# I might finally be getting a milk cow!!!!



## WindyIndy (Oct 22, 2016)

Hi everyone! I haven't been on here for SO long, life is crazy! 

Anyway, I may finally be getting my milk cow! I have wanted one for as long as I can remember, but haven't been able to get one yet. One reason being they have been WAY to pricey for me. Well, I found one on CL for $600 and only 45 minutes away!! The lady is also willing to deliver it for me! I'm so excited! 

She is a Dexter and was born in May. 

I always do a TON of research before I ever get another animal to make sure I can properly care for them. I was just wondering if anyone had any tips for me? I want to hand milk her. Does anyone find that just being tide up or in a headlock works better?  Do you feed them while milking (I was thinking maybe a little hay?)?

I may come up with more as I continue my research, but I do have a couple years before I need to worry about calving/milking


----------



## WindyIndy (Oct 22, 2016)

Oh, and this is her ad picture


----------



## Goatgirl47 (Oct 22, 2016)

Welcome (in advance) to the wonderful world of cows! 

She's beautiful! I've always wanted a Dexter.
You might want to look into testing her dam for BLV, Johnes, and TB. They are the cattle diseases we test our cows for annually.

We currently have nine cows, all of them except for one are mix breeds (we have found that crosses are hardier then most purebreds).  If all goes well we'll be adding two more beef heifers to our herd soon.


----------



## WindyIndy (Oct 22, 2016)

Thank you!!

We used to raise beef cattle, but haven't for a few years now.  I miss the cows 

She is isn't she?! I was originally going to go with a Jersey for their high butter fat, but then decided I wanted something smaller and less milk (too much for our family   ). I then thought about a mini Jersey, and in researching them I found the Dexters. I really liked them and they love the fact that they have the same butter fat content as the Jersey! They also don't give more then 1.5-2 gallons a day of milk, plenty for us!

I know the lady said she likes to keep a closed herd, but can ask about that testing. She's away until next Saturday. I'll probably go down the following Sunday.


----------



## Latestarter (Oct 22, 2016)

Congrats! I hope all works out for you   As a young Dexter, you should be able to just put it in the back seat of your car to take it home with you   Hope you'll share more stories/pictures when you get her. She's a beauty!


----------



## WindyIndy (Oct 22, 2016)

Thank you!!! Or in the back of my Expedition! 

I will definitely try, I haven't been very good about keeping everyone updated about my sheep.  I'm sorry.


----------



## Green Acres Farm (Oct 22, 2016)

WindyIndy said:


> I know the lady said she likes to keep a closed herd, but can ask about that testing.



She is really cute!

We have bought from "closed" goat herds and come to find out they had CAE. Testing beforehand can save you a LOT of money and stress. It's fairly inexpensive, especially compared to the cost of dealing with it.


----------



## Green Acres Farm (Oct 22, 2016)

WindyIndy said:


> I was originally going to go with a Jersey for their *high butter fat*, but then decided I wanted something *smaller* and less milk (too much for our family   ). I then thought about a mini Jersey, and in researching them I found the Dexters. I really liked them and they love the fact that they have the same butter fat content as the Jersey! They also don't give more then *1.5-2 gallons a day of milk*, plenty for us!



Have you looked into Nubian or Nigerian Dwarf goats? Both have very high butterfat content, and are small, easy to handle, and also make great pets!

Nubians can give a gallon + a day and little ND's can give 1-1.5 quarts a day.

Maybe I am a little biased.


----------



## WindyIndy (Oct 22, 2016)

Thanks for the heads up!

I actually wanted milk goats too, but didn't have the right fence, and a job that didn't pay enough.  I do have better a better job now and better    fencing  since I have sheep.  But the goats would have to be with the sheep and I don't want my ram to breed them. Not sure how goat sheep crosses would be    I do have a little weather fainting goat that I love!  Nubians were the ones I wanted too.


----------



## Goatgirl47 (Oct 23, 2016)

To answer your question in your original post, it doesn't really matter what you feed cows when you milk them. 
As a purebred Dexter she shouldn't need any grain. You could train her to stand perfectly still in the stanchion without any food while you milk, or you could just feed her hay, or what we do is give a mixture of alfalfa pellets (or alfalfa hay), BOSS (black oil sunflower seeds), kelp, and - usually in the winter to fatten them up - beet pulp. 
Our cows are milked just in a headlock stanchion which restrains them better than a rope would.

What breed of beef cows did you have?


----------



## Goatgirl47 (Oct 23, 2016)

When my Nubian bottle doeling needed two quarts of milk each day, I used to go out to my tamest cow (Violet) and milk her out in the pasture without any feed or anything to restrain her with. She did pretty well, considering those were some of the first times I had ever done it!


----------



## WindyIndy (Oct 23, 2016)

Great, thanks! I don't plan on feeding any grain. I don't feed any to my animals, except a little corn when I want to worm the sheep. Just to help call them up. They seem to like bread and carrots now though so I can use less corn (yay!).

I'm trying to figure out how I can cheaply make something. I suppose I should have something elevated since she's shorter?

For our first beef we had a Hereford, then Holsteins, then an Angus Holstein cross. I'm going to raise my girl's bulls to butcher and then sell her heifers (I may decide to keep one, but I'm not sure. I'm going to see how one goes first).


----------



## WindyIndy (Oct 23, 2016)

Goatgirl47 said:


> When my Nubian bottle doeling needed two quarts of milk each day, I used to go out to my tamest cow (Violet) and milk her out in the pasture without any feed or anything to restrain her with. She did pretty well, considering that was one of the first times I had ever done it!



That's so cool! I would really like to milk her with min restraints or non at all, just wasn't sure if that was smart or not


----------



## farmerjan (Oct 23, 2016)

I have a little different take on the milking. Understand first, that I have had cows that I could milk out in the field with no problem. I prefer that the animal has a regular and normal place to be milked.  It is her spot and she is there for business.  I also prefer some type of restraint, a neck chain or stanchion will keep her in place and tell her that she is there until YOU are done.  When she is in a bad mood, comes in heat, or whatever, you will have a place to keep her safely, and if she should get an injury, or mastitis or you want to graft a calf on her for any reason, she will be familiar with a routine.  I do feed some grain in the milking  spot/stall.  Alfalfa pellets, beet pulp or anything is fine. That's a personal preference.   It is also relaxing for the cow to be munching...I feed a certain amount of grain, and she has alfalfa hay to eat when she eats what grain she gets.  I wouldn't try to get something elevated for her, as a young first calf heifer, her udder will be higher up than an older cow so you should be able to milk her fairly comfortably.  If you use a small bucket to milk into, you might be able to sit it on an upside down 5 gal bucket to get it up higher to the udder, but that's not that big of a deal.  Get a block of wood from a sawmill  or cut off lengths of  say  2x12's that you can stack a couple on top of each other under her to elevate the bucket.  Try to find a 3 gal bucket that you can sit on and still reach under her, or an old fashioned milking stool that is in the neighborhood of 18 inches high or so. 
The thing is, teaching her to milk for the first time, if she kicks and is not restrained, she will learn alot of bad habits about not HAVING to do it if she doesn't want to.  She will be swollen and tight when first fresh, and sore, and she will be uncomfortable with the whole process.  If she learns that she can get away from you, that she can kick and move off, that you are not in control, then you are on your way to a spoiled cow that will not be worth anything to anyone.  I AM NOT SAYING TRUSS HER UP SO SHE CAN'T MOVE.  Just establish certain procedures, boundaries, acceptable behavior so that milking is a good experience for both of you.  Once she gets in the routine, not tying her, milking in the field or anywhere it suits are options... but she needs to learn what is expected.  And if a cow gets in a routine like that, she will be more likely to let her milk down more easily and quickly for you to get her milked.  I have several that do not get tied and just stand there at the manger but there are a couple that get their neckchain attached and they are fine.  Since you are only dealing with one it won't be a problem of one trying to steal someone else's feed/hay...I have 2 that are pigs and will gobble theirs and go to the next one and shove them out of their spot.  Tying works wonders to keep peace.


----------



## WindyIndy (Oct 23, 2016)

That is great advice, thank you! I definitely want to start her out right and teach her kicking is a big NO. What would be the best way to correct her when she does? I'm used to training horses, not cows    Is it a good idea to start tying her up or put her in a stanchion right away and play with her udder, or what until she has milk?  Also, does anyone here do the once a day milking? I was reading about that, and then leaving the calf on for the other "milking".


----------



## Bossroo (Oct 23, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> Congrats! I hope all works out for you   As a young Dexter, you should be able to just put it in the back seat of your car to take it home with you   Hope you'll share more stories/pictures when you get her. She's a beauty!


Don't forget to put a CORK into the rear end of the calf or carry a shovel , deoderant  and a bucket.


