# I may be doing this all wrong...



## Wandercreek (May 11, 2017)

I'm a bit embarrassed to admit it, but I know nothing about feeding goats. 

I have 3 Boers, all retired show goats. Ages 2 years (wether), 4 years (wether), and 4 years (doe? nanny?--I don't know the correct term). Their sole purpose is to be farm ornaments and sporadic fence line trimmers.

We have 50 acres in the Texas Hill Country (just west of weird ) situated in a valley bottom. The goats 'live' in our barn and have free access to about a 2 acre paddock at the moment. The barn is situated creekside and the paddock is always green with native weeds, grasses, and flowers except in the cold months when winter rye takes over. The paddock is adjacent to a 20 acre pasture/field full of native grasses. We had the pasture baled this year, but the goats show no interest in the bales. 

I am currently feeding a standard goat feed that I can't recall the name of at the moment. I get it from the local feed store. It's not a national brand. We are switching feeds in about 10 days however. The feed we are moving to is an organic soy-free formulation from Coyote Creek Farm. I'll include the analysis below. Each morning I fill a 3 qt scoop with feed and divide it amongst the 3 goats. They also each get the rough equivalent of a full 3 qt scoop of loose timothy. And, of course, they are free to browse the paddock all day. They have free access to a goat mineral bucket as well.

The goats are nowhere close to thin, yet they act as if they are starving every time they see me. By the way they look, I am concerned I am over feeding, but by the way they act, I wonder if I am under feeding.

The Coyote Creek feed we are moving to says its for lactating and developing goats, neither of which apply here. The feeding recommendation is 2lbs per 100lbs of body weight plus 2-4lbs of good quality hay per 100lbs of body weight. This seems like a lot of feed to me. On the other hand, I just read through a thread here where everyone described their feeding program and I noticed many people commenting that they feed 1 cup a day plus browse or hay/alfalfa. That seems like so little! Especially considering that many fed that ration are breeders and/or lactating does. On the other hand, I haven't weighed out their feed, so maybe 1 qt is close to the 2 lb/100lb recommendation? I don't know.

I'm terribly confused.

I would very much like to have the goats rely mainly on browse and treat the feed as a supplement, but as I said, they show no interest in the pasture grasses we had baled and only mediocre interest in the greenery in their paddock.  They will however, eat their weight in dry Sycamore leaves.

Is this a case where I need to reduce feed down to closer to a cup a day as so many of you do and just show some tough love here? Force them to rely more on browse? Or, should I follow the recommended feeding amounts listed on the feed bag? The goats all seem to be in good condition, but that's relative to my untrained eye. 

Chosing a different feed isn't an option. We will be getting this feed in bulk from the mill along with our chicken feed. It just isn't cost effective to continue buying bagged feed with mill prices available to us. We are also pursuing organic certification for the farm, so that is a deciding factor for this feed as well. (The soy-free part is just our preference.)

So, if anyone out there can help shed some light on how I should be feeding these beasties, I would be very appreciative. I hope I've included all pertinent information. 

--I was unable to insert a picture, so I've copy/pasted the feed info below--

*ORGANIC SOY-FREE GOAT*
For Lactating and Developing Goats


USDA Certified Organic
Non-GMO Project Verified
Delicious – your goats will thank you!
Non-medicated and no artificial preservatives

Guaranteed Analysis

Crude Protein (min): 14.5%
Crude Fat (min): 5%
Crude Fiber (min): 5.5%
Calcium (min): 0.8%
Calcium (max): 0,85%
Phosphorus (min): 0.8%
Salt(min): 0.6%
Salt (max): 0.7%
Copper (min): 20 ppm
Copper (max): 25 ppm
Selenium (min): 26 ppm
Zinc (min): 150 ppm
Vitamin A (min): 15,000 iu/lb
*
Ingredients:* Organic Corn, Organic Sesame Meal, Organic Alfalfa, Organic Wheat, MonoCalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Organic Dehydrated Kelp Meal, Salt, Organic Vegetable Oil, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Folic Acid, Biotin, Zinc Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite.

*Feeding Directions:* Our soy-free goat ration is a complete and balanced feed ration. Feed 2 pounds of ration per 100lb of body weight and 2 to 4 pounds of good quality hay per 100lb of body weight. Always provide plenty of fresh water. Store in a cool and dry place.


