# Is it ok to have our sheep forage and browse in our Eucalyptus forest?



## soarwitheagles (Jan 7, 2016)

Hi again everyone!

Total newbie here.  Never had sheep or goats ever before.

I have so many questions about feeding sheep.  I am posting here in the hopes of learning more.

Presently we have 10 very pregnant American Blackbelly ewes, one American Blackbelly ram, and two young Dorper female lambs.  I have planted a few acres of a seed mixture of perennial rye/crimson clover/nitro persian clover/ blando brom/white clover/antas subterranean clover/chicory/ and birdsfoot trefoil.

Planted most of this pasture mixture in November, but now, a lot of it is already over 6" high!  *When would be a good time to let the sheep graze these areas?  Should I mow the fields a few times before allowing the sheep out to graze?*

Not so sure the mixture is correct.  I sure wish I had found this forum BEFORE we planted!

And I now kinda wish I had included a greater percentage of clover....

Well, here are some more of the questions racing through my mind...

*What would be a good sheep pasture mix to use here in Central Valley area of California?*

The back 10 acres have massive amounts of grass growing under the Eucalyptus trees.  *Would it be ok to permit the sheep to graze the forested areas?*  Side note: there are massive amounts of eucalyptus leaves, branches, etc. on the floor of the forest too.  My neighbors have grazed goats under their Eucalyptus trees for years with no problems at all.

Also, there were small numbers of both large and small eucalyptus trees in the sheep pen we recently built and the sheep stripped the eucalyptus trees of the bark, ate all the leaves they could reach, and appear to be happy as ever!

But to release the sheep into the forest area would grant them access to massive amounts of eucalyptus trees, bark, branches, dead leaves, etc.

This specific forest I am speaking of has never had any livestock grazing upon it, so it is literally loaded.

I thought about letting the flock or a few sheep out for an hour at a time and see if it works...but not so sure that is a good idea!

*Oh, I read somewhere that both American Blackbelly and the Dorpers not only graze, but unlike a lot of other sheep, they also browse....is it true?  It would be so nice to have the forested areas all cleaned up and all for free!*

Open to any and all ideas!

Thank you!

Soar


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 10, 2016)

Wow,

No replies!  Should I rephrase my questions or have you any other suggestions?


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## norseofcourse (Jan 10, 2016)

My sheep love to browse, too - but we don't have any eucalyptus here so I don't know about it.  If it's something they can eat, I think limiting their time till their systems are used to it sounds good.


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## babsbag (Jan 11, 2016)

I think that Eucalyptus in a rare tree in most parts of the US. Koalas eat them but they aren't even mammals so no comparison. A quick Google says this _

"The short answer is that yes, there are toxic chemicals in eucalyptus, but the animal has to eat a lot in order to experience toxicity.  I’ve known a few goats who’ve spent most of their lives grazing the fallen leaves of the eucalyptus with no discernible ill-effects"_

_"From www.scionresearch.com (forestry research co in Rotorua):

*Foliage for stock fodder*
Sheep, cattle and deer readily eat the leaves of a number of eucalypt species. Eucalypts offer an advantage over willows and poplars because they are less vulnerable to seasonal moisture deficiency.
The following points have been noted in Southland:
Leaves, bark and small twigs of E. gunnii are palatable and at times they are more attractive than grass.
Any eucalypt that is palatable to rabbits, hares and possums will be readily eaten by livestock. Possums do not browse E. glaucescens or E. neglecta and sheep and cattle will rarely eat leaves of these species even if fodder is scarce.
There is considerable scope for research into the establishment of eucalypt fodder banks, particularly the identification of suitable varieties and management techniques. The ability of eucalypts to withstand periodic drought, together with their rapidity of growth, suggests that they have real potential as an option for supplementary fodder.
Note that the foliage of E. cladocalyx (Sugar Gum, yellow-orange mottled bark) is palatable but can be toxic to stock when eaten in any quantity."_

I think that your idea of letting them out for a few hours at a time is a good one but it looks like it will be ok for them. But I would take any new food slow.

I have no pasture, no sheep, and no experience on planting pasture.


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## Bossroo (Jan 11, 2016)

Since I have no experience with pasturing sheep in the euk trees, and since you are close enough to UCD for a phone / personal conversation ... I would cunsult with a faculty member at the Veterinary Pathology Dept. and for your pastures ( you are too heavy on the clovers, I would add  endophyte free fescue and other grasses that thrive in your dry environment [ unless irrigated for summer feed]overseed with  barley for spring feed should help with the feed bill too . To prevent bloat and too runny feces on your lush pastures ( feces covered behinds will result in fly strike... to acclimate the sheeps' gut flora to the lush pasture ... start by full feeding the sheep some low quality hay such as dry grass hay, then turn them out on the pasture for 15 min. for 3 days, then full feed them poor quality hay and 1/2 hour for 3 more days, then feed hay and turn out to pasture for 1 hour for 3 days then it should be safe to turn them out on pasture for 1/2 day for 3 days , Then they should be fine to pasture for a day.Quality alfalfa hay is the best feed during the HOT summers and fall when the pastures go dormant . I would consult with a faculty member in the Animal Husbandry Dept. , Sheep Dept..


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 11, 2016)

babsbag said:


> I think that Eucalyptus in a rare tree in most parts of the US. Koalas eat them but they aren't even mammals so no comparison. A quick Google says this
> _
> "The short answer is that yes, there are toxic chemicals in eucalyptus, but the animal has to eat a lot in order to experience toxicity.  I’ve known a few goats who’ve spent most of their lives grazing the fallen leaves of the eucalyptus with no discernible ill-effects"_
> 
> ...



babsbag,

Wow, I never realized just how rare these trees are in the USA.  Here in California, there are massive groves of Eucalyptus trees in many different areas, so I was under the assumption they were everywhere.

I will let the sheep in the forest a little at a time.  Who knows, maybe they will begin to smell real nice!



