# Herding Dogs



## Beekissed

Can't believe we don't have a herding dog section on BYHs!   Anyhoo....in the market for a herding dog so I can eventually have help moving these sheep around and I think I found one.  Will go look at him on Wed. evening.   Anyone familiar with the Hangin' Tree Cowdog breed?   I didn't even know they existed but have been doing some research and reading up this evening.  This pup is half HTC/half BC and all beautiful.  

Can't wait to have an all-purpose farm dog on hand, just as a companion, work partner and critter gitter.  I miss my old Jake, who had to be put down due to pain from old age issues.  I'm hoping this pup will fill his shoes nicely.   









						What is a Hangin Tree Cowdog - Dagley Ranch News
					

Are you wondering what a hangin tree cowdog is? Learn about the hangin tree cowdog breed, and what the different kinds are.



					dagleyranch.com


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## thistlebloom

Wow, what a beautiful pup! I have heard of HTC dogs. Sounds like a good registry with quality control. Looking forward to hearing more about this pup!


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## Mini Horses

He's sure pretty, no matter his breed   I absolutely LOVE to watch herders work a flock.   Of course, many so intense they will herd the pine cones! -- anything and everything.   This one, from the read, seems to have a little more work ethic in other respects.

I was looking on web last night for a "general farm dog".    I'm looking harder at the Great Swiss.   Nothing at all decided yet!    I like the Bernese Mtn but a short life span.   Great Swiss have similar appearances, shorter hair, larger size and some qualities I think are more to my fit.    It's not anything I'm rushing into.


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## thistlebloom

Mini Horses said:


> I was looking on web last night for a "general farm dog".    I'm looking harder at the Great Swiss.   Nothing at all decided yet!    I like the Bernese Mtn but a short life span.   Great Swiss have similar appearances, shorter hair, larger size and some qualities I think are more to my fit.    It's not anything I'm rushing into.


I have a female BMD and she is an excellent farm dog, no herding instincts, but a good watcher. Very sweet and loving. If she has a fault it's that she gloms on to you and pants like a steam engine. Very loyal, but the heavy panting, especially in your face on a hot day, makes me send her away to lay down elsewhere. This makes her feel bad, poor thing.
I like the Swissy's shorter coat, and they are an attractive dog.


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## Jesusfreak101

Ooo okay I will deffiently be interested in this one. Stella needs a buddy. Our goat panda has hurt her confidence. Panda will go after her of she in a 10-20 feet of panda personal space. I have to hold panda to get her to work and little lady has also be come somewhat of a handful as soon as it cools we going to be working stella harder to get her back up to par. I hope he works out and I be looking for one around here. I had thought o get a healer.


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## Wild Bug Ranch

I need help training my pup Luna into herding my goats
 If anyone can help me that would be great!


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## Jesusfreak101

Goat are harder for them to herd. They tend to be more willing to head butt. If you have a more aggressive herd member remove them during training. When she starts out use the more docile herd member to train her to build her confidence. My first goats were more docile then my current herd queen. Stella is only a year old and she can handle the cows better then the goats. She will have to be more aggressive when handling the goats because of their personalities. Work on your command first for a while using toys and other critters first. Stella will even herd the chickens, water fowl plus hold them for me. But like I said that one goat scares her and I have to hold that goat while she works the rest.


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## frustratedearthmother

Can't beat a good English Shepherd for an all around farm dog/herder/varmint eradicator and frisbee champ!


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## Wild Bug Ranch

Jesusfreak101 said:


> Goat are harder for them to herd. They tend to be more willing to head butt. If you have a more aggressive herd member remove them during training. When she starts out use the more docile herd member to train her to build her confidence. My first goats were more docile then my current herd queen. Stella is only a year old and she can handle the cows better then the goats. She will have to be more aggressive when handling the goats because of their personalities. Work on your command first for a while using toys and other critters first. Stella will even herd the chickens, water fowl plus hold them for me. But like I said that one goat scares her and I have to hold that goat while she works the rest.


Yeah my one year old doe Dixie is super mean to Luna and Luna is so scared but will sometimes snap at Dixie


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## Beekissed

Jesusfreak101 said:


> Ooo okay I will deffiently be interested in this one. Stella needs a buddy. Our goat panda has hurt her confidence. Panda will go after her of she in a 10-20 feet of panda personal space. I have to hold panda to get her to work and little lady has also be come somewhat of a handful as soon as it cools we going to be working stella harder to get her back up to par. I hope he works out and I be looking for one around here. I had thought o get a healer.



They have a page on FB where you can find folks selling pups and adult dogs and even some offered from rescues.  I just joined that group hoping to gain some insight into the breed.  It does sound like the all round farm dog type of breed I've been needing since Jake died...but with a perk.   The herding instinct.  

Now, I've been training dogs for years to not chase the chickens, so this will be difficult to find a place wherein the pup can't herd the chickens but he can herd sheep...but only when I say so.   Will be doing a LOT of studying up on how to accomplish that before he gets old enough to get into some bad habits.  I don't want to sour his taste for herding either, so much learning to be done on my part.


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## Jesusfreak101

Lol it's tiny you say that bee i have stella trained to herd my chicken ducks and geese in. I also have her trainer to grab and hold a bird for me. We used that this evening. One rooster took a liking to my duck hens he now in the grow out pen. She chased him and finally caught him after 10 minutes lol he could fly and escape her. It's getting her also on the right bird but most of the time a quick correction on which bird is all i need. The bird are out with her almost none stop now days along with the goats, pigs and calf. The only ones she likes to eat are my rabbits. But can't blame her to much.


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## Beekissed

Jesusfreak101 said:


> Lol it's tiny you say that bee i have stella trained to herd my chicken ducks and geese in. I also have her trainer to grab and hold a bird for me. We used that this evening. One rooster took a liking to my duck hens he now in the grow out pen. She chased him and finally caught him after 10 minutes lol he could fly and escape her. It's getting her also on the right bird but most of the time a quick correction on which bird is all i need. The bird are out with her almost none stop now days along with the goats, pigs and calf. The only ones she likes to eat are my rabbits. But can't blame her to much.



How did you accomplish that without letting her go further into harming them?  I have free range chickens here so they don't need penned up at night but it would be kind of cool to direct the ducks into the garden when I want them there or run chickens OUT of the garden when I don't want them there, but without carnage when I'm not around...how do you train him to herd the chickens on command but not do so when he's not supposed to?


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## Jesusfreak101

It's mostly maturity as well as constant working with her on it. She also goes hunting with dh so we have her trainer to find the downed birds. Which helped with the hold technic. Just like training with the goats or other lice stock i correct her for incorrect behavior. When she was younger she did kill a few chickens, a goose, and I believe a duck  or two. I would deal with her harshly when she killed any animal. She would get hit with the bird and chased. She allowed to herd them or snap if they stealing her feed but that's it. When she was younger she couldn't be alone with them period. She now better about it i do catch her herding them when i am inside back to their yard but she hasnt killed any recently. I have to watch her during the first cold snap when she gets frisky from the relief from the heat. You mostly just have to keep up the work with them on it and draw that line they know not to cross. She keeps the birds out of my garden or chases them out for me when i ask. Her biggest issue is the hold technic sometimes she gets overly mouthy and other times she does great and just stands over them and the hens will sit and stay there but the roosters she has to be mouthy with they won't just sit there. When we go to get a certian bird like yesterday I had to correct her multible times for going after the wrong bird but once she went for the right bird I praised her and kept telling her to get him and hold him. Once I walked over grabbed him  she was told thats enough and good girl. She got two eggs for a reward. Mostly it's just correcting and rewarding that worked for her. I use the same commands for herding the birds as i use for the other live stock. She isn't a very determined dog like the hang tree she has a point when she says she done. Mostly when it comes to panda but i can blame her panda goes for blood when she head butts.


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## Blue Sky

This guy has begun to show herding instincts at 16 months. Popular theory is that he’s part Catahoula. Definitely not LGD material but a nice watchdog and all round chore pal. Check out his spotted skin but plain coat 😄


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## Beekissed

Blue Sky said:


> View attachment 76246This guy has begun to show herding instincts at 16 months. Popular theory is that he’s part Catahoula. Definitely not LGD material but a nice watchdog and all round chore pal. Check out his spotted skin but plain coat 😄



That's cool!  Could be he has a little HTC in him, as Catahoula is one of the mixes there.  He's very pretty!  

Got the pup today and will post pics soon as I can.   He's a pretty little thing and a very cool customer...not a single whine from him the whole trip home.   He played with a water bottle, wandered around the car a little but then settled down for a nap between our seats for the rest of the ride home.  He had a last suck from Mama right before we loaded him up, as if to say, "Good-bye, love ya, will sure miss you, Mom!"  

Got to see the parents and both are beautiful.  Mom is a red HTC from Missouri and she's definitely of that breed....intelligent, focused and pure poetry in motion.   The dad is a blue merle BC from imported lines...he was watching the sheep the whole time we were there and never once came to meet the strangers.  Didn't even acknowledge our existence as he was too focused on the sheep.


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## Beekissed

A few pics of the new herding pup...we've named him Dooley Darling.  Today was encouraging when he started to hone in on a little duckling but stopped and sat down when given a verbal correction.  He has not had official training on the birds yet...I'm trying things a little differently with this one as I don't want to hinder his herding instincts but want to direct it so he doesn't herd the birds on his own. 

He also started to herd a hen, as he got going a little faster I gave a verbal correction and he sat down.  Good response.  I don't mind if he gently moves the birds, but to actively chase one is not going to be encouraged at this time. 

These pics show his coloring, which shows the blue merle from his father but also some of the patterns one sees in the catahoula dogs in the mother's genetics.  When not herding, he'll be working as protection for the bird flock and general farm help.  He's scrappy and confident, while still being smart enough to be cautious in new situations...I like the potential of all of that. 

His first herding effort...











With his buddy, Ruffles, the cat...













