# Another question about my slow-growing kids



## Ariel301 (Dec 15, 2010)

I have lately been working on figuring out why my kids don't grow as fast as they should, they are much, much smaller than other kids of the same breed and age. A friend of mine has a half sister of one of my does, and her less than a year old sister is bigger than my nearly two year old one. Research tells me I probably have a cocci problem, and so I will start treating for that. Looking through some photos, I have noticed a trend among all the kids that are slow growers and wanted to see if this is consistent with cocci.

They stop/slow their growth right around 2 months old/weaning time. They will be in good body condition and growing like weeds up to this point, and then between 2-3 months will develop a big round belly (they sort of look pregnant, even the males!) but will be really skinny looking in the front end, their ribs are showing if they are shaved. This slowly goes away around a year old or so, they lose the pot belly and put on some more padding on their ribs. Their coats look a little rough during this stage too, and at least on the ones this year their eyelids were pale despite deworming and negative fecal checks and not having lice. They don't ever seem to be "sick" though--no diarrhea or fever, and they are eating well and fairly active. 

This year, all my purebred kids went through this, and my one mutt Nigerian mix, in the same pen, same age, same diet...is super chubby and growing wonderfully. She came from a farm that doesn't treat the goats for anything or clean anything or really take care of their animals, so out there, if they don't develop an immunity to things they just die. So whatever is affecting my purebred kids, that girl is immune to.  A friend of mine who has been a goat breeder for many, many years tells me that this always happens if a goat does not get its CDT shot early enough, they will be stunted forever from it...but that doesn't make any sense at all to me, I can't find any support for that.  

So, does this type of body condition sound consistent with a coccidiosis problem?

Here's a 5 month old doe kid last year, showing the pot-belly. (Her coat looks worse than it really is, she had just gotten her first clipping and it didn't go well!) You can't really tell here, but in person, you could count her ribs from a couple of feet away. This year's kids had bigger round bellies, hers isn't bad compared to most of them. I'll get a picture of my buckling, he looks really horrible right now.


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## helmstead (Dec 15, 2010)

Yep.

Here's a way for it to make better sense for you.  Babies who are still nursing get liquid nutrition - easy to digest.  Upon weaning time, they loose that easy to digest liquid nutrition and have to actually digest food to get the nutrients.  Most of this nutrient absorption is done in the last stomach and small intestine (which are damaged by cocci).  

Boom, big full bellies, and little good from it.


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## Ariel301 (Dec 15, 2010)

That's what I was thinking...just wanted some confirmation.

Other than giving them the medication and lots of good feed, any tips for trying to bring the older kids back to good condition and get them growing again? I'm hoping my buckling isn't a lost cause, it's nearly impossible to find a purebred LaMancha buck in this area. :/


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## helmstead (Dec 15, 2010)

Yeah, the photo is definitely a cocci baby.  Big in all the wrong places...head, belly.  Tendons look a little contracted, too...

On your second question...treat them for cocci regularly as adults (2x/yr) and POUR the feed to them.  They'll probably not catch up...but you can get the conditioning better with lots of feed and good legume hay.


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## Our7Wonders (Dec 15, 2010)

Ariel, some thoughts I have when reading your post - of course, keep in mind I know next to nothing on goats and absolutely nothing about cocci.

BUT, it is a passion of mine to research human nutrition and natural health care and remedies.  Perhaps foods, herbs, etc, that are healing to the intestinal wall in people may benefit your goats that have had damage.  The previoius posts remind of candida infections in people and how the intestinal lining can become damaged - leading to poorer nutrition and leaky gut syndrome (as well as MANY other ailments).  Just a thought.  I know for some aloe vera can be very healing to the gut as well as glutamine.  I have no idea if you can use glutamine on a goat but I have watched a seminar on natural livestock care and they were very big on the aloe vera.  

The owners of Crystal Creek was one of the speakers at the seminar - they do have a website www.crystalcreeknatural.com  According to their website they staff a vet and answer questions.  It appears as though they cater to large natural livestock producers, but it might be worth giving them a call and ask for suggestions - I know they carry aloe vera there.

Anyway, just some random thoughts that came to mind.  Hopefully you can get them turned around.

Debbi


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## helmstead (Dec 15, 2010)

7Wonders, interesting suggestions!