Bossroo said:


> Since I have no experience with pasturing sheep in the euk trees, and since you are close enough to UCD for a phone / personal conversation ... I would cunsult with a faculty member at the Veterinary Pathology Dept. and for your pastures ( you are too heavy on the clovers, I would add  endophyte free fescue and other grasses that thrive in your dry environment [ unless irrigated for summer feed]overseed with  barley for spring feed should help with the feed bill too . To prevent bloat and too runny feces on your lush pastures ( feces covered behinds will result in fly strike... to acclimate the sheeps' gut flora to the lush pasture ... start by full feeding the sheep some low quality hay such as dry grass hay, then turn them out on the pasture for 15 min. for 3 days, then full feed them poor quality hay and 1/2 hour for 3 more days, then feed hay and turn out to pasture for 1 hour for 3 days then it should be safe to turn them out on pasture for 1/2 day for 3 days , Then they should be fine to pasture for a day.Quality alfalfa hay is the best feed during the HOT summers and fall when the pastures go dormant . I would consult with a faculty member in the Animal Husbandry Dept. , Sheep Dept..





Bossroo said:


> Since I have no experience with pasturing sheep in the euk trees, and since you are close enough to UCD for a phone / personal conversation ... I would cunsult with a faculty member at the Veterinary Pathology Dept. and for your pastures ( you are too heavy on the clovers, I would add  endophyte free fescue and other grasses that thrive in your dry environment [ unless irrigated for summer feed]overseed with  barley for spring feed should help with the feed bill too . To prevent bloat and too runny feces on your lush pastures ( feces covered behinds will result in fly strike... to acclimate the sheeps' gut flora to the lush pasture ... start by full feeding the sheep some low quality hay such as dry grass hay, then turn them out on the pasture for 15 min. for 3 days, then full feed them poor quality hay and 1/2 hour for 3 more days, then feed hay and turn out to pasture for 1 hour for 3 days then it should be safe to turn them out on pasture for 1/2 day for 3 days , Then they should be fine to pasture for a day.Quality alfalfa hay is the best feed during the HOT summers and fall when the pastures go dormant . I would consult with a faculty member in the Animal Husbandry Dept. , Sheep Dept..



Bossroo,

Incredible insights and advice, and I will do exactly as you have suggested.

I am also glad you shared with me how to "introduce" our sheep to the pasture!  I would have simply opened the gate and let them go!  And may have also had to collect dead super bloated sheep!

BTW, the clover is still very small, very close to the ground where as the rye grass is already 6-8 inches in many areas...I read somewhere that if I let the sheep graze now, they will mostly eat the grass down and then the clover will have more light and grow more...wow, now I am not sure what to do.

I read an article from Cornell Univeristy by Ulf Kintzel where the gentleman is encouraging people to grow pasture with 50%-70% clover!  So that is why I began to add more clover seed to our pasture mix.  Now I am not sure what to do...anyway, here is his article:

http://smallfarms.cornell.edu/2012/04/02/the-“perfect”-sheep-pasture/

He does live on the opposite coast.

Can you help me find the website for UCD Animal Husbandry Dept. , Sheep Dept?

Thank you!


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## Baymule (Jan 11, 2016)

No Eucalyptus trees here, have zero experience with them. I have what might be a silly question...... so you turn the sheep out on this lush pasture for the specified length of time and then you put them back up. You already stuffed them full with hay, then they had "dessert" and now you want them to leave the candy store and come back home. Just how do you convince them that the dry lot is soooo much better than that nasty ol' lush verdant pasture?


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 11, 2016)

Baymule said:


> No Eucalyptus trees here, have zero experience with them. I have what might be a silly question...... so you turn the sheep out on this lush pasture for the specified length of time and then you put them back up. You already stuffed them full with hay, then they had "dessert" and now you want them to leave the candy store and come back home. Just how do you convince them that the dry lot is soooo much better than that nasty ol' lush verdant pasture?



Baymule,

Thanks again for your reply.  I am not sure if you are asking me or someone else your question...

Remember, I have little to no experience at all raising sheep.  I have done lots of reading, but compared to real sheep ranchers, I am sure I have no clue whatsoever what I am doing...

So here is my plan [not sure if it is gonna work]:

Our sheep have never eaten from our pasture yet.  I am presently "training" these sheep.  Here is what I am doing:

I feed them only hay for some days.  Then, I prepare a very nice combo of various grains...Next, I will pick up two aluminum pans and clash them loudly together.  Then I will enter the sheep pen and give them the grain.

At first, they ran very swiftly away from me each and every time.  Now, after about 3 weeks of this ruse, they run swiftly toward me.  In fact, I feel a little afraid entering the sheep pen because they run up to me and get real close...some even let me pet them and I hand feed as many as I can, but provide grain for all of them.

My understanding [please correct me if I am wrong], is, when I would like to bring the sheep in from the pastureland, I will have some grain ready, then, loudly bang the aluminum pans together, and walk to the pen where I normally give them the grain.  I am hoping they will gladly run into the pen, see their good shepard, holding the aluminum pans full of good grain, and begin to eat the good grain as I happily lock the good sheep pen gate behind them...

Please tell this is gonna work somebody!

Soar


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## babsbag (Jan 11, 2016)

Hope it works for you, I don't know sheep, but it would work for goats. If not, get a Border Collie.


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## norseofcourse (Jan 12, 2016)

That sounds like a plan!

Do you generally feed them the grain about the same time of day?  If so, use that, too.  Say for example you feed them at 4pm, and you only want them in the pastureland for 15 minutes - then let them into the pastureland about a quarter till 4 the first day.  At 4, do the grain routine.  If you vary the time of day you feed the grain, this may not matter as much.

How much grain do you give them?  They'll be coming in with their bellies fuller than normal with new food, so if you can decrease it while still giving them just enough to be happy to come in for grain, that might not be a bad thing.

Sheep generally learn routines quickly, especially if they involve food.  Think of a backup plan just in case, and good luck!