He's the first dog I've ever had that will cock his head when I'm talking to him...as if he's trying to figure out the language.  It's kind of cute.


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## HomesteaderWife

I've heard of the breed - I am excited to hear about your experiences! What a beautiful baby


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## Jesusfreak101

He is so handsome. I looked up some videos and showed dh them in action i love how confident they are. Shells could use that. She likes to work but she also go do her own thing there are times she doesnt want to herd probably the lab in her. Oh well most of the time she herds for me. I was looking for breeder near me so far all are in North Texas. So for now i have to stock you 😁 which i do anyways so there that.


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## thistlebloom

He's so good looking!Sounds like a keeper.


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## Beekissed

So far I'm pretty pleased with the temperament and intelligence of this pup.   If he never turns on to herding, he will make a great chicken dog and all around farm companion.   But, I think he will likely be a herding dog....his parents had too much of it not to pass it on.   

So far he's easy to correct, fearless and confident, and has a happy little nature that you can't help smile over....I like a dog like that.   He's tuned in, if that makes any sense....he listens to everything we say, cocking his little head as we speak and he actually listens, which is rare in a pup that small.  

The LGDs are intrigued by him....Blue wants to gently play with him and I love seeing the "blue" dogs together.   Looks comical!   Charlie was instantly aggressive and didn't like him at all....had to correct her twice and I have a feeling she will have to be corrected much more severely when he's old enough to go with me on the chores around the sheep.   In a fight, she could really injure him, even as young as she is....she's not smart enough to pull her punches even during play time, so it's likely she wouldn't when attacking this dog.  Of course, being a young puppy, he is blithely unaware of her hostility and just wanted to sniff her and play with her...she was not amused.  

Started training him on the feeding ritual yesterday and he caught on pretty quickly.


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## Blue Sky

I worked my tricolored sofa hound with a small group of ewes. He definitely could move them then back off. He also successfully stopped them three times. We’re not dog trial material but if he can push and hold them it’s a huge help.


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## Beekissed

Blue Sky said:


> View attachment 76450         I worked my tricolored sofa hound with a small group of ewes. He definitely could move them then back off. He also successfully stopped them three times. We’re not dog trial material but if he can push and hold them it’s a huge help.



He's pretty!  What breed mix is he?    I don't think we'll ever be dog trial material here but if he can make the sheep go where they don't want to go I'm going to call Dooley a winner in my book.   He's already proving useful in keeping the chickens out of the carport and from stealing the cat's food....and he's just tiny!


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## Blue Sky

My guess is Catahoula and something white. There is an uncut Catahoula boy in the neighborhood so ?  No LGD instincts but still a good doggo.


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## Ridgetop

Cow dogs are harder on sheep sometimes than traditional sheep dogs.  Reading about the HTC dogs and their testing on biting heels and noses in cattle seems to show a strong herding reaction which would be really good with cattle that are pretty hard headed.  Be careful that Dooly isn't too hard on your sheep, particularly the pregnant ewes and lambs.  

Mike and Theresa have herding dogs, and High Desert Cowboy also has a couple herding dogs that he raised and trained from pups.


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## Beekissed

Ridgetop said:


> Cow dogs are harder on sheep sometimes than traditional sheep dogs.  Reading about the HTC dogs and their testing on biting heels and noses in cattle seems to show a strong herding reaction which would be really good with cattle that are pretty hard headed.  Be careful that Dooly isn't too hard on your sheep, particularly the pregnant ewes and lambs.
> 
> Mike and Theresa have herding dogs, and High Desert Cowboy also has a couple herding dogs that he raised and trained from pups.



Yeah...I saw that and didn't really like the vids they posted of such behavior towards sheep on their FB site.   But, they seem to encourage such rough behavior, calling it "gritty".  I call it abuse.   I'd never let Dooley behave in that manner and thus far he seems very mild and laid back, easy to correct on any rough play or misbehavior.   

I just don't find it necessary to move sheep with that much force.   Since he has BC in his parentage, I'm guessing he'll have more of that kind of style and I'll encourage that also.   I like calm stock and I'll be expecting my dog to keep them that way when he moves them.  

I like this lady's style and how calm those sheep are as the dog moves them here and yon...that's what I'll be shooting for.   Easy, quiet moves.   I think it takes much more skill overall to move stock by intimidation and speed than it does by physical force.


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## Mike CHS

That is a good video and she works pretty close to the way we use our dogs.   I never allow teeth on the sheep but it's in their training on cows.  I don't let our dogs do what their abilities would let them do since I would rather the sheep will go with me as the dog is lightly pushing them.  We only drive so we never do an out run which is really where these dogs excel.

edit to ad that they are more than capable of an out run since trials are what they were originally trained for but they work now more for their confidence than our need.


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## Beekissed

Mike CHS said:


> That is a good video and she works pretty close to the way we use our dogs.   I never allow teeth on the sheep but it's in their training on cows.  I don't let our dogs do what their abilities would let them do since I would rather the sheep will go with me as the dog is lightly pushing them.  We only drive so we never do an out run which is really where these dogs excel.
> 
> edit to ad that they are more than capable of an out run since trials are what they were originally trained for but they work now more for their confidence than our need.



Mike, what kind of dogs do you have?  Got a pic or vid of them working?  Did you train them yourself?  If so, got any good tips on how to start a pup on basic herding moves with a long line?  I'd like to try a few moves with Dooley on chickens, just to get him started and give him confidence, as well as direction, on  moving stock.


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## Mike CHS

We have an Aussie and a Border Collie but no videos.  We got the dogs long before we even thought about getting sheep with the idea that we  wanted to do trials.  We trained at a farm in upstate South Carolina originally (Bright Lake Farm).  I'll look and see if they have any videos up but they are good friends now also.  We were started just as you are now with a long line and working on basic commands, working in a fairly small rectangular pen then graduating to a larger round pen.  There is no way to offer a lot of advice in this format but if you work on controlling your dog, that is half of the battle.  You have to be able to get it to stop when you command or it's a waste of time. The "lie down"  command needs to be responded to no matter what else the dog is doing.  The guiding commands will follow fairly easy once you can always get the dog to stop.


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## Ridgetop

Mike CHS said:


> That is a good video and she works pretty close to the way we use our dogs. I never allow teeth on the sheep but it's in their training on cows. I don't let our dogs do what their abilities would let them do since I would rather the sheep will go with me as the dog is lightly pushing them. We only drive so we never do an out run which is really where these dogs excel.



Sheep dogs and cattle dogs have to work a little differently.  For cattle the dogs do need ""grit" since the cows are larger, tougher, and will charge the dogs on occasion.  Cattlemen move their cattle faster and need dogs that are tougher on the cattle.

Herding dog breeds originated to bring sheep down from the steep hill country of their native lands as well as assist in driving them to other locations.  Guardian dogs protect the sheep when on the move to new pastures  and while grazing, the herding dogs keep the strays moving when taking the sheep to new grazing or driving them back home.  Gradually shepherds found that they could direct their dogs to do more and more tasks. Instead of 10 or 12 men with a flock, 2 men or boys and several good dogs were all that were needed.  Using dogs for both protection and herding provided more profitability to shepherds.  No matter how far back you go in history, it is all about profit.  

Shepherds move their sheep more quietly and want their dogs to be more gentle on the sheep.  If you watch well trained dogs, they never nip pregnant ewes or lambs, but with unruly wethers they might use more force.  A good sheep dog differentiates the type of force needed.

While cattlemen were slower to acknowledge the benefit of a good herding dog, the loss of the itinerant cowboy around the turn of the century brought a greater appreciation of the cattle dog herder.  However, because cattle don't react to dogs like sheep these cattle dogs had to be tougher and more inclined to bite the cattle when moving them.  Charging cattle have been stopped by dogs charging and grabbing the steer or cow by the nose and bowling them over.  Cattle dogs are tough and have to be.  

Different behaviors for different jobs.  Different dogs for different species.  All good.


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## Beekissed

Mike CHS said:


> We have an Aussie and a Border Collie but no videos.  We got the dogs long before we even thought about getting sheep with the idea that we  wanted to do trials.  We trained at a farm in upstate South Carolina originally (Bright Lake Farm).  I'll look and see if they have any videos up but they are good friends now also.  We were started just as you are now with a long line and working on basic commands, working in a fairly small rectangular pen then graduating to a larger round pen.  There is no way to offer a lot of advice in this format but if you work on controlling your dog, that is half of the battle.  You have to be able to get it to stop when you command or it's a waste of time. The "lie down"  command needs to be responded to no matter what else the dog is doing.  The guiding commands will follow fairly easy once you can always get the dog to stop.



That's a toughy....how do you get them to do "lie down" when they are that far away from you?   I can get a lie down when there is food to be waited upon and maybe a brief lie down if they are annoying me, but to get a solid lie down and then get them to do it from a distance?  Haven't figured out how they do that one and no one is showing it on vids, either.   

Took 3 days to teach this pup to sit down at a distance when I sit his food bowl down and stay there until I release him to eat, with just minimal instruction, so I have high hopes for him on learning new concepts....it's just ME that needs the training.    

Mike, what age did you start training your pups in the round pen and on the long line?


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## Mike CHS

I introduced them to sheep starting at around 6 months but this was in a small round pen with the dog outside and the human in the pen with the sheep.  You keep the sheep moving in the pen so the dog has to constantly change direction to stay on them.  As they stop to change direction, you just say the command for the direction they are turning to. That's where they start to get the idea about the Away and Go By commands for direction.  You keep the sessions short and stop as soon as they don't do what they are told.  You have to have the lie down command down before they get on sheep or you will have a bunch of one step forward and two backwards every time.  I originally taught all of my herding dogs the Lie Down command while throwing them a rubber ball.  The Stay command is taught at the same time.  We also lived in a subdivision at the time so their walks was on a lead and they constantly got the sit and stay commands as I changed direction of walking.  One thing that works really fast is to have them on a lead and give the Sit.  Have the lead pulled out toward you and if they don't immediately respond, step on the lead forcing them down.  It doesn't hurt them but they don't like it and will respond immediately after a time or two.  You need them to sit immediately when they are working since it's a fine line between herding and chasing so you have to have control.  I had 100% positive response from them on the sit and stay long before they ever saw a sheep.

