# Opinions on wormer paste rotation pack



## Pearce Pastures (Feb 6, 2012)

Good morning fellow goat addicts,

I was spending some leisure time looking of the new Caprine catalog and was wondering if any of you have ever gotten/used the paste wormers and what you thought of the results. Link below to the one I am wondering about.  I do have vet checks prior to worming so I don't do it without cause but I was wondering how effective/safe these pastes are.  

http://www.caprinesupply.com/wormer-rotation-pack.html

Wormer Rotation Pack $24.60 
Qty: Add to Cart .OR Add to Wishlist| Add to Compare.Quick OverviewOur rotation pack gives you 3 tubes of worming paste from three separate classes of dewormers for best deworming coverage. Each paste wormer will worm 10-12 goats per tube.  

Details
Our rotation pack gives you 3 tubes of worming paste from three separate classes of dewormers for best deworming coverage.
 You'll get one each of 

Safe-Guard (Fenbendazole in the benzimidazole class), 
IverCare (Ivermectin in the macrocyclic lactone class), and 
Pyrantel Pamoate (in the pyrimidine class). 

Each paste wormer will worm 10-12 goats per tube. Follow the label directions for dosage and check with your veterinarian when using these on young or pregnant animals. .


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## redtailgal (Feb 6, 2012)

http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-parasite-mgmt

Check out this link and consider the information on it before you buy.  (page written by our own Elevan)


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## elevan (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks for the plug RTG  

I keep coming back to your thread Pearce Pastures trying to decide how I want to respond to it...

On one hand it is a good price and it is good to have multiple dewormers on hand.  On the other I'm not a fan of the paste dewormers because I don't feel that the chemical can be evenly distributed throughout the tube...after all they are for horses and for horses you're generally giving a whole tube so it wouldn't matter to them since you're not breaking it down. _(paste tubes being unevenly distributed is my opinion only and not a proven fact)_

Should you use the dewormers on a rotational basis as they imply?  I don't think it's a great plan...if you use dewormers on a rotational basis without knowing what's working and what's not then you'll continue the problem of worm resistance that we already have.

I personally prefer to use one type that I know is working now and use it appropriately for what I'm dealing with and never underdose (which could be a concern with paste dewormers).

I know that we have some members who use the pastes and are happy with them.  

All of that said, this would be a good way to get 3 different class dewormers as it's very economical.  So, if you do it then I would suggest that you use one type until it's gone and only if you have a fecal first.  But...the safeguard tube is only really gonna be good for you if the goats get tapeworms...

So I know that's a lot of back and forth but my thoughts are mixed on this.

Read the link that RTG provided if you haven't already.  At the end of that article there is a link to a couple of university sites and a thread on the subject.

_eta:  see italicized wording_


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 6, 2012)

I have used equimax horse paste for tapeworms, very very successfully,  As in, hand fulls of tapworms fall out of them. 

I think using the paste wormers is a good idea, if you have just a couple goats. 

Their is: panacure which is safegaurd
quest which is cydectin
and the ivermectin pastes. 

And I personally don't believe the wormer isn't evenly distributed in the tube. I have never called and asked, but my understanding is that it is made in batches and then put in the tubes, So clearly it would have to be very very well mixed.


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## Goatherd (Feb 6, 2012)

> And I personally don't believe the wormer isn't evenly distributed in the tube. I have never called and asked, but my understanding is that it is made in batches and then put in the tubes, So clearly it would have to be very very well mixed.


Absolutely true.  A manufacturer of ANY product that is put into a container or tube makes said product in large vats or vessels ensuring the ingredients, both active an inactive,  are thoroughly mixed and evenly distributed throughout the entire product.  Ask anyone who works in quality control.  Samples of said product are constantly being evaluated and tested so that what is being "sold" on the label is in fact, what is in the tube.


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback all.  It seems like the paste would just be easier overall to dispense to our little herd but I am not sure about it just yet.  I definitely test first before worming and treating.  I am having the vet out in a few weeks when our boys arrive and we will see if I need anything before I decide on making an order or staying with what  we have done in the past.


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## elevan (Feb 6, 2012)

Pearce Pastures said:
			
		

> I am having the vet out in a few weeks when our boys arrive and we will see if I need anything before I decide on making an order or staying with what  we have done in the past.


Be sure to ask your vet what chemical dewormers are experiencing the most resistance issues in your area.



			
				Goatherd said:
			
		

> > And I personally don't believe the wormer isn't evenly distributed in the tube. I have never called and asked, but my understanding is that it is made in batches and then put in the tubes, So clearly it would have to be very very well mixed.
> 
> 
> Absolutely true.  A manufacturer of ANY product that is put into a container or tube makes said product in large vats or vessels ensuring the ingredients, both active an inactive,  are thoroughly mixed and evenly distributed throughout the entire product.  Ask anyone who works in quality control.  Samples of said product are constantly being evaluated and tested so that what is being "sold" on the label is in fact, what is in the tube.