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## Bossroo (Jan 12, 2016)

Soar and Baymule too...I would introduce the sheep to the new pasture in the afternoon toward evening ( the sheep would be more read to go nighty night in their night pen with a full belly)when the forage in the pasture is dry from the morning dew or if it is foggy or raining I would't turn them out that day. Too much moisture and the sheep would get the running trots, which in turn translates to a possible dirty butt and then fly strike.  Since the sheep have almost a full belly from the poorer hay and then eating the green grass, they will be full and about ready to come in especially if they know that clanking of pans means grain.  If the sheep are reluctant to come in, I would recommend that you buy a sheperd's crook ( a long stick with a crook on one end wich is used to catch a sheep by it's hind leg ) which acts as an extention of your hand to incourage and guide the sheep where you want them to go.  Or a well trained sheep dog ( Border Collie or NcNabb) ... guard dogs are great in protecting sheep but next to useless in working sheep in a pasture or corral. Put the guard dog up and away from it's sheep before you work the sheep with a herding dog or you would have a dog fight.    A well trained sheep dog will be your best friend and helper , so it will save you much labor as well as a few choice cuss words especially when one has a more primitive sheep such as the American black bellies that you have.  You can Google for UCD information. As for that Cornell article... it works well in the East where rain fall is plentifull during the Summer, but I am sure that rain is quite rare in Central Cal. in the Summer/ Fall when the pastures turn a golden brown without irrigation.  If you notice that the auther of that article wants his lambs to finish 3-6 months of age with a target weight of 80-90 lbs.  You will be hard pressed to achieve this in the time frame .  The Black bellies genetics for rate of meat gain will need about twice the time and at that point they will be mutton, which brings a much lower price.  I would convert them to the Dorper sheep to achieve the stated goals and reap a profit. Also,  Since the Dorper ewes breed year round, I would breed them in June, July, Aug. so that the lambs are born in Nov. ealy Dec. to take advantage of the new green pastures before the pastures go dormant in late May early June before you have to feed them purchased hay and grain.  Dorper lambs should be finished mostly on pasture by this time and ready to be processed == more profit.


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## Baymule (Jan 12, 2016)

@soarwitheagles that was a tongue in cheek question.  I think that is a good plan. I move my sheep from their pasture to another pasture down the driveway. When  feed them, I call SHEEP! SHEEP! SHEEP! They come running, baa-baaing. They also come running to a coffee can of feed when I shake it.

So when I move them to pasture #2, I open the gate, calling SHEEP! SHEEP! SHEEP! and they follow me, sometimes nibbling my fingers. I open gate to pasture #2 and they go right in. In the evening, they already come to the gate, ready to go back home.

@Bossroo, I did as you described. I waited until late afternoon to move the sheep from pasture #1 to pasture #2. They got a belly full and were easy to lure back to their shelter with a can of feed.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 13, 2016)

People here are so funny.  Thank you for making this an exciting, fun, and smiling adventure.

Bossroo, you were not joking about UC Davis Animal Science Department.  Two of their top professors responded within 8 hours to my emailed questions and inquiries.  Wow, that was fast!

Here are some of the suggestions they gave me:

When asked if 30% clover was too much on our pasture mix, this is the reply they gave me:

My only suggestion on the pasture mix, reduce the Rye and increase the clover and birdsfoil to 25% or more(each).  Sheep prefer broad leaf plants/legumes over grasses.”

_So these professors are advocating 50% or more of the clover/birdsfoil mix!  This is very different than what I have read at many other websites...and I find this very interesting!_

Someone here asked us how much grain are we feeding our sheep right now?

Well, to be 100% honest with you, I never even considered feeding our sheep grain!  I was hoping to do the pasture feeding all year round...and I never even thought of having to purchase any hay.  When my neighbor friend and rancher informed me I needed to purchase 60 bales of hay to get these sheep through the winter, I nearly pee-ed my pants!  Next thing you know, we have 60 fresh bales of hay in our Ag building and I was left wondering if we will go bankrupt within the first year...

After having some of these sheep for about 6 weeks, I read an interesting article at small holdings and sheep 101...

Small holdings recommend this and I quote:

*Good quality forage – hay, haylage or silage – will continue to be the mainstay of the ewes’ diet, but as the lambs grow her rumen capacity is reduced, so feeding a good quality concentrate (minimum 18% protein) will ensure she receives adequate nutrition.  Eight weeks before lambing, start giving a small daily feed of 0.25kg per ewe per day – this will enable the rumen microbes to adjust to the change in diet, and it will help get the ewes used to your presence each day.  Make sure that the ewes have enough trough space so they can all feed at the same time, otherwise a weaker ewe might miss out on her full ration. 

TIP: If you’re unsure about the quality of your forage, consider having it analysed for energy, protein, vitamins and minerals: if your forage is top quality, you can save money by feeding fewer concentrates. 

If any of your ewes are looking poor (condition score 2.5 or lower), ask your vet to carry out a blood test up to 4 weeks before lambing to determine their nutritional, vitamin and mineral status.  This will allow sufficient time to correct the diet if deficiencies are identified, and is especially important if any of your breeding ewes are yearlings; since they are still growing themselves, their nutritional requirement is higher than that of the mature ewe.

Six weeks before lambing, step up the concentrates to 0.5kg per ewe per day, and then 0.75kg (split into morning and evening feeds) for the following 2 weeks, rising to 1kg per ewe, again split into 2 feeds, for the last two weeks.  This feeding regime, designed for a lowland flock, fits in with the lambs’ growth rate during the final stage of pregnancy.*

Sheep 101 recommend this:



*


Supplementation
Grain is often fed to sheep with higher nutritional needs, such as pregnant ewes during late gestation, ewes nursing two or more lambs, and lambs with the genetic potential for rapid growth. Grain is the seed part of cereal crops such as corn, barley, wheat, and oats. It is not "unnatural" for sheep to eat grain. They have always eaten the seeds of plants.

A protein source, such as soybean meal or cottonseed meal is usually added to the grain ration, along with vitamins and minerals to make a 100 percent nutritionally-balanced feed. Unbalanced grain rations can lead to a variety of health concerns.

Sheep love the taste of grain and can experience digestive problems if they eat too much grain too fast. Grain consumption needs to be regulated, introduced slowly and gradually increased in the diet.

Ruminants, such as sheep, should always have some roughage (fibrous feed) in their diets. at least a pound per day for sheep. Producers in many parts of the world cannot afford to feed grain to their livestock. Whereas in some parts of the U.S. and in some years, grain is a more economical source of nutrients that forage.
*
*What have I done and how have I responded to all this new info?

I just began feeding our sheep grain this very week after giving them only hay for weeks!

Hope I am making the correct decisions on this.

Please share your advice and insights with me.  We really would like to lambs to be healthy!

Thanks again,

Soar*


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## norseofcourse (Jan 14, 2016)

My sheep prefer the weeds/shrubs/vines/trees over the grasses, too, and I think the variety is good for them.  Future plans are to seed parts of my pasture with things like chicory and lambs-quarters (wild-harvested seed) among others.