----------



## WindyIndy (Oct 23, 2016)

If only you could!    I think I'll use the trailer, hoping the lady can just follow me home the same day, I want her home asap!


----------



## farmerjan (Oct 23, 2016)

Have done alot of once a day milking.  I milk the cow, then turn them in with her after I am done.  NO do not leave any milk in the udder for the calf as the cow will learn to not let it down for you.  They,  it,  will get plenty to drink over the course of the day even if they act like they are starving when you first put them in there after milking. So figure when you will have more time to milk; lock the calves away from the cow say in the evening, milk in the morning and turn the calves back in with the cow when you are done.  Then separate again at night and milk again next morning...or vice versa...You will find that the calves get really smart real quick and won't want to come in so they aren't separated from mom;  my advice is to put her in a separate field for the "non-calf" time and then turn her into the calf field the other half of the day if you have trouble getting jr.  away from her.  I think you are also on the other thread about asking for advice for milk equipment etc and I also adressed the touching and getting the animal used to being handled.  Just remember, since you have worked with horses, any "spoiling" of the animal will make it a brat, and often show cattle that are handled alot are some of the worst actors in the barn when they come fresh.  Another reason to have a specific place where they understand they are there for a reason.


Bossroo said:


> Don't forget to put a CORK into the rear end of the calf or carry a shovel , deoderant  and a bucket.


----------



## farmerjan (Oct 23, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> Don't forget to put a CORK into the rear end of the calf or carry a shovel , deoderant  and a bucket.


Use a 50 lb. feed bag, tie the calf's legs together and slide the calf in it backend first so that any pooping will stay in the bag.  Done it many times in the cold weather to bring home new calves from a farm, in the truck...


----------



## greybeard (Oct 23, 2016)




----------



## Latestarter (Oct 24, 2016)

Now there's simplicity! Why didn't he just do that in the bed of the truck and save hauling the trailer around. Seems they are both at about the same level... just need a ramp to get in and back out.


----------



## WindyIndy (Oct 24, 2016)

You guys are all too funny!! I can just picture all those scenarios  

Oh! And if anyone has any name ideas that would be AWESOME! I'm one of those people that needs the 'perfect' name.    It's been one of my dreams to have a milk cow, but can't think of any good names to kind of mean that. Luna crossed my mind. I don't want anything "common" either. My sheep have Star Wars themed names, and my goats are Marvel.


----------



## WindyIndy (Oct 31, 2016)

I bought Luna yesterday!!!!!  I can't believe I'm the proud owner of a heifer!!!!!!  I've wanted one for so long, and now I actually do! God has blessed me greatly with better paying jobs so that it would even be possible. I'm so thankful!

The lady can't deliver her until sometime in the evening during the week, or afternoon on Saturday/Sunday. I can't wait!!!  I wish I had remembered to take pics, but rest assured she'll get lots when she's here  

I fell head over heals in love with her when I saw her, she's SO TINY! And her ad picture doesn't do her ANY justice what's so ever, she's way cuter in person and is a lot more black. I hope she comes home soon.


----------



## Green Acres Farm (Oct 31, 2016)

Congratulations!

I hope pics are coming soon!


----------



## Latestarter (Oct 31, 2016)

What ^^ she said! Pics girl, we need pics!  Without pics, it never happened!  Grats!


----------



## Mini Horses (Oct 31, 2016)

Big congrats!!!   I'm jealous.


----------



## TAH (Oct 31, 2016)

Congrats
Pics


----------



## Baymule (Nov 1, 2016)

Congrats! On feed, you might want to look into a fodder system. You can make your own. It is basically a grain sprouting system, I think there are threads on BYC on it.


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 5, 2016)

I'm proud to report that Luna just came home about an hour ago!!! 

I can post some pictures now too! 

Sadly, she somehow got scours between now and when I looked at her Sunday. The lady I got her from did say they just recently put a salt lick out though and that Luna was really going at it. She thinks maybe Luna just drank too much water, does that sound about right? She doesn't look or act sick, she's eating too. I do have some probiotics that I can give her that I got last year for the sheep when they were sick.  Any other ideas?


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 5, 2016)

The lady gave me this hater for her since the one I bought was too big. I'm still thinking I may buy her a new one, probably blue or black. I got her a cow halter but the lady said even the special made Dexter halters still tend to not fit them very well. She said this is a wealning horse halter and that they seem to fit better. Also, do you all think I should take her tag out? I'm not going to have so many that it's really needed.


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 5, 2016)

Leave the tag in, it doesn't hurt her.  If she should ever get out into a neighbors field, on the road anywhere, and doesn't have a halter on, it might help to identify her more quickly.  Do not leave the halter on her in any pastures where she can even remotely get it caught on anything....It won't "break loose" if she gets it hung up.  That is why I use the cattle neck chains with the slip ring ....like the way you put keys on a key ring...but they are made that they will pull apart if an animal gets hung up and really fights it.  It's a safety thing.  The cattle neck chains are available from nasco catalog.  Our local co-op doesn't even carry them anymore because "no one puts neck chains on cows anymore" . The chance of anything like that happening are slim to none; but it only takes one time....freak accidents are waiting to happen on farms.....
Yes they can and do overeat the salt and can/do get "loose" from it so don't panic as long as she is eating.  Best thing is to use some loose salt/mineral , give her less than a handful a day until she seems to "get her fill".  Or use just a red salt block, trace mineral, and put it out for her for a few hours a day until she no longer "wants" it as soon as you put it out.  They will usually "overeat" most anything new you give them.  Make sure she has warm ears and a cool nose and is eating/drinking and you will be good to go.
SHE IS CUTE.....


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 5, 2016)

That's actually a good idea, hopefully she doesn't get out, but you never know  

I was thinking about only keeping the halter on until I could consistently catch her, the last thing I want is to be chasing a calf all over the pasture. Our pasture is pretty bare except for a few shade trees, but they lost all their lower limbs from our beef cows  I'll look into the neck chains though, thanks.  

Great news! I did give her some of my loose multipurpose mineral, she just sniffed it. 

Thank you!! I think so too!


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 5, 2016)

If you are only going to keep the halter on her til she gets easy to catch then you are probably fine, especially if there are no lower limbs she can get caught on.  As soon as she associates you with food, be it a small piece of apple or a handful of grain or anything, I doubt you will have trouble catching her.  Until she starts to feeling her female hormones and then when she starts coming in heat.... One thing, do not push against her head/forehead or in any way let her think that any kind of head butting is okay.  Scratching ears is fine, rubbing under the chin or the neck or anything is good; just not to where she thinks that head to head is a game.  She will learn a bad habit, you can get hurt, and it will be next to impossible to break her.  Head to head is one way a cow/bovine establishes pecking order.  You can't win that one when she gets big (even as a small size cow) don't start it so she never tries you.


----------



## Bossroo (Nov 5, 2016)

Keep  the ear tag in as USDA wants to know where the bovine lives as well as where it came from in case of a communicable disease such as mad cow, etc. . In cases where there is no ear tag if the animal shows any signs of illness, the USDA Vets. just may have it put down immediately.  Also,  if there is no tag while you are transporting it and a law officer stops you, the law officers may have it confiscated as stolen .  Then you will have to prove the ownership in court. etc.


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 5, 2016)

@Bossroo ; I don't think that Windy 's heifer has an "official" ID tag.  It looks to be  a simple plastic number tag like we put in each of our calves when they are born to identify then and match them to their mother when we move them around.  If she has a metal tag or an official ID button I didn't see it in her ear.  If she is of beef breeding; which is what I would claim this heifer to be if I were stopped for any reason; and under the age of 18 months she does not have to have an official ID nor does she have to prove ownership unless she is stopped for suspicion of theft.  It is better to not be in a position to get them to want to stop you and to go out of state there are rules for a vet certificate.  All the guys I know here that transport cattle in the big trailers have bills of sale from the buyers to prove ownership but they mostly all are crossing state lines.  And unless she is microchipped or is branded or has an indelible tattoo, there is no way to "prove" which animal this is. DNA testing can be done and many registered breeders are doing it.  This is one of the reasons that so many of us cattle producers have fought the whole Official ID as even the electronic tags and the "official" tags that the USDA has "approved"  have been known to come out.  I deal with this constantly with the registered animals that my dairy farmers have; as it is now, the law states that all animals of dairy breeding must have an official ANIMAL ID.  Tell that to the registered holstein breeder that uses the official tags at birth and then as a yearling all of a sudden 2 out of 20 don't have any tags in their ears. It happens more than you think.  And the rigamarole to go through trying to explain why you have now "issued" her a new "official ID" as "BY LAW" they cannot have 2 official ID"S.   Honestly, this is not REALLY so much for disease control and all that that they have led you to believe.  It is more to be able to be more intrusive into your personal lives and down the road to BE ABLE TO TAX you on your animals as personal property....
For example, with an official ID , I sell a 450 lb. dairy breed calf; it goes to a backgrounder who has it for 30-60 days; then it goes to a grazer who runs it for the winter on wheat; then it goes to another feeder who runs it on summer pasture; then it goes to a final feedlot to be finished. If they find anything wrong with that animal they go to the last owner and then trace it back to the breeder.  I HAVE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT ANIMAL FOR 18 MONTHS, BUT THEY WANT TO COME BACK TO ME?????

