# Yeah! Cooper deficiency GONE in two does, herbally!



## AlaskanShepherdess (Mar 3, 2011)

In less then 2 weeks of giving my goats Kop-Sel from Fir Meadow, two no longer have fishtails at all, 1 is dramatically improved and the last (that I am having trouble getting her to take Kop-Sel) is only slightly improved. 

 I am SO happy to see that! The LAST thing I wanted to do was put copper in their stomach's!

I am hooked on Fir Meadows products for sure!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 3, 2011)

What is it made of??  It had no detail discription of what it is???  Anything on the package it came it???  My only concern with no details..is that there is'ant enough information on what ppm are in there.  Copper / Selenium toxicty can happen and thats not good.  

Dont get me wrong..Im not against herbals at all.  I just would be concerned about the information about how much is in there..and how much are they recieving.  Important to know.  

If you have any details..I would appreciate it.  Thanks!


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## chandasue (Mar 3, 2011)

I agree about toxicity but I'm very interested too if you find out that info.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 3, 2011)

I'm sure Kat would be happy to answer any questions anyone has.  I haven't used this yet but have considered it.  She's been raising goats naturally for a very long time.  Used to live near me and was one of my customers.  She's also a master herbalist.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 3, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> I'm sure Kat would be happy to answer any questions anyone has.  I haven't used this yet but have considered it.  She's been raising goats naturally for a very long time.  Used to live near me and was one of my customers.  She's also a master herbalist.


Whos Kat???  The women who make the Kop-Sel???


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Mar 3, 2011)

Yes Kat is the Master Herbalist who came up with the Kop-Sel Formula.

Because these are herbs you cannot say "there is such and such ppm of copper in so much powder." The herbs used in the formula are those that have more copper and selenium in them then other herbs.

I am not concerned about toxicity because you give the animal a small amount of the herb formula until the symptoms disappear. If you were to give them the herbs after the symptoms were gone, then yes you might have a problem.

Because the minerals are in a whole food form you do not need the huge amounts of copper that you would need if you were giving the inorganic minerals, such as the copper used for copper boluses, or the selenium found in Bo-Se.

For instance, kelp has a TINY amount of copper in it, barely registers as it even having some, but the tiny amount of copper that was in the kelp I was giving my goats was enough to very slowly begin to reduce the deficiency. But it was very slow in my goats. It only took two weeks in my rabbit though.

I would be much more concerned about the toxicity of the copper boluses and Bo-Se then I would anything from herbs.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 4, 2011)

CrownofThornsNDGoats said:
			
		

> Because these are herbs you cannot say "there is such and such ppm of copper in so much powder."


Why not?  At some point someone had to figure out the herbs were higher in copper/selenium, right?  How do they know it's higher if there hasn't been an analysis?  Not arguing against the use of herbs, mind you, but the ones labeled for human consumption are required to have a guaranteed analysis so it seems like it'd be possible with herbs intended for the goats.  Just curious.


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## jodief100 (Mar 4, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> CrownofThornsNDGoats said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually supplements labeled for human consumption are not regulated.  They are required to have an analysis but there is no regulation that confirms the analysis.  The government is only allowed to get involved if something is proven to be dangerous.  Most companies are pretty good aboutwhat the label says is what you get but some are not.  Some random checks by independent watch groups have shown that sometimes the amounts listed on the label do not reflect what is in the bottle.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 4, 2011)

Im am gonna email "Kat" and see if she has further information.  Becuase really no mater where it comes from  plants, soils, loose minerals or rods it has to have a PPM.  Thats the important part of dosing minerals to goats.  Too much can be toxic and thats what concerns me.  Selenium toxcity remsembles copper deffiency.  So its really important to know how much they are recieving.   

Uhhhhh Goaties!!    They'll be the death of me!!   

So maybe she will have a little more info on that in her products???   So I will let you know what I discover.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Mar 4, 2011)

You can get someone to test how many ppm there is in one batch, but it is going to change from batch to batch because this is not a processed, human made food. This is nature made food and how much copper/selenium it has is going to depend on a whole bunch of stuff, the soil it was grown on that year, drought or wet conditions etc. 

So in order to say how many ppm there is, she would have to test each batch. 

I do recommend you ask her though, she is very knowledgeable and I think will be able to put your worries at ease.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Mar 6, 2011)

G,day all,this Copper thing is such a vexed question ,how much for how long?.............We use Copper Sulphate at a rate by volume of 1part in 26 parts of a complete mix ,4parts of the mix is Kelp meal...We have used it on our current flock(now closed)for over 15 years now and we believe we have "slowly"got our stocks systems re-balanced",to the extent we can almost "forecast"when increased usage will begin.............Just my view for what its worth ..............T.O.R.


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## Mossy Stone Farm (Jun 28, 2011)

:/ what i am wondering is WHY there is such a great decrease in cooper in  goats to begine with.. Is our feed source? hay, additives soil? I  have only had goats a few yrs and haven't run into a great deal of problems, but have noticed and seen a few things that have me really wondering.

 I went ahead and placed an order with Fir Medow for a few things to try...

I wouldnt say we are organic i am like most who will use what i need to make sure my goats and other animals remain healthy.


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## elevan (Jun 28, 2011)

Herbally supplementing copper intrigues me because I we've all found out...copper bolusing can be trying at times.

AlaskanShepherdess - just a couple questions...How was deficiency diagnosed? Was it a visual assessment or blood work?  Do have before and after photos that you can share?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mossy Stone Farm - imo it's our grain supply source and in some parts our hay sources that contribute to our copper problems.  My goats are in great condition when they are on browse in the summer - fall but come winter-spring when they are on grain and hay I start to see a change that is more that a thickening of their hair  :/
Scientific research has already proven that the foods that we humans feed ourselves are less nutritious than they were 100 yrs ago...why should this not hold true of the animal feed as well.


