# To Disbud or Not



## Stacykins (Oct 12, 2011)

So if any of you are on BYC, you'll likely have seen this post already in the livestock subforum! I notice that a LOT of people here have goats who still have their horns (at least from what I am seeing in pictures, so this is a great place to ask. 

I am having a really hard time ultimately deciding on whether I should get the pair of Dwarf Nigerian doelings I am getting this spring disbudded (already put the deposit down w/the breeder). I have surfed far and wide over the 'net, but still after all that reading, I'm not sure still! 

Pros about horns:
Natural cooling system
Can be used for defense
Disbudding is painful
Scurs from improper disbudding

Cons about horns:
Dangerous to handler/herdmates
Can get caught in fences - death of goat if not caught quick enough
Most shows have "no horn policy" (I think I'd want to show, sounds like fun!) 
Broken horn = massive blood loss

These will be bottle babies (breeder does this for all kids) and I can essentially pick them up as soon as they are doing well and taking the bottle without trouble. I asked the breeder, and she will do the disbudding if it can be done (said that sometimes doelings buds aren't ready until they are two weeks old, sometimes) before they come to me. So at least that removes the having find a mentor who is willing to help me disbud. But I still have to make the disbudding decision.


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## RareBreedFancier (Oct 12, 2011)

My goats are horned. I never intended to disbud kids born here. Since having quite a number of encounters with their horns I've changed my mind. 

I've had horns dug into my legs, arms, body, face and almost my eye! I lent over, someone swung their head and a horn smashed into my glasses. Good thing the pair I was wearing were safety glasses and didn't break! I've also seen my buck hooking his horns under my ponies. My wether who is partly blind has hurt me several times running to me and catching me with his horns. He can't help that he can't see but that doesn't make encounters with his horns hurt any less. 

I really wanted to let my goats keep their horns but I feel eventually someone is going to get badly hurt. The goats have never intentionally hurt us though they can be rough with each other. I know I will feel really bad when I come to disbud or dehorn my goats but I enjoy being close to my goats and think safety is important.

I think if the breeder is offering to do it for you get it done before they come home.


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## Roll farms (Oct 13, 2011)

I would.

I've disbudded hundreds of kids.  30 seconds after it's done, they're over it.  I feel more guilt banding bucklings than I do disbudding.

I've actually experienced many of the items on your 'cons' list - I've been hurt by horns, I've lost a doe to a buck w/ horns (he hit her sideways / broke her neck), I've had them get hung up in fences...and nearly had my arm / hand / fingers broken trying to free them.  
They also usually won't fit in the headstalls of the milk stanchion (standard goats).  

I've also found that goats with horns who get bored, will use them to do things like tear up fencing, gates, siding on barns, etc.  I'm talking 200+ pound boer and kiko bucks, but ANY goat w/ horns can be distructive with them.

We have very humid / muggy summers and not having horns has never contributed to the loss of our animals to heat issues.  In fact, the horned does look every bit as hot / miserable as the dehorned goats.  We have a meat herd and a dairy herd and any goat born here, who's going to stay here, gets disbudded regardless of breed.
I wouldn't buy a dairy breed that isn't disbudded.  Unless you're 100% sure you'll never want to sell these animals, you may not be able to move them later if they have horns for what they're worth b/c it may be seen as a flaw by most dairy people.

(Yes, I know there are a few people who prefer horns w/ their dairy animals.  But in my experience, 'serious' buyers want their dairy goats disbudded.)

As for horns being protection...many horned goats are killed by predators and loose dogs.  They may offer *some* protection if a goat got the opportunity to use them, but most predators attack from behind (no horns on their butt - now there's an idea...) and domesticated goats usually aren't fast enough to spin / hurt the predator.

Horns are only 'useful' to catch buckwild goats, IMHO.


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## that's*satyrical (Oct 13, 2011)

I vote disbud. I've read way to many horned goat horror stories....


