# Help!  Need questions answered.  Bad situation.



## Southdown (Apr 13, 2012)

Today was a horrible day.  I went outside to discover a dead  lamb frozen in the pen.  Not only was that heartbreaking, but very odd.  I don't have any more pregnant ewes; who in the world had a baby?!  Emma had a baby.  But Emma was never exposed to our ram.  What happened?  Our cryptorchid (castration failure) "wether" is in fact viable.  We knew the castration was a failure last year, but when we talked to our vet, he said the cryptorchids are infertile because the sperm is kept too hot when they are not able to descend.  Not so!  OMG, I don't know what to do now.  Another of the ewe lambs is also pregnant by him (now that I checked the udder) and possibly one other.  He was not supposed to be viable.  Now he either gets castrated by the vet or sent to the market.  

As for my girls, my big question is how is this  going to affect their health and future breeding abilities.  Does anyone know what effects breeding young lambs has?  The two lambs would have been impregnated at only 7 months old and are now having the babies at 12 months.  I am so worried about how this is affecting their health.  I'm sure it affects their skeletal system, since they are not done growing themselves.  Will I be able to breed them in the future?  They were purchased and intended to be used for my breeding plan, as these two girls have the genetics I want to bring into my flock to improve their type.  Also, do I need to milk her out so she doesn't get mastitis?  Now that her lamb is dead, there is no lamb to empty her milk out.  I am never going to castrate earlier than 13 days ever again.  I am going to try waiting longer this year (lesson learned the hard way).  Please help, I am so upset about this.


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## jhm47 (Apr 13, 2012)

Don't worry. Almost all commercial ewe lambs are bred at about 7 months, and they grow into fine, productive ewes.  You also don't have to worry about mastitis, unless you have milked the ewe out some.  They naturally have a waxy plug in their teats, and this prevents bacteria from entering.  Just leave her alone and she will be fine.  She also can be bred again whenever you feel the time is appropriate.  Good luck, and quit worrying!


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## SheepGirl (Apr 13, 2012)

We breed ewe lambs and we have not had any ill effects. They are still growing throughout gestation (albeit a lot slower), lactation, and maintenance and are usually full grown by the time they breed as yearlings.

I wouldn't worry about mastitis with your ewe.

When you castrated the lamb, did you feel to make sure you got both testes under the band?


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## Southdown (Apr 13, 2012)

I am still so worried because both of these lambs are on the small side to begin with.  I was planning on breeding them in November 2012, but this was not expected.  When we castrated Leroy, we were quite confident that both testicles were below the band.  However, since it was our first time doing it, we really struggled to pull them down (they were not descended naturally yet).  We could feel below the band, two small pea sized (if not smaller) testes.  I'm not sure what that was because it didn't work.  My husband thinks that they were so small and immature, that maybe they slipped up above the band and continued to grow?  The vet said he can't be fertile, since the body heat would kill the sperm.  I am quite concerned about the two males I'll be banding this year.  I am going to try waiting and see when they descend on their own first.  But I am concerned about it being so painful and inhumane if I wait too long.  As for the udder of the lamb, she never got milked by us or the baby, so I will leave it alone if you think that will be ok.  Will it dry up on its own?  I will avoid feeding her any grain for a little while too.


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## jhm47 (Apr 13, 2012)

This is another reason why I'm against banding.  The possibility of failure is too great (especially with inexperienced people), the chances of tetanus is always there, and I hate to see/smell body parts rot off an animal.  IMHO, it's better to either cut the testes out, or pinch them with a burdizzo.

As to your ewe lamb, her growth will be minimally impacted, especially if she isn't nursing a lamb.  The fact that she was able to give birth to her lamb will help her to give birth more easily next pregnancy.  Just keep her on her regular diet/schedule, and she'll be just fine.


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## Southdown (Apr 13, 2012)

I would like to learn how to use the burdizzo.  Our vet used it once.  Any tips?  From my understanding of it, you clamp down on the spermatic cords above the testes and hold for a few seconds, then you're done.  My only concern with trying that method is that I am getting the anatomy correct, as far as where to clamp.  I don't have anyone to teach me.  This method does appeal to me and I would like to learn more.  Another concern would be how to tell if it worked.  

Emma is outside standing by where she gave birth and she won't stop calling out for her baby.  She is quite upset that her baby is gone.  It is so sad to see her standing there and wailing out.  I don't think we'll be getting much sleep tonight, as she is quite loud.  Poor thing.


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## SheepGirl (Apr 13, 2012)

We used the Burdizzo back in 2009. All of the boys went to auction except my crossbred 'wether' and one of my neighbor's purebred ram lambs. Well...that was the first time we had used it, so we didn't know what it was supposed to look like. Needless to say, my 'wether' is actually a ram, and (even though he never showed any interest in the ewes like he does now) he got his mother, his twin sister, and his maternal half sister pregnant as a ram lamb...plus all of my neighbor's purebred ewes. He also got his mother pregnant this year (I'm like 85% sure she's bred) by going under the fence.

Sooo....I don't recommend the Burdizzo. I personally really like banding. We've never surgically castrated a ram lamb before.


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## boothcreek (Apr 14, 2012)

Ive been banding for 4-5 years now and never had issues, no smell or rotten anything and after maybe an hour the lambs act like nothings wrong. They just dry out and and some point just fall off never leaving any open wound or anything. 

