# Doe in Labor/kidded C-section...Pics added



## Aped (May 4, 2010)

Okay, here we go. I didn';t want to be one of those people but here i am asking for advice while my doe is in labor. I know I will probably have to call a vet but I don't even have a large animal vet and they are hard to find since I don't know anyone with large animals. 

Okay anyway, I came home at 630p, saw my doe who is an FF, had mucus running out. She had been pushing for about a half hour. I saw the little bubble and so I went and popped it. 

Then I see one hoof coming out, and that kind of happened for an hour(730p). I was worried it was taking long so I sterilized, went in and found both hooves in correct position and kind of tried to gently spread her out so they would find their way out easier. 

After some more pushing and no progress, I ended up tugging on those hooves and they have come out more and stayed out but the head is not following. If I try to pull the kid out, there is no movement. I can't get the kids head to come out further and it is not rested above the legs. Well it is but not where the hooves are, it is still inside. 

Am I rushing her? Should I wait longer. I don't want her to exhaust herself. My worry is the kid is too large and won't fit out although I can pretty much feel the whole head so it must be passed the pelvis. 

 I think I need to find an emergency vet...


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## aggieterpkatie (May 4, 2010)

Ok, first off, relax.   

Is the head turned back?  If so, you'll need to go in and grab it (I usually grab the muzzle) and pull it into the correct position.  Once the head is in the correct position, you'll want to go ahead and gently pull (with the contractions) the baby out.  Usually before you ever pull you want to first make sure the head is in the correct position.  

And I don't think you're rushing.  If she's been truly pushing since 6:30, that baby needs to come out.


For future reference, it's not a good idea to pop the bubble.  The bubble is keeping in amniotic fluid which helps lubricate the kid for ease of kidding.


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## helmstead (May 4, 2010)

I would try pushing the legs back in and repositioning the kid (use a string/kid puller to make sure the head comes with the legs this time) - or even trying to deliver it breech

At this point, you will be lucky to deliver a live kid.

If you're not comfortable doing this, then yes, ER vet ASAP before the doe is in danger.


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## glenolam (May 4, 2010)

I just wanted to send my good wishes - I hope everything worked out.


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## freemotion (May 4, 2010)

It is very scary while it is happening....I think my life was shortened by at least a year today!  How is she doing?

And thank goodness for this forum.  I saved my doe and her kid today thanks in large part to people on this forum.  The vet was not an option.  I tried.  So don't feel bad about asking.


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## Aped (May 4, 2010)

Well here's how it went down:

I called the only vet I knew that dealt with goats but to my surprise, I guess they don't even though they are a large animal vet. They then referred me to another place called New Bolton Center(a part of UPenn). Initially the receptionist made it sound like I was up the creek without a paddle. She told me it would be way too expensive to come in for a c-section at their facility. She asked me if I wanted to talk to a surgeon about pricing and I said yes. The surgeon was a young guy, really nice and actually tried to work with me unlike the receptionist. At first he said $1000 minimum to do a c-section. I said I can't afford that and don't want to put her down.  He then asked if he could make a few calls and get back to me. He did and making a few adjustments, like local anesthesia and not charging an emergency fee, which he said he could do right now because there was some act that has not gone through yet. I have no idea what that act is but he then quoted me 300-350 or slightly more. I said okay and was there in a half hour. 

Now onto the goat. She had been in labor since at least 6pm I would say. I got her in there and there were about 15 people there all poking and prodding her. They all seemed much more optimistic than I was about both the doe AND her kid(s) making it through this okay. I was still a bit skeptical. The problem was that the kid's head was stuck in the does pelvic opening, hence the feet coming out and not the head.  They prepped her, opened her, got the kid it which was only one big buck and he was alive and trying to walk just 5 minutes after they took him out of her which was around 11:20pm. Both mom and baby are supposedly going to be fine. I had to leave them there overnight and maybe up to 48 hours and they will contact me about their status and when I can pick them up. 

This is my first kidding and I honestly don't see how it could've been any worse! I have to say though, that I really appreciate how those people at New Bolton Center helped me out today. I also now must find a regular goat vet of which there really seem to be none in this area and that worries me. 

Also, now my whole goat plan is turned upside down. I was hoping to get a doe out of this doe even though I knew most FF's have 1 buck. But now I don't even think I can breed her again. She is one year old and had a problem with one big kid. She may grow a bit more but I think she will always have problems kidding. Am I right about that? She is a nigerian and supposedly her dam milked a 1/2 gallon per day at her peak and I was really looking forward to that. Oh well. I have another due to kid at the end of June. She is completely unrelated to this doe so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that there are no problems.


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## freemotion (May 5, 2010)

Great end to your harrowing day.  Let us know what the vet says about her kidding future.


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## helmstead (May 5, 2010)

Great outcome!  I was so worried for you!

My vet has advised that you usually can attempt a VBAC provided the incision for the section was done in a certain way (forgive me, I cannot remember).  I hope that you're able to try again with this doe.

PS you might consider having the other doe ultrasounded/x rayed to see whats in there.  If you have another singleton, you might want to reduce feed in the last month to avoid it growing too large, and even consider inducing the doe at day 140 under vet supervision.  Singletons almost always get stuck...some just a little, and as you know, some quite badly.