The way our paddocks are set up I rarely let the dogs in on the sheep unless I want to separate a ram, but Lance (Border Collie) gets to work every time I let the sheep out of the fence to graze on our driveway lane or the bordering neighbors two acres that isn't fenced.  That doesn't happen often since I obviously have to be with them the whole time they are out of the fence.  He is super aware of what I'm doing and responds to hand signals for directional movement.  I just keep sending him either behind the flock to keep them moving or send him past them to stay ahead of them to keep them contained away from the exit to the road.

I'm not sure how much experience you have but from your posts, I know you have quite a bit.  There are some good videos going from the first day of training to almost ready to work by a senior gentleman (now deceased) in England that I really enjoyed when I was learning.  Those started me but we also had some super mentors for a couple of years that made it easier for us.

I just checked and the videos are on Youtube and a search for Ted Hope Sheep and youtube went right to them.  He had a really easy manner and was easy to listen to plus if you don't need any basics, you can go to a video that is more in line with what you need info on.

Another edit - most people that we know won't work a young dog on open fields until they are over a minimum of a year old which is why they get so much time in the training pens.


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## Beekissed

Mike CHS said:


> I'm not sure how much experience you have but from your posts, I know you have quite a bit. There are some good videos going from the first day of training to almost ready to work by a senior gentleman (now deceased) in England that I really enjoyed when I was learning. Those started me but we also had some super mentors for a couple of years that made it easier for us.
> 
> I just checked and the videos are on Youtube and a search for Ted Hope Sheep and youtube went right to them. He had a really easy manner and was easy to listen to plus if you don't need any basics, you can go to a video that is more in line with what you need info on.
> 
> Another edit - most people that we know won't work a young dog on open fields until they are over a minimum of a year old which is why they get so much time in the training pens



Thank you so much for the reply!! I have ZIP experience with herding dogs and their training, some years of experience with teaching basic obedience and such, though I've never taken it too far....just enough to have control over the dogs in  most situations.   

I'll look up Mr. Hope....I think I may have caught one of his vids already and stored it on my "sheep stuff" vids on YT.   I'll soak up all I can of his.  I won't be able to afford any training or clinics and most are very far away from me, so I'll have to do this very DIY...but I do want to do this well.   

It's going to be hard to keep Dooley away from sheep in our situation, as part of their grazing is right down the middle of our place~the yard~and that's where Dooley will be living and working with the chickens.  He also is starting to follow me on chores....tonight was his first close contact with the sheep.   He was pretty scared of them, as they all were curious and wanted to sniff at him.   I had to call him back to me several times~he was smart enough to exit the fencing when he felt threatened~ and monitor the interaction...I showed him that I protect him from the sheep and that the sheep move when I approach them, hence they also move if he is with me when I approach them.   At first, Blue our Anatolian, went after a sheep that scared Dooley...not hard, but just got after the sheep, bumping him with his body.   I thought that was kind of neat.   Blue is a real nurturer of small animals.  

I'd like to start basic obedience with him soon...have already started some, but he needs a daily work on the leash and on basic commands right now.  I've just been a bit too busy to tend to that this past week.   After he's responding to me well on all things,  I'd like to start some soft herding training on just the chickens and ducks, after I teach him the down, of course.   I think that may give him a little practice and a little confidence, while teaching him the chickens can only be herded while I'm around.   That's going to be tough to teach.  

Thank you so much, Mike, for taking the time to reply and help me!   I really need this to work.  This dog is an investment in some much needed help here and I hope I don't mess him up in my inexperience.  He truly is a very smart, very enjoyable dog to have around....it's been many a long year since I enjoyed a pup so much.  It's pretty unanimous here, everyone is in love with this Dooley dog~he's already showing some very admirable traits.  

He'll be hitting 6 mo. long about the time we separate the sheep into breeding groups, so while we have them in the sorting pens, it would be a good time to let him work a little on the whethers we will be butchering thereafter.   By that time I should have him well established on commands, particularly the down.   I'll study on every vid I can until then and try to practice what I've learned with Dooley on the runner ducks in the garden before then.   If I can get him to work easy and soft on the ducks, it shouldn't be too hard to get him to do some of the same work on the sheep.    I want a dog with a soft, quick style that doesn't enjoy running them too much....with high tensile fencing, we can't risk running them through the fencing every time he works them.


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## Ridgetop

You must train Dooley on basic obedience first.  He should do a long sit and long down at a distance.  That is basic obedience.  My dogs were obedience trained and they would obey the "stop", "sit", and "down" from a long distance with hand signals.  In Open A, B, and Utillity obedience trials the dogs have to work from a distance.  We use hand signals as well as verbal commands.  Field trial dogs hunt and have to be steady on their obedience too before they can hunt birds,  Their handlers often use whistles since the trial dogs can be half a mile away.  The judges are on horseback.  In herding trials shepherds also use whistles in short blasts to give the dogs the commands from far away.

Without complete obedience to your commands you can't start the dog on sheep.  Working sheep will be very exciting for him since he will be "chasing" them.    Excitement can cause young dogs to forget their training.  Just watch young dogs at their first obedience trial!  LOL  Dooley must be completely steady on his obedience and distance commands before trying to use him on sheep.  Don't try to go too fast until his obedience work is steady. You need to be able to call him away from the sheep and put him on a steady sit or down stay. 

When you start working Dooley on the sheep, I suggest you pen your LGD up.  To the LGD the way a herding dog moves sheep looks like a predator and some LGDs will go after the herding dog,  Also, you will have to train the sheep to be herded quietly as well.  Sheep that don't understand herding often scatter when first herded with a dog.  Inexperienced sheep with an inexperienced dog can make for a lot more work for you and a lot of confusion for the young dog.  You don't want that since it can ruin his training.


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## Beekissed

Ridgetop said:


> You must train Dooley on basic obedience first.  He should do a long sit and long down at a distance.  That is basic obedience.  My dogs were obedience trained and they would obey the "stop", "sit", and "down" from a long distance with hand signals.  In Open A, B, and Utillity obedience trials the dogs have to work from a distance.  We use hand signals as well as verbal commands.  Field trial dogs hunt and have to be steady on their obedience too before they can hunt birds,  Their handlers often use whistles since the trial dogs can be half a mile away.  The judges are on horseback.  In herding trials shepherds also use whistles in short blasts to give the dogs the commands from far away.
> 
> Without complete obedience to your commands you can't start the dog on sheep.  Working sheep will be very exciting for him since he will be "chasing" them.    Excitement can cause young dogs to forget their training.  Just watch young dogs at their first obedience trial!  LOL  Dooley must be completely steady on his obedience and distance commands before trying to use him on sheep.  Don't try to go too fast until his obedience work is steady. You need to be able to call him away from the sheep and put him on a steady sit or down stay.
> 
> When you start working Dooley on the sheep, I suggest you pen your LGD up.  To the LGD the way a herding dog moves sheep looks like a predator and some LGDs will go after the herding dog,  Also, you will have to train the sheep to be herded quietly as well.  Sheep that don't understand herding often scatter when first herded with a dog.  Inexperienced sheep with an inexperienced dog can make for a lot more work for you and a lot of confusion for the young dog.  You don't want that since it can ruin his training.



Duly noted....Dooley noted also!     I will definitely work hard on a solid down and stay at a distance....we have 4 mo. to get this right before I introduce him formally to the sheep in a pen situation.   Today he got shocked on the high tensile, so it's not likely he'll be going anywhere near the paddocks  anymore without being on a lead.  

Started him officially on his leash training today....had a few short sessions when he first arrived but haven't gotten back to it.   Didn't take him long to learn the drill but I'll be putting him through his paces as close to daily as I can get.  I'm watching Ted Hope on YT right now and I was right....I HAD watched him before here and there, but will store his whole series of training sessions I can find onto my sheep stuff so I can go over and over them.  

He's good on recall right now but must get better, especially under exciting situations.  I've been using "that'll do" instead of "good boy"....just getting us both used to the lingo.   

Will definitely tie up the LGDs while using Dooley until I can train him/them to also lie down and stay down while we move or work the sheep.  Starting to tie them to the water wagon for moves now anyway, as Blue likes to avoid moving to a new paddock....for some reason these dogs hate to move way more then the sheep do.  

Right now if Dooley were to chase the sheep, the LGDs would likely just join him and have all kinds of fun....they too are still in training.    Had to yell at both of them just this morning....Charlie for chasing the sheep and Blue for letting her.  

My dogs are trained on hand signals but I've never done any of their obedience at a distance...that will be my biggest challenge.   How do you stop them from coming to you over and over unless you get someone else to hold them in place while you walk off?  I've worn myself out several times trying to get dogs to lay down and stay down until I come back to them, but they all run to meet me.   I've watched vids on it but none show how to accomplish this one thing....they always show the dogs already staying down at a distance.  I've tried the short walk off and tried to lengthen that, but past a certain point they always follow me or come to me.   None will chase a ball....just not that kind of dog.  Even this pup has no interest in toys or balls or fetching of any kind.   The only time I've gotten my dogs to lay down and stay down for any length of time was if there was food in the vicinity as a reward...as in their feed bowls.  

Do you incorporate the whistle after they've learned all the verbal and hand signals or along with as you go?  

Sorry for all the questions but I tried asking a few on a herding dog FB page and was treated with much condescension by the few that answered.  Quite the elite group, those trial folks.  Guess I was lucky a few even bothered to answer.


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## Beekissed

Scratch that....just heard Ted say he does the lie down/stop whistle but none of the other commands by whistle until the dog is fully trained on those commands verbally.   Got it.


