# Having trouble settling on one dog



## Martlet (Jul 27, 2016)

I've always had hunting dogs, mostly labradors.  Love them, and may get another some day.  However, I've since moved to a remote area and started a small homestead.  We have about 50 15-50 chickens at any given time as we settle on a breed.  We have pigs in and out, and a garden.  Rabbits and goats may come next year.  We haven't had a predator "problem" because we secure all the chickens and the pigs have gotten bigger.  We do frequently have raccoons, bear, coyotes, and fox on the property, though.

I'd like a dog to fit into the mix.  It would primarily be a pet, but we want something that can stand up to a predator in the event they meet.  We want something that typically predisposed to eating my poultry, if there is such a thing.  I've been researching this for awhile and spoken to some breeders.  Breeds I've looked at are:

Pyrenees:  I was told this dog wouldn't work because my property isn't fenced and it will take off, even if trained.

Maremma and Bernese Mountain Dog:  I was told I don't have enough animals to keep these dogs working, and they needs to live with the livestock.

Anatolian Shepherd:  Haven't found a local breeder to speak with yet.

Am I just out of luck?  Should I just get a mutt and train it as best as I can.  What does everyone else use or think may work in a situation like mine?


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## babsbag (Jul 27, 2016)

The Pyr is known to be a roamer but oh you will love them once you own one and they don't all roam, but...

How much property do you have and can you fence part of it? If you get goats you will want it fenced. The Bernese Mountain Dog is not and LGD and if you want to put them with the livestock they would not be your best choice. 

You need more than one dog so plan on two, they work better in pairs and with bear and coyote two would be a minimum.

You would love an Anatolian too, great great dogs. Most LGDs will learn to leave the poultry alone but it is not a given, nor is it immediate. Took my male about 18 months to stop having chicken tenders. 

@Southern by choice, you need to chime in here.


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## Martlet (Jul 27, 2016)

Thanks!  I work about 2-3 acres now, but they can run around on over 100 before they start ticking someone off.   

I have tons of fences on my property, and will get more if I have goats.  None of them are really "dog" fences.  They are mostly electric and section off small areas, not the entire property.


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## babsbag (Jul 27, 2016)

Electric fences work great with LGDs. Start them with them as pups and they will learn to respect the fence. I have 4' tall 2x4 no climb fence but without that hot wire my dog would be over it in a minute but not with the wire on it.  100' acres is a huge area for dogs to protect even with a pair. You really need to give them a smaller area anyways unless you have stock on all of it. 

I have 3 dogs, a 3/4 pyr x 1/4 toli male and a  Toli/Ovcharka/Akbash/Pyr female and then a Toli/Ovcharka/Akbash/Maremma female puppy. I love my dogs and won't ever go back to farming without them. It would really be good if you had the goats before the dogs, or at least soon. The dogs need to learn what their job is when they are young. It can be done later, but sooner is better.

And by the way...you NEED goats....really really NEED goats...just sayin'   Yes, I am an enabler. 

Where do you live?


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## Dage (Jul 27, 2016)

I am partial to Anatolian Shepherds...thats what I want. Done a lot of research and been looking at them for a long time drooling over em. I have no real experience though so...Southern By Choice would be the go to!


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## babsbag (Jul 27, 2016)

My female acts and looks like a Toli, and I love her to pieces. My male looks and acts like a Pyr and he is my baby so I love him too. The short hair is nicer to care for that's for sure. And my puppy...Mia is just a brat of a love bug...not sure that she will ever truly be an LGD.


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## Martlet (Jul 27, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Electric fences work great with LGDs. Start them with them as pups and they will learn to respect the fence. I have 4' tall 2x4 no climb fence but without that hot wire my dog would be over it in a minute but not with the wire on it.  100' acres is a huge area for dogs to protect even with a pair. You really need to give them a smaller area anyways unless you have stock on all of it.
> 
> I have 3 dogs, a 3/4 pyr x 1/4 toli male and a  Toli/Ovcharka/Akbash/Pyr female and then a Toli/Ovcharka/Akbash/Maremma female puppy. I love my dogs and won't ever go back to farming without them. It would really be good if you had the goats before the dogs, or at least soon. The dogs need to learn what their job is when they are young. It can be done later, but sooner is better.
> 
> ...



Sorry I wasn't clear.  I'm only currently working 2 to 3 acres.  I meant if they are roaming, there are over 100 acres to roam without getting into other people's business.  