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## glenolam (May 5, 2010)

I'm glad to hear that everything worked out and they were able to help you so well and on such short notice!

I have no advice or expertise on whether or not she can kid again, but I definitely don't think you should give up.  If you find out you cannot breed her again (or just don't want to), maybe find another doe who's about a year and 1/2 or two years old and it will work out better.  I didn't breed my doeling last fall because I was worried she was still too small, but she's a bigger breed anyway and wasn't quite 70 lbs during breeding season.

When it does go right it is the best feeling ever and you end up with wiggly little kids who steal your heart!



ETA: Sorry - I just noticed you said you have another doe who should kid.  Good luck with her!  Let us know how everything worked out.


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## PattySh (May 5, 2010)

Very sorry to hear about your traumatic delivery. Very glad mom and baby are fine. I am not a pro on goats (yet lol)and malpresentations but have delivered lots of puppies. I will say that a csection happens out of the blue and it's always the moms you least suspect! I have had moms with "head back" babies have C's and then deliver just fine. it's always when my regular vet is not available and I have to go to the EXPENSIVE place too. A dog c-section is generally $1200 or more at that place where my vet does exactly the same surgery with same supplies for under $400. It is very hard to make the decision to rebreed but my feeling (with my dogs and breeding program) is if the dog is young and it's a mispresentation generally safe to rebreed. If it's a mom with generally *oversized* stuck pups not such a good idea, whether young or not. With my dogs I never breed past age 6. When we "restarted" with goats this time we bred Natalie our pet goat. She was bred at age 1 and 2 and delivered healthy twins each time. She is now 7 and I beleive she is preggers although this goat has the biggest rumen for such a small goat sticks out on both sides of her, still she looks huge I would be surprised if nothing is in there as she was handbred then ran with the male. Not much udder on her but her milk came in during delivery both times. Bit nervous about her! They make you nuts don't they. We also had a baby doeling yesterday our first after being out of goats for a bit.


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## PattySh (May 5, 2010)

I should have added she's not a house goat! Came in just for the pic and to meet my grandson. She's in a kid pen with a heatlamp in the barn . We had the bottle babies I bought this winter inside in a puppypen and my grandson wanted to know if this one was staying in "til it starting stinking" lol.


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## chubbydog811 (May 5, 2010)

Glad to hear your goatys are ok...
It's funny to see how high all of the prices are for the C-sections...When my goat had it done, it was only $100...and they did other work on her...Though I'm going to bet it was the cheap because the goat died on the table and they felt bad  THough my baby ended up being a house goat since it was so cold...and he was so drugged up, he didnt wake up for about 6 hours.


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## Aped (May 5, 2010)

well here's an update. Initially the vet said both momma and baby were doing good. Then an hour later he said momma was looking under the weather, had high heart rate and low PCV(?) counts. That got me all worried because I at least wanted the doe to milk and without the doe I'd have to bottle feed. 

The vet calls me with an update this morning and tells me she is doing better but it might be better to keep her another day. I agreed. For a split-second I was happy at the possiblity of having both doe and kid come home. Then he tells me that if even if she does heal up 100%, I may still have to bottle-feed because the doe and kid are not interested in each other. I wonder if that has to do with the c-section or the fact that they were separated for a few hours. 

I'll keep everyone posted but in the meantime can anyone gve me a good schedule for bottle-feeding a kid when you're away from home for 9 hours a day? Does it matter if they go that long without food? I don't care if I have to feed every 2 hours through the night while I am home. ANd this may sound silly but what is the best food. There's obviously goat milk and I could get that from the dam if she does well. But then I've seen sav-a-lamb formula and also heard cow's milk is good to use to prevent scours. It my head, i would think it would cause scours and if cow milk is good what about raw cow's milk, since I have access to that as well. 

Thanks for everyone's thoughts and input throughtout this whole mess! I have some extra planning to do before the next doe kid's in 1.5 months.


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## haviris (May 5, 2010)

My second choice after goat milk, is whole milk from the store, or raw cow's milk. For the first few days to a week (depending on how well the kid is doing) I feed everytime the kid is hungry, then start working them onto a 4 hour schedule through the day, no feedings at night. In your case what I would do is try to adjust the kid to the 9 hours being night and feed through the night like it's day.

Why do you think FF usually have single bucks? Just currious, my ff generally have twins, and I generally breed at 2 years (but not always). Last year I had 3 FF (two 2 year olds and one yearling) and got 2 sets of buck/doe twins, and one set of twin does.


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## Aped (May 6, 2010)

WEll both doe and kid are now home. The doe is doing better but has a lot healing to do from both the c-section and a lot of vaginal/birth canal trauma from the kid being stuck. I would say I also hand a hand or two in that, quite literally. She is on antibiotics twice a day for the next 5 days, penicillin and some nex-something. The total cost was $450 and I am really grateful for the price since I know what it could've been. 

