# goat housing Qs, also predator-protection Q



## patandchickens (Mar 22, 2010)

I have given DH *ample* notice that I am wanting to get several milk goats or sheep this year, and he has not had a tizzy, so I am regarding it as approved (yay!). What exactly I end up with will depend on what I can find locally that I can also arrange to rebreed in the fall, so I really have no idea yet what i'll end up with. Thus, I am also posting these type Qs in the sheep area of the forum, sorry 

So let's say I get 2-3 goats, for milking.

I think the easiest thing will be to house them in the barn; I can carve out some space, but it'll be coming out of my (ground-floor) hay storage area so I can't be too lavish.* Would 8x10 be adequate for indoor housing of 2-3 dairy goats, in an area with nasty winters?* I could subdivide for kidding, and would milk elsewhere in the barn.

*How cold-tolerant are goats* (esp. Nubians with their floppy ears) - the barn sometimes gets down to 0 F or lower, in midwinter, will that be a problem?
*
How much outdoor yard would 2-3 dairy goats want?* Would something like 15x20 be adequate?

*Can I use roadbase (a mix of dirt/sand/gravel/rocks) in the goatyard, to raise it well up above mud level?*

*Would 4' woven wire plus 1-2 electric strands provide adequate protection against loose dogs and coyotes?* How many of you have lost pet goats to predators in similar circumstances? We may get a pet dog someday but it would not be a LGD/"farm dog" type, so fencing is the only protection available and I don't want to be picking up goat bits some fine morning.

Thanks for any and all advice,

Pat


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## cmjust0 (Mar 22, 2010)

Assuming Nubians, since you mentioned them and it seems like they'd be sort of a "worst case scenario" for your situation....

An 8x10 stall would be fine for three does if all you're talking about is a place to bed down out of the cold and wind, but I doubt it would leave you room to subdivide for kidding.  

Our barn got down around 0 several times this winter, and we had pretty good stretches where the weather didn't get above 15 or so..  If they bed down out of the wind with a rumen full of good coarse hay (not fine hay...not "hot" hi-protein grain..._course hay_) they can keep themselves pretty toasty.  Even their ears.

In my opinion, a 15x20 outdoor run would be woefully inadequate for three goats of any kind.  Combine that with an 8x10 stall and you're talking about three goats living in 380sqft, 24/7/365...it's just not enough.

As for using gravel/roadbase/etc to keep them out of the mud...they make their own mud.  If you planned on keeping goats that tightly confined, the only way to get it done would be concrete..  Reason being....you can hose concrete down.

As for fencing...  A buddy of mine lost one of his goats to his own dog when it stuck its head through woven wire fence and got stuck.  The dog ate its face off.  When he found it, the goat was still alive but had a hole where its face should be.  He had to shoot it.  

My feeling is that fences are never enough.  Not by themselves, anyway.  Dogs climb over, dig under, find gaps, etc..  

Just my opinion, though.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 22, 2010)

I purchased 2 Nubian doelings last September.  DH built a "goat house" about 7' x 9' with a door on it so we could close them up at night.  Ventilation slots along the sides up high under roof overhand.

The plan was:  to breed the two girls this fall.  I decided since they had no experience we would purchase a bred doe, due to kid this spring.

Bottom line:  original goat house is too small.  Besides I need:
a milking room since milking on the back porch is not fun, and a hay/feed room.  Also would be nice to have a stall I could close off from other goats.  

So, DH is out back working on a new goat barn, 20 x 10 for the enclosed area, plus 20 x 10 covered loafing area.

So the moral of my story is:  Build bigger than you think you'll need because:  Goats are very habit forming, rather like chickens.

You have been warned.

DonnaBelle


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## patandchickens (Mar 22, 2010)

OK, so larger indoor housing area (I could go 8x12, with additional area for kidding since by that time of the year I would have less stored hay and could expand into that part of the barn).

And, more outdoor area. What about a larger area, e.g. 100x50 or 100x100, but with only a portion of it (maybe 15x20) being raised with gravel/sand to provide nonmuddy area? The problem is that all our ground is really pretty low. Would goats stay out of problematically-muddy-for-them areas, if given a choice?

If fencing alone (with electric included) is never enough, I don't see how I could ever keep any kind of sheep or goats, as a LGD is just not an option... :/ (people around here supposedly do not have great luck with donkeys for coyoteproofing sheep)

Hmm,

Pat


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## Iceblink (Mar 22, 2010)

If you plan to have a 8x10 area, I would only get 2 goats, if they are standard size. If they are minis, like Nigerian Dwarfs, you could fit 3 in that area easily. A plus to the minis is they cycle year round, so you can alternate their breeding and have milk year round. 

I think it was you that posted that although one 'could' fit chickens into 4sq ft each, it's better all around to give them as much room as possible. I could fit a lot more animals into my smallish barn, but I've learned that they won't set foot into the snow, no matter how big their outdoor run is, so I better give them lots of indoor room in the winter. 

As far as the mud goes, if you use the deep bedding method, and don't use a board across the door, they will end up kicking a ton of bedding into the yard and keeping the mud down that way. 

