# Kimber tangled with Cougar!! Underdogged.



## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 13, 2017)

Some of you already know my history and struggles, for those of you who don't I will outline them here. I have had two GPs for over 5 years, Smith and Wesson. 

Smith is the older one by a few months, he loves babies of all species but once they grow up he looses interest. He prefers to stay at the house and chase humans away, we love him for this, but if Wesson started chasing off coyotes, Smith would get up, look at Wesson, act like he was going to assist, then sit back down like "eh, he has this"... 

Wesson has almost always been our super star (there were times when he was a puppy...). Anyway, Wesson protected the goats, the pigs, and the chickens (and our neighbors calves) very well. We stopped loosing any chickens around the time Wesson hit 18 months. Then a while later we started loosing them again, next thing we know, Wesson is chasing away hawks from our property. No more dead chickens, chewed up goats or chewed up pigs. The next few years were great, we never had to worry about the animals because Wesson had our back.

Then last summer Wesson got sick with Neospora. This is a protozoa and is not curable once it gets into a dogs spinal chord. We were able to stop the progression but the damage was done. Somewhere around 80 chickens dead in two weeks and suddenly we were seeing coyotes again! 

We already knew that we needed more LGDs to protect our quickly growing herds and had been looking at different breeds for the past year. Suddenly, instead of buying puppies the next Spring and letting Wesson train them, we needed them right away. We had already narrowed down our search to 1) Akbash, 2) Kangal, 3) Anatolian. After talking to multiple breeders and seeing the first two we realized they were not the right fit for our farm situation. While looking at them though, we ran across the Boz. In September of 2016, Kimber arrived. 

Kimber was everything we had hoped for. Her breeder was amazing and raised her right. She was comfortable and calm around the pigs and goats from the get go. Wesson didn't want her around the chickens for the first few weeks so we respected his wishes. Of course, Kimber is fine around the chickens as well. 

In January, our next Boz, Vulcan, arrived. His breeder knew he had issues and sent him to me knowing I would never breed him and pass on his problems. Unfortunately, while he has good instincts, his joints will confine him to the same small pasture as Wesson. Both Vulcan and Wesson are good as long as they don't have to travel too far. 

*This brings us to where we were last week*, one young LGD, Kimber, who is doing a good job protecting the goats and sundry, two crippled LGDs, Wesson and Vulcan, and one LGD who only cares about chasing people away not four legged predators. *ONE HEALTHY DECENT LGD IS NOT ENOUGH TO PROTECT 32 ACRES,* over a hundred chickens, goats, and pigs!!! We knew this, we were hoping that if Kimber continued to be Little Miss Awesome and healthy to boot, we would breed her. The pups would help us/her with having the RIGHT amount of LGDs for our farm. We simply could not afford to purchase another at this time with everything else that has been going on. 

*This is what happens when an LGD doesn't have back up! 

   
*
Friday night Kimber was fine. Saturday we went out to the front and she came up to us like this. I hung up on my neighbor and called the vet. While waiting for a call back, I checked the others. None of them even had a scratch. I was not surprised, none of them have a chance of keeping up with Kimber. Luckily my vet called me back quickly and Kimber loaded willingly, if painfully, into the van. (I am so glad I worked with her on her vehicle issues!) There were two of my vets there even though the clinic was closed. The first, who I talked to over the phone, was surprised and said "that is even worse than you said!" (I really don't think so, I think it was because I wasn't freaking out) My other vet saw her as well, "Wow, that's bad!"  Yes, that is why I brought her... On a weekend... and didn't take care of it myself...  Kimber recognized her and went straight up to her for love. The vet was able to manipulate it and get a good idea of how bad it was. 

Now, this is the vet where I work. Kimber wasn't the only emergency and they were didn't have enough help. I helped sedate Kimber and got her on the table, then went to assist in an emergency goat c-section. I know, leaving Kimber was terrible. I did it for three reasons, 1) I have helped clean a lot of wounds and have never seen or assisted in a goat c-section, 2) I absolutely trusted the vet who was working on her, and 3) the other assistant they had has helped a lot with wound cleaning and doesn't care for livestock but I do.  We finished the goat long before they finished cleaning out Kimber's injury.



 

Kimber was under for more than 3 hours while they cleaned out the wound and assessed the damage to the muscles. 
This is what they found:

Both holes in the skin were fairly smooth
There was only one puncture in the skin located between the two holes
There were punctures in the muscle that were not easy to find
Tooth or claw made its way in between her ribs and messed up some cartilage
The muscles were so swollen/filled they had a really hard time determining the extent of the damage
Conclusions:

Ruled out: Barbed wire, neighbors bull, car, coyote/dog, gunshot, anything small
Whatever it was had a lot of power behind the bite or swipe to cause that kind of trauma to the muscles
Claws or teeth were used


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 13, 2017)

This breed doesn't do well under sedation or anesthesia. I warned the vet of that but she started waking up during surgery so they gave her another dose of sedative. Because of this, Kimber took hours to come to after the surgery. Rather than reversing her I stayed and assisted with the other emergencies that were coming in. Kimber spent her time from 6:30 pm until she finally really woke up at 11:30 pm on the floor in the middle of the work area. 

    

We spent the evening stepping over and around her while caring for the other emergencies. I think she liked it the few times she woke up because every any of us went around or near her she got more attention. Honestly, I started thinking she was hamming it up... But I didn't care. 



 

Even with the long recovery time, she still started getting sick in the car when we got close to home. She waited a bit before bothering to get out of the van (I wasn't about to hurry her), I tried to help her but I think she knew better what to do and what not to do than I did. 

Kimber's home for the next few weeks will be in the house. Luckily I have made sure all my LGDs are potty trained for this kind of situation. At the moment, Kimber is only standing if she needs to go to the bathroom. She walks to the door and just stares at it. We put a leash on her and take her out. She has no problems coming back inside while she is feeling this badly. She has to take 5 pills twice a day. Instead of fighting with her (you can't sneak pills past her) I have already started teaching her that pills are good things. Remember this, if you ever have to give your dogs pills, always give really great treats afterwards. After getting the dog treats Saturday night and Sunday morning, Kimber was a little less resistant for Saturday night's dose. After receiving a nice juicy chunk of deer liver Saturday night, she was downright easy this morning!!! She just let me put the pills in, swallowed, and looked straight at the liver in my youngest DS's hands. We are hopeful that her muscles will heal properly and not cause problems.

Yesterday, a pitt bull was in my goat pasture chasing my goats. Shall we cover the dog situation again? I have 2 cripples, 1 who doesn't care, and NOW 1 who is stuck in the house injured..... *4 LGDs - 4 LGDs = 0 LGDs guarding my livestock!*


*The moral of the story is this; please, please, please make sure you have the right amount of LGDs for your farm, fencing, livestock, and predator load!!!*


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## Pastor Dave (Nov 13, 2017)

Cougar or bear?


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## Hens and Roos (Nov 13, 2017)

oh wow poor girl- sorry to see that she is injured.   for a smooth recovery.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 13, 2017)

@Pastor Dave, I forgot to mention in the post... We have had black bears a few times on our property. The pyrs always chased them off. However, Kimber is Considerably faster than they are even at their best and could have easily caught up to one. We have cougars in my county for sure. One of my friends had goats, horses, and her dogs attacked and killed by one (or more) over the years. But she is 45 minutes north of me through a pass and a ridge separates us. We have had no evidence of one around where I live.

@Hens and Roos,  us too!


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## Southern by choice (Nov 13, 2017)

I talked with @dejavoodoo114  last night- After setting aside the emotional aspect and worrying about Kimber we talked about how important it is for people to see and know these things. Thank you Deja for posting!
The efforts of deja to be fully covered have just been a nightmare- it certainly has not been because of a mindset of "I don't need more than one"
I am so glad she put this post up for a few reasons...

1) no matter how many phone consults I do I still hear how "I don't think we need more than one dog" - going over and over why under-dogging is so dangerous

2) understanding that LGD's can end up like this- often people forget this and have NO plan if something like this happens

3) training your lgd to trust you, be able to come into the house or some place for safe recuperation without the dog freaking out is critical- being able to handle your LGD in a crisis is imperative

4) Notice the attempts to fully dog the property-  this is commendable

5) Fencing fencing fencing is important! Also land size. Some will read this and say well 30 acres justifies more than one dog- I only have 5 acres blah blah blah-
LAND SIZE is irrelevant! Dog for predator type/load/and number of livestock.

Deja thanks for posting again! Smooches to Kimber tell her that her Auntie Southern loves her. (she won't care but it'll make me feel better)


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## Sara Ranch (Nov 13, 2017)

@dejavoodoo114 - *hugs* to both of you!  I hope Kimber makes a full recovery.


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## babsbag (Nov 13, 2017)

I am so sorry about your baby. I know these are working dogs but I also know that they are much more than that to you. Sounds like you are going to be looking for another dog or two, but in the meantime...OUCH...what to do is a real problem. Praying that she heals up quickly with no problems.


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## LocoYokel (Nov 13, 2017)

What a beautiful dog and what a nasty wound! Wishing her a fast recovery...


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## Latestarter (Nov 13, 2017)

So so sorry that this has happened to you and Kimber.  You've tried so hard to do it right and "dog up", but have been hit with one thing after another. I'm thankful that you didn't outright lose her to whatever did this. I hope whatever it was paid a similar price. Best wishes that she recovers fully from this ordeal and isn't marred physically or mentally from it. I'm sure she'll be happy to be back with her animals when that time comes. Meanwhile, there'd be a hole needing dug for that pit bull.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 13, 2017)

@babsbag, we have kind of been looking for other dogs. Only our current financial situation has kept us from getting more right now. We have been hoping Kimber will continue to be awesome so that we could breed her and get more just like her.

Kimber is feeling better this afternoon. This weekend she has been growly with the other dogs and last night growled and lunged (sort of, she didn't end up getting up all the way) at the inside cat. Today when I got home the cat sauntered into the living room, Kimber was standing next to me and started toward the cat. I said "Agh!" and Kimber stopped. I put my hand on her shoulders and she just looked at the cat. I had my youngest DS take the cat into a different room. All of this was happening while I was on the phone. 

Well, the cat came back when I wasn't paying as much attention. Kimber climbed the two stairs to the dining room before I could stop her but rather than saying/doing anything I noticed she was more relaxed and moving slowly. Then her tail started to wag. I didn't stop her as she approached the cat and started licking her head while the cat objected loudly!  Kimber's tongue is as wide or more than the cat's head! 

I am glad that I payed attention to her body language. Knowing I don't have to worry anymore about her hurting the cat is a relief. Don't get me wrong, she has always been good about cats before. We even used Kimber to test 3 foster kitties to see how they were around dogs because she is so good with them.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 13, 2017)

@Latestarter, regarding the pit bull, I would have shot it rather than trying to capture it. But my DH was home and thought it belonged to our new neighbor so he caught it and tied it up. Since it is now tied up, I am just going to bring it to the pound. Talk about emphasizing my lack of LGD problem though!!


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## Baymule (Nov 13, 2017)

Take it to the pound a couple of counties away.........

Big hugs (gentle ones) to Kimber. I love Kimber and hate to see her like this, she has heart for what she does and is one awesome dog. Now about those puppies....... cough cough ..........surely you won't need ALL of them!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 13, 2017)

@Baymule, Taking it to a pound a couple counties away is actually a great idea. I could have taken it with me to Knoxville today and not had to wait until our little backwater opens tomorrow! 

Kimber absolutely loves hugs. She doesn't mind pets but she doesn't love them like hugs. When you go out to the pasture or, if she is out, go outside and go up to her, she calmly approaches and pauses facing you, barely touching. This is your invitation to hug her. She loves the hug, whether its short or a minute or longer. Not the back slapping kind either. When you let go she just walks away and goes about her business. 

I find it ironic that you mention the puppies right now. The guy I was on the phone with is the one who has been hoping I would breed Kimber to his male since she got here! I told him I would consider it but would not guarantee anything. I can not even guarantee she will be bred. She still has some growing to do and testing to be done. I also want to see how this injury affects her both physically and emotionally/temperamentally. But oh boy, would I love a whole bunch more just like her!!


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## Latestarter (Nov 13, 2017)

So when that time comes, I can visit with Fred and Mike on my way over to get one...  or on the way back so they can see it   Glad she's up and around some and didn't take her pain out on your cat.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 13, 2017)

Baymule said:


> Take it to the pound a couple of counties away.........
> 
> Big hugs (gentle ones) to Kimber. I love Kimber and hate to see her like this, she has heart for what she does and is one awesome dog. Now about those puppies....... cough cough ..........surely you won't need ALL of them!



LOL- She has already told me I am first on the list!


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## Kimberly83 (Nov 13, 2017)

I"m so sorry!  ..... I noticed you were in East TN. Could you tell me which area? I ask because I am in East TN & about a month ago I saw a GINORMOUS COUGAR at the edge of the woods by my house. I was in shock and didnt have time to even grab a photo. I had my cell phone but it was about 120 yards away from me and I only saw it for maybe 5 seconds before it walked into the woods. This thing was a monster. My husband had a hard time believing me because he has never witnessed one but I know without a shadow of a doubt what I saw. He thought I mistook it for another animal, I know exactly what I saw...a huge cat. TWRA has said that there have been some sightings but in order to report I think you have to provide photos or video so I didnt bother calling them.


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## babsbag (Nov 13, 2017)

Cougars have the biggest tail of any animal I have ever seen. I have only seen one in the wild and was totally unprepared for its size...and its tail. 

Two of my LGDs are great with cats, that other two are an unknown. The house cats live with dogs, but not with the LGDs so I wasn't sure of the outcome. I was pleased to see that they all get along. That means that I can have a house LGD when she gets a little older and needs to retire. I just wish that she wouldn't run off when the gate is open; it is her only fault.


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## Baymule (Nov 13, 2017)

My GP's love hugs too. I sit on a milk crate in the sheep lot and hug my female. At night I go out and call the male and hug him when he trots up out of the darkness. I love dog hugs!


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## Southern by choice (Nov 13, 2017)

Baymule said:


> My GP's love hugs too. I sit on a milk crate in the sheep lot and hug my female. At night I go out and call the male and hug him when he trots up out of the darkness. I love dog hugs!



Me too Bay! Cannot imagine the hands off mentality.
When D hugs me (or I, him) you can "feel" that love and just breathe it in... it is as if though I'm absorbing that energy.
Then he drool ropes my head.


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## babsbag (Nov 13, 2017)

Sigueme runs in front of me and flops in my path until I give belly rubs; she does this repeatedly. I could just love on her all day long and she would let me. When she had one of her litters of puppies she spent her entire labor with her head in my lap. No hands off around here.