I'm in New Hampshire.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 27, 2016)

Need I say more? 
This is BLUE! 





My computer is broke... so this is very hard to do and can't do much 

Above is one of my dogs (pups) The two pictured here are Anatolian /Pyrenees Cross. My avatar is the sire and dam. YES THEY WERE PLANNED! I have tolis, pyrs, and toli/pyrs. I like the well put together toli pyr myself. 

They have great personality, great power and keen ability. They can be very good as a "farmdog" . WE use ours as Livestock guardians not farmdogs but they are suited for such. Not all pyrs roam but have the propensity to do so. Not sure what region you are in but that may play a part in what you need as well. No other dogs can deal with coyote, wolf, bears like a LGD breed. 

Computer fritzing again ( borrowed laptop that is semi operable)... try more in a bit


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## babsbag (Jul 27, 2016)

See, she is the go to girl for dogs...I was just filling in. 

Well if the dog is free to roam the 100 acres he will do so and I am sure they can find a lot of predators to chase off with that much land. But even the temp. hot wire netting will usually work if they are taught early that it hurts.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 27, 2016)

You will need to understand the hard wiring of a LGD breed is very different.

My line is always the same... "They are a species unto themselves." 

They ARE NOT like other dogs. They are smarter than you, know how to do their job and resent people that interfere with what they have been bred to do for hundreds, possibly longer, years.

RESPECT makes a WONDERFUL LOYAL FAITHFUL LGD.

Respect and trust are the two main factors. The dog can do things you cannot. You can do things the dog cannot. PARTNERSHIP is key.

All my dogs are successful. They are successful because I give that room to become the great dogs I know they will be. I trust them they trust me.

grrrr screen screaming at me like the exorcist .... back when I can


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## Martlet (Jul 27, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Need I say more?
> This is BLUE!
> 
> 
> ...



Awesome!  Drop one off at my house.


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## OneFineAcre (Jul 27, 2016)

I have two areas each 2 acres fenced in and 4 GPs and one GP border collie cross
None of mine try to get out
Well except Angel our female GP
She tries to slip out of the gate when we are doing chores
But she runs to the back door to be let in the house 
I need to get some pics of Bella and Rosevelt
They are 20 weeks old now and are naturals


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## Southern by choice (Jul 27, 2016)

I will warn you .. you do want to raise them outdoors. They prefer it and they are nocturnal. 
You will need to train them to poultry but it is well worth the loss and time spent. That way EVERYTHING is protected on your land.

Most of my pyrs never even looked at a chicken funny. Some were terrors but now guard poultry full time.
The Anatolians are a little finicky about things. In this pic you can see the wire... the wire is there so the goats don't go into the woods as they have killed most of the trees there but mostly to keep the goats out of the chicken feed. The chickens can come and go under the wire. The dogs however feel that the chickens should not come into the goat fields. They don't kill them but run them back to where they think they should be. 
At the same time if anyone is messing with the chickens (geese) or they chickens are tussling with each other the dogs go ballistic. It is kinda like they are OCD. LOL

Temperament will vary by breeding stock. 
Although many have pyrs as pets and many are highly social there is a flip side. When I have to do a consult and go to others farms I am much more cautious with Pyrs.
I have 2 pyrs that NO ONE can go near but family. They must be locked up with visitors. My other pyrs are fine. My toli's are great with us bringing people into the field but we do have STRICT rules. 
One of our toli/pyr's is extremely picky of who we let in the field. If I bring a person to the gate and he doesn't want them in the field they don't go in. 

The Maremma is a good dog. They are a smaller dog. It also varies from breeding stock. Many are wonderful. I do see alot of Maremma crosses and most are nutso. I think it is a matter of genetics not mixing well and where people are just throwing two dogs together and not breeding for specific traits. 

@babsbag  mentioned her dogs- which are fine but I warn you ... many of these "multiple breed crosses" are NOT fine. Again I think it is careless breeding practices. 

There are Shars, Tatras, Karakachan as well.
All fine dogs... the Karakachans are too small for me.
The Shars which are Sarplaninacs are a very good dog as well but hard to find breeders in the states that utilize them for LGD's
The Tatra's again... depends on stock but are great dogs just small.

Anyone who tells you "hands off" or don't bond with the dog STAY AWAY FROM! 

