# Yikes.



## cmjust0 (Jul 16, 2010)

Checked eyelids on some 6-7wk old kids night before last, and one was getting fairly pale.  Light pink, I guess..  He acted fine, though, and I thought to myself......he needs dewormed tomorrow night.

So, last night (after working all day, then bushhogging till dark, etc) I made my way to the barn with dimethox (he needs his 2nd round of preventative, too) and a bottle of injectable cydectin.  

I grabbed him and his 'littermates' (  ) and gave them all dimethox, then went ahead and gave them all shots of cydectin inj...bout 1/2ml each.  

(Cydectin Inj is recommended as an actual shot around here, about 1ml/100lbs.  I've used it at that dosage on adult does, and they pink back up...but it's fairly slow.  Not sure if I like using it this way yet, but we'll see.  Might switch to drenching it.....my fear is that since moxidectin is pretty long-acting, by injecting it, their blood levels may slooooooowly taper off to the point that they're running around on "low-dose" cydectin for long periods at a time, allowing parasites to build uber-resistance..  I dunno..  Anyway...)

So...he got his shot of cydectin, and he got his dimethox.  

THEN I notice he's just kinda....droopy lookin'.  I went over and pet on him for a second, thinking maybe the shot was hurting him..  Checked his eyelids while I was at it.

HOLY CRAP...he was pretty much whited out.  Still a teensy bit pink, but in the 'fatal' range on FAMACHA for sure.

I was like...uh oh...I just gave him Cydectin...at which point I was actually pretty thankful I'd only given him 1/2ml SQ, instead of a few MLs right down the hatch..

So...I thought and thought...and thought about how long it usually takes my does to pink back up after a shot of cydectin...and thought about how much time this guy might have left....and I actually went back in the house, loaded up about 3mls of Safe Guard, and drenched him with it.

So now a whited-out goat has TWO dewormers in him.  

And DiMethox.

So what did I do next?

Drenched him with 6ml of Red Cell and gave him a shot of Bo-Se, of course.  :/

Oh, and he'd just had his C/D-T booster the night before.

So in two days, he's had C/D-T, Cydectin Inj., Safe-Guard, DiMethox, Bo-Se, and Red Cell.

I figure he'll either be kicking ass and taking names today...or he'll be dead.

I dunno.




If he's still living, he'll get another 3mls of Safe Guard and 6mls of Red Cell again tonight.

I was just kinda surprised/aggravated that he went from 'meh, he's alright' to 'HOLY CRAP he's bad!' in the span of a day.  Not as if I didn't know that could happen...I did...I just didn't _expect_ it to happen.

He shoved his way through the adults and plowed into the grain I offered last night, and he's not _bottlejaw_ bad or anything, so I *think* he'll ultimately recover..  We shall see, I guess.

Daggone, though...  Just wasn't expecting to see that kinda change in a day, I guess.  :/


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## glenolam (Jul 16, 2010)

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is there a reason why you used Safeguard AND Cydectin?  

Don't they both treat _almost_ the same types of worms (I get that cydectin also treats mites and external parasites and safeguard really doens't)?  

Do you have a resistance to safeguard in your area?


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## cmjust0 (Jul 16, 2010)

glenolam said:
			
		

> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is there a reason why you used Safeguard AND Cydectin?
> 
> Don't they both treat _almost_ the same types of worms (I get that cydectin also treats mites and external parasites and safeguard really doens't)?
> 
> Do you have a resistance to safeguard in your area?


That's not a stupid question...it's actually a really good question.  So good, in fact, that I'm not sure I'm going to be able to answer it and have it make sense, given the fact that I wasn't even sure it made sense to do when I decided to do it.

My logic was something like this:

The Cydectin I gave was injected.  My experience with Cydectin injectable so far points to it being a fairly slow-acting dewormer, based on the fact that those I've injected have just sorta stopped whiting out, or maybe even whited out just a tad bit more -- but didn't pink up very quickly _at all_ either.  

There were several instances where I'd recheck lids a week or 10 days out and they'd look about the same, at which point I'd be thinking...this injectable doesn't work!  But then, ever so slowly, they'd start pinking back up.

So...with it being powerful, but seemingly slow, I kinda looked at this kid's eyelids and asked myself if he had a week or 10 days left in him for it to work.  More specifically, could he white out a bit more and still make it.

I wasn't sure.

To me, that meant I needed to go ahead and kill _some_ of those worms off now, just to give him some relief and maybe give the Cydectin a head start.

Now, to answer your other question, ya...our barberpoles are Safe Guard resistant.  Almost everyone's are, at this point.  I read a study summary not long ago which tested benzamidazole class dewormers (Safe Guard, Valbazen, Panacur, Synanthic -- "white" wormers) on a farm which was known to have had benzamidazole resistant parasites _at one time_, but which hadn't been treated with a benzamidazole class dewormer in _nine years_.

The worms were still resistant..  The conclusion of that study was that, for whatever reason, barberpoles pretty much don't revert to susceptibility, at least when it comes to benzamidazole class dewormers.

I suspect the same is true for other dewormers, which is scary...but I digress.