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## Squirrelgirl88 (Oct 13, 2011)

Well, the great debate continues. I did not disbud our Nigerian Dwarf does. I've had a black eye, and three other bruises on my arms and legs from little heads going in wild directions. This was not the goat's fault. It was mine. Do I regret my decision, no. But I do understand why most breeders disbud. I've seen the pictures of the goats with tennis balls on their horns and joked that I may be doing that in the future. 

I've also been covered in poison ivy most of the summer because it turns out kissing little goatie faces after they eat poison ivy is a really bad idea. Again, my fault not theirs. 

I myself will not disbud in the future, call me weak, but I can't do it. I have no intentions of showing my goats, or selling my does. As far as future babies go, the buyer can make that decision, but I will not be doing the deed for them. I'm already panicked about the tattoo process let alone anything else.

I also will not declaw cats or dock dog's tails or ears. 

In the end, it comes down to what you can live with. There is no right or wrong answer.


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## Chaty (Oct 13, 2011)

In the beginning I had goats with horns. Wont do it anymore. I had 1 get stuck in the fence and got torn up by dogs. I have also had them tear each other up with their horns. Older doe hooking a younger doe and ripping her skin I had to stitch up. I now disbud and like Roll said it only takes seconds and they forget it so fast and go on playing. All in all it takes about 30 seconds to do the job and if you are doing it by yourself make a disbudding box. I love mine as hubby hates to help when its time.
My older goats were banded and I think that is so much more painful on them and makes them headshy. I wont have goats anymore that have horns as like some I have had problems also with them hooking me even while trimming hooves. I vote NO HORNS! Just my opinion.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 13, 2011)

If you want to show, but can't bring yourself to disbud, you could always raise a breed that having horns intact is okay for showing: Boer or Pygmy goats for example. The NPGA- National Pygmy Goat Association says "Genetically horned; disbudding and dehorning permissible." IE, they can be shown horns intact or disbudded/dehorned.

I personally love having my horns intact herd   You can add "makes grabbing a 'wild' goat easier" to the list of pros about horns.  I have such a long/difficult time trying to grab a skittish goat that has been disbudded, but all I have to do with my herd is time my reach out and grab just right, and "tada!" horns in hands and leading them to where I want them 

We have a policy on our farm, that if anyone wants a disbudded kid/s from our farm, then they must pay in advance and take their kid/s as soon after birth as possible for bottle raising.(for the safety of the kid, and disbudding is the responsibility of the new owner) This way we do not get stuck with a disbudded goat in the midst of a horns intact herd. There are some people who have success in keeping a mixed herd, we would rather be safe than sorry.

I think the tennis ball thing is not only cute, but a pretty good idea. You can even get blue ones to put on your bucks and pink or red ones to put on your does  Your kids(those of you that have them) will get a kick out of it too!

We have also made the decision on our farm, that any agressive goat(doe or buck) will be bulked up and sent to freezer camp. Whether it is overly agressive to it's herd mates or towards people, an agressive goat has no place in our herd.

*Edited To Add: * The whole thing about horns intact goats strangling themselves in fence or being difficult/dangerous to have on the stanchion(milking stand): Personally, we use Goat Fencing... which is small enough that kids can get their heads through the holes, but adults cannot get any further than their muzzle. I have 1 doeling who has gotten her head stuck(trying to get that tempting leaf on the other side of the fence), but boy did she ever let me know it! Screaming like a banchee for me to come help her, which I did, just a push down on her bum to get her head at the correct angle(her head was through one of the very bottom holes), then a slight tilt of her head and off she went as if nothing ever happened.  We are currently in the process of completing our backing of the bottom of the fence line with chicken wire, so that none of them can get a head through. Working well so far between the smaller(buck) paddock and the larger(doe) paddock, especially when we took the 7 wk old bucklings from their dam(they had been trying to suckle through the fence, we stopped that quick!).

