# Registration - ADGA



## ThreeBoysChicks (Dec 16, 2011)

So if I want to register a goat, what do I have to do?

Do I have teo be come an ADGA member in order to register a goat?

Do I have to have a Heard name in order to register a goat?

Says I need to tatoo before I can register, is that correct?

Would like to register Nina as as a Nubian but her parents were not registered, seems like this can be done, is that corect?  How difficult is this to do?


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## currycomb (Dec 16, 2011)

your best bet would be to contact ADGA. there is something about registering on apperance. but you will have to have some other people see her and judge her as to type, etc. why are you wanting to register her?. you won't have to join the ADGA, but the cost is the same, so you might as well become a member. they will issue you a herd number to use when you tatoo your goats. you can pick a herd name, as long as it is one no one else has. they are very good to work with, and can answer all your questions.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 16, 2011)

You actually pick the herd name and tattoo id and you have to find out if it is available. I would contact ADGA about registering an totally unregistered goat. I'm not sure about that. It is best just to join. The fees they charge non-members is significantly higher and it works out to be cheaper to join.


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## ThreeBoysChicks (Dec 16, 2011)

Well I called ADGA - Thanks for the suggestion ksalvagno!

Do I need to be member to register a goat?  NO - but it makes sense to because the cost to register is less if you are a member.

Do I need to have a Heard Name to resigster a goat?  NO - As a member, it costs $15 to request a heard name that stays as long as you are a member.  $100 for a heardname that lasts forever.

Do I need to have a Tatoo assigned and the goat tatooed to reguster?  YES - If your unregistered goat does not have a tatoo, you can use your own to register her.

How to register a goat whose parents were not registered?  Only does (unregistered) can be registered as "Native on Appearance (NOA)".  They must have a tatoo.  Their registration would list Mom and Dad as unknown or unregistered and the application must be accompanied with a "Native on Appearance (NOA)" form which has been filled out by a ADGA member signifying that your animal conforms to the breed standards.  Assuming all that works, she would be registred 0%.  Her off spring if bred to a Registered Buck would be 50%, etc.  She would be generation one.  After three generations the offspring would be registered 100% American Nubian.

I think I am going to do it, if for no other reason to save on the cost of registering down the road.


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## ThreeBoysChicks (Dec 16, 2011)

So with that said, do you think I will have a probelm getting someone to sign that Nina conforms to the Standard.


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## Queen Mum (Dec 16, 2011)

My answer would be a resounding - NO PROBLEM THERE!


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## ksalvagno (Dec 16, 2011)

She looks like a Nubian to me.


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## daisychick (Dec 16, 2011)

I am trying to do the same thing with my 2 does.   I have to find someone who is a member to sign my N.O.A papers and then I am good to go.   For me finding someone to sign the papers has been the hard part.  :/


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## Mamaboid (Dec 16, 2011)

Don't have anything to add about registration, just wanted to say what a beautiful animal that is.  I love her color.  She looks so proud.  Just gorgeous!!!


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## currycomb (Dec 16, 2011)

nice roman nose, good length to her ears, and seems to have enough space behind for a good udder. cannot see any leg deformities, so i see no problem with someone not wanting to sign the form for you. overall a pretty nice goat


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## beckyburkheart (Feb 26, 2012)

This is an old thread, but i guess it will pop to the top so i'll use it rather than starting a new one. 

three years ago, we bought three 'registerable' lamancha does, with signed paperwork and a handful of other goats.  over the last there years, we've decided to go to a purebred lamancha herd.  i started to send in their papers last year, but the convolutions gave me a headache and so i set it aside. 

we bought a registered buck and now have 20-something mostly registrable kids, but i'm finding the ADGA so difficult to work with that i'm *that close* to tossing all the registrations.

i'm not a stupid person, not by any means, and i can deal with a lot of paperwork, but i get frustrated trying to jump through all their hoops. 

