# Age Old Fencing Questions



## Alexz7272 (Sep 22, 2016)

So Tractor Supply is doing a 10% off *AND* I got my student loan payment. I decided to take out about $300 from that so I can buy new fencing, mostly so my partner will be able to relax about the escaping goats  

 Here is my dilemma, I can get the specific goat fencing (47 X 330) for $279 w/ 10% off = $251.10. So basically one roll _*OR*_ I can get Woven Field Fence (47 X 330) w/ 10% off = $148.50 a roll, so I can get 2 rolls for a total of 660 ft. 

Is there any reason I cannot use the Woven Field Fence? It is kind of hard to justify paying $251 for one roll of fencing at 330 ft when I can get two rolls for a total of 660 ft for the originally price of the goat fencing. I would be electricity the fence as well to deter them from rubbing on it so much (a big issue right now.) Unfortunately for me, $300 is ALOT of money. So I need to be very careful with my planning. 
Thanks so much!


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## ldawntaylor (Sep 22, 2016)

Personally I don't see a problem with the field fencing especially if you plan to use an electric strand or two as well.  My goats are fine with field fence but they don't seem inclined to escape either.  I do have the kind with smaller squares at the bottom - well, rectangles actually - so that the kids are less likely to go through or get stuck.

Because of the terrain I do have to walk fence line regularly and patch places where rain water has made a hole under the fence.


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## Alexz7272 (Sep 22, 2016)

@ldawntaylor That is what I was hoping to hear! My goats have only recently started trying (and succeeding) to escape, I don't even know why honestly, haha. And even then it is just my 'momma' goat, no one else. My babies (4 of them) have no interest at all, it is kinda funny.  
Thanks so much!!


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## babsbag (Sep 22, 2016)

With the field fencing you would have to run a hot wire inside. I would run one on any fence just to keep them off the fence but the field fencing makes it critical. If you have horned goats they will get stuck, guaranteed. Even without horns that will constantly be putting their head through it and 'testing' it. Either the 4x4 goat or 2x4 horse is really the best; but the other will work with the added wire.

What I like about the smaller squares on the perimeter is nothing comes into my field that is bigger than a mouse.


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## Alexz7272 (Sep 22, 2016)

@babsbag Yeah, mine are horned, my momma has been a prime example of continuing to do it. I'll have to look at the horse one! Would running a hot wire near the bottom and the top help with that maybe? Thank you!


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## Baymule (Sep 22, 2016)

I HATE FIELD FENCING!!!   Your baby goats could possible walk through it. It has big holes. If you ever get larger livestock, they will destroy it. My horses hung their hooves in it and ripped even bigger holes in it. Dogs could squeeze through the big holes and bigger dogs actually were able to wiggle and move the wires apart for a bigger hole. Cattle hooked their horns in it and ripped it. I suppose a goat with horns would be able to hook their horns in it just enough to get stuck. In my opinion, field fencing is crap. There's my 2 cents worth.

Sometimes it is better to spend the money and do it right the first time, than "save" money and wind up with something that makes you sorry you didn't suck it up and get the more expensive item.

We are fencing our 8 acres in the non climb horse fencing. Not even the chickens can get through it. It is way more expensive, but we will only do this ONCE.


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## Alexz7272 (Sep 22, 2016)

I dont know if this helps but it is this one I am looking at. Looks like it is tighter holes on the bottom and get larger towards the top? I am a total fence noob, sorry. 
http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/red-brand-woven-field-fence-330-ft-l-x-47-in-h?cm_vc=IOPDP1


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## Baymule (Sep 22, 2016)

That's the stuff. Like you, I thought what a deal! Fenced 16 acres and grew to hate it.


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## Alexz7272 (Sep 22, 2016)

@Baymule THANK YOU! That is the advice I am looking for  
I don't plan on using it for any animals besides my goats, sheep and alpacas. No one but my one brat tests it, but I am sure I'll have more as life goes on.


