# Pellets? Grain? Hay? Types of Hay?  Help?



## lilcheeks (Jul 20, 2015)

I have two goats (wethers) that both 5 months old, one is a Nigerian Dwarf and the other a Pygmy.  I am trying to figure out the best way to feed them and the more research I do the more confused I get.  Here is what I am doing currently.  

-1 cup each of Purina Noble Goat (half in morning and half at night)
-Free Choice Kent Minerals
-Free Choice Alfalfa hay mix
-Pasture Weeds/grass all day (52'x60' pasture for the two of them)

Now, I know goats waste hay, but these two are wasting at least half their hay daily.  I have some storage available but can't imagine what I would do in the winter (in Michigan) if they go through a bale of hay in a week now.

So my questions are:

-Can I do just hay pellets if they are eating in the pasture?  Or can I do a mix of Hay and pellets?
-What type of pellets should I be feeding wethers?  alfalfa pellets or timothy grass?  Or mix the two?
-How much pellets should I feed if I do only pellets or if I do a mix of hay and pellets?

Thank you so much, hopefully I will get some clarity on this.  I feel like every article I find it says that wethers shouldn't have alfalfa but then another says they need it.  I just want to know what successful goat people are doing.  Thanks!


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## babsbag (Jul 20, 2015)

I don't currently have any wethers but I do have some bucks and they get the same alfalfa hay that my does get. I have many friends with goats and those with wethers also feed alfalfa. If their mineral doesn't have ammonium chloride in it you need to either find one that does or add some, or sprinkle it on their Noble goat. Just a teaspoon or so a day; it will help to keep them from getting urinary calculi.

You might be able to feed just the pellets if you have enough browse or pasture for them, but goats need long stem fiber; hence the reason for hay. However I have a friend that feeds only alfalfa cubes and some browse and his goats are fine, also NO WASTED HAY. They say it takes 3 days of a goat starving before they will eat the cubes, most don't like them at all.

You need to keep the ratio of calcium to phosphorus about 2:1 in their feed, don't feed straight wheat hay, I speak from sad experience on that one.

When I had 25 adult dairy does I was feeding one 100lb bale of alfalfa a day. Goats do waste alot of hay. You can make feeders that have a catch tray under them, that will help a little. I now have 25 adults and about 15 kids and the does are in milk...I feed two bales a day.


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## lilcheeks (Jul 21, 2015)

I just checked this morning and their minerals do not have ammonium chloride in it, but it does have 2:1 calcium to phosphorus.  I will get some ammonium chloride to add to their food daily and the next round of minerals I buy I will see if I can find some with ammonium chloride in it.  As far as hay pellets, do you think it would be okay to feed both hay and pellets?  I don't have a ton of storage space so hay is harder to keep unless I make monthly trips to get it.  I was thinking of doing a flake of hay in the morning for the two of them in their house when they eat their Noble Goat, but then keep hay pellets outside for them during the day.  thoughts on that?


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## babsbag (Jul 21, 2015)

I think that would be fine. I certainly understand the space to store hay, I do use a lot but even when we first started with 3 goats (did I really only own three? ) hay storage was a challenge.


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## lilcheeks (Jul 21, 2015)

Okay last question hopefully.  For the pellets, would you do a mix of alfalfa pellets and timothy grass?  Or would you just pick one or the other?  My local TSC has both in stock so its not a big deal to get both if needed.


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## lkmartin1230 (Jul 21, 2015)

I prefer Timothy grass. But, the alfalfa pellets are just as good. I have never had wether but, have bucks, and does.


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## lilcheeks (Jul 21, 2015)

Thank you!  Maybe I will try them both.


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## SheepGirl (Jul 23, 2015)

lilcheeks said:


> I have two goats (wethers) that both 5 months old, one is a Nigerian Dwarf and the other a Pygmy.  I am trying to figure out the best way to feed them and the more research I do the more confused I get.  Here is what I am doing currently.
> 
> -1 cup each of Purina Noble Goat (half in morning and half at night)
> -Free Choice Kent Minerals
> ...



A 44 lb growing wether that's gaining 1/5 to 1/4 lb per day needs 0.97 lb or 68% TDN (energy aka 'calories') and 0.21 lb or 15% CP (protein).