I have had good luck with both 4' 4"x2"woven wire, when they are close to the house, and I shut them in at night, and 6' chain link for when they are out on pasture and sleeping outside at night. We don't have a huge amount of predators, but there have been stray dogs, and the occasional neighbor dog.  It is totally my personal opinion, but I think having my sheep and goats used to my dog has helped them. If a strange dog comes up to them, they don't run away, and they usually head-butt it. They act less like prey, and maybe don't rouse the predator instinct in dogs. Again, that is just my personal experience. 

Good luck with your endeavor, I dearly love my maanimals, they are so sweet and funny and surprising.


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## ()relics (Mar 23, 2010)

you forgot 1 protection option:


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## patandchickens (Mar 23, 2010)

Oh yes, I 100% believe in giving animals as much room as possible to be comfortable -- I am just trying to find out what that *is* for goats, while working under the constraint that I really don't have much room AVAILABLE in the barn, you know? 

And likewise I do not have much land right around the barn that is not underwater during floody times, and while I can buy *some* roadbase I can't buy an infinite amount, nor fencing either.

So I am trying to figure out what would be "comfortably enough", you know?

How about this:

Two regular-sized goats in a 8x10 area in barn (kidding and milking to be done outside of that), attached to an outdoor paddock either 15x40 or 30x30, with the half of it nearest the barn recieving about 20 tonnes of roadbase so it will never be squooshy mud. Outdoor paddock to be fenced in 5' chainlink until I run out (I forget how much I have) and 4-5' 2x4" wire for the remainder.

?

The goat area in the barn *does* have a nice big window, if that helps  (edited to add: and my plan would be to scythe them some goldenrod and thistles and such every day to chuck into the pen for them to snack on, and as further affordable fencing becomes available I would be happy to apply it to the horse fencing and let them out into a larger area during the day when I'm around, also I do have some Premier electronet that could be utilized)

()relics, the funniest thing is that when I was discussing this with my farrier last week, he SUGGESTED that if I get a couple goats or sheep I should get a donkey to protect them. I nearly fell over, I have never heard a *farrier* SUGGEST a client get a donkey  LOL. I am unconvinced we need another mouth to feed, however... :/

Thanks for the help, folks   I am just getting really really frustrated and worried about this, because it seems to me that keeping just a few goats _should_ be very doable, and the Storey dairy goat book by Jd Belanger certainly makes it sound doable (his space recc's for barn space would put 4-6 goats in an 8x10)... but whenever I ask questions about specifics I feel like I can't do it up to what people consider adequate conditions. Aaargh. (Sheep even worse, since I can't FIND info on keeping just a couple sheep as opposed to a big ol' flock.)

I *can* do this, right, even with a non-infinite barn and low land? Right? Maybe?

Pat


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## freemotion (Mar 23, 2010)

I have a big coyote problem here and my woven wire fence (2x4" openings) with electric on top was enough for several years.  Recently, a coyote dug under and took two hens in the middle of the afternoon, within a half-hour space of time between people walking right by that spot.  So now there is another electric wire low on the fence, so anyone who tries to dig under will get a major shock.

I'm glad that coyote took those hens before my does kid!  It might've been kids that were taken instead.

You do need more room.  Keep in mind that goats also head-butt each other, and the lowest on the pecking order can have it pretty rough if confined to a small space where she can't get away.  Or she could be kicked out into the rain, snow, and wind.  Just ask my Ginger.  We made some adjustments, and now she is fine.  I hung an old door from ropes suspended from the rafters at goat eye level, in the middle of the communal stall, and now if Mya can't see Ginger, she leaves her alone.

Remember that three does, bred for future milking, will quickly turn into 9+ goats!

I disagree about the bedding keeping the mud down.  In my experience, mud is created by the addition of organic material....goat poop, hay, bedding, etc, all breaking down and holding water.  We add it to our gardens for just this reason....it holds moisture.  Not desirable outside the barn door.  

I rake and scrape all that stuff as much as possible to reduce mud.  But it is inevitable.  I don't have many options here, so I ended up putting out some big plastic blocks (cavelletti "Bloks" I bought years ago when I was riding and training seriously) and a wooden platform made from scraps so the goats can get out of the mud in the spring.  They stand on those items a lot, just looking around and chewing their cuds, when it is very muddy.  Once things dry out a bit more, I will be able to scrape away all the winter poop and stuff and get down to the sand again.  After 8 years with this barn, I will be adding more sand this year, as I've scraped some of it away in the process.


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## freemotion (Mar 23, 2010)

I was writing my answer when you posted again....it is doable, I would do it in your position with what you have.  I think you will do just fine.  We all have to learn lessons that can only be learned once the goats are there to inspect your work and point out all the weaknesses in your plans.....


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## patandchickens (Mar 23, 2010)

Ooo, I just had an idea. I can make an 8x10 'permanent' goat pen in the barn, but I can also have some moveable panels so that as hay gets used up the goats can also have some of that area of the barn. Since by the time winter is the worst and animals are the most bored of being indoors, I have substantial hay-space cleared, maybe THAT would work well!