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## Ariel301 (Dec 15, 2010)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> BUT, it is a passion of mine to research human nutrition and natural health care and remedies.  Perhaps foods, herbs, etc, that are healing to the intestinal wall in people may benefit your goats that have had damage.  The previoius posts remind of candida infections in people and how the intestinal lining can become damaged - leading to poorer nutrition and leaky gut syndrome (as well as MANY other ailments).  Just a thought.  I know for some aloe vera can be very healing to the gut as well as glutamine.  I have no idea if you can use glutamine on a goat but I have watched a seminar on natural livestock care and they were very big on the aloe vera.
> 
> Debbi


I will look in to that, interesting. 

In the photo, her head actually looks oversized because her body is shaved and her head is not. It was a bad haircut.  But I do see what you mean. Here's the same doe at 18 months old, she looks better (aside from the fish tail, I cleared that up with some copper) but still tiny. 





And some pot-bellies on this year's kids...:/













Hopefully between the cocci treatment and switching to a better mineral than I used to use, next year's kids are going to look much better.


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## helmstead (Dec 15, 2010)

These goats really need more concentrates in their diet.  I'd use a product like Calf Manna, and even add a fast fat product (the granules marketed for horses are good).  I'd say 1/4 cup of calf manna twice a day...along with some alfalfa pellets added to their usual ration will really help. They need to get more condition in order to produce well for you.

I have one JUST like that, a Nubian doe purchased as a yearling.  She is a VERY hard keeper, but I've finally gotten her up to 'my' snuff...


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## Ariel301 (Dec 15, 2010)

The calf-manna sounds like a good idea, I'll try them on that. I usually don't grain my kids, only my milkers, since grain is extremely expensive here...but I've already started giving some to what is left of this year's kids. During the summer we get tons (literally) of high-protein brewer's mash from the local brewery, but in winter they don't brew anything, so I have to buy bagged grain, at $13+ a bag for 12% sweet feed...that's the only available choice other than cracked corn or chicken scratch, unfortunately. I have one older "hard keeper" doe that I give grain top dressed with Red Cell and corn oil (cheap fat source, used to give the oil to show horses to fatten them) and an extra sprinkling of mineral. I can start doing that for the kids too, and some calf-manna.


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## ()relics (Dec 16, 2010)

This is my own opinion, probably biased, but Mine...First of all if I had a doe/does that were stunted in growth because of a battle with coccidiosis, or any other parasite for that matter, I would cull them based on genetics.  I certainly wouldn't want to add a doe that has had a parasite  problem to my breeding herd to Potentially pass that trait to it offspring, which would then be Potentially more prone to a bloom and battle.  To me that would be promoting the opposite of my herd goal, parasite resistence...
Second...12% sweet feed is made as a general stock feed, more than likely.  You would do yourself a favor NEVER buying it again but instead switch to a goat formulated pelleted feed with 16-18% protein and 2-3.5% fat.  I can almost guarentee you will see the results.  Sweet feed, or textured feed, is a cheap substitute for the real stuff...Again just my opinion..But I would make sure it is medicated with decoquinate or monesin to help with your apparent coccidiosis issues.  Calf Manna is GREAT but REALLY REALLY expensive and may be a short term solution for one or 2 animals but you won't want to base your general ration on it unless your last name is Rockefeller...Again JMO...If you are feeding a good Goat formulated pellet and you still have an animal that will not put on/hold condition, and you are not going to do the right thing and cull it, then you can mix BOSS into the particular animals daily ration, to add some extra fat.  I also top dress, nearly everyday, with Optizyme, made by the same people that make calf manna, for a probiotic boost to slower animals...again  all JMO
The key to the whole deal is culling...Cull the animals that don't meat your herd goals, whatever standards you have set, because feeding none/under producing animals is really wasting your money...all goes back to Genetics...at least in my book...


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## helmstead (Dec 16, 2010)

relics, I get where you're coming from...and I suppose someone going for a resistant herd would follow in that, BUT...cocci is one of those producer-induced problems.  

Yeah, you can find some lines in dairy goats less affected by cocci...but...IMO an animal kept in modern conditions who is negatively affected by cocci isn't 'genetically inferior'.

