# completely clueless on getting right diet! Could use hints.



## kapfarm (Nov 7, 2009)

O.K. I have no flippin' clue about this bag of grain!
I always thought you feed grain by body weight?
Is that not correct or does it depend on the grain?

I have this nutrition tag from a bag of Boer developer and it says:

FEEDING DIRECTIONS: Feed BOER GOAT DEVELOPER r20 medicated continuously as the sole ration to growing goats......goats may be offered approx 10% good quality long stemmed hay.

What is sole ration? Does this include foraging?

I hope they dont mean to go out and buy 500 bags of this stuff!

I am trying to establish a diet for them but these tags throw me for a loop.

also, the crude protein is "not less than 17.0%" This is 17%/50lb bag?


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## freemotion (Nov 7, 2009)

Most feed bags will have you feeding your animals into obesity or into their graves.  I feed hay when the pasture is dry or if the weather is bad, and grain only to those who can't keep their weight up....pregnant, lactating, growing.  Oh, and Mister Stinky, too!


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## kapfarm (Nov 7, 2009)

So feeding goat grain vs all hay or forage is pretty much like eating veggies with your meal?(except goats seem to like it!)

Basically, if your goats look and act healthy they are eating good enough?

Do you think there is truth in the fact that if a goat has a perfect diet, they have a better chance of having triplets?

Do you get a lot of sickness in your goats? The reason I am asking is because if there is the slightest chance that grain  reduces sicknesses then I am going to continue graining them as a part of their daily diet.


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## freemotion (Nov 7, 2009)

No, I do not believe that grain reduces sickness!  

I have read a lot about increasing twinning in sheep by feeding root veggies, and since my root crop failed this year (completely!!!) I am feeding everyone who is breeding, including the buck, beet pulp and chopped pumpkins.

To give you an idea of the amount of grain I feed, the 80 + pound doeling gets two handfuls of soaked beet pulp and about 1/3 to 1/2 cup lacto-fermented barley twice a day.  My two pygmies get no grain, but one that will be bred is getting a handful of beet pulp twice a day.  The lactating doe is getting three big handfuls of beet pulp and a heaping double handful of lacto-fermented barley, along with the lion's share of chopped produce.  And last, the buck, a little over seven months and about to earn his keep, is getting worked up to more grain now, as he could use more weight.  He is up to two-three handfuls beet pulp, half cup of the barley, and 1.5 cups of the commercial pellets he was used to and will stay on during his short stay here.  He also gets some chopped pumpkin and whatever veggie scraps we have from supper.  He will be increased another half cup of pellets over the next week, then I will watch him.  He is very concerned about his job!

For all the ones getting beet pulp, I soak 1.5 cups of the crumbles in water twice a day for everyone.  For chopped fresh veggies, they are working their way up since I just got a big load of pumpkins and squash from the farm next door that closed for the season.  They are getting about a half gallon a day between the five goats, in two meals and some snacks.  I tend to be cautious with adding new foods, but I am not afraid to add healthy items to their diet when available.  Just gotta be careful not to shock that rumen.

The rest of their food is hay and pasture.  You can also see that I am not a fan of commercial foods for any of my animals.  They are very healthy.  I take in and rehab a lot of sad cases.  I am so looking forward to raising a couple of goats from scratch for a change.


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## kapfarm (Nov 7, 2009)

WOW! that is impressive. I don't have the means to grow a garden right now, I think I will stick to grain for a while, but maybe I will stop reading the bag tags and keep asking questions here. I am feeding 1/2 lb. a day of developer and free eats on the hay. Think this is fine? all are pregnant boers or growing kids.


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## freemotion (Nov 7, 2009)

Yes, my point was, mostly hay and pasture/browse, and just give a little grain to the individuals who need a little more.  A half pound a day sounds about right for a goat in good weight.  Just watch those preggers girls and feel them now and then.  Winter coats can hide slimness.  Free choice hay is great for them, too, unless they get too fat.