To clarify...I did not intend to insult anyone in quality control.  Ingredients settle...which is why we should shake liquid meds before administering.  Ingredients can settle in tubes too and it's kind of hard to shake a paste.  As I said before it's my opinion and I've never scientifically tested it.


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## Goatherd (Feb 6, 2012)

> Ingredients can settle in tubes too and it's kind of hard to shake a paste.


If you follow manufacturer's instructions, nowhere on a tube of worming paste is there any requirement or suggestion to shake a tube before using it.  The thick viscosity of a paste or gel inhibits ingredients from separating.  The gel/paste serves as a suspension for the active ingredients in a worming product.  
Whether you use some or all of the product at one time, or over a period of time, the potency and beneficial activity of the product remains the same from beginning to end providing you don't extend the expiration date.  
Manufactures of products cover all their bases when it comes to proper administration of their product to avoid potential liabilities from consumers.

Shaking a tube or syringe of paste is not required any more that one would shake a tube of tooth paste, antibiotic cream, hydro cortisone ointment, etc.


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## Stacykins (Feb 6, 2012)

So how do you measure a proper dose from a tube of paste?


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## elevan (Feb 6, 2012)

Stacykins said:
			
		

> So how do you measure a proper dose from a tube of paste?


Some (like Probios) have click dials on them.  Though others that do not people will measure by inches (or fractions of a tube).



			
				Goatherd said:
			
		

> > Ingredients can settle in tubes too and it's kind of hard to shake a paste.
> 
> 
> If you follow manufacturer's instructions, nowhere on a tube of worming paste is there any requirement or suggestion to shake a tube before using it.  The thick viscosity of a paste or gel inhibits ingredients from separating.  The gel/paste serves as a suspension for the active ingredients in a worming product.
> ...


I have seen every one of those things separate in the past and as a result I do massage the tubes that they come in now.  But the dewormers that we are talking about come in a hard tube that cannot be massaged.  I've stated multiple times that this is my personal opinion.  To each their own and each farm needs to decide what is right for them.  I administer pour ons and injectibles orally...some think that is a bad idea and some agree with my method.


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## Roll farms (Feb 7, 2012)

Not trying to add fuel to the fire, just stating what my vet told me years ago when I had a large pony to deworm...I asked how much of the tube to use, and she said the whole thing...when I questioned that, she told me that when in vet school (this would have been 20 or 25 yrs ago, mind you) she toured a facility that made tubed dewormers and they went down a line where they first got the 'active ingredient' shot into them, and then the 'fluff' (filler).  
In other words, the ingredients were not mixed together, but put in seperately.

In her opinion, only one end of the tube had *any* dewormer in it at all, so you'd need to give whole thing to be sure they got any.

Yes, things may have changed over time w/ how they do it, and I'm not even sure what brand / facility she toured....but that explanation was good enough for me then, and the fact that I can more economically (in a larger herd) use injectables orally w/ good results....I see no reason to test it.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 7, 2012)

One of us really should call some of the manufacturers and actually find out the answer to this. Then we wouldn't have to keep having this discussion.  
Not that I mind having discussion's with you fine folks, It just seems we should be able to get a concrete answer.


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## Goatherd (Feb 7, 2012)

Take this for what it's worth.  I went and got a tube of Ivermectin paste 1.87% from a shelf where it's been sitting for over 6 months.  I opened the package and dispensed the entire product into a dish.  While I don't have sophisticated camera equipment or photography skills to say the least, this is the end result.

A slightly amber-colored, semi-clear gel came out of the tube.  There were no pockets or areas of the gel that were inconsistent from the complete product, just gel without any discrepancies from beginning to end.  The tube was not shaken, rolled, tapped, or disturbed before opening. Oh, and I forgot, a wonder apple fragrance as this particular product is apple flavored.

The end.


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 7, 2012)

I really do appreciate all of your experiences here.   I think if I do try the pastes this time, I will do a follow up with my vet to see if it worked effectively, just to be sure (I did a little searching and have found conflicting reports among scholars and vet researchers as well-I thought about calling the manufacturer to see if they could direct me to any studies/tests that demonstrate the efficacy of the pastes or the chemical distribution but probably won't have time today---here is the number if anyone is feeling jazzy...) 

PFIZER ANIMAL HEALTH
235 E. 42ND ST., NEW YORK, NY, 10017
Telephone:269-833-4000 
Customer Service:800-733-5500 and 800-793-0596
Veterinary Medical Investigations & Product Support:800-366-5288


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 7, 2012)

Goatherd said:
			
		

> http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/Michael3215/P1010660.jpg
> 
> Take this for what it's worth.  I went and got a tube of Ivermectin paste 1.87% from a shelf where it's been sitting for over 6 months.  I opened the package and dispensed the entire product into a dish.  While I don't have sophisticated camera equipment or photography skills to say the least, this is the end result.
> 
> ...


Yum!!!  That looks a little bit like the stuff inside a tomato hornworm!


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