What I hear is - no cocci prevention, no medicated feed.  To me, these cocci babies are a product of husbandry.  And, Ariel...I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just trying to point out that I don't feel these goats should be culled _unless_ you just don't want to have them.  Given the proper care, their offspring should be fine.

As far as what relics said about the sweet feed...I agree 100%.  Sweet feed is junk...I don't even feed that to my horses, which it is supposed to be made for.

Calf Manna is about $1/lb here.  When dosing goats, it comes out to very little investment monthly as it's just a topdress.  Calf Manna isn't a fat supplement, it's a protein supplement...you need extra protein to build muscle, not fat.


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## Roll farms (Dec 16, 2010)

I love Calf Manna...hate it's price, but you cannot argue w/ good results.

I don't consider cocci a cull factor, either.  Now, if I had one I had to TREAT for it, despite all the prevention I use...then yes, maybe.  

(By that, I mean if one had really high fecals AND became symptomatic despite being fed Deccox feed and given dimethox monthly.)

Also, IMHO, kids need supplementation, especially at weaning, if you expect them to reach full potential.  The stress of weaning alone will take a kid 'down' a bit, when you add in cocci or some other parasite, you're setting them up to fail, at least a little.  Not giving them anything extra to make up for the losses....is a recipe for exactly what's happening. 

I'm sorry, but that's just how I feel.  You want to produce animals that will produce...that takes some extra inputs.

If you were just making 'brush eaters' I'd STILL suggest supplemental feeding at weaning.  These will be milkers, so I'd put extra emphasis on it...they need it if you want them to make milk to their full potential.


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## helmstead (Dec 16, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Also, IMHO, kids need supplementation, especially at weaning, if you expect them to reach full potential.  The stress of weaning alone will take a kid 'down' a bit, when you add in cocci or some other parasite, you're setting them up to fail, at least a little.  Not giving them anything extra to make up for the losses....is a recipe for exactly what's happening.
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> I'm sorry, but that's just how I feel.  You want to produce animals that will produce...that takes some extra inputs.
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> If you were just making 'brush eaters' I'd STILL suggest supplemental feeding at weaning.  These will be milkers, so I'd put extra emphasis on it...they need it if you want them to make milk to their full potential.


Agreed.  I creep feed my babies until they're too big to fit in the creep feeder...all you can eat medicated goat pellet buffet til about 8 mos.  My babies have great growth rates...you get out what you put in!


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## ()relics (Dec 16, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

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All my kids have available creep feed starting at 2 weeks.  I wean at 100 days and they go straight to the best feed I can afford.  If they don't meet my herd goals they GO...I admit I am raising a different type of goat but I just don't see the benefits of feeding ANY slow grower to be added to my breeding herd.  Coccidiosis may or may not be a culling factor in your herd plan but if I have to give ANY goat special treatment then they are a candidate for culling. But think about the math for a minute...If you culled every goat that struggled with cocci or HC...eventually your herd would be somewhat Genetically reisistent by default...No?  and on the other hand if you kept all the goats that were adversely affected by the same parasites you would then build into your herd a tolerance for these parasites..again No?  I would rather just keep the resistent animals and cull the rest.
   I have a little girl right now that although I love her paperwork and structure;  She has become a problem and will be culled as soon a she is old enough.  Simply on the basis that potentially she could pass this undesirable trait to her offspring which will then start to pull my herd away from where I what to be...jmo...but I do it for the money....


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Dec 16, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

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I don't disagree entirely, but I think the difference is that you're talking about goats that don't thrive when they're given the extra input from day one.  Here we're talking about goats that weren't given the extra input and failed to thrive.  Genetically, she may well have goats that would perform just fine given the same feed as your own kids.

And thank you for posting this Ariel.  We make mistakes so we can learn and putting yours out there for everyone to learn from is invaluable.


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## helmstead (Dec 16, 2010)

Like I said, I GET where you're coming from...but...taking an average dairy herd to a resistant herd would take you probably 10 years, and LOTS of culling.

Many meat breeds are BRED for resistance, but dairy focused more on, well...dairy...and are typically kept differently.  So, you have more to play with regarding resistant lines and such...you also have a shorter wait to figure out if the animal is 'worthy' whereas dairy herds have to freshen does, show bucks...etc etc...

Slowly maturing lines are one thing, but stunted kids are another.  And still, within dairy goats, slowly maturing lines aren't necessarily a cull factor...you just have to wait longer to make a decision.