Research is great, but don't drive yourself crazy (been there, done that, as I have a tendancy to overthink things lol).  There is no perfect pasture mix, no 'only right way' to raise sheep.  Read and learn, but do what works for you and your sheep.  I feed a 14% concentrate.  I tried adding soybean meal but the sheep didn't eat it, so I quit that.  A friend with a commercial flock feeds corn, but only in late gestation and the first part of nursing.  Corn is only about 9% protein.  Her sheep are in great shape and she averages over 2 lambs per ewe.  I feed a mineral mix, she feeds a kelp/mineral mix.  We both feed hay in the winter.  Her pastures are more grassy, mine are more weedy.  I think she has a better rate of gain than mine do - but we have different breeds, and she's been doing this much longer.

Can you get close enough to your sheep to body condition score them?  Google the process for some good pictures and explanations if you haven't seen it already.  That will help you keep track of how your sheep are doing.

I think you're doing great.  When are your sheep due to start lambing?  Did you (or will you) vaccinate them about a month before due dates?  Got your lambing supplies together?  Lambing can drive you a special kind of crazy.  My first year, I think I memorized every malpresentation possible!  But both deliveries were perfectly normal.  I'm sure your sheep will do fine, and you'll do your very best for them.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 14, 2016)

Thanks for your reply norseofcourse!

I like to do lots of reading and join lots of forums so I can learn and hopefully avoid lots of mistakes.  I believe wisdom is found in the multitude of counsel.

I am beginning to realize more and more just how ignorant I have been!  My idea was to purchase some sheep, put up a fence, celebrate because I know longer have to mow the fields [up to 6 hours per week at times], and 9 months later, miraculously find some nice lamb roast cooked and ready to eat on my table!  Now I am beginning to see more and more I was in dreamland.

The same thing happened after obtaining our first beehive.  I thought you simply put the bees in the box, come back a few months later, and eat all the honey you want for the rest of your life!

So, live and learn and in these specific adventures, learn a lot!

I will google body condition score later today.  I did some reading about it, but I need a refresher course before I actually do it.  The sheep appear super healthy right now.

Some ewes are due any day.  Other ewes, in a few weeks.  Two ewes, I think in May [I saw our male ram doing his hanky panky on these two ewes this week].  I have not made our lambing kits yet.  Thank you for the reminder.  Will do it this week.

No shots given for prebirth time frame [each ewe is in different stages of pregnancy and I have no clue when they will drop the lambs].  Was thinking of waiting and giving the shots to the lambs.

Presently we are feeding the sheep approximately 1lb. of grain every two days.  I found a wonderful deal on grain at Tractor Supply after someone dumped some type of ink on a bunch of 50lb bags of grain.  Each bag was 20% off.  But I read the grain should offer 16% minimum protein, and the TS grain does not meet this need.

Today, I am driving to Elk Grove Milling.  They have a Sheep Mix that is well known and well liked and is shipped all over the nation.  Here is what they say about it:

*Sheep Mix™*
Click here to print the Sheep Mix™ feed tag

Sheep Mix™ is a complete pelleted feed that contains all the daily requirements of vitamins and Zinpro minerals sheep need with no added copper. Sheep Mix™ is specially formulated for sheep, 16% protein, 3% fat and is a 5/32” pellet, easier for the sheep to eat. Can be fed to goats.

*FEEDING DIRECTIONS*

Specially designed for sheep. Feed at 1lb to 1.5lbs per 100lbs of the animal’s weight each day. Provide fresh, clean water at all times except to hot, tired animals. Store feed in a cool, dry place.

*GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:*

Crude Protein Minimum 16.0%
Crude Fat Minimum 3.0%
Crude Fiber Maximum 20.0%
Ash Maximum 4.5%
Calcium Maximum 0.9%
Phosphorus Minimum 0.4%
*INGREDIENTS:*

Alfalfa Hay, Soybean Meal, Distillers Dried Grains , Almond Hulls, Rice Bran, Mix Hay, Cane Molasses, Salt, Ground Limestone, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium and Dicalcium Phosphate, Sodium Selenite, Magnesium Oxide, Mineral Oil, Zinc Sulphate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Cobalt Carbonate

So this is my plan for now.  Sure hope it works.  The rancher who sold these sheep to us is now a really good friend.  He told us to expect twins and triplets from most of the ewes.  Wow, I suppose the flock will experience significant growth and I kinda like that.


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## Bossroo (Jan 14, 2016)

UCD has irrigated pastures so clovers grow lush and for much longer into fall then reseed and go dormant .  Do you have irrigated pastures? If dryland, clovers will form seed then go dormant by late May .  I would also pland a cerial crop such as barley in late Oct.,that grows very well in our mild winters and will stand a fair amount of grazing at 6+" high  and grow fast enough to provide additional dry feed during the dry no rain time of Summer.  The endophyte free fescue is a perannual, so will go dormant in late May and  will provide lots of winter forage also the clovers too.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 14, 2016)

norseofcourse said:


> That sounds like a plan!
> 
> Do you generally feed them the grain about the same time of day?  If so, use that, too.  Say for example you feed them at 4pm, and you only want them in the pastureland for 15 minutes - then let them into the pastureland about a quarter till 4 the first day.  At 4, do the grain routine.  If you vary the time of day you feed the grain, this may not matter as much.
> 
> ...





Bossroo said:


> UCD has irrigated pastures so clovers grow lush and for much longer into fall then reseed and go dormant .  Do you have irrigated pastures? If dryland, clovers will form seed then go dormant by late May .  I would also pland a cerial crop such as barley in late Oct.,that grows very well in our mild winters and will stand a fair amount of grazing at 6+" high  and grow fast enough to provide additional dry feed during the dry no rain time of Summer.  The endophyte free fescue is a perannual, so will go dormant in late May and  will provide lots of winter forage also the clovers too.



Norseofcourse,

Been feeding these sheep about one pound of grain every other day.  My neighbor suggested I only give about a cup per day per sheep otherwise, could be lots of breech births due to over sized lambs.  I like your idea of establishing a grain routine.

Bossroo,

It sounds as if you live locally here!  Is it true?  We planted dryland pasture, but I am considering irrigating anywhere from .5 up to 2 full acres.  But some friends tell me that can get expensive and not worth it.  I will probably experiment with small areas first and see how it goes.

