Bruce's Journal

[Bruce]

This afternoon I started to "condition" the chickens to the dog. I put Merlin's leash on him and took him into the coop (after making sure there were no chickens on the ground) and closed the door. They panicked, two flew down to the ground, doesn't seem logical to me. Merlin sat down, the chickens went back up. Then he laid down. The girls were still pretty agitated. After a while Merlin went to check out the underside of the nest box where the nipple water pipe is. Then he laid down. The girls were more calm by then but on the roost as far as they could get from him. Next he sniffed around under the roosts, that got the girls nervous again as he came under them and they started to head the other way. He then decided it was time to leave so I let him out. Why he had NO reaction to the girls panicking right in front of him but ran after panicked chickens at least twice before is beyond my comprehension. The 2 differences I can think of are:

1. Merlin was on a leash today
2. The girls had no way to escape because they were in a closed space, they didn't run

OK, so I get that it is the chickens that need to understand Merlin isn't a threat. But Merlin shouldn't run after the chickens when they panic, right.

 

[CntryBoy777]

It could be once his 'Curiosity' is satisfied, he won't chase after them. If he feels they are his 'Responsibility', then he has to 'Know' them; and, their 'Territory' too. He has to 'Satisfy his Mind' that he can get to any threat. He may 'Settle' more for ya now, too. Although there will still be Adventures left to 'Unfold' with your 'Growing Group'

 

[Bruce]

Yes I explained to the girls that he just wanted to know "who" belonged in "his" space and who didn't. I don't think they were listening though.

I brought a plastic gallon milk jug down with me this morning. I showed it to him when I came through the gate. He always takes 1 step toward the barn door in front of me then stops and lets me go first. Such a gentleman. I put the milk jug and the water jug for the heated bucket on the workbench. Then I fed the chickens, gave the alpacas' their pellets then fed Merlin. He wasn't real interested in eating so I scrubbed his ears. Then I went to add some hay to the boys' feeder. Merlin chose that time to go over to the workbench, pick up the milk jug and take it out behind the barn to mangle. His bones and other plastic jugs were still on the workbench. Might be it will become his "toy chest". Or maybe I should find another accessible place to store his "toys" so there will still be a usable surface on the bench

 

[Southern by choice]

But Merlin shouldn't run after the chickens when they panic, right

Wrong. But I will get to that last.

Several things-
One- I say it all the time... these dogs are smarter than you and know their job
Two- People end up messing up the dog or scolding a dog or correcting a dog when they shouldn't
Three-
Merlin doesn't need to be on a lead
A lead is used when the dog IS a poultry attacker /killer and needs to be worked with Neither is the case for Merlin
So what you are doing is sending mixed signals to the dog and the message you don't trust him.

When these dogs feel their master doesn't trust them they are not respected and know it. This is generally the first step into potential issues down the road.
TRUST the dog and get out of the way. Stop coddling your chickens and allow the laws of nature to work things out.
Anthropomorhism is not your friend here.

With LGD's when a chicken, goat, lamb... whatever makes a fuss and a raucous it is NORMAL AND EXPECTED for the dog to rush to the animal... they need to figure out what is happening and why. Once the dog sees its is ok then it will just stand there and move away. They are protectors. Protectors don't sit back and do nothing.
If you interfere you are giving the message the chickens are not his and he need not do anything with them... lucky this is a pyr because if this was a Toli then the "helpful Toli" would take your message and think you want the chickens no where where he/she is and would drive them out. That same fuss could mean a hawk came in is going after a chicken... don't you want Merlin to race to it's side?

These are all newbie mistakes but learn from them.
Most people realize after about a year it was the dog that had to teach and train them.

A good example is my micromanaging Silver. Silver would not allow baby goats to far out and would move them "in". To those that don't know these dogs they see the dog and think "he's chasing"... no he is keeping them safe. Sometimes too much as he didn't like them out of the barn and I did have to work with that but ultimately the dog was awesome for it because the baby goats could get through hotwire... being on a road that wasn't good!

When Blue and Pete got into it it was over Blue frantically trying to help a chicken caught in hotwire and Pete thought Blue was messing with his chicken.

Micro managing a dog that is already mature and trustworthy is damaging and you can very well mess up a dog by doing this.
Leave the dog and chickens alone.
One thing that is hard for many new LGD's owners to grasp is this is now MERLIN's space. You need to respect his space, it isn't the other way around.

No matter what field I go to I walk in that field knowing my dogs got everything under control. I have no worries. My job is to feed and care for my livestock and let my dogs do what they do best.
That is partnership.

You've seen the pics of Eliza that is full time with our poultry- when she walks into the building they fluster and make noise and then they stop. They live with her and have for two years.

 

[CntryBoy777]

He'll have a Toy in each portion of area....so something to 'Occupy' time with, is always close by.....most just see the 'Results' of the actions with stuff scatted here or there. However, how many 'Sounds, Smells, and Seen' things took place to 'Change the Focus' and how long there was a Threat responded to...before he got Back to 'Doing' what it was he was doing before....but, so much Happened it slipped his mind.....just like me sometimes.....

 

[Bruce]

OK, I"ll do the dog and chicken thing in the coop today without the leash.

So how does he train me to properly ask "where is my chicken" such that he will show me?

After the "dog in coop" exercise yesterday I realized Echo (Black Australorp) hadn't come to the meeting as required

Thus began "The great chicken hunt, chapter 2". I had reconnected the auto chicken door when I made it dog proof so the girls could come and go as they dared. She couldn't have come out of the south barn door as it was shut all day (wind and snow) so she had to have gone out the alpacas' always open north door. I'll spare the details but I FINALLY found her buried as far as she could get under the steps to the old piece of deck I had the excavators put behind the barn. And I mean DEEP also behind some dead burdock. Would have likely found her the first time if she were a White Rock. This girl is a forager extraordinaire so the fact that she was hiding from the alpacas and/or Merlin means she didn't feel safe making her way back into the barn.

So what happens if the alpacas are running at a chicken?? I've seen Teddy do it twice back before snow and Merlin. The girls were too afraid to go into the barnyard for some time after the alpacas arrived and when they did, at least some times they were rewarded with being run at. Given they never got back to their normal pattern of moving from up by the house to the barnyard later in the day, I don't know how many opportunities Teddy had to run at them.

Will Merlin figure out he has to stop the alpaca? Do I let the alpaca run the chickens? I have no idea why he was doing that.

 

[Southern by choice]

So how does he train me to properly ask "where is my chicken" such that he will show me?

LOL Not his job. Some dogs will do this if they have the aptitude and if they have a strong partnership with their human. But most LGD's won't do this as it is not what they were bred for or purposed to do, they guard.

This girl is a forager extraordinaire so the fact that she was hiding from the alpacas and/or Merlin means she didn't feel safe making her way back into the barn.

More than likely you have a chicken that has figured out it likes to go elsewhere. She may even be going broody. This is not uncommon. Sometimes all is smooth then a bird here or there decides oooh I found a cool place to go. Under all those boards and dark places are bugs. They are better eating then chicken feed. LOL this is how our rogue feral birds of MANY are living in the woods.
In all my years and all my birds I have yet to see a chicken that was so scared it went and hid and would not come out. There is a another reason the chicken is doing this.

So what happens if the alpacas are running at a chicken??

The chickens will learn how to stay out of their way.

The girls were too afraid to go into the barnyard for some time after the alpacas arrived and when they did, at least some times they were rewarded with being run at.

All normal.

Will Merlin figure out he has to stop the alpaca?

That is not Merlin's job. Merlin isn't there to settle barnyard disputes.
Think this through- you want Merlin to stop the alpacas from running at the chickens right? What do you want Merlin to do? Bark, interfere, lunge?
Where does that leave Merlin and his relation to the alpacas? Do you want a bond with the alpacas and trust with Merlin? Do you want them afraid of Merlin?

Do I let the alpaca run the chickens? I have no idea why he was doing that.

It is pecking order and barnyard issues that will work themselves out.
These aren't house pets where they all have to be a happy family. They are farm animals and livestock.They work it out.

.

 

[Bruce]

That went well. Except for the part where I was going to video it. For some reason the flip out screen didn't want to work. I don't use it outside because of sun glare and I find it hard to use with my multifocals.

I tied the people door open and while I was doing so, Merlin went to the water bucket and drank for about 45 minutes Then he went outside. When he came back in I went to the chicken coop and scrubbed his ears. Then I went inside. I think you are right @Southern by choice, he seemed somewhat reluctant to enter so he did understand I had made it off limits. But he did come in for more ear scrubs. The chickens were pretty anxious though I would say a bit better than yesterday. He didn't really pay much attention to them, sniffed around some and got bored. Except when he decided to investigate the nest boxes.

The girls haven't been laying but the plastic eggs "live" in the nest boxes year round. I heard him picking one up. What IS it with these dogs and plastic?? I had to give him a couple of "akk"s (or however you spell that sound). I am hoping this is just a plastic fetish and he isn't going to "help" collect eggs when the girls start laying again. I removed all the plastic eggs. It would be nice if I could put them back in the nests come spring, the girls do prefer a nest that already has an egg in it.

I left the people door open the rest of the day and pulled the "dog excluder" from the chickens' auto door. Night time routine as per usual, gave the chickens their scratch (in the coop, pre Merlin it was out in the alley and may be that way again eventually) and closed the people door. The auto door closes when the sunlight disappears.

 

[CntryBoy777]

Sounds like the situation is Improving...and your 'Confidence' level will increase each day....

 

[Bruce]

Nope on Echo going broody. She's 4.5 years old, has never been broody and the last time she laid was in the spring, always a shell-less egg since she restarted in March. Prior to that she was my best layer. She has some sort of "growth" I'm guessing in her shell gland. It is almost the size of a baseball but doesn't seem to be causing her any distress.

There are no bugs this time of year, it has been well below 0F several times so far. This isn't North Carolina None of my girls has ever willingly gone out in the snow so she was frightened and ran.

ALL of my girls will hide and not come out if they are frightened by something. Chapter 0 of the great chicken hunt had one behind the barn pretending to be an ostrich but the other had crammed herself behind a bunch of plywood leaning up against the outside wall of the little barn. We had to move half of it before DD1 could get far enough in to grab the hen. She wasn't coming out even for scratch. Of course first we had to find her. She is also a Black Australorp so equally hard to see deep in a dark "hole". Chapter 1 had two girls under the deck in back of the house that were coaxed out with scratch. Slowly. Had to find them as well.