# fathers friend wants us to feed lot sheep



## newton the goat (Sep 29, 2017)

We have a small flock of katadhin sheep ( only seven but will double in two monthw or so we hope) so far ive been happy with it but recently my dads friend (who is all about the money) wants us to basically get a loan and turn our newly built barn into basically a feed lot for lambs in the winter and sell them in the spring.... my dad is honestly putting some real thought into the matter and im not sure how i feel about it. Anyone have an opinion? im happy hes asking my opinion but ive never been a fan of feedlots, and will need pro and con facts before im willing to give him a proper answer


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## farmerjan (Sep 29, 2017)

And what will this friend of your dad's have in this operation?  Not to be a smart a$$  but what experience does he have, what will he gain out of it, and how can he be advising this type of operation?  Does he have sheep/raise lambs/have a cheap source of additional lambs/have the time to do all the work if you have to go away somewhere???????  Are your sheep supposed to be some big money making operation or are they a project that you want and enjoy and want to realize some benefit from in meat and sales?  
Bringing in outside animals can put yours at risk for diseases,  and there is additional work and COSTS to make this a "feedlot"  type operation.  Then you add in the more confinement and you get into a whole 'nother  type of management and all.  Honestly, your personal flock will suffer if you are trying to  just raise and enjoy and see a little benefit from your own animals.  
Intensive confinement animal raising will take a whole different mindset and the emphasis will be only the money.  It costs alot more to feed lambs out in the fall/winter and yes they do bring more in the spring as feeders, but you have more in them.  And you are in cold country and that is going to take even more feed to get them fed out.  Taking out a loan on most any livestock operation right now is a real crap-shoot....I would not go into much debt unless I was buying some good breeding animals that would be around for a good while.  Not to try to make money  on a 6 month deal.  
So, increased costs.....purchased animals, purchased hay and grain,  purchased bedding, increased time spent on taking care of the larger number of animals,  increased risk of health problems in a confinement operation due to the close quarters.....VS.....
increased revenue upon sale...but the market is not guaranteed.  
Not taking into account any illness and death loss.... and contamination of your facilities if any animal has any health issues when it comes to your place.


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## Bossroo (Sep 29, 2017)

In any venture it is always about the money. This holds true even if one operates as a hobby farm, then you have to figure in the fact of how long can you operate at a loss or break even at best to pay  all of your bills.  Take a paper and pencil and figure out how much all of your true operating costs for your Katahdin sheep will be per year as well as the depreciation of their value that year. Then how much money you will receive from their produce to be operating at a profit.  Next do the same for the feeder lamb operation . You will do better with this step by sitting down with your father's friend for the best advise for the money expenditure and potential profit in a much shorter  90 to 120 day time frame.


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## Baymule (Sep 29, 2017)

Is this friend going to pay off the loan if it goes busted? I would not get a loan and go into debt on this unless I could afford to pile up the money and set fire to it.


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## Baymule (Sep 29, 2017)

If this is such a great idea, why isn't "friend" already doing it? Or how many lamb feed lots has he ran himself? It's mighty easy to spend somebody else's money or sucker them into going in debt.


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## CntryBoy777 (Sep 29, 2017)

I never take advice from another that's not willing to put some "Skin" into the game....if it is my $$, my risk, and my work on my property....then I'll be danged if I am going to share Any profit with another that just thought it a good idea. Also, if that is the route with a bunch of new sheep....I certainly wouldn't be putting the existing herd in that situation.....I'd have to pass on that....or get a small "Test" group to just see if there was an inkling of merit to that idea, but I sure wouldn't get rooked into doing all the work....I can promise ya that.


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## Sheepshape (Sep 30, 2017)

Why isn't your dad's 'friend' taking out the loan?