Personally I like larger stock and there is a reason. I have a few smaller ( as in shorter) dogs and they are powerful and do their jobs well but.... Larger dogs simply are more powerful. When taking down a predator like a coyote, the guardian team will work together. The faster dog grabs and pulls the rear leg the larger dog goes over the top of the back , crushing the spine. 

I am a believer in multiples. The more land and the higher the threat the more dogs needed.
Too many UNDERDOG and this exhausts the dog(s) and that is when most see poor behavior.


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## Martlet (Jul 27, 2016)

Thank you VERY much for that thought out response.  It sounds like I'll have to really research the breeder.  I don't want a dog that nobody except family can approach, either.   

I would prefer larger stock, and I'm fine with getting two dogs.  It would probably be easier on them if we're away during the day, too.


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## babsbag (Jul 27, 2016)

When I raised my first two LGDs as pups they had each other to play with and I think it made a big difference in their desire to play with livestock. My puppy now wants to play but most of the time the older dogs aren't interested so she tries to "play" with baby goats.  Never never what you want them to do. NEVER !!!


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## Mike CHS (Jul 27, 2016)

Hope not to hijack but a Quick question - What is considered a "farm dog"?  and the second part - how do your LGDs get along with your herding dogs if you have them?


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 27, 2016)

Along with my two LGD's I have an English Shepherd, (a herding breed) which is also considered a "farm dog".  While not an LGD, they are fine with the animals.  They are great watch dogs, vermin killers, hunters, family dogs and everything in between.  My LGD's and my English Shepherd get along very well.  When I got the English Shepherd she was about 4 months old so I introduced her to the Pyr on neutral territory.  They are fast friends now and enjoy play time almost every evening.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 27, 2016)

Martlet said:


> Thank you VERY much for that thought out response.  It sounds like I'll have to really research the breeder.  I don't want a dog that nobody except family can approach, either.
> 
> I would prefer larger stock, and I'm fine with getting two dogs.  It would probably be easier on them if we're away during the day, too.



You will need to put effort in especially if they are pups. My 18 month trained dogs will still go through an adjustment period in their new places. One just left (under the thread "Not Leo goes to his new home)
They have been visiting the dog for 9 months on and off. He is adjusting well but his parameters are clear... they didn't just turn him loose. 
Keep in mind dogs in the field are often different out of the field... more on this below



Mike CHS said:


> Hope not to hijack but a Quick question - What is considered a "farm dog"?  and the second part - how do your LGDs get along with your herding dogs if you have them?



Not sure if you were asking me this @Mike CHS  but I do not have actual WORKING HERDING DOGS but I do have a German Shepherd Dog ( Schutzhund started) and  Mutt that has been the farm dog. These dogs NEVER go into the livestock fields. Now, I can bring my LGD's out of the fields and they are fine with the "family dogs".
The fields are THEIRS. We respect them and what they do. As far as for you, because I know you are working with herders... you can introduce your LGD's and tehy can learn the herders have a job.... I DO NOT like this however. I am a strong believer in respecting what the dogs do. Both the herders and the LGD's. 
When the herders need to herd the LGD's should be put up so the herders can do their job. Far less stress on the LGD's. LGD's see these maneuvers as they would predatory behavior. The herders should be with the livestock when they have to do their job. Most people I know that use herding dogs use them and put them up when not working them.

When we bring the dogs from the field they are (except the 2 I mentioned) very friendly toward even the smallest toddler. Are Anatolians will roll over and let a toddler love on them. Everyone that meets the dogs love them. 

They are highly intelligent and the level of protectiveness and possessiveness will vary.
Callie ( Anatolian in avatar) loves people! LOVES people. Yet, she won't tolerate anyone scaring, chasing, hurting or stressing her goats EVER. So when I take people in I tell them what they can and can't do. 
Callie is fine and will stay right there. 
One day we had our vet out and we went into the baby goat pen, Callie was loving him and gving kisses... I WASN"T thinking. I still cannot believe I dropped the ball on this one... I don't know what or WHY I wasn't thinking. All was fine... until.... we started grabbing baby goats so the vet could inject them (selenium).... one of the goats was a hollerin.... Callie's mouth wrapped around the vet's hand- she did NOT bite him it was a warning- no more! I apologized over and over and just couldn't believe how stupid I was. My protocol is to either lock the dog up or take the goats outside the field- which is what we usually do.
We can do anything with the goats but this was not us and he was stressing her babies. 