Free produce could be all around you. I put an ad on craigslist and talked to people who have big gardens, apple trees, etc.  Some people hate to throw stuff away, and the goats don't mind a wormy apple or scruffy rutabaga or giant zuchinni.  Not rotten or moldy, but not pretty, either.  Chop 'em up small (I use the food processor if I have a lot and put it in small buckets in the fridge) and just feed a little if they are not used to it.  Like half cup twice a day for two days, then a cup twice a day, etc.  Watch for clumpy poo and back off if needed.

Some might argue with me, but it works for my critters.  The proof is just outside my window!


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## kapfarm (Nov 7, 2009)

Maybe I will try the craigslist search for outdated foods. What about breads? I heard they like bread but i am sure you can give them too much huh? 

 I have a older buck that will only eat a certain amount of anything including grain w/ molassas, is this normal?


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## freemotion (Nov 8, 2009)

No bread, no molasses.  The rumen works with bacteria, and you have to be careful not to throw the balance off.

If the buck's condition is good, don't worry so much.  Think of grain as a supplement, not as the main source of food.  Feed on an as needed basis.

Think of how the animal, whether goat, horse, dog, cat, etc. would eat in the wild.  For goats, grain would be a rare treat, and only found here and there in their grazing.  I've never come across a field of wild oats!  Just a few here and there.

Of course, many of today's animals have the hardiness needed to survive in the wild bred right out of them, so we have to keep that in mind.  An animal that is not efficient with their food or one that has a delicate rumen would die, and not pass those genes on.  With domesticated animals, that has changed.  So we have to be more careful.

That is one advantage of my rescued does....they survived in very harsh conditions.  Not that I would ever purposely recreate those conditions to create hardiness....but two of my gals were left to fend for themselves for some time.  Tough little sweeties.  One gets no grain, the other needs some, as she has dairy genes.

Grain on a case-by-case basis.  You'll do just fine!


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## PattiXmas (Nov 8, 2009)

So, it is better to let them graze or hay them?  Won't too much hay give them a hay belly?  I also am confused on this issue.  We give both grain and hay to our girls.  They were bred last month, so I would assume that they are going to need an extra boost to supplement and aid in the development of healthy little kids.


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## freemotion (Nov 8, 2009)

That big belly you see, especially on the left side, is a lovely working rumen.  A very good thing in a goat.  Lots of hay (grazing is ideal if you have it available) = a working rumen.  

Animals don't tend to get a lot of abdominal fat first, like humans.  They are not eating a high sugar and white flour diet, which deposits dangerous fat in the abdomen.  They tend to distribute their weight throughout their bodies.


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## warthog (Nov 8, 2009)

Freemotion, Why no molasses? I thought this would be could because it's high in calcium.


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## kapfarm (Nov 8, 2009)

I may have stumbled across why molassas is not so good for goats! not that I quite understand it.
But I might be done with molassas for goats. Jack and anita Mauldin Have a great goat herd!



A goat with Polioencephalomalacia    


Causes of thiamine deficiency include feeding moldy hay or grain, overdosing with amprollium (CoRid) when treating for coccodiosis, feeding molasses-based grains (horse & mule feeds), ingesting some species of ferns, sudden changes in diet, the dietary stress of weaning, and reactions to de-wormers Thiabendazole and Levamisole. Each of these can interfere with Vitamin B1 production



www.jackmauldin.com/health/goat_polio.htm


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## cmjust0 (Nov 9, 2009)

PattiXmas said:
			
		

> So, it is better to let them graze or hay them?  Won't too much hay give them a hay belly?  I also am confused on this issue.


Why yes, it will give them a hay belly.  

We've got a boer doe and a nubian doe which are each about 3' wide when they lay down..  I love it.  





			
				patti said:
			
		

> We give both grain and hay to our girls.  They were bred last month, so I would assume that they are going to need an extra boost to supplement and aid in the development of healthy little kids.


You don't want to overfeed in early pregnancy.  The kids present most of their deman in the last two months of gestation, so if you overfeed early on, all the extra is going to mama..  If the goat gets too fat early, she's at greater risk for pregnancy toxemia later.