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## pippomky75 (Nov 13, 2017)

wow, I'm so sorry!  We moved to our place in the country a few years ago and noticed not one farm or ranch around us has less than five dogs.  We made jokes that we have to get moving to catch up with the neighbors.  I see now, it is no laughing matter.  Two dogs were surrendered to us, a 12 year old boarder collie and an 11 month old Saint Bernard. She (the BC) is very smart with great instincts, but old and not moving very quick.  He (the Saint) has all the vigor of youth and the full helping of stupidity that comes with it.  I wonder after reading your post if they are ok, or if we should look into adding dogs.  we have a very active coyote population.  My heart breaks for yours I hope she recovers quickly and is not in a lot of pain.  Thank you for your post


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## babsbag (Nov 13, 2017)

There are dogs and then there are Livestock Guardian Dogs. They aren't the same, they have different jobs and different mentalities and once you own an LGD you will never be without one. I have 4 and adore them all. The most common breeds are probably Great Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepherd, Maremma, and Akbash. There are many other breeds, but those are the ones you see most often.  There is a forum on BYH for just LGDs, there is a lot of reading in there, could keep you busy for a long long time.   If you don't have an LGD you should get one. Yes, we are all enablers.


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## Latestarter (Nov 14, 2017)

I second what Babs said. Just because a dog is a true LGD breed, doesn't mean it will absolutely become a true LGD... Some prefer to be companions or people guardians


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## Pastor Dave (Nov 14, 2017)

I have not owned a LGD or needed one, but have had German Shepherds as working dogs. I believe you can love them and vice versa and still expect the service they are trained for. Just my opinion.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 14, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> LOL- She has already told me I am first on the list!


Very, very true!  Sorry Bay! 



babsbag said:


> When she had one of her litters of puppies she spent her entire labor with her head in my lap.


While Kimber was waking up, she would moan until I got down on the floor so she could set her head in my lap. That is where I spent much of my time Saturday night and Sunday. Such a spoiled adorable darling!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 14, 2017)

@Kimberly83, yes we have mountain lions in our county. I have not heard of sightings in my part of it though. A friend in a different part of my county said the wound looked like wounds her goats, dogs, and horses got from mountain lions. She did finally get pictures of that mountain lion but at the time, TN was still denying that they were here!


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## babsbag (Nov 14, 2017)

Cracks me up when DFG claim that there are no M. lions in a particular state. As if the animals stop at the state lines. 

If it was a M. Lion be thankful that Kimber is alive. One dog is no match for a cat.


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## CntryBoy777 (Nov 14, 2017)

That is a terrible situation deja, sure glad ya was able to catch it in time and get that horrible wound tended too. I would lean more towards a bear, but I'm sure there are cats in the area and even here about 2mnths ago just 25mi north of us a black panther was videoed, but never caught....they are akin to the Florida panther which is a bit smaller than a cougar...but still deadly. Sorry too, that there are difficulties with your other dogs....have ya not had a chance to string electic wire? 
I am hoping to expand some here next year, but have a few decisions to make before hand and predators are something I have to factor in and take a serious look at....I appreciate ya sharing your experience because it certainly gives much food for thought.....


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## Baymule (Nov 14, 2017)

Southern by choice said: ↑
LOL- She has already told me I am first on the list! 



dejavoodoo114 said:


> Very, very true!  Sorry Bay!



That's OK, I'll take SECOND on the list right after SBC!!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 14, 2017)

@babsbag, that always cracked me up to! I kept trying to figure out how that made sense! My father insisted we learn all about cougars since we always hunted on Mt. St. Helens. What TN was saying was absurd. I also know that cougars can kill a dog very quickly. However, my friend north of me had similar wounds on her animals from a cougar. They seem to like an easy kill and if they don't get it they go elsewhere. Whether a cougar or a bear, I have a feeling Kimber was the instigator/chaser. 

@CntryBoy777, I also am leaning more towards a bear. While a mountain lion could have done it, we have had bears here before. And, no, I do not have hotwire surrounding all of my property. We are working towards that goal. In the meantime, we have separate pasture areas. Hence the problem with not enough LGDs. Kimber is able to get into and out of the goat pasture when we allow and we often allow this with her so she can move all around the property and is not only watching the goats. This is what Wesson always did previous to his sickness. With separating the animals, more dogs is even more critical. 



Baymule said:


> Southern by choice said: ↑
> LOL- She has already told me I am first on the list!
> 
> That's OK, I'll take SECOND on the list right after SBC!!


 Sounds good as long as I can spare another!


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 14, 2017)

I am a bit late here- but I saw your post on FB and SBC told me about dear Kimber 

Poor girl That looks terrible! So glad she is doing better now. It must heave been terrible finding her like this. I know someone on this forum lost their Pyr to a pack of 7 coyotes, so thankful Kimber made it through this.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 14, 2017)

Today when I got home, Kimber was standing and waiting for us. After taking her out, she came back in and spent a large part of the evening going from person to person for hugs and love!  If she wasn't already showing signs of annoyance at being stuck inside I might start to worry I was spoiling her rotten.  When I went upstairs for the night, I reached down to pet her (she prefers walk ways for resting) and she rested her head on my feet. When I tried to go past she stretched out her head to block the pathway! Naturally, I caved and petted her some more...

She is still in quite a bit of pain and favors her left foreleg but she is "feeling" better every day. Her drain tubes are certainly working. DH said this evening our living room looked like a slaughter house! Again, I am thankful we put tile in the living room. We did this so sick/injured goats, pigs etc. would have a place where we could keep a close eye on them. Yup, in the house next to a wood stove... 

We are doing our best to keep her from scratching or licking the wound. For the most part, she licks the drainage but when she scratches sometimes she catches at the back drain. There is still so much drainage that I do not want to try and cover it at all.

Also, I have, in the past, reduced the pain meds as an aid to controlling "self-destructive" behavior. I am not there yet with Kimber because I feel the muscle pain is worse than skin damage. As she starts moving around more comfortably, I may get there in the hopes she will be less likely to move too much or scratch too much.


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## Baymule (Nov 14, 2017)

Kimber deserves spoiling......... jus' saying......


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## babsbag (Nov 15, 2017)

Glad to hear that she is doing better and she deserves all the snuggles and hugs you have time to give. 

How to allow dogs access to all the fields can be a challenge; I was just studying that dilemma today.   3 of mine will go through the top part of a gate but I two are getting older and I hate to see them do that. Also, I had Sigueme get her foot cut doing that so I am really looking for another way. Mia won't go over a gate at all so she stays wherever I put her...it is good and bad.  I am looking at building jump gates and we will see how smart my goats are, hoping they aren't smart at all. Also hoping that the gates are quick to build as time is not something I have a lot of.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 19, 2017)

Well, Kimber has continued to improve. She feels better though she is still limping. These are some pictures from this past week.

   

These are pictures of Kimber begging for a petting! 
   

And some more from Friday.
   

This morning when I went downstairs she started whining. I just had to laugh, it isn't an uncomfortable type of whine but a "pet me please!" type of whine! She just kept following me around giving me that "love me" look.  So cute!

Unfortunately, I also noticed today that she ripped a hole in her stiches sometime last night.  I am going to have to see what I can do about that now the terd.


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## CntryBoy777 (Nov 19, 2017)

In a way that could be a good sign tho...the healing stitches always gets itchy, so she was probably scratching them. Do ya put a dab on neosporin on them to keep them a bit moist so it doesn't itch so much?


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 19, 2017)

They have seemed to stay fairly moist by themselves. I do not actually have neosporin. Is there something else that might work for that as well? We have been putting a warm soaked rag over it on occasion to help things and try and keep it a little cleaner.


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## CntryBoy777 (Nov 19, 2017)

Any brand of triple antibiotic ointment would do, but if it feels too greasy or wet to her she will lick it, so just a dab can cover a fairly sizeable area....I've q-tips to apply it....are they the absorbing stitches or will they have to be removed?


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 19, 2017)

They are staples actually. So they will have to be removed. I do not have any triple antibiotic ointment unfortunately.


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## CntryBoy777 (Nov 19, 2017)

I've never had to deal with staples....guess I'm too old school and behind the times, the ointment is good because it promotes healing, but it also works as a soothing agent in lessening the itch.....I sure hope she heals well for ya, I know it is very stressful dealing with the whole situation....


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## High Desert Cowboy (Nov 19, 2017)

If you don’t have neosporin you could always use something like Preparation H.  An old cowboy taught me that years ago and it’s worked as a wound salve for my dogs and horses for years.  Though that may have been cause they were acting like a backside to necessitate treatment!


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## Latestarter (Nov 19, 2017)

And it would/should help with any swelling issues as well.   A bit of vaseline would do the trick as well... just a dab and spread well. Looks like she's still draining... I would have thought she'd be past that by now. She's such a good dog and a sweetie to boot. How can you walk past, seeing that face, and NOT give some lovin'?


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 19, 2017)

Latestarter said:


> She's such a good dog and a sweetie to boot. How can you walk past, seeing that face, and NOT give some lovin'?


That is exactly the problem! Walking past her without stopping and loving on her is simply impossible!


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## Sara Ranch (Nov 19, 2017)

Then I say give her some love.  *hugs*

I was thinking about Kimber yesterday and wondering how she was doing.  I am happy to hear that she is healing well.


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 19, 2017)

So happy she is doing better. Such a sweet face! Callie would stretch her paw out and try to grab you when she you walked by, she was to lazy to get up 

Give her some extra smooches and a hug for me! Thanks for keeping us posted. I know she is in excellent hands!


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## Pastor Dave (Nov 19, 2017)

I like using Vetericyn spray jel. It is kinda expensive, but safe to lick and if gets in eyes.


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## goatgurl (Nov 19, 2017)

just checking in with everyone and read about kimbers wounds.  poor baby girl, i'm so glad she is getting better slowly but surely.  I so totally understand about the underdogging with your animals.  I was so scared for my Katie for 2 years before I got marco.  sometimes you just have to do what you can do and pray for the best.  Katie is so much more comfortable and relaxed with marc here.  having backup is so important for them.
give miss Kimber hugs and snuggles from me.  and I have to agree with pastor dave on the vetericyn.  good stuff


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 19, 2017)

If @dejavoodoo114 is actually giving all those loves/hugs/kisses that we are "sending" Kimber, she has got to be the most loved dog EVER 

I think she has a lot of fans  What's not to love about that face?!


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## Simpleterrier (Nov 19, 2017)

Just a question how much exercise is she getting or how much does she need?  Should she not move much or is it ok for her to run about. Or is it better that she runs about. I was just thinking about it and couldn't come up with  the right answer. You know like physical therapy


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## BrendaMNgri (Nov 19, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> I talked with @dejavoodoo114  last night- After setting aside the emotional aspect and worrying about Kimber we talked about how important it is for people to see and know these things. Thank you Deja for posting!
> The efforts of deja to be fully covered have just been a nightmare- it certainly has not been because of a mindset of "I don't need more than one"
> I am so glad she put this post up for a few reasons...
> 
> ...



SBC, we do not always see eye to eye on many topics but this time, I do commend you for this post. You hit on many good points.

All I will add is this: I would strongly advise against breeding for a litter. The OP states "they can't afford" to buy another LGD.
IMHO - they can't afford NOT to.

Rearing a litter is all the cost of buying one dog and much, much more. And waiting months - a year or more - till pups can work.

Also you indicated joint issues with the Boz. Don't spread that by breeding. As you know, I got out of Boz due to too many health issues,
and had to put my Boz down for extreme elbow displaysia.

Please reconsider breeding, and focus your efforts on finding another LGD - and, perhaps open your mind to other breeds other than what you have.
By doing so, you'll increase your chances of finding something sooner. It'd be one thing if you were already dogged up and had the luxury of
waiting for pups to grow up. Frankly, you don't have that luxury. You are in a bad spot and need more dogs now, not two years from now.

What happened to your dog is nothing out of the ordinary in the hardcore world of real working LGDs exposed to large predators. You are blessed
with luck the dog survived.

Land size does come into play as some dogs can't be kept content on smaller acreage, they need room to reduce tension that can come about
if you have dogs not getting along and not enough "air" between them. Predators or no predators. Again, speaking from experience. 32 acres can support
a lot of dogs if they are run properly and under good, tight fence.

Look into bulking up your other anti-predator efforts (fencing, hot fence, night penning, and more.)

I will have an article coming out in Goat Journal next year about clients of mine in California in huge predator load country of bear, lion, coyotes, running 200 head
of commercial goats on huge, thick brush acreage. No goat losses. No dog conflicts. They have worked hard to put a great plan into effect and a lot includes
fencing. Their success story and how they are pulling it off (btw they own 7 LGDs from me, Spanish Mastiffs, Pyrenean Mastiff, Spanish Mastiff crosses, and in addition
to them, Kuvasz and Anatolian) will be hopefully in the Jan/Feb Goat Journal magazine. You might want to get your hands on a copy and see how they did it.

Hope your dog makes clean recovery. And again open your mind to looking into other breeds or crosses to increase your chance of finding a good going LGD.


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## Baymule (Nov 19, 2017)

I am glad that Kimber is making such a good recovery. That was a close one. She is an awesome dog, give her a hug from me too!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 23, 2017)

Pastor Dave said:


> I like using Vetericyn spray jel. It is kinda expensive, but safe to lick and if gets in eyes.



I used to swear by vetericyn until I found out it was nothing but chlorine and water in a "patented" formula. After this, I have found equal success using hydrogen peroxide and/or alcohol etc to clean wounds. 



Goat Whisperer said:


> If @dejavoodoo114 is actually giving all those loves/hugs/kisses that we are "sending" Kimber, she has got to be the most loved dog EVER
> 
> Seriously GW!! She is SOOO Spoiled now!!!
> 
> I think she has a lot of fans  What's not to love about that face?!



It really doesn't help that every time someone walks by, she whines and simply "begs" for attention!!! 



Simpleterrier said:


> Just a question how much exercise is she getting or how much does she need?  Should she not move much or is it ok for her to run about. Or is it better that she runs about. I was just thinking about it and couldn't come up with  the right answer. You know like physical therapy



At this point, we are still trying to keep her exercise to a minimum. She just got back from the vet AGAIN and they had to put her under to correct the damage she did to her staples and stitches. Unfortunately, she had to be put under for the "clean up". I really do not want her stressing her damaged muscles by climbing the stairs. I can absolutely assure you that when her muscles and body are ready, (or a little before) I will insist that she is exercising those muscles and that whole area. In the meantime, she is only allowed outside on a leash to go to the bathroom and otherwise is locked inside. I have had other LGD injuries and in my experience, you want to ensure that their injuries recover before they are really able to work again. For us, we have a small back yard and our pastures. I do not want injured dogs in the pastures. They need time to heal. 
MOST Importantly, I follow my vet"s advice. (My experience in vet med is all in livestock medicine, not dogs....)


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## Southern by choice (Nov 23, 2017)

I agree, they must have time to heal. It is also a balance- giving too many "pain killers" and or anti inflammatory meds can cause them to do too much too soon and do more damage. 

Let me guess- every time you walk by her and she is laying down she sticks out that long lanky front leg. 

I like chlorhexadine wash and iodine.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 23, 2017)

@BrendaMNgri, there is a lot that we do not agree on. But there is much that you posted in my thread that we can agree on. 



BrendaMNgri said:


> I would strongly advise against breeding for a litter. The OP states "they can't afford" to buy another LGD.
> IMHO - they can't afford NOT to.



