# Do goats need grain?



## Heather Law (Nov 11, 2018)

I have a bit of a problem. My property is very small and by necessity the goat pen is really close to my house. I’ve wanted dairy goats for a while and in January I finally got a couple of two year old does. I only bred one so as not to overwhelm myself as I learned to milk.  She had triplets in June and I started milking when the babies were old enough to be weaned and sold. I did tons of reasearch online and read as many books as I could get my hands on because I wanted to do things right. I decided to free choice grass hay, one cup each alfalfa pellets and give the doe in milk grain on the milk stand twice a day when I milk. It went great for a while but once the doe in milk figured out the milking routine she began to “talk” a lot around milking time. It started with just a little but got louder and louder as time went one. Eventually it was loud, open mouth bleating starting at dawn until I milk at 7am, then again around 3 until I milk at 6:30pm and also every time I go outside or she sees me through a window. After a while the other doe will join her and them it gets really loud. I tried all sorts of things to shut them up. Ignoring them, squinting them with the hose, giving them fresh hay (big mistake), setting and alarm and strictly sticking to my routine. Eventually I realized it was the grain she was after and decided to stop giving it altogether. That really made her mad for about a week and then, miraculously, she stopped. I didn’t realize just how much the noise stressed me out until it stopped. It was bad enough that I had found myself closing the blinds and sneaking past windows so she wouldn’t see me and avoiding going outside at all costs. I have close neighbors and I didn’t want them to be upset by the noise either. After a while of silence I tried reintroducing grain to the routine and day one she was back to yelling. Is it ok to just not give her any grain or does she have to have it to be able to produce milk without getting thin? She is healthy looking now but hasn’t been without grain for long. The other doe is due to kid in January and I’m afraid to give her grain when I start milking her. Any suggestions? If they can’t live without it then I’ll have to give up and not have goats because it’s just not worth living with the noise.


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## WILLIFORD (Nov 11, 2018)

I am new to the whole goat thing, but I have done a lot of research prior to getting my goats. From my research any goat that is pregnant or lactating does need grain. Any goats that are not lactating or pregnant only need good quality grass hay. If she is getting all the good quality grain she can consume during milking twice a day, my first suspicion would be the hay you are feeding them. I personally prefer a legume hay (clover or alfalfa). It has more protein, vitamins and nutrients that grass hay. Also I do not feed first cut hay, as it is lower in protein than second cut or greater. I understand this type of hay may not be readily available in your area, but with this in mind you maybe able to supplement accordingly. I'm not saying this is your problem, but it is where I would start. Also make sure you have a mineral block for them, keep in mind most livestock mineral blocks do not supply enough copper for goats, so you will want a copper supplement as well. These are not very expensive and last a long time. Just a note, my goats are very quite, until they see some indication I might be around, like a light comes on in my shop or house, or they see a someone in the yard, then they a are calling out for attention.


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## Heather Law (Nov 12, 2018)

WILLIFORD said:


> I am new to the whole goat thing, but I have done a lot of research prior to getting my goats. From my research any goat that is pregnant or lactating does need grain. Any goats that are not lactating or pregnant only need good quality grass hay. If she is getting all the good quality grain she can consume during milking twice a day, my first suspicion would be the hay you are feeding them. I personally prefer a legume hay (clover or alfalfa). It has more protein, vitamins and nutrients that grass hay. Also I do not feed first cut hay, as it is lower in protein than second cut or greater. I understand this type of hay may not be readily available in your area, but with this in mind you maybe able to supplement accordingly. I'm not saying this is your problem, but it is where I would start. Also make sure you have a mineral block for them, keep in mind most livestock mineral blocks do not supply enough copper for goats, so you will want a copper supplement as well. These are not very expensive and last a long time. Just a note, my goats are very quite, until they see some indication I might be around, like a light comes on in my shop or house, or they see a someone in the yard, then they a are calling out for attention.