It is a smoke screen to being able to trace more of your personal information than anything else.  Have already known one farmer who had to get a lawyer to deal with an animal that was traced back to them and they had to prove who they sold it to...when...and how the drugs could not possibly have been in the animals system that long to show up positive, and that they had never used that drug in the first place.

All that said, I bangs vaccinate all my heifers, which gives them an official ID for 2 reasons.  By being vaccinated for brucellocis(sp?) they can be sold anywhere in the country.  There are states with a bangs problem as it occurs in bison and is contagious.  Also it gives me a positive way to identify my heifers if they get into someone else"s field because they not only get a tag or button, but they also get a tattoo.  It proved my ownership of 7 heifers that wound up in someone else's field one time, and they were not going to let us have them back.  I had the papers to prove they were mine and was prepared to get the sherrif to  force the issue.  So we just do it.  It's a one time vaccination, has to be done by a state vet but it's done and that's it.  Has to be done between 4 and 12 months here in Va.

Another aside note;  they wanted to force all poultry breeders to "identify" every bird on their place and keep a record and prove where that animal went if it was no longer there....tell that to the fox or hawk or eagle or owl or raccoon that takes it off...But the big commercial poultry "factory farms" of confinement birds only had to have one number for the whole house....so how does that identify the individual birds that maybe were sick?????  It got vetoed...for now.


----------



## Baymule (Nov 5, 2016)

government %$^&%^^ corrupt ba$tar%$#@#$%


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 6, 2016)

Morning everyone! I'm happy for the time change because now I get to spend more time with the animals before I need to go to work! 

Farmerjan, thank you for those tips about her head, I knew that for sheep, but not for cows. I will definitely be mindful of that now. 

As for the tag discussion, yes it's just a simple tag to identify mother's/babies or within your own herd. The government is no fun sometimes, I'm sorry for all the trouble then can cause. 

Luna seemed to get though the night well, she ate all her hay, corn, and drank about a 1/3 of her water. Her stool was getting firmer last night but is soft again this morning. Her tail is covered in fresh and super dry stuff, I'm going to try and soak it in warm soapy water when I get home and see if I can't wash some of it washed off. For the most part I'm trying to raise grain free animals, I do feed a little whole corn as a treat and for "bucket training". The lady I got her from said something about giving her a grain mix to help her stool. Would that make a difference? Could I just keep giving her corn instead?  I only have whole corn so it takes longer to digest and stays in the system longer, but being Luna is a calf should I get her cracked?  I gave her a little more corn this morning and she even licked some out of my hand!!  She didn't want to take anything from me last night so I was very surprised and happy! 

Bottom line, I'm head over heels in love


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 6, 2016)

What do you all think of this halter for Luna?

http://www.statelinetack.com/item/weaver-original-adj-halter-w-snap/E001015/


----------



## Baymule (Nov 6, 2016)

That looks nice.


----------



## SustainableAg (Nov 6, 2016)

Congrats on your first milk cow! I must admit I am green with envy, as a milk cow is a few years away for us. However, Dexter's are my favorite breed - and one I am strongly considering if I can find a breeder nearby.


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 6, 2016)

Unfortunately, you will find that any animal that eats whole corn will only get 50% use out of it.  The digestive enzymes often do not do a very good job of breaking down the outer part of the kernel, which when ground is known as the bran.  It is very hard and not well digested.  The corn does not stay in their system long enough for them to get full benefit.  The only ones that can fully utilize it are poultry as they have a gizzard that actually grinds it.  If you look at the manure of any cow that is getting whole corn, and even coarse cracked corn, there will be alot of undigested particles/kernels in the it.  It all goes through at the same speed, whole or cracked.  Dairy farmers that feed alot of corn silage usually have a "kernel processor" on the choppers/combines that they chop the corn with in the field, in order to further break down the kernels so that more is digested in the rumen faster.  I wouldn't feed whole corn to anything except my poultry as you are putting some money into the manure not the animal.  We have a large grinder mixer that we put whole corn, dried distillers grain for protein and alfalfa hay into and it grinds it up to the consistancy of very coarse corn meal when we have a group in the barn on feed. 
Straight corn does not have enough protein for her, it is an energy feed that runs in the neighborhood of 8% protein, and will not supply all the nutrients that her growing body needs.  In the perfect situation, a calf will stay on it's mother for 8-10 months, getting a more balanced diet from the milk and the roughage( grass, hay etc) that it eats.  In the real world of humans determining when a calf gets weaned, you cannot expect them to get enough nutrition from just hay and grass  at the much younger age.  Their mothers' milk supplies alot of the stuff their bodies need to grow.  She really does need a more balanced ration of some sort of protein and vitamins/minerals  along with the hay in order for her bones, and body to grow.  Being a smaller breed also, she cannot possibly eat enough to draw the nutrition from hay alone.  Even a high protein hay like alfalfa.  
We are a grass based beef operation.  I finish my jerseys on grass for the freezer with a couple pounds of grain a week.  That's more of a treat than  "being on feed".  But when we wean calves off our cows at 4-500 lbs. they get a couple pounds grain per head per day at least up to 6-700 lbs weight and they are close to a year old. On just grass, or hay they get pot bellied, and just don't grow properly.  Unless we have a sale for a certain size calf, like the 425 lb steers we sold recently,  we are leaving the calves on the cows longer unless the cows are losing body condition, since the calves just do better and look much better.  I would think that a calf grower, NON-MEDICATED, of 14-15% protein will do her the best.  By the time she is a yearling and grass is growing good, she will be able to get most of her nutrition from that and a mineral supplement.  We use both loose mineral, and TM salt blocks.  The loose mineral has salt in it too, but some animals seem to prefer the blocks, so I get around that by putting a block in each mineral feeder and pouring a bag of loose mineral all around it so the get some mineral when they are licking the block.
Please feel free to ask anyone else, I don't claim to have all the answers.  Just don't shortchange the heifer while she is growing or she will never  develop to her potential.


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 6, 2016)

Also, you don't want her manure to be too firm.  Not running out and not so loose as to go through a keyhole at 20 paces, but soft enough that it is not so defined in tight clumps.


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 6, 2016)

SustainableAg said:


> Congrats on your first milk cow! I must admit I am green with envy, as a milk cow is a few years away for us. However, Dexter's are my favorite breed - and one I am strongly considering if I can find a breeder nearby.



I hope you can find a breeder and a reasonably priced calf! If Luna wasn't such a good price, I wouldn't have gotten one either.


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 6, 2016)

Wow, I never thought about it that way before, thank you once again Farmjan for your wonderful advice!  I always thought whole corn would digest slower and stay in the system longer, but pooping it out does make since, that's probably why I always saw the chicken pecking though our steers droppings.  

That does make since about her needing more nutrients since she isn't with her mama, I plan on letting Luna wean her calf. Unless that will make her start to dry up sooner, then I could take the calf away a month early or so. I'm happy to hear that you raise them on grass too so you can see how I want to raise them. I like to eat as natural as I can, and I can't eat grain myself  I'll call our local feed store and see if they have anything that will work for me, I know daddy go stuff from their years go. If not I'll have to check into tractor supply and farm fleet. 

I was wondering how they could get potbellies on just grass though? I thought grains and stuff would cause the blot? 

You never stop learning, good thing I like to keep an open mind and learn all I can. I just love being a part of this board!


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 6, 2016)

I almost forgot to say, but Luna was licking me tonight! And if I stopped scratching her she would ask for more! I forgot just how ruff their tongues were. She was licking my face


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 7, 2016)

So I called our local feed store and all they had for feed was a non-medicated 12% protein feed or a 16% protein medicated with Lasalocid feed. I'll post the feed bag tags and if you all have any thoughts on what would be better I would really appreciate it! I did get some of the 12% for now just to get her by, she doesn't seem to like it too much though, or maybe it's just too late and she's filled up on hay.  I just want what's best for my girl.

16%





12%


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 7, 2016)

The 16% will be non-medicated after the first of the year due to the VFD requirements of needing a vet script for medicated feed.  We feed a 17% stocker type pellet to our animals as a "come in for a treat" feed to get them willing to come to call.  It is non-medicated.  I use a 14% calf non-medicated feed for my milk cows as they like the molasses better and mix it with the 17 % stocker pellet when they are in the barn when I am getting them situated with grafted calves and when I am milking.  I don't push them for production and they get alfalfa hay to eat after they finish the grain, for the hour or so they are in there.  We have our 17% stocker done custom with DE in it for parasite control and add TASCO which is a kelp for added vit and minerals for health.  I think the 12% will do until after the first of the year and the medicated feed gets "un-medicated".  Or try TSC and see what is available.