I ABSOLUTELY agree that we are absolutely desperate for LGDs at this point. The problem with looking at another LGD rather than breeding (I assure that I fully understand the time frame on breeding) is not so much that we can't afford AN LGD. It is more a matter of not being able to afford 4 or 5 LGDs all at once!!!  I assure you, I wish this were not the case but well bred LGDs are not cheap, as I assume you well know. We are TRYING to adjust to being underdogged, if things had gone to plan (Wesson had not ended up with Neospora) we would be much better off. As it is.... Our only other LGD (who was never a real LGD) has now been missing for over a week. This is the guy who never left our front yard... We only kept him (safe as he is around all livestock, including chickens) because he hated people...... Talk about stress...



BrendaMNgri said:


> As you know, I got out of Boz due to too many health issues



You and I talked via pm, I knew you long before I bought a Boz and WELL before you joined this site, much less "met" me. Even my genetic"s professor suggested avoiding brindles when the color was not common to the breed. Then my vet did the same. Vulcan was a pity purchase, so that I could neuter a beautiful LGD (I assure you, he is an LGD) and no one would be tempted to breed him. (I really only payed shipping for him). 

Kimber is perfect and has NO health issues whatsoever (that I have tested for yet). I didn't actually pay much/anything for Vulcan as his breeder was very honest about his 8 week old testing and the issues that popped up. Since I already needed a smaller pasture for Wesson, I thought Vulcan would do well there as well. OR, if he if ended up without major issues, then he could really do his job but NEVER be bred. Hence the VERY early (8 months) neutering. I wanted NO accidents with his genetics....

I really must say again however, thanks to you, and the others, who objected so strenuously to poor health performance, many of the Boz dogs imported now are soooooo much better than they were in the beginning when you and your friends were involved. 



BrendaMNgri said:


> Please reconsider breeding, and focus your efforts on finding another LGD - and, perhaps open your mind to other breeds other than what you have.
> By doing so, you'll increase your chances of finding something sooner. It'd be one thing if you were already dogged up and had the luxury of
> waiting for pups to grow up. Frankly, you don't have that luxury. You are in a bad spot and need more dogs now, not two years from now.



Again, I really am in need of good LGDs now rather than later. As I learned, here and elsewhere, good LGDs are not cheap. I need 4-6 more just for the parts I already have fenced in with our predator load. If you consider a minimum of 1K per dog, that is far too much money for us to be able to put out. Also, that is generally for an okay potential LGD AS A PUPPY.  Whereas, I have an excellent breed, who is an excellent example of the breed and of LGDs, (if I can find and arrange for an equal male) to be able to fill my needs. I am well aware of the time line. That is why I stopped looking for more pups. I need adults ready to work, they are not so easy to find unless you have a lot of money to put forward. Keeping in mind that I need more than just 1 adult. 

This means that any puppies are not going to be helpful to us for years to come. Whether we breed them or we buy them. We are doing what we can to protect our livestock by locking them up when possible until we can get back to the point where we can rely once again on our LGDs for protection.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 23, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Let me guess- every time you walk by her and she is laying down she sticks out that long lanky front leg.




Or her beautiful "little" head!!!  She is such a Sucker for attention right now!!! And I am a such a sucker for her!!!  I just have to stop and love the adorable little pup! I just wish she had back up or she likely would not have been injured in this way. Or at least, whatever it was would have been dealt with.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 23, 2017)

Well, I haven't officially updated here. I am going to start with the pics of us on the way to the vet because they are just cute. 

   

These are the pics of why I brought her back to the vet. She had torn out her staples and the stitches underneath.


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## Latestarter (Nov 23, 2017)

Sorry the poor girl isn't healing up faster. Sucks that the staples didn't hold. Hope this go-round does the trick.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 23, 2017)

Because I am morbid, or maybe it is my "vet" side, I have even more pictures...
  

They had to keep her Monday evening and put her back under on Tuesday for surgery again to fix the damage she had done. I picked her up as they were closing Tuesday night. She was so wobbly she tried falling asleep in her food bowl!!!


 



Anyway, we tried to keep her happy with deer bones and such...
 

These are pictures of how she looks after her second surgery.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 23, 2017)

Latestarter said:


> Sorry the poor girl isn't healing up faster. Sucks that the staples didn't hold. Hope this go-round does the trick.



I certainly wish the staples would have held. At this point, they have removed some of the drainage tubes and put in another. We should remove the tubes next Tuesday or so, and the stitches they opted for next Friday... I sure hope things work out according to plan this time!!!


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## Latestarter (Nov 23, 2017)

Are those Langstroth deeps I see off to the side in the one picture? You gonna do bees this coming spring? The whole wound area looks much better now. Of course a lot of that is due it having been cleaned up. What a sweetie, falling asleep in her food bowl... Awwwww just screams for a hug and kiss.


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## Baymule (Nov 23, 2017)

Poor girl! Big hugs and smoochies for Kimber!


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## CntryBoy777 (Nov 23, 2017)

It is really tough dealing with such a difficult situation, with such a wound.....it does seem sometimes that they can be their own worst enemy in reopening the wound....sure do hope that she will heal enough before the next time and the trauma can come to an end really soon for you and her. Here is one for you.... and another for strength.......and yet another for Kimber....


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 24, 2017)

Latestarter said:


> Are those Langstroth deeps I see off to the side in the one picture? You gonna do bees this coming spring?


I don't actually know what those are! Which picture are you referring to?
But yes, the wound area does look better. The cleaning helped but taking out some of the tubes and stitches, and adding more/different ones helped. 

@CntryBoy777, it is frustrating when you see them messing up their own healing injuries. I do wish they could realize that doing so is NOT helping!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 24, 2017)

On another note... Smith has been missing since a day or two after Kimber's injuries.... He was the only healthy LGD we had left, even if we always called him our useless LGD.... We have been trying to find him, or at least find out what happened to him. We have had no luck whatsoever. Smith rarely even left the front yard for crying out loud.... I remember when Wesson got sick, this is one of the reasons we were so concerned.


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## CntryBoy777 (Nov 24, 2017)

That sure doesn't sound good at all and I can understand the angst that causes..... I'd much rather know an outcome, than to just sit and wonder about what may have happened. I really hope he shows up and is okay....ya truly have been put thru the wringer already.....


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## Baymule (Nov 24, 2017)

Not know what has happened to your dog is something that will haunt you. I had an Aussie disappear 32 years ago and I still wonder what happened to her. I chased down pick up trucks with blue merle Aussies in the back probably for 4 or 5 years. I am so sorry Smith is missing.


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## babsbag (Nov 24, 2017)

So sorry Smith is MIA. My dogs seldom get out but when they do I always wished I had a GPS collar on them. Hope that you get some answers, if nothing else.


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## Latestarter (Nov 24, 2017)

Wow, seems like you're getting one hit after another. Sorry Smith has gone missing and sure hope you can find out a status on him. Any chance he might have been involved with Kimber and what attacked her, and didn't make it? On the bee keeping, I was commenting on what looked like Langstroth hive deeps off to the right side of the pic.




They look just like stackable bee boxes.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 24, 2017)

@Latestarter, OH! Those are games, like risk and monopoly in wooden boxes.  Not that we haven't wanted bee's. They are just not something we are willing to start yet. And probably not for at least another 4 or 5 years.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 27, 2017)

I really thought it was a bear. Even if a mountain lion would be more likely to attack in that way... I still thought it was a bear!! Bears are only dangerous if provoked and I had no doubt Kimber would chase one until it reacted. I now know it was in fact a freakin MOUNTAIN LION!!! 