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## ()relics (Dec 16, 2010)

I get what you are saying...glad I don't have dairy goats....I can barely handle feeding cull kids for 100 days and then, as meat goats, they still bring a fair price...and that would be without too much feed input.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm sure there is MAJOR room for improvement in the parasite resistance of dairy goats, so I'm with you on that... but I'm wondering if you don't think you would have some meat kids who would have poor growth rates (regardless of genetics) without the medicated feed they're on?

I'm just thinking that blaming genetics and lack of parasite resistance alone is unwise in this case.  It's still possible that the slow growers would have performed normally given the same input as the meat kids we're talking about.  Or maybe not, it just seems like you couldn't make that call about the genetics until you saw growth rates given equal opportunity.


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## ()relics (Dec 16, 2010)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I'm sure there is MAJOR room for improvement in the parasite resistance of dairy goats, so I'm with you on that... but I'm wondering if you don't think you would have some meat kids who would have poor growth rates (regardless of genetics) without the medicated feed they're on?
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> I'm just thinking that blaming genetics and lack of parasite resistance alone is unwise in this case.  It's still possible that the slow growers would have performed normally given the same input as the meat kids we're talking about.  Or maybe not, it just seems like you couldn't make that call about the genetics until you saw growth rates given equal opportunity.


That's what I was Initially suggesting...meat goat are bred to get to market weight in the quickest manner possible.  I would guess they have been "engineered" to utilize high protein/fat feeds to their potential, because thats what I want...fat kids at 100 days.  If you wanted bigger kids FEED them more/better, as I suggested, then if they don't meet your expectations get rid of them.  It is ALL about genetics...JMO and not to make enemies but every breeder/producer/showman knows if you start with JUNK you cannot expect show winners...Same would go for meat producers, if you start with slow growing high maintenence lines you can't expect parasite resistent, quick to finish, show rockets...In dairy goats, I am theorizing here, if you buy sale barn milkers you wouldn't expect milking stars...to me its ALL genetics...true you may not be able to breed a trait into your line in the next few years, BUT you could try to at least move toward that goal by efficient culling...AGAIN JMO...I am a meat goat producer that happens to own a few Fullbloods that, on occasion, enter a showring....


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## Roll farms (Dec 16, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> Coccidiosis may or may not be a culling factor in your herd plan but if I have to give ANY goat special treatment then they are a candidate for culling.


I realize I'm asking for it but... feeding medicated feed isn't 'special treatment'?


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Dec 16, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

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That's what I was arguing.  I'm in total agreement with you relics about genetics determining parasite resistance and growth rates _ all other factors being equal _ but I'm saying it might be good to hold off on culling until all other things ARE equal.  Unless you were breeding specifically for goats that can thrive without coccidiosis preventative and creep feeding, it seems like you should at least level the playing field BEFORE you started culling.


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## Roll farms (Dec 16, 2010)




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## ()relics (Dec 16, 2010)

No its $ 4.50 more per ton than non medicated feed.  monensin is actually thought to be a digestion aid...medicated feed is common sense.  Coccidiosis is a kid killer, why not try to control it All the Time before it becomes a real problem. All my goats get it All the time, amounts vary but if they get a feed concentrate its medicated.  I would label anything above that as "special treatment"


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## Ariel301 (Dec 29, 2010)

Interesting reading....

As far as sweet feed versus a goat feed....NOBODY within a hundred miles of where I live sells any goat feed. Our feed store carries the following: chicken scratch, cracked corn, sweet feed, alfalfa cubes. Nothing else really, and they don't do special orders. I tried for a while to come up with a custom grain blend for my herd, but found that the individual grains I wanted to mix were not even available. What little we do have available is ridiculously expensive as well, because grain has to be shipped here from out of state, Arizona being a desert. I just have to make do with what is available, the only other option would be to pay about $50 a bag for an organic dairy goat feed that would have to be shipped to me from another state. I just can't afford that.  I started the buckling and my chronically thin older doe on some calf-manna on top of their regular feed. I also dosed the buckling with di-methox. The other buckling and the cream colored doeling I shared photos of are no longer around, the buckling was killed by a mean doe that went to freezer camp afterwards, and the doeling died of tetanus from a bad puncture wound. It's been a rough year for us with losing kids to a lot of random things. After deworming and the di-methox, the buckling is starting to look and act a bit better, but he has a long ways to go before he will be fully healthy, I expect.