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## Alexz7272 (Sep 22, 2016)

Gahhh


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## Alexz7272 (Sep 22, 2016)

Is this one bad too? 
http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/red-brand-square-deal-field-fence-330-ft?cm_vc=-10005


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## babsbag (Sep 22, 2016)

It doesn't say how big the squares are, at least I can't find it, but pretty sure that that is similar to the other...big holes.  I know that the other stuff is expensive, but might be worth it if you end up doing it over again later.  If you have stray dogs at all I would never use it. If you do have to do it put the hot wire at the bottom and at goat knee height, but low enough that a baby goat will get their nose or ears bitten. 

The 2x4 no climb is my favorite but this is second. http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/goat-fence-48-in-x-330-ft.

Not a price you will like.


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## babsbag (Sep 22, 2016)

My baby alpine goats would go right through the field fencing but having it smaller on the bottom will help. Multiple rows of hot wire should help too when you have little kids.


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## Bossroo (Sep 22, 2016)

Alexz 7272, this post is just meant as food for thought ... Are you in this venture to make a profit ( or at least have your livetock just pay for themselves ) or a just for fun hobby which in most cases looses money.   Fencing isn't your only issue that would determine the fence type that you need.  Your soil and it's carying capacity for different classes of livestock , availability of water are the more important issues to solve first.  The goat breed you have  is not ideal as a profitable venture , but a drain on the feed budget.   In this day and age, wool sheep are not profitable for a small farmer as sheering costs drain the budget and the sale of wool is next to nill ( I did this, done that and sold out due to the crash of the wool industry )  so a drain of the budget. Same goes for the traditional meat breeds of sheep as they also need shearing.  Google Dorper sheep to have a good idea that they would fill your land's carying capacity as not only that they graze but also forage, and are able to gain weight better and keep their weight than the other livestock on the sparce vegetation and arrid conditions and also shed their wool so no need to shear. In todays' sheep industry,  I think that they have the best chance for making a profit. Alpacas had their day in the sun . Their prices have dropped drastically , so the large breeders are selling out. ( a very large breeder as well as having a National  alpaca transportation business just 5 miles from us is currently selling out). The horse industry crashed ( BLM is selling horses for $25 per head ) several years ago due to the bleeding hearts having a law passed to stop horse slaughter in the US.  So please  sit down and REALLY THINK the whole venture through.  What you decide will  drastically determine what type of fencing that you really need.  Good luck.


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## Alexz7272 (Sep 22, 2016)

Got it, so spend the money on the goat fencing. Will do! Plus, I really am getting annoyed getting momma unstuck from the fence with her dang horns 
I am doing more of a hobby farm, more so a homestead (being self sufficient). I have a very small niche market for my excess, my fellow Lithuanian-Americans. I know I will not be making a profit off of them.


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## Baymule (Sep 22, 2016)

Alexz7272 said:


> Is this one bad too?
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/red-brand-square-deal-field-fence-330-ft?cm_vc=-10005



It's field fence. Still crap. It breaks easily.

You named sheep, goats and alpacas, which are all high prey animals, utterly defenseless. I know you don't want to hear this, but buy the good wire. 2"x4" is the best. They can't stick their head through it.


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## NH homesteader (Sep 22, 2016)

From personal experience,  don't buy welded wire! I wish I was a millionaire because I would use all 16' cattle panels.  They're awesome! And so pricey!


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## OneFineAcre (Sep 22, 2016)

Alexz7272 said:


> Got it, so spend the money on the goat fencing. Will do! Plus, I really am getting annoyed getting momma unstuck from the fence with her dang horns
> I am doing more of a hobby farm, more so a homestead (being self sufficient). I have a very small niche market for my excess, my fellow Lithuanian-Americans. I know I will not be making a profit off of them.