I was asleep this morning when I heard Vulcan barking and something yowling at 4:30 am. As I swam towards consciousness, the standoff continued. Vulcan barking, cat (making cat noises...). I was slowly realizing that this was bad and was climbing out of bed to get my "problem solver" when the stand off finally ended and Vulcan started chasing it!!  I listened to him barking at it/chasing it until he was almost a mile away. That woke me up like a cold bucket of water being dumped on me! I was sure we just lost another LGD to a FREAKIN MOUNTAIN LION!!! 

Now, I have no way to assure you that this was no house cat. I actually told my husband, when I woke him, that it might have been a bobcat (we have those here no doubt). It wasn't until I compared the sounds the two made tonight that there was NO DOUBT what was outside my window IN MY FRONT YARD this morning!!!

My blood is boiling... This kitty is going to die...


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 27, 2017)

This kitty needs to die!  If it's coming in that close it has no fear.  May your aim be true!   You have to avenge Kimber!


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## CntryBoy777 (Nov 27, 2017)

So, did Vulcan return?....I'd have something special really handy by the bed and sleep with ya britches on....even ic ya have to aim out a door or window...and take the shot for most damage.....hope ya get that critter!!.....if ya said it, then I believe ya.....no reason to doubt it.


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## Baymule (Nov 27, 2017)

This is bad. This cat has no fear and can only return to do more damage. I hope you get it.


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## babsbag (Nov 27, 2017)

That is a bold cat. I am hoping and praying that you get it soon. I have to wonder about Smith...


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## Latestarter (Nov 27, 2017)

Even if DNR says there are no cougars in your neck of the woods, I'll be willing to bet if they find you've killed one, there'll be hell to pay along with fines, possible jail time, etc.  I suggest you contact them and make them aware of your situation, the damage to Kimber, the missing status of Smith, and what has recently happened with Vulcan. and seek their assistance in trapping and removing the cat. Barring that, at least you'll know the possible ramifications if you do (get the opportunity to) kill it. 

I hope Vulcan returned unharmed, I hope (still) that Smith wasn't a meal and turns back up (though after this long a time, that seems doubtful). Hope Kimber is continuing to improve. Hope you get this situation corrected satisfactorily... as in no further issues.


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## babsbag (Nov 28, 2017)

I just looked it up...

"It is illegal to kill a cougar in Tennessee except in the case of imminent threat of life and injury. Also, if a landowner is experiencing property damage made by wildlife, that landowner has the right to protect his/her property."


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## Wehner Homestead (Nov 28, 2017)

Following. Hugs to Kimber and praying that you find Smith without injuries and that Vulcan remains unharmed from his encounter. Please update us.


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## Baymule (Nov 28, 2017)

SSS


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 28, 2017)

Baymule said:


> SSS


Yep


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## Pastor Dave (Nov 29, 2017)

SSS?


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## Baymule (Nov 29, 2017)

Pastor Dave said:


> SSS?



Shoot Shovel Shutup


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## Mike CHS (Nov 29, 2017)

The state denied there were any in middle Tennessee until someone got some good video on a game camera in Humphreys County, Tenn west of Nashville.  You can legally protect your livestock here.


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## Latestarter (Nov 29, 2017)

The problem, as I see it with trying to obey the law(s) is that they are so contradictory. Yes, you CAN protect your livestock from actual predation... BUT... then they add exceptions by stating that it's illegal to kill/harm a cougar unless it's engaged in a life threatening act. Key word is the term "engaged" & who's life? human? livestock? pets? everything is worded so vaguely (many times on purpose IMHO) to open the window to prosecute as and when chosen. 

As a govt agency, I don't trust DNR any more than the rest of our govt. Even though they deny the presence of the cats, there's a good chance that said cougar has been tracked/microchipped/collared/whatever, and when it stops moving, they can go right to it and the deed will be discovered. SSS was at one time a very viable solution, and still is today in some instances. Maybe not so much anymore in others... Different world we're in today.


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## AClark (Nov 29, 2017)

Exactly that Late. The wording is so ambiguous, that it's difficult to tell whether or not you are legal in shooting some predators. We ran into this issue with a friend of mines chickens and a bobcat back home. It was really vague on whether or not we could shoot it. We did end up talking to Fish and Game and were given the go ahead to take it out. 

Maybe the new acronym should be shoot, shut up, "somewhere else" for disposal site.


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## CntryBoy777 (Nov 29, 2017)

Some of what was stated previously is why I have a tendency to feed the local buzzards. The majority around here that are arrested and charged have taken certainly animals to taxidermists to have them mounted.....such dumba** actions just leave me to shake my head.


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## TAH (Dec 10, 2017)

Hey, how are things going for you and Kimberly? 

Just read thru all this and wow, just wow! Dang cougar! 

BTW, love all the pics of her snuggled on the floor.


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 10, 2017)

I was just thinking about Kimber! How is she doing @dejavoodoo114 ?


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## klcardella (Dec 20, 2017)

Wow, that cat is really bold!  Did you ever find your other dogs?  What a terrible thing to go through! 

The best advice I got when I started with sheep was not to underestimate the number of dogs you need depending on the predators in your area.  

We also have bear, mountain lions, coyotes, bobcats, and recently wolves have shown up.  My vet recently lost more than 10 lambs, and 3 adult ewes from a wolf, which she saw.  She now brings all her sheep into the barn at night since she only has one dog.

Our neighbor up the road lost 15 sheep in a span of 2 weeks from a mountain lion this summer.  He has 2 young Pyrs, but one is a female that had a new litter at the time,  so essentially the male was on his own.  He managed to save some by bringing them up near the house, but they found several hanging from trees, and some so badly injured they had to be put down.  Luckily the dog was not hurt, and they are currently training some new dogs.  This cat came around in the middle of the day, and also showed no fear.

We have 70 acres fenced with lots of hills, and some of the fence comes up to wooded areas.  We keep sheep in several different pastures, and currently have 8 LGD's - all Maremmas and Akbash.  This combination has worked well for us. 

I keep a minimum of 3 dogs (no younger than 12-18 months) in areas farther from the house, or in pastures with no good line of sight and/or bordering woods.  I can keep a single dog up near the barn, which is where I keep the pups in training, but otherwise there are 2-3 dogs in any pasture.  I think the overall presence of that many dogs also helps, and we have been very fortunate as to not lose any sheep to predators in the nearly six years we have had them (knock on wood).

I was fortunate to find a very good adult rescue LGD when we first started in 2012, and added a pup at the same time, so by the end of our first year, we had two reliable guardians with only 2 pastures near the house, and less than 20 sheep.  As the flock grew, and we added pastures, we got more dogs, and were able to add pups, since we had the older dogs to help train them.  I prefer to train pups, since we also have barn cats and free-roaming chickens, and I have had good luck doing that.

My neighbors are all cattle people, and thought we were a little nuts having so many dogs, but after having newborn calves just disappear over the past several years, one of my neighbors now brings his cows to my place when they are ready to calve, and the dogs also watch over them (in return for hay in the winter, and help mending fences, multiple breed grazing, etc.)  It's a win-win for both of us.

What we do might not work for everyone, but it has worked very well for us, and the dogs are worth their weight in gold.  I will never keep less than 8 dogs, and we get them all fixed.  I don't want a dog out of commission while raising a litter, and I don't want dogs attracting coyotes or wandering because they are intact.   It's usually much less expensive to purchase a good pup than raise a litter.

As for the expense, even with good kibble (plus meat scraps and ground lamb), shots, heartworm meds, and flea/tick meds, all 8 dogs cost me less than the price of one lamb per month (not counting vet expenses for injuries).  Plus, the peace of mind is worth it.  