I am kicking myself in the tail because I did not plant more fava beans...This is the first year I have ever experimented with planting fava beans.  We planted a 30'x25' area and obtained a 100% sprout rate!  Now I wish I had simply planted a full acre or more.  The reason is the cost is for seed only [naturally occuring rainfall from Nov. - March].  I read a few articles about how fava beans/plants make an incredibly rich silage. We would harvest the plants and while they plants are still fresh, run them through a chipper, then cover the chopped up fava beans/plants with plastic.  Then it ferments and makes an incredibly protein rich supplement and the cost would be almost free!  We discovered this year that fava beans grow well Nov.-March with no water at all.  Wow, what an incredible return for simply planting them!  I am so glad we experimented this year.  We hope to plant a lot more for next year.

I will look into the cereal crops you have mentioned.  Are there other options beside the barley and the fescue?  

Finally, where do you live?

Thanks,

Soar


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## Bossroo (Jan 15, 2016)

Soar... Since you asked,  I grew up in Davis, Cal. Retired and now we live in  a small town in SW Washington. I believe that when one starts any endevor one should make a profit so choose one that not only gives one pleasure but makes one a PROFIT.  While a hobby with pets , or feel good animals is a guaranteed moneypit.  The barley and endofite free fescue probably are the easiest and least expensive feed that you can raise under your climatic and land conditions.  There are probably others, but do a small scale run first. You can try a sprouted barley untill it grows to several inches tall and feed all types of animals, but it is a little pricy to set up as it requires a refrigerated room and a hydroponic type set up to sprout and grow it for a few days before it is fed year round, but cheep to do later. I would recommend that you feed the grain daily, but the quantity fed you should vary depending on the sheeps' body condition, number and size of lambs being suckled, amount and quality of forage , season of the year,  stop grain when weaning for about 2 weeks, they start again to flush the ewes for being rebred. Creep feed the lambs for maximum gain as soon as they start to eat , then increase the amount prior to sales.  Keep your ram seperate from the ewes to concentrate the lamb crop in a short a time as possible.  Lambs born out of the majority of the other lambs tend to NOT do well and sell at a discount, if sell at all.  I would seperate the 2 Dorper ewe lambs immediatly away from the ram if they are not bred already since they could start cycling much earlier then the black bellies.  ` As for silage... Several years ago , a firm in Texas made a huge campaign at deap dicount in the Fresno area for their bagged silage for all types of livestock.  I baught 4 bags to feed  to my 32 horses.  I gave a small amount of the silage to each horse in the morning and before I fed them their grain and hay.  Not a single one would eat it past a trial nibble.  Not even when not fed anything else for 24 hrs. .  Total BUST !!!. Hogs and cows, especially dairy cows, eat it well.  8 months later they pulled out of the area as sales were quite low and the feed stores stoped reordering it. For your reading pleasure : " Sheep Science" by William Garfield Kamlade professor of sheep husbandry U of Ill. JD Liooincitt Co.1947 you probably can find it at a library.  One of the best information books  around in the US sheep haydays . The textbook used to teach animal husbandry at the University level, "Animal Agriculture" by HH Cole and WN Garrett second edition WH Freeman and co. 1974.  I have worked for HH Cole and for or with some of the UCD authors listed in this book.  Enjoy !!!


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 16, 2016)

Bossroo,

After reading your posted credentials, I wanted to find the nearest hole and climb quickly into it!

My goodness, you have such an incredibly rich heritage and background and experience with animal husbandry.  My animal husbandry consists of 4 hamsters when I was in 4th grade [they ate each other], a couple of pigeons in 5th grade, a dog in middle school, and then a 35 year break from all animals.

Oh, I almost forgot...we did pick up some chickens when we moved to this ranch...

So in all honesty, I am less than a preschooler when it comes to understanding and caring for animals...

I am so happy there is a website like this [BYH] and I am also so happy there are people like you that hang out here!

I will separate the Dorpers as you have suggested as soon as I can build another sheep pen.

I am now glad we started small time on the fava beans.  We can now experiment and see if the sheep will like them.

Speaking of experiments...today I decided to "mow" and collect some of the new pastureland we planted.  I was so excited to see what the sheep would do with it.  Mowed the field, caught the grass and clover and forbs in the back of the mower, and then threw some in the grain box in the sheep pen...then watched carefully to see and observe what would happen...

Good news: the sheep came over and began to eat the freshly cut grass and clover and forbs mixture.  They finished the first batch in a couple of minutes, so I threw in another small batch of this mixture.  They ate that too.  Finally, threw in a third round and they went at it again.  Finally, fearing the much read about and dreaded BLOAT, I refrained from feeding them anymore.  But I did cut a lot more to feed them tomorrow and for the next few days.  This is beginning to be so exciting.  Now I cannot wait to turn them out to pasture.  I will be careful to take everyone's advice to do it a little at a time.

Thanks again everyone for your help!

Soar

PS posted pics of the sheep and the freshly cut grass and clover and forbs mixture.


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## Bossroo (Jan 17, 2016)

Looking at the photo that you just posted,  and them being pregnant , they need an increase in  their body condition, I would increase their grain ration pronto. Feed that green stuff sparingly ( after you full feed them their hay and grain ration just give them enough for them to clean up within 15 min )or they will shoot it out of their rear ends like out of a hose as their gut bacteria are not used to fresh green feed.   Edit to add :  I would say that it would be wise to limit the amount of different animals that you keep on your ranch.  Sheep and chickens ( go with the specialists :  Cornish X for meat and  Leghorns or their derivatives for eggs.  The so called dual purpose ones are only mediocre for each catagory and take too much time as well as labor) are fine, but increasing to other species and noone will be able to thrive as they should...  Remember the old Scottish proverb ... "  The eye of the master fatens the cattle. "  This applies to all animals that one keeps.


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## Baymule (Jan 17, 2016)

Bossroo is our resident expert. I have learned much from his words of wisdom. Because of him, I chose Dorpers. I am a sheep newbie too, but have haunted BYH for the last 5 years, gleaning information for others much more experienced than I. Even with all this packed in my head, I am a total noob.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 18, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> Looking at the photo that you just posted,  and them being pregnant , they need an increase in  their body condition, I would increase their grain ration pronto. Feed that green stuff sparingly ( after you full feed them their hay and grain ration just give them enough for them to clean up within 15 min )or they will shoot it out of their rear ends like out of a hose as their gut bacteria are not used to fresh green feed.   Edit to add :  I would say that it would be wise to limit the amount of different animals that you keep on your ranch.  Sheep and chickens ( go with the specialists :  Cornish X for meat and  Leghorns or their derivatives for eggs.  The so called dual purpose ones are only mediocre for each catagory and take too much time as well as labor) are fine, but increasing to other species and noone will be able to thrive as they should...  Remember the old Scottish proverb ... "  The eye of the master fatens the cattle. "  This applies to all animals that one keeps.