Personally I wouldn't put too much faith in anything @Bossroo says
Only criticizes what you do 
Never says what they do
Has never posted pics of their animals
Only says what they used to do not what they do now
Not sure if they really have any animals


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## farmerjan (Sep 22, 2016)

Okay, I am gonna weigh in on the fencing.  We use field fencing. Have used both the 47" with 6 inch stays, and the 12 inch stays.  They have to be stretched and put up right;  and some is high tensile and some is not.  The no climb 2x4 is okay for anything if you can afford it.  The woven wire field fence will keep hogs in with an electric wire  but it has to stretched right.  Can't emphasize that enough. Most people don't get it up correctly to start, then it is a pain in the  ****. We put up an average of 3- 6 rolls a year between the different places we rent according to the agreements, and my son also helps another guy who does fencing for a living. Don't like the 12 " stays because foxes etc can get through and the chickens, and the sheep all put their heads through. The 12 inch stays can be pushed to make it wider alot easier than the 6 " .    We raise White Texas Dall sheep :  the rams for their horns specifically.  Lambs can put their heads through the smaller 6" stays and get stuck but the trick is to make them "stick-heads" until they get too big to put their heads through.  A friend also does it with all their goat kids  75 to 100 nannies so anywhere from 150 to 200 kids. Take a stick 8-12 inches long, use duct tape and tape it across their horns on top so that they can't get their heads through the wire.  Works like a charm.  Honestly.  They get tired of trying and their horns keep growing and then they can't get their heads through. The sticks will fall off/get rubbed off  in a few weeks to a couple months.  Any animals that we have that constantly try the fence don't stay.  Doesn't matter how big a pet, how good a breeder, if they can't get with the program, they are a nusiance (sp?) and will teach everyone else to get into trouble. Lawsuits aren't worth it.  Have you thought about electrified netting?  It will teach alot of respect for electric REAL quick if they get zapped; added benefit, it keeps the predators out, and you can rotate the grazing. Or if the goat is tame, put a collar on it and tie it where it can't get tangled up.
We don't have any trouble with the cattle destroying it.  They occasionally will reach over the top; hence the barbed wire or an electric wire at top.  I will take woven wire any day over high tensile smooth wire; and barbed wire unless the barbed wire is an 8 wire fence.


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## Bossroo (Sep 22, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> Personally I wouldn't put too much faith in anything @Bossroo says
> Only criticizes what you do
> Never says what they do
> Has never posted pics of their animals
> ...


Well, I guess being born and raised  on a working  profitable farm and running a working commercial farm and raising hundreds and yes, thausands of animals  for PROFIT  for well over a half century doesn't count for much in the eyes of some.  About 6 years ago, my body finally told me to retire or buy a underground home.  I did the former.  I sold our farm animals that were my means of making a PROFIT , kept a couple old cats, and the last of my working dogs to keep me and my wife company. These are now deceised.  I say what is needed , not hearsay by one  wanna be farmer to another and hope that it helps some to open their eyes and ears in the ways of proper animal husbandry for profit.  The IRS says that over 60% of people living on a farm are operating on a net loss every year for years.  Why , when many on this big blue marble are undernurished and /or  starving ?


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## Bossroo (Sep 22, 2016)

Alexz7272, It would be wise to listen to Baymule regarding her counsel on building a fence. Hobby farm or not , that 47" fence material that you are considering will be woefully underperforming from day one onwards.


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## farmerjan (Sep 22, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> From personal experience,  don't buy welded wire! I wish I was a millionaire because I would use all 16' cattle panels.  They're awesome! And so pricey!


 Hate to throw this in to the works;  but the 16 ft cattle panels or the combination panels that are hog/cattle panels combined  ARE welded wire.  When the welds break they will come apart and can stick out and catch everything that gets up against them.  They are great for pens with the proper posts, but they are still welded wire, extra heavy maybe but still welded and galvanized.


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## babsbag (Sep 23, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> Hate to throw this in to the works; but the 16 ft cattle panels or the combination panels that are hog/cattle panels combined ARE welded wire. When the welds break they will come apart and can stick out and catch everything that gets up against them. They are great for pens with the proper posts, but they are still welded wire, extra heavy maybe but still welded and galvanized.



And they do fall apart, and when they do they are dangerous. Had a goat with a horrid gash when she rubbed up against a broken panel before I realized what had happened. I do use them between my bucks and does, but also hot wire on both sides. I use the 4x4 goat and sheep panels in my kidding pens but also discovered that my kids can and do get their heads through those too, and they get stuck.


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## NH homesteader (Sep 23, 2016)

Well my Nigerians aren't planning on breaking them anytime soon.  I'm sure full size goats or cattle may be able to but those of us with little goats...  