Now, having said that, I've read a number of studies dealing with dewormer resistance which indicate that if a wormer only kills a portion of the barberpoles, the whole population of parasites are considered resistant.  And that's been something I've read consistantly about different dewormers and different worms...which indicates to me that most dewormers are going to kill some worms.

In other words, even if your parasites are resistant to a particular dewormer, it's not as if that dewormer won't have _any_ effect..  It will; just not _much_.

Incidentally, that's just what I was looking for in this case.  If I can kill maybe 20...30...40% of this guy's barberpoles over the next three days, in conjunction with Red Cell and the Cydectin working in the background to kill greater numbers, I think I can get him worked out.

I _think_.

So, that was my thinking -- but I was still on the fence.

That's when it occurred to me that even if I'm dead wrong about the Cydectin Inj. working to slowly to save him -- which is to say, even if the Cydectin injectable kills everything all at once (including, perhaps, him) -- giving him Safe Guard on top of it would still only have amounted to throwing a match on a fire.  

The Cydectin, afterall, _was already in the goat._

So...he got Safe Guard.

Hope that makes sense.


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## glenolam (Jul 16, 2010)

Perfect sense.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 16, 2010)

> Perfect sense.


Yeah, well...let's hope so.  

I didn't have time to go check on him this morning (yep...one on the brink, and I'm just like _to heck with it._*) but I suspect he's still living.

If so, then tonight he'll get more Red Cell, more Safe Guard, more Dimethox, and probably a big shot of fortified b-complex just to piss him off.  


*That's sorta indicative of where I'm at with our goats right now.  We all have those days/weeks/months/years, I guess, but with everything else that's going on in life in general (job, job _worries_, finances, other farm stuff, weedy gardens, farmers' market obligations, etc), sometimes I get a little giddy at the idea of loading EVERYBODY up in a trailer and taking them to the frickin' sale barn.  

---------------------------------

OK, SO...literally, while I was typing out the above, my wife called from home.  She'd gone to the barn and done all the goat stuff, commented on how the bushhogging I'd done looked good, sprayed the recently disbudded kid's head with fly spray, everybody ate good, etc..  

I sheepishly asked....hows lil' wormy doing?

"Oh yeah...he seems fine.  He was actually having it out with Jenny's buckling, so he must be feeling pretty good."

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand now I like goats again.  

I swear to God, it's like being in an abusive relationship...things can be bad, bad, bad, bad, and then there's one little shining moment of OK-ness and you're _right back on board_.

Frickin goats.


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## glenolam (Jul 16, 2010)

So let's see what lil' wormy does for you tonight!  Sounds like he's taking you for a run!


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## ksalvagno (Jul 16, 2010)

Sounds like your little guy will be fine. Goats in worse shape than yours have made it through stuff. I know there are no guarantees in life but this doesn't sound life threatening.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 16, 2010)

At this point, it looks promising...but last night, not so much.  

The only reason I gave him another thought last night was because all the goats were milling around and he was just _standing there._  That's actually what caught my eye.

When one catches my eye like that on account of looking droopy, it's usually bad news.  

Hopefully by the last dose of Red Cell, I'll have a hard time running him down and holding him still.  There are few things I like to see any better than a formerly-sick goat who runs from me for the last of the meds.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 16, 2010)

Wife checked his eyelids before she left for work...still pretty white, she said.  I asked if they were as white as his eyeballs and she said "Pretty much."

Not that I was expecting them to pink up in 16hrs or whatever, but...miracles happen, I guess.

Overall, though, she said he seemed right as rain.  So that's a good thing.


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## glenolam (Jul 16, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Not that I was expecting them to pink up in 16hrs or whatever, but...miracles happen, I guess.


Well, you would _hope_ that since he was kind enough to go bad so quickly that he would _at least_ give you the consideration of getting better in that amount of time, wouldn't you?

You're right....darn goats!


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## Mea (Jul 16, 2010)

Totally agree about the abusive relationship analogy !!!      They are plotting agin us, yanno !!!


   (also when i first read the thread title... i thought..."oh dear... what part of his anatomy has he fried This time ?"     !!!     )


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## Roll farms (Jul 16, 2010)

Our one and only case of edema due to anemia (bottle belly instead of jaw) literally happened overnight.  She came in and ate on a Tuesday morning like normal, by Wednesday night she was down (and full of fluid).
Now, I hadn't checked her eyelids or anything, hadn't even heard of FAMACHA back then...but she never lost condition until the DAY she went down...and then went down FAST.

Point being....Barberpole worms are the devil.


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## doo dah (Jul 18, 2010)

How is he today?


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## DonnaBelle (Jul 18, 2010)

CM don't do computers on the week end.  He has one in front of his face I think 5 days a week.

He'll post tomorrow if he's not on vacation, but he usually lets us know if he's going to be gone a long time, like at Christmas.

DonnaBelle


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## doo dah (Jul 18, 2010)

Ahhh gotcha, thanks


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## cmjust0 (Jul 19, 2010)

Roll said:
			
		

> Point being....Barberpole worms are the devil.


Agreed x1000.  



			
				DonnaBelle said:
			
		

> CM don't do computers on the week end.






			
				doo dah said:
			
		

> How is he today?


