# Seeding pasture for goats



## ChickenPotPie

I have a small orchard I'd like to grow good eats for my child's dairy goats.  There were bits of grass, mustard, and various weeds growing out there but nothing too impressive.  We've let them eat it pretty much down to the dirt.  With the rainy season (green season in CA) coming I'm thinking right about now would be a great time to seed it.

Where do you get your seed for seeding pasture for dairy goats?  What's in the mix?  What has worked best for you?


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## lilhill

We seeded our pastures with chicory, orchard grass, Max Q fescue (NOT regular fescue that can get a deadly fungi in drought conditions and kill livestock) and a little bit of red clover.


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## cmjust0

Sericea lespedeza.  

It's a legume browse, and is considered a noxious weed in many parts of the country.  Established stands of the stuff are very, very difficult to eradicate.  

Thing is, it's about 18% protein in mid-bloom and the Ca ratio is somewhere on the order of 4.5:1.  It also contains a lot of tannins, and running goats on high-tannin forage helps control parasites..  There's actually scientific proof that running goats on sericea lespedaza in particular reduces parasites loads in goats.

So...my vote is for a big hairy patch of sericea lespedeza.  

Either that, or strip disk it to the dirt, walk away, and let it grow back in native weeds and scrub..  That would be the cheapest, easiest way to go -- but you also open yourself up to native noxious/toxic weeds, too.  

So that's my $.02.


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## jodief100

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Sericea lespedeza.


I was just at KSU for a goat conference yesterday and they were discussing some research on different forages for goats.   They mentioned Sericea lespedeza and agreed with everything you just said.  They also mentioned it can become toxic when it is wilting so you have to make sure your goats do not brouse it after frost.  *I think* ( I am bad with names) it was Sericea Lespedeza they were talking about at that particular moment.  it was a long day......

They also mentioned that studies show that the "good" fescues are not as hardy as the "bad" fescues so sometime when you plant the "good" fescue, eventually your pasture will revert to the "bad" fescue.  There is usually a few seeds of the bad stuff in with the good and it will survive better.  

They said chicory is good, so is clover and alfalpha.  

I will see if I can find the link to the research......


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## cmjust0

jodief100 said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sericea lespedeza.
> 
> 
> 
> I was just at KSU for a goat conference yesterday and they were discussing some research on different forages for goats.   They mentioned Sericea lespedeza and agreed with everything you just said.
Click to expand...

A friend of mine has a patch of it that he bales for hay.  Said it can be a PITA to get started from seed, but once it's up and going, LOOK OUT -- it'll flat out _take over_.  I've looked into it a bit, but not too much as I've got plenty of browse as it is.

I should probably start attending some of these seminars and conferences everybody else seems to attend.  Seems like I'm always hearing someone say "Oh, I was up at XYZ university at a conference on supplementing marshmallow creme to pregnant does ..." or whatever.  Like, "You shoulda been there, man!"

Well...perhaps you shudda told me about it!  

*-Note:  nobody should feed marshmallow creme to anything...i was just sayin'.



> They also mentioned it can become toxic when it is wilting so you have to make sure your goats do not brouse it after frost.  *I think* ( I am bad with names) it was Sericea Lespedeza they were talking about at that particular moment.  it was a long day......


That sounds more like Johnsongrass, but it could be lespedeza..  I've never *heard* that about lespedeza, but then again, I've not heard everything quite yet.  



> They also mentioned that studies show that the "good" fescues are not as hardy as the "bad" fescues so sometime when you plant the "good" fescue, eventually your pasture will revert to the "bad" fescue.  There is usually a few seeds of the bad stuff in with the good and it will survive better.


What fescue lacks in almost everything else, it more than makes up for in resilience.  

I've never been sure if that's good or bad.  :/



> They said chicory is good, so is clover and alfalpha.
> 
> I will see if I can find the link to the research......


Do, plz.


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## PJisaMom

So... I have this big area of clay my husband just leveled with the bobcat... right in the middle of my goat pasture.  

For the record, I can grow stuff about as well as I can dance (and I have the rhythm of a tree trunk, just for reference).  

Should I just let it be, and after several years it'll finally grow something, or should I try to plant something?

And if so... it's nearly winter here (okay... in several weeks, but still)... is there something I should be putting down this fall?  

This all totally didn't occur to me until I read this thread...


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## lilhill

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Sericea lespedeza.
> 
> It's a legume browse, and is considered a noxious weed in many parts of the country.  Established stands of the stuff are very, very difficult to eradicate.
> 
> Thing is, it's about 18% protein in mid-bloom and the Ca ratio is somewhere on the order of 4.5:1.  It also contains a lot of tannins, and running goats on high-tannin forage helps control parasites..  There's actually scientific proof that running goats on sericea lespedaza in particular reduces parasites loads in goats.
> 
> So...my vote is for a big hairy patch of sericea lespedeza.


Around here, Sericea lespedeza has to be planted in the spring and I wanted the fall planting so I'd have spring browsing/grazing.  My goats love the Sericea, but with that said, the first year I fed it to them (baled), they acted like I was giving them candy.  Yummy!  The second year, they wouldn't touch it (baled).  I was getting it from a neighbor near us who plants it every year.