We have not had issues with stanchion use, since the does' horns go up and back and their head are burried in their morning feed during milking. The only issue has been that we had to add another eye loop(hook & eye latches) so the lock bar could be a little tighter. One of our does learned how to tilt her head and use her horns to pop the latch  smarty pants doe!


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## Ms. Research (Oct 13, 2011)

Love the look, but that's not the need.  DH and I have read this thread and discussed that our goats will have no horns.  They are not going to be showed.  Just livestock for us to enjoy and to milk.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 13, 2011)

I just banded my Alpine doe. Her horns have nailed me one too many times. She isn't even doing it on purpose. She loves attention and is just coming up to me or rubbing on me or something. I can't wait until they fall off. If you show and if you promote that your goats are show quality, then everything better be dehorned or people might get turned off.


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## elevan (Oct 13, 2011)

LWF - Just because the NPGA says that horns are permissible for show doesn't mean that local shows allow them on pygmies.  In my area only boers and angoras are allowed to show with horns.



I answered your question on BYC and asked you to come join us here.  I'm glad you took me up on the offer to join  

I'll answer again for everyone here:
I personally prefer horns but my herd is a 50/50 mix of horned and disbudded.  I have never had a goat get caught in the fence.  My "meanest" goat is disbudded and she could do a lot more damage without horns than any with horns imo.  With or without horns harm can come to any handler who isn't properly paying attention.  Horns very rarely break if the goat is getting proper nutrients.  And you're right most shows have a no horn policy for NDs.

It's a personal choice on your part.  If you wanna show, you'll have to disbud.  All other reasons to go one way or the other come down to what you believe.


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## marlowmanor (Oct 13, 2011)

I know my father has a herd that has both horned and disbudded goats in it and he hasn't had problems with it as far as I know.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 13, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> LWF - Just because the NPGA says that horns are permissible for show doesn't mean that local shows allow them on pygmies.  In my area only boers and angoras are allowed to show with horns.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Around here it is weird, adults can show pygmy goats horns intact, but 4-h will not allow horns intact.  Why not let kids have experience with the breed in their natural state? Thankfully, with our farm(and apparently your's too), kids have the opportunity to gain hands on experience with horns intact goats, so they won't grow up to fear them  IMO, the show circuits should treat them like the oxen or long horn cows... just cap the horns so no one could accidentally get jabbed. I think the choice ought to be up to the owner, not a registry/show circuit.

A herd doesn't have to be disbudded/dehorned in order to be show quality.  I have 3 registered goats, all have horns, their pedigrees are beautiful, and I am VERY confident that their offspring will be just beautiful, have nice capacious udders on the girls & have over all wonderful conformation for showing. I also have no doubt that said offspring will all be sold long before kiddings occur. If the right pedigrees are there, and the conformation is there, then people will buy the kids. The parents having or not having horns has no basis on the kids sell-ability... People look at the pedigrees, udders, and lines.... at least, around here.


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## kstaven (Oct 13, 2011)

Stacykins said:
			
		

> So if any of you are on BYC, you'll likely have seen this post already in the livestock subforum! I notice that a LOT of people here have goats who still have their horns (at least from what I am seeing in pictures, so this is a great place to ask.
> 
> I am having a really hard time ultimately deciding on whether I should get the pair of Dwarf Nigerian doelings I am getting this spring disbudded (already put the deposit down w/the breeder). I have surfed far and wide over the 'net, but still after all that reading, I'm not sure still!
> 
> ...


The getting caught in fences is more times than not a matter od people not researching and setting up proper fences for the breed. 

Horns are at there worst with very young animals. From there most issues come down to the experience and knowledge of the owner/handler/TRAINER. No head butting or rubbing as kids eliminates many issues.

Weak horns and resultant breakage is most common with goats fed an improper diet along the way.

Horn scurs can cut you to bits and inflict as much if not more damage than horns because of their deformed nature that of brings them to an edge.

In the end it is a personal decision and if you are willing to put in the training time you can safely keep horned goats. 

We are rare in that we run a mostly horned dairy herd. All kids kept here are horned and the only disbudded ones are goats we have brought in from other sources.