So, he got Cydectin injected SQ...and he got Safe Guard for three days @ >3x the label dosage...and then yesterday, when he was done with the Safe Guard, he got a 2ml drench of Ivomec injectable.  And he's been on 6ml/day of Red Cell for like...I dunno, four days now?

He probably only weighs +/- 30lbs..    ..so, ya, he's had some stuff.  

He's still pretty pale, but there's obvious pink in his eyelids now.  He _feels_ better, though, I can tell you that much for sure.   

To have any pink at all, this quickly, is an improvement from where he was before, considering you couldn't really tell where the eyeball stopped and the eyelid started the night I checked him.

So, to that's good. 

FWIW...I went back and looked in my books to see when one of my adult does got a shot of Cydectin..  She was pretty pale, and she's a fairly big goat, but I followed the recommendation of the local university goat experts and gave her a label-dose of Cydectin (1ml/110lbs) on 6/28..

Days...days and days..._weeks_ go by and I hadn't seen much improvement.  Then, a little improvement -- but not much.  I checked her again last night and kinda thought....ok, yeah, you're looking pretty alright now -- for a mineral-sucking black goat in lactation w/ too little body condition in the midst of mid-July barberpole madness, anyway.  On the FAMACHA chart, she's now squarely in that "Borderline - Dose?" range, which is really only about a three-quarter step below optimal for my black nubians...they just never get better than that 2nd picture from the top, often running just a hair below it.*

For an adult...taking 3wks to show acceptable improvement is OK, I guess.  For a kid, though, that's just too long.  So, from now on, I'll be giving the Cydectin inj. orally for a quicker kill to anything under, say, 60lbs.  

We'll see what happens.  


* Really starting to question the 'universal' nature of FAMACHA..  I've personally witnessed -- with my own two eyes -- a goat go from FAMACHA 1/2 to *pure white* in the span of a couple of hours, and it literally had _nothing_ to do with worms.

It was dehydration, pure and simple.  

FAMACHA was more or less designed around meat goats.  Meat goats will always have a tendency to carry more condition than dairy goats, and condition allows them to carry more fluid.  More fluid means more ample hydration.  My thinking is that the more amply hydrated the goat, the better its FAMACHA scores are going to be.  So, unless your dairy goat is just obese...I'm thinking that FAMACHA might be a bit misleading.

That's just me thinking, though..  I'm also wondering whether FAMACHA scores would be affected by the time of day they're taken, the forage the animal's been on, quality of the animals' water source (self-rationing on nasty water), etc.  

Like, if you checked FAMACHA on a thin black nubian with a dietary scour grazing dry brush a half mile from a dirty water tank at 4pm in the scorching sun...versus...a big fat Boer doe laying in the barn with cud at 6am after coming off lush pasture and drinking about a half gallon of fresh, clean water the night before............I'm guessing you're gonna see a difference between that two that's _not necessarily related_ to worm load!

But again...that's just me thinking.


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## ksalvagno (Jul 19, 2010)

To completely rely on any one thing really isn't good. There are too many variables. Look at their eyelids and then take a fecal sample in/check fecal yourself. Then you got 2 things telling you what is going on. Got lots of money to spend? Throw in a blood workup. The list could go on.  

Plus, it really depends on each individual animal. One may be ghost white and still act fine while another is just a little lighter pink than normal and down.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 19, 2010)

True...and, no, I don't have a lot of money to spend.


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## jodief100 (Jul 19, 2010)

I had one do this to me last week.  My high % Boer was borderline on Sunday and 48 hours later.....Bottle Jaw!  Her eyes were alabaster white no pink at all.  She got Safeguard for three days, then Ivomectin.  Red Cell and probios every night and B shots every other day.  She is getting fiestier, had to chase her to dose her last night for the first time since this started.  I *think* I saw a little pink in the eyes last night but it may have been wishfull thinking.  She is about 80 lbs so I am going to let her go 2 more days than hit her with the Ivomectin again.  I have been cleaning out the stalls every night.

Does anyone have any suggestions for something to put down in the stalls to get rid of the squirmies?  I was thinking DE but I am a cynic about that.  I have a hard time trusting something that is touted as the miracle cure for everything with no studies to back it up. 

Mine go out in the very lightly stocked pastures in the evening when it is cool but they like to spend most of the day hanging out in the stalls.  

I was curious about the observations about variance in FMACHA scores based on conditions other than worms.  I just got the most recent report from the MD buck test and there are serveral bucks with 1 or 2 FMACHA scores but have FEC over 1500 and others with FMACHA of 3 with FEC under 100.  Obviously something else is at work here.

http://mdgoattest.blogspot.com/

Just a reminder, FMACHA is tool not a test.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 19, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> Does anyone have any suggestions for something to put down in the stalls to get rid of the squirmies?  I was thinking DE but I am a cynic about that.  I have a hard time trusting something that is touted as the miracle cure for everything with no studies to back it up.


They're not getting worms from the stall...that's not how it works.  They're getting worms from the pasture.  

Goat poops, and eggs are in the poop.  The eggs hatch, and the larvae feed on bacteria in the poop.  The larvae molt a few times and shimmy their way a few inches up a blade of grass..  Goat comes by, eats the grass and larvae, and the larvae go into the gut.  Larvae molt again (or don't...depending...more on that in a sec) into the adult (L4) stage, at which point they latch on to the lining of the abomasum, begin sucking blood, and cranking out eggs.....

And then the goat poops, and eggs are in the poop...vicious cycle.

So, unless your goats are grazing in their stalls...which is unlikely...they're getting worms off pasture.  



> Mine go out in the very lightly stocked pastures in the evening when it is cool but they like to spend most of the day hanging out in the stalls.


When it's cool...and moist...and the barberpole larvae can move freely in the grass.


As for the 'molt..or not' thing, barberpoles -- evil bastards that they are -- have the ability to go into sort of a suspended state called 'hypobiosis' where they just don't molt...or suck blood...or do much of anything, really, except wait for environmental conditions to improve to maximize their destruction.

Seriously...if it's too cold out, or too dry, or whatever, the barberpole larvae will just lay there and do NOTHING.  And when conditions for the surviveability of their larvae on pasture improves, they wake up, molt, and start sucking blood/cranking out eggs.

Combine that with an uncanny knack for building resistance to dewormers and it becomes patently obvious that they've been intentionally crafted out of pure, unadulterated evil.



> I was curious about the observations about variance in FMACHA scores based on conditions other than worms.  I just got the most recent report from the MD buck test and there are serveral bucks with 1 or 2 FMACHA scores but have FEC over 1500 and others with FMACHA of 3 with FEC under 100.  Obviously something else is at work here.
> 
> http://mdgoattest.blogspot.com/
> 
> Just a reminder, FMACHA is tool not a test.


Yep...FAMACHA is helpful, but it's not the be-all, end-all.

Unfortunately, thanks to hypobiosis..._neither are fecals._


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## jodief100 (Jul 19, 2010)

I suspect the problem is while the 20 goats have acess to 15 wonderful acres of weedy pasture, they like to graze the same 1/4 acre in front of the barn first, then they go down into creek bed and then out to the pasture.

Creatures of habit... GRRRRRRRRR.

I was just thinking since the stalls have the highest concentarion of poop, even though they aren't grazing in there it would keep them from spreading outward.  The stalls are 3 sided and completly open on the lee side, just a short worm crawl to the pasture.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 19, 2010)

They're lucky to make it the few inches up a wet blade of grass...  They're so tiny that a single droplet of water can contain dozens of them...with room to move around.  Practically microscopic.

As such, my understanding is that they don't really do lateral...only _vertical._


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 19, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> FAMACHA was more or less designed around meat goats.  Meat goats will always have a tendency to carry more condition than dairy goats, and condition allows them to carry more fluid.  More fluid means more ample hydration.  My thinking is that the more amply hydrated the goat, the better its FAMACHA scores are going to be.  So, unless your dairy goat is just obese...I'm thinking that FAMACHA might be a bit misleading.
> 
> That's just me thinking, though..  I'm also wondering whether FAMACHA scores would be affected by the time of day they're taken, the forage the animal's been on, quality of the animals' water source (self-rationing on nasty water), etc.


Actually, FAMACHA was originally done with sheep in South Africa.  Then they did more testing on sheep and goats and found it to be 92% effective.  The pictures on the chart are sheep pics.


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## glenolam (Jul 19, 2010)

What the heck is going on here!?!?!

One or two mentions of worms and BAM! My healthy goats get shot to sh*t!

OK, so maybe not THAT severe, but I did a more thorough look over of all my goats Friday night and I was concerned about my littlest doeling, Tinkerbell, who weighs all of 10-15# at 4 mos old.  Her twin sister is _at least_ 25# and just tanks her.

Everyone's eyelids were nice and salmon, save for Tinkerbell and Fairy Mary, the doeling pygmys.  

Fairy Mary was _OK_ but I hit her up with Ivomec anyway.

Tinkerbell - holy cow.  I never really had a problem so I never knew what going bad might look like.  I would have given her at best a 3, borderline 4.

She does have mites, too, so poor little gal is just hit from head to toe.

Luckily enough, though, everyone else looks free and clear of mites!

The only reason I never suspected anything was wrong was because since I brought them home 3 weeks ago she's been right on bouncing, jumping, eating, pooping - everything a "regular" kid should be doing.  They got their wormer as soon as I brought them home because I had no idea about their history, but sheesh!

Guess these threads are all coming up at a good time.....*or are they??*


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## cmjust0 (Jul 19, 2010)

atk said:
			
		

> Actually, FAMACHA was originally done with sheep in South Africa.  Then they did more testing on sheep and goats and found it to be 92% effective.  The pictures on the chart are sheep pics.


I was speaking to the way FAMACHA has been applied to goats in the US...  Probably shouldn't have said "designed"...implemented, perhaps?  Suggested?  Imported?

I dunno..  

Point being, here, it's was primarily meant to be a meat goat thang.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 19, 2010)

glenolam said:
			
		

> What the heck is going on here!?!?!
> 
> One or two mentions of worms and BAM! My healthy goats get shot to sh*t!


Worms are on the radar right now for the same reason why your healthy goats just suddently seem to have come down with worms....because it's July.

Barberpoles are on schedules, too..  There's a season for them, and we're right in the thick of it.  It's gonna get worse before it gets better.


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## Roll farms (Jul 19, 2010)

I went down w/ a bottle of Valbazen today (everyone's open) and checked alllll the eyelids.  One doe was WHITE, which doesn't surprise me b/c she's always 'the one' who seems to need dewormed.  

One kid was pale, but not scarily so, and 2 adults.  

I dosed all the kids (to be safe) and the 3 adults.  I will be checking weekly now until frost.

18 girls, 3 boys, and 2 visitors, I think is about where we are, numbers-wise.  
Also confirmed that both visitors are now bred and can go home.
I can collect my pimpin' fee and Chaos can go back to his bach quarters w/ Rider and Buddy.

To top it off, DNR dumped a fawn off on me and he's a bit pale too....he'll be getting the DiMethox regiment next time the kids are due, as well.

Summer means "never ending parasite patrol" here in IN....


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## cmjust0 (Jul 20, 2010)

My little dude's back up to about a FAMACHA 3 as of last night..  Pretty good improvement since, what...this past Thursday, was it?  Cydectin Inj., Safe-Guard (x3, x3), Ivomec drench, Bo-Se, and day after day of Red Cell..  

All the kids hate me right now, btw..  Two nights ago, I counted 17 drenches across like 8 kids, and last night was about 12 or 14 on six..  Dimethox, Safe Guard, Red Cell..  They run when they see me coming.  

I don't particularly enjoy it either, frankly...throwing hay after getting your hands all sticky with meds isn't much fun.  



Oh, and I learned something else...ya know how they cough and spit and hack and act like they're DYING when you give them a sulfa by mouth?  Well...I made the mistake of putting the plunger end of a syringe between my teeth to hold it AFTER having given several DiMethox drenches.....and there was apparently some DiMethox on the plunger.  

It actually is that gross.  Not an over-reaction at all.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 20, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> To top it off, DNR dumped a fawn off on me and he's a bit pale too....he'll be getting the DiMethox regiment next time the kids are due, as well.
> 
> Summer means "never ending parasite patrol" here in IN....


Last year, I saw MANY green puddles in the woods from the local whitetail population..  Now, I dunno if it was bugs or what, but if you looked closely at them (which I did...  ) you could see tiny holes in the poo..

Could have been something burrowing in, but for some reason, it looked more like something burrowing OUT.  

Gross...and disturbing.  

Kinda cool that they entrust you with orphaned fawns, though..  I've thought before that I might like to try my hand at raising a whitetail someday.  

How much different is it than raising a goat?  Probably not much, I'd guess..


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## Roll farms (Jul 20, 2010)

This fawn is the meanest by far that we've had....I'm looking forward to 'setting him free'...he comes at me on his back legs, hitting w/ his front legs, at bottle times.  I tried to get him to nurse from a bucket but he beat the tar out of me trying to get the bucket hung / was too interested in chewing me up to take the nipple....he knows milk flows out of me somehow, he wanted no part of the bucket.

I've raised 8, 2 didn't make it of the 8.  

One died from 'an internal anomoly' according to the post (figure that's why mama abandoned her, she knew something was wrong) and one of this year's died the day after they brought her to me...some nimwhit had raised her on human formula for 3 days, and she was near death when she got here.  I tried but couldn't turn her around.

I raise them JUST LIKE goats (feed and deworming / dimethox-wise) only I wean them at 10 weeks, then toss them out in the gen pop pasture for a month to get the hang of grazing in a somewhat 'safe' environment.....worm them one last time then set them loose at 14 weeks.

I don't vaccinate them....not part of the 'allowed' list of things.  Since they live with goats and are susceptable to the same parasites, they let me treat them for that.
(If I was licensed to raise / sell them, I'd be allowed to vaccinate...if I remember correctly from my research when I first got into it.)

I'll tell you one thing...even when raised w/ goats, the goats KNOW the fawns aren't goats....their 'littermates' will pick on them w/ no mercy, the adults butt the heck out of them....

What I really wish is that humans would LEAVE THEM ALONE when they 'find' them....usually mama's close by, if they'd walk on by they'd be fine...but no, they gotta drag them 15 miles away to some DNR station and 'turn them in' as 'abandoned'....grrrr.

But yeah...they do great on goat milk...that much I can tell you.

And yes, DiMethox is gross....I use the powder and when I mix it, the powder settles on everything and I've licked my lips and gotten a taste of it.....That's why I don't blame them one bit for not liking it.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 20, 2010)

Roll said:
			
		

> What I really wish is that humans would LEAVE THEM ALONE when they 'find' them....usually mama's close by, if they'd walk on by they'd be fine...but no, they gotta drag them 15 miles away to some DNR station and 'turn them in' as 'abandoned'....grrrr.


Agreed x10.  People don't realize, but mama leaves them in the weeds while she goes out to refill the tank, and then she comes back..  If those of us who raise goats have ever had occasion to let mama raise on on pasture practically from birth, the same thing happens...baby will lay down somewhere, and mama will roam around eating like crazy -- but if she's a good mama, she rarely goes very far.  

People probably also don't realize that if you can actualy _catch_ one, it's probably no more than a few days old.  By, what...probably a week or so, they're not snaggable anymore.

The only way I'd take one in is if I _knew_ mama was dead...like, a roadkill + screaming/hovering baby situation.  Or if I managed to screw up and kill a doe that had a new baby at her side..  Something like that..

