Common Misconceptions and Frequently Asked Questions

[trestlecreek]

This post is of course from my point of view.


Actually, goats are MIXED FEEDERS, NOT BROWSERS. WHat this means is, they prefer a mixture of grassy pasture, and browse. The current experts in goat research agree on this point - goats are not strict browsers, they are mixed feeders.
-All goats will eat grass if they have to, but they normally do not like it!! By choice, they prefer browse...


If you teach a goat to tie and lead first, they will respect the tether as a restraint and will not bolt further than the length of the chain. Tethers, under supervision, are a fantastic way to keep goats if you do not have a goat fence.

-Here again, this thread was posted for new people who are not as familiar with goat behavior. You have to realize that this is a basic article. Normally speaking it is not advocated to tie a goat out. I have done it at times, but under a special circumstance.

This largely depends on the breed and class of goat. Adult wethers for example, will do very well on very poor quality hay. Lactating dairy does in contrast, require the very best possible hay.

-All together when looking at the goat diet, they all need a good feed and hay. To balance everything out, it is best to give them more nutrients than to deprive them.

Goats do not need specialised 'goat feed'. They will do just as well on cattle feed, and that is all mine get because I cannot get goat grain around here. Horse feed is fine also. Goats should not need much grain, particularly non producing goats such as adult wethers and adlt dry does.
-Glad to hear about what works/has to for you. Generally speaking though, I have to recommend the very best....

Basically all you need to do is ensure his calcium to phosphorus ratio is 2 to 1. You can use any type of grain of this ratio, and feed as much as you want, without UC problems, as long as the Ca ratio is correct. A few other things to do is to limit grain to 1 cup per animal after 1 yr old; dont wether them until 12 wks, ensure their water intake is high (you can do this by adding salt to their grain, and probably the most important thing, include ammonium chloride in their diet either by addition to their feed, or by provision of an ammonium chloride or 'stone' lick block.
-To properly balance the Ca ratio, you have to look at the fact that all grain has too much phosphorus and the fact that calcium is limited dramatically in most other feedstuffs......My recommendation points most in the right direction with that, I'm not looking for a way around it.....

really, you could house 2 goats in a horse stable, if necessary, with plenty of excercise either off the leash or on it, but out of the stable.
-That can be true, but here again, I recommend the best, not what is acceptable to some.

Google condition scoring goats. You want your goat around condition score 3 at all times
-Yes, if you use that scale. Most people are not extremely familiar with how those systems work,...I point that out simply so one can understand a bit before they dig further themselves....

 

[username taken]

Edit to remove argument

Regarding condition scoring of goats; your method is far too general and cannot apply to all breeds and classes of livestock. For example, a high producing dairy doe (who will always appear emaciated) cannot be compared to a meat wether who is being fed up for slaughter. You are correct in saying that not many people are familiar with the condition scoring system - that is why I urge every goat breeder on this board to FAMILIARISE themselves with it! Condition scoring is one of the most important tools in the goat breeders arsenal, and maintaining correct condition score is vital for goat health and welfare. Here, I'll even give you the link so you dont have to google it for yourself.

http://www.smallstock.info/tools/condscor/cs-goat.htm





cmