# Final Necropsy Results on Fourth Dead Kid In.  Nope. Nope. Nope :(



## SkyWarrior (Jun 20, 2015)

Trouble comes in threes, I guess.    Hopefully this one won't end up with a dead kid like the other two.
nti-to
I have a 3 week old buckling, named Blackjack, who is scouring big time.  I mean, the diarrhea is all down his back legs.  It's bad.  Really bad.  This afternoon when we found out, I guessed it was probably coccidia, given his age.  I gave him Corrid-20 and gave him C&D antitoxin just in case. After about 6 hours when I fed, he still was squirting.  I gave him some pepto-bismol because I don't want a dead kid.

I will pick up probios tomorrow or may make a yogurt probiotic to give to him.  I will continue the Corrid.  Other things to do to keep me from losing this little guy?


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## Goat Whisperer (Jun 20, 2015)

Can you run a fecal?

I have heard that Corid (amprollium*)* is very ineffective. It also is a thiamine inhibitor, causing secondary issues for your goat. You may want to use Di-methox (Sulfadimethoxine).

TSC doesn't have it but most other feed stores do, but I would call first.

I asked @Pearce Pastures some time ago how she treats kids with cocci (using Di-methox) (Thanks Pearce!)




> Yeah, Corid is no good and I am sticking to that. It is a thiamine antagonist---looks like thiamine so much so that the body thinks it is thiamine too and stops making its own. The cocci ingest the fake thiamine and starve to death. But the goat can have serious issues if they don't produce enough real thiamine (polioencephelitis).
> 
> Di-Methox 40% is what we use. You can get it in liquid form from Jeffers or what I do is order the 12.5% powder and mix it to a much stronger concentration so that the goats do get 40% out of it.
> 
> ...



If it is really bad you may want to give him some electrolytes too.

I am so sorry you are having a bad year! Hoping your little guy will be ok


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## Hens and Roos (Jun 20, 2015)

would electrolytes be good to give?

 and


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## SkyWarrior (Jun 20, 2015)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Can you run a fecal?
> 
> I have heard that Corid (amprollium*)* is very ineffective. It also is a thiamine inhibitor, causing secondary issues for your goat. You may want to use Di-methox (Sulfadimethoxine).
> 
> ...



We're really limited on coccidiastat. The best I've got is Corid.  Lucky me.  We don't even have a TSC. I'll check Murdochs, but I don't think they have it.



Hens and Roos said:


> would electrolytes be good to give?
> 
> and



I'll pick up some unflavored pedialyte. That should work.


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## Latestarter (Jun 20, 2015)

From what I've been told, you don't need to pay the price for pedialite when you can pick up a bottle of gatorade (or one of the knock-off drinks) and get the exact same thing for a fraction of the cost.


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## babsbag (Jun 20, 2015)

Corid should work ok but not preferred. Hope that it clears up quickly. I haven't used Corid in years so can't tell you how quickly you should see improvement but I am guessing more than 6 hours.

I posted this a few years ago but thought I would share again. A friend gave me this recipe for scours and it works. The "I" is my friend, not me. But I have used this a few times.

_1 tsp cinnamon
1 tsp clove
2 tsp ginger
2 tsp slippery elm (health food stores or Hoeggers Goat Supply)
1 tsp garlic ( I use liquid)
2 cups of water

Bring to slow simmer on low heat while stirring.
I then place in jar and cover and allow to cool for about 20 minutes.
I have been using it for
the past few years with awesome results.
Give 6-12 cc's orally several times a day.
I have also mixed it with scour halt with very good results

Since I already had some of this mixed up I then added:
cayenne and thyme. I used a teaspoon of each because my babies are in the 50-70 pound range, well, most of them, Figured it wouldn't hurt the little babies._


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## SkyWarrior (Jun 21, 2015)

Thanks Babsbag!  

Well, I have some guardedly good news.  This morning before I went to the farmer's market, I brought more Corid with me and gave Blackjack another dose for today. He was scouring still and it was awful.  So I went to Murdoch's and bought scour-chek, some electrolytes called "Bounce Back," some Ivermectin, and probios (because I've been out).  I also bought the liquid version of Corid because it's a pain trying to mix it for the goats.

When I came home, I noticed the poop wasn't quite running out of him.  I had my DH rinse Blackjack's back end with water and then I gave him scour-chek, electrolytes, probios, and Ivermectin. Surprisingly, he took them all very well and even drank nearly 3/4 a bottle of electrolytes -- and he isn't a bottle baby!  When I fed tonight, the diarrhea appeared to have stopped. I gave him more electrolytes, probios, and gave him a B-complex shot since he's getting Corid.  Loved the electrolytes and probios; unhappy with the shot.  He drank off mom and ate some hay while I was there.  He looks better.  

Yeah, I went shotgun approach with him.  Sue me.  Having two dead baby goats is enough to make you throw everything at a kid. 

I don't know if the Corid or the C&D antitoxin worked and he was on the mend or whether it was anything else I did.  At this stage, I'm just holding my breath and hoping for a live kid tomorrow.


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## Hens and Roos (Jun 21, 2015)

for him to keep improving!


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## Pearce Pastures (Jun 21, 2015)

Hope he improves.  Corid really is not effective as a treatment once cocci have taken hold and the high dosage of it that it takes to try to treat put you on alert for issues with thiamine.  Can you place an online order or grab a few tablets from a vet?  It might be worth having on hand anyway and Jeffers will ship it asap.  I wish I was near you because I would give you a packet.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jun 21, 2015)

Adding another thought--- the slowing of scours would be from the pepto/scour-check, and he is probably being helped by the use of electrolytes.  The CDT and Corid are not likely treating this but keeping him from getting dehydrated is a good move.  Corid will help the cocci from being able to continue growing.


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 21, 2015)

I think by giving B complex while giving corrid, you are essentially nullifying the corrid
I believe corrid works by denying coccidia thiamine
At least that is my understanding


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## Goat Whisperer (Jun 21, 2015)

I agree with Pearce and OFA. You may be making your guy feel better but the way corid works is by suppressing thiamine. Cocci need it to survive, but so does your goat. Corid is already very ineffective but by giving the b complex would make it useless. I understand you are using what you have but I would see if your vet has any Dimethox or order it online and get 2-day shipping.


Sounds like you are doing a good job with him though!


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## Pearce Pastures (Jun 21, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> I think by giving B complex while giving corrid, you are essentially nullifying the corrid
> I believe corrid works by denying coccidia thiamine
> At least that is my understanding



Correct 

Corrid mimics thiamine which cocci need.  It is effective enough that the body thinks it is thiamine too and stops producing it, which ends up starving the cocci to death.  The issue is that the body needs thiamine too but some can handle it better than others.  If thiamine levels are too low, that is when we see polio and give the B to treat.  Giving B to prevent it though defeats the Corrid and the cocci are being kept alive.


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## SkyWarrior (Jun 21, 2015)

Pearce Pastures said:


> Hope he improves.  Corid really is not effective as a treatment once cocci have taken hold and the high dosage of it that it takes to try to treat put you on alert for issues with thiamine.  Can you place an online order or grab a few tablets from a vet?  It might be worth having on hand anyway and Jeffers will ship it asap.  I wish I was near you because I would give you a packet.



I'll be able to get it later this week when I get paid.  I used up all my money on the other treatments, so I'm keeping him going okay for now.


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## SkyWarrior (Jun 21, 2015)

Pearce Pastures said:


> Correct
> 
> Corrid mimics thiamine which cocci need.  It is effective enough that the body thinks it is thiamine too and stops producing it, which ends up starving the cocci to death.  The issue is that the body needs thiamine too but some can handle it better than others.  If thiamine levels are too low, that is when we see polio and give the B to treat.  Giving B to prevent it though defeats the Corrid and the cocci are being kept alive.




Yep, I'm giving him B vitamin shots every day now.  My understanding was giving Corid starves the cocci in the stomach from B.  I don't think the B injections will nullify it.


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## babsbag (Jun 21, 2015)

Glad he is doing better.

Now here is my humble opinion.

I too have heard that the thiamine will make the Corid ineffective but I have a lot of friends that use Corid as a prevention and treatment for cocci and I used to. My vet (who is goatie vet) told me to use it the first year I had cocci in my herd. I believe the treatment was 1cc for 4 lbs for 5 days, straight out of the bottle, not diluted. She personally thinks that the thiamine issue is a non issue. Corid is not a thiamine inhibitor, it is a thiamine imitator. In goats thiamine is produced by the bacteria and protozoa of the rumen so short term use of the correct dose of Corid doesn't stop the production of it, it just mimics thiamine and the cocci ingests it and dies because they too need thiamine to live. I am sure the cocci get some real thiamine from the goat too so they don't all die at once. Giving the Vit. B injection should not make Corid ineffective, but it may slow the cocci die off. And to make it even more complicated my vet said that there isn't enough thiamine in the B complex to help at all, you need straight Vit. B1 to get enough thiamine or at least Fortified B vitamins.

One more thing, if the goat isn't eating because of the cocci then there is a better chance that the thiamine is not being produced in the rumen in the first place, with or without the Corid.

 I now use Baycox. Second choice is  Sulfadimethoxine Injectable  40% give orally @ 1 cc /5 lbs. first day 1 cc /10 lbs. next 5 days

The bottom line, if Corid is your only choice then follow the dosing directions and go for it. You are okay.


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 21, 2015)

babsbag said:


> Glad he is doing better.
> 
> Now here is my humble opinion.
> 
> ...


Good information
X2 on the Baycox that's what we use now


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## Southern by choice (Jun 21, 2015)

*Amprolium*

"The drug is a thiamine analogue and blocks the thiamine transporter of _Eimeria_ species. By blocking thiamine uptake it prevents carbohydrate synthesis."

Don't know why you'd give the B vitamins but more than likely the small amount would be insignificant.

I don't blame you one bit for throwing everything at him... you lost the other two so fast. Normally I know you wouldn't but this has been pretty awful what you've gone through.

Keeping fingers crossed!


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## babsbag (Jun 21, 2015)

So does it stop carbohydrate synthesis in the goat too or just in the cocci?  Everything I have been taught says that the goat is not at risk with short term usage.  I suspect that the Vit B is to replenish the thiamine, but goats produce thiamine if they have a functioning rumen...These animals are sure confusing.


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 21, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> *Amprolium*
> 
> "The drug is a thiamine analogue and blocks the thiamine transporter of _Eimeria_ species. By blocking thiamine uptake it prevents carbohydrate synthesis."
> 
> ...


More good information
We've used it with no ill effect on the animals
But we have found that the toltrazuril compound I,e, Baycox is by far the most effective


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## Goat Whisperer (Jun 21, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> More good information
> We've used it with no ill effect on the animals
> But we have found that the toltrazuril compound I,e, Baycox is by far the most effective


Because you have used both, what do think about Corid VS di-methox?


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 21, 2015)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Because you have used both, what do think about Corid VS di-methox?


I don't really know
We cruised along for 3 years giving dimethox as a preventative with no problems 
Year 4 we lost a 5 week old kid with no symptoms 
Healthy that morning and dead that afternoon and I mean fast
Her necropsy said she had formed berries in her rectum no diarrhea 
We gave corrid next year and lost another the same way
This time we had other sick one And did fecals and had an issue 
That's when we got the Baycox
One dose and they had none
We talked to a number of people who don't give anything who said that after 4 or 5 years you will hit a point and have a problem but after a couple of years you don't have a problem
But they also said they had years they lost every kid
No doubt that management was part of our problem
We got lazy


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## Southern by choice (Jun 21, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> I don't really know
> We cruised along for 3 years giving dimethox as a preventative with no problems
> Year 4 we lost a 5 week old kid with no symptoms
> Healthy that morning and dead that afternoon and I mean fast
> ...



I agree, it seems after so many years it does show up. Makes sense. Adult goats still have some oocysts in their system and will shed it but causes no issues (usually-unless it is just severe for some reason) those do get passed onto the pasture even dry lots.
We use the Toltrazuril (Baycox) also and stared the same year you lost your kid. I had never seen any of our goats with anything on the slide (kids) suddenly 6 oocysts. I probably jumped to overkill mode but now we do a preventative too.

What is odd is the kids left on mom still never have anything yet the kids we pulled that are dry lotted, given their own dam's milk do show cocci on the slide. Cannot figure that one out.
Every goat we have acquired over the past few years have all come in on medicated feed... we take them off because we cannot risk the medicated feed here... between dogs and chickens too risky. I guess I can see why so many use the medicated feed though.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jun 22, 2015)

babsbag said:


> So does it stop carbohydrate synthesis in the goat too or just in the cocci?  Everything I have been taught says that the goat is not at risk with short term usage.  I suspect that the Vit B is to replenish the thiamine, but goats produce thiamine if they have a functioning rumen...These animals are sure confusing.



Correct dosing and short term use should be fine.  Some critters are more sensitive so that is why some say to keep Vit B Complex on hand if you can't get straight thiamine, or just use a med that is more effective without the complication.

While treating with Corid, using B complex will make it less effective, but probably won't completely nullify it.  

Speaking of Baycox, I am ordering this in the fall when I do my yearly animal order....http://horseprerace.com/toltrazuril...edient-of-Baycox®)/toltrazuril-for-epm-200ml/

Lots have told me how well it works, one dose and done, no nasty taste, and the price is coming down from where it was a few years ago.  DiMethox powder is about $12 and liquid is around $40 so I am giving it a try.


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 22, 2015)

Pearce Pastures said:


> Correct dosing and short term use should be fine.  Some critters are more sensitive so that is why some say to keep Vit B Complex on hand if you can't get straight thiamine, or just use a med that is more effective without the complication.
> 
> While treating with Corid, using B complex will make it less effective, but probably won't completely nullify it.
> 
> ...



That's where we have ordered ours from too.
We've had no issues receiving our orders.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 22, 2015)

The only thing I don't like is it's shelf life. If you have a small herd and only a few kids per year it isn't worth it. 1 year shelf life. 200mls

We have enough to utilize a bottle but many people only have 3-6 kids a year and that is pricey.


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## babsbag (Jun 22, 2015)

My kid with scours that was responding to NOTHING has berries this morning after 4 days on Safeguard.   No I did not do a fecal, no microscope and the friend that does them for me was busy with the fair. I was not spending 40.00 on a 50.00 wether so just did the usual which didn't work.  We had a puppy diagnosed with Giardia so I figured what the heck, let's treat for that. It seems to have worked, but then again, he could have had tapeworm.  

Hope that @SkyWarrior is having good look with her kid too.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 22, 2015)

@babsbag glad the fenben worked!  

I know, thinking about @SkyWarrior  too.


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## SkyWarrior (Jun 22, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> @babsbag glad the fenben worked!
> 
> I know, thinking about @SkyWarrior  too.



Okay, that's the one thing I haven't tried yet.

I have that.  I sort of felt like, geez this is overkill when I just gave him Ivomectin on day 1.  

Sort of guarded good news.  He's griping about all the stuff I'm shoving down his gullet.  Still watery poo, but it's far less than before. He's been chasing mom around for milk and has been eating hay.  The electrolyte and scour-chek seems to perk him up. I increased the dosage of Corid because I ran into a paper by two different university vets and the amounts were much higher than those listed in other places.  Perhaps Corid is ineffective because people are underdosing?   I don't know.

I'll be hitting him up with more electrolytes and probios later today.  This time I'll bring a towel so I don't get some poo on me.  I will add fenben.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 22, 2015)

Glad to hear he is protesting a bit!  Still keeping my hopes up for you.
BTW- I have missed you Sky!

Giardia will cause water like diarrhea, tapes usually cause logs and then can turn to mushy like diarrhea but have never seen tapes cause liquid diarrhea.

Remember use the fenben 3-5 days straight.
Also even though the fenben says for goats the actual dosage formulation on the back *was not* based on goats.  It was based on cattle. 
Every goat vet I work with says either 9cc or 10cc per 100 lbs.
I use to use the formulation on the back and never had a problem but we also never had worm issues but tapes seem to pop up here and there as well as almost every new goat we have come in is loaded with tape.   When having a hard time dealing with the tape is when I found out about the dosage etc. a few years ago.

They really do not study goats at all.  No $ in it.

Of course you should do what your vet recommends.


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## SkyWarrior (Jun 23, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> Glad to hear he is protesting a bit!  Still keeping my hopes up for you.
> BTW- I have missed you Sky!
> 
> Giardia will cause water like diarrhea, tapes usually cause logs and then can turn to mushy like diarrhea but have never seen tapes cause liquid diarrhea.
> ...



Why, thank you Southern!    I've missed you too.  I sometimes drop off into the ether because I'm so busy. I don't mean to, but it happens.  We've had some really bad things happen with our dogs (medical problems) and enough crazy work to keep me awake working to dawn.  Yeah, that weird.

The only thing I know that fixes giardia is metronidazole. Is there something else I should consider?  He still has watery poop.  He was chasing after mom to give him milk and protested so much about the electrolytes that when I tried to get his mouth open, he bit my finger.  I yelled and at the same time, he sprayed the electrolyte solution, so I got a taste of it.  Actually wasn't too bad, kinda of like Gatorade.    But now I have baby goat germs.

He is active and running around.  He is currently getting the following:

6 cc scour-chek
10 mg probios (morning/night)
3 to 10 oz electrolytes (bounce back morning/night -- sometimes afternoon too)
10 cc Corid
.6 cc Fenbenazole

No wonder the little guy is fed up with me.  If I didn't have two doelings die the same day, I think I would be a little more cautious. But I'm really tired of feeding the ravens here.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 23, 2015)

How much does he weigh?

Fenbendazole does treat Giardia.

Edited to add- How old is he?


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## babsbag (Jun 23, 2015)

Isn't that a pretty high dose of scour check? I thought it was 2cc 2x a day?  Maybe not the same stuff I used?

I was using the actual SafeGuard for goats and was giving about 4cc and he weighs about 30 lbs. I know the stuff is SAFE so I went a little high on the dose. (safe for the goat AND safe for the worm). The first day I saw no improvement. Day 2 and 3 were dog logs and day 4 berries. He never went off feed but wasn't his perky little self either. He is about 3.5 months so already weaned so no milk or bottle. His scours were liquid, not even pudding. I treated 3 days with scour halt and twice with Toltrazuril. He had also been treated at 4 weeks for cocci and it cleared up.

I also gave him a dose of Duramycin and LA300 because I have a bunch of kids with coughs. I am treating them all as I catch them. I doubt that medication had any affect on the scours in causing or curing.


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## SkyWarrior (Jun 24, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> How much does he weigh?
> 
> Fenbendazole does treat Giardia.
> 
> Edited to add- How old is he?




He weighs about 15 lbs, would be my guess.  (Pygmy x Lamancha)  He is almost 4 weeks old, I think.  I've been giving him .6 ml of Fenbendazole made for goats according to the directions on the package.



babsbag said:


> Isn't that a pretty high dose of scour check? I thought it was 2cc 2x a day?  Maybe not the same stuff I used?



Ah, you're testing me where I got my dosages!    Let me look...

Here:  http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/scours-frustration.14207/


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## Southern by choice (Jun 24, 2015)

SkyWarrior said:


> He weighs about 15 lbs, would be my guess. (Pygmy x Lamancha) He is almost 4 weeks old, I think. I've been giving him .6 ml of Fenbendazole made for goats according to the directions on the package.



Although the packaging says for goats it was formulated for cows. 
According to all my vets that would be severely under dosing.


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## SkyWarrior (Jun 24, 2015)

What would you recommend?



Southern by choice said:


> Although the packaging says for goats it was formulated for cows.
> According to all my vets that would be severely under dosing.


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## SkyWarrior (Jun 24, 2015)

BTW, he seems to be acting better.  He's annoyed at me to the point he grinds his teeth when I force the bottle into his mouth.  Did I mentions the screaming when I try to force everything down his gullet?

He wants to eat hay and drink water as well as get milk.  I have not seen any scours since yesterday.


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## babsbag (Jun 25, 2015)

Well I probably completely overdosed on the FenBen.   I used Safeguard goat wormer and I did  2 cc for a goat the weighs about 30 lbs. Why are these animals so difficult to get accurate doses on?

As far as the Scour Halt, I followed the dose on the package for pigs and it was 2cc for over 20 lbs 2x a day. Maybe that wasn't enough? It worked on the LaMancha kids that I struggled with for weeks; but did nothing for the current problem child.

It has been a rough year in my barn too. I still have nasty nasty coughs out there. Oh, and one more that started scouring yesterday. Treated her for cocci and she looks better, hope that is all it was.


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## SkyWarrior (Jun 25, 2015)

babsbag said:


> Well I probably completely overdosed on the FenBen.   I used Safeguard goat wormer and I did  2 cc for a goat the weighs about 30 lbs. Why are these animals so difficult to get accurate doses on?
> 
> As far as the Scour Halt, I followed the dose on the package for pigs and it was 2cc for over 20 lbs 2x a day. Maybe that wasn't enough? It worked on the LaMancha kids that I struggled with for weeks; but did nothing for the current problem child.
> 
> It has been a rough year in my barn too. I still have nasty nasty coughs out there. Oh, and one more that started scouring yesterday. Treated her for cocci and she looks better, hope that is all it was.



If it makes you feel any better about your current problem child, his scours haven't stopped even with the Scour-halt.  So, now I'm looking at upping the dose of Fenben and buying some Dimethox online.   On the other hand, he is eating and drinking, and he appears to have plenty of energy.  Just runny poop.  Sigh.


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## SkyWarrior (Jun 25, 2015)

@Southern by choice: What would you recommend for the amount of Fenbendazole I should use?


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## Southern by choice (Jun 25, 2015)

http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/scours-in-buckling-this-is-a-bad-year.31426/page-3#post-394966

This is the dosage that the majority of our vets recommend for goats.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 25, 2015)

Sky:  You are wise to treat for this with full attack.  By doing the minimum you can end up with a kid too sick to save.  Since it is still dragging on, you would probably have lost this one too by now had you been conservative in your treatment. You made the right choice to act fast and hard.  By the way, have you dosed his mother for coccidia since he is nursing?  If he is nursing, I assume that you are not milking her for house milk so you wouldn't have a problem not using her milk.  If she has mild coccy it may not be showing up but may be reinfecting him.   

I use Safeguard fenbendazole wormer sold by Jeffers. It is a 10% suspension (100mg/ml) dewormer for beef and dairy cattle and goats.  I buy the 1000ml bottle for worming my dogs.  I also use it to treat giardia.  When treating giardia, you increase the dosage 25% for 5 days.  For control of worms, I dose for 3 days.  This is an off label use and dose I got from the internet from a Beagle breeder in the south that has to worm every 30 days.  It worked like a charm on the giardia my dog picked up at a show.  I thought he had worms but the co-owner called to say that her dog (littermate) had picked up giardia from  show and mine probably had it too.  The vet charged her $150 for 5 doses of  fenbendazole to treat it.  I already had it in the fridge and it cleared up the water diahrea in 24 hours.  I dosed for 5 days.

The dose for goats is 0.6 ml per 25 lbs according to the packaging.  This is a dose for worming so I think you would have to _increase_ it for giardia.  I never wormed my goats so never used this on goats.  I have wormed sheep with a different medication.

If you need another type of treatment instead of Corid, Jeffers will overnight meds.  By now coccidia should have responded to the Corid.  I would try to do a fecal check to be sure what you should be treating for.  If this was a bottle baby, I would have cut his milk with water to try to decrease the protein level in his gut while I gave him probiotics, electrolytes and and kaopectate.  How long is the course of Corid supposed to take for getting rid of coccy?  If he is still scouring after a full treatment it may not be coccy. 

If it is giardia, you need to increase the fenbendazole since you need a higher dose for a longer period of time to kill giardia.  Giardia is more prevalent after heavy rains.  I would increase the scour chek or kaopec to 3 x a day and maybe the probios too. You can add Gatorade to the water bucket.  (I knew people who would put powdered Gatorade mix into the water buckets at shows to counteract stress.  The off brand is cheaper.)

If he still has scours this weekend, I would pull the Corid, and continue with the Scour chek/kaopec, probios and electrolytes.  If the Corid doesn't work after a week, I would switch to another type or just try to control it with kaopectate.  Also consider treating for e.coli instead if the scour has a particularly nasty odor. 

Good luck on this - scours are often baffling and hard to deal with.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 25, 2015)

Ridgetop said:


> When treating giardia, you increase the dosage 25% for 5 days. For control of worms, I dose for 3 days. This is an off label use and dose I got from the internet from a Beagle breeder in the south that has to worm every 30 days. It worked like a charm on the giardia my dog picked up at a show. I thought he had worms but the co-owner called to say that her dog (littermate) had picked up giardia from show and mine probably had it too. The vet charged her $150 for 5 doses of fenbendazole to treat it



Just so there is no confusion to Sky- fenben dosages in dogs and in puppies is different than in goats.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 25, 2015)

Absolutely.  I use this "off label" for the dogs.

The dosage on the bottle (which is a dewormer for cattle and goats) says .6 ml per 25 lbs which is what Sky is giving.  I am not sure what the giardia dosage would be for goats but I am assuming it would be higher and for a longer period of time.  Giardia attack the intestinal wall, where worms are usually present in the stomach.


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## babsbag (Jun 25, 2015)

Mine responded to 2-3 cc. of Safeguard for a 30lb goat after 4 days when nothing else worked. My gut tells me he had Giardia. This was the liquid goat wormer, not the paste.

The triplets from earlier in the year had different scours, theirs were yellow and mucousy, didn't really smell. And other herd mates were getting it too. They were eating ok, but very depressed. I actually lost their dam when they were three weeks old; I do not know what she died from. She went off feed and was dead 1 day later. Those kids all responded to Scour Check, so a bacterial infection of some kind.


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## promiseacres (Jun 25, 2015)

Hope things settle soon


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## SkyWarrior (Jun 25, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/scours-in-buckling-this-is-a-bad-year.31426/page-3#post-394966
> 
> This is the dosage that the majority of our vets recommend for goats.


  I need a facepalm icon.


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## SkyWarrior (Jun 25, 2015)

Ridgetop said:


> Sky:  You are wise to treat for this with full attack.  By doing the minimum you can end up with a kid too sick to save.  Since it is still dragging on, you would probably have lost this one too by now had you been conservative in your treatment. You made the right choice to act fast and hard.  By the way, have you dosed his mother for coccidia since he is nursing?  If he is nursing, I assume that you are not milking her for house milk so you wouldn't have a problem not using her milk.  If she has mild coccy it may not be showing up but may be reinfecting him.
> 
> I use Safeguard fenbendazole wormer sold by Jeffers. It is a 10% suspension (100mg/ml) dewormer for beef and dairy cattle and goats.  I buy the 1000ml bottle for worming my dogs.  I also use it to treat giardia.  When treating giardia, you increase the dosage 25% for 5 days.  For control of worms, I dose for 3 days.  This is an off label use and dose I got from the internet from a Beagle breeder in the south that has to worm every 30 days.  It worked like a charm on the giardia my dog picked up at a show.  I thought he had worms but the co-owner called to say that her dog (littermate) had picked up giardia from  show and mine probably had it too.  The vet charged her $150 for 5 doses of  fenbendazole to treat it.  I already had it in the fridge and it cleared up the water diahrea in 24 hours.  I dosed for 5 days.
> 
> ...



Thanks @Ridgetop -- here are my answers to your questions.

I have not dosed his mom.  His brother does not have any issues, so I'm thinking she's probably safe? 

The Fenbendazole I'm using is Safeguard for goats.  At this stage, I'm upping the dosage to 9 -10 ml and hope it whacks whatever it is.  I have Sulmet coming from Jeffers.  The Corid is off-brand usage although the recommendation is 5 days.  He'll probably get it through the weekend.  After that, I will discontinue and hopefully the Sulmet will arrive.

He'll be on pepto bismol if I can't get a handle on it.  The good news is that he's active and doing everything a little goat is supposed to do, just has poop down his butt.    None of the other goats have this, so he's the one with the most issues now.  I suspect I need to split up the Scour-chek and still try to get him to drink electrolytes.  Yeah, he complains about this.

Basically, he's not fading, but this is the longest I've seen a goat go with scours and not have serious problems.  Probably everything else I've been doing has kept the little guy alive.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 25, 2015)

@15 lbs that would be 1.5 ml fenben


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## GLENMAR (Jun 25, 2015)

I just treated one and included 1/2 cup pain yogurt with pedialyte. About 60 ml in a syringe. x3.
And 12 ml 2x a day kayopectate.


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 25, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> @15 lbs that would be 1.5 ml fenben


X2
We give a ml per 10 lbs


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## Ridgetop (Jun 27, 2015)

I use paste electrolytes - they are salty so he will drink right after.  They are easier to get down than trying to get a doe raised kid to take a bottle, especially if he's not really hungry right then.  Sounds like you are doing everything right - I sometimes think they do this on purpose just to give us gray hair and wrinkles LOL!  Can't you imagine their chat lines?  "I squirted a little today and turned my nose up at my grain - you should have seen them come running every few hours to pamper me LOL!"


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## SkyWarrior (Jun 30, 2015)

Okay, some updates:

I am guardedly optimistic.  It looks like the increase in Fenben did the trick.  As an FYI, I did 3 ml once a day for 5 days.  I have seen no scours in 3 days.  Blackjack is acting like a typical baby goat.  And with the insane heat we've been having, you'd see him go downhill if he weren't doing well.

Giardia?  Who would have thought that?  No one else has it -- not even his bro.  Or at least, they don't show it.  

Anyway, thanks for the tipoff on that.  Especially @Southern by choice, @babsbag, @OneFineAcre, and @Ridgetop, although you've all been so helpful.   I've now decided I really need to just watch him and make sure he's not going downhill again, but with all the deaths, this is a bit of good news! I'm pretty tired of sick baby goats.  

I'll take some pictures tonight, dirty butt and all.


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## babsbag (Jul 1, 2015)

I am glad he is doing better. I have another one tonight with scours and a temp. He is about 7 months old so not really a "baby".  Not sure what is going on but I think that he was the one that made his way into the barn and the grain this morning; he is my escape artist. So just to complicate my life I think that the scours and temp are not related. I have pneumonia working through my herd so I treated him with Duramycin and Banamine, patted him on the butt and told him good night. I too am tired of sick goats.


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## SkyWarrior (Jul 5, 2015)

Horrible news: Blackjack died last night.  He was doing fine and then looked just a little off last night.  This afternoon we found him dead.    We've lost three kids this year.  No late breedings again.  Yeah, I'm upset.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 5, 2015)

So sorry Sky 

Any way to send him to the state lab for necropsy?


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 5, 2015)

I am so sorry    You have had a rough year 

Please PLEASE send him in for a necropsy. It will be money well spent. It will give you so much info and tell you if you need to start a preventative program for Cocci, Giardia, etc.

If you have something on your land now, you need to know ASAP before you lose anymore kids and especially before next kidding season.


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## Hens and Roos (Jul 5, 2015)

so sorry for your loss


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## norseofcourse (Jul 5, 2015)

I'm sorry for your loss


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## Latestarter (Jul 5, 2015)

Sorry Sky  I agree with what others said, you really should get a necro done to find out what's happening there.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 5, 2015)

My heart is broken for you.  I am so sorry.


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## babsbag (Jul 6, 2015)

Darn it, I was hoping that the fenBen took care of it all and that he was on the mend. I am so sorry.


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## SkyWarrior (Jul 7, 2015)

Someone posted the diagnostic lab site.  Could you repost?


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## lkmartin1230 (Jul 7, 2015)

If all else fails, purchase a bottle of peptobizmol, if your goat is anything like all of mine they will drink it with no problem, and that usually ends the scours a day, or 2 later.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 7, 2015)

Here ya go Sky- 
http://liv.mt.gov/lab/default.mcpx


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## SkyWarrior (Jul 7, 2015)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Here ya go Sky-
> http://liv.mt.gov/lab/default.mcpx




Thanks.  I managed to find a large animal vet who does necropsies closer.  We just found Nutmeg out in the yard dead and with no warning, no bloat, no nothing.  She is 4 months and she was healthy and had her vaccinations.  So, now we're rushing dead critters to the vet.  I only have 2 baby goats left.  This year has been a total disaster.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 7, 2015)

Oh my gosh SW, I am so sorry 

Poor babies


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## lkmartin1230 (Jul 7, 2015)

I am so, sorry.


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## Ridgetop (Jul 7, 2015)

That many kids dead means something bad is on your property and running through the herd.  You definitely need a necropsy - can you be present when it is done since it is a local vet?  I would recommend this since you can answer his questions as he is working through it.  Also, do a check on your feed, both grain and hay.  It is possible that something got sprayed on the hay crop or in the mill that doesn't affect the adults but the babies with their immature rumens might not be able to synthesize it.  Can you send samples to a lab?  This is not only heartbreaking, but potentially disastrous for your entire operation.  You need to identify it asap so you can deal with it.  The scours and deaths are the symptoms, but there has to be an underlying cause that needs to be dealt with. 

One year we lost 3 consecutive sets of calves to e. coli and finally had to stop bringing in any more while we disinfected the pens, ground around the pens, feeding equipment, etc. with bleach and let it sit for a whole year.  We lost a lost of income that year since our calves paid the hay bill, not to mention the $100 apiece for the calves that died, meds, etc.  Until we found out it was e.coli we couldn't stop it.  Identification is your prime objective now.

I hope you will get answers with the necropsies.  Please post findings when you have them.  This loss is terrible.


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## promiseacres (Jul 7, 2015)

very sorry.


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## babsbag (Jul 7, 2015)

So very very sorry, very disheartening for sure. My heart is just heavy and I know there are no words to ease the pain right now.   Praying that you find the cause.

Hoping the vet will send off tissue/blood for toxicology and analysis if he can't see an obvious reason for the loss. None of this makes any sense.


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## Hens and Roos (Jul 7, 2015)

so sorry


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## Southern by choice (Jul 7, 2015)

don't even know what to say Sky.


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## SkyWarrior (Jul 7, 2015)

Ridgetop said:


> That many kids dead means something bad is on your property and running through the herd.  You definitely need a necropsy - can you be present when it is done since it is a local vet?  I would recommend this since you can answer his questions as he is working through it.  Also, do a check on your feed, both grain and hay.  It is possible that something got sprayed on the hay crop or in the mill that doesn't affect the adults but the babies with their immature rumens might not be able to synthesize it.  Can you send samples to a lab?  This is not only heartbreaking, but potentially disastrous for your entire operation.  You need to identify it asap so you can deal with it.  The scours and deaths are the symptoms, but there has to be an underlying cause that needs to be dealt with.
> 
> One year we lost 3 consecutive sets of calves to e. coli and finally had to stop bringing in any more while we disinfected the pens, ground around the pens, feeding equipment, etc. with bleach and let it sit for a whole year.  We lost a lost of income that year since our calves paid the hay bill, not to mention the $100 apiece for the calves that died, meds, etc.  Until we found out it was e.coli we couldn't stop it.  Identification is your prime objective now.
> 
> I hope you will get answers with the necropsies.  Please post findings when you have them.  This loss is terrible.



I drove about 35-40 miles one way to get the baby to the veterinarian. SMH This is one of the few goat vets nearby. I had a choice of two.  This one did call back and asked a lot of questions. The other vet basically is busy but I could drop off the carcass and wait for word.  So, I chose the goat vet who seemed  concerned, which I know is only people manners and has little to do with actual animal care, but I needed to stress how bizarre this was.

Basically she asked the right questions.  About feed and nutrition.  About how they died.   She doesn't think it is related, but at this stage she thinks it's a good idea at this point. She is performing the necropsy after hours tonight.  She'll be sending the pathology to the state if she doesn't find anything obvious.  Those results will be about a week.

I'm pretty bummed by it all. Basically I've had 5 kids die (1 newborn at birth) out of 7.  The only thing I can do right now is figure out what happened to my healthy herd.   This year, the hay out of the Bitterroot is awful.  Full of stems and nasty.  My farrier says everyone is complaining.  I get my hay from various sources there. The deaths seem to come with more than one source of hay, so I'm not sure it's related though.   

@babsbag  and @Southern by choice -- I don't have any words at this point either.


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## goats&moregoats (Jul 7, 2015)

so sorry


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## Latestarter (Jul 7, 2015)

Wow Sky... my heart goes out to you... I'm so sorry! I'm afraid I have to agree w/@Ridgetop  There HAS to be some common denominator there... something that is affecting the kids but not (deadly to) the adults. I wish there was something I could offer in the way of help aside from condolences...  

I hope the vet/labs can get to the bottom of this before you lose the ones you have left! What a very sad finish to the start of a reasonably good year


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 7, 2015)




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## SkyWarrior (Jul 8, 2015)

Well, the vet called us this morning with results from the necropsy.  Basically a healthy kid who is dead.  Rumen in good shape -- she had even eaten and no signs of gas or bloat. No signs of trauma. No visual signs of: "Well, there's your problem." The veterinarian is sending the samples into the lab.  We will hopefully find out what might have happened. 

It is beginning to look like unless there is something that could've caused all the problems (FKS, bloat, diarrhea, something with no symptoms), I may just be having a run of bad luck.  Nutmeg was vaccinated for C&D plus tetanus so if she had Clostridium C or D, you'd think she'd be covered. Basically, it's a wait until the pathology comes back.  And hope that the two remaining kids stay healthy.


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## SkyWarrior (Jul 8, 2015)

Latestarter said:


> Wow Sky... my heart goes out to you... I'm so sorry! I'm afraid I have to agree w/@Ridgetop  There HAS to be some common denominator there... something that is affecting the kids but not (deadly to) the adults. I wish there was something I could offer in the way of help aside from condolences...
> 
> I hope the vet/labs can get to the bottom of this before you lose the ones you have left! What a very sad finish to the start of a reasonably good year



Thanks.  I've been racking my brain on this and right now we don't have anything that makes sense as to why she died.  The preliminary results of the necropsy is "I've got nothing." So until we have the pathology back, we just don't know.


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## promiseacres (Jul 8, 2015)

How frustrating


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## Latestarter (Jul 8, 2015)

I would be sooooooo aggravated if it came down to "well, we don't know... just the way things go sometimes..." Especially after losing so many kids in such a short time! I would want ANSWERS danged it!   Hope you get some!


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## bonbean01 (Jul 8, 2015)




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## SkyWarrior (Jul 9, 2015)

Latestarter said:


> I would be sooooooo aggravated if it came down to "well, we don't know... just the way things go sometimes..." Especially after losing so many kids in such a short time! I would want ANSWERS danged it!   Hope you get some!


Well, we ruled out trauma and stomach/rumen issues.  The stomach/rumen problems were with the first three, albeit different problems.  And I found out that Nutmeg had lice, albeit not a lot.  Probably brought in with either the new llama or maybe Skittles when we got him.  So, everyone got dusted.    That was a more, "oh, by the way" from the vet and not a concern, per se.    Still, an ick factor. 