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## Ridgetop

If your dogs are not solid on the long stay, you may be rushing it.  First, don't worry abut the LGDs doing any of this since they are not genetically geared to it.  Just tie them up or kennel them during the obedience lessons and later while working Dooley on sheep.  We use a large chain link kennel run to lock up our LGDs when strangers are on the property.  They are used to staying where we put them now, and we have switched over to putting them in the barn pen with the ewes and lambs.   The pen fences in the barn are only 3'-4' high but the LGDs stay just fine because they have been trained to it and are with some of the sheep.

I recommend everyone with dogs teach them to be either kenneled, crated, or penned in some way since one day it will be necessary to do it and you want them to know that being penned or crated is ok.  I would start Dooley on some crate training too.  

When teaching the long stay, use a 20 foot line like you use on the recall.  Be strict when returning him to the exact position he was in when he broke the stay.  You have to be consistent and ALWAYS end the lessons when he is successful, not when he breaks and you want to give up.  Success comes day by day, and week by week.  You can't rush this part of his training.  Once he masters staying in one spot, move farther away just by inches since you need to be close enough to correct him with a voice command if he starts to break.  Do *NOT* rush this step since the dog's entire future training depends on it,  Most "obedience trained" dogs are trained just enough to make living them as a family dog bearable.  A properly trained obedience dog (which is what a sheep dog is only with more training) should heel off leash, stay for long periods of time while you are out of sight, come on command instantly, and drop to a down or sit signal in the middle of the field.  This requires lots of time training the dog.  Without the time spent on this training you will not have the sheep herding tool you want.  And remember that a herding dog is a* tool *to lessen your workload just like your chutes, scale, tractor, LGD, etc.  Without that intensive training, you wilI have an unreliable farm dog that can scatter the sheep as fast as he can gather them.  I used to train my obedience dogs a solid hour every day, usually often more.  Our Aussie was properly obedience trained, but never became a great herding dog because I did not put in the same amount of work on her herding training as I did on her obedience.

The basics are the key.  You can't become a great mathematician without basic arithmetic, or a great author without basic spelling and grammar.  Absolute obedience is the basis before herding or any other specialized skills can be taught.  Don't skimp due to "lack of time".  Turning Dooley into a good sheep herder will require great dedication and work.  Eventually I would like to have a herding dog, but I know my physical and age limitations now will not allow me to put in the time required so I will buy a finished herding dog.

I applaud your desire to train this dog yourself.  Concentrate on the obedience work first, and you will see great success.


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## Mike CHS

The farm owners where we first started training our dogs are super nice people but no-nonsense when it came to the working dogs.  More than a few times I saw them take a look at how dogs behaved when they were introduced to sheep and then tell the dog owners that they need to have the dog "ready' to train before they came back again.  She got paid for each dog that was there but she wouldn't waste the time if a dog wasn't ready to start and that meant a solid down and stay at a minimum.  Add to that a dog that can't be controlled can do a lot of damage to sheep in their excitement and she wouldn't tolerate that.  They didn't make a lot of $ but they loved training the folks to train their dogs.


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## Blue Sky

So much good information. A new gate latch allowed our herding novice unlimited access to the flock. Nothing bad happened. He doesn’t know what to do but stops when I need him to. He chased chickens with a closed mouth no grabbing. A start? Yep but not with a thorough bred so results may vary.


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## Baymule

Bee, what a nice puppy. I know you will give him your all, your very best. If anybody can do this, it is you. I will be following along on this journey. I have nothing to add as I have no experience with herding dogs, but I will applaud your efforts. Dooley will become a great dog under your training. 

I have never heard of a Hanging Tree Cowdog, it was interesting reading about them. Truly a utility breed.


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## Baymule

Jesusfreak101 said:


> Ooo okay I will deffiently be interested in this one. Stella needs a buddy. Our goat panda has hurt her confidence. Panda will go after her of she in a 10-20 feet of panda personal space. I have to hold panda to get her to work and little lady has also be come somewhat of a handful as soon as it cools we going to be working stella harder to get her back up to par. I hope he works out and I be looking for one around here. I had thought o get a healer.



Have you considered a Texas Blue Lacy?





__





						Blue Lacy | National Kennel Club
					

(Blue Lacy Game Dog) (Texas Blue Lacy Game Dog) This is Fred, owned by Walter & Iva Barbee. He is the "red" or "yellow" version of the breed. Description The




					www.nationalkennelclub.com
				












						Blue Lacy - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> Bee, what a nice puppy. I know you will give him your all, your very best. If anybody can do this, it is you. I will be following along on this journey. I have nothing to add as I have no experience with herding dogs, but I will applaud your efforts. Dooley will become a great dog under your training.
> 
> I have never heard of a Hanging Tree Cowdog, it was interesting reading about them. Truly a utility breed.



Bay, of all the little puppies I've raised thus far, this one seems to have stolen my heart more.  I don't know why.  He's so easy going, but still spritely and puppyish as can be.  He actually listens when I talk, cocks his little head and watches my face.  He's quick to learn and doesn't get his feelings hurt over corrections.  I smile every time I see him, he's just that engaging.  

I don't know if I can do this kind of training but I'm excited to learn and also excited about Dooley's potential.   He's not turned on, as they say, too much but he's definitely got the instinct...that's something I can work with.   Not sure if I could train him if he was like his father....his father was clearly obsessed with the sheep and was busy herding them from outside the fence while we were there.   His eyes never left the sheep, even with strangers on the land.   

His favorite thing to herd right now is the cat, which he does a fair job of until the cat runs up a tree.  He'll swing wide around the cat and then lie down in front of him, waiting for the cat's next move.  The cat will run around him and Dooley will swing wide and try to cut him off.   It's funny to watch and they both seem to be having fun.  I say, if you can herd cats, you can herd anything!


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## Beekissed

He went for his first real walk on the leash this morning.  Wore his little butt out, which he's been needing.  He's growing quickly and getting rambunctious, so needs daily structured work and exercise.  Today is the start of Dooley's education...and mine!  

He's real good on sitting and staying until I tell him he can eat and these past few days we've transitioned to lying down and waiting for food and he did it automatically this morning.  Quickest pup yet to learn that concept without an older dog to show him the way.


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## Mike CHS

That obsession that you mentioned is the main reason these dogs do what they do.    This is another case that I wish I had taken pictures.  At dog trials all of the owners have their dogs with them and mostly sit at the fence line to watch the trials.  All of the dogs sit at the fence, not moving a muscle and just staring at the sheep and waiting their turn.  Be patient and use his instinct without pushing too fast.


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## Beekissed

Mike CHS said:


> That obsession that you mentioned is the main reason these dogs do what they do.    This is another case that I wish I had taken pictures.  At dog trials all of the owners have their dogs with them and mostly sit at the fence line to watch the trials.  All of the dogs sit at the fence, not moving a muscle and just staring at the sheep and waiting their turn.  Be patient and use his instinct without pushing too fast.



Will do!  Right now I'm concentrating on obedience and just general socialization.  He's smart enough to boot scoot out of the fence when the sheep show up to investigate him.   This morning was the first time he barked at them, but I couldn't blame him...they all crowded up by the gate to see him and it was just a wall of sheep.  He put that butt up in the air, head down and gave them a few intimidating puppy barks.   It was pretty funny.  Real bold from the other side of the gate.    

Right now, when he tries to herd the cat or chickens, I just add words to his actions~"come by" or "away to me" when he swings in those directions.  When he lies down after a swing, I tell him "lie down" and then "that'll do" when he comes to me.  Just trying to get him used to those phrases.  When we walk on the leash, instead of "let's go" that I used for the other dogs, I tell him, "Walk up".   

It's a whole new learning curve for me to train in this way or to even let a puppy chase a chicken....for all the other dogs that was extremely forbidden.  I'm trying to let him herd, but not chase, if that makes any sense.   He can "herd" when he's with me and the chickens are moving in front of us to the coop, but when they reach the coop, he has to sit down and stop herding.  So far he has a good on and off switch in these casual scenarios, but he's just little right now, just barely 2 mo. old.   I expect he'll be more intense as he grows, so trying to get a little control in there early.


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## Ridgetop

Years ago I decided to buy a herding dog - Border Collie - but a sheep friend who trained them (she has since become a herding trial judge and moved across country) told me not to get one.  She said that the best ones would do just what you describe this pup's daddy doing - herding the sheep themselves without being told to do so.  They are compulsive herders.  She said that in our situation we did not have enough land or sheep to provide enough work for the dog.  We mostly had dairy goats, and our sheep were trained to come in at night and go out in the morning.  They were 4-H sheep, al halter trained by the children.  In our situation, the dog would just move the sheep back and forth all day.  She had seen situations where the owners of a good herding dogs were concerned that their sheep were losing weight.  They discovered that it was because their dog was working the sheep all day long while they were at work.  The sheep never had a chance to graze!!!  She told us we would have to keep the dog kenneled except when working because we didn't have enough work for it to do.  Since we didn't want a perpetually depressed dog, we passed on the Border Collie idea.  We did get an Aussie from working lines and she was a joy to train.  When we move, we will need a good herding dog, so I will be watching your adventure with Dooley with interest.


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## Mike CHS

Border Collies are actually pretty laid back depending on how they are raised and our BC and the female Aussie have lived in the house for 5 years with no issues.  We know dozens of people that have them and all except for a couple also have them as both working dogs and house dogs.  Our Aussie has had as much training as the BC but the BC intensity is what lets them go from not working to 100%.  I can' imagine letting either type have access to sheep without supervision though.