Just to clarify, are you thinking the problem may be that they aren’t getting enough protein and they are yelling because they are hungry? I did try out several types of hay because they are picky and won’t eat just anything. They were getting alfalfa for a while but they didn’t like it so I settled for the orchard grass because they love it and that is what most people in my area feed their goats. They have as much hay as they want, the alfalfa pellets, loose goat minerals and baking soda available at all times. I just don’t think it is a lack of nutrition causing the noise because when I stop the grain she stops throwing a fit. I think its more of an issue of her prefering grain because it’s tasty and she wants it right now. It may be worth noting that I gave them a copper bolus in August because they were showing signs of deficiencie and their condition quickly improved but the noise didn’t change. I’ve heard that copper deficiency can cause them to be louder and feel hungry all the time.


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## WILLIFORD (Nov 12, 2018)

just a thought and this may sound off the wall. Can your goats see your house from their location. Where I'm going with that is the only time my goats become vocal, is if they know someone is around that might give them attention. My goats can not see my house but my two dog can from their doghouse and when they see the light come on in the morning, they are at the backdoor knowing they are going to get fed and petted. You probably think I've gone  of the rails, but your issue had me puzzled considering my goats are pretty quite. One more thing that just occurred to me, could she be in heat?


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## WILLIFORD (Nov 12, 2018)

Heather Law said:


> Just to clarify, are you thinking the problem may be that they aren’t getting enough protein and they are yelling because they are hungry? I did try out several types of hay because they are picky and won’t eat just anything. They were getting alfalfa for a while but they didn’t like it so I settled for the orchard grass because they love it and that is what most people in my area feed their goats. They have as much hay as they want, the alfalfa pellets, loose goat minerals and baking soda available at all times. I just don’t think it is a lack of nutrition causing the noise because when I stop the grain she stops throwing a fit. I think its more of an issue of her prefering grain because it’s tasty and she wants it right now. It may be worth noting that I gave them a copper bolus in August because they were showing signs of deficiencie and their condition quickly improved but the noise didn’t change. I’ve heard that copper deficiency can cause them to be louder and feel hungry all the time.


I'm sorry for not answering your initial question, but yes they could be lacking in protein, or possibly some other nutrient that your hay is not providing. However as you stated, others in your area are using this hay without issues.


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## WILLIFORD (Nov 12, 2018)

WILLIFORD said:


> I'm sorry for not answering your initial question, but yes they could be lacking in protein, or possibly some other nutrient that your hay is not providing. However as you stated, others in your area are using this hay without issues.


It sounds like you have done your home work before getting your goats, but just to be safe and I'm probably stating something you already know, but you have to change their diet very gradually, or bad things can happen.


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## Latestarter (Nov 12, 2018)

What breed of goat do you own? Understanding that goats, like people, have their own distinct personalities, some breeds are more prone to being "loud" than others. Nubians are noted for being very loud goats. Lamanchas are known to be generally quiet. Other breeds have their own idiosyncrasies... Some goats are much more friendly/attention needy and they crave to have you near them. Others, not so much. If the only time you ever spend with them is when milking and hence delivering food, then that is all they will associate with seeing you. You = food! and Goats, as you probably figured out, are always hungry. I would suggest that you make it a habit of visiting with them at random times, unplanned, and without food, just to spend time with them. At other times, maybe bring a light snack with you like a few animal crackers or cookies. Another issue you may not have considered is boredom. If they are always confined in a very small space, they could be bored. Do you ever let them out? do they have any "toys" to play with? Goats are very curious animals and need "stimulation" much like human kids do... something to keep them occupied.

Take a book and go out and sit with them and read for a spell. Eventually they'll figure out your presence doesn't always mean food and they'll "go about their business" while you sit there reading. When I go out the back door, my goats almost always come running. They greet me at the gate to the pasture hoping that I have something for them. As soon as they know I don't, they wander off to do goat things. They generally aren't loud and don't scream when this happens. When I'm out there working, even though they know I don't have food, they'll come up for a scratch or to hear me talk to them. They like to help me with any task I happen to be doing, tasting my tools and such... And they'll often try to lead me to where I'm going, causing a trip hazard, but they're just trying to help!