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## Griffin's Ark (Jun 29, 2011)

Just as a side note, the copper boluses are Copper Oxide, almost completely undigestable for goats.  The copper that a goat needs to fix a copper deficiency is copper sulfate (I believe).  The copper in the boluses is Copper Oxide Wire Particles and it is a natural anthelemic for Barber Pole worms (commonly found in the SE US).  Copper is an all natural substance and using copper boluses is one way to remain organic and keep your goats safe from Barber Pole worms.  The Barber Pole worms cannot get used to the copper and the particles stay in the goats stomachs for 6 months to a year giving continued protection for your goats (or cows).

Giving the bolus is quite easy, if you open them and pour them on an opened fig newton.  Then throw away the shell and ball up the fig bar.  Fig bars seem to be irresistible to goats (something I just learned).  I always dreaded giving the boluses, but now they get the copper with out the added drama!


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## elevan (Jun 29, 2011)

Griffin's Ark - Thanks for the fig newton tip   My goats are due soon for their bolus, I'll try that way and see how it goes.


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## Mossy Stone Farm (Jun 29, 2011)

thats a great idea about fig newtons, which are my fav too, always have some around....


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 29, 2011)

We are doing copper bolusing to hlelp with the barber pole worm loads, so far it seems to be really helping.  Everyone is staying nice and pink,  We use the famancha system for worming on an as needed basis. We used half the copper rods in each bolus. Many of my goats aren't tame enough to approach you and take a hand held treat, so bolusing is really our only way to get it all done.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Jun 29, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> AlaskanShepherdess - just a couple questions...How was deficiency diagnosed? Was it a visual assessment or blood work?  Do have before and after photos that you can share?


Elevan-

I just recently found out that they still had a few symptoms of copper deficiency but the ones I was looking at (fishtail and off colored fur) had disappeared, and the day I gave the last dose I discovered I had given it wrong so that is why I did not see the results I expected to see. I did see definite improvement, just not complete "recovery" as I once thought.

The two that I thought were no longer deficient but are still, still have a bald tail tip, but no longer a fishtail, and I was told by a friend that the dandruff problem they were having was from copper deficiency.

The two that I wasn't seen a whole lot of improvement in haven't had much change, but like I believe I mentioned earlier, I had a real hard time getting them to take it, which means they received WAY less, while the other two considered it a treat, and I was able to give them more of it.

I am ordering a lot more and will be doing it correctly this time. I ran out of kelp (which is low in copper) and couldn't order it for a while so I had to buy a standard mineral, and I bought one high in copper. I have recently been given 5 goats that were in need of some nutritional care, several of them still have their long shaggy winter coats, which I have read that when a goat is copper deficient it cannot lose it's fur properly. Within 3 days of giving them the new high copper mineral one of my new goats started "blowing" her coat, so there is going to be some improvement in all from this mineral, but it does not have enough copper to provide all their needs.

So in my now entire herd the copper deficiency signs that I have are;

wiry fur
not shedding winter coats
fish tails
bald tail tips
excessive dandruff
possible off colored fur
does not getting bred
does not cycling
does not keeping a pregnancy
heavy worm loads

I'll try to keep everyone updated on how it works once I use it properly. I really do believe it works well, and I know a number of folks who use it with great success.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jun 29, 2011)

How have you determined copper deficiency is the only or primary factor contributing to that list of issues?  For me heavy worm loads, fertility issues, and poor skin and coat health would be cause to look at more than just copper levels.  As others have mentioned, there's plenty of research correlating parasite resistance and adequate copper levels but copper supplementation is just one part of an integrated parasite management program.  Suspected deficiency aside, consistently high FECs or poor FAMACHA scores (IMO) would indicate that the rest of the program isn't picking up the slack.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Jun 29, 2011)

The goats that have the heavy worm load are the ones that were given to me, and I am out of wormer until it arrives soon. They were treated with one dose of ivermectin before being taken to my place, but one dose is not enough to get rid of a heavy worm load.

The goats of my "old" herd that have worm issues only have it because I ran out without being able to give them a full program, and money has been VERY tight lately, so it's been a while since they were wormed. I was also not pleased with Hoegger's herbal dewormer, and I am trying out Fir Meadows this time to see if I like the way it works. If those both fail I will have to use a chemical wormer before trying out a new herbal.


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## kstaven (Jul 17, 2011)

Mossy Stone Farm said:
			
		

> :/ what i am wondering is WHY there is such a great decrease in cooper in  goats to begine with.. Is our feed source? hay, additives soil? I  have only had goats a few yrs and haven't run into a great deal of problems, but have noticed and seen a few things that have me really wondering.
> 
> I went ahead and placed an order with Fir Medow for a few things to try...
> 
> I wouldnt say we are organic i am like most who will use what i need to make sure my goats and other animals remain healthy.


On most cases you find the soil has deficiencies, which translates into deficiencies in the feed and thus the need for more supplementation. It's taken us years of work on the soil which now pays off in healthier forage and lessens the need for supplements. Soil tests are invaluable.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Jul 17, 2011)

Something I have noticed lately..... I wasn't noticing as much improvement on the high copper mineral I was giving them as I thought I would. Until I started putting them out to graze, then all the sudden I have started seeing improvement in a lot of my girls. My theory.... is that there is other minerals or components in the graze they are getting that helps them use the copper in the mineral more efficiently. Obviously it's just a theory, but it's all I can think of to explain why I wasn't noticing lots of improvement in all my does until they started grazing. Nothing else changed. I know from research I have done that almost all vitamins and minerals need other vitamins and minerals in order to be absorbed and properly used by the body.


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