I am going to try out the electric netting in the spring so I can rotate more easily!


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## NH homesteader (Sep 23, 2016)

I forgot your goats have horns don't they? I used to have a horned goat and he used to get his head stuck all the time in the big holes. 

What kind of fencing are you using now?


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## farmerjan (Sep 23, 2016)

See my earlier long post about making the goats, and sheep, "stickheads" while they are growing. Not pretty but funny looking, and it works.  Don't know about it if they are mature and keep getting their heads stuck cuz the horns only get to a certain size.


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## Alexz7272 (Sep 23, 2016)

Thanks everyone! @farmerjan I will definitely look into making my babies "stickheads"  
@NH homesteader My goats do have horns. This is going to sound really weird but most of Lithuania was Pagan and the practices are still very prominent, that is why I will not de-horn my goats. Although I know how much easier it can be, haha. 
I got free field fencing off of craigslist. It worked in the interim until now, when I could get better fencing.  
I'd LOVE to try electrical netting, I just dont know much about it all. You would have their 'pen' where their house is and food then would usher them into the netted area to rotate around orrr errr? Haha! Is it something you move often or set up different pastures and just rotate them between them? Sorry, I am asking alot of questions.


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## Alexz7272 (Sep 23, 2016)

Heres my problem child


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## farmerjan (Sep 23, 2016)

Alexz7272 said:


> View attachment 22001 Heres my problem child


If you put the stick across the end of her horns, duct tape it on each horn and let it stick out 3-4 inches on each side so she can't get it through, it will solve the problem.  She is typical of the goats I take care of for my friends who have over 100 at any one time. Some will get the sticks off sometimes but not a big deal to reapply.   They also do not dehorn or castrate as the ethnic market dictates intact males when they sell them. They even have a couple of buyers of singles that come to the farm and kill the animal there; it has to be facing a certain direction and all sorts of requirements; but whatever....
@NH homesteader  The panels don't just get broke from the animals.  I use them as "flexible" gates in between pens and the slight bending will sooner or later cause the welds to let go.  I love the panels too, and use them a fair amount.  Caught my leg on one wire that had come off the end and got a nasty gash.  I also use them in the garden for tying the tomatoes up against, for any climbing beans, cucumbers, gourds , anything that needs support. Alot easier than taking down tomato cages and they lean up against the shed wall til next year.  We can buy them for around $20 so it is a little more than 1.25 a foot.  If the goats get their heads through them it is harder to get them out as the woven wire field fence has a little more flex than they do.


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## NH homesteader (Sep 23, 2016)

I don't have horned goats anymore so it's not an issue.  I use the pig panels also,  and they've held up to my friend's 1000 lb boar. 

Anyway the best thing about the electric netting is I can move it by myself.  Takes about 5 minutes to move the whole thing.  I haven't used it with my goats yet,  we have it  for our chickens. Looking forward to trying it in the spring.


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## farmerjan (Sep 23, 2016)

Lot of people here use the netting for chickens and love it.  Have seen it being used by someone who uses goats to clean up pastures and fence rows and yeah, it's great as one person can move it easily by themselves.


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## babsbag (Sep 23, 2016)

I have seen goat horns wrapped with vet wrap and pvc, seemed to work well. I had a problem kid this year that could put her head through a 4x4 square and then get stuck as she had a little scur. She would stick it through the fence or feeder on a daily basis. My new puppy decided one night  goat ears were great chew toys so I moved the kid to yet another pen, only to have her do it again. And nothing on the other side except gravel...no greener grass. I finally gave up and gave the kid away, I was happy to see here go.


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## Baymule (Sep 23, 2016)

Fence the outer parameter with the 2"x4" horse wire. Then is you want to do temporary cross fencing, use the hot wire. I would be too nervous to solely use electric wire as an outer fence.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Sep 29, 2016)

@Alexz7272 I went through the same problems and questions you are having. After tons of research, questions, doubts, and headache I chose high tensile electric. It took me 2 years of grumbling about the cost of fencing before I actually fenced a part of my property in with the high tensile. I love it for us. It puts out a serious zap with the solar charger we have on it and with the lower strands closer together it is both strong and unpleasant for any of the animals to touch. However, we have 32 acres total and that is/will be our perimeter fencing. We have not decided yet on what to use for cross fencing... lol The only headache with electric is the work to keep it clear. We spray but it is not easy. As Latestarter learned, East TN and KY's "rolling" hills are quite steep with lots of fun ravines!