But, I agree that it's good stuff and when planted under the right weather conditions, is great for goats.  I believe I read that in drought conditions, it becomes unpalatable.  And we seem to have those unfavorable conditions here more and more over the past few years.


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## ksalvagno

PJisaMom - I would find out what grasses/legumes are good for goats in your area. Grasses grow great in one area but not another. I mix Kentucky Bluegrass, Orchard Grass and Brome Grass and seed my pastures. These grasses are all pasture grass - you don't want landscaping grass. It also doesn't hurt to add legumes like alfalfa and birdsfoot trefoil.


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## aggieterpkatie

I love fescue, even the regular old K31 tall fescue.  It rarely has major effects on animals as bad as it does for pregnant mares in the third trimester.  Cattle do well on it, and only sometimes have issues with summer slump or fescue foot.  That said, if you are going to plant an improved fescue, make sure it's the novel endophyte (or "friendly" endophyte), and not the endophyte free varieties.  The endophyte is what makes fescue so wonderfully hardy.  Max Q is a novel endophyte, and a wonderful pasture grass.  It is a little more expensive and slightly harder to get established than K31, but it is well worth the money.  My grass hay is 2nd cutting Max Q and the animals LOVE it.  

Plus, with fescue you can stockpile it for winter grazing.  Just stop grazing it around late August (at least here in MD that's what we do) and then let it grow.  After a hard frost the starches turn to sugar and it's highly palatable.  We used to graze beeves on it right up until calving and it met all the cows' nutritional needs just on stockpiled fescue.


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## ChickenPotPie

Wow, lots of information.  I'll admit some of it went right over my head but at least I get an idea of what might be good and that I need to consider our 6 month "brown season" here when choosing.  We don't water the orchard so I'll have to figure out what will grow best in the 6 month green/6 month brown natural CA conditions we live in.

Any ideas?


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## ksalvagno

Your county extension office could really help you out. They can tell you what are good grasses to grow.


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## jodief100

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I should probably start attending some of these seminars and conferences everybody else seems to attend.  Seems like I'm always hearing someone say "Oh, I was up at XYZ university at a conference on supplementing marshmallow creme to pregnant does ..." or whatever.  Like, "You shoulda been there, man!"
> 
> Well...perhaps you shudda told me about it!


CM, That particular seminar was closer to your place than mine!  It was at the KSU research farm in Frankfurt.  KSU has free programs on the third Thursday of every month and they include lunch.  Sheep and goats are October and March.  



			
				jodief100 said:
			
		

> I will see if I can find the link to the research......





			
				cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Do, plz.


It is not online yet.  I will email Dr. Andries and see what he can send me.  He mentioned he was still doing the research so maybe he hasn't published yet.


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## jodief100

Ok, I heard back from Dr. Andries.  It is Sorghum-Sudan grass that can cause toxicity after a frost or during drought stress.  

This is what he sent about Sericea Lespedeza:

Sericea Lespedeza is a warm season legume that grows very well in low quality soils.  It has some problems becoming established with competition from grasses and other plant in our area and is considered a noxious weed in other states so it can be a problem for some people.  The plant contains chemicals called condensed tannins that have been shown to reduce fecal egg counts and can possibly work as a natural dewormer.  However it is not known exactly how it works and egg counts come back up rapidly once animals move off lespedeza during the grazing season.  It is thought that the chemical halts development of larva in the animal and the adult are removed or die off and once they are back on a different forage the larva complete development and start producing eggs.  It is not 100% known at this time how it works.  It is recommended as a better quality warm season forage that can have a beneficial effect on parasite control.  There is no concern about toxicity with this plan, however grazing a stand that is not pure may not have the desired effect on parasites but will benefit production as it is higher quality than most of our forages during the summer.

There have been a lot of studies on Sericea lespedeza for parasite control and one was here in Kentucky.  Many of the projects used cut and carry practices for feeding, in Kentucky the fields were grazed and were not a pure stand.  We saw no benefit from grazing the lespedeza.  Other studies have shown a benefit.  We believe that the issue was the stand and some grazing management issues here that caused us to see no difference.  One farm had a very poor stand and the other had a long ally that the animals grazed a lot going to and from the Lespedeza and water and supplement.  We think that caused the problems.

They are doing some additional research on other forages.  None of it is complete but I have a long summary of what they have so far.  They are studying soybeans, pearl millet, Sorghum-Sudan grass, fescue with red clover and cereal rye for nursing does.  They are looking at stocking rates and forage height as well.
 I can forward what I have to anyone who wants it.  Just PM me.


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## cmjust0

If the length of time between the high/low/high of FEC's between graze/lespedeza/graze could be explained by the life cycle of a barberpole worm -- which it kinda sounds like, based on the idea that tannins might halt the development of larvae, allow adults to die off naturally, then rise again as the larvae mature once the goat comes off the lespedeza -- then it could also be the fact that goats "grazing" lespedeza are grazing something *other than grass.*

Barberpole worms, afterall, are *grass* worms.  I doubt a barberpole would have much luck shimmying its way up a stalk of lespedeza, ya know?

Makes me wonder if they'd see the same drastically positive results of goats turned out onto any other kind of browse..  

(That, btw, it just the kind of question that would probably get me ostracized from these types of seminars.   )


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