As for the grain issue... Some goats are "easy keepers" and don't need grain, & milk just fine while maintaining body condition. Most goats do require a bit "extra" when lactating as it draws a lot of reserves to produce that milk. I feed my dairy goats pelleted feed (processed grain) twice a day, morning and evening. They get more when they are in milk or when there isn't much browse available to them. They also get hay twice a day after their pellets. I used to feed hay free choice but my goats are kinda hoity toity snots and won't eat the cheap stuff. I've tried from cheap all the way to pure alfalfa and am now feeding them a mix of alfalfa and orchard grass. This mix is one they really like and there's much less waste with it as opposed to any other hay I've used. I feed them flakes twice a day because when I was feeding them free choice in a hay feeder, they were pulling out all the choice bits and wasting the rest. I was loosing over 1/4 of each bale to waste and I couldn't afford that with what I pay for hay. Now I break off a few flakes into their big feed bowls and give it to them that way. They eat virtually all of it. You will need to adjust quantity till you find the right mix and amounts for your goats.

They (mine) know when feeding time is. I set up their feed bowls outside their night pen and pour the pellets in then open the gate so they can get out to eat. After the pellets, I take the bowls to another area and fill with hay and return and drop the bowls for them. When they finish their hay, they wander off into the pasture to see what goodies they can find for dessert. In the evening, I set up their feed bowls inside their pen and bring the pellets in and dump into the feed bowls. When they've finished, I once again take the bowls and fill with hay and return. I then close the gate to the pen and they're in for the night. I say this because when feeding time is approaching, they all cluster around the area where they know it will happen. They jostle each other as each wants to be first to the bowl. They growl at each other and some head butting and pushing around takes place, but they aren't "loud" unless I'm really late for some reason.


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## Heather Law (Nov 12, 2018)

Thanks for the ideas. I will try upping the alfalfa pellets to give them more protein as well as spending more time with them. Yes, I know that it’s best to make changes gradually and typically do. I dropped the grain all at once but I was desperate for some peace and quiet. I have Nigerian Dwarf goats and I never thought to search and see if they are generally a loud breed. They are so close to the house that they can see me through the windows as well as hear us if we are making a lot of noise. We make plenty of noise as I have a two year old and a missionary couple staying with us for a year who don’t know any other way to close a door other than to slam it. The goat pen is not huge but sufficient and they have a little bit of alfalfa and bermuda to brows as well as several platforms, rock piles and logs to climb on. At first I was out with them all the time but as the yelling got worse I started hiding in the house in hopes that they wouldn’t see me and start going off. Whether or not they hear/see anything, around 3 evey day they start the complaining. Eliminating the grain from their routine is the only thing that has made them stop which is why I didn’t tgink it was a nutrition issue. Without it, the only time they make any noise is if someone goes near the bucket I store it in so I’m almost 100% sure they are just demanding more. I just don’t know how it could be a nutrition issue if eliminating grain made it stop. Honestly I think the instigator is a big baby who wants her treat right now and will cry until she gets it unless she knows it isn’t coming.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 12, 2018)

I just knew you were going to say they were Nigerians. Second guess would be Nubians.

I have a friend who started with a herd of Nigerians and yes, she had to hide from her goats. It was ridiculous.
Eventually those goats moved on and she has Nigerians still but better behaved ones. 

I will say our goats do get loud if we are late for milking, late for feeding.  We are on farm full time so they see us all the time nd they don't scream. 
FF can be kinda dumb and think they need milked every 5 minutes but eventually they catch on.

Nigierians can  be iffy as far as feed. Some will just get fat on grains but not make more milk. Others really need some to keep up production. 
The biggest thing about them is they are always acting like they are starving- it's the breed. 
We have 2 Nigerians that got up to 90, 100 lbs. They get fat off air.  Yet they act like they are dying because they can't have any grain. (Diet time)
WE have several Nigerians that scream not stop duringg heat. Considering heat is every 3 weeks it is annoying.