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 7, 2016)

I'm so glad the 12% will do for now,  I just hope she starts to eat it.  Maybe I should mix it with corn? I'm glad to know that it won't be medicated anymore. 

Here's what Tractor supply has 
http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/dumor-calf-starter-18-feed-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005
People say their calves don't really like this though
http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/producers-pride-calf-starter-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005

And farm fleet has this non medicated, it has two different medicated ones.  Since this is sweeter and 16% maybe I could mix it with the 12%? 
https://www.farmandfleet.com/produc...sweet-16-all-purpose-horse-and-calf-feed.html

I also only feed our grass hay,  I thought about maybe buying some alfalfa pellets when she's lactating.  I don't want to push her either though, I don't need much milk, enough for her calf and our family. Oh,  and our local feed store can custom mix feed too, but you need to buy 500lbs worth, I don't need that much!! 

Thank you for your patience, i'm so new to this whole feed thing.


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 7, 2016)

If your local feed mill will do 500 lb batches you are lucky.  We can do 1000 lb on mineral, and 2000lb  (1 ton) on feed.  But we get 2-4 tons of feed at a time to put in the feed bins as we have alot of animals and it saves having to handle smaller amounts in bags.  In the colder months it also "keeps" so it is not a problem.  The 17% we get is multi-purpose, we use it for the cattle & the sheep. I always used to feed a 16% sweet feed when I only had my horse and she liked it fine.  If you want to mix a little corn in,  so she will eat it better that won't hurt, it will decrease the protein  a little bit but eating is better than not eating.  Let's face it, no matter how good it is for them, if they don't eat it it's not doing them any good at all....The farm fleet sounds similiar to what I fed years ago.  As far as I am aware,  the lasalocid  (bovatec) and rumensin  (monensin) that are coccidiostats will be under the Veterinary feed directive list of drugs that will be by script.  So, the medicated feed from the local feed store should be changed.  
One thing to think about; chickens carry cocci and can infect cattle.  Calves are especially suseptible so be careful of how much contact the calf has in confined quarters.  It doesn't seem to be as big a deal out in the open pastures, but can be a problem in the barn if she is in close contact with bedding etc that the chickens can scratch through and subsequently poop in and it gets mixed in.  Had some calves get coccidiosis that we blamed on having turkeys and meat birds in that stall as overnight confinement 2 years before; they free ranged during the day.  Can't guarantee that was it...but have to watch it now even though it has been 4 + years.  Can't "sterilize the stall"  very well so I am careful to watch for blood in the calves manure.


----------



## Latestarter (Nov 7, 2016)

Hey Jan, this has been discussed on here in a number of other places and I can't point right to them directly, but I believe the VFD requirement is for antibiotics only, and only those antibiotics that are dual purpose and can/are used with/for humans. That will NOT include coccidiostats as part of the vet required prescription.


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 8, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> If your local feed mill will do 500 lb batches you are lucky.  We can do 1000 lb on mineral, and 2000lb  (1 ton) on feed.  But we get 2-4 tons of feed at a time to put in the feed bins as we have alot of animals and it saves having to handle smaller amounts in bags.  In the colder months it also "keeps" so it is not a problem.  The 17% we get is multi-purpose, we use it for the cattle & the sheep. I always used to feed a 16% sweet feed when I only had my horse and she liked it fine.  If you want to mix a little corn in,  so she will eat it better that won't hurt, it will decrease the protein  a little bit but eating is better than not eating.  Let's face it, no matter how good it is for them, if they don't eat it it's not doing them any good at all....The farm fleet sounds similiar to what I fed years ago.  As far as I am aware,  the lasalocid  (bovatec) and rumensin  (monensin) that are coccidiostats will be under the Veterinary feed directive list of drugs that will be by script.  So, the medicated feed from the local feed store should be changed.
> One thing to think about; chickens carry cocci and can infect cattle.  Calves are especially suseptible so be careful of how much contact the calf has in confined quarters.  It doesn't seem to be as big a deal out in the open pastures, but can be a problem in the barn if she is in close contact with bedding etc that the chickens can scratch through and subsequently poop in and it gets mixed in.  Had some calves get coccidiosis that we blamed on having turkeys and meat birds in that stall as overnight confinement 2 years before; they free ranged during the day.  Can't guarantee that was it...but have to watch it now even though it has been 4 + years.  Can't "sterilize the stall"  very well so I am careful to watch for blood in the calves manure.



Wow, that's a lot! I am glad they only do 500lbs then. I did the math and I guess that would only be 10 bags of 50lbs, I guess I may go though that before shes a year, I was thinking it was more feed then that.  I guess I'll call and see how much it is, it might actually save me money since the sweet feed is $12.49 and the 12% is $10.00, so I would need to be buying those both. It'll be $22.49 for the two, lets say I would need 25 bags of each to make the 500lbs. That cost would be $562.25....wow!! That's a whole lot more then I thought! Hopefully I can get it cheaper thought the feed store. I want what's best for her, but I also need to budget. 

I'll see if Luna ate her feed over night before deciding if I should mix some corn in it. 
And if I do make a custom mix, I'll ask for the 15% protein, but is there any other percentages I should specifically ask for? I could also ask for some extra molasses too so she'll eat it, since I'll be portioning it out I would have to worry about it being too sweet and her gorging on it.

Oh dear, that doesn't sound good. The chickens can get to her where she is, but they're too scared  I'm thinking about letting her out into the big pasture with the horses this weekend. She seems to be doing really well about trusting me. And she doesn't share the same bedding, we use shavings for the chickens and I'm using hay for Luna until I can get her straw. The farmer I'm getting it from hasn't contacted me yet about when he can bring it over.


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 8, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> Hey Jan, this has been discussed on here in a number of other places and I can't point right to them directly, but I believe the VFD requirement is for antibiotics only, and only those antibiotics that are dual purpose and can/are used with/for humans. That will NOT include coccidiostats as part of the vet required prescription.


According to our feed mill,  you are right in that they will not be included in the required VFD.  It is when they are a part of a mix with something like oxytet or aureomycin that they will require it.  I knew that I'd seen them on the list, didn't remember that it was in the mix produced by some companies.  Since we had that disaster with losing those cows this spring, and the one vet saying that we should feed the mineral with rumensin, I got to thinking that I was going to need him to write a script for it.  I am not that big a fan of ionophores but if that's what it takes to be able to use that pasture and never have the financial disaster, as well as the heartbreak, of losing cattle again, then that's what we will do.  We finally just moved some animals there again, after making sure they all got blackleg shots, and after we have had some light frost which will take care of the lush growth that seemed to be part of the cause. We never got to pastures 4 and 5, and 3 was only grazed for a week so we will have grazing until real cold weather.  It was never diagnosed definitely as blackleg, or ABPE or anything else.  Everything was inconclusive....over $1,000 vet bill and 12 dead cows later and we are still not sure...lost 3 of the 12 calves too after we had moved them home.  One good thing, we did save the bull, and the other 4 cows and calves and they seem to have recovered.  They got resigned to having to go through the chute every 3 days for nearly 3 weeks for shots.  The bull used to be a little aggressive, not mean, just very active but this has slowed him down to where he is very laid back. Haven't pregnancy checked them yet but I would be surprised if they are.  They will get a second chance if they are open. The bull will definitely have to have a fertility test before we use him again.  He'll go out of rotation this fall as we have enough other bulls to not have to use him. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.  Have had a couple cows shot over the years during hunting season, but this was heartbreaking.  They officially died from lightning since there had been several severe storms right at the same time and two were looking like it, but no one was positive what it was.


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 8, 2016)

WindyIndy said:


> Wow, that's a lot! I am glad they only do 500lbs then. I did the math and I guess that would only be 10 bags of 50lbs, I guess I may go though that before shes a year, I was thinking it was more feed then that.  I guess I'll call and see how much it is, it might actually save me money since the sweet feed is $12.49 and the 12% is $10.00, so I would need to be buying those both. It'll be $22.49 for the two, lets say I would need 25 bags of each to make the 500lbs. That cost would be $562.25....wow!! That's a whole lot more then I thought! Hopefully I can get it cheaper thought the feed store. I want what's best for her, but I also need to budget.
> 
> I'll see if Luna ate her feed over night before deciding if I should mix some corn in it.
> And if I do make a custom mix, I'll ask for the 15% protein, but is there any other percentages I should specifically ask for? I could also ask for some extra molasses too so she'll eat it, since I'll be portioning it out I would have to worry about it being too sweet and her gorging on
> Oh dear, that doesn't sound good. The chickens can get to her where she is, but they're too scared  I'm thinking about letting her out into the big pasture with the horses this weekend. She seems to be doing really well about trusting me. And she doesn't share the same bedding, we use shavings for the chickens and I'm using hay for Luna until I can get her straw. The farmer I'm getting it from hasn't contacted me yet about when he can bring it over.