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## DKRabbitry (Oct 14, 2011)

I have both horned and disbudded goats as well.  One lamancha I have, I thank the heavens for her horns.  She isn't the friendliest girl, in fact she is just downright scared of us and doesn't want anything to do with people... and those handholds make dealing with her a LOT easier when we have to catch her.  Trying to hold onto/catch/move the spooky disbudded goats is a pain LOL

But, since your babies will be bottle raised and friendly, that really shouldn't be an issue.  I guess I will just go ahead an reiterate what everyone else has pretty much already said... If you are entertaining ideas of maybe wanting to show, you will need them hornless.  I do not like showing very much, but more than once I have looked at a couple of my better conformed goats and though I could probably clean house at the local shows, but alas, they have horns.  You will be horribly dissapointed if you leave them horned and then down the line are in a position where you want to show, and you are unable to take your best goat just because it has horns.  In fact, it really annoys me because it is my choice and I think they still fit the breed standard so I should be able to show them.  But that really is neither here nor there...

Not to mention, you don't have to do the deed   I am still on the fence whether or not I want to get my own iron and actually learn how to do it, or if I want to hire someone else to do it, or if I just want to leave my kids horned.  I think, around here, they will sell better disbudded... something else to keep in mind.  Resale if it ever comes to it.


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## Stacykins (Oct 14, 2011)

Thank you SO much all, this really helped. I am pretty sure now that even though I do like the look of horns, I will disbud. Since I want to do some showing, it really seems that breed needs to be free of horns in the show ring.


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## kstaven (Oct 14, 2011)

That's what great about this forum. Ask a question and get multiple perspectives to help you out that go well beyond the do it or don't do it answers you see in other places.


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## Queen Mum (Oct 14, 2011)

I don't use tennis balls.  I use these:  







Handlebar grips!  From a bike shop.  Push them on, pull them off.  They stick like glue.  They come in different colors.  They work great!  Some of them glow in the dark.   

Sara
Queen Mum


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## RareBreedFancier (Oct 14, 2011)

Oh my! That's hilarious! I had glow in the dark ones on an old bike. 

It is however a very good idea, I think I might outfit my buck with a pair to try, if he can't get them off they will all get a set. They also look less silly than tennis balls. I might even go for the glow in the dark ones, then if he gets them off in the paddock they will be easy to find at night!


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## Stacykins (Oct 14, 2011)

Sara, that is absolutely brilliant, oh my gosh! And hilarious looking too! I love the thought of glow in the dark goat horns.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 15, 2011)

that idea!!!


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## Queen Mum (Oct 15, 2011)

We made it all the way to Texas, from Washington State with them on him in the back of the truck.  He got on and off the truck and stayed in a pen at night.  You have to make sure that you put them on very firmly.  TWIST is the key.  And they have to be the very flexible ones.   Once on for a while, go out and push them a little further on.  They will stay on for quite a LONG TIME.   

I don't leave them on all the time.  But that's just me.  You can glue them on with a little glue at the ends.  Here he is with his glow in the dark grips.   







Oh and you can get a shorter version that fit just at the tips...  They are about 3 inches long.



Sara


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## marlowmanor (Oct 15, 2011)

That's a really good idea. I will have to remember this if we ever have trouble with the horns on our goat kids.


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## cinnamongirl (Jan 17, 2012)

That is absolute genius! I'm still waiting for my two to be ready to come home and had made the decision not to disbud. I was reading this thread and getting nervous about my decision. Now that has been solved...how to resist the urge to go for a ride?


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## mek (Jan 17, 2012)

cinnamongirl said:
			
		

> That is absolute genius! I'm still waiting for my two to be ready to come home and had made the decision not to disbud. I was reading this thread and getting nervous about my decision. Now that has been solved...how to resist the urge to go for a ride?


Brooom Brroooommmmm eeeeeerrrkkkk  sorry couldnt resist....


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