Our Lamanchas never make a peep unless they REALLY are mad because you are late milking and a few that scream in  heat.(very rare) 

Our Miniature Lamanchas are more like Lamanchas- pretty quiet. Again though, milking- don't be late!  And they are seasonal so some do get loud in the fall when they cycle until they are bred.
I love the mini lamanchas. Give alot of milk for a small package, great personality. 

It does sound like she is playing you. How old are the goats?  How long did you do the routine?


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## Heather Law (Nov 12, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> I just knew you were going to say they were Nigerians. Second guess would be Nubians.
> 
> I have a friend who started with a herd of Nigerians and yes, she had to hide from her goats. It was ridiculous.
> Eventually those goats moved on and she has Nigerians still but better behaved ones.
> ...


Well I’m glad it’s not just me. I am a do your homework and follow the book to the letter type so I reasearched as much as I could find and have been super strict with my routine. I literally have and alarm on my phone and go milk at the exact same time every day. I have been milking twice a day since the beginning of August. She started getting loud after about three weeks of the milking routine. Scarlet is 2.5 years old and this is her first freshening. The other doe, Butter, is 1.5 years old and hasn’t freshened yet. Butter only joins in when the other doe gets loud. I’ve had a couple of weeks of quiet now that the grain is gone and it has been so nice. I can actually enjoy my goats again. Is it ok to just leave out the grain and watch their condition to make sure they are staying healthy? I don’t want to underfeed but since the copper bolus they both look healthy but not fat and have nice, shiny coats. There has been no change in milk production since dropping the grain. She hasn’t been a great producer but this is her first time and from what I have read is little indication of what she will do in the furture. I weight the milk every day and write it down so I have records. She’s averaging 20oz per day. 
Other than the noise issue I have really loved having goats. Its so fun watching them fake fight in the mornings when they first get up. If I sit down in the pen and give butter attention she will attempt to climb into my lap and lay on me (which would work better if I were a bigger person).


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## Heather Law (Nov 12, 2018)

Oh, and she isn’t noisy just in heat. She actually gets quiet during her cycle and turns in to a blubbering goof who acts like a buck


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## Southern by choice (Nov 12, 2018)

If condition is good and the feed isn't causing increased production then why feed it.  Keep in mind though that often minerals alone may not be an adequate supplement.
California seems to have very bad issues with copper deficiency and selenium deficiency.
If you can get your hay tested that would be great too.


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## Heather Law (Nov 12, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> If condition is good and the feed isn't causing increased production then why feed it.  Keep in mind though that often minerals alone may not be an adequate supplement.
> California seems to have very bad issues with copper deficiency and selenium deficiency.
> If you can get your hay tested that would be great too.


I think I’ll just skip the grain then and watch for issues. Everything I read said that a doe in milk would waste away without grain so I was afraid to stop and not sure what to do. I’ll just keep a close eye on their condition and see how it goes. I think I’m just paranoid because I don’t really have any goat people to talk to and ask questions and the Internet only helps so much. Not sure how to get my hay tested but I can send in blood samples to UC Davis and have them tested for deficiencies cheep since I live in California. They were definitely copper deficient earlier this summer. Rough coats, hair loss on their noses and very ugly fishtails. They look so much better now. Thanks for taking the time to help and inexperienced newbie!


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 12, 2018)

Heather Law said:


> She hasn’t been a great producer but this is her first time and from what I have read is little indication of what she will do in the furture. I weight the milk every day and write it down so I have records. She’s averaging 20oz per day.


I don't agree with what you have read about her first time not being an indication of what she will do in the future.  Her production should increase with subsequent freshenings, but a poor producer is not likely to become a good producer.


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## Heather Law (Nov 12, 2018)

OneFineAcre said:


> I don't agree with what you have read about her first time not being an indication of what she will do in the future.  Her production should increase with subsequent freshenings, but a poor producer is not likely to become a good producer.