I hope Kimber continues to improve, and that your other dogs returned unharmed.


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## Bruce (Dec 23, 2017)

Just saw this and followed through to the end. No updates from @dejavoodoo114 for nearly a month. Sure hope things are just busy and the dogs are doing OK.


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## CntryBoy777 (Jan 20, 2018)

@dejavoodoo114 haven't heard anything from ya in quite awhile....sure hope things have improved for ya and hope Kimber has come along in healing and recovery. I just wanted to let ya know that your not forgotten and many of us stand with ya....not against ya......


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## Latestarter (Jan 20, 2018)

Indeed... been almost 2 months... wow how time flies by... Hope you and yours are doing well!


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## mystang89 (Jan 22, 2018)

Thanks for telling this story. I hope kimber is doing better now!


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## Latestarter (Mar 1, 2018)

Beginning of March and still nothing from @dejavoodoo114 Hope things are going OK for you out East there...


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## Bruce (Mar 1, 2018)

Yeah sure would like to know.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 4, 2018)

Just found this thread after posting mine about having to get a 3rd LGD due to excess coyotes on our 5 acres!

Sounds like Smith who she thought was not a good guardian stepped to the plate when Kimber was out of action and 2 other LGDs also not able to work.  He has been missing for so long that he probably tried to chase off the cougar and fell victim to it too.  Since he was older he may not have been able to get away before getting killed.

Deja needs another grown working LGD now, have puppies later for fun, but buy a trained older dog NOW.  I hope things have not gotten worse for her since she has not been on line in a while.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 4, 2018)

BTW  cougars are making a big comeback everywhere since they are protected in so many states.  They are NOT afraid of humans anymore either.


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## Donna R. Raybon (Jun 9, 2018)

Best wishes for Kimber's full tecovery.  It is hard to dog up enough to fight off cougar/bear.  Don't beat yourself up.


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## Donna R. Raybon (Jun 9, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> BTW  cougars are making a big comeback everywhere since they are protected in so many states.  They are NOT afraid of humans anymore either.




We have been warned cougar are heading south down the Appalachian Mountains and will be here in about ten years.  Already have bears wandering through.  Since no one hunts them they are not scared of people.  I do enjoy wildlife, just not so much when me and mine are on the menu.


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## Latestarter (Jun 9, 2018)

Ummmm... Despite what the "official" proclamations state, you almost assuredly already have cougars within 25-40 miles of you. There have been reports and sightings right on the outskirts of Knoxville.  http://www.wvlt.tv/content/news/TWRA-confirms-Cougars-in-Tennessee--413910373.html   As always, the govt agencies are loath to "admit" the truth until it's smacking them up side the head... like an attack or road kill. You basically need a picture of one standing in front of a permanent landmark of some sort for them to "verify" it as legit.

They "grudgingly" have verified sightings in middle and western TN in recent years (when they basically were given no choice). Of course they are doing their best to stand by their statements but as stealthy as cougars are, you can bet there are 3 times as many as are sighted. They have plenty of food living near people with their dogs and cats as well as the coyotes and deer who are no longer "huntable" because of human population density and the demonization of guns and hunting in general.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 9, 2018)

Sightings are hard to get - some years ago, a family was camping and hiking in the California mountains where it was "safe" to hike - supposedly no cougars any where in the area.  The mom had her child stand next to the trail signpost for a photo.  After the family was home from their trip and got the developed photos back the saw a mountain lion in the brush behind the child just watching.  They hadn't noticed it at the time because it blended so well into the brush.  They only noticed it in the photo afterwards!  There are more and more attacks lately as they lose their fear of humans.  I am not for extermination, but the Wildlife people really are not honest about how widespread they have become.  And of course the animal rights people never want to admit that wild animals are dangerous to livestock and people.  In fact, in the southeast states bordering Mexico there have been sightings jaguars spreading up from Mexico.  There was an actual report of one killed there in my farm paper years ago. 

Anywhere there is food available and no hunting of them, large predators will spread.  That is natural law in the wild.  The only thing we can do is protect our livestock and ourselves with our LGDs, and guns if it comes to that.  Better make sure if you kill a cougar, bear, or wolf that you have the correct nuisance permit.  The permit can be hard to obtain so if you have to shoot a predator make sure that you have the predation evidence at hand.  _ Always_ notify the county agent and local wildlife people (proper authorities) of a predator attack.  Even if they refuse to believe you, it will be noted in the records.


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## Latestarter (Jun 9, 2018)

The way the Govt looks out for us "law abiding citizens" (throw us in jail or fine us or both), many have determined a better approach to be "SSS"... just sayin' 

Here in TX we have the right to protect our livestock... period. Unless it's predation from a raptor (or invasive species like the Mexican black vultures that are causing so much damage) as they are all federally protected.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 9, 2018)

SSS is my favorite too, but someone else pointed out that in a lot of places many of the large predators are tagged now with tracking devices.   I think the repatriated wolf packs are all tagged, and many cougars too in certain states.  It depends n your state and whether or not the species is seen as protected or endangered.  California still considers the cougar endangered and protected although it has repopulated into cities now.  As long as they don't come after me and mine, they are welcome.  Otherwise . . . .  I support the 2nd amendment!


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## Mike CHS (Jun 10, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> Here in TX we have the right to protect our livestock... period. Unless it's predation from a raptor (or invasive species like the Mexican black vultures that are causing so much damage) as they are all federally protected.



You folks may have a law like we do here.  Farm Bureau manages the Black Vulture kill permits for the state (I don't know the details of how it works with the Feds) that allows you to shoot up to 4 of the vultures.  One was enough for us as we hung it from a branch in the tree they were bedding down in and they all moved to somewhere else.


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## greybeard (Jun 10, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> The way the Govt looks out for us "law abiding citizens" (throw us in jail or fine us or both), many have determined a better approach to be "SSS"... just sayin'
> 
> Here in TX we have the right to protect our livestock... period. Unless it's predation from a raptor (or invasive species like the Mexican black vultures that are causing so much damage) as they are all federally protected.


You dang ol trigger happy cowboys.....

Texas:
_Non-game animals include (but are not limited to) the following: armadillos, bobcats coyotes, flying squirrels, frogs, ground squirrels, mountain lions, porcupines, prairie dogs, rabbits, and turtles. *There is no closed season on these animals* and a valid hunting license is required. They may be hunted at any time by any lawful means on private property. Public hunting lands may have restrictions._


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## Donna R. Raybon (Jun 10, 2018)

Up until a few years ago buying a cougar kitten and raising it in TN required next to no permiting, so escaped/released were a realty.  Back in 1990 I nearly hit one that jumped across interstate in McMinn county, TN.  Without human support these 'pets'  did not last long enough to find one another or reproduce.  The ones moving in now are true wild.  Deer population ensures they have pleanty to eat.  Another problem has been wolf/dog hybrids... a few years ago one took down 11 cows over the course of a few weeks.  owner was letting it out at night.


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## greybeard (Jun 10, 2018)

Donna R. Raybon said:


> Up until a few years ago buying a cougar kitten and raising it in TN required next to no permiting, so escaped/released were a realty.  Back in 1990 I nearly hit one that jumped across interstate in McMinn county, TN.  Without human support these 'pets'  did not last long enough to find one another or reproduce.  The ones moving in now are true wild.  Deer population ensures they have pleanty to eat.  Another problem has been wolf/dog hybrids... a few years ago one took down 11 cows over the course of a few weeks.  owner was letting it out at night.