We never want "mean" dogs. Some of our more "assertive" dogs are that way because of their location. We are on a road... it gets busy... but too many people stop and pull up and go slow... the dogs see this as a threat. We had a livestock theft attempt sometime ago at 3 am. My dogs prevented it. We also have far too many strangers that pull up. We have no sign, we are not a petting zoo, no for sale crap up, yet people will pull up and think they can start walking around. We also live on a country highway... so this gets old.  The dogs all line up at the fence everytime I have to walk out and talk with the latest joker that pulls up. Most people are fine and just looking for goat meat. Some however are not ok and give the impression of "scoping". The dogs will protect us as well. I like that. I like that my dogs are always watching. If we are relaxed they are too but there is still always a watchful eye. 

The dogs have protected us when we couldn't see what was going on... they will cut us off and move us back faster than it takes us to realize what they are doing. They sometimes will prevent us from moving... once we realize they will leave us and go take care of the issue. They have saved many of our goats lives by alerting us that something was wrong. Not just from predators.

They are worth their weight in gold.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 27, 2016)

@Mike CHS  sorry I never responded to what a "farm dog" is. A Farm dog runs the land and is basically the "watchdog"... not in with livestock directly. Out and about keeping the perimeter clear and driving out the unwanted predators.

Some LGD's that fail at being LGD's can be great farmdogs.... Some of the LGD breed x with other breeds like herders make great farmdogs but don't usually make great LGD's. 

A good farmdog is one that poses no threat to livestock but is not a livestock guardian. Selecting a farmdog is still important to look at what your predators are. My mutt is an awesome farmdog BUT she lacks size to take on a coyote. She will drive out just about anything but at 50 lbs certainly can't take on too much.


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## OneFineAcre (Jul 28, 2016)

babsbag said:


> When I raised my first two LGDs as pups they had each other to play with and I think it made a big difference in their desire to play with livestock. My puppy now wants to play but most of the time the older dogs aren't interested so she tries to "play" with baby goats.  Never never what you want them to do. NEVER !!!


I had originally planned to put my pups Bella and Rosevelt in different fields, but decided to put both in with their dad Marvel specifically for the reason that they could play with each other.
Has worked our really well.


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## Bruce (Aug 4, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Need I say more?
> This is BLUE!
> 
> 
> ...



Are you wanting to send Blue off to a new home?


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## Southern by choice (Aug 4, 2016)

Bruce said:


> Are you wanting to send Blue off to a new home?



 Blue is not for sale. 
We do have several we will consider for placement.
PM me if you would like to interview, not every dog is right for every environment etc.


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## Birdy Côté (Jan 4, 2017)

Martlet said:


> I've always had hunting dogs, mostly labradors.  Love them, and may get another some day.  However, I've since moved to a remote area and started a small homestead.  We have about 50 15-50 chickens at any given time as we settle on a breed.  We have pigs in and out, and a garden.  Rabbits and goats may come next year.  We haven't had a predator "problem" because we secure all the chickens and the pigs have gotten bigger.  We do frequently have raccoons, bear, coyotes, and fox on the property, though.
> 
> I'd like a dog to fit into the mix.  It would primarily be a pet, but we want something that can stand up to a predator in the event they meet.  We want something that typically predisposed to eating my poultry, if there is such a thing.  I've been researching this for awhile and spoken to some breeders.  Breeds I've looked at are:
> 
> ...


 


I know a woman with a part Pyrenees mutt- PERFECT. DOG. She was bred in Kansas, but given to a shelter. she doesn't work a farm, but she's so sweet to people, but will fight a dog if they challenge her; I'm sure she'd take on a coon or coyote. She has the size and snow white coat of a Py, but with her few spots, i think shes part border collie.
   I know she has had pups; maybe you'll find a grandpup of hers. Don't pass up a mutt, they're often more loyal and healthy than purebreds.  

EDIT; How on earth could I forget?? She works with horses.. Lives indoors, hangs with the horses all day. Quite good about not getting kicked.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 4, 2017)

Birdy Côté said:


> I know a woman with a part Pyrenees mutt- PERFECT. DOG. She was bred in Kansas, but given to a shelter. she doesn't work a farm, but she's so sweet to people, but will fight a dog if they challenge her; I'm sure she'd take on a coon or coyote. She has the size and snow white coat of a Py, but with her few spots, i think shes part border collie.
> I know she has had pups; maybe you'll find a grandpup of hers. Don't pass up a mutt, they're often more loyal and healthy than purebreds.