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## Latestarter (May 11, 2017)

I'm going to tag a few folks here with much more experience than I have. One thing to keep in mind is that goats are primarily browsers, not grazers. If you wanted grazers, sheep would have been a better animal choice. That being said, some (most - given no other choice) goats will graze and some sheep will browse. There should always be hay available to the goats free choice as their rumen needs long plant matter and green plant matter is mostly water... the hay, being dry is mostly plant matter. Also, watch the calcium to phosphorus ratio with those wethers as it can cause urinary calculi... It really should be a min of 2:1 http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/SP/MG/Documents/SLIDES/Urinary calculi.pdf

@Goat Whisperer @Southern by choice @babsbag @Green Acres Farm @OneFineAcre @ragdollcatlady @animalmom anyone else...


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## babsbag (May 11, 2017)

The first thing I noticed is the calcium to phosphorus ratio is not good. It needs to be 2:1 and 4:1 would be even better. If you are going to use that feed then you need to add ammonium chloride to the feed.  You aren't feeding goats in milk so you should be ok with the protein. 16% would be the minimum for a lactating goat. 

I don't feed my bucks any grain, they get entirely alfalfa and my  does only get grain when they are being milked. You may not need to supplement them at all if they have browse and good hay and make sure they have loose minerals. If they look fat don't supplement them and see how it goes. 

Goats are always hungry


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## ragdollcatlady (May 11, 2017)

The one cup a day is most likely for nigerians or as a snack for larger dairy goats. Boers require more input to keep in better condition and many of us are essentially (or completely) 'dry lot' feeding as we are backyard operations, with a few animals for pleasure. Goats are designed to eat things like branches, leaves, brambles and roses, and all kinds of vegetation. They may do well primarily on pasture especially if it has a variety of weeds for them to choose, but they aren't actual grazers like sheep.

My boers look the best when fed some grain along with their hay. You can use your favorite scoop, measure out the amount you normally like to feed and actually weigh it on a kitchen scale to help figure out how much you are currently feeding so you can better figure out how to adjust the diet based on what you are wanting.

You can use a mineral like Sweetlix meat maker, that has a better cahos ratio to help balance the food listed above.


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## ragdollcatlady (May 11, 2017)

Sorry, that is supposed to be calcium to phosphorus ratio.... smileys are hijacking my post!


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## Wandercreek (May 11, 2017)

Wow, great information. Thanks! And please, forgive my ignorance...I don't know any goat people at all to ask these things.

So, am I understanding this correctly... I can switch to alfalfa and forego the feed entirely?  I read somewhere recently that alfalfa wasn't as good for goats as timothy. Is there any truth to that?

I have a mineral bucket out for them. I got it from TSC. It says 'goat mineral' on the label, so I assumed this was needed. I'm not sure what loose minerals are but I can surely hunt some down if the bucket isn't correct.

That 20-acre field is fenced and has all kinds of brush in the fence line. I can open that up for them and let them go at it.  They seem to really like the agarita and even browse the juniper some, among other things. I think there is sufficient diversity here to keep 3 goats fed. I just wasn't sure that would be ...balanced enough?  

So, I guess my question is whether I should open field up for them to browse and give them alfalfa in the mornings or evenings (or free choice?) is okay? 
Or, I'm fine with buying feed and ammonium chloride if that sounds like a better option for them.


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## Alaskan (May 11, 2017)

As for fat...or not fat....

I would suggest searching on you tube for videos that show "goat body condition score".

Most pet goats are tubs of lard.  So it is best to learn what you want to aim for.

Boars are meat goats, so will have more muscle on them than dairy goats...however, I really like the following video, which shows dairy goats.  It is a bit slow and boring at times, but very informative and thorough.  After watching it, search for other ones that show meat goats. "Goat body condition score" are your key words.

I find feeling along the spine the best and fastest way to check their weight.






As for minerals et all..... one nice thing about the hill country is that dry rangeland produces great quality forage.  Low rainfall results in better nutrition in the grass, since the nutrition isn't washed out.

Goats will love any brush that you have, but new growth is always preferred.


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## Wandercreek (May 11, 2017)

Thanks Alaskan!

Using your keywords, I found a similar video showing meat goats. My guess is that my goats are probably too fat, but I'll check them according to the information in the videos tomorrow.

If they need to trim down some, is there any harm in a radical reduction in daily ration? Or would it need to be a gradual reduction? 

I feel pretty confident that there is ample variety of browse here to keep them interested and full, I just need to be sure that the nutrition is there too. Would I need to supplement for the  calciumhosphorus ratio if the bulk of their diet is brushy browse? And, if I discontinue offering bagged feed, would I then want to keep alfalfa (or hay of some sort) always available?

ETA: It seems the smileys are hijacking my posts as well...


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## Wandercreek (May 11, 2017)

Rereading the recommendations here this morning and have a few questions...



Latestarter said:


> There should always be hay available to the goats free choice as their rumen needs long plant matter and green plant matter is mostly water... the hay, being dry is mostly plant matter.



