# A Breed Mixup/Less than truthful



## AmberRaif (Mar 27, 2019)

So, I have a question.  We recently (Back in January) got a 9 week old male Anatolian/Pyrenees cross from non working parents. His name is Caspian. We went about it a less than ideal way, heavily emotion based and because of a cute picture...and allowed the breeding family to bring us the puppy (so they could see where he would be going) instead of us insisting on meeting the parents ourselves. The breeders/owners assured us that he was 3/4 anatolian (mother a pure bred red fawn anatolian, father a black masked Anatolian/pyr cross). He is an amazing pup. But...I found out that the breeder was not honest. And per a public comment on a facebook thread he "assumes" the mother is actually an anatolian and lab cross. Seeing the photos of the mother...I would guess the same. Or possibly even husky. Or cattle dog, or australian shepherd...but she is NOT a pure anatolian. What is the likelihood this dog will actually turn out as a good LGD? He is being raised with our working female Pyrenees who is amazing and they adore each other, although they have started squabbling over resources if food and treats are not carefully controlled by me. He loves our goat herd and has responded beautifully with his training to NOT play with the baby goats and to respect all the goats. He is 19 weeks old now. He had a rough start with the herd matriarch who butted him around a lot, but now they seem to have an understanding and I saw them nuzzling each other just today. It seemed she wanted him to lick her head and clean her horns and he obliged, although rather half heartedly. My children and all of us have fallen in love with him. And if he fails as an LGD because of his lab genetics...it will break our hearts. But is this unknown breed thing just a recipe for disaster as he matures?  Does anyone here have a successful LGD  that has lab or anything other than a known guardian breed? I'll post a picture so you can see him. 
Edit: I just read "tips for finding a good breeder"..and yeah...we totally and completely knee jerked and botched our selection. Is there any hope based off of good current behavior and guarding tendencies or should we just prepare ourselves for complete bedlam in another couple of months?


----------



## Southern by choice (Mar 27, 2019)

More than likely he will not work well as a guardian, maybe a farm dog though. LGD's have specific purpose, are hard wired to do what they do and need size & power.



AmberRaif said:


> started squabbling over resources



I want to mention this because this is the new buzzword going around within LGD FB groups and forums etc...

"Resource guarding"

It is a load of crock, and that is putting it nicely. 
Dogs may have possessive tendencies but somehow every little thing is being called resource guarding. Um, basically it is a label for a lot of neurotic dogs that are having issues mostly from people not raising their LGD's correctly, some just bad breeding. Food possessiveness is an issue with most LGD's.  Sadly many are now using this new buzzword/term to justify issues.
I just thought you should know the truth.

LGD's that have a job to do and are utilized as LGD's don't have time for "resource" guarding... they are focused on their job. Their goats, their sheep.


----------



## AmberRaif (Mar 27, 2019)

I'm hoping he'll be good at being "dual purpose" then. And not a completely lost cause. 
As far as being food possesive...Our Pyrenees definitely is.  But not to humans, only the other animals. Goats, dogs, cats are all included. She growls and barks them off, but has never made contact or wounded any of them. We also now only feed her in her barn pen, separate from the animals who might try to approach her, which has eliminated most of the problem. Is there a better way to teach her to not be food possessive?  We feed the pup in his pen, we don't let the dogs interact when eating. Also, the Pyrenees (she's 18 months old) tends to bark/growl when a goat tries to climb on her, or when the pup jumps on her (when they wrestle and play together there's all sorts of noise and craziness, but it's obviously all in fun) but when she's being loved on by us and the pup comes over and gets to pushy she pushes him away and "talks" at him rather loudly. Would you correct this or allow her to correct him for his pushiness?


----------



## Skiesblue (Apr 8, 2019)

If she is not dangerous to him I would say let her school him. Maybe feeding in different areas to avoid conflict for now. I have a pup who was thought to have some pyr Anatolian genetics but looks and acts like a Catahoula or one of the cur hunting dogs. (He was part of a litter dumped in our neighborhood). I’m lucky I can use him to watch the front and keep the chickens out of the yard. But I don’t think he’ll ever guard sheep. If nothing else teach your pup basic obedience and good citizenship so if you have to rehome him he has good manners.