As for culling hard to breed towards resistance...I'd love to be able to work towards that, but with a very small herd (currently only four does) and a small budget, that's not practical for me at the moment. Nor would be getting rid of any animals that had a problem and getting new replacements, there are only two breeders of purebred LaManchas within a hundred miles or so of where I live, and I am one of them, my good friend the other. So, there's just not much available, and I have no desire to change breeds. The vast majority of the goats available within reasonable distance of me are probably highly resistant to disease because they receive little to no care or medical attention...but they are also poorly built crossbred meat type or Nubian type animals not at all suitable for dairy or, in my opinion, anything other than a tasty stir-fry. So I've got to work with what I have until I have more land and more money. I'd love to see dairy goats that are less delicate than what we've got now, it seems to me that disease resistance has been lost to a large extent with inbreeding and selection for an animal that can perform in the show ring. I do show my goats, but personally prefer to breed for good milk production and personality before worrying about flawless conformation and a ridiculous huge meaty udder that the poor goat can hardly walk around with. I absolutely would quit breeding an animal if it was consistently producing unhealthy, poor quality offspring or was chronically unhealthy itself, I don't want to pass anything on like that.

I can see that coccidia is probably essentially a man-made problem in my circumstances. Because I do not own the land I am living on, I cannot fence off the whole 7 acres and let the goats roam around at will browsing. The plant life here is very slow growing, so my landlords do not want any of it disturbed...meaning the goats live in smallish pens, and even with frequent cleaning, obviously there is always going to be manure on the ground, and parasites, coccidia included, in that manure, and baby goats will eat it, and get sick. So I think the issue is more one of management conditions than one of having poor stock to begin with, basically it is my fault they are not doing well, not the goats', I think in a more "natural" setting out on large pastures, they would not have so many problems, as the kids would come into less contact with the parasites, since it would be spread more thinly. 

Does the di-methox drench normally cause diarrhea? After the second day of treatment, my buckling had really bad diarrhea through the rest of the treatment and for a couple days after, then it cleared up again. Also, would it be reasonable to see a goat that was stunted by coccidiosis to later have issues with mineral deficiency? The brown and black doe in my photos has clearly been stunted, and I notice she needs extra copper while no one else in the herd seems to have issues with it. Also this doe and the white buckling both seem to always be at the mineral feeder stuffing their faces while I hardly see anyone else touching it.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Dec 30, 2010)

I haven't even read the original post, so what I'm saying is just based on the title. The lady that I bought one of my does and a doeling from had almost all of her kids die this year, and several other farms had the same problem. The first thing that I had noticed was that my doeling, and the buckling that I bought, and then sold back to her, were growing SO slow! It later turns out that there is a bacteria that it attacking the area and  several farms have lost almost all of their kids due to it. I'll see if I can find what kind it is.... It caused Pnuemonia and Scours in the kids, but treating the Pnuemonia and Scours wasn't enough I guess, since you had to treat the bacteria causing those.


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## Roll farms (Dec 30, 2010)

> Does the di-methox drench normally cause diarrhea? After the second day of treatment, my buckling had really bad diarrhea through the rest of the treatment and for a couple days after, then it cleared up again. Also, would it be reasonable to see a goat that was stunted by coccidiosis to later have issues with mineral deficiency? The brown and black doe in my photos has clearly been stunted, and I notice she needs extra copper while no one else in the herd seems to have issues with it. Also this doe and the white buckling both seem to always be at the mineral feeder stuffing their faces while I hardly see anyone else touching it.


I've had kids get the poos from DiMeth when I used it as a treatment only....since I've started using it as a preventative (every 21 days during the hot / wet months) it rarely causes a problem.

And yes, they will need more mineral if their intestinal lining is damaged...they have to take in more (of everything) to absorb ANYTHING.



> I haven't even read the original post, so what I'm saying is just based on the title. The lady that I bought one of my does and a doeling from had almost all of her kids die this year, and several other farms had the same problem. The first thing that I had noticed was that my doeling, and the buckling that I bought, and then sold back to her, were growing SO slow! It later turns out that there is a bacteria that it attacking the area and  several farms have lost almost all of their kids due to it. I'll see if I can find what kind it is.... It caused Pnuemonia and Scours in the kids, but treating the Pnuemonia and Scours wasn't enough I guess, since you had to treat the bacteria causing those.