A buddy of mine had some cell phone pictures of a HUGE buck his friend had raised on a bottle and was "keeping" as a pet (which, of course, was more or less up to the buck...they're mighty hard to fence in.   ).  It was about an 8pt or so, with an orange collar on...nose right up on the phone like "Hey, what's that?  Is that food?"


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## ksalvagno (Jul 20, 2010)

You don't worry about meningeal worm at all with your goats?

I have to admit I just look at deer as walking death for my alpacas. Even though I have been involved in rescue for many, many years and  have nursed animals back to health as well as foster, I just couldn't have a deer on this property, even if it was a baby. I know the deer walk by my property but they don't stop since there is nowhere for them to be.


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## Roll farms (Jul 20, 2010)

The dogs generally keep the deer away from the pastures by barking at them.
They tolerate, but just barely, my foundlings....who are often dewormed...so I don't worry about them w/ meningeal.

I lost a llama to it (M. worms) years ago, it was HORRIBLE.  We tried treating him, and I was even crazy enough to ponder making him a harness so he could stand and not get 'bedsores' and such....but finally they (dh and vet) talked me into putting him down.  He was such a noble, strong guy and he didn't deserve life in a harness so that *I* would feel better.

See, my vet at the time was a horse vet...she had told me to rotate dewormers w/ the llamas just like the horses....and do it every 3 mos...so I did...not realizing that meningeal worms even EXISTED...
And this was before I got the dogs b/c...Who needed guard dogs, I had guard llamas...and deer around the pasture never bothered me.

We tried DMSO on his shaved back, and then injecting ivermectin into his spine to kill the larvae, etc....he went down and never could get back up and Frosty (Oak Lane Frosty Mahogany, sired by a gorgeous Peruvian stud...) was lost to me.  I STILL mourn that boy.

Also, goats / sheep aren't as susceptible to them as camelids are, from everything I've read.  In fact, other than on websites, I can't say I've heard of a goat w/ it...but if I still had my llamas or alpacas, you can bet your bippy that I'd be most vigilant about it.

Why is it we always have to learn things the hard, terrible, awful way???


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## ksalvagno (Jul 20, 2010)

They have since found that Safeguard kills the larvae. You still give them an injection of Ivomec but you also give them 1cc per 7 lbs of Safeguard for 7 days.

M. Worm is horrible. A couple years ago, I took care of 2 females that got M worm. Luckily it was caught early and they got the high dose of Safeguard in them pretty quickly. The one almost completely recovered but the other one has some back end issues but can still get around. But she was in worse shape than the other one to begin with. 

Several years ago a friend of mine lost an alpaca to M worm. That was when we all found out about Safeguard and treating the alpaca quickly. Ever since then, if I see an alpaca limping on one of its back legs and I don't know why they are doing that, they get the safeguard treatment. So far I haven't had it but it is always a worry. My feeling is the worst I have done is wasted some wormer and they got a thorough worming. Luckily I have only done that to a couple of alpacas. 

Dr David Anderson did a study on M worm years ago and found that the slugs (which can eat the M worm) can travel pretty far. So even if deer don't come in or near your pasture, M worm can still get in with the slugs. Stinks! That is where I'm hoping my chickens will eat up those stupid slugs. I know guinea fowl are the best for that stuff but I just can't bring myself to get some of them. I have not heard anything good about them except that they are great at eating bugs and slugs.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 21, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I know guinea fowl are the best for that stuff but I just can't bring myself to get some of them. I have not heard anything good about them except that they are great at eating bugs and slugs.


I love my guineas!!!  They can be a tad loud at times, but they're not always loud, only when they're doing their "alarm" call.  They're really just clowns with feathers!!  They're always doing goofy things!     You should try a few.  The only thing you have to be careful of is making sure to keep them penned up for a few weeks so they don't run away right when you bring them home.  I learned that the hard way, but luckily mine came back....three weeks later!


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## Roll farms (Jul 21, 2010)

We have guineas coming out our ears....
I honestly don't hear them anymore.  You become immune.


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## glenolam (Jul 21, 2010)

I will say that our guineas are doing an awesome job of controlling ticks and bugs - we haven't yet treated our dogs/cats with any flea or tick prevention and we've only pulled 4 ticks off the dogs.  Our guineas are starting to walk further into the woods, which is most likely where our dogs got the ticks from, so we're hoping it gets better from here on out.  Our neighbor who has massively expensive bird dogs has even complimented that his dogs haven't had ANY ticks, and he thinks it's because our guineas are walking on to his property, too.

On the other hand, though, ours are stupid.  If they don't stick together, one always gets "lost" on the other side of the field fence, and instead of walking through (because they can fit) or jumping over, they just pace back and forth calling to their friends.....


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## jodief100 (Jul 21, 2010)

So how many gunieas would I need for 30 acres? Do you have to feed them anything else or do they get enough free ranging?  Will my LGD's eat them like they did a chicken last week?  Or I think they did, one is missing and there were feathers in Snowy's hidey hole in the barn.  She is terrified of thunder storms so she has dug a cave under the hay rack and crawls in it to hide from them.  