<lightbulb> ,

Pat


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## freemotion (Mar 23, 2010)

That would work!


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## patandchickens (Mar 23, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Remember that three does, bred for future milking, will quickly turn into 9+ goats!


Not for long   As you can see, I *totally* have no possibility of keeping any kids, so my expectation is that after a few months (which will be during nice-ish weather and when extra room is available in the barn b/c very little hay left) I will endeavor to sell the kids or find them homes, and anyone left homeless gets put in the freezer, sorry to offend anyone's delicate sensibilities. (This is the part I am MOST not looking forward to about the whole goat milk thing - I think kids are just the most wonderful things in the world, better even than human kids, and the thought of sending any to slaughter or processing them myself is not a happy one, but I am not vegetarian and that's the price of milk, sigh)



> I disagree about the bedding keeping the mud down.


I totally totally agree... IME with horses, working organic material into mud makes it a much *worse* mud swamp. (Straw can appear to help for a short while, but then it breaks down and you're back to mud swamp)

Free, in your experience, how bad are goats compared to horses, in terms of ripping the ground up with their feet and churning up mud and deepening mud?

Pat


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## Iceblink (Mar 23, 2010)

> I totally totally agree... IME with horses, working organic material into mud makes it a much *worse* mud swamp. (Straw can appear to help for a short while, but then it breaks down and you're back to mud swamp)


Ok, different strokes for different folks. I should have mentioned that my climate is probably pretty different than yours. Oh, and I'm sorry I didn't realize that your pen would be full time living quarters. My animals are out on pasture most of the time. That gives my barn yard lots of 'rest' time. 

As far as keeping just a couple sheep, it's super easy. I would definitely recommend it.  Here is a picture of my lambs in their sheep tractor last summer.


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## freemotion (Mar 23, 2010)

patandchickens said:
			
		

> Free, in your experience, how bad are goats compared to horses, in terms of ripping the ground up with their feet and churning up mud and deepening mud?
> 
> Pat


No comparison at all.  Goats are very easy on the land and pasture.  My only issue has been in the summer when it is really hot.....they like to paw the dirt before lying down, to get cooler, I think.  It is always next to a wall, so they have actually undermined one wall in my barn.  I finally wised up and filled in the holes and covered the area with a couple of rubber mats.  They found a new spot to dig, so I will be getting another rubber mat....until my whole barn is mat-covered, no doubt!

But there are absolutely no issues in the paddock or the pasture, as far as tearing it up like horses do.  I leave the gate open to my larger pasture year-round now.  I used to close it in the spring or in wet weather when I had the horse.


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## lupinfarm (Mar 23, 2010)

I have 2 Pygmy's in a 13x17ft building and they're moved to a 12x17ft "run" outside during the day at the monent until the ground is thawed enough to put in my drylot behind their shed. I also have approx. 1-2 acres of pasture for them out the front across the driveway that will be fenced into 3 different smaller fields. 

I can appreciate your concern about mud, and with our harsh winters it came seem kind of daunting thinking about housing, and fencing, and so on. Goats are fairly hardy animals though. Even on the coldest winter days my goats would at least come out of their little house once in a while and hang out outside. As with horses lots of hay makes a big difference. Give them hay to keep them warm and you shouldn't have to worry about the cold too much. I think I worry about my horses in the cold more than I worry about my goats  Both my goats developed enormous woolly mammoth type winter coats. They're so itchy right now, and need a brushing or shaving. lol. My horses on the other hand have made some lovely muddy areas by their gates, but aside from that the pastures seem to be fairly intact. Mylie has to be moved so hers can be seeded though. Luna makes mud pits with her tiny hooves, Mylie flattens it all with her huge hooves LOL. 

I don't think with 2-3 goats you're going to have many problems with an area as large as 15x20 or  30ft. If you can do something like 40ftx40ft you'd be better off IMO. Maybe instead of looking at Nubians you need to start looking at a smaller breed of dairy goat. Don't discount Nigerian Dwarfs, they have immense milking ability despite their size and you'll have an easier time accomodating them on your property with your conditions. I had both Cissy and Mione (granted they are Pygmy's, but around the same size) in a 6x6ft building and they were happy as clams in there over the winter. I wish they'd had a bigger pen over the winter but they didn't, and no one is losing sleep over it. They will have a bigger one in the summer though. At least you're not me, haha, I bought the goats and then worried about housing them AFTER. *Let me know if you're interested in exploring other dairy options, I do have the names of a few Nigerian Dwarf breeders in Ontario, one of which I am likely buying from next year.* A few of these breeders are actually closer to you than they are to me, and they are all fairly reasonably priced. You'll find soon enough that goats are darn expensive to buy here in Ontario lol, and you won't want to go to an auction. I just saw today a goat purchased from an auction at the vets office with a mucusy nose, maaaaing non-stop. 

You might also consider temporary fencing for the summer months, a moveable "goat tractor" type pen to move your does around. 

If you have no possibility of keeping any kids you may consider buying registered does and a registered buck and breeding registered animals so you have an easier time finding homes for your goat kids. And when you do. Call me LOL. I will take your goat kids hahaha..


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