Now I'm not sure how much 1 cup of the noble goat weighs. Let's just say it weighs about 1/4 lb (you will need to measure this yourself to be sure). Why do we weigh feed instead of measuring by volume? Every feed weighs differently even if it's the same volume as the other feed. Some feed is really dense, other is pretty loose. In addition, the guaranteed analysis on the feed tag gives you the amounts of the nutrients on a weighted basis--not volume. So if your feed is 16% protein, that means for every 1 lb of the feed you are feeding, the animal consumes 0.16 lbs of protein. There is no way to determine the lbs of nutrients fed (vital to balancing rations) if you use the volume of feed, unless it's weighed and it weighs the same consistently.

So, let's take the analysis of the feeds you would like to use (Noble goat and alfalfa mix hay):
We are just going to focus on protein and energy, as the minerals should balance out any issues with the noble goat and hay you are feeding--in addition, noble goat is a complete feed, which means it is completely balanced.

So, Noble Goat:
16% CP -- there is no energy shown, so to calculate that, you take 80% - Crude Fiber, so that would be 80% - 16% = 64% TDN

And alfalfa/grass mix:
17% CP -- 60% TDN

You said you want to limit hay, as you don't have a lot of storage space for it. So instead of feeding it free choice, feed 1-2 lbs of hay per goat per day. That way your average 45 lb bale will last you about 2.5-3 weeks instead of 1 week. 

So, how do we calculate how much feed to give if you want to limit your hay? Well first we figure out what nutrients the hay is providing and if you are deficient.

BUT before we do that, we have to convert 1.5 lbs of "as-fed" hay to "dry matter" hay. Hay is about 89% Dry Matter (11% moisture), so you multiply 1.5 x 0.89. That equals 1.335 lbs of dry matter. Now you can take that number and multiply it by the protein and energy values (which are almost always expressed on a dry matter basis, unless stated it's an as-fed basis, aka with all the moisture).

1.335 x 17% = 0.22695 lbs CP
1.335 x 60% = 0.801 lbs TDN

And if we go back up to the CP and TDN requirements for these two goats, you will see that they need 0.97 lbs of TDN and 0.21 lbs CP. They are being provided with enough protein, but they are deficient in energy. Noble goat is primarily used for protein rather than energy, so using it as a source of extra energy is expensive on a cost-per-nutrient basis. If you care about saving money, you can find either a grass-mix hay or you can keep your alfalfa hay and just feed some corn (I can buy 50 lbs of corn in my area for about $6 and it provides 88% TDN). 

So if you want to feed the Noble Goat, you need to make up 0.97 - 0.801 = 0.169 lbs of TDN. So you divide the lbs TDN missing by the % TDN in the feed (64%) and you get 0.264 lbs, which is about 1/4 lb, in which case the 1 cup of Noble Goat is sufficient (assuming it weighs 1/4 lb).

Now, if you want to use corn, you divide 0.169 by 0.88 and you get 0.19 lbs, which means the goats can get 1/5 lb of corn daily. I don't know about you, but I would finish off your bag of Noble Goat and switch to corn as you feed less AND it's cheaper. This is all assuming you're still feeding alfalfa mix hay. If you switch to a grass hay, such as orchard, then you will need to redo the calculations for how much feed to give.

And if you want to cut the hay back even more (which I don't recommend because they need long stemmed roughage for their rumens to continue working and hay is a relatively cheap feed source on a per lb basis) you can substitute hay pellets for hay. It is essentially the same thing, it is just chopped up hay compressed into a pellet. It may have binders, such as molasses in there, but you will need to check the label. Alfalfa and timothy pellets are a lot more expensive than regular hay.

And as for males having alfalfa--it is beneficial because the amount of calcium in alfalfa helps break a part urinary stones caused by an excess of phosphorus in the ration (grain is usually high in phosphorus, so if you want to feed corn to save money then you need to continue to feed alfalfa; Noble Goat is a balanced feed and will have more calcium in it than phosphorus). The ideal ratio is at least 2x as much calcium as phosphorus, but not more than 7x.

I hope this helped!