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## farmerjan (Sep 30, 2016)

There are alot of people that have gone to high tensile fencing.  As long as it is hot then it isn't bad. It will not keep a fox or coyote from going under , and once they get a jolt, they will keep going through it as opposed to backing up.  We HATE it with a passion, while we have neighbors with cattle that like it.  Had coyotes running some  some cattle one night, out of desperation I guess one of the calves (250-300 lbs) tried to go over. Got a back foot caught and the springyness of it wound up flipping over the hoof, and he hung upside down and was dead when we were checking the next morning.  It was at a rented pasture and the people who live there had gone out and put on the outside lights so the coyotes would leave after they heard them.  Have taken several deer out of it dead, or legs severely mangled so had to shoot them. It does stretch when a tree falls on it but after losing another 600 lb heifer that put her head through and somehow got tangled and wound up strangled,  I would NEVER use it. Here they recommend every second or third wire be hot, and most fences here are 8 wires.  We took down over 10 miles of it on a farm that had registered angus, years ago, when they lost 2 animals that got tangled up in it.  If you do not keep it hot, the cattle put their heads through, and with the give they will keep pushing til they just get through it.  And once they learn that they can push through it, they will not respect it unless they get zapped really bad.  And yes, it was put up by professionals that do fencing for a living. 
Any fence we replace on any pastures we rent, we will not put up high tensile as replacement.  Gave up a nice place because the owners told us that was the best, only way to go.  The ASCS  suggests it, but alot of them are going to the new high tensile woven wire that has 12" stays as a second choice for these programs that require the fencing out of streams and woods.  As an easy way to semi-permanently cross-fence, single or 2 strands, it's fine if it is hot.
Not trying to be negative, just wanted you to know that it is not considered the best end all fence here in our neck of the woods.  And we have some pretty steep and rough terrain here too in the foothills of the Alleghaneys.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Sep 30, 2016)

I would think it would be useless without a heck of a zap. We have the bottom 3 wires hot where our goats are. They don't like the zap but we did have them in a smaller area first with welded wire behind the high tensile electric to teach them to back up when zapped. We do not have to worry about predators in our pastures because of our LGD's, so it doesn't bother me in the least that predators could get in.  We wouldn't want our boys to get bored.


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## babsbag (Sep 30, 2016)

I have 2x4 no climb fence with a hot wire, I used the polywire for my hot wire. I have thought of going to the aluminum or steel hot wire on the bottom as sometimes my goats will break the wire, (don't ask me how). But I would rather they break it and cause me work than getting tangled in it and getting dead or injured. 

Thanks @farmerjan for the words of warning. High tensile fencing and aluminum hot wire isn't all the different.


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## farmerjan (Sep 30, 2016)

babsbag said:


> I have 2x4 no climb fence with a hot wire, I used the polywire for my hot wire. I have thought of going to the aluminum or steel hot wire on the bottom as sometimes my goats will break the wire, (don't ask me how). But I would rather they break it and cause me work than getting tangled in it and getting dead or injured.
> 
> Thanks @farmerjan for the words of warning. High tensile fencing and aluminum hot wire isn't all the different.


The aluminum wire will break, the high tensile will not.  Have had both as the "hot top wire".  We have often used the polywire too and I would rather deal with fixing it than losing an animal too.  We often run barbed wire on the top of a woven wire fence and if put on insulators, doesn't take much to make it hot.


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## ldawntaylor (Oct 4, 2016)

Alexz7272 said:


> @ldawntaylor That is what I was hoping to hear!




I'm glad to see you are getting some good input.  I am fortunate that my goats don't really try to get out and my dogs keep the potential predators out.  For me the system I've got has worked well.  Although it may not in other areas or other temperments in the animals.


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