----------



## Baymule (Apr 9, 2019)

That really sucks. Is the father of the pup a Pyr/Anatolian cross or did the breeder lie about that too? I think I would call him and confront him, politely, for lying to you. It wouldn't change anything, but it would make me feel better. 

Prepare for bedlam, if it comes, then you are expecting it, and you know what to do. If this dog actually makes a decent LGD, take it as a nice surprise. He might be better as a farm dog.


----------



## AmberLops (Apr 9, 2019)

AmberRaif said:


> I'm hoping he'll be good at being "dual purpose" then. And not a completely lost cause.
> As far as being food possesive...Our Pyrenees definitely is.  But not to humans, only the other animals. Goats, dogs, cats are all included. She growls and barks them off, but has never made contact or wounded any of them. We also now only feed her in her barn pen, separate from the animals who might try to approach her, which has eliminated most of the problem. Is there a better way to teach her to not be food possessive?  We feed the pup in his pen, we don't let the dogs interact when eating. Also, the Pyrenees (she's 18 months old) tends to bark/growl when a goat tries to climb on her, or when the pup jumps on her (when they wrestle and play together there's all sorts of noise and craziness, but it's obviously all in fun) but when she's being loved on by us and the pup comes over and gets to pushy she pushes him away and "talks" at him rather loudly. Would you correct this or allow her to correct him for his pushiness?



Not sure if this will help as i'm not very familiar with LGD's...
The best way to stop any food aggression is hand-feeding the dog every piece of kibble from the bowl. That way the dog knows that the food comes from you, and that usually eliminates any issues.
I'm a dog trainer and I study canine behavior... I've always used this technique but again, not familiar with LGD's. 
Hope this helps!


----------



## Baymule (Apr 9, 2019)

LGDs are a study unto themselves. LOL


----------



## Skiesblue (Apr 9, 2019)

I mean this in the kindest way possible as someone who showed in obedience, LGDS will take everything you know about dogs and stand that on its head. They are not dog like in their responses to so many things. More like people. It’s a wierd, frustrating and ultimately joyously rewarding relationship.


----------



## AmberRaif (Apr 9, 2019)

Skiesblue said:


> If she is not dangerous to him I would say let her school him. Maybe feeding in different areas to avoid conflict for now. I have a pup who was thought to have some pyr Anatolian genetics but looks and acts like a Catahoula or one of the cur hunting dogs. (He was part of a litter dumped in our neighborhood). I’m lucky I can use him to watch the front and keep the chickens out of the yard. But I don’t think he’ll ever guard sheep. If nothing else teach your pup basic obedience and good citizenship so if you have to rehome him he has good manners.



Yes, we do work daily on basic obedience and he is very well socialized with children and accepted friends. Thank you for that recommendation, we'll be sure to keep at it!


----------



## AmberRaif (Apr 9, 2019)

Baymule said:


> That really sucks. Is the father of the pup a Pyr/Anatolian cross or did the breeder lie about that too? I think I would call him and confront him, politely, for lying to you. It wouldn't change anything, but it would make me feel better.
> 
> Prepare for bedlam, if it comes, then you are expecting it, and you know what to do. If this dog actually makes a decent LGD, take it as a nice surprise. He might be better as a farm dog.



I am hoping he will continue as he seems to be now. At 20 weeks he is amazing. The goats have finally accepted him as one of themselves, and now the matriarch only has to look at him or softly bump him and he submits to her.  He lays among them, lets the babies bounce and play all around him without entering into the game, and throws all of his play energy into the 19 month old Pyrenees who meets him for energy about 90 percent of the time. He is showing excellent guarding behaviors, and he and the Pyr already work as a team to come at a threat.  He is stubborn. He does seem to have an "off" day every once in a while where he tries to mount a goat but responds instantly to a sharp voice correction or to the herd matriarch or to the Pyr who grabs him by the neck and flips him upside down. He is very responsive in obedience training, when he wants to be. He is much more animated than our Pyrenees girl, obviously a different dog personality altogether. More energetic, more interested in people relationship, less interested in strangers...he is very serious towards anyone he doesn't know.  I'm hopeful, oh so hopeful, that we get that good guardian surprise. And that his occasional (very very occasional) bounce towards a goat or an attempted mounting will be successfully trained out. Hoping Caspian can be kingly!