Now tail banding I imagen to be pretty rank since it has to go thru bone.

As for the burdizzo method I have seen it fail quite a few times so I don't trust that one at all.


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## jhm47 (Apr 14, 2012)

It's best to do it when the animals have developed some maturity.  I would suggest 4 - 6 weeks for lambs.  I wait till my bull calves are about 5 - 6 months old.  At this point, you can readily identify the testes.  I do each side separately by pulling down on one of the testes (much like milking a cow), and putting the burdizzo above.  Then I clamp down, and wait about 45 - 60 seconds to assure that the arteries are crushed and that the blood flow has stopped.  Repeat on the other side.  You might be able to do both on lambs if they are sufficiently small.  The secret is to not be in a big hurry.  There are lots of "slips" if the burdizzo is removed too quickly.  I like this because the animal seems to only be in pain for about a couple minutes.  I also don't have to worry about open wounds or tetanus from having the scrotum rotting off.  It takes about a month for the testes to completely resolve.

I've never had a "slip" with using the burdizzo, and I've used in on hundreds of calves, and quite a few ram lambs.  The biggest secret is to be sure not to hurry too much, and to make sure it's properly placed above the testes.

One of my neighbors banded some nearly year old bulls that he had planned to keep as breeding stock.  The smell was horrible, their scrotums swelled up terribly, and I had a hard time looking at them.  Having been an EMT for all these years, I've got a pretty strong stomach, but that was too much for me.


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## Four Winds Ranch (Apr 14, 2012)

I am sorry to hear about your lost lamb!! 
Your ewe lambs will be fine in their growing and having future lambs! I breed all my ewe lambs at 7ish months, and they lamb out around 11-12 months and have never had a problem. Mastitis won't be a problem, she will dry up on her own, on her regular feed and water! I have found with my sheep that all the ewe lambs that have lambed around a year old have produced a higher percentage of lambs through out their life than those that lambed later!
Good luck with your up coming lambs!


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## Southdown (Apr 14, 2012)

I've discovered that he managed to impregnate more ewes.  Emma's baby died Friday, as I mentioned.   Bonnie, who is also only 12 months, delivered a baby girl this morning.  She lived!  And she is adorable.  However, Bonnie is so immature and she does not really have much milk.  We tried and it's not happening.  Her udder and teats are not really mature yet.  So now we have a bottle lamb.  We tried letting another ewe take her, but no luck.  Poor Bonnie is just so small to be a mom.  Now we're waiting to see if the last ewe (Leroy's mom) is pregnant or not.  We sure hope not, as she is Leroy's mother and it would be inbred.  I think I'm going to wait a couple years before trying to breed Bonnie because she is just so small.  At least Emma is a bit bigger in size, but her lamb didn't survive.  I think I will check the new ram lambs at about 3-4 weeks this year before castration.  If I don't think I got it successfully, then I will call the vet to make sure this time.  I don't want to have this happen again.  When I googled about breeding lambs, I found sound stuff that said it can stunt their growth and decrease their reproductive life span.  Do you think that is legitimate?


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## SheepGirl (Apr 14, 2012)

Southdown said:
			
		

> When I googled about breeding lambs, I found sound stuff that said it can stunt their growth and decrease their reproductive life span.  Do you think that is legitimate?


Here is a study (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNE34wwGaxS49BjyFCUq7ssTA69cSA&cad=rja) with data from as early as the 20s. It is about breeding ewe lambs and their production over a lifetime. Most commercial ewes are culled at six years old, so there is no data about the reproductive usefulness of a ewe. But here is a summary of the charts & data in the study:

Ewes bred first as lambs will, as a two year old, wean more lambs, wean heavier lambs, produce 0.2 lbs less wool than a ewe bred first as a yearling, and weigh more. Ewes bred first as yearlings will, as a two year old, wean less lambs, wean lighter lambs, produce 0.2 lbs more wool than a ewe bred first as a lamb, and weigh less.

Performance over five years (two years to six years old): Ewes bred as ewe lambs will give birth to 0.4 more lambs yet wean 36.8 more pounds of lamb than ewes bred first as yearlings. The only advantage ewes bred first as yearlings have is that they produce 0.5 more pounds of wool.


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## Southdown (Apr 15, 2012)

That makes me feel better. 
So the new bottle lamb, whom we're naming Chloe, has developed scours today.  I tried cleaning her up, but not cleaning off much.  She's a mess back there.  Is this because I fed too much at one sitting?  I know I need to try and feed small amounts, yet frequently.  She just seemed so hungry yesterday after she was born that I let her drink as much bottle as she wanted.  Yesterday she had colostrum supplement and today she's had lamb replacer in the bottle.  Maybe the transition to the new formula.  I was going to dock her tail tonight because I usually do it at 1 to 1.5 days, but now I am not wanting to do it due to the poop all over.  I am too worried about infection.  Do you think I should wait to dock until the scours clears up?  Any advice on getting the scours to clear up?


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## Southdown (Apr 15, 2012)

Here she is.


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## Cornish Heritage (Apr 16, 2012)

I'm a bit late to this conversation but wanted to add that we have had several year old ewes lambing this year & they all had singles and all but two, one died & one needed her lamb pulling, are doing a great job at raising their little ones. 

As for scours, get some probiotics & mix it in the milk.

All the best,


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