Don't panic over the coccidiosis, I just wanted you to be aware of it.  It doesn't usually affect older animals, mostly just baby calves.  Since I had calves in the pen where the turkeys had been, even a couple years later, it showed up and I had to treat it, so it got me to thinking that you should know about it.  Since she is weaned and eating, it probably will not be of any concern.  Shavings is fine for her bedding too, or straw.
I would tell the feed mill you want a calf grower type ration, 15-16% protein.  They can probably do an all pellet or a textured feed and most textured feeds have some molasses.  Don't get extra molasses as it gets like a brick in the winter.  In fact our feed mill uses a molasses and soybean oil mix for the winter feed formulations that get delivered in bulk like we get, so that it will flow enough to come out of the feed bin hopper door at the bottom of the bin.  If she is eating the pellets she will be fine, but if she seems to like the sweet feed then I'd go with that.  Our 17% is an all pellet feed and the animals like getting feed so they don't quibble over what they get.

It doesn't seem like so much when you only buy one or two bags at a time, but it's not cheap to raise a calf through 2-2 1/2 years to calving.  Just for a reference, most dairy farmers, that have bulk feed rates and all their feed in quantity,  figure that it costs a minimum of 1500 to 2000 to get a heifer from birth to calving.  Granted that's a holstein, and bigger than Luna...but we figure it costs us over 1200 to get a heifer to calve into our beef herd.  We figure, counting the value of pasture,  an average of $400 per year to keep a beef cow.  That's over  1.10 a day.  And a growing heifer costs a bit more as she is growing and we do feed a bit more grain once they are weaned to make sure they grow and don't just exist.  That's on good years where there is sufficient pasture, not droughts.  And that's figuring on "quantity" since we make our own hay and we don't exactly "pay ourselves" wages for the work, even though we do have to pay any help we hire.  We run alot of cows, and make in the neighborhood of 3000 5x6 round bales of hay and about 2000 small square bales which we sell alot of them.  We will have plenty of hay this year, but like to have a couple hundred to carry over in case the next year is dry. 

  With the sharp drop in prices of feeder cattle this year, from the difference in the spring sales to the fall sales, we will lose a third of the income. There's no making that up; and prices are forecast to stay down for the next several years.  We are holding over about 50 of the heifers til after the first of the year to see if there is anything to the suggestion that there will be an uptick in prices.  But there are alot of farmers talking doing the same....If nothing else they will be a bit heavier so more pounds to sell.


----------



## Bossroo (Nov 8, 2016)

WindyIndy said:


> Wow, that's a lot! I am glad they only do 500lbs then. I did the math and I guess that would only be 10 bags of 50lbs, I guess I may go though that before shes a year, I was thinking it was more feed then that.  I guess I'll call and see how much it is, it might actually save me money since the sweet feed is $12.49 and the 12% is $10.00, so I would need to be buying those both. It'll be $22.49 for the two, lets say I would need 25 bags of each to make the 500lbs. That cost would be $562.25....wow!! That's a whole lot more then I thought! Hopefully I can get it cheaper thought the feed store. I want what's best for her, but I also need to budget.
> 
> I'll see if Luna ate her feed over night before deciding if I should mix some corn in it.
> And if I do make a custom mix, I'll ask for the 15% protein, but is there any other percentages I should specifically ask for? I could also ask for some extra molasses too so she'll eat it, since I'll be portioning it out I would have to worry about it being too sweet and her gorging on it.
> ...


When you want to buy the 500 # to get the cheaper rate you will most likely then not have to buy 500# of one type or the other but NOT 250#  + 250# of each type.  Just saying !


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 8, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> When you want to buy the 500 # to get the cheaper rate you will most likely then not have to buy 500# of one type or the other but NOT 250#  + 250# of each type.  Just saying !


I know what you mean, I think that "Windy" was thinking of buying the feed at the feed store and mixing half and half...Yeah the feed mill won't split a 500# batch half and half...Ours won't even do less that a ton at a time...


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 8, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> I know what you mean, I think that "Windy" was thinking of buying the feed at the feed store and mixing half and half...Yeah the feed mill won't split a 500# batch half and half...Ours won't even do less that a ton at a time...



Yes, that's what I meant, thanks.


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 8, 2016)

I'm sorry for all the heartache you had Farmerjan  I'm glad you found some answers though and things are going better for you.

I called our main feed store again and the 500lb in 14% protein would $70-75. I was talking with a nutritionalist there and she was saying that she thinks I should feed Luna 2-3lbs of feed a day and that the 16% from Farm Fleet should be fine, it'll just be a little more protein,. She said as much as she would love for me to buy feed from them, she thinks the 16% will be more economical for me. I guess the only way it would be is if I didn't need 500lbs before she's a year old.  I can't remember if I posted this before, but we also bail our own plain grass hay, and I give her free choice of that. I thought maybe once she had her calf and was milking that I would buy her some alfalfa pellets and give her those while I milk her. 

Oh, and Luna ate all her feed without any added corn


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 8, 2016)

WindyIndy said:


> I'm sorry for all the heartache you had Farmerjan  I'm glad you found some answers though and things are going better for you.
> 
> I called our main feed store again and the 500lb in 14% protein would $70-75. I was talking with a nutritionalist there and she was saying that she thinks I should feed Luna 2-3lbs of feed a day and that the 16% from Farm Fleet should be fine, it'll just be a little more protein,. She said as much as she would love for me to buy feed from them, she thinks the 16% will be more economical for me. I guess the only way it would be is if I didn't need 500lbs before she's a year old.  I can't remember if I posted this before, but we also bail our own plain grass hay, and I give her free choice of that. I thought maybe once she had her calf and was milking that I would buy her some alfalfa pellets and give her those while I milk her.
> 
> Oh, and Luna ate all her feed without any added corn


There is no reason that they can't up their protein 2% to a 16% feed if they are mixing their own feed there.  It's a simple matter of more dried distillers or soybean meal or whatever protein source they are using...Any  nutritionist can do the math and up it.  I am surprised that they didn't  say that.  And you can feed that feed to anyone at any time.  But you need to pencil it out and do what is best.  It just surprised me to read your post that she didn't say yes they could do it...Do they make a 20% feed??? you could get the 500 lbs of 14%,and a 50 lb bag of 20% and put a cupful of 20% in her feed daily and get it up to a 16% and still save money.  Yes, keep hay in front of her as they seldom will overeat hay unless they are not getting a little grain.  She'll eat what she wants & needs and will do fine.  Once she gets big enough to breed, then calve, alfalfa pellets will do her good in the protein dept or some alfalfa hay while you are milking.


----------



## WildRoseBeef (Nov 9, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> Yes they can and do overeat the salt and can/do get "loose" from it so don't panic as long as she is eating.  Best thing is to use some loose salt/mineral , give her less than a handful a day until she seems to "get her fill".  Or use just a red salt block, trace mineral, and put it out for her for a few hours a day until she no longer "wants" it



I've never heard of cattle having loose stool from over-consuming mineral or salt. I have, though, heard of loose stools when cattle have access to feed with protein content that is higher than what they need, from stress, or from feed that is ground too fine. So I doubt that the loose stool will be from the salt, and I wouldn't change the salt-mineral mix. She's more than likely eating lots now (or when you were asking) because she hasn't had this for a long time and is making up for what she was denied when she was younger. This is completely normal.



			
				Windylindy said:
			
		

> The lady I got her from said something about giving her a grain mix to help her stool. Would that make a difference? Could I just keep giving her corn instead? I only have whole corn so it takes longer to digest and stays in the system longer, but being Luna is a calf should I get her cracked? I gave her a little more corn this morning and she even licked some out of my hand!!



Unlike what's been said here, she's still at the age where she'll be chewing on the corn, not swallowing it whole. She is getting close to that age though, where she will start to be more gorging on the feed and the whole corn will no longer be chewed. Then she'll need to get cracked corn. Just watch her when she eats the grain. Does she take her time to chew the feed, or is she swallowing it whole without much chewing?

But no, the grain won't help all that much. If you want to solid up her stools, decrease the grain and increase the hay. Increasing cracked grain or even increasing grain will loosen up her stools.

Not surprising if you're feeding whole corn to the older steer that the chickens will peck through them. I'm just guessing but he's more than likely of the age where he's swallowing the grains whole and not bothering to chew them, like he would if he were younger. He needs cracked corn.

But as Jan said, corn alone, though high in energy, is deficient in protein. If you want to bring up protein levels, feed peas, soybean meal, canola meal, alfalfa pellets, corn gluten meal, etc. You will need to figure out what is available.