and on top of that, they sent my registration paperwork back with a note that my cc is invalid (it's not, i used it to buy dinner last night), they returned my buck's transfer (undone) with no comments and "error sheets" on my does, with comments about missing signatures and such BUT THEY KEPT ALL MY ORIGINAL PAPERWORK, INCLUDING BILL OF SALES and all my registration paperwork. 

those girls are not tattooed.  I talked to them on the phone about it and they said they would give me numbers to use on them since the breeder hadn't done it before they sold them, and they aren't my breeding so shouldn't have my number. .. etc .... 

it took awhile since i sent everything in, and i called last week to check to see if there were any problems and they said they were in process and that they would call me with any questions or problems .... and then i get it all back in the mail (everything except my originals)

i have nearly 30 more that need to be registered, two years of babies and grandbabies, and i am SERIOUSLY reconsidering if i want to be in bed with this organization.  They very clearly have shown me through their actions that they are not supportive of new members.  I have EVERY respect for detail and precision and having things in order.  (i raise arabian horses, so you can imagine), but these people do not seem in the least bit interested in even taking my money. 

is there another org?  i would walk away from what i've already spent with adga in memberships, farm name, etc.. if there was someone else to go with .. 

is this typical of the org?  is there a secret handshake that i'm missing? or is it just my bad karma or bad registration juju?  

this isn't meant to be a rant, but i've put a lot into getting my herd transitioned to a more professional, quality herd (as per my other thread, i have the testing, etc, in progress) ... but i am at my wits end with this org. 

any words of wisdom?


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Feb 26, 2012)

I found that emailing them and then getting the email address of one person to talk to and ask questions etc was VERY helpful. 



BTW  Ed, do you still need somebody to sign off on Nina?  I have to come over to Frederick in the next week or three and can swing by Thurmont on my way in or out.


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## beckyburkheart (Feb 26, 2012)

SuburbanFarmChic said:
			
		

> I found that emailing them and then getting the email address of one person to talk to and ask questions etc was VERY helpful.


i'm going to have to call them tomorrow and start going through all this again.  i like your idea of having a specific contact person to work with.  i'll ask them if they can help me in that way.

I just hope that that they have all my original paperwork on my does on file and that it hasn't been lost or thrown away.


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## Stacykins (Feb 26, 2012)

beckyburkheart said:
			
		

> BUT THEY KEPT ALL MY ORIGINAL PAPERWORK, INCLUDING BILL OF SALES and all my registration paperwork.


Next time make copies and send those instead, keep the originals close and safe. Scanners are pretty cheap nowadays, and you can copy a document on the scanner, and then save that on your computer. Print out copies as needed while the originals are filed in whatever system you use for paperwork. Or you can make copies the old fashioned away, like at the library or wherever else a copier is available for use.


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## Roll farms (Feb 26, 2012)

I've probably registered 200 animals w/ the ADGA over the course of 12 yrs and only gotten 2 packets back, when I first started doing it.

I don't find them exactly warm and fuzzy and 'eager' to help, but they'be assisted me when I needed it.   Haven't gotten anything back in a long time, they finally got me trained.


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## beckyburkheart (Feb 26, 2012)

i know it was stupid to send originals.  my scanner is down and with everything that's always going on around here, i kept putting off getting the copies.  i'm really regretting it now.

i don't need them to be warm and fuzzy.   ... but i would think that if they have a packet of registrations with a handful of problems with a new membership number that at least they would do something besides stuff it all back in the envelope and return it all.  I called on Thursday to check and they told me they'd call about any problems.  ...and they didn't. 

On the tattoos on the purchased does.  How am i supposed to do that?  they said they would give me a number and they didn't.  they just rejected the registrations.  what's my next step on that?


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Feb 26, 2012)

I similarly never mail in originals. I fax everything. I don't own a fax machine, I just do it when I can get in to Office Max or Staples or have the husband do it from work.