----------



## AmberRaif (Apr 9, 2019)

Baymule said:


> That really sucks. Is the father of the pup a Pyr/Anatolian cross or did the breeder lie about that too? I think I would call him and confront him, politely, for lying to you. It wouldn't change anything, but it would make me feel better.
> 
> Prepare for bedlam, if it comes, then you are expecting it, and you know what to do. If this dog actually makes a decent LGD, take it as a nice surprise. He might be better as a farm dog.



Also, I have seen photos of both parents and the father certainly looks Anatolian/Pyr, as he was claimed to be.  I should have realized from the photos that the mother wasn't (she doesn't look it), but he assured me that she was just "red fawn", and the pup was so gorgeous I wanted to believe him.  I have asked him about the untruth...and he admitted to not knowing what the mother was.  He claims that they got her full grown, then bought the Anatolian Pyr male later because they loved what they assumed she was, an anatolian mix, and wanted another Anatolian. The parents aren't working dogs. They are pets in a subdivison, so the fact that Caspian is so good out here on our land and has integrated with the goats so completely...I'm just waiting for it to all fall apart when the lab or whatever clicks into being. And praying it doesn't.  Because we only need two LGD's. Not enough land for more (three acres, fenced, but not crossfenced). So if he fails as an LGD...we will probably have to rehome him. We have bad coyote problems during certain seasons and need two LGD's during the daytime, nightime everybody goes in the barn. And we can't afford to keep three responsibly. So...fingers crossed and training continues.


----------



## Baymule (Apr 9, 2019)

We have a Lab/Great Dane cross along with our 2 Great Pyrenees. I don't see the Lab as a drawback here, it may compliment the Pyr/Anatolian of your pup's father. He just might turn out to be a fine LGD. I sure hope so.


----------



## Ridgetop (Apr 9, 2019)

At 5 months Caspian is still a young puppy.  The larger the breed the longer to maturity.  I would not be worried about him trying to play with the goats occasionally as long as he responds to warnings from you, the Pyr and the herd queen.   The herd queen has taught him respect by knocking him around, and the Pyr grabbing him and punishing him when he tries to get rough with the goats is excellent training.  Keep watching him and even if he does not become  great LGD, hopefully he will learn to be a good farm dog.  A good farm dog is different than a livestock guardian, but they also will go after predators that come onto the property after the livestock.  Having the Pyr to train him, he should become a good dog.  Definitely start him in basic obedience since he is a mix breed. 

What did the mother look like?  The black and tan dog in the photo looks like he has more herding dog in him than Pyr or Anatolian.  Are the breeders sure that the male was a Pyr/Anatolian cross?  However, just because he is not a pureblood LGD does not mean he cannot be trained to leave the goats alone and protect the farmyard and pasture.  It may mean that he will not chase off other dogs, some of our farm dogs did not chase off neighborhood stray dogs but would attack the coyotes.  Our LGDs drive off the stray dogs as well. 

Look for blood on the goats' or sheeps' legs and ears and watch him to see if he is trying to play with them.  From the sound of it, your Pyr is disciplining him very well.  Our Anatolian puppy was raised with livestock, but drew blood when she tried to play with our lambs and our ewes were too soft to discipline her  We moved her into a pen with our rams and they taught her not to try to nip at them in play.  Our rams are pretty gentle too so they did not go after her hard.  He is a baby still, so be prepared for mistakes.  One caveat is that Anatolians can be very dominant so put some obedience training into him and hopefully his LGD heritage will triumph.


----------

