# Can I give Red Cell to calves?



## glenolam

I have red cell on hand for my goats, but was wondering if I could give it to the calves born yesterday.  The little boy, who's nursing great, isn't as active as the little girl.  When she's up, she starts romping around looking like she thinks she's a frog instead of a cow.  When the little boy is up, he sort of just wobbles on his legs and fumbles towards mom.

He's a TALL boy, that much is for sure, and he doesn't appear listless or as though anything is wrong with him, he's just gangly (if you know what I mean).

Can I give him anything to perk him up or is this just his personality?  We'd like to see him romping around like the girl does.


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## glenolam

No one has any input?!? 


At this point I have no reason to give it to the calves because they're both fine, but it'd be nice to know for future use.


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## jhm47

When calves are nursing properly, and not showing signs of sickness (droopy ears, labored breathing, elevated temps), I suggest that they be left alone.  Tampering with the natural balance that is present in nearly every calf usually just sets them back.

I have raised cattle for 55+ years, and have finally learned that in almost all cases, "less is better".  There are times when a calf will benefit from some kind of intervention, but they are fairly rare.  

I will aggressively treat pneumonia, hypothermia, bad cases of scours, and foot/navel infections, but if a calf is eating normally, and showing no signs of problems, they are best left alone.  JMHO


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## glenolam

jhm47 said:
			
		

> Tampering with the natural balance that is present in nearly every calf usually just sets them back.
> ....but if a calf is eating normally, and showing no signs of problems, they are best left alone.  JMHO


Whole-heartedly agree with you.  I have no reason to give them anything at this moment and don't plan to, but I wasn't sure if anyone out there had used Red Cell on calves.  If someone has, I was interested in why, how much, how often, etc.


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## k9k8s

I think I just learned that less is best... My first bum calf came to me in bad shape a few weeks ago. He was finally up and doing good.
A gal at the Co-op feed store told my husband to give him some of this Red Cell for horses. It sat here for a week as I didn't think he needed it. I gave him a few tastes of it over several days. 
Then one day my husband was making bottles and dumped a full dose in. I found him cold and groaning a few hours later. Maybe it wasn't that?
I spent the next hour getting him warm and got some electrolytes down him via tube. Then he lurched, almost convulsed in pain. It sounded like something inside him popped and then he squirt diarrhea and died.


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## greybeard

> Beware of Copper in Your Iron Supplements - Copper Poisoning Causes Icterus Copper is a trace mineral which is needed to absorb iron, but copper is very efficiently absorbed by milkfed calves and accumulates in the liver of the calf over time. The copper requirement for veal calves is very low – about 5 ppm in the total diet. Feeding higher amounts causes copper to accumulate over time, culminating in copper poisoning. The most common signs of copper poisoning are icturis (yellow jaundice, yellow fat) and sudden death when the hemolytic crisis occurs. Many calves with copper poisoning appear normal but are condemned at the packing plant due to yellow fat and yellow-orange colored liver due to jaundice. Veal calves absorb copper with very high efficiency – as high as 50% of copper in feed is absorbed and stored in the liver compared to only about 10% in ruminants (Suttle, 1974). Research by Bremner and Dalgarno (1973) showed that as little as 5 ppm copper added to milk replacer increased liver copper levels from 54-69 ppm to 556-586 ppm. In acute copper poisoning, liver copper levels increase to about 1000 ppm when the hemolytic crisis occurs and death ensues. Calves that do not reach the point of hemolytic crisis may show signs of copper poisoning such as yellow discoloration of the liver, fat, and icterus. Other factors may also play a role in icterus such as viral and bacterial infections, anemia, low dietary iron and unidentified toxins (Groot and Gruys, 1993). Legronne and Legardinier (1983) reported that copper poisoning was the primary problem in veal calves and did not involve viruses, parasites or toxins, even though they were able to isolate the bacteria Welchia perfringens type A from liver. Nearly all feed companies supplement copper in the milk replacer because some copper is required for iron absorption. However, many milk replacers may have excessively high copper levels which can cause damage when calves are very young and accumulate throughout the growing/finishing period to create more problems for older calves (Robinson et al., 1999). Furthermore, feeding additional copper in iron supplements such as Go Max™ (30 mg copper/oz) and Red Cell® (36 mg copper/oz) may contribute to copper poisoning and increase the incidence of icterus. Nouriche’s iron supplement (Precision Iron™) only contains iron from organic sources, and no copper or other nutrients



http://www.nouriche.com/IronManagementforVealCalves.pdf


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