wants to hear on your next one that you are recovering from a bull attack.


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## Ridgetop

Sorry if I come on strong - we all want to help you.


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## COWGUY1123

How much would this black angus be worth now. Have an offer for $1440. Is that good. Think he might be about 700lbs what do u think?


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## Ridgetop

After reviewing the entire thread from last April, I would say sell this bull.  Remember the advice about hatchet a**?  This fellow does not have the roundness in his butt that would make him a keeper.  In proportion to the rest of him there is little meat in his rump which is where you would want to see width and rounding.  I am not sure what beef prices are in your area, but if you can get $1400 for this bull, I would sell.
Did you ever sell your other cattle?


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