Wow!  I didn't realize they are underweight...if you look at them sideways, some of them appear as if they have large saddle bags!  I am certain several of them will have triplets.  I will double up on the grain.  Remember, I did not feed them even one morsel of grain for the first 3 weeks when I first purchased them...it was more out of ignorance rather than on purpose.  I will also do the body condition test on each of them.

I was surprised on how much they liked the green cuttings.  One thing that impressed me was that they appeared to know when to stop eating the freshly cut greens.  They would eat several servings, then not touch it for the rest of the day.  I kind of like that!  Perhaps they will know how to self monitor and avoid the bloat!

At his very moment, all the sheep are in the sheep manger...we are presently at this moment experiencing the strongest storm of the season and boy do we desperately need it!  I am so happy to have built a new sheep pen with walls and a roof.  This morning, we also finished the roof on the chicken coop.  So we are finally prepared for this El Nino.  Thanks again Bossroo for all your good advice!



Baymule said:


> Bossroo is our resident expert. I have learned much from his words of wisdom. Because of him, I chose Dorpers. I am a sheep newbie too, but have haunted BYH for the last 5 years, gleaning information for others much more experienced than I. Even with all this packed in my head, I am a total noob.



Hi Baymule!

Yes, after reading Bossroo's credentials, I realized he is a precious jewel and has a wealth of knowledge and experience that all of us can learn a lot from!  I look forward to learning so much!

So you went the Dorper route!  Part of me wishes I had done the same.  I am leaning heavily in the direction of having two flocks...one with the American Blackbellies, the other with the Dorpers...

I purchased these two female lamb Dorpers from a local public auction...now I realize purchasing from a public auction is a big, big mistake.  I am not even sure if these Dorpers were fixed and I have no clue if they can have babies.  I did obtain them for a good price [$65 each if I remember correctly].  I am wondering if they will go into heat soon.  I think they are 5-6 month old.  I read somewhere to wait until they are at least 9 months old before mating them.

Please give me some good pointers on these Dorpers...I need help!


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## Bossroo (Jan 18, 2016)

Soar... judging from your photo... those " Dorper" lambs are Dorper x ?  or they may be totally of an unkown cross breed as  livestock auctions rely on someone's word as to breeds who may or may not have a clue.   Go to American Dorper Sheep Society's website  for info. I would also check with a purebred Dorper breeder that advertizes for purebred  Registerd Dorpers  and not the typical back yard owners for best information and quality animals. If they are females they are not  "fixed" ( too expensive, just ask any Vet. for the price of spaying a ewe, if they will answer at all  .  learn how to castrate a ram lamb as well as how to dock tails properly . Look for my answer to Baymule elsewere)  however, since they are in the same pen as your black belly ram, they just may be pregnant since you purchased them at auction.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 18, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> Soar... judging from your photo... those " Dorper" lambs are Dorper x ?  or they may be totally of an unkown cross breed as  livestock auctions rely on someone's word as to breeds who may or may not have a clue.   Go to American Dorper Sheep Society's website  for info. I would also check with a purebred Dorper breeder that advertizes for purebred  Registerd Dorpers  and not the typical back yard owners for best information and quality animals. If they are females they are not  "fixed" ( too expensive, just ask any Vet. for the price of spaying a ewe, if they will answer at all  .  learn how to castrate a ram lamb as well as how to dock tails properly . Look for my answer to Baymule elsewere)  however, since they are in the same pen as your black belly ram, they just may be pregnant since you purchased them at auction.



Boosroo,

I carefully read up on the Dorper X, the White Dorper, and the Dorper.  I also looked carefully at the photos of each type of sheep.  I am fairly sure the lambs we purchased at the public auction are the Dorpers.  We we able to purchase them at a very good price, but they infected our other animals with pink eye within a week.  I kind of learned my lesson the hard way I suppose.

If I ever do purchase sheep from the public auction again, I will be sure to q*uarantine* them for a minimum of 30 days.  Can't seem to beat the price at the auction, but now I realize the risks can be very high.  When I went to that auction, I spoke a lot with the purchasers.  Most buyers represented large butchering companies and were buying 100+ sheep at a time.

I do have some questions about sheep conditioning scores...

Is it possible the different breeds of sheep would score differently due to the anatomy differences?  Example, the Dorpers appear to be much more round in body, whereas the American Blackbelly are naturally more lean...

What's your thoughts on this?

I did find some really nice charts on how to score a sheep.


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## Bossroo (Jan 19, 2016)

Of coarse there is a HUGE difference in the breeds.  Look up the registries for  Marino sheep,   great wool producer but poor in meat porduction.  Take a look at the Southdown ( the original standard, not the babydoll type  as they are too small) , the Suffolk, and the Hampshire they are at the top of meat production but pretty poor at wool production. The Dorper being a new breed in the US now ranks with the all time top 3 in meat production  competition trials as they were developed to pack on muscle on poor browse and pastures. Another benefit is that they are a hair sheep, so they will shed their wool and therefore no or very little need for sheering.  Their hides are of TOP quality to make up for lack of wool sale.   Now, the Black Belly sheep are the more primitive type with little concern for meat production, so they will not come close in that department even when on lush pastures and fed grains and will take about double the time and labor to produce a higher cut of meat. Just not in their DNA.  Look at the loin in the condition chart. Now order lamb chops at your favorite restaurant and judge your meat on your plate of each type of body score .  What do you prefer ? How much would you pay for eather  lamb chop ?  Which will give you a profit or a loss ? When you talked to the buyers... what type of sheep did they buy and for whomb?  The top body score of the 100+ lots whent to buyers at the highest prices when the lambs were at the top of the bodys score and ready to butcher.  The middle body score types were purchased for less per pound since they had to go to a feed lot for 90 days before butchering.  The bottom body score go to Cambell soup type of buyers and at the bottom of the purchace price.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 21, 2016)

Thanks for sharing.  Lots of wonderful information.