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## beckyburkheart (Feb 26, 2012)

yeah.  i think i just kept thinking ... it really can't be this hard ... *head desk*


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## Roll farms (Feb 26, 2012)

The USBGA (boer goat assoc.) IS warm and fuzzy...to the point that some of them will talk your ear off.  
So when I do have to deal w/ ADGA, it's a bit of a culture shock for me.

Hopefully getting a 'go to' person to explain what they want will make it easier.

There is another goat registry (AGS, I think it is) but I'm not a member / can't help you there.  
Not sure if not having ADGA papers would hurt you, some breeders use only ADGA so would want their goats ADGA registered.


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## beckyburkheart (Feb 26, 2012)

The arabian horse association isn't warm and fuzzy and i don't like a lot of what they do, but they are basically efficient with their current day registrations.  i've been registering horses with them for nearly 30 years and the occasional problem causes the registration to be held in pending and a letter is sent out explaining the issue and how to resolve it.  (they actually charge you to cancel a registration which i had to go through when I lost a filly last year  )

so, probably "culture shock" is a good way to put it.  i'm honestly feeling very unwelcome over there. 

(my dad has boer goats and most of his aren't registered, but he has nothing but good to say about that org)



> There is another goat registry (AGS, I think it is) but I'm not a member / can't help you there.
> Not sure if not having ADGA papers would hurt you, some breeders use only ADGA so would want their goats ADGA registered.


i'll check them out.  the problem, as you mention, is "what most breeders go with". and my currently foundation stock is adga registered. 

what about showing, does it matter which assoc you're with? or do they each have their own circuit?  what about local and county livestock shows?


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 27, 2012)

Becky, I totally know what you mean about ADGA being a little less than perfect with their registration process.  I have had numerous error reports for a handful of animals.  Part of the trouble was that my doe wasn't registered until I bought her...her previous owners wait until the very last second to register any animal...so it always seems more difficult than when you're registering an animal and you own both parents.  

I would send my cell #, email, AND fax # on paperwork asking them to PLEASE call me if there were any problems /w the applications, instead of wasting time and money mailing back the error report.  They NEVER did that...they just went ahead and mailed back the error report instead of calling or emailing so I could remedy the problem.  They never got my first membership application, so I did a second one, then they processed BOTH of them (major pain).  It just seemed like there was always a problem w/ the applications.   Now that all my animals are finally registered, it should be much easier for me to just do all the paperwork (instead of relying on another party to supply info).  

Just stick with it...it really does make your animals more saleable, and it does get easier.


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## beckyburkheart (Feb 27, 2012)

thanks.  it's good to know i'm not crazy.  ...going out to check the babies and i'll be calling them when i get back.


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## beckyburkheart (Feb 27, 2012)

ok.  we were on the phone for a long time but i think that most of the stuff is worked out.  paid over the phone so i have a nice credit balance and a packet ready to mail back that has been gone through step by step.

one thing i was confused about was the three levels of registration.  grade, american and purebred.   i know i've done horses for too long and am stuck there and still trying to transition.

i'm still kinda sorting it out in my head.  i was confused on the difference between grade and american, and i'm not sure i have it completely figured out, but i'll go back to the website this afternoon. 


i know that bucks have to be purebred.
...so for does.  
a purebred and an unknown produce a grade *if it matches type*
grade 1st generation, bred to a purebred, produces grade 2nd generation, bred to a purebred produces "american". 

at what point does the american bred to a purebred produce purebred.

what is the difference in registration between unknown and unregistered and registered of a different breed. 


... so if a breeding my purebred lamancha buck to an unregistered nubian doe produces an elf eared doe, is she registrable as  a "grade" lamancha?


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## ksalvagno (Feb 27, 2012)

If I understand correctly, American can never be purebreed. Only purebreed can be purebreed.

I really don't understand the whole registering of a non-registered parent, if you can do it. But if you breed a Nubian to a LaMancha, then it would be an Experimental. But not sure if both parents have to be registered or not.