At her age, she needs between 14 and 16% protein. Go any higher and the protein will just come out as waste in her feces and urine into the soil.

I agree and disagree about the hay not being enough. It all depends on the quality of the hay, and that can only be determined if you sent off a feed test. Hay that is less than 10% protein will certainly not meet her needs, even if it's alfalfa hay. If it was higher, it will, but she will need supplementation for energy. The same goes for grass. They'll get "hay bellies" if the quality of the feed isn't there, and it acts more of a gut-filler than a nutritious source of feed. If your grass is high quality, like over 12% protein with a good balance of energy, then it may be decent feed, but with her breeding she may need a little extra TLC.

I would only recommend an ionophore if she's going to be on a higher-concentrate diet, such as corn silage with some peas and barley grain as not only a coccidiostat, but to combat a metabolic disorder known as acidosis or grain overload. I feel that with this diet an ionophore is completely optional. Since she's getting hay and pasture, it's not all that necessary.

Do you have access to any local producers selling peas or any type of legume, like faba beans or lentils or something similar? Ask around at the feed place. You can easily do your own mix with something like peas and cracked corn plus the mineral mix you're already giving her and be good to go that way without spending extra money on a supplement that doesn't offer much, except a little bit of energy and a bit of protein and a bit of gut-fill (from the modest ADF values on either tags).

Some things to think about. 

BTW, congrats on the new addition!


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 9, 2016)

FarmerJan, I'm sorry, you must have miss understood my post, she only quoted me on the 14% because that was what I was asking for, if I wanted it up the protein the price would go up more. They can make what ever % I want. The lady just thought money wise it would be better for me to go with the Farm Fleet 16%. 

WildRoseBeef, thank you for the congrats! My head is whirling with all the info, but I'm enjoying the learning. When we raised beef my daddy did all the research and buying because they were his steers, I just did the fun stuff and took care of them  
I apologize to everyone for all my questions and back and forth, my brain is very slow to understand and process stuff.  
Are you saying it would be cheaper to mix my own stuff? Should I go with the 500lb feed? I just worry about it going bad. I think she was saying it would be closer to $100 for a higher protein then 14%. I might be near farm fleet today so I could get some of the 16%. If I don't hear from anyone soon I may just buy a bag or two just to get my by while I figure it out. The store is 45 minutes away. 
Help, too many choices! 

Oh! And as far as Luna's stools go, they are completely normal now. They aren't thick, but not runny. They look like what I remember our beef's being  Luna also doesn't swallow her feed, she chews/eats very slowly, like a lady,lol  Our boys would just swallow it if I remember right (it's been a few years) they were at least a year old, maybe older.


----------



## WildRoseBeef (Nov 9, 2016)

This is the 16% with ionophore, right? Just be careful how much you're feeding her. A pound to 1.5 lb per day is the most you want to go because of the rumensin (rule of thumb I've known is to not get above 30 to 35 mg/kg of the ration), but I'm afraid that's not going to be enough for either her protein or energy requirements. So I do think it will be cheaper to mix your own, because you know how much she's getting unlike with just straight-up feeding her a premix. 

It really depends on the quality of the hay, too. If the hay isn't too stemmy, still has plenty of leaf in it, then it's pretty good quality, with good protein and a decent amount of energy, but still not enough for a growing heifer.

No worries on the questions, this is definitely a lot to process. Most people don't realize just how much stuff is actually involved with raising cattle!!​


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 9, 2016)

Thank you for not minding the questions.  This is what I'm looking at https://www.farmandfleet.com/produc...sweet-16-all-purpose-horse-and-calf-feed.html

What do you think? If I did get costume made,  do I need to worry about wasting money since I need to buy 500#? Also, our hay is still somewhat leafy.


----------



## Bossroo (Nov 9, 2016)

I woulds look into "Calf Manna " as a supplement. I have used it for years for all classes of livestock and found that it works very well.


----------



## Baymule (Nov 9, 2016)

I remember when I was a kid, my grandfather had cows and raised his own corn. He'd let it dry, pick it, shuck it and take it to a mill to be ground, cob and kernels together. His cows licked it up. As far as what % protein or anything else,  but his cows were always fat and had healthy calves.


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 9, 2016)

WildRoseBeef said:


> This is the 16% with ionophore, right? Just be careful how much you're feeding her. A pound to 1.5 lb per day is the most you want to go because of the rumensin (rule of thumb I've known is to not get above 30 to 35 mg/kg of the ration), but I'm afraid that's not going to be enough for either her protein or energy requirements. So I do think it will be cheaper to mix your own, because you know how much she's getting unlike with just straight-up feeding her a premix.
> 
> It really depends on the quality of the hay, too. If the hay isn't too stemmy, still has plenty of leaf in it, then it's pretty good quality, with good protein and a decent amount of energy, but still not enough for a growing heifer.
> 
> No worries on the questions, this is definitely a lot to process. Most people don't realize just how much stuff is actually involved with raising cattle!!​


The reference to the rumensin was basically directed towards latestarter when we were discussing the antibiotics to fall under the VFD here in the US.  As far as I know windy isn't using any rumensin or bovatec in any of her feed, I did not suggest it or encourage it.  It was in reference to my cattle situation, in the mineral on advise of 2 different vets.  
For only one calf I feel that she would be much better off and safer with a premix feed or a custom mix from the mill.  And I agree with @Bossroo about adding a little calf manna to the feed.  We added it to our feed for some of the smaller calves and use a little for the sheep when they are getting ready to lamb and again just before the rams go in.  To try to assemble all the needed ingredients for one small Dexter calf in the proper ratio is more trouble than it is worth; when there is feed available that would be adequate for the calf.


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 9, 2016)

I would love to grow my own someday.  I'm slowly adding to my little farm.  

A friend told me about another feed mill to try.  They could do as little as 200# batches!  I'm ordering some non-medicated 15-16% from them.  We'll see how that goes.


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 9, 2016)

I agree with farmerjan,  as much as it would be nice to mix my own, right now with only one heifer and me still learning about the different feeds I think it would be too much right now.  
I'll try and find that calf manna, I completely forgot to look at farm and fleet! 
I did buy some plain salt blocks too.  The lady I was talking to at the other feed mill said it's nice to offer that in addition to free choice loose mineral


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 9, 2016)

Baymule said:


> I remember when I was a kid, my grandfather had cows and raised his own corn. He'd let it dry, pick it, shuck it and take it to a mill to be ground, cob and kernels together. His cows licked it up. As far as what % protein or anything else,  but his cows were always fat and had healthy calves.



We also use ear corn that is still on the cob and grind it when we are doing batches for feeder calves in the barn.  Add some protein and a vit/min premix to balance it a bit.  It's just to give them a couple pounds a day to come in to the barn and to keep them growing.  The calves do like it.  I'm sure that your grandfather did it to give them a little extra and to keep their energy up in the winter which is when we feed it.  Not very high priced when you can grow it yourself, as all the older farmers I know used to do.  We have a source of corn, both on cob and shelled that is cheaper than we can grow it, local, and since we are not in the grain business, it is a better deal for us to just get it that way when we are not getting the 17% from the feed mill.  In fact we often mix the two together.  Have fed ground corn many times through the winter to the cows just to give them a little extra than just hay.


----------



## WildRoseBeef (Nov 10, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> The reference to the rumensin was basically directed towards latestarter when we were discussing the antibiotics to fall under the VFD here in the US.  As far as I know windy isn't using any rumensin or bovatec in any of her feed, I did not suggest it or encourage it.  It was in reference to my cattle situation, in the mineral on advise of 2 different vets.
> For only one calf I feel that she would be much better off and safer with a premix feed or a custom mix from the mill.  And I agree with @Bossroo about adding a little calf manna to the feed.  We added it to our feed for some of the smaller calves and use a little for the sheep when they are getting ready to lamb and again just before the rams go in.  To try to assemble all the needed ingredients for one small Dexter calf in the proper ratio is more trouble than it is worth; when there is feed available that would be adequate for the calf.



Well, there's nothing wrong with offering alternate suggestions, especially with future reference.


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 15, 2016)

Hey everyone! I sure have missed posting, but I just haven't had the time with everything going on. 

I do have more Luna pictures for you all, I hope that makes up for the silence  This was my second time walking her though my horse pasture trying to get my horses used to her and vis versa. My mini likes to chase anything in her pasture that's new, but since I walked Luna around for a couple days that seemed to really help and there wasn't much chasing!  Annie was even trying to groom Luna for a minute 

I hope you all don't mind, but I'm also going to post a pic of her stool, it's like soup again. Could she be having too much grain? Protein? Something else?  It was normal at one point.

PS: I also noticed  after I got her home that she has a white stripe under her belly! And today I noticed that she may have a slight hernia. Her belly bottom seems "poofed out' and 'squishy'. Anything to be concerned with?