But I was hoping to know if _*is it possible the different breeds of sheep would score differently due to the anatomy differences?*_ Example, the Dorpers appear to be much more round in body, whereas the American Blackbelly are naturally more lean...

Another way I might word it, is, humans have different body types such as ectomorphic, mesomorphic, or endomorphic [please see my pic].
But, would a 3.5 ectomorph sheep like a American Blackbelly register as a 2.0 endomorph sheep like the Dorper?

How might I word my question differently?

Please let me try my question this way:

Would a Dorper at a 3.5 on the condition scale look and feel different or the exact same as an American Blackbelly at a 3.5 on the condition scale?

Thank you!





Ok, one more question....

Did Audie Morphy really deserve all those World War II metals and awards?


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## Bossroo (Jan 21, 2016)

The genetics of the Black Belly is for the long and lean ( fine bones ) skeleton which also makes for long and lean muscles so instead of their fat being intersperced between their muscle fibers,( fat is what gives meat flavor as well as juiciness and tenderness )  their fat is mostly around the kidneys in the abdominal cavity  and in their intestin' connective tissues which goes to make hamburger , or  mixed with scrap meat to make sausage or to make soap.  while only a little is deposited among the muscle fibers.   So they produce a chop and leg of lamb that will grade at 3 at best, but to achieve this it will take much more time and lots of more nutrient dense feed which cuts deep into profit. Notice that the soup and other product buyers buy the canner sheep at much lower prices?   While meat sheep such as the Dorper, Southdown, Suffolk, Hampshire have heavy bone in comparison which in turn support a heavy muscle mass.  As such they convert their feed into musle meat much more efficiently. If these sheep look like the average black belly's condition ,one would be wise to check for worms, lack of feed, fox tail imbedded in the mouth / belly,  disease or injury.


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## Baymule (Jan 21, 2016)

You have two different breeds of sheep. I think you are on the right track with all this "morph" stuff.  As usual Bossroo gave you a good explanation of the difference between the two. Are you raising these sheep for your own use, to sell or both? There is nothing wrong with keeping two breeds. Maybe you could get a Dorper ram, be prepared to pay good money for a good ram, and raise lambs. Compare the two breeds and see which one best suits your needs. Or just keep both breeds. As long as you like what you are doing with them that's all that matters.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 23, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> The genetics of the Black Belly is for the long and lean ( fine bones ) skeleton which also makes for long and lean muscles so instead of their fat being intersperced between their muscle fibers,( fat is what gives meat flavor as well as juiciness and tenderness )  their fat is mostly around the kidneys in the abdominal cavity  and in their intestin' connective tissues which goes to make hamburger , or  mixed with scrap meat to make sausage or to make soap.  while only a little is deposited among the muscle fibers.   So they produce a chop and leg of lamb that will grade at 3 at best, but to achieve this it will take much more time and lots of more nutrient dense feed which cuts deep into profit. Notice that the soup and other product buyers buy the canner sheep at much lower prices?   While meat sheep such as the Dorper, Southdown, Suffolk, Hampshire have heavy bone in comparison which in turn support a heavy muscle mass.  As such they convert their feed into musle meat much more efficiently. If these sheep look like the average black belly's condition ,one would be wise to check for worms, lack of feed, fox tail imbedded in the mouth / belly,  disease or injury.



Boss,

You have an incredible depth and width and length of knowledge of sheep.  Thanks again for sharing.  Our Dorpers eat approx. 3 times as much as our average American Blackbelly and these Dorpers are already super fat [condition 4 or more]].  Local rancher friend who raises the AB's for over 10 years comes over regularly and says our Ab's look super healthy.  He did give me a strong warning regarding giving the AB's too much grain.  He stated, that if I feed too much grain [more than a cup of grain per day per animal], then, without fail, he experienced some massive problems with the Ab sheep during birthing times.

He stated if the Ab's are overfed, they have consistent problems with breach birth, lambs too big [difficulty coming out of the birth canal], and a variety of other birthing nightmares.  His statements kinda scared me.  So I am giving these pregnant ewes all the hay they can eat, fresh greens from the fields, and a tiny bit more than a cup of grain a day now in the hopes that the lambs with be correct size and healthy too.  I sure hope he is right...



Baymule said:


> You have two different breeds of sheep. I think you are on the right track with all this "morph" stuff.  As usual Bossroo gave you a good explanation of the difference between the two. Are you raising these sheep for your own use, to sell or both? There is nothing wrong with keeping two breeds. Maybe you could get a Dorper ram, be prepared to pay good money for a good ram, and raise lambs. Compare the two breeds and see which one best suits your needs. Or just keep both breeds. As long as you like what you are doing with them that's all that matters.



Bay,

We are raising these sheep as part of an experiment to create a self sustaining farm/ranch where all vegetables, fruit, starches, and meat are grown here.  Hoping to make it to the point where there is no need to go to the store if ever conditions become challenging in our nation.  I have never butchered a sheep, but I am thinking my wife and I will not be able to eat this many sheep!  So I would say we are raising sheep at this time to eat some and sell some, but most of all, to learn how to become proficient in raising our own sheep.

I am thoroughly enjoying this adventure of raising sheep.  The only part I did not like is having to catch each one and give each sheep an injection.  At first, it was hilarious because it was like playing tackle football.  I would single out one sheep, stalk her, then run and tackle her.  But I discovered that after a while, it became very tiring very quickly.  Also, I was kicked several times in the shin and my wife was headbutted once really hard [she cried real hard too and there was a large bump above her eye and for a short time, she appeared to look like one of Mike Tyson's victims].  I tried to make light of the situation by telling her the secret is to headbutt the sheep harder than they head butted her, but she didn't laugh at my joke...

Needless to say, now we have learned to jump into the sheep pen, grab two large 12ft. cow panels, corner the sheep, then push one panel toward the flock in the corner until they are bunched so tight, they cannot move hardly at all.  This appears to work well.

Another thing that helped a lot was to learn to "sit" each sheep on their butt with all four legs off the ground.  Before learning this, we were literally wrestling every sheep each time we needed to inspect or treat them.  So things are becoming easier for us now.

Hope I have answered your questions!

Have a wonderful weekend everyone!