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## hcppam (Feb 27, 2012)

I just got my membership And I wont even have my 2 girls until June. LOL


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## beckyburkheart (Feb 27, 2012)

at least you're doing it right instead of like me trying to play catch up *sigh*


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## ksacres (Mar 4, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> If I understand correctly, American can never be purebreed. Only purebreed can be purebreed.
> 
> I really don't understand the whole registering of a non-registered parent, if you can do it. But if you breed a Nubian to a LaMancha, then it would be an Experimental. But not sure if both parents have to be registered or not.


La Mancha is the only herdbook that is still "open"-meaning you can breed up all the way to PB status. 

As for the "grade/experimental" problem:  for the particular problem asked about, it would be best to NOA the Nubian, and the resulting offspring (doelings only) would be considered grade experimentals.  If you don't NOA the doe, they can only be grade (from the registered buck side) and you will run into problems if anyone checks too closely, because grade animals MUST meet the standard for whatever breed they are recorded under (in this case La Mancha, and the problem could be strong roman nose or ears too long), whereas experimentals (since by definition are a MIX of at least two breeds) are exempted from this rule.

Hope this makes sense.  I've never had any issues with ADGA, so long as the rules are followed and all the blanks are filled out.


Someone else was talking about tattooes-ADGA guidelines clearly state that "all animals shall receive a PERMANANT tattoo PRIOR to registration".  If they weren't tattooed or you left that part blank, they will not register your animals.  The tattoo is the permanant physical mark to distinguish individual goats, similar to ear notching or tagging in other species.  Each breeder is assigned a personal tattoo (mine is CK) for ONLY THEM TO USE, and in the other ear, or side of the tail (in the case of La Manchas) goes the designated year letter (2012 is "C") followed by the sequence of birth.  For example, the first kid born in my heard would have been tattooed CK C1, then CK C2, and so on.  This assures that no two animals in a 20 year period ever have an identical tattoo (some year letters aren't used, like Q, because they are too difficult to distinguish from other letters).

Any animal bred by someone not having a herdname is given the herdname "The"  as in "The Beautiful Lark" or whatever.  If you did not own the mother of the animal at the time she was bred, YOU ARE NOT THE BREEDER AND CANNOT USE YOUR HERDNAME!!

It can be overwhelming, but honestly, way back when I first became a member (1997), I read the ENTIRE guidebook cover to cover.  It saved me a lot of hassle, and I know the rules better than some employees...


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## Roll farms (Mar 4, 2012)

I've been trying to explain to someone for 3 days that I cannot do an NOA for their 'Nubian' goat.

ADGA says, "NO" non-dairy animals in the pedigree.  
The owner told me the goat had a boer grandfather.

YES, she LOOKS Nubian.  But since they told me she's part boer, I can't in good conscience sign the paper.

:/


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## ThreeBoysChicks (Mar 4, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I've been trying to explain to someone for 3 days that I cannot do an NOA for their 'Nubian' goat.
> 
> ADGA says, "NO" non-dairy animals in the pedigree.
> The owner told me the goat had a boer grandfather.
> ...


Yeah, that is pretty clearly stated when you talk to ADGA.  I had asked about Daisy which is Apline / Boer.  They said, no way.  And honestly, if you look at Daisy, the boar is pretty obvious.  Big butt, big chest, brown head, white body.  Yeap, there is boar in there.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 4, 2012)

my problem/confusion with the tattoos was that i bought "registrable" does, with all the paperwork, but not tattooed by that breeder.  since i wasn't the breeder, i didn't know about useing my herd name or tattoo.  i asked the registry about it and they said they would give me a 'different' tattoo number for those does. but then just rejected the registration outright instead.  we have since gotten it worked out, but it was a very much more difficult process than it needed to be.