The mom and kid haven't really bonded. When the vet called me this morning he said that it's possible that kid is nursing since he refused the bottle in the morning and still gained weight when they weighed him but when I went to pick him up they said he was fed at two and needed to be fed again at four. They were feeding every 2 hours. It's all a little confusing because in the report they said they milked mom of her colostrum and fed the kid with it but they also provided me with bovine colostrum which I'm supposed to continue to feed over the next few days while mixing with milk replacer until it's 100% milk replacer. They never mentioned me bottle-feeding with the dam's milk. Which I did milk her tonight and got about 1.5 cups. I have no idea if they milked her after the colostrum was out but if they said the kid wasn't nursing I guess they would've had too? 

Anyway, mom and baby are being kept together at night in hopes that they will still bond. I guess we'll see.


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## Roll farms (May 6, 2010)

I'd skip the replacer and bovine colostrum, and give him her milk and if she takes him to raise, great....if not, and you don't have enough milk from her, I'd use whole milk from the store.

She's more liable to accept him if he smells like 'her' milk is going through his system.

I've never fed a kid more often than every 6-8 hours, even newborns.  

Not saying you shouldn't listen to the vet, just offering my opinion.

Good luck w/ both of them, he's adorable.


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## Aped (May 6, 2010)

Thanks for the input. I'm brand new to the who kidding thing so I'm interested to see what  how other people hand their baby goats. Everyone seems to do it differently. I think there a lot more wiggle room in feeding amounts and times than people realize. I actually tried to feed him 2 hours after I first fed him and he was having none of it. So I think the every 2 hours thing is a bit much. I think it will also switch him off the bovine colostrum to mom's milk I just don't want to feed him so much that he thinks I am his only source of milk because i could've sworn just before I put them to bed I peeked in their pen and he was coming out from mom as if he had just been nursing. It was dark and I opened the door and let all the light in. I wonder if he only nurses in the dark.


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## chandasue (May 7, 2010)

I bottle fed my Nigerian babies whole cow's milk from the store 4X per day the first week working _slowly_ up to 8 oz/feeding, then 3X per day for the next 5 weeks. Watch their poo to determine if he's getting too much milk the first week. They're down to 2 bottles now that they're eating grain and hay well, and down to one bottle next week and then none after that. They grow fast and I've really enjoyed bottle feeding them. Other than the first week with midnight feedings, I spaced the feedings out as far as I could and still managed to get a good nights sleep.

Edit: for a grand total of 8 weeks before completely weaned.


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## Horsefly (May 7, 2010)

I don't have any bottle feeding advice for you because I have never bottle fed but wanted to wish you goat a speedy recovery.  Both of them are pretty goats.


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## glenolam (May 7, 2010)

Thanks for those great pics - I've never seen where they would do a c-section on a goat.  Guess I was thinking on the underside...

He couldn't have picked a more opposite color from his mom, eh!?!

I, too, can't offer any bottle feeding advice, but also wanted to mention that I love that hay feeder!  Must be a great space saver!


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## Aped (May 7, 2010)

glenolam, I also couldn't figure out how they were do the c-section, I was thinking people-wise and couldn't believe that they might cut through that full udder. But when it was explained it made total sense. Now I imagine that's how they were c-sect any ruminant. 

The kid's father is black and white so that's where his color comes from.

the breeder I got my first goats from had that sort of feeder set-up but made out of the fence outside their pens. I thought it was a great idea. It's cheap and works great. I've had to replace the wire once already from the leaning on it. I could probably avoid that by using woven wire but it's not worth the cost for the two corners where I have it.


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## ksalvagno (May 7, 2010)

That is the same place that they cut for a C-section on alpacas which are also ruminants. It heals pretty quickly in alpacas so I would think it should heal well in goats too.

Glad everything went ok for you and you have a nice healthy cute little kid.


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## Ariel301 (May 8, 2010)

I am glad they both made it, that had to be scary! Congratulations on your cute new baby.  

C-sections on large livestock are always done on the side like that. If it was done on the underside, there is more strain on the incision site from the weight of the organs (especially with a huge full rumen on a goat/cow/sheep etc) and more possibility of the sutures coming loose, allowing everything in there to spill out--obviously not a good situation. There is less strain from gravity and the weight of the organs if it is on the side. 

It is true that first timers are more likely to have a single kid and then start having multiple births after that, but there is not predisposition towards the first being a male. The gender of the baby has nothing to do with the mom, and is decided by the sperm that fertilizes the egg. So you have an equal chance of her first baby being male or female, just like with any later births...although sometimes you get a weird year like I have had, where you get way more of one than the other...I have had absolutely no doelings born this year.


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## glenolam (May 8, 2010)

Ariel301: said:
			
		

> C-sections on large livestock are always done on the side like that. If it was done on the underside, there is more strain on the incision site from the weight of the organs (especially with a huge full rumen on a goat/cow/sheep etc) and more possibility of the sutures coming loose, allowing everything in there to spill out--obviously not a good situation. There is less strain from gravity and the weight of the organs if it is on the side.


This is where I was thinking "the strain would be more on the side because of the weight pulling down...thus pulling on the sides of the body..."  but I see now how the force pulling down would probably pull the bottom apart more than the sides.

I learn something new every day!


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