Special note: After the worst drought in recorded history, we are receiving storm after storm after storm in this El Nino event.  We are so happy now!  Weather models are predicting a 96% chance of this frequency of rain all the way until the end of March.  There is a 68% chance of this frequency of rain all the way until the end of May!  If we receive 150% of normal snow fall in our mountains by April 1st, then the drought will finally be over.  I think we are presently at 115%.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

PS Posting a pic of big mama 1


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## Baymule (Jan 23, 2016)

I used a cow panel and a pallet to make a temporary chute for my sheep. I'll get a picture it post it for you.


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## Baymule (Jan 23, 2016)

I used a cow panel and a pallet to make a temporary chute for my sheep. I'll get a picture it post it for you.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 24, 2016)

Thanks Baymule!


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## sadieml (Jan 24, 2016)

@soarwitheagles -  My eldest sister and I both had crushes on Audie Murphy when I was a kid, and cried bitterly when he died in 1971.  If you've ever seen the movie about him (in which he starred, btw) you probably already know the answer to your own question about him.  If not, try to see it sometime, OR read this Wikipedia article on him.  Remember, he became famous as a result of his wartime exploits, not the most decorated soldier of the war due to his fame.  I think it is safe to say that YES he actually did earn all of those medals.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 24, 2016)

sadieml said:


> @soarwitheagles -  My eldest sister and I both had crushes on Audie Murphy when I was a kid, and cried bitterly when he died in 1971.  If you've ever seen the movie about him (in which he starred, btw) you probably already know the answer to your own question about him.  If not, try to see it sometime, OR read this Wikipedia article on him.  Remember, he became famous as a result of his wartime exploits, not the most decorated soldier of the war due to his fame.  I think it is safe to say that YES he actually did earn all of those medals.



Oh my!  Now you have gone and given away your age for all to see! 

Well, he sure was handsome and I can see how easy it would be to develop a crush on him!  And the young man's courage and bravery was incredible.

I desperately hope I have not offended you by calling him Audie Morphy in one of my earlier posts...I was trying to be funny...please forgive me if I did offend you.  No offense intended.

Yes, I have read about Audie Murphy extensively.  His movie, "To hell and back" was great, but if you read the documented accounts [and I am sure you have] of what this boy did on the battlefield, it is enough to command a lifetime of awe and respect and also bring tears to the eyes.

Just the other day, I was re-reading his biography, and I literally had to stop and pray, "Lord, please give me the courage You gave to Audie Murphy!"  [I presently serve in a war zone called Stockton, California.  This war zone is nothing compared to what Audie Murphy face in his day, but, I still need his kind of over the top courage on a daily basis].

sadieml, I would never question any of the metals Audie Murphy was awarded due to his exploits in World War II.  I believe he earned every one of those metals and probably should have been awarded many, many more.  Many people do not realize *he was awarded literally every military combat award for valor available from the U.S. Army.

Even to this day, Audie Murphy is the most decorated soldier in American history!
*
Audie Murphy is one of my heroes in life.

My only regret is that Audie Murphy struggled greatly with post-traumatic stress and at the time, most doctors did not know what it was or how to treat it.  But even then, Audie did not let that defeat him.  In fact he was a mouth piece that helped the government to realize more study had to be done to understand the mental and emotional effects of battle upon the soldiers returning from the wars.  What a guy!

Believe it or not, my youngest brother benefited from Audie Murphy many, many years after Audie's death.  My brother returned from Iraq with posttraumatic stress disorder.  He received marvelous help from the Veterans Administration and is doing much better now.


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## sadieml (Jan 25, 2016)

@soarwitheagles -  Dear me, no, I'm not offended at all.  (I heard a preacher say one time, if you can be offended, you WILL.)  I think everyone should toughen-up a bit, we are much too thin-skinned these days.  

I proudly admit I am 54, only barely middle-aged, since the women in my family regularly live to be 95+, and even the men usually live into their 90's.  I am glad to know that others out there are as inspired as I am by people like Audie Murphy and Alvin York and the Sullivan brothers.


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## Baymule (Jan 26, 2016)

I T-posted a cow panel about 18" to 24" from the temporary horse wire that is the sheep pen. I put a pallet at one end with T-post guides, so I can slide is away and release the sheep. I flared out the other end of the cow panel and secured it with a T-post. Hope this helps.






The small piece of plywood in the chute is my back "gate" LOL! I drop it in place with a couple of rebar pieces run through the wire to hold it in place. sorry about it being sideways.....I am extremely talented 





Here is a view from the other end. Ewe-nique photo bombed it


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 30, 2016)

norseofcourse said:


> That sounds like a plan!
> 
> Do you generally feed them the grain about the same time of day?  If so, use that, too.  Say for example you feed them at 4pm, and you only want them in the pastureland for 15 minutes - then let them into the pastureland about a quarter till 4 the first day.  At 4, do the grain routine.  If you vary the time of day you feed the grain, this may not matter as much.
> 
> ...



Thanks again for sharing your insights with us Norse!

At first, I wasn't feeding them any grain at all for the first month or so.  Next, I began to feed them every day around 4-5 pm.

I began by giving them only a small handful [I was afraid they would bloat and explode].  Then I began to very slowly increase  the volume of grain, feeding every other day.  Finally, I would fill half of a 5 gallon bucket, and feed them every day.  I noticed they will eat until content, then leave the grain in the feeder tray.  So I think these sheep know how to self-monitor and I need not worry about finding sheep body parts strewn all over the pasture because one of them overate and blew up!

Next week, we hope to begin putting up all the new fencing and let them out to pasture or into the front part of the Eucalyptus forest.  I hope to build the sheep gates for the fencing this week during the evening hours.

So that's the plan for now.

A good friend and rancher just came over this morning.  He mentioned it may take a flock of 16 sheep an entire month just to eat the grass in a .25 acre parcel next to the sheep pen!  This grass parcel grows grass all by itself each year [I did not plant it] when the rains come and the grass is presently about 12 inches high.  Woe!  Now I am wondering if I planted way too much pasture land!


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 30, 2016)

Baymule said:


> I T-posted a cow panel about 18" to 24" from the temporary horse wire that is the sheep pen. I put a pallet at one end with T-post guides, so I can slide is away and release the sheep. I flared out the other end of the cow panel and secured it with a T-post. Hope this helps.
> 
> View attachment 13897
> 
> ...



Thank you Baymule for posting those pictures.  You are giving me lots of ideas and the good news is we have access to lots of those pallets for free.  

We hope to give it a try!


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