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## Ridgetop

Agreed.  That is why we won't have either one until we move.  On this steep area while it would be a dream to just send the dog to bring in the sheep, we can get by without them at this time.  Later, with more property and more sheep, we will need them.  Then I will start shopping.  My friend had super intense competition dogs and worked them everyday so maybe she felt that with all we had on hand with our kids and 4-H activities we didn't need a herding dog.  Most of our animals were trained by 4-H children too.  LOL


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## Beekissed

Ridgetop said:


> Years ago I decided to buy a herding dog - Border Collie - but a sheep friend who trained them (she has since become a herding trial judge and moved across country) told me not to get one.  She said that the best ones would do just what you describe this pup's daddy doing - herding the sheep themselves without being told to do so.  They are compulsive herders.  She said that in our situation we did not have enough land or sheep to provide enough work for the dog.  We mostly had dairy goats, and our sheep were trained to come in at night and go out in the morning.  They were 4-H sheep, al halter trained by the children.  In our situation, the dog would just move the sheep back and forth all day.  She had seen situations where the owners of a good herding dogs were concerned that their sheep were losing weight.  They discovered that it was because their dog was working the sheep all day long while they were at work.  The sheep never had a chance to graze!!!  She told us we would have to keep the dog kenneled except when working because we didn't have enough work for it to do.  Since we didn't want a perpetually depressed dog, we passed on the Border Collie idea.  We did get an Aussie from working lines and she was a joy to train.  When we move, we will need a good herding dog, so I will be watching your adventure with Dooley with interest.



Dooley's mama didn't have that intensity.   She is more a utility dog and works mainly with the cows, but only when told to do so.   She didn't even seem to notice the sheep.   I'm hoping the mix will take the edge off the BC obsessiveness his Dad has.   For now he seems VERY laid back and I'm hoping he stays that way.   I want a dog that will work when I tell it to and then switch to general chicken/home guard on his "off" time.   

Another thing that would keep Dooley from working the sheep when we are not around, if he is prone to do so, is Blue, our LGD.   Blue is very gentle but he doesn't like dogs to chase his sheep, bark at and chase vehicles or any other foolish behaviors~he's not mean about it, he just chases down the offending pup and puts his front paws on him to knock him down and keep him from the behavior.  I'm hoping they will both form a good partnership over time wherein Dooley leaves Blue's sheep alone unless I'm around to let Blue know that it's Dooley's turn to work.   I like it that neither dog is very intense or aggressive thus far...we'll see what time and maturity brings.  

Since I move sheep often, it could be that Dooley will get to work a little every 2-3 days and he can work a little every day on the chickens when we go to feed.  Then, of course, he will work alongside of me when I go for walks, do chores, etc.   Today he actively supervised us digging up a pressure tank, sneaking off with tools we laid down, chewing on our body parts and shoes when we were taking a break and otherwise making a nuisance of himself.  

I've seen BC dogs that were intense and obsessed and those that were just like regular dogs around the farm until it was time to go to work, then they turned on the intensity.   I've also seen BC that had no inclination for herding at all but were obsessed about fetching a ball.   

Right now he's learning "down" and "leave it".


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## Baymule

Before I got my sheep, I wondered how I would move them from barn to pasture and back at night. No worries-shake a red Folgers can and they will follow me anywhere. On our small acreage and small flock, that suffices. It would be fun to have a working dog, but I don't have enough to keep one busy. So I will live vicariously through you and Dooley.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> Before I got my sheep, I wondered how I would move them from barn to pasture and back at night. No worries-shake a red Folgers can and they will follow me anywhere. On our small acreage and small flock, that suffices. It would be fun to have a working dog, but I don't have enough to keep one busy. So I will live vicariously through you and Dooley.



Bay, that feed lure is powerful but only the older ewes have ever truly been trained to it and I'm glad it wasn't all of them.  As it is, if I have to lead them very far they are bumping me, trying to climb on me to get to the feed, trampling my feet and overall just buffeting me in all ways so that I can't walk over the uneven terrain....Fat May will circle me tightly like a cat so that I can't take a step without her running her full 200 lbs into my legs and stepping on my feet.   I feel like I've been run over by a train after moving them this way and so I'd love to get away from that way of moving sheep...it's handy if you want them to go into a penned situation and all but to move paddock to paddock over this rough ground is downright dangerous to my person!   

That's when I realized something had to give...between the sheep that will kill me for the food and those that ignore me because they've never been trained to the feed, so they stay behind, then they confuse the rest of the herd so that they keep going back to those left behind....let's just say if that little dog can even do a SMALL amount of herding or driving or even holding the sheep for me, I'll be happy.   

He's smart enough to learn, it all depends on if I'm smart enough to teach something I know less than nothing about.   Let's just say I'll be praying about it all along the way.


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## Baymule

I shake the can, calling SHEEP SHEEP SHEEP! and i walk to the pasture i want them to go in. I pour out a little feed and go open their gate. They RUN to the open gate and I just go close it. This works even with pastures that are out of sight of their barn. Evening, I just reverse and pour feed in their pan in the barn. They run to the barn, if there was no feed, they would run back to me, baa, baa, baaing. LOL


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## Mini Horses

Baymule said:


> I shake the can, calling




Same here....     They come running --- Even when they are in someone else's field,


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## Beekissed

Little Dooley is growing quickly!  He's been getting in trouble all day for stealing our tools, hardware, etc. and generally making a nuisance of himself.   But, he makes me grin every time I see that happy little tail wagging along as he's dragging off yet another item...can't get too mad at him when he's so very joyful about it all.  I like it that he doesn't get his feelings hurt when he gets a correction...stays happy and loving throughout it all.  

He got tied up for the first time in his life today, when we couldn't trust  him around our work site when we went in to eat.  He yelped a few times but soon learned it was futile and accepted the new restriction on his life....I LOVE that.  He was just as happy when I went out to let him off the lead as he was when I put him on it.  No pouting, no fear of that line, just pure puppy joy.  







Visiting with Mom as she goes out to weedeat.  He's learning to climb and seems quite agile for such a young pup.


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## Baymule

When Trip was a young pup, he would take things that had my scent on them. He watched me plant onion sets one time, then pulled every one of them up. Another time I was working, laid my hammer down, reached for it, only to find it gone. It reappeared two weeks later, in the driveway with chew marks on the handle. I still have that hammer. LOL


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> When Trip was a young pup, he would take things that had my scent on them. He watched me plant onion sets one time, then pulled every one of them up. Another time I was working, laid my hammer down, reached for it, only to find it gone. It reappeared two weeks later, in the driveway with chew marks on the handle. I still have that hammer. LOL



I have a hammer just like that, similarly marked by Ben....it was so chewed up we had to put duct tape around the handle in order to use it.   

I think Dooley is entering the equivalent of the terrible twos....his energy levels are increasing and so is his physical ability/agility.   I went out this morning and he started spinning out of pure exuberance...never did that before.  Going to have to keep this one exercised to burn off all that excess.


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## Ridgetop

Baymule said:


> I shake the can, calling SHEEP SHEEP SHEEP! and i walk to the pasture i want them to go in. I pour out a little feed and go open their gate. They RUN to the open gate and I just go close it. This works even with pastures that are out of sight of their barn. Evening, I just reverse and pour feed in their pan in the barn. They run to the barn, if there was no feed, they would run back to me, baa, baa, baaing. LOL



Yup, after the first generation of sheep are trained, the rest all learn that they want to be in the barn or night fold at night for their feeding. They get a night feed of hay when their forage is gone, and when we have steady green forage, just a small ration of rolled barley corn. 

Training was an effort. I think I wrote about it on my Ridgetop site.  The only problem is that if we want to shut them in early, they are no where to be found!  They have an inner clock that tells them to come  at dusk.  Luckily, our Anatolians stay with them if we forget to let them in or are not home at that time.  The dogs give us reproachful looks because they are on overtime but don't abandon their sheep when their shift is over!  LOL  Had an emergency once and got home at midnight.  Went out to let in the sheep and found them huddled around the gate, with 3 Anatolians ringing them.  The dogs would not let them wander away since it was full dark.  Such good dogs - truly thinking workers.  

Dooley sounds like he is going to be a thinker too.


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## Beekissed

Ridgetop said:


> Dooley sounds like he is going to be a thinker too.



He is and it thrills me because I can't wait to see how he will put his thinking to use on herding.   His mother is the kind of dog they tell to "go get Daisy" and she brings Daisy...and not the other cows...down to the barn to be milked.   I'd love to have a dog I can give a general order to  and get him to understand it that clearly, like "Go get the sheep" and he just brings them to me and into the new paddock without a lot of extra commands and fuss.  I know....I'm dreaming, aren't I?  But...it could happen!  

Bay, sold Charlie today and was so glad I did....she immediately went to her new owner and tucked her head under her arm and never looked at us again.  She acted like that was her long lost owner and she was reuniting with her!  THAT was the person she was supposed to belong to and not me.  Feels good to see something like that.   I couldn't bond with Charlie and that could be the reason why.   She belonged to someone she hadn't met yet.  

Charlie now lives in the Hudson Valley, NY, on a horse and goat farm with some very nice people.   I thank God for His blessing on all of us and on Charlie.


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## Beekissed

Training went well this morning and I think, with many repetitions, I just may get a solid down with this dog.  He's only had a few day's focused training on that and he's starting to get it....I can see the light dawning there.  He's no longer pulling on he leash, he gets "walk up", sit and is starting to recognize "lie down" but needs help with the execution of it still.  

He was trained on chickens yesterday morning and we'll see how much reinforcement he needs on that.  He had started to chase them with mouth open, trying to grab, so he only goes to the coop now on a long line~though he is free to wander up there all day long, he doesn't usually do so.   This morning he walked like a little prince on his line, loose leash and at heel, laid down at the coop on command and was told to stay.   He was still lying down when I came out of the coop and walked like a gentleman back down to the house, even with the cat running in front of us, which usually triggers an exuberant chase sequence between the two.  Nope, he walked nicely.   

That's after only two days of leash work and without a slip leash, like I usually use with the LGDs while in training.  I'm starting to have hope that this little guy may be trainable.   

He went to the sheep paddock with me yesterday to visit Blue, the LGD, and he is showing less fear of the sheep and they are less curious about him.  He had a good romping fight/play session with Blue until they were both worn out and I'm hoping they continue to bond in that way, providing good socialization between them as well as the idea of a pack order.  