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## newton the goat (Sep 30, 2017)

My dads friend raises steers he gets from auction and sells them for beef once.they are fully grown. My dad has been talking to him about how to make money pff our herd eventually, but his friend doubts we will bw able to get anything and has given us the feed lot plan. Honestly i dont want my dad to take out the loan because 1) how the hell are we- a small hobby farm operation- gonna pull this off 2) how will we afford the feed 3) where do we get the lambs? and so on and so forth. I keep going over the idea constantly in my head and i just cant find myself "liking " the idea. Hes asked me to think it over but as you guys have been saying, i just dont like the idea! Im afraid of the whole thing getting messed up by losing stock or even not being able to sell the animals and getting stuck with a boat load of debt!


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## CntryBoy777 (Sep 30, 2017)

A couple of other things crossed my mind since last night too...with the winter weather up there, there would be a bunch of water hauling.....and what would happen if ya had water next spring, like ya had this past spring? If memory serves me correctly it was difficult to handle just the few ya have.....of course that was before the expansion of the fence and pasture, but was all of that under water too? That would be a ton of work in severely cold temps and irregardless of the weather, the animals would have to be tended to.....just some things to think about.


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## Bossroo (Sep 30, 2017)

As you know nothing in life is guaranteed.  Farming is one of the most physical  dangerous ventures according to OSHIA.  As you know raising livestock is a risky financial  business, but  nothing ventured, nothing gained.  You currently have 7 ewes and hope for more in a couple months.  In the real world, over half of the lamb crop will not be at slaughter weight, so have to be either sold to a feeder or kept back and fed out untill they reach slaughter weight .  So, why don't you dip your toe in the feed lot venture with your own lambs and all the while keep impecable true costs including your labor costs  of keeping your ewe flock, then add in all of the entire true costs of running your private feed lot and see if you make a profit or loss on eather or both .  ( Econ 101) Keep in mind that that is for that year only due to your learning curve, availability of facilities,  feed, bedding and labor costs,  weather, and market forces. See if you can make a deal ahead of time with a slaughter house or meat market to buy your fed out lambs when ready, make early sales to private individuals, or take your chances at the auction yard.   You will have to make educated adjustments based on your records  on an annual basis in order to make a profit or go in a different direction.


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## babsbag (Sep 30, 2017)

@Bossroo gave you great advice...


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## Baymule (Sep 30, 2017)

Are the sheep you have now profitable or do you operate at a loss. I sell my lambs for $8 a pound hanging weight , plus $90 for cut and wrap. I lost 2 lambs and had to put down a ewe-dead loss. I have 3 wethers to sell, 2 are sold and one is up for grabs. I will have a loss this year. I had a loss last year. 

If your Dad is hell bent on this, buy maybe 10 lambs and feed them out for spring. You will need to be a good book keeper to make a profit/loss statement and include EVERYTHING. What are you paid working on a dairy. Keep up with hours devoted to the lamb feeding operation. Include that as an expense. Tell your Dad to get his feet wet and see how it goes.


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## newton the goat (Oct 1, 2017)

Baymule said:


> Are the sheep you have now profitable or do you operate at a loss. I sell my lambs for $8 a pound hanging weight , plus $90 for cut and wrap. I lost 2 lambs and had to put down a ewe-dead loss. I have 3 wethers to sell, 2 are sold and one is up for grabs. I will have a loss this year. I had a loss last year.
> 
> If your Dad is hell bent on this, buy maybe 10 lambs and feed them out for spring. You will need to be a good book keeper to make a profit/loss statement and include EVERYTHING. What are you paid working on a dairy. Keep up with hours devoted to the lamb feeding operation. Include that as an expense. Tell your Dad to get his feet wet and see how it goes.