It’s been hard to figure out what to expect. I did as much research as I could but everyone had a different opinion. Could you give me an idea of what I should expect? I don’t really have anything to compare her with or any idea of what a decent doe should produce. I just want a family milk goat for my own use so she doesn’t have to win any competitions but a reasonable amount of milk would be nice. If Scarlet doesn’t do much better I will eventually replace her. Space is limited so it isn’t worth keeping a poor producer. I’m just getting started though so at this point I’m just happy to have any milk. I have high hopes for my other doe, Butter. She comes from much better lines and is much more correct. I was also able to see her parents and her dams udder. If she does well maybe I will keep one of her doelings. Any information you are willing to share is much appreciated. There is so much to learn and I’m not even a year in yet. I realize I may sound a little dumb because I only know what I’ve read about. I didn’t grow up around goats so I have no background to pull from. I’m just the crazy person who decided suburbia wasn’t for me and jumped into chickens, gardening and now goats with no idea of what I’m getting into. I do my homework but there is no substitute for experience.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 13, 2018)

We are on DHIR milk test so our records are available to the public through ADGA.
I currently have two 2 year old, first freshener does on test.  Through our last test in October Marigold has produced 587 lbs through 206 days in lactation. (2.85 lbs per day)  Eclipse has produced 599 lbs through 234 days in lactation. (2.56 lbs per day)
Both should earn milk stars as first fresheners so I would say that they were above average.


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## Heather Law (Nov 13, 2018)

OneFineAcre said:


> We are on DHIR milk test so our records are available to the public through ADGA.
> I currently have two 2 year old, first freshener does on test.  Through our last test in October Marigold has produced 587 lbs through 206 days in lactation. (2.85 lbs per day)  Eclipse has produced 599 lbs through 234 days in lactation. (2.56 lbs per day)
> Both should earn milk stars as first fresheners so I would say that they were above average.


Oh wow. That is a lot more than I have been getting. Good for them! Sounds like you have good blood in your herd. Perhaps I should plan on investing in a better doe. Thanks for the help!


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## Southern by choice (Nov 13, 2018)

I agree with One Fine Acre when he says 


OneFineAcre said:


> but a poor producer is not likely to become a good producer.



However there are so many considerations.
1) how many kids in the litter
2) dam raising vs bottle feeding
3) time of weaning and start of milking
4) feed intake and value
5) age of doe

Many leave their dams to nurse and they milk right from the first week. Others wean at 8 weeks and start milking, some 12 weeks... and everything in between. Some issues are how you train the udder to milk. The buck you breed to (believe or not) also influenced production on the doe! Yep, I couldn't wrap my head around that one but there are studies and science behind it. Crazy right?!
Personally I don't care about FF udders or productivity because far too often a goat really show more with the 2nd udder, shape, teats, capacity, production.

I do know a few people that were going to cull some goats based on low production. Then 3rd freshening they went BOOM!  So, was it poor quality hay? The goat? difference in management? Who knows. I will say I think the average from most Nigerians are going to do a quart a day (2#). Those who are doing things to improve overall (conformation, production etc) are going to have better than average milkers. You may have a doe making 3# a day but what about long term? Does she milk 3-4 # but for only a few months and drop to nothing?
Steady lactation even though the # may be lower in the long run is more advantageous.  
Which is pointed out above. 8-10 months is ideal.

This year we had so many FF (we have several breeds) that we dried a bunch off so they could recuperate and just rest for getting bred back. Those FF udders on Nigies especially are really iffy as far as production. Don't give up on your doe just yet.


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## Heather Law (Nov 13, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> I agree with One Fine Acre when he says
> 
> 
> However there are so many considerations.
> ...


Sounds like the best thing I could do would be to just see what happens over the next couple years and educate myself more in the meantime. Her teats and udder are small but soft and easy to milk. I’m not planning to show or anything so I’m not too concerned if I never see off the charts production. Though I do think it is important to try and improve on what I have. I’m not interested in being one of those that buys any old goat and breeds to any buck who has the ‘equipment’ and muddies up the gene pool with poor quality babies.


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