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## zatsenoughcritters4me (Nov 9, 2009)

we buy goat feed for them because they need the copper and other minerals. also we feed them a little corn mixed in, also a mineral block if you want to. and hay and pasture. not much bread, except for an occasional treat but I would not give white bread. for treats you are better off with carrots, apples cut up, molasses we use only when they have babies if the momma's need an extra boost. mostly they need pasture and hay, they also like sticks, twigs, branches they need the roughage to keep their insides working properly!!!
you don't want to feed them too much grain also, they live to eat, and will eat till they bloat ( which is deadly to them) 
we also have baking soda available free choice for them in a container.


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## kimmyh (Nov 9, 2009)

Bread or other flour based products are not good for goat because they can not digest them. The flour based products sit in the rumen fermenting until good feed comes along and pushes the flour based item through the gut (per my vet). For that reason, we do not feed flour based products under any circumstances to our goats.

Goats need loose goat minerals, goats, unlike cows and horses, will not lick a block enough to get what they need, and goats will often try to bite off a chunk. This biting issue often leads to broken teeth-been there, done that.

Polio can be caused from a million things, the thing I would worry about the least is molasses. Sudden changes in a herd dynamic can set it off, too much grain, low little nutritional values, dog/predator attacks, the list goes on and on. Corid, is the last on the list I would worry about. In my vets practice of 30+ years treating exclusively food animals, she said she has seen 2 cases of Corid induced Polio, and that was in goats where the owner was not dosing correctly-they were over dosing.

Please remember when you read web sites, these are the opinions of individual herd owners. What works for them, may not work for you/me. What they have learned may be correct, and it may be WAY off the mark. The cheapest lessons are I believe, learned from a qualified vet that you build a relationship with over time. One example-there is a site often quoted on the Internet that uses herbal wormers and swears by them. 3 people I know who have purchased animals from that herd have found the goats to be full of parasites. Two of those animals died before their new owners could get the worms under control. None of the people I know will ever again buy from that herd. Again, what works for some, can spell death to others.


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## kapfarm (Nov 9, 2009)

True dat! After I wrote about the molassas, I started wondering why so often people say to give molassas water to a new mom goat! things just aren't adding up. This is great. I like this forum, so many owners that have been operating for years and if someone gives a answer that is off a little bit, there is someone who has had a better or different experience that feels free to speak up. thank you all.


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## Windy Pond (Dec 14, 2009)

I have Pygmys and Nigerians.  I too am clueless, all of your comments are very helpful.   I'm worried about my 6 mo. old  Pypmy buckling and grain.  I give him only a small handfull daily.  The whole urinary calculi (sp?) really scares me.  When you're a newby, all this stuff you read is very confusing. 

I am currently feeding a milking goat pellet to the girls, just a enough to fill the palm of my hand.  The feed store convinced me to give the buckling a sweat feed unit  he is 1 yr. old.  I have not given him any yet. Again worried about the whole urinary thing.  Ugh, so much information, it's hard to knowwhat to do.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 15, 2009)

We went through a bout of urinary calculi with a little buckling of ours..  He survived, but barely.  We took both our bucks off grain for a long time there but they weren't picking up much size....what to do, what to do?

The answer for us, so far, has been alfalfa pellets.  Alfalfa usually runs about 6:1, Ca...regular goat grain is usually only 2:1.  The higher that first number, the better, in terms of urinary calculi...  We haven't seen any relapse of UC since we've been feeding the alfalfa pellts, and they've been putting on size again lately.  The only thing to remember is that -- generally speaking -- alfalfa pellets aren't fortified with vitamins and minerals, so you have to keep a good free-choice mineral mix out and refreshed so as not to swap UC for mineral deficiencies..

Otherwise...I don't think I'll ever feed anything from a bag except  alfalfa pellets to bucks ever again.


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## Carolina Chicken Man (Dec 15, 2009)

I have (3) 8 month old nigerian doelings.  I got them back in May when they were just weened.

They live on an acre fenced in that is semi wooded.  It has a lot of saplings undergrowth.  It was all green during the summer.  The girls did a great job of eating most of it during the summer.  At that time I kept coastal burmuda in their hay basket as much as they wanted.  I gave them about 2 cups of feed ( between the 3 of them ) in the morning and then two cups in the afternoon.

