Before you all jump down my throat

[Shayanna]

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We will be getting a 7-8 week old pup here in about a week or two. Now before you get all huffy about it, hear me out. I have posted this over on HT, but I keep getting the same close-minded answers that have nothing to do with my question. This puppy is a mutt. A St. Bernard, Collie, Rottweiler, and Lab mix. Its purpose will be to be somewhat of a lgd. I have heard all of the debates about whether you absolutely need a specific LGD breed and yada yada, but that is not what I am asking. So if you are just going to post about how I should be getting a Maremma or a Great Pyrenese, forget it. The purpose of this dog is not necessarily to take down predators, just to keep them distant. (The coyotes around here are chickens and stay way from dogs.) Also, with our 3 strand electric fence (that works great for our goats) might not work so well with kids if they felt so inclined. Now my mother has one of these pups from last years litters, and it has shown great potential without training. She had a goat tethered in the yard, and the dog was relaxed as usual, but every time the goat got off the chain or broke it, the dog would herd the goat back to the tree it was tied up to. I, personally, thought that showed great potential. I figure if I can teach this puppy that the goats are supposed to stay in the fence, that if any kids wander out, the dog will correct this action. My mothers dog has never shown any signs of aggression towards livestock, doesn't chase, and has never even mouthed a farm animal. I would also like this dog to not kill/hurt any of our free ranging chickens that might wander out to pasture.

I am unsure of how to introduce it to our goats and getting the training started. I keep seeing articles about penning it up with a doe or kids, but this doesn't seem possible with our set up. We have a pretty natural setting for our goats. All of the does and buck stay together. We expect them to stay together to have their kids. The ten acres we have fenced in is fenced with 3 strands of electric wire. At night, the 7 goats have a 10 by 10 shed that they all fit quite comfortably in and can go in and out of freely, but most nights they choose to sleep outside. Should the pup be chained during the day in the main area near the goats until it learns the boundaries? Crated in the shed at night? Is it safe to put the dog in a crate, as some of my goats have horns? I know I sound like a terrible newb, but I need some advice.

 

[Pearce Pastures]

Since you are not intending for it to be an LGD, I can tell you what we did with our mutt (ShepherdxSaluki). We introduced her to the goats by having one of us hold the goat and one be ready to handle her, allowing for very controlled interaction. We tried to impress on her that they are OURS and are important to us by scolding her whenever she approached them too quickly or even playfully.

That being said, she is not allowed in the goat enclosure ever because she does not have the right temperment or breeding to actually live with them like an LGD. She is very well trained, responds to over a dozen distinctly different commands but she still has that drive and playfully killed a few chickens prior to our getting goats so we already knew that she would not work that way. BUT we have our goats in a fence within a fence...they are on the inside fenced area and she patrols the outside and does act as a deterrant to our coyotes and barks when they get close so we can go put the goats inside or get our gun. She would not stand a chance against them though even though she is decent sized simply because of how coyotes function as a pack so we have done what we can to both contain her and the goats.

If you mean that you want her to sort of herd the goats back to where they are supposed to be if they do get out, I am not sure that will work and sorry if that offends but there are reasons for why people like the LGD. I love my mix breed and don't really want an LGD but don't expect her to be one.

I would be looking to put up some wire fencing in addition to the hotwire. Would she be okay chained up in the enclosure...she could get attacked by the goats and not be able to escape/or may actually hurt them too. Will a horned goat hurt the puppy in the crate...maybe, it is possible.

 

[Shayanna]

Thank you. I would like the dog to stay outside, near the goats. I was just thinking that if my mothers dog seemed to do so well knowing where the goats are supposed to be and keeping them there, maybe I could actually train a dog to do that same thing, and at the same time be a kind of deterrant to predators.

 

[BrownSheep]

Our saints actually work as LGDs on the side. I actually think since you're starting with a puppy it will be easier than what most people seem to say. We train ours to the sheep like we train the to the cats. If they misbehave they get spanked. When I got my younger saint. Actually would leave her in with the sheep, but I wouldn't suggest chaining her in there. Our sheep did a lot of puppy tumbling and had she been chained I think she would probably have gotten hurt. If you can I would place a dog run or something within the pasture for her.

The herding behavior you describe isnt really LDG behavior. Herding dogs aren't guard dogs. The instincts required for each behavior is contradictory to each other. Herding ,IMO, utilizes the prey drive to some extent. I'm not saying you couldn't have it herd because the genetics is there for it in the border collie.

If I was in your position I think I would focus on an out of field LGD. None of my dogs live in the field with our sheep. They guard outside the fences. in our situation this works best. I also wouldnt allow any dog younger than three in at lambing or kidding. At 2 they are really just big puppies that get excited with new things that werent there last night . The largest part of gaurding is just barking. They are going to bark and bark and bark.... Mainly at night.

The breed combo in your puppy makes me a little nervous ( mainly just the prey drive from the lab). Please, remember that just because this puppy's sibling could work as an LGD doesn't mean yours will inherit the same instincts. I hope it all works out to where you have a wonderful LGD

 

[bonbean01]

We do not have a LGD for our sheep and chickens...but we do have a high prey Crazy Maizey dog who is a mutt. We never have her in with the sheep or chickens, but when the sheep are out in the pasture she is chained in the shade outside their fence. Her bark is loud and she alerts us to any and all animals coming on or near our property...here our biggest problem is local dogs, but we do have coyotes howling at lambing time. So...she does her job alerting us to any intruders and we can hear her from the house. Works for us and is a big help.

Your puppy may become a good alert system for you.