> As for the "grade/experimental" problem:  for the particular problem asked about, it would be best to NOA the Nubian, and the resulting offspring (doelings only) would be considered grade experimentals.  If you don't NOA the doe, they can only be grade (from the registered buck side) and you will run into problems if anyone checks too closely, because grade animals MUST meet the standard for whatever breed they are recorded under (in this case La Mancha, and the problem could be strong roman nose or ears too long), whereas experimentals (since by definition are a MIX of at least two breeds) are exempted from this rule.
> 
> Hope this makes sense.  I've never had any issues with ADGA, so long as the rules are followed and all the blanks are filled out.


I still have two does that i liked enough to keep in my program in spite of not being lamancha.  five actually.  a nubian and her daughter and granddaughter (all full bred but not registered.  the previous buck i had was a full bred but not registered nubian) and a doe that i think is a saneen/nubian cross and her 3/4 nubian daughter.


i've read the rule book and i'll go back over it again, but i'm missing something about the benefits of NOA and experimental.  if i can get my nubian does an NOA registration, then those babies would be experimental rather than g-registered lamancha? than still breeding to a registered lamancha buck, do they breed back to "american" and 'purebred" the same way in the same percents?

...  my FIRST doe was a 3/4 nubian boer cross and even her nubian bred daughter, linebred back to her nubian sire produced a boer looking doe...  i can see why they wouldn't allow that breeding back in a dairy herd, it comes through very strongly.


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## ksacres (Mar 4, 2012)

beckyburkheart said:
			
		

> I still have two does that i liked enough to keep in my program in spite of not being lamancha.  five actually.  a nubian and her daughter and granddaughter (all full bred but not registered.  the previous buck i had was a full bred but not registered nubian) and a doe that i think is a saneen/nubian cross and her 3/4 nubian daughter.
> 
> 
> i've read the rule book and i'll go back over it again, but i'm missing something about the benefits of NOA and experimental.  if i can get my nubian does an NOA registration, then those babies would be experimental rather than g-registered lamancha? than still breeding to a registered lamancha buck, do they breed back to "american" and 'purebred" the same way in the same percents?
> ...


If you bred the NOA doe to the La Mancha buck, the babies would be "grade experimental 50% La Mancha".  But the babies would not be required to meet the La Mancha standard because of the NOA Nubian.

If you bred the Nubian (unrecorded) to the La Mancha buck, the babies would be "Grade La Mancha 50%".  But the babies WOULD be required to meet the La Mancha standard.

If you keep breeding the babies back to PB La Manchas, eventually you will get purebreds.  Or you can breed the other way to get American Nubians, it will just take one generation longer since the first (NOA) won't count towards your percentage.


Any goat with KNOWN meatgoat parentage (and this is any:  pygmy, boer, kiko, fainter, etc) is disallowed from recordation, be it NOA/NOP/Grade whatever.


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## ksacres (Mar 4, 2012)

beckyburkheart said:
			
		

> my problem/confusion with the tattoos was that i bought "registrable" does, with all the paperwork, but not tattooed by that breeder.  since i wasn't the breeder, i didn't know about useing my herd name or tattoo.  i asked the registry about it and they said they would give me a 'different' tattoo number for those does. but then just rejected the registration outright instead.  we have since gotten it worked out, but it was a very much more difficult process than it needed to be.


This is a good lesson for everyone, if you buy from a breeder, be sure they abide by ADGA's "Recommended Trade Practices".  This includes tattooes, registration paperwork, bill of sale, etc.  If they can't or won't do those things for you, be wary.  It's a reasonable expectation that breeders will prevent this nightmare from happening to unsuspecting buyers.  And it keeps first time goat owners (or first time "registered" goat owners) from getting overwhelmed and getting out of goats.