My doe with bottle jaw is still hanging in there.  She is more active and getting harder to catch but her jaw is still full of fliud and eyes also still white though now a very faint touch of pink.  Should I keep giving her the red cell every day and B complex every other until it goes away?  She had 3 days of Safeguard and two doses of Ivermectin 5 days apart.


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## glenolam (Jul 21, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> So how many gunieas would I need for 30 acres?


We have 8 guineas for 28 acres - they're just over a year old and now are going further into the woods because they feel more comfortable.  They usually come home everynight around dusk, except for the times one or two get "stuck" behind the cow fence.



> Do you have to feed them anything else or do they get enough free ranging?


We still feed ours chicken pellets, but that's because they live with the chickens and ducks (their choice, too, even though we built the guineas a really nice house of their own) and everyone gets fed in the evenings when they come home.



> Will my LGD's eat them like they did a chicken last week?


I don't have a LGD so can't help you there....but my two "regular" dogs now leave the birds alone.  When the birds are chicks/keets, the dogs only _wish_ they could have one to "play" with, but we make sure that doesn't happen. 



> My doe with bottle jaw is still hanging in there.  She is more active and getting harder to catch but her jaw is still full of fliud and eyes also still white though now a very faint touch of pink.  Should I keep giving her the red cell every day and B complex every other until it goes away?  She had 3 days of Safeguard and two doses of Ivermectin 5 days apart.


I would think you should continue with the B complex and red cell.  Probios would be good to add as well.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 21, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> My doe with bottle jaw is still hanging in there.  She is more active and getting harder to catch but her jaw is still full of fliud and eyes also still white though now a very faint touch of pink.  Should I keep giving her the red cell every day and B complex every other until it goes away?  She had 3 days of Safeguard and two doses of Ivermectin 5 days apart.


I'd keep up the Red Cell, personally.  That's not to say it's the right thing to do...but it's what I'd do.  Reason being, I'd be more concerned about the edema than the possibility of O/Ding her on Red Cell (or, rather, the components of Red Cell like copper, selenium, etc)..  

I'd also hit her with a stronger dewormer pretty soon..  Cydectin, probably....or Levasole, if you can find it.  You've probably taken care of quite a few worms at this point, but there's widespread resistance to ivermectin and benzamidazole-class dewormers in barberpole...which is to say, she still has worms.  Not as many, of course, but she still has them.

If it were me, I'd giver her a few days to plug the holes she's got weeping in her abomasum right now after the deworming she's already gotten, and then use the stronger dewormer.

That's me, though.


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## Roll farms (Jul 21, 2010)

Speaking of Levasole, CM...there's an ad in DGJ for a place that says, "Looking for Lavasole? We have it!" and it made me think of you, lol.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 21, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Speaking of Levasole, CM...there's an ad in DGJ for a place that says, "Looking for Lavasole? We have it!" and it made me think of you, lol.


It wasn't me...but I have an idea of who it might be.

A while back, a goat buddy of mine was telling me about this place in...Oklahoma, maybe?...where they were making their own levasole.  He said they got SHUT DOWN at some point, he reckoned by the FDA/USDA/etc.  His understanding was that they got in serious, serious trouble for it.  He was kinda bummed out about it because he used to buy from them.

Well, he was at the ABGA Nationals (or whatever it was) in Louisville and saw a flyer for Levasole...he told me that he actually thought it was wrong, like someone must have misprinted a flyer from last year or something weird like that.  He blew it off, because he recognized the name and knew the people weren't making it anymore.

When he got home, one of his friends was like "So, did you buy levasole while you were there?"

Come to find out..._they're at it again!_   

Betcha it's the same folks you saw advertised..  I dunno how legal the stuff is, but if it IS the same folks...the guy I know actually knows someone else who bought it, is using it, and it appears to be the real deal.

Sooooo...just sayin'.  Dunno how legal it is, but pharmaceutically speaking -- if it's the same folks -- it seems legit.  



Actually...if you've never used Levasole on your property or have reason to believe that your barberpoles would be HIGHLY -- like, almost 100% -- susceptible to it...do us a favor and buy some.  

I'm planning a little somethin' somethin' that involves the use of Levasole on goats that "don't need dewormed" and could use a little dual verification that my thinking is correct.

If I'm right, it would amount to a barberpole holocaust.  Like, 99% eradication not only from the goats, but _from the premises_.

You in?


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## jodief100 (Jul 21, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I'd also hit her with a stronger dewormer pretty soon..  Cydectin, probably....or Levasole, if you can find it.  You've probably taken care of quite a few worms at this point, but there's widespread resistance to ivermectin and benzamidazole-class dewormers in barberpole...which is to say, she still has worms.  Not as many, of course, but she still has them.


That is what I was considering.  Continue with the Red Cell and B-Complex and then hit her with Cydectin in another 5 days.  Wanted to see if someone else agreed.  My local feed store has Levasole in tablets for sheep.  Can you give a goat those?  Of course he has them in an unlabeled bottle and sells it by the tablet so it might not be a good idea in general.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 21, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> My local feed store has Levasole in tablets for sheep.  Can you give a goat those?  Of course he has them in an unlabeled bottle and sells it by the tablet so it might not be a good idea in general.


_*BUY THEM!!!!!!*_

When they ask how many you want, your response should be "All of them!"