This morning I started teaching him about lying down at the gate until I tell him to walk up/through the gate.  We'll do this each time we go through that gate, morning and evening and whenever we pass that way until he learns to lie down automatically at each gate and stay there.  I'll progress from walking through to just staying there while I tend to chores in that paddock.  I want a solid down at the gate....that's going to be one of my most needed tools, to keep sheep in or out when I pass through with the ATV and water wagon.


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## Hufflesheep

Same here....  They come running --- Even when they are in someone else's field, 
[/QUOTE]

Oof! Mine are so stubborn, when they get loose if they hear the grain can they run faster away from me! 
😫


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## Baymule

Bee, words cannot express how happy I am for you, living your dream! It sounds like you have two great dogs. I know what you are saying about Charlie, I firmly believe that some dogs are meant to be with certain people in certain places and sometimes it takes awhile to get that all sorted out. Glad that Charlie found her place and that you gave that opportunity to her.


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## Beekissed

Dooley is coming along in his training and he's starting to "turn on" to more herding type behavior with the sheep....just tiny changes, no attempts to herd or anything.   He's no longer scared of them and will occasionally bark and bounce at one that is getting too close to whatever I'm working on.  He'll stand down when told to do so, on both chickens and sheep.   

We are still doing leash work and he's doing well with that.  Down is still hard to get into his brain case on a consistent basis.   He'll sit down readily at the appropriate times, like at gates, when I stop walking, etc., but I have to make him lie down if I want him down all the way.  He's getting good at stay and we'll continue to work on that.  

I'd still like to see more actual herding desire in him, though I understand that may come later.   I'll probably be glad it comes later as he'll likely be easier to rein in then than now.   

We really love this little dog...he's got such a joyful, sweet personality and he fits in well here.  Not much barking at all, just little yips at the cat or sheep when in pouncing, playful mode.  We like that too...we don't like a mouthy dog.


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## Mike CHS

I'm glad to see you making good progress.


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## Beekissed

He GOT it!  By Jove, I think he got it!  (My Fair Lady....er... Puppy  reference)   For one, Dooley started herding behavior with the sheep this morning~a first~ and stood down when told to do so!   DING!!!!   That will DO, Dooley!!!!  

He didn't start the herding until I was near the sheep and then he started trying to round them up, hitting them with an open mouth here and there, barking and pouncing....all very lightly done but he definitely had a purpose in mind...he was going to move those sheep.   When they faced him and stomped, then he would hit them with the open mouth...not a nip, exactly, but more of a boop with teeth~very fast in and out.   It all lasted just a matter of seconds before I called him off with a "that'll do!" but it was definitely an attempt to move the sheep.   

Then, when I was dishing out his food, I turned around to find him lying down at a distance from the bowl with his head completely on the ground.   Another first!!!   Usually he'll sit down and I'll have to push him into lying down for that and then, while lying down, I hadn't started teaching him to put his head down on his paws or the ground also.    Just lying down was the next step but I was starting to think he wasn't going to "get it" like my other dogs have done....mostly because he doesn't have an older dog showing him how to get the food quicker, by lying down.   But, to have him lying down...ALL the way down...was a good thing...I didn't have to say "down" nor have to make him lie down.   He got much praise and loving for that one!   

I think things are starting to click for young Dooley!   Makes me excited for the possibilities and hoping he continues to impress with learning the skills we need him to learn.   I love it that he has an off switch and he also has lightning recall....no matter what he's doing or where he's at, when I call he scrambles to get there.   I hope that continues as well.


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## Baymule

Oh wow! Progress! That is wonderful. I know you are thrilled and excited. He started working sheep AND obeyed when you called him in.   
Then to lay down without being told at feeding time is awesome. He is listening to you, mulling it over in his mind and deciding that you have some good ideas. What a smart pup!


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## Beekissed

Let Dooley have a little fun with the sheep this morning...just a little.  I wanted to see if he knew what to do with them once he got them moving.   He put half the flock into a pen and was holding them there easily, but then I sent him off to get the other half~the older ewes.   They were not so easy to pen, so he started getting frustrated and I called him off....took a few calls to get him settled down to come back and get down.  He only attempts to herd the sheep if I'm out there and he's showing some good instincts, though doesn't know a bit of what to do with them....that will come later.   I just wanted to see what he's working with naturally....I really think he's going to do well with training and that excites me!  

It tickled me to see him stand up to our meanest ewe, who tags our LGD every chance she gets for no reason at all other than she's a meany pants.  She stomped and lowered her head, he went for her and she tagged him slightly.   Didn't phase him a bit, he bounced right back and nipped her side.   Then she decided she would just ignore him....but that didn't work, so she _*moved*_.   I had a grin so big!   That was the one sheep I worried about, that she would hurt him and scare him off sheep, but he doesn't have scare in his wheelhouse, apparently.  

I called him off and settled him down.  He really wanted to get that meany sheep again but Blue came across the fence line and put one big paw on his body, as if to say, "Enough, little guy!"  Blue is real good on schooling young pups, but he does it gently, using his paws to hold them down or knock them down.   That switched his gears and he started playing with Blue instead.  

Just a little episode for our entertainment and it was fun to watch this little pup moving those sheep.  Small, but mighty and has plenty of courage.  

A little while after that we moved the sheep to a new paddock that was a little distance away and required us to lead and drive, as they can get distracted and want to stop in the paddock in between.  I kept Dooley on the long line for that move and kept us both at a trot behind the flock so he would get the idea that we not only bring the sheep, but we drive the sheep.   He did great!  Easiest move we've ever done to that paddock.  

I'm excited about this little dog...I see great potential for helping us here and that fills me with joy!  

Dooley and big brother, Blue, our Anatolian LGD.  














Practicing down at the gate....


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## Baymule

That put a smile on my face. I love it that Dooley and Blue are such good friends.  Dooley did good on moving the sheep. And he made the mean ewe move her feet!


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## ChickenMomma

I so enjoyed reading this!! Dooley is adorable and I'm sure you are very proud of him.  I wanted to ask, the herding behavior you described is exactly what Magnum does with our goats.  He runs up beside them with an open mouth once they move to where he wants them, he stops.  So he is trying to herd them?  Does this change anything about how I should train?


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## Beekissed

ChickenMomma said:


> I so enjoyed reading this!! Dooley is adorable and I'm sure you are very proud of him.  I wanted to ask, the herding behavior you described is exactly what Magnum does with our goats.  He runs up beside them with an open mouth once they move to where he wants them, he stops.  So he is trying to herd them?  Does this change anything about how I should train?



Yes, it's bad behavior for a LGD and I addressed that in your thread.  That open mouth is a concern but that he actually stops when they get where he wants them gives me hope for him.


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## HomesteaderWife

Can't wait to hear more about this training adventure


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## Beekissed

HomesteaderWife said:


> Can't wait to hear more about this training adventure



I'm waiting for this heat and humidity to subside, then I'm going to have to start working this dog daily and hard.   He's "turning on" now and he needs a job to do, as he's making the cat miserable and he also really wants to work the sheep and poultry.   He's going to make an excellent critter gitter for the farm, as his prey drive is increasing daily.   I love watching him stalking the cat but he's getting a tad too rough, even for the cat.  

He's bored and that's never a good thing with these herding breeds, I gather.  Time to start intensifying his training and his daily exercise.  I don't know that I've ever had a dog with this much jitterbug in his skin, so it will be a challenge for me to work him enough to settle him down.  

He's excellent on the lead now, does well with sit and is still needing work on stay...I think that will get better if I can ever exercise him enough for him to focus well.  He's getting down and stay at the gate pretty well, but is still easily distracted by the other dog, the sheep, etc.   Just puppy stuff, really, so with time and repetition he'll settle down.  

I can't let him go with me to the sheep paddock without him being on a lead now, as he really wants to herd those beasts.   On the leash, he's fine, walks politely, sits when I stand still, lies down and stays, etc., but take him to the sheep without that leash and all bets are off for a bit.   No more off switch now unless I say, "That'll do, Dooley!" and then he'll come to me.  He's had the wool in his teeth now and there's no going back!   

Funny thing is, the sheep always cluster at the gate to each paddock when they see me coming but now if they see that little pup running towards that gate, they back off the gate...WAY back.   I like that.  I'm going to need him to hold those gates for me when I drive the ATV through there, keeping the sheep from rushing out.  

If I manage to train him, he's got the potential for it.  He's got no back down from a fight and I like that.


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## Baymule

Dooley is going to be your right hand helper. He is coming along nicely. Wondering out loud,  would playing ball be a good way to divert some of his energy, or is he like a LGD, totally disinterested and focused only on work? He is making an awesome dog.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> Dooley is going to be your right hand helper. He is coming along nicely. Wondering out loud,  would playing ball be a good way to divert some of his energy, or is he like a LGD, totally disinterested and focused only on work? He is making an awesome dog.



I tried a ball and a toy, hoping he would play fetch....been a LONG time since I had a dog that would play fetch.   He's not a bit interested in that.   He's also not much food motivated, so I can't toss him a kong with a treat in it to get him interested either.  

His  mother would fetch all day long and would bring you her favorite toy for you to throw, so I was hoping he would do the same.   

Yeah...he's focused on me and on work only.  He does, however, like to collect various items from around the place to gnaw on, pounce on and otherwise terrorize.   All of Blue's old bones have been gathered around Dooley's den, my muck boots, a sunflower stalk, the cat's bowl, etc.   I have to go out there every day and put things back, out of reach, etc.   So, he likes toys, of a sort, but doesn't really want to chase them.  I have a tug rope with a rubber ball attached to it and hoped to get him interested in playing tug with me but he's not interested in that either.   

Funny thing this morning....took Dooley on the lead with me to feed Blue in the sheep paddock.   As soon as the sheep saw Dooley, they moved into the wooded part of the paddock, far away from where I was feeding Blue.   This is highly unusual, as they usually crowd around, trying to get Blue's food as I'm dishing it out or other wise looking for a handout.   Rose came part way across the distance between us and the flock but would come no further.   That Dooley has them all minding their manners, big time!  