Chances are, the problem wasn't a bacteria, it was coccidia.  Lowered / compromised immune systems from coccidia often allow opportunistic bacteria to take over...treating the 'symptoms' (scours/pnuemonia) won't cure the real 'problem' (coccidia).  
Often times animals seem to improve short-term, because the side issues are cleared up...but until they're old enough to fight it off or the coccidia is treated, they will still suffer growth setbacks and are at risk of death.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 30, 2010)

Ariel301 said:
			
		

> Does the di-methox drench normally cause diarrhea? After the second day of treatment, my buckling had really bad diarrhea through the rest of the treatment and for a couple days after, then it cleared up again. Also, would it be reasonable to see a goat that was stunted by coccidiosis to later have issues with mineral deficiency? The brown and black doe in my photos has clearly been stunted, and I notice she needs extra copper while no one else in the herd seems to have issues with it. Also this doe and the white buckling both seem to always be at the mineral feeder stuffing their faces while I hardly see anyone else touching it.


Yes it can give them diarrhea.  I agree.  Along with extra minerals you always want to give the Vitamin B shots.  Those B vitamins are crucial to the metabolism of of the nutrients they are getting.  I would definately give them B shots. Important!!!!   It will also increase the appetite too...so when they get some balanced feed..it will be absorbed properly. So they can start getting some condition and muscle tone! Really important so they can sustain themselves while compromised.  

Make sure no one is dehydrated and give fresh water daily for sure.  And I cant stress enough..get some B complex for them!!!  Thats cheap enough for a large bottle.  I think its like $6.00 bucks.  And as for good grain...I would drive the 100 miles and find someone to get it.  You dont need $50 a bag organic feed to keep your animals in optimum health.  Thats just not true.  Just get a well balanced feed and offer loose minerals.  You can get a nice well balanced feed for $10 a 50lb bag.  With a cocciastat in it if you want.!!

Good luck...Im sorry you have to go thru this...but its not the end of the world and you can get them healthy soon enough!  They may never be the optimum goat for show or sales...but you can get them healthy and in good condition for sure!!!


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Dec 30, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> > Does the di-methox drench normally cause diarrhea? After the second day of treatment, my buckling had really bad diarrhea through the rest of the treatment and for a couple days after, then it cleared up again. Also, would it be reasonable to see a goat that was stunted by coccidiosis to later have issues with mineral deficiency? The brown and black doe in my photos has clearly been stunted, and I notice she needs extra copper while no one else in the herd seems to have issues with it. Also this doe and the white buckling both seem to always be at the mineral feeder stuffing their faces while I hardly see anyone else touching it.
> 
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> I've had kids get the poos from DiMeth when I used it as a treatment only....since I've started using it as a preventative (every 21 days during the hot / wet months) it rarely causes a problem.
> ...


They had a vet take a look and the vet is who said it was this bacteria. I really need to try and find where I saw it mentioned...


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Dec 30, 2010)

OK here is what it actually was. I'm kind of confused about the scours bit now though as I know my doeling had scours. Acute Mycoplasmal Pneumonia


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## Ariel301 (Jan 1, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

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Yep, I am big on the B-complex too. You won't catch me without it on hand. Little buckling is looking better and better every day. He's still thin but he's much more active and hungry now, gobbling grain, minerals, and hay. He's probably never going to grow to the size he was meant to be (both his parents are HUGE) but it won't mess with his genetics, so he'll still be able to do his job. I am so happy he's getting better, this kid is the biggest sweetheart of a buck I have ever met, and his dam's udder is just to die for. This year's kids are due starting in 3 1/2 weeks, so I am hoping for a better, fresh start with some new babies after all the hard luck I've had the last couple of years.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 2, 2011)

Good luck and hope everything goes well. One bad year is enough for anyone!


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## Roll farms (Jan 2, 2011)

Glad to hear you're seeing some improvement.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 2, 2011)

That's great he's doing better!  Even if he doesn't see his full potential in size and ease of keeping you've worked hard so that his kids will.  Good luck!!


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