I was in the exact same spot a while back, and that's exactly what I did.  They told me they had 87.  I bought all 87.  They thought I was nuts, because they did sell them by the tablet...couldn't figure out why I could possibly need 87 sheep boluses...

I suspect they cursed me pretty good when they went to reorder, though.  

Seriously, they're like gold for goat people..  I don't remember what I paid, but I could probably triple my investment at this point if I actually wanted to sell them..  

The goat dosage on the 'sheep oblets' are 1.5x the labeled dose for sheep..  I think the label says 1 oblet per 50lbs, but you'd give it at 1 oblet per 33lbs.  

You can O/D on levasole, though...accurate weights and dosing are important!

If your barberpoles have never seen Levasole before, it'll achieve pretty much a 100% kill...  Now that I'm thinking of it, I might actually go with Cydectin first and then wait some more before doing the Levasole on the bottlejaw case..._it's that strong._ 

Seriously, though...GO BUY IT!  Like, right now!  Why are you still reading this?!?!?  Go!  Go get it before someone else discovers it and buys it all right out from under you!


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## jodief100 (Jul 21, 2010)

My concern was in an unlabeled bottle, how do I know it is REALLY Levasole?  I also wasn't familiar enough with it to know if it came in tablets or how to dose.  Do I just force 1 1/2 pills down their throats with a pill pusher that I use for the dogs?

This was also two weeks ago I saw it.  I guess I am stopping on my way home from work. So much for going to the yarn store tonight.  Hope they still have some.  Ill let you know.  I think they wanted like $1 something each; maybe?  

They have been using Prohibit drench at the MD buck test, wonder where they got that?


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## cmjust0 (Jul 21, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> My concern was in an unlabeled bottle, how do I know it is REALLY Levasole?


Feedstores selling them individually is apparently pretty common, so that doesn't strike me as odd..  Plus, if it's a feedstore...those guys usually don't like making enemies.

If you want, you could buy one and post a picture of it here; I have the exact same thing at home, so I could probably verify whether or not it _looks_ right..

EDIT:

Ok, so I find a picture...sorta.  You can see the oblets laying beside the bottle here.  That's what they look like.







They're big, yellow pills with a score line so they can be broken in half.  Chalky, too...no slick coating on them.  

So if the guy hands you a big chalky yellow pill that's scored in the middle....prolly Levasole.  



> I also wasn't familiar enough with it to know if it came in tablets or how to dose.  Do I just force 1 1/2 pills down their throats with a pill pusher that I use for the dogs?


Negative on the pill pusher...these things are big ol' horse pills.  Like, huge.

What I use is this bolus gun from valley vet supply.  

I highly recommend a good bolus gun for anyone's goat cabinet, and this is an EXCELLENT bolus gun.  



> This was also two weeks ago I saw it.  I guess I am stopping on my way home from work. So much for going to the yarn store tonight.  Hope they still have some.  Ill let you know.  I think they wanted like $1 something each; maybe?


I think that's what they were asking on a per-bolus basis when I bought mine, but since I bought the whole thing, they actually figured the whole bottle price and knocked 13% off...since it was only 87% full.

Like I said, though...they thought I was nuts.  



> They have been using Prohibit drench at the MD buck test, wonder where they got that?


I know of some university field tests around here where levasole was being used, and it was Prohibit as well...but they're out of it now.  I know where they're getting their "new" levasole, and it's...well, it might be a little shady.  



I suspect there are caches of the name-brand stuff here and there being hoarded and/or ferreted-out by people who make their living raising goats or educating about the practice of goatkeeping, but the name-brand stuff like Levasole, Tramisole, Prohibit, and so forth isn't in production anymore.  If they're using name-brand levamisole products right now, they'll run out eventually.


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## jodief100 (Jul 28, 2010)

Update- My bottle jaw doe has PINK eyes.  It is light pink but definitely pink.  I hit her with Cydectin on Sunday after 2 doses of Ivermectin last week 5 days apart and 3 days of Safeguard before that.  She is getting feisty and head butting the other goats again.  I am just letting her go for now and am checking her eyes every night to ensure they are getting darker.  I dont think we are out of the woods but it has turned the corner.  It has been two weeks since she went bottle jaw.  

CM- how did your white eyed goat fare?  Thank you for all your help.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 28, 2010)

He's crazy...that's how he is.  

Something I noticed -- and something that makes sense, now that I think about it -- is that when he was still kinda down with worms, he'd just hang back with the adults and graze while the other kids ran laps and acted like nutty little goats..

Seemed content to do it, too..  Not depressed or lethargic, necessarily...almost "mature" if that makes sense.  At first, I kinda thought maybe that's why he got the way he got -- because he seemed to spend more time consuming forage than his kidly counterparts..  That sorta made sense to me, I guess, but...well, I didn't really know.  Just something I noticed and pondered for about 38 seconds..

However!...now that he's actually got some _red blood cells_ in his body and can carry a little oxygen, he's out there kicking it up with the rest of the kids...butting heads, running wind sprints for no apparent reason, jumping up/down/up/down/up on the giant dead tree..  In short, he's being a kid goat.  



Just an observation..  So, yeah...he's good.  

Glad your doeling's improved so much!  You did a great job with her!


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