I like that...a LOT.   Now, if I can just channel all of that and get him to have an on and off switch and be able to trust him to stand down when I say so.   With just high tensile fencing and temp wire as their paddock, I can't afford to let Dooley run them through that wire.   All his work is going to have to be tightly controlled, small moves, small corrections, and calm/mild work.   The sheep need to walk instead of run....and that's going to be so hard to do, as this pup has a lot of amps that need to be turned down before that can ever happen.    

Wish I lived somewhere that had flat highways or trails where I could ride a bike...I'd take him bikejooring and burn off all that energy before working him with the sheep.


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## Mike CHS

Are you working on any verbal directional commands yet? I have a reason for asking but I'll not write a bunch of stuff out if you are already doing it.


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## Nao57

Well....

How much of a herd dog's ability to herd animals like sheep etc or cows depends on genes, and how much is self owned experience of the dog? Is there some kind of consensus or idea of percentages on this? 

I'm also guessing some people will disagree or say anything can become a herd dog. But I don't necessarily think that's completely true. Some do it better than others.


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## Mini Horses

Agility training for Dooley?   Some  commands that are also used with herding....just a "burn off the energy" type job/training.   Many herder types excel in this as they are so "command" driven...and BUSY!!!


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## Beekissed

Mike CHS said:


> Are you working on any verbal directional commands yet? I have a reason for asking but I'll not write a bunch of stuff out if you are already doing it.



Not in a structured way, but each time he swings left I say, "Come by!" and "Away to me" when he swings around them to the right.  "Walk up" when we walk towards them, "that'll do" when I want him to come back to me.   I do that even when he's moving in these ways around the chicken flock, around the kids, etc.  

When he runs ahead of the chicken flock and then flops down, facing them and me, I say "DOWN....GOOD down, Doolley!"  

I try to remember to use that phrasing each time I see him use these flanking maneuvers, these slow walks towards the flocks(both birds and sheep), etc.   I'm hoping they will sink in and will be familiar when we actually get to use them for real.


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## Mike CHS

Beekissed said:


> Not in a structured way, but each time he swings left I say, "Come by!" and "Away to me" when he swings around them to the right.  "Walk up" when we walk towards them, "that'll do" when I want him to come back to me.   I do that even when he's moving in these ways around the chicken flock, around the kids, etc.
> 
> When he runs ahead of the chicken flock and then flops down, facing them and me, I say "DOWN....GOOD down, Doolley!"
> 
> I try to remember to use that phrasing each time I see him use these flanking maneuvers, these slow walks towards the flocks(both birds and sheep), etc.   I'm hoping they will sink in and will be familiar when we actually get to use them for real.




I don't need to write a long response since you are already doing what I was going to suggest.  I mentioned several pages back that a lot of trainers use a round pen or a long lead line to start giving directional commands and that is what you are doing. It makes it easier on the dog to learn if you do the same thing every time and they will become more aware of how you fit into the equation.  One of the hardest things to do with herding dog training is to convince the dog that you know more than he does.  I have only trained Aussies and Border Collies and but yelling results in zero forward movement so it's always a plus to have control and not need to discipline.


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## Beekissed

Mike CHS said:


> I don't need to write a long response since you are already doing what I was going to suggest.  I mentioned several pages back that a lot of trainers use a round pen or a long lead line to start giving directional commands and that is what you are doing. It makes it easier on the dog to learn if you do the same thing every time and they will become more aware of how you fit into the equation.  One of the hardest things to do with herding dog training is to convince the dog that you know more than he does.  I have only trained Aussies and Border Collies and but yelling results in zero forward movement so it's always a plus to have control and not need to discipline.



Yes, I've found that when he's excited about herding the sheep, yelling yields nothing....he's got wool on the brain at that point.   That's one reason I don't use a regular leash on him, but a smaller version of a long line that drags behind so I can step on it if I need him to stop or pause....saw that on some of the herding dog training vids I've seen and it comes in real handy.   Just that sudden stop at the end of a run kind of snaps him out of it so that he can listen to come back/down/out.  

Beyond the prey drive even, I think it gives this little dog a thrill to be able to intimidate these much larger animals.  He always seems so gleeful and satisfied after even a tiny run at them, whereas when he first met them he was the one intimidated by their size and inquisitive nature towards him.   I sure wish I had at least one paddock that was fenced with woven wire so I could eventually work him properly with them in a larger space.   For now it will have to be in the sorting pens, small areas with work on a line first to get him used to moving along with the commands.  

Thank you, Mike, for helping me along this journey....I feel so inadequate to do this properly and I really don't want to mess this up.   Especially since I think Dooley is a man's dog and not so much a woman's, so I think he would respond to training much better if it were being given by a man.


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## Mike CHS

Anyone who has trained a herding dog goes through that frustration you can feel.  They have such a strong instinct that it is a challenge to break through and there is no best technique - just consistency.  I am actually very impressed at the progress you are making by going through it all on your own.  I have been to more than a few dog trials with experienced dog handlers that wound up wanting to sit down and cry since they had well trained dogs that acted like first time puppies.


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## Mini Horses

Mike CHS said:


> I have been to more than a few dog trials with experienced dog handlers that wound up wanting to sit down and cry since they had well trained dogs that acted like first time puppies.




Actually true with most animals.   They have their moments!    

But consistency of words has to come to owner/trainer also.   I did horses for so long, my goats know "whoa, stop, back"     It just comes out of your mouth!


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## Baymule

Mini Horses said:


> Actually true with most animals.   They have their moments!
> 
> But consistency of words has to come to owner/trainer also.   I did horses for so long, my goats know "whoa, stop, back"     It just comes out of your mouth!


Your goats are better behaved than my sheep. All they know is, “She’s got a FEED BUCKET! Knock her down and take it!”


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> Your goats are better behaved than my sheep. All they know is, “She’s got a FEED BUCKET! Knock her down and take it!”



Now you need a Dooley, Bay!  There are a ton just like him in TX.   Remember how the sheep would trample me every time I go to feed Blue, so much that I had to keep a stick handy to beat them off me and him?   Now they stand WAY back....about 40 yds back.   And Dooley is just a tiny puppy!   Imagine how powerful he'll be when he's a full grown dog?  

I'm really liking having a sheep dog!


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## Baymule

Our friend that we buy hay from has a black mouth cur puppy. He has started the pup on cattle, moving young steers from one pen to another. He is going to bring our steer next week. I think I'll ask him about bringing his dog to load the steer back up when we take him to slaughter in March. That ought to be fun.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> Our friend that we buy hay from has a black mouth cur puppy. He has started the pup on cattle, moving young steers from one pen to another. He is going to bring our steer next week. I think I'll ask him about bringing his dog to load the steer back up when we take him to slaughter in March. That ought to be fun.



You'll have to let me know how that all goes, what commands he gives and how the dog responded.   Don't forget to ask how old that pup is and how much training he's put into it.   I wish there were places or people near me who had herding dogs I could maybe source or gain a mentor from.


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## Baymule

Black mouth cur dogs are used around here for cattle and hog dogs. Those dogs are born knowing what to do. This puppy is already nipping at their heels and discovered he could BARK!


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> Black mouth cur dogs are used around here for cattle and hog dogs. Those dogs are born knowing what to do. This puppy is already nipping at their heels and discovered he could BARK!



That seems to be the only time Dooley barks also...when he's working the sheep or wanting quick attention.  It's not a constant yipping but just a few yips for emphasis, it would seem.  Like, "Here's  my teeth and if that's  not enough, I'm going to yell at you too."


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## BYH Project Manager

[/QUOTE]
Hi @Beekissed


Beekissed said:


> Can't believe we don't have a herding dog section on BYHs!   Anyhoo....in the market for a herding dog so I can eventually have help moving these sheep around and I think I found one.  Will go look at him on Wed. evening.   Anyone familiar with the Hangin' Tree Cowdog breed?   I didn't even know they existed but have been doing some research and reading up this evening.  This pup is half HTC/half BC and all beautiful.
> 
> Can't wait to have an all-purpose farm dog on hand, just as a companion, work partner and critter gitter.  I miss my old Jake, who had to be put down due to pain from old age issues.  I'm hoping this pup will fill his shoes nicely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is a Hangin Tree Cowdog - Dagley Ranch News
> 
> 
> Are you wondering what a hangin tree cowdog is? Learn about the hangin tree cowdog breed, and what the different kinds are.
> 
> 
> 
> dagleyranch.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 76212


Hi @Beekissed - so sorry to read about old Jake, yet excited at the same time about Dooley. Seems very adorable!

PS: Check out out Livestock Guardian Dog section here: https://www.backyardherds.com/forums/livestock-guardians.75/


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## Beekissed

Hi @Beekissed

Hi @Beekissed - so sorry to read about old Jake, yet excited at the same time about Dooley. Seems very adorable!

PS: Check out out Livestock Guardian Dog section here: https://www.backyardherds.com/forums/livestock-guardians.75/

[/QUOTE]
Not sure why I should check out the LGD section?   LGD are not herding dogs and not even in the same breed characteristics or purpose.  Did I miss something?


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## Beekissed

kimmil said:


> Do you use a nail grinder for your dogs?



Nope...just a nail clipper as usual.  Can't imagine getting them to hold still for a grinder when they act like I'm trying to kill them to do a quick clip.


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## Mike CHS

Teresa tried to use one on Mel one time and she found really quick that you aren't going to hang on to 160 pound dog when they don't want to be held.


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## Beekissed

Mike CHS said:


> Teresa tried to use one on Mel one time and she found really quick that you aren't going to hang on to 160 pound dog when they don't want to be held.



Exactly!    
Blue would totally freak OUT.  He acts like I'm cutting his leg off when I try to trim his nails.....never had a dog so scared of it and he's  never been hurt with clipping, he just has a bum hip that he guards.  I need to work with him on that.