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 15, 2016)

Who is that new creature?!


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 15, 2016)

And here's her stool


----------



## WildRoseBeef (Nov 16, 2016)

Yikes. (But love the rest of the pictures!) What are you giving her right now? May need to up the hay and reduce the supplement, just to start.

Also, can you send a picture of the supplement you're giving her? I've a feeling it might be too fine for her. I know I don't want to complicate things for you, but when she's getting finely-ground feed, that will be too easy for her to digest and cause her to be shooting real loose! Again, more hay, less supplement I think may help. Deworming may also be needed...


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 16, 2016)

I'm glad you liked the pics! I'm giving her a non medicated 16% calf feed that I got from the feed mill. I feed her 1lb in the morning and 1 at night. I'm also mixing this with a little big of the 12% yet as I wasn't wanting to jump from feed to feed. It's about 3/4 quarts of the 16% and 1/4 of the 12%.  I thought about worms too, I work at the vet tomorrow so was going to bring in a fecal sample and have it tested. 

I noticed today that my mini horse isn't letting Luna by the hay, water, or mineral either.  Probably means she's not allowed in the shelter and is sleeping outside too. I'm wondering if I shouldn't winter my mini with the sheep, though I don't know if my LGD Maggie would like that too much.  I might just have to decide between her and Luna


----------



## WildRoseBeef (Nov 16, 2016)

Try cutting the supplement back to 0.5 lb twice a day for a few days to see how that works. Her poop needs to be not so loose like that you showed, but loose enough that it makes a nice pat that has some shape to it. (Just FYI and DIK: If it gets hard and rounded, then the protein needs to be upped; you don't need to worry about that though.)

Horses are going to be bossy, I'm not surprised to hear this. When horses outnumber a beast that is obviously non-equine, they get ousted pretty bad. And horses can be mean to those outcasts too, as you're seeing already.  So Luna might be better off with the sheep, as her and the goats can take similar mineral, plus they'll get along better. And you don't know if Maggie's going to accept her as part of the herd until you try, you can only hope, right?  Besides, Luna looks to be about the same size as the sheep, so I don't see how Maggie won't accept her as part of the herd, IMPO.

ETA: Feed looks good, BTW.


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 16, 2016)

I will try that, thanks. And if Annie is keeping her away that means she isn't getting any hay either. She's eating what little grass is left 

Indy isn't really being mean to her, mostly Annie. She even bossed our HUGE beef steers when we had them. I was thinking Annie with the sheep. Do you think the ram would bother Luna? And then when Luna is bigger she can go back in with the horses? I won't be able to put any copper mineral down for her, maybe her grain will have enough?  Maybe I could walk Luna around for awhile in their pen and see how they react?  Should I give it a couple more days with the horses and see how it goes? Animals have to complicate everything don't they  

Thanks, I'm glad it looks good!


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 16, 2016)

I honestly question putting Luna in with the horses at all until she is an adult and then from the sounds of it the mini will still be a problem.  The looseness is most likely caused from a lack of hay/bulk in her diet and the grain is going through her quicker and the molasses is making it more runny.  I think trying her with the sheep as they are more her size. 
She is too young to have anything restricting her diet especially hay and with the colder weather coming on.  I used to have some horses, and there was always one that had to have an attitude towards the couple of cows.  They got fenced separately because I did not want to deal with a horse with an attitude when all the cows were doing was trying to eat some hay, or drink from the water trough.  If even the mini takes a notion and kicks her, Luna could wind up with a broken leg.  She looks too calm and sweet natured  and probably wouldn't know what was coming until it was too late.  We have some boss cows but when they get full then the others can go get hay.  Horses will just be bullies and will run an animal off even when they aren't interested in eating; just cuz they can.


----------



## WildRoseBeef (Nov 16, 2016)

WindyIndy said:


> I will try that, thanks. And if Annie is keeping her away that means she isn't getting any hay either. She's eating what little grass is left
> 
> Indy isn't really being mean to her, mostly Annie. She even bossed our HUGE beef steers when we had them. I was thinking Annie with the sheep. Do you think the ram would bother Luna? And then when Luna is bigger she can go back in with the horses? I won't be able to put any copper mineral down for her, maybe her grain will have enough?  Maybe I could walk Luna around for awhile in their pen and see how they react?  Should I give it a couple more days with the horses and see how it goes? Animals have to complicate everything don't they
> 
> Thanks, I'm glad it looks good!



Luna's a head-bunter like the ram, she'll be able to take of herself with the sheep herd. It's not all that uncommon to have cattle with sheep, especially given the chance for them to get used to each other. But I would definitely not put her back with the horses when she's bigger. Jan's right, horses are just plain mean, even if it doesn't seem like it, and will continue to be mean even when Luna's gotten more mature and bigger. A couple more days with them won't change anything, sorry to say. She needs to be put somewhere else ASAP; some how I think the horses may be the other reason she's getting runny, one because she's eating too much grain and not getting enough hay (horses are to blame), and because of the stress they're putting on her. 

You'll have to figure something out with the copper. You may have to have a copper bolus put in her once a year (or per the vet's recommendations) so that she gets the copper she needs without you having to compromise the health of the sheep with potential copper toxicity problems. Or, set up a small pen where you can put her in and only allow her in there and feed her the mineral that way. No way the grain will have enough. I believe either option will work, but it depends on what you're willing to work with. The bolus is less work for you for sure, I'll tell you that much!


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 16, 2016)

The only problem with Luna in with the ram is if he gets too aggressive as he is mature and she is not.  She might butt heads a bit but if he gets the best of her it might make her shy away from him and he could get to be a bully.  Then again, being a different "species" he might just be wary enough to leave her alone, not knowing what she "could do" 
We are running our younger Dall rams with our big bulls....about 20 younger rams in with anywhere from 4-10 full size breeding bulls.  They totally ignore each other. The rams are about 1-2 yrs old.  And contrary  to all the advise and all the research and all the info on mineral for sheep, we have found that our sheep are doing better than they ever did having access to the cattle mineral.  OH HORRORS....So as we are "doing it wrong"  I will not advise you about the whole copper thing with the sheep vs the heifer.  One thing I do find, there may be more to it than just the copper content, as we are now using mineral that has kelp in it and they seem to be benefiting from that....sometimes I think we "customize" things to such extremes that we are missing the point of the animals ability to seek out what they individually need. 
My personal vitamin and mineral needs can be very different from another woman of my exact age,  height and weight.  We can't feed for each individual animals' need in a herd of 10 or 50 so you try for an average.  I think that putting a handful of cattle mineral in Luna's feed bucket once a week or so will help to take care of what copper she may be needing.  Put it in the bottom of the feed bucket, her feed on top, and she will eat some/leave some and it will get ingested .  When she gets done eating her feed, put the bucket up so no one else gets into it, and then it will be like custom feeding her mineral, without the sheep getting into it.


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 20, 2016)

I ended up moving Luna to the sheep pen. They ignored her the first few days, even running away from her. They don't run as much but they don't seem to be bothering her to much either, granted I'm not out there as much since it's colder. I had the ram tied up and she was the one to walk over and start rubbing all over him and headbutt him   I'm still watching Maggie as she growled at Luna a little. Maggie was drinking and Luna came up behind her. 

Luna still has the runs BAD too. I cleaned her tail and by morning it was completely covered again. I haven't been able to worm her yet because I realized I didn't have anymore syringes, the soonest I can get one is either Tuesday unless farm fleet would have some then I could get one tomorrow. I never did get a fecal but the vet said to us ivermec. I have the kind you use SubQ, or the vet said you can give orally too. It's clear liquid, the dosage is 1cc for ever 110 pounds. Should I give her 2cc's?  I also did drop her grain down to half a pound twice daily, and she has free choice hay,water, a salt block, and loose mineral.


----------



## WildRoseBeef (Nov 21, 2016)

What is everyone's consensus on her weight? I say around 400 pounds, but Windy I think you need to get a weigh-tape to get an accurate measurement on her weight so that you can give her the correct dosage. She doesn't look to be 200 pounds, hence my guess, but am curious to see what others think!


----------



## WildRoseBeef (Nov 21, 2016)

Oh and go ahead get a fecal done. It won't hurt to see what's ailing her.


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 21, 2016)

By the looks, and knowing she is a small breed I would say not over 300 lbs.  I would worm her and just see how she acts.  It could be the change of water....hey, they say don't drink the water in Mexico......she might have a bit of an upset from that as well as a complete change of life from before. And she is now having to re-establish her place in a different pen with the sheep.  If she is eating good, and can get to the hay with no more fighting or being run off, I think that it will straighten up.  Give her a little time as long as she is eating.  That is the big thing, make sure she is eating. It is so hard to just move a young animal on your own place, let alone a completely new home, routine, feed, water, and other animals to deal with.  I wouldn't cut back on her grain anymore as she needs the protein.  Did you consider calling the lady you bought her from and ask if she has had any problems with any of the young ones being real loose or what she might suggest?  It's not saying that you are doing anything wrong, it just might be something she has seen or dealt with before and can make a suggestion...