All of the browse is pretty much gone now, but they are now eating the briar stems and they will eat some of the bark from the trees themselves.  They are probably from 35-50 lbs each now.  Minnie was a quad and started out a lot smaller and still hasn't caught up.  I'm giving them 4 cups of feed (between the 3 of them) in the morning and 4 in the evening.  Because there's less browse to eat I'm giving them oat hay and fescue now instead of burmuda.  They love the oat hay and I've noticed that they now usually don't finish the feed now.  Will probabaly back it up to 3 cups. 

They seem to be doing very well, nice shiny coats and they aren't too fat.


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## lupinfarm (Dec 15, 2009)

I grain my Pygmy's with 2 cups of 12% goat grain once daily and offer freechoice alfalfa hay. My younger doe is still growing and they aren't gaining or losing weight so I'm pleased.


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## no nonsense (Dec 22, 2009)

warthog said:
			
		

> Freemotion, Why no molasses? I thought this would be could because it's high in calcium.


One person's opinion is not fact. Molasses is very good for goats. If you haven't noticed, most dairy sweet feeds contain molasses. It's good to add it to the water during the end of pregnancy to help prevent ketosis, and it's a useful aid in enticing goats to drink more water, when moving to a new farm, while at a show, etc.


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## helmstead (Dec 22, 2009)

It's not the molasses that is a problem with goat feeds, it's the cob mix being sweetened by the molasses LOL.  This is why I don't recommend sweet feeds for goats - they're usually high in corn and have improper Ca/Ph ratios because they use a cheap cob base...and most people aren't going to research that all out before they buy, so they go buy some crappy all grain and, well...we all know the eventual ending here.

I keep black strap in the goat medicine cabinet all the time, and use it as needed for MANY different things from dosing meds to water additives to putting some on pellets when I have a new animal or an animal who's a little off feed in the end stages of pregnancy.


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## mully (Dec 23, 2009)

Also notice that most high potency energy drenches the main ingredient is molasses. Molasses has many nutritional benefits.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 23, 2009)

We've got a bottle of Brer Rabbit in the goat medicine cabinet.


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## Roll farms (Dec 23, 2009)

My husband got in trouble for using my 'goat molasses' on his breakfast toast.....:/


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## dkluzier (Dec 24, 2009)

:    :

That's so funny!  The closest we've come was having to get out the goat pepto cause we were out in our fridge, not by accident.


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## dkluzier (Dec 24, 2009)

On the subject of feeding goats grain though...  my nephew had boer bucks that someone had given them and in conversation at a family picnic I asked how they were doing.  He said "I lost them all"  I  sadly asked "what happened?"  He told me that someone told him that he had overfed them.  He was feeding them 2 scoops of grain, twice a day.  Not little scoops but the big feed scooper size that probably holds 3 cups!!!  Twice a day - each!!

We feed our goats varying amounts depending on their life events and nobody gets much more than 1.5 cups of grain at a feeding, that's the lactating does who are still feeding their kids too.. we offer free choice hay all year since our pasture is lacking in the high forage that the goats prefer.  We will be working on planting some nice grasses and bushes this coming Spring.  In the meantime I also cut branches mostly pine to supplement. 

As long as they don't bloat and their poops look good, they will continue on the same feeding.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 4, 2010)

We only supplement to condition..  If they start getting chubby, they get cut back.  If they start looking thin, they get bumped up.  Unless you know the nutritional content of whatever hay or forage they're taking in free-choice, and unless you know how much exercise they're going to get from day to day...week to week...month to month...we've found that it's just really hard to be able to say "Ok, they're going to get two cups a day from here on out."  

I feel just behind their shoulder, over their ribs..  I like for them to have just a bit of fat there.  Not much...just a bit!  If a goat's got no fat there, they get some extra grain.  If that doesn't start helping pretty quickly, they get a little more until they start getting a little spongy there..  When they put a little fat on, we start backing off the extra grain..  Some goats are more...stable?...than others.  The less stable goats gain fast and lose fast, so it seems you're always adjusting their feed a bit one way or the other..  The more stable ones gain slowly and lose slowly, so you can be a bit more consistent.  Totally depends on the individual goat you're looking at.

Feeding this way is definitely more trouble than feeding X lbs or cups of grain per day, but I do think its more efficient in the long run..  Fat and skinny goats alike are each expensive goats to keep, in their own ways.


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