Welcome to BYH.
I hate that pretty much your first post is going to be met with a rebuke.
Your end statement, and I quote _"Don't pass up a mutt, they're often more loyal and healthy than purebreds." _*Is not only false but quite foolish and has absolutely no merit to it whatsoever.*
As far as the "perfect mutt" Pyr/Border Collie.... *some* may be an adequate farmdog.  Livestock guardians are different from farmdogs.


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## Bruce (Jan 4, 2017)

Unrelated to the suitability of a given dog, mutt or purebred, Great Pyrenees are not always pure white. In fact they frequently have masks, spots, etc.


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## Birdy Côté (Jan 4, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Welcome to BYH.
> I hate that pretty much your first post is going to be met with a rebuke.
> Your end statement, and I quote _"Don't pass up a mutt, they're often more loyal and healthy than purebreds." _*Is not only false but quite foolish and has absolutely no merit to it whatsoever.*
> As far as the "perfect mutt" Pyr/Border Collie.... *some* may be an adequate farmdog.  Livestock guardians are different from farmdogs.



When I say farmdog, I mean a dog that can perform well in multiple ways while in the presence of livestock (including guarding them). Sorry for the confusion.

As for mutts, everyone can agree that all breeds typically have standard health issues. in larger breeds such as Great danes, circulation. In shepards, dysplasia. Pugs, respiratory and reproductive. My own "purebred" German Shepherd Dog is, quite bluntly, a defected one. Severe anxiety, aggression, and very prone to eat infections. But I'm not one to abandon dogs. And this coming after 30+ years of shepherds.. I suspect poor bloodlines. 

"Purebred" does NOT mean healthy or sane.

And by "perfect mutt", I was speaking of the one mutt in particular. It's ridiculous to claim that blood makes a good dog. Mutts can be awful as well. 

As for (And I quote) "no merit" for mutts being healthier than purebreds? Elementary grade science will tell you that the more diversity of the gene pool, the less occurrences of genetic/hereditary diseases of weaknesses.
The unwavering loyalty of a mutt, is however, an opinion. And resorting to call someone an Idiot for their opinion of mutts? Thank you, I appreciate the warm welcome. However, I digress. 
Have a good one


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## Birdy Côté (Jan 4, 2017)

Bruce said:


> Unrelated to the suitability of a given dog, mutt or purebred, Great Pyrenees are not always pure white. In fact they frequently have masks, spots, etc.



Yes, although she's smaller than the breed standard, so I've got to assume she's got something else in her


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 4, 2017)

Didn't see anyone call you an Idiot. 



Birdy Côté said:


> I know a woman with a part Pyrenees mutt- PERFECT. DOG. She was bred in Kansas, but given to a shelter. she doesn't work a farm, but she's so sweet to people, but will fight a dog if they challenge her; I'm sure she'd take on a coon or coyote. She has the size and snow white coat of a Py, but with her few spots, i think shes part border collie.
> I know she has had pups; maybe you'll find a grandpup of hers. Don't pass up a mutt, they're often more loyal and healthy than purebreds.
> 
> EDIT; How on earth could I forget?? She works with horses.. Lives indoors, hangs with the horses all day. Quite good about not getting kicked.


Glad she is doing well for her owners 
Most dogs however will do just as you said. Doesn't matter if they are a mutt or purebred. 

I do think it really depends on the dog… some mutts are healthier and PB's and vice versa. 

I've seen mutts that are allergic to EVERYTHING  and have all kinds of health issues.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 4, 2017)

Birdy Côté said:


> As for (And I quote) "no merit" for mutts being healthier than purebreds? Elementary grade science will tell you that the more diversity of the gene pool, the less occurrences of genetic/hereditary diseases of weaknesses.
> The unwavering loyalty of a mutt, is however, an opinion. And resorting to call someone an Idiot for their opinion of mutts?



I am well past elementary science and therefore I disagree with your statement. Diversity of the "gene pool" does not guarantee less occurrence of disease or weakness.
Mutts as well as purebreds may have serious health consequences. 
Poor temperament and or unsound dogs are from poor genetics and crosses that have extreme different purposes.
I am not anti "mutt" quite the contrary. However, to make a statement such as you did is simply without merit, plain and simple.