 

[Shayanna]

Got our puppy yesterday. It is an 8 week old mutt. First thing it did when set down on our farm was try to figure out who its "friends" were. So we walked it out to the goats. He sat down just outside the "herd" and watched. Soon it became apparent that he was very taken with Fern, our Nubian doe that has never been bred but has very motherly instincts. He followed her around and she let him. He didn't act excitable, or like he wanted to play, but he stuck with them. I am proud. Even our buck accepted him right away! Our buck wasn't even that nice to the 6 month old whether we introduced. We built a goat-safe-pen inside the goat shed, where the puppy will go to eat, sleep, or just be away from the goats if they get too rough. Things are working out well so far. Maybe I will post pics later on.

 

[secuono]

The dog still needs to be out with those animals and learning how they act and the sounds they make. With you right there to slap it's bum if it does anything in the direction of not passive. The livestock needs to come first, then the dog. Just like if you had a Chihuahua and got a large breed dog. You teach the new bigger dog to obey and submit to the chihuahua, or one day, the big dog will just 'eat it'.

 

[Stubbornhillfarm]

Shayanna, best wishes for you and your new pup! Yes we all love pictures and hearing success stories of how others homesteads are doing. Sounds like you are off to a great start.

 

[Roscommon Acres]

It actually sounds like a decent mix for a good all around farm dog and that may be more what you need than an LGD, anyway. I am speaking from my experience with English Shepherds, not LGDs. (We just got a Great Pyrenees, but I don't know what I'm doing and mostly hoping that what I read on the internet translates to a good dog!)

A good farm dog recognizes who belongs where and who doesn't belong anywhere. When I tie a heifer in the windbreak, they raise a raucous if she gets off and wanders into the turnips. Same if they leave the pasture. They learn through routine. If you do something every day, they know that is the way it is done, and they'll join in and try to keep things the way you put them. Sometimes they learn wrong and you just have to keep a sense of humor and not give up on them.

When we first got our steer, he spent a couple weeks in the barn while we finished fencing (long story, but it was a 4H thing and we thought we were getting him in February and received a call in November that we had to come get him that day!) From that, the dogs decided that's where he belonged and they'd stand at the barn door and hold him there. We'd call them off and go inside, but if we let them out, they'd go find that steer and drive him back into the barn. It took two weeks of leading him out every morning (rather than just opening the door) before they finally realized he was supposed to be out during the day and in at night. Which of course meant they started chasing him out of the barn during the day!

They did well with poultry, but free ranging stresses one of our dogs. She wants them to belong somewhere and she just keeps trying to get them in the henhouse. She's eased up on that a lot as she's aged, but "wherever they want to go" is a hard concept for these kinds of dogs to grasp.

And they can be protective of the flock. Our Timmy breaks up fights between the chickens and sends the aggressor off before coming back to the "victim" and sniffs it over and gives it a good kiss before leaving it to roam. And they do not tolerate anything that doesn't belong. Even new livestock has to be introduced. (When one of our dogs went on a killing spree, I was baffled until I realized she was targeting the new chickens. It never occurred to me that she would know this chicken belonged here and this one didn't. A little introduction, and that was over.)

Mine do not abide coyotes. They patrol the property at night and turn from passive, playful goofballs to snarling demons if they sense them about. Nice thing is, though, unlike the LGDs, they don't really take off after them. They know our property line and they generally respect it. They only take off if all the dogs are out together (pack behavior is different from individual dogs' behaviors). Alone, they pace the property line growling and barking. If it sounds serious, I get the other dogs and go outside and they'll become a little more aggressive and move toward the coyotes, but I don't let them go too far. I let them go about 20 feet off property before calling them back.

We decided to get an LGD as well when our calf was attacked by something. I think a pack of coyotes, but I'm not sure. They stopped it and drove it off and she's fine, now, but they don't really patrol the other side of the windbreak where the pasture is. We wanted a dog that we could leave out there and not worry about at night.

 

[Lupa Duende]

I did the same kind of thing.


Two years ago I found some giant breed mutts covered in poo and flies in a lady's barn. I offered her money and took them home and the children and I bathed them until they stopped smelling so bad. we took them to our village vet who tested the bejeezus out of them and then we started in on puppy classes..., soon we had two fantastic family dogs. I developed a hankering for more than just the ordinary 2 cats 2 dogs thing and before i knew it was was offering a man far to much money for psycho goats. the dogs wanted to kill the goats and the goats wanted to run to the motorway to be smushed or eat my neighbours' flower.

i tethered them all. each goat and both dogs had ten foot tethers. i changed their little octogon of love every hour (mind you the goats who rather die than be touched by PyschoMum and the children were terrified. i brought everyone their own waterbucket but kept moving the tethers so the goats would forget and forage and my hounds would fall asleep (giant breeds snooze much of the day).

Withing a fortnight the dogs stopped caring about the goats and Beatrice was able to wander round free again. it took longer for my other dog, but both girls eventually would fall asleep next to the goats with the chickens and ducks walking over them.

i never asked for a LGD; I just wanted our critters to be kind to one another. now I have lost one of my dogs to horrific spinal torsion. her spine was all bunched up and ibuprofen couldn't keep her out of pain.

My other dog, Gypsum, is lonely and bored and i have started cruising Petfinder looking for another big fluffy dog.

they didn't herd the animals; they didn't defend them but life was good. my girls had issues with people (except brawny construction chaps) but not animals.

if anyone knows of any big wooly hounds in the southwest of Quebec..., ok anywhere really I would love to adopt another one. it is hard work but rewarding work to train critters to get along. i think any mutt is a good mutt.