Is there a particular type of hay to use? I can have large round bales of standard horse/cow hay (I'm sorry, I don't know what variety it is here locally), or I can buy small square bales of alfalfa if that's a better option for free choice feeding.



babsbag said:


> I don't feed my bucks any grain, they get entirely alfalfa and my does only get grain when they are being milked. You may not need to supplement them at all if they have browse and good hay and make sure they have loose minerals. If they look fat don't supplement them and see how it goes.



When you guys say 'grain', are you referring to the pelleted 'goat food'  rations? 



ragdollcatlady said:


> Boers require more input to keep in better condition and many of us are essentially (or completely) 'dry lot' feeding as we are backyard operations, with a few animals for pleasure.



I don't understand what 'dry-lot' feeding means.

If I am understanding the advice here, the 'goat food' is potentially doing more harm than good due to the inappropriate calcium/phosphorus ratio. If I continue feeding this, I need to add ammonium chloride to the daily rations to help combat possible UC. They will also need hay or alfalfa in addition to this feed. (Either rationed or free choice, I am not clear on yet). They also need loose mineral as opposed to the mineral bucket they have now.

or

I can turn them out into the big pasture that has (over a mile of) brushy fencelines to browse, quit the goat food entirely, and either supply free choice hay or alfalfa. They would still need loose minerals as opposed to the mineral buck they have now.

My preference would be the second option. Unless I'm missing something, it seems the easiest and more natural diet for goats. What do you think?


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## ragdollcatlady (May 11, 2017)

In your shoes, I would offer them the most amount of free ranging forage I could. That will give them the freedom to choose their diet. On top of that, I would likely offer a small amount of hay in the morning. Any kind is fine, alfalfa if they need the conditioning, any kind if they don't, just to be sure they have long dry fiber to buffer any plants that might be too lush or potentially toxic. Then I would offer just a bit (a measuring cup or two) of grain, any kind of goat ration/pellet/chow to keep them coming up to me so I can check them every day and to provide some of the minerals/vitamins/ etc that aren't in the free range diet. 

I may leave the bucket if it is a protein tub, and offer the Sweetlix Meat Maker loose mineral (or another with similar ratios) free choice f possible. 

Dry lot just means we don't necessarily have any forage in the pens and are literally bringing everything in to the pen that our goats need.


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## Wandercreek (May 11, 2017)

@ragdollcatlady Thanks for the clarification. This helps me tremendously. 

Good point about offering a bit of grain daily to keep them coming back. I had a bit of worry that I might not see them for days if I turn them out into the big pasture.

I'm going to call up the feed store and have them deliver Sweetlix and a small bale of each type that they have so that I can see what the goats prefer. I'll check the current bucket to see if it's a protein tub and start cutting back a little on the grain. 

Thank you all so very much for your patience and advice.


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## babsbag (May 11, 2017)

@ragdollcatlady answered those questions pretty well and I agree with her. The grain is especially nice when you need to catch them...just rattle that bucket. It doesn't work for mine and I wish that it did. 

My goats love those protein buckets. To be honest with you, I haven't read the ingredients and I just give it as a treat now and then. Mine have the loose minerals all of the time. They make a medicated mineral and a non-medicated mineral. I would go with non-medicated. The medicine is for cocci which usually isn't a problem with adult goats. The medication can be dangerous for dogs if you have any of those that like to sample goat feed. 

There are many kinds of hay out there and much of the time what is fed is what is available. I can get alfalfa year round, many people can't. Alfalfa hay is the hay of choice for goats in milk because it is the highest in calcium and protein but many diary animals eat other hay and are supplemented with a higher protein pellet or grain to compensate. Alfalfa is usually the most expensive too. I don't leave hay out free choice. Mine get a serving in the morning and a serving at night. I don't think they make a big enough feeder to leave hay free choice for 40 goats.


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## Wandercreek (May 11, 2017)

@babsbag Holy Moly! 40 goats. I can't even imagine dealing with that number!

As far as protein buckets and minerals go, I have to be careful to make sure they won't be at odds with organic standards for certification. That aspect of the whole thing kinda slipped my mind through the last few posts. I wonder if it's possible to get these things in an organic format?


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## Alaskan (May 11, 2017)

I agree  with ragdol.

Give them free access to standard hay if they are tubby, alfalfa if they look thin.

Give then daily access to the brushy pasture.

I am not sure what bucket minerals are...loose minerals are what is usually what is recommended since goats cant get enough minerals by licking a block.

And every night a scoop of goat pellets, or whatever treat  to make sure they come to the barn to locked up for the night.


Oh...and I _*would *_ change feed slowly. No sudden shocks to the system.