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 21, 2016)

One other thing, use the wormer SQ so that it will be absorbed a little slower.  If she happens to have a high worm load, it could actually make her sicker in the short run by doing it orally.  It can actually kill a sheep if they have a big parasite load and they suddenly get wormed and they all die and are passed all at once. The little bit of a shot won't hurt her, I'd go no more than 2.5 cc if you haven't done a fecal on her.  We mostly use pour on now and only if they look like they need it.  We have slowly been culling cattle that seem to have a big worm problem and also those that tend to have calves that constantly get pinkeye.  I do believe that you can build up some resistance to it and it is obvious that we have much less pinkeye problems and fewer animals that need alot of worming in the last few years by keeping heifers that are out of cows that we consider "easy - keepers".  Our biggest problems are in bought cattle and the first calves born out of bought cattle.  I think they need time to build up some immunity to our "bugs" that they are newly exposed to.


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 21, 2016)

Thank you guys. I always worry about over estimating that's why I said 200, wish I would have thought to look for a measuring tape at Farm Fleet today. I will definitely do SQ, I don't want to kill her! 
She is eating, and drinking. I keep two hay nets in their shelter. Thought I do worry sometimes that Maggie keeps them out of the shelter (she growled once at them when I was down there), but the hey nets are gone by morning so maybe not? The sheep and her are getting along well it seems too, she was rubbing on my ram again. I definitely think she's happier with the sheep and I'm very glad for that.  
I could contact the lady, but I don't thinks she'll be much help. When she dropped Luna off she was very surprised to see the runs saying she didn't have that before, she thought it was due to the fact that Luna gorged on a salt block therefor drinking more water before she came. 

My problem with getting a fecal is it needs to be no older then 24 hours, so if she doesn't go when I'm there I have no idea how old the ones in the pasture are. Or do you think I could scrape some off her tail? Though I still may run the risk of getting some old stuff. 

I'm sorry to keep bothering you guys with this, but I do really appreciate it! I just want Luna to be ok. She doesn't act sick, but I still worry about her. She's my baby. She moos whenever she hears my voice, even if she can't see me, she's up at the gate waiting for her breakfast/dinner, she fallows me around in the pasture, I just love her.....

Here is a pic of her tail, it was clean


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 21, 2016)

I honestly think it is more change of feed,water,environment etc than anything else, and not getting enough hay for the few days she was in with the horses. Yeah, it's messy and not great to look at, but .... Since she seems to be doing well with the sheep and the hay is gone in the morning, you have to hope and trust that she is getting hay now.  Worm her and then give her a week or 2 before you panic.....really I think she will get straightened out once she gets fully comfortable where she is.  Sounds like she is adapting to you real well and as long as she is wanting to eat, I would just relax a bit.  If the weather is warm, wash the tail off real good, then if she messes it, you will know if it is "new manure". I have a weaned holstein calf that is constantly loose, runny and I just quit getting excited about it.  He would rather pick at grass than eat any hay so he stays loose.  It'll get better in another month when the grass finally gets short enough that they are eating more hay.  The orphaned beef heifer that he was raised with doesn't have the problem.


----------



## TAH (Nov 21, 2016)

How are your hay bags set up?


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 22, 2016)

I have been trying to relax more, thank you. I actually found a fresh pile form Luna in her bedding this morning that I didn't see last night, I was so happy! Plus, it was a little thicker too!  Kind of like applesauce. She barely had any worms (I was surprised, I figured she would have been loaded!), but the ones she did have are rounds, whip, and coccidia. The vet said to give her the ivermectin, and also gave me trinethoprim-sulfa pills. 7 a day for a week. 

I'll post pics of my hay net set up. Usually I just use the the two black ones, but will sometimes use the green as well if the sheep are hogging the other. Though then they see Luna and come get hers as you can see in the pics  They were only half full this morning.


----------



## WildRoseBeef (Nov 24, 2016)

Great to hear!! I think she's finally on her way to finally settle in well to your herd.


----------



## WindyIndy (Nov 24, 2016)

I think she is too, she had normal poops this morning!!! I'M SO HAPPY!!!! 

Now that she's feeling  better I'm going to slowly up her grain back to the 2 pounds so she gets enough to grow on. She always leaves the last two of her worm meds in her grain so I have to shove them down, though now she's figuring out how to push them out with her tongue. Stinker, lol. I have to hold her mouth closed as she chews them


----------



## farmerjan (Nov 24, 2016)

Use a baling gun to get the last few doses down her, she can't get them back up.  She won't like it but once they are partway down her throat she will swallow them.  We have one that is smaller for calves/sheep and a big one for the big cattle.  Indespensible when you need them, we don't use them much but....Also have a "nose catch"  that we seldom use but when you need to get inside a cows mouth and my 6'6" son can't manage to hold her in the chute it is also worth it's weight in gold to catch the nose and you have control.....  
Sounds like LUNA is getting to a "normal";  I really do think it was a lack of hay/solid roughage that was making her so loose.  Glad to know that it is finally getting to where you are feeling comfortable with her condition...She is cute.


----------



## Lanthanum (Dec 25, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> Have you looked into Nubian or Nigerian Dwarf goats? Both have very high butterfat content, and are small, easy to handle, and also make great pets!
> 
> Nubians can give a gallon + a day and little ND's can give 1-1.5 quarts a day.
> 
> Maybe I am a little biased.


Pygmies also, but they have a very small amount of milk. You get them if you want just one glass a day, well more like 2/3 of a glass haha. Even when my Bonnie looked like she was about to bust, all the milk the gave me filled up one small bowl. Ugh but milking her was a pain because even though I've had her four years and she was never abused, she hates being touched. She had to be milked or it would hurt her so I had to leash her and hold her tightly while she was thrashing about to get all the milk I could.


----------



## Green Acres Farm (Dec 25, 2016)

All mammals can give milk, but that doesn't necessarily make them a dairy animal. 

I've had to milk out a pygmy, too. Not easy. Teats are tiny and I only got a small stream at a time while she was squirming. And all for a 1/4 cup of milk.


----------



## farmerjan (Dec 25, 2016)

How is Luna doing?????


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Dec 25, 2016)

Lanthanum said:


> Pygmies also, but they have a very small amount of milk. You get them if you want just one glass a day, well more like 2/3 of a glass haha.


As someone who has raised pygmies for a very long time I can tell you from experience that there are pygmies who give much more than 2/3 of a glass of milk a day.    I raised a doe who I milked for over a year and she gave me over a quart a day until I dried her off.


----------



## Latestarter (Dec 25, 2016)

It could have just been that she wasn't "letting her milk down" where you could get it, because she didn't want to be involved in the first place.


----------



## Lanthanum (Dec 25, 2016)

Yeah I had to give up milking her because she was kicking and screaming bloody murder and that's all I came back with. This was when her kid was stillborn so all I had to milk was enough not to hurt her


----------



## Green Acres Farm (Dec 25, 2016)

frustratedearthmother said:


> As someone who has raised pygmies for a very long time I can tell you from experience that there are pygmies who give much more than 2/3 of a glass of milk a day.    I raised a doe who I milked for over a year and she gave me over a quart a day until I dried her off.


Wow! How long did you keep her in milk?


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Dec 25, 2016)

I milked that little gal for over a year.


----------



## WindyIndy (Dec 30, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> How is Luna doing?????



Hi! Sorry for the delay in posting, been crazy here between work, farming, and normal day to day living. I'm also having knee trouble and need to go back to the dr Wednesday. I'm too young for this! 

Enough with me, Luna is WAY more fun to talk about    She's dong very well!! The runs never come back and her 2 week fecal re-check came back negative I hadn't done anything with her halter training training for about a month so decided to take her out when it got nice. Once I finally caught her, she walked like a pro! I only had her out twice before the break but she remembered! I can tell she's a fast learner, I'm just proud of her.  I had to leave her halter on as she's scared of it and the rope, once she gets more comfortable with it I'll take it off each time again. I've also been tieing her outside the fence to eat as she's been dropping too much grain and Maggie eats it then gets ear infections, sigh. She hasn't learned to stand tied yet, she likes to dance  She's very good at letting me touch her all over though and I have even lightly squeezed her teats and she didn't even bat an eyelash.


----------



## farmerjan (Dec 30, 2016)

So glad to hear she is doing well.  She will get used to the halter and all once she realizes it won't hurt her, and if she gets to eat good stuff when she is tied then she will get to where it will be a good thing  to her.  They do learn.  Like our cows that will go in the trailer in the field.  They equate it with going to new grass and feed.  Have a great new year.


----------