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## Baymule

I don't trim my dogs nails, I guess they wear them down on the rock driveway. Their nails always look good, so I don't worry about it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## The Old Ram-Australia

G'day folks,thought I would add to the conversation seeing I have had, bred and trained my herding dogs for about 40 years.I believe that if the pup comes from a working background ( and that's important) I job of the farmer is to harness the natural ability of the pup .Generally speaking Cattle dogs have too much "bite" to be good sheep dogs...Give your pup time to grow and mature both psychically and mentally  ,many a young pup has been "ruined" because it got a "really bad knock" when too young.I like to start serious work when the pup is about 18 months old prior to that I like to keep them on a long lead and observe an old dog doing the job..Start out with a few quiet old ewes (but not with lambs at foot) and get them up against a fence,with the pup on a long lead position it between you and the fence behind the sheep .Position yourself at the "hip" of the middle of the group so they have a clear way forward ,once they begin to move fall back to the "tail"  and let them "SLOWLY" make their way along the fence.In the early stages just allow about 5 min and as they become used to it extend the time and distance...I favor the Australian Working Kelpie or a Border /Kelpie X for sheep work.Please do not confuse the Australian Show Kelpie with the working variety as the show type has not got a single working bone in its body....Hope this is of assistance ...T.O.R.


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## Beekissed

The Old Ram-Australia said:


> G'day folks,thought I would add to the conversation seeing I have had, bred and trained my herding dogs for about 40 years.I believe that if the pup comes from a working background ( and that's important) I job of the farmer is to harness the natural ability of the pup .Generally speaking Cattle dogs have too much "bite" to be good sheep dogs...Give your pup time to grow and mature both psychically and mentally  ,many a young pup has been "ruined" because it got a "really bad knock" when too young.I like to start serious work when the pup is about 18 months old prior to that I like to keep them on a long lead and observe an old dog doing the job..Start out with a few quiet old ewes (but not with lambs at foot) and get them up against a fence,with the pup on a long lead position it between you and the fence behind the sheep .Position yourself at the "hip" of the middle of the group so they have a clear way forward ,once they begin to move fall back to the "tail"  and let them "SLOWLY" make their way along the fence.In the early stages just allow about 5 min and as they become used to it extend the time and distance...I favor the Australian Working Kelpie or a Border /Kelpie X for sheep work.Please do not confuse the Australian Show Kelpie with the working variety as the show type has not got a single working bone in its body....Hope this is of assistance ...T.O.R.



Thank you!  That was great assistance!  I don't have an older dog for him to observe and I've never trained on herding, but I'm watching a lot of vids from an old herding dog breeder and he shows step by step what you've described, so I'm going to start with the same.  

Right now I don't take Dooley into the flock without a long lead on him and with me holding it, as he's "turned on" now and wants to herd, even when I'm not around.  Since that has happened, he's being put into an E system that keeps him confined to a certain area, unable to go into the paddocks unless I take him there.  I only take him into the paddocks so the LGDs can get used to him being there under my supervision and don't become agitated when I allow him to approach the sheep.  

Right now we are working on sorting pens and I have the rams and wethers in one paddock that we'll be sorting into pens and then I can start him on some light pen work, as you describe.   Just slow, controlled  moving with the accompanying commands until he seems to "get it".   We've been working on "down" for the past 2 mo. since I've had him and he's spotty on it but is coming along...still needs to understand he needs to get down when I say down and not come to me and then get down.   I'll have to work on a longer lead to accomplish that one, I do believe.  

We'll be working on this all winter long, as time allows.


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## Mini Horses

Yrs back, at a TX goat farm, I was privileged to watch an awesome border collie go into a paddock of goats  and separate chosen ones.  Before this could happen they had to take the LGDs to a kennel.   The whole operation was a wonder and animals well trained.  Sure gives you respect for the time, patience and knowledge required.  

For large or small operations, well trained dogs are such an asset!   Safe animals and unbelievable help for the farmers.

Love to watch trained herding dogs and those great cutting horses!   Such workaholics!


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## Beekissed

Mini Horses said:


> Yrs back, at a TX goat farm, I was privileged to watch an awesome border collie go into a paddock of goats  and separate chosen ones.  Before this could happen they had to take the LGDs to a kennel.   The whole operation was a wonder and animals well trained.  Sure gives you respect for the time, patience and knowledge required.
> 
> *For large or small operations, well trained dogs are such an asset!   Safe animals and unbelievable help for the farmers.*
> 
> Love to watch trained herding dogs and those great cutting horses!   Such workaholics!



I agree!!!  I hope and pray I'll be able to train Dooley appropriately so that he'll be a help instead of a hindrance.   Eventually I'd like to train the LGDs to just lie down or stay back when the sheep are being worked.  For now I'll tie them and let them watch the proceedings, so I can give corrections to them if/when they become agitated by the herd dog.   They are intelligent enough to learn the difference between a predator and a fellow pack member working the sheep in the presence of the shepherd.  If they cannot eventually be loose but not anxious or trying to interfere, they will remain tied and quiet. 

I picture a flock move wherein the LGDs lead the way and the herding dog help drive from behind and I'm going to work towards that dream.


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## The Old Ram-Australia

Hi Bee, a further word of advice.When we had the goats and Maremmas about 30 years ago we always kenneled the LGB's when the Kelpies were at work,the risk is far too great in my opinion to the herding dog and or yourself,by all means let the LGB's observe but from a position of safety...I have observed that there are two types of herding dog ,one rely's on walk up strength and if the sheep do not respond will "push" quite hard and will often give a "nip" to assert its dominance,this action will "not" be tolerated by the LGB's IMO...The other type have a strong "eye" and the sheep will retreat before the dog as it always gives the sheep an escape route.Max has a good eye ,but in the yards will advance quite strongly and bark "on command" to move the sheep....When we had my old dog(now deceased at about 16)Jack we would walk out to the sheep leaving gates open on the way and he knew that was how the sheep were to proceed to the desired destination.......Your dream of the LGB's leading the way is exalty that ,"a dream"...Hope training goes well 
,bearing in mind you are not training but "managing "its natural instincts...T.O.R.


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## Beekissed

The Old Ram-Australia said:


> Hi Bee, a further word of advice.When we had the goats and Maremmas about 30 years ago we always kenneled the LGB's when the Kelpies were at work,the risk is far too great in my opinion to the herding dog and or yourself,by all means let the LGB's observe but from a position of safety...I have observed that there are two types of herding dog ,one rely's on walk up strength and if the sheep do not respond will "push" quite hard and will often give a "nip" to assert its dominance,this action will "not" be tolerated by the LGB's IMO...The other type have a strong "eye" and the sheep will retreat before the dog as it always gives the sheep an escape route.Max has a good eye ,but in the yards will advance quite strongly and bark "on command" to move the sheep....When we had my old dog(now deceased at about 16)Jack we would walk out to the sheep leaving gates open on the way and he knew that was how the sheep were to proceed to the desired destination.......Your dream of the LGB's leading the way is exalty that ,"a dream"...Hope training goes well
> ,bearing in mind you are not training but "managing "its natural instincts...T.O.R.



Good advice!!!  I'll not let the LGDs get to the point they hurt the herder...they will be tied while the dog works.  Our operation doesn't really have a way to get the dogs to a pen, as all our activities take place out in the fields, so they will have to be tied to the water wagon and moved along to the next paddock while the herder moves the sheep.   They'll either get with the program or they will get gone.


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## The Old Ram-Australia

Hi Bee, the answer is not to get rid of the LGD's but to work within the limits of the two breeds parameters.In our case we were not subject to the types of predators you have to face and so your guard dogs are an absolute necessity for a productive outcome..It is going to  take time and patience to get the outcome you desire,but is is the right path for the long term...T.O.R.


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## Baymule

Bee, you now have the wisdom and experience of @The Old Ram-Australia to back you up and "herd" you to the best of the best training techniques. With the training videos that let you actually SEE how to and the advice of TOR, you have the best of both. Dooley doesn't know just how blessed he is to have you funneling all this training into him. He already is an awesome dog, it can only get better. I have to agree with TOR on confining the LGDs when Dooley is working. It just makes sense.


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## Beekissed

Haven't made huge progress with Dooley, as I've had no time to train him lately, but plan to get to it more before spring, when I can get the sheep up into the big field.   He's been tethered on a run line, as he is obsessed with herding the chickens and I don't know if I can train him out of THAT due to his high drive.  

He is maturing a little though, even without any additional training, so when I take him down to the sheep paddock he has good recall, only works the sheep when I say he can and he listens to the commands he knows, which is "down", "walk up", "that will do" and "come here or come back".   He's  no longer afraid of the ATV and will run alongside it now when we go down to the sheep paddock and back.  

He plays ferociously with Blue and Blue lets him win most of the time when they wrestle, but Blue is a streak of lightning and can outrun Dooley...and he can also jump higher.  Blue always has the last laugh.  

I love to see the sheer joy they display when running like the wind and playing so very hard. They are both grinning and panting by the time its over. 










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## Baymule

They are so cute! What good play buddies they are. Dogs need each other's company and play time. I love the pics of Blue on top of the hay bale, that's funny.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> They are so cute! What good play buddies they are. Dogs need each other's company and play time. I love the pics of Blue on top of the hay bale, that's funny.



Bay, Blue loves to lay up there and watch over the flock....we have a lot of tree tops down in that paddock, so I think it gives him a better vantage point.  I expect that one day Dooley will figure out he's light weight and also has the power and speed to jump up there, then ol' Blue is going to have to come up with another gambit to escape the little booger!  

We'll be rolling out those mulch bales onto all the bare soil in that paddock this winter, so when Blue comes back there in the spring he's really going to miss that high point.


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## messybun

Maybe you could make Blue a pallet cube so he can keep a good vantage point when you remove his bales.


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## Beekissed

Been talking to a guy on FB on one of the herding groups there and it turns out he's some kind of world winning trainer.  So humbling that he would take the time out to help me!  He has a home in Japan and also in Canada and does teaching and training on both continents.


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