I have a nasty feeling it may go the direction of "well heck, we don't know," or Nutmeg's issue may have been a weird, couldn't do anything about it type of thing like those damn biting midges that killed off the deer.  It would be just my luck to have her die from epizootic hemorrhagic disease from the midges or something weird like that.  In which case, I would end up chalking it up to the environment and not a darn thing I could do about that. And it wouldn't be related to any of the other kid deaths.  Which means I had a string of really bad luck.


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## SkyWarrior (Jul 22, 2015)

Well, we got the final necropsy results back.  

And the answer is: we had a perfectly healthy dead doeling.

Yes, that's what the state reported back.  She did have a small bit of cirrhosis that was caused by maybe eating a bad plant some time ago, but it wasn't enough to kill her.  She was recovering from that. No worms. Some chewing lice, but not uncommon and not enough to hurt her.  No liver flukes, no nothing. Nothing that would've killed her. 

So, I'll be out $150 more bucks and have no answers.  It's a lousy year and the goat gods have decided it is my turn in the bucket for dead kids.  The vet agrees with me that none of the deaths were related.  She thought basically I was doing a good job with the critters.  Doesn't save the 5 kids I lost, though.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 22, 2015)

That is so weird! Don't get me wrong, I am so happy nothing is running thru your herd but what a strange season! 

Just be glad that you spent the $150 and know that you don't have some terrible disease running throughout your herd!


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## SkyWarrior (Jul 22, 2015)

Goat Whisperer said:


> That is so weird! Don't get me wrong, I am so happy nothing is running thru your herd but what a strange season!
> 
> Just be glad that you spent the $150 and know that you don't have some terrible disease running throughout your herd!



Well, I had a nasty feeling that was the case. This is the LAST TIME I have late kiddings, if I can help it.  Of course, dealing with cold is horrible, but at least I know what might have killed them.


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## goatgurl (Jul 22, 2015)

don't ya hate it when a perfectly healthy goat dies and you can't find out why.  i had that happen last year and it drove me insane.  i feel your pain and frustration.  hope you can finally get some answers.


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## SkyWarrior (Jul 22, 2015)

goatgurl said:


> don't ya hate it when a perfectly healthy goat dies and you can't find out why.  i had that happen last year and it drove me insane.  i feel your pain and frustration.  hope you can finally get some answers.



Well, it tells me I'm doing everything right.  Just sometimes bad things happen.


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## promiseacres (Jul 22, 2015)




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## Hens and Roos (Jul 22, 2015)




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## norseofcourse (Jul 22, 2015)

It's frustrating when you can't get clear answers...  at least you know some of what it wasn't.    and I hope next year is much better.

I got the same non-results when Brosa aborted her lamb earlier this year.  They were able to rule out some infectious diseases, so that helped, but they weren't able to give a real reason for it to happen.  If it makes you feel better, the necropsy for it was $300    (that did include shipping and a lot of testing...)


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## SkyWarrior (Jul 22, 2015)

norseofcourse said:


> It's frustrating when you can't get clear answers...  at least you know some of what it wasn't.    and I hope next year is much better.
> 
> I got the same non-results when Brosa aborted her lamb earlier this year.  They were able to rule out some infectious diseases, so that helped, but they weren't able to give a real reason for it to happen.  If it makes you feel better, the necropsy for it was $300    (that did include shipping and a lot of testing...)



Well, I at least didn't need to ship. Basically, the vet did the gross necropsy and then sent the work to the state.  (The state's lab people mentioned her as one of the vets who sends stuff into them.)  Basically I paid extra for interpretation of results (probably could've figured it out as I do a fair amount of work on critters) and postage. 

It doesn't make me feel better.  $300 would've been prohibitively expensive after Thor's sudden death (Alaskan Malamute -- I owe $500 on that), Mishka's cancer (Alaskan Malamute -- diagnostics around $250), and Sid's teeth (llama -- $250).  $150 is horrible enough.  Yeah, this spring totally sucked.  I could NOT catch a break.


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## Latestarter (Jul 22, 2015)

Truly sorry Sky... what a sucky start to the year. I hope it ends well and next year is totally opposite. Amazing how quickly the costs skyrocket! Nothing like getting tapped for an unexpected grand or more...   Glad it isn't/wasn't something contagious though.


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## SkyWarrior (Jul 22, 2015)

Latestarter said:


> Truly sorry Sky... what a sucky start to the year. I hope it ends well and next year is totally opposite. Amazing how quickly the costs skyrocket! Nothing like getting tapped for an unexpected grand or more...   Glad it isn't/wasn't something contagious though.



It was as I suspected: a run of bad luck.  I had been having good luck with kids, so this year is just a reminder stuff can happen at any time.


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## babsbag (Jul 22, 2015)

I hate it when the answer is no answer. It just validates my feelings that goats like to die.   I swear they can be alive this morning and dead tonight and no warnings. It just stinks that they couldn't give you any answers but like others have said, so glad it wasn't something contagious.

Here's to a better year...you have had your share for a lifetime.


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## SkyWarrior (Jul 23, 2015)

Thanks everyone.  This year has just been the year of "stuff happens." Sometimes I think we like to have a reason we can point to and say, "See, if I did this differently, the animal might have been alive."  We don't like feeling helpless.  But sometimes it's our turn in the bucket.  



babsbag said:


> I hate it when the answer is no answer. It just validates my feelings that goats like to die.   I swear they can be alive this morning and dead tonight and no warnings. It just stinks that they couldn't give you any answers but like others have said, so glad it wasn't something contagious.
> 
> Here's to a better year...you have had your share for a lifetime.



I'll take the better year, thank you.  Way too much death this year.


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