All of my kids (unless I sold them specifically as "unregistered") were tattooed, had either their registration certificate or the signed and completed application, and a bill of sale listing the specific goat and dam/sire information.  Some people wanted "unregistered" goats for a discount, I sold a very very few that way, with the express understanding that those goats would never be registered.  Usually it was a "family milker" type deal.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 4, 2012)

> This is a good lesson for everyone, if you buy from a breeder, be sure they abide by ADGA's "Recommended Trade Practices".  This includes tattooes, registration paperwork, bill of sale, etc.  If they can't or won't do those things for you, be wary.  It's a reasonable expectation that breeders will prevent this nightmare from happening to unsuspecting buyers.  And it keeps first time goat owners (or first time "registered" goat owners) from getting overwhelmed and getting out of goats.


and i think in my case i was ... not overly confident, but perhaps not concerned enough ... or at least had a false sense of security since  I've dealt so much with horse registrations over the years.  i didn't ask enough of the right kinds of questions.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 4, 2012)

ksacres said:
			
		

> beckyburkheart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i don't think any of mine would have trouble meeting the breed standard, mainly the straight profile and the length of ear, but I think i'm going to look into getting the nubian's NOA, just so i'll have an additional generation documented.  if anything, the nubian's i have seem to be rather straight-faced so maybe i lucked into some poor-standard nubians that are making nice lamancha crosses for me! ???


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## ksacres (Mar 5, 2012)

beckyburkheart said:
			
		

> and i think in my case i was ... not overly confident, but perhaps not concerned enough ... or at least had a false sense of security since  I've dealt so much with horse registrations over the years.  i didn't ask enough of the right kinds of questions.


I think education for new owners is part and parcel of selling dairy goats.  The breeders should be filling you with information before, during, and after the transaction.  This is how we grow and make connections.  I have always prided myself on "service after the sale" and enjoy answering questions and offering advice for people new to goats (or just dairy goats).  A well organized breeder will have everything you need ready to go, and sign everything over after the money changes hands.


For the experimentals, I raised Nubians and La Manchas.  With that cross, nine times out of ten I would get elf ears on the first cross.  La Mancha ears are a very strong trait.  But I still just like to have everyone with their own records.  After all, ADGA will do the work (as far as keeping online records) for you as far as registered progeny, heritability, milk records, etc.  I'm a big fan of the ADGA website.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 6, 2012)

ksacres said:
			
		

> beckyburkheart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got very few ears even on some 3/4 linebred nubians.  other than my saanen/nubian cross and the fullblood nubians, i only have one with floppy ears.

other than generally correct conformation, where i can find info on the breed specifics?  adga talks mainly about the profile and the ears.  are there other main differences between the breeds such as size or body type or are the dairy breeds more similar than not?


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## ksacres (Mar 15, 2012)

You can find the general breed standards here:  http://www.adga.org/index.php?optio...tbreedstand&catid=909:catadgagoats&Itemid=131

Hopefully that comes through.  

Other than that, you just need an ADGA member to look them over, and sign the form letter from ADGA's website.  Mostly, things that would preclude registration are the dq's, which are general, not breed specific.   Such things as extra teats, total blindness, disabling lameness, etc.  

Keep in mind that, according to ADGA standard, Nubian ears should extend BEYOND the muzzle when pulled flat.  Many registered/recorded Nubians don't even meet this qualification, so that is a real issue you may have, IF the person signing for your obeys the letter of the standard.  Many people don't.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 15, 2012)

ksacres said:
			
		

> You can find the general breed standards here:  http://www.adga.org/index.php?optio...tbreedstand&catid=909:catadgagoats&Itemid=131
> 
> Hopefully that comes through.
> 
> ...


their ears do extend *slightly* beyond the muzzle but not two inches like the specs say. ,.. ok. i just checked again, it says one inch and they likely meet that.  they have the nice roman noses.  They are all what i would consider smallish and the dam (I have a doe, her daughter and 'her' daughter/granddaughter) is pretty straight in the hocks.  She's sound, but i think her daughters have better angles. Do you think someone would penalize them for being small when the standard says 'largeish'?

how do i go about finding someone?


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