When I was young, you could buy just about anything at our local pet store. Ocelots, parrots of every kind, juvenile cougars, jaguars from Mexico & S. America,  any snake, amphib or other reptile imaginable...all without any kind of permit. That of course has mostly all changed nowadays.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 10, 2018)

It is a good thing you can't buy wild animals for "pets' any more since most of the buyers are mostly in it for the thrill of having an exotic pet.  They do not learn about the animal, its diet, diseases, or care, and do not have the proper cage/fencing for the animal.  I had a woman call me years ago wanting goat meat for her wolf because he was sick.  She was feeding him a vegetarian diet zof brown rice and yogurt and didn't want to feed him meat since she felt meat was a carcinogenic!  Her dream was to buy a place in the country where she could let him run wild and free!    I told her he would be shot and she was horrified.  It never occurred to her that  wolf running through ranch or farm country would be taken out by those who earned their living raising livestock!!!  LOL


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## Bruce (Jun 10, 2018)

Vegetarian wolf That is about as brilliant as a vegetarian chicken.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 10, 2018)

After I convinced her that he would die unless she fed him meat and also organ meat she wanted to:

1.  Boil the meat for an hour to make sure it was "safe"
and when I told her she would boil all the enymes and nutrients out of it she wanted to
2.  Soak it in food grade alcohol for an hour to make it "safe"!   

I had to convince her that the wolf would starve on the diet she was feeding him before he would die of cancer to get her to change her mind.  I gave her some organ meat from a steer and some lambs we had butchered and sent her away with the goat milk.  She called back a week later to tell me that his hair was starting to grow back.  I told her that she needed to go to a butcher and get organ meat and put him on a high quality all meat dog food. 

I also told her to go talk to the very good wild animal rescue we have here and when I asked if she had called them for help she told me indignantly that when she told the owner about how she was caring for her wolf, the owner had said she shouldn't be allowed to own the wolf.  Apparently she had bought it privately black market because she "loved wolves and had always wanted one"!  I told her to buy Farley Mowat's book "Cry Wolf" which has some good info on wolves.

People like that make me worry about the human gene pool.


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## Baymule (Jun 10, 2018)

You just can’t fix stupid.


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## Bruce (Jun 10, 2018)

You beat me to it (again) Bay.



Ridgetop said:


> People like that make me worry about the human gene pool.


You are just now starting to worry?


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## Skiesblue (Jun 12, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> SSS is my favorite too, but someone else pointed out that in a lot of places many of the large predators are tagged now with tracking devices.   I think the repatriated wolf packs are all tagged, and many cougars too in certain states.  It depends n your state and whether or not the species is seen as protected or endangered.  California still considers the cougar endangered and protected although it has repopulated into cities now.  As long as they don't come after me and mine, they are welcome.  Otherwise . . . .  I support the 2nd amendment!


He was cleaning his gun and it discharged...


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## Skiesblue (Jun 12, 2018)

We have transient cougars spring and fall. I had losses a couple of years ago after I lost my Anatolian (age). I didn’t see the cat but my neighbor did as it was inconveniently up a tree about 200 ft from his front door. We also have more deer around than ever.


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## mystang89 (Jun 12, 2018)

Baymule said:


> You just can’t fix stupid.


WHAT!? You can too.  You breed them out. At least that's what I tell people who ask me why I have 8 children and if I'm going to have more.


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## Wehner Homestead (Jun 12, 2018)




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## Ridgetop (Jun 13, 2018)

BTW did you hear about the case of the sheep rancher in Oregon who was sued by her neighbor because her LGDs barked too much?  The judge ordered her to have them debarked and pay $238,000 damages to the plaintiff!  She told the judge that the last time they debarked their dogs they lost 6 lambs in a week and that the dogs were necessary to her sheep operation. The article didn't say how much property she was on, or how many dogs she had.  She had Tibetan and Spanish Mastiffs.  How can they do their job if they can't bark?!  I don't like to listen to a constantly yapping dog either, but in the case of LGDs, mine don't bark constantly - only when there are predators around.  Otherwise, silence . . . .


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## Ridgetop (Jun 13, 2018)

mystang89:  Is that part of your program for improving the breed?  I had 4 and my cowboy uncle's nickname for me was "the broodmare".  I told him we were going to keep going till I got it right.  Sadly, 5 misses meant only 4 live kids.  God was good to us, our kids are great!  We had more fun raising them with their 4-H livestock experiences than anything we've ever done!


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## Donna R. Raybon (Jun 15, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> BTW did you hear about the case of the sheep rancher in Oregon who was sued by her neighbor because her LGDs barked too much?  The judge ordered her to have them debarked and pay $238,000 damages to the plaintiff!  She told the judge that the last time they debarked their dogs they lost 6 lambs in a week and that the dogs were necessary to her sheep operation. The article didn't say how much property she was on, or how many dogs she had.  She had Tibetan and Spanish Mastiffs.  How can they do their job if they can't bark?!  I don't like to listen to a constantly yapping dog either, but in the case of LGDs, mine don't bark constantly - only when there are predators around.  Otherwise, silence . . . .




I have ear plugs so I can sleep.  DH snores, roosters crow through out the night, George barks (LGD), neighbors cows bellow, etc.....


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## Skiesblue (Jun 15, 2018)

Ditto plus the occasional Bigfoot enthusiasts who broadcast whooping ape calls. Drives my LGDs crazy.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 15, 2018)

The sound of my LGDs warning off predators (animal or human) is just a lullaby to me.


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## goats&moregoats (Jun 15, 2018)

Just got done reading this thread and still no news. Wondering????


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## Latestarter (Jun 15, 2018)

Yeah... she hasn't been back in a long time.   Hope all is well with her.


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## Baymule (Jun 15, 2018)

Donna R. Raybon said:


> I have ear plugs so I can sleep.  DH snores, roosters crow through out the night, George barks (LGD), neighbors cows bellow, etc.....


I just trained my brain to identify sounds and keep sleeping. If it is important, wake me up. LOL


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## Skiesblue (Jun 16, 2018)

^ Do that with middlin success I’m naturally a night owl and have spent the last decade on the graveyard shift w variables. I hope to get better with the ignore. LGDs dispatched a raccoon overnight everyone good with vaccinations and no visible wounds-didn’t hear a thing.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 17, 2018)

Rika, Anatolian bitch has taken to sleeping inside the round pen corral where we are currently keeping sheep at night.  She can squeeze under the bottom bar but Bubba is too big.  He has to content himself with sleeping on the outside of the pen.  Pen is on top of ridgeline so they have good view over gully.  I am not sure when she goes in there since she is working at night around the perimeter, but around 5am she is resting in pen with sheep.


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## Baymule (Jun 17, 2018)

We have one stretch of fence that runs from the back yard up to the road. If it is open all the way, Paris, our female GP will lay up by the road (inside our fence). When we drive in, she trots back to the back yard. I guess she figures we're home, she's off duty. LOL


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## Ridgetop (Jun 17, 2018)

It is really wild that they know when they are on or off duty.  Rika knows that after we bring the sheep into the barn or the pen and feed them that they are safe, so she will come in the house for a couple hours if we invite her in.  If she is not happy about something in the field she will not even come to the back door.  She knows when the predators are around.  We have had times when she would not come to the porch to be fed because she was on guard even though the sheep were locked in the barn!  DH has to take her dinner out to the pasture.  Bubba never misses a meal, but he is just turned 2 years old so I expect when he is older he may act the same.  He is more vocal.  Rika has a serious side to her nature, so maybe it is just the difference in the dogs' personalities.

I always depended on my dogs to alert me to danger - these LGDs are just amazing though.  I never worry about prowlers, and where I used not to like strange cars driving up our private dead end road, now I hear our 2 barking and know that even if these guys are checking out houses to rob, they will give us a miss.  Getting more excited about adding our puppy in September!


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