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## lilcheeks (Jul 24, 2015)

Wow, although I can't say I fully get it yet, I will re-read until I totally understand.   Thank you so much!


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## lilcheeks (Jul 24, 2015)

Okay, now I have a couple followup questions if you don't mind.  

1. You mention a 44 lb goat is gaining 1/5-1/4lbs each day, where does the weight gaining number come from?  My current goats are 22lbs, so do those numbers apply?

2.  How do you know how much TDN and CP they need to gain weight?  Is there a calculation based off their current weight and age?

3. While calculating dry matter, you said 1.335 x 17% = 0.22695, but i get 0.0289.  Also the 1.335 x 60% = 0.801, but I get 0.36.  Am i not following something correctly?

I really want to make sure I follow this as I am creating a spreadsheet calculator to make it easier, and because i'm nerdy like that. 

Thanks!


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## SheepGirl (Jul 28, 2015)

1. The weight gaining number comes from how much weight your goats are gaining on a daily basis, or how much they SHOULD be gaining with proper nutrition. If your goats are 22 lbs, it is still possible for them to be gaining that much weight daily. But I don't think NDs or Pygmies gain that fast (0.2 to 0.25 lbs/day). Maybe they do, you will have to ask breeders. @OneFineAcre @goatwhisperer

2. Google "Goat Nutrient Requirements" -- I came across a few. One is a PowerPoint presentation titled "Goat Nutrition: Feeds & Feeding" published by the Oregon State University Extension Service. That is where I got the original 44 lb requirements from. They reference those numbers from "Nutrient Requirements of Small Ruminants" (2006). Being that your goats are smaller, I continued searching for other sources with other weights listed. That led me "Nutrient Requirements of the Goat" published by the West Virginia State University Extension Service. They reference "Nutrient Requirements of Domestic Animals No. 15 Nutrient Requirements of Goats."

Here are two charts I found useful.



 


 

So because your goats are 22 lbs, you would take the numbers from the first chart where the body weight is at 22 lbs and add them to the numbers from the second chart based on weight gain (more than likely 0.11 or 0.22 lbs/day).

0.35 lbs TDN maintenance + 0.22 lbs TDN growth = 0.57 lbs TDN requirement
0.05 lbs CP maintenance + 0.03 lbs CP growth = 0.08 lbs CP requirement

You would then do the feed calculations for those new requirements.

3. For the first one, 1.335 x 17% (or 0.17 typed in the calculator) = 0.22695. Your result is only 2.2%. I retyped it in and got the same thing. Same with 1.335 x 60% (or 0.6 typed in the calculator). This time your result is only 27%. The percentages that were multiplied by (17% and 60%) were the feed values of the alfalfa hay.

And there is a spreadsheet for balancing rations that makes things so much easier. I created one to make my chicken feed also (I googled chicken nutrient requirements and applied the same principles). This is the one I use for my sheep: http://media.wix.com/ugd/aded98_31bc952b9ce240df90b4887171815e14.xlsx?dn=2013UMESheepRation.xlsx

It appears there is now a goat one also. Go to the MD Small Ruminant Page > Resources > Spreadsheets > Nutrition


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## nstone630 (Aug 11, 2015)

lkmartin1230 said:


> I prefer Timothy grass. But, the alfalfa pellets are just as good. I have never had wether but, have bucks, and does.


 I have a question about the alfalfa pellets. at Tractor Supply they have these, but it's listed for Horses, is it still ok? I'm new to this as well....and still learning about this feeding thing. And I'm feeding Dumar pellets with a small bit of sweet for desert in the evenings. Should I just mix the alfalfa pellets and the Dumar together at feeding time?


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## SheepGirl (Aug 11, 2015)

I believe they list it for horses so they can charge more for it. It should all still be the same. Check the ingredients list for added ingredients (such as vitamin/mineral supplements etc). I don't know of any horse/goat relationships that are toxic/deficient.

And you can mix feed, but if they are anything like mine, they will eat the hay pellets last, if at all.


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## lkmartin1230 (Aug 11, 2015)

All of it is the same, both my horses, and my goats eat it.


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## nstone630 (Aug 12, 2015)

Good to know! Thanks!!!


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