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## Wandercreek (May 11, 2017)

@Alaskan This is the bucket I have




 

 

The goats were very interested in it when I first put it out for them. I don't know if they still eat any of it. If so, it's very little as the level doesn't seem to be dropping much.

This is the pasture I can open up for them. The photo is from midway down the length of the pasture. There is about the same distance or more behind where I was standing. You can see the barn in the center of the photo in the distance.  We have about 30ish acres of untouched woodland to the left of this photo that I can let them into after some perimeter fence repairs.


 

And a more detailed look at the fenceline browse


 

I feel pretty confident that this will support 3 goats. It's about 1.5-2 miles worth of fence line surrounding this pasture.  These photos were taken today, but the fence line doesn't change much winter to spring that I can tell. I'm not certain about the summer months. We've only been here since December.

Anything glaringly wrong in these photos that I'm not seeing?


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## Alaskan (May 11, 2017)

That looks WONDERFUL!!! 

I do not see any noxious weeds.  

There is plenty of brush coming through the fence for the goats to choose from.  And there is a good selection of brush types.

Thanks for the photo of the mineral bucket.  Looks like good stuff.


That place will get dry as a bone, and all brown in the summer.  Don't worry though, the brush will still hold lots of nutrition for the goats.


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## Wandercreek (May 11, 2017)

Thank you @Alaskan. That makes me feel so much more confident.

It isn't apparent from the photos, but this pasture is the literal bottom of a valley. It gets drainage from every direction. The brush line to the right is the edge of a year round creek. The left brush line is the woodland border that is also hillside sloping to the pasture. I may be lucky enough to avoid total crispiness in the summer. We'll see. 

As for the mineral bucket, would I need to switch to loose minerals, or provide both loose and the bucket, or... just the bucket?


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## Latestarter (May 11, 2017)

OMG your goats will be in heaven if you let them loose on all that woody stuff! You won't need to grain them for ages! Make sure you train them to come running to you for treats before you let them loose though. I guarantee you do NOT want to be chasing them all over that pasture trying to corral them back to the barn. With all that they have available to them there, I wouldn't "waste" money on expensive hay... If you have room in the barn to keep a round bale dry and off the ground, then get a round bale and just break off what you need every day or every other day so they have a little available to them. They'll waste a lot as they tend to pick through and only eat the choicest bits. You want to make sure you buy a bale that has been kept out of the elements though (down here in TX they cut, bale, then leave sitting out in the field in the weather as I'm sure you've noticed) as you do NOT want to have them eat moldy hay... it can kill them. Any time you add to, take away from, or change their diet, you want to do it gradually and over a bit of time, like a few days to a week or so.

Don't feel bad about asking questions! We have a very supportive group here who enjoy helping others succeed!


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## Latestarter (May 11, 2017)

Oh, and that bucket is NOT a mineral bucket, it's a protein bucket. You want to buy loose/granulated minerals designated for goats. Goats need more copper than most other typical barnyard animals. There are minerals that say "sheep & goats" or generic minerals... you don't want those as sheep in particular can't handle the amount of copper that goats need, so that mineral, though great for sheep, is lacking for goats. You don't want mineral blocks as goats can't get what they need by licking, so they'll try to bite it, which can damage their teeth. IMHO I don't think minerals factor into organic or not... they are just minerals that animals would normally get from their feed/forage, but can't because they are deficient in the soils/plants.


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## Alaskan (May 11, 2017)

Thanks Latestarter....you moderator you.  

And yep...good advice.


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## Wandercreek (May 11, 2017)

@Latestarter I can't tell you how much you've all helped me find peace of mind over this. I'm very happy to learn that we have an abundance of natural food for them and can simply supplement for fiber and minerals. No, that's wrong...I'm not simply happy, I'm overjoyed. This is exactly what I hope to provide for all my beasties. 

When I arrived here at BYH the other day, I had every intention of going back "home" when Nifty finishes up over there at BYC. You've all been so welcoming and helpful though, I think I just might stick around. My next project to tackle is starting up a beehive and I noticed a section for that earlier today. I've already started asking newbie questions over there too. 

I really appreciate everyone helping me with this. Y'all are so great.


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## MikeLM (May 11, 2017)

Goat mineral, since you mentioned Tractor Supply earlier, (or someone did), this is the Goat Mineral I get there : https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/manna-pro-goat-mineral-supplement-8-lb?cm_vc=-10005 it contains the ammonia chloride.


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## Wandercreek (May 11, 2017)

Thanks for the link @MikeLM 
I was just about to start googling 'Loose Goat Minerals'. Perfect!


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## MikeLM (May 11, 2017)

Wandercreek said:


> Thanks for the link @MikeLM
> I was just about to start googling 'Loose Goat Minerals'. Perfect!


You're welcome!


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