I did not call you an idiot.


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## Birdy Côté (Jan 4, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> I am well past elementary science and therefore I disagree with your statement. Diversity of the "gene pool" does not guarantee less occurrence of disease or weakness.
> Mutts as well as purebreds may have serious health consequences.
> Poor temperament and or unsound dogs are from poor genetics and crosses that have extreme different purposes.
> I am not anti "mutt" quite the contrary. However, to make a statement such as you did is simply without merit, plain and simple.
> ...




Science can never be guaranteed- something may be the same 99.9999% of the time, but there are exceptions to everything. However, when canids are limited in their breeding, genes between individuals may interact poorly. All breeds have suffered from inbreeding at one point or another, typically around the time they are founded, to preserve very selective traits. Keyword; *may*, *prone*, and *typically.* Not always.
   I do enjoy purebred dogs, and they can be wonderful companions. But from a scientific, genetic standpoint, crossing healthy mutts will often produce dogs of varying appearance and characteristics, and usually of wonderful health.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 4, 2017)

Temperament is huge as well, especially with true LGD's 

Many mutts that would be fine as a farm dog or pet wouldn't be suitable for being an LGD. That is just another consideration.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 4, 2017)

Birdy Côté said:


> Science can never be guaranteed- something may be the same 99.9999% of the time, but there are exceptions to everything. However, when canids are limited in their breeding, genes between individuals may interact poorly. All breeds have suffered from inbreeding at one point or another, typically around the time they are founded, to preserve very selective traits. Keyword; *may*, *prone*, and *typically.* Not always.
> I do enjoy purebred dogs, and they can be wonderful companions. But from a scientific, genetic standpoint, crossing healthy mutts will often produce dogs of varying appearance and characteristics, and usually of wonderful health.


Quite simply all "purebreds" were developed by crossing to develop dogs of a specific purpose and this is why we had breeds we have today. It takes years of dedication and great ability to develop a new breed. Mutts are generally from an oops litter or ignorant people that have little knowledge in breeding and put two incompatible breeds together.  To state that mutts "usually" produce wonderful health is a very open statement. Certain breeds as you know are prone to certain issues. Crossing with another breed that is different does not eliminate those and now you add the other breed's genetic/heritable issues as well.
Purebreds also produce wonderful healthy animals. Again it comes down to breeders knowing what they are doing, breeding sound dogs, not just physically healthy but mentally stable.
Working with many breeds and for 35 years I can tell you there are a whole lot of nut job dogs out there. Shelters are filled with dogs that have presumably been abused. Sad truth is many of these dogs given up were never abused they were given up because they are nuts. Amazing how many are mutts. 

Sadly the US does have a poor history of breeding for integrity.  

As far as hybrid vigor, I do not completely disagree. However breed purpose and type does matter. Most of us that work with Livestock Guardian Breeds are all to aware of the nightmare that awaits the person that gets a LGD/Herding dog cross and thinks they will be a LGD.  Breeding a LGD breed with another LGD breed as long as the breeder knows what they are doing and know the genetics and temperament, strengths and weaknesses of the dogs will keep the integrity of the LGD.  

Our family has had GSD's for 5 generations. It is a shame what has happened to this wonderful breed. 
I my GSD!


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## Latestarter (Jan 5, 2017)

IMHO & just as an aside, this thread was geared to discuss most specifically; livestock guardian dogs (LGDs), as opposed to farm dogs, mutts, and generic dog discussions... just sayin. 

Though any dog may live with/near livestock and may even display some potential to "guard" "livestock", that does not make that animal a LGD as LGD's (job description & breed designation) have been bred over thousands of years to do that specific job. A true LGD is an animal bred from one of several specific breeds, that come from only those specific breeds. By the truest meaning of the word "mutt", even a cross breeding between two (or more) different (compatible) LGD breeds would create one, though it could still carry the designation LGD due to parental heritage. But it would be a mutt, (as opposed to) not a purebred.

Mutts are also bred/created from mating two compatible species (as opposed to incompatible) and not always from/by ignorant people. What gives them the "mutt" spec is that they are not "pure bred". As such, anyone trying to create a new breed would be producing mutts up to the point that they have the new breed's desired traits repeatable and standard through future breeding, at which point they would no longer be mutts but be a new "accepted" breed with standards.


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