I think he is honestly thinking of doing this..... urgh this is going to he an interesting winter.... guess im dragging out an old wprk book to keep track of all expenses spent


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## southernshoreboy (Oct 4, 2017)

You have received some good advice so far. Bossroo and baymule advice of starting small and keeping records are the way to go.  I would look for a nice dorper ram if you want to utilize your Katahdins and still stick with hair sheep. If your dad decides to buy lambs to fatten for spring they will more then likely be a wool breed like a suffolk, Charollais, dorset cross etc and that is a departure from where you are now.  Not that that's an issue, farming is always about adapting. Try not to turn the enjoyment from a small flock into a job.  Goodluck


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## Bossroo (Oct 4, 2017)

Just to clarify... Charolais is a beef cattle breed.  The others will apply, however most of the wool x bred lambs would be most likely be x bred with a Suffolk and will have speckled faces which are pretty good candidates for a feed lot but will take more feed to reach slaughter weights while the  pure bred Suffolk, Southdown, or Dorset lambs would finish at less cost.   The Dorper ram over your Katahdin ewes would be your best choice to produce a lamb that would take the least resources in terms of feed, time and labor to be most profitable.


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## southernshoreboy (Oct 4, 2017)

Hi Bossroo you are right Charolais is a beef cattle breed but mine had 2 L's in it, "Charollais" which makes it a sheep breed - I had to google the spelling, not my strong suit LOL. I don't carry them personally but have seen them and read about their traits - some believe they are a better all round terminal breed then the suffolk.  "Newton the goat" is from Ontario and they seem to have a good selection of registered breeders in that part of the country. Not sure if Charollais sheep have made it down to the United States yet.


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## Bossroo (Oct 4, 2017)

Southernshoreboy, after googling for the Charollais, you are indeed right  !  I learned something new today as i have never heard of this breed of sheep before even after  having been in the commercial  sheep business for  30 years. Google describes the adult sheep, but  they say nothing as to market forces as to sale prices compared to other breed lambs, percentage of lambs that reach slaughter weight and at what age straight from being weaned without the benefit of a feedlot,age and weight  of lamb for slaughter after being in a feed lot, grades of carcass, slaugher carcass weight percentage from live weight, carcass quality , cutout percentages or competition taste tests of the lamb carcass. Can you enlighten us ?


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## southernshoreboy (Oct 4, 2017)

Wow thats alot of questions. I first saw Charollais at an auction a couple of years ago and they brought top dollar. Very impressive ram lambs - solid. Here are a few links
With everything you read on the internet or studies you have to take it with a grain of sodium. 

http://en.france-genetique-elevage.org/Charollais,386.html
http://www.agriculture.gov.sk.ca/apps/adf/ADFAdminReport/20050709.pdf 
http://www.sksheep.com/documents/SSDBBBL1UsingTerminalSiresScreen.pdf
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/sheep/71239000/charollais-sheep-seen-as-breed-of-the-future
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/sheep/facts/12-021.htm
http://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/next-generation/ambassador-blogs/2937/case-study-james-hamilton/
http://www.charollaissheep.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Gareth-Thomas-Story.pdf

I don't have any Charollais but I have two rams a suffolk cross and a horned dorset/southdown cross and my wife has a bluefaced leicester and a shetland ram - boy is he a pain in the behind this time of the year.


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## newton the goat (Oct 5, 2017)

Thank you for so much information! Ill do some more reasearch and then let my dad know!


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## southernshoreboy (Oct 5, 2017)

Goodluck to you and your dad. I wasn't pushing Charllois Sheep, hard to beat a lamb sired by a good suffolk and good crossed ewes.


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## Bruce (Oct 6, 2017)

Definitely figure out if there IS a spring market, what those people are looking for and what they are willing to pay. Nothing positive about trying to sell something no one wants to buy.

I agree with the economic advice. You NEED to know what it is going to cost BEFORE taking out a loan. That is best done with your current flock as mentioned. Put off the "winter feedlot" thing until next year so you can (if it looks reasonable) go in with a decent idea of how much money you can make. Work up what a loan would cost as if your current flock were purchased under the "winter feedlot" plan. The interest you would pay has to be added into your current flock's "cost" to get a complete financial picture. I'm not sure how you come up with equivalent feed costs though since a quantity of lambs won't eat the same amount per animal as your adults. Perhaps there is someone around who does "winter feedlot" lambs that can help with that.

Don't forget to pay yourself on paper for the work needed, including the time spent on paperwork! If it is a ton of work and you make little, you have to really love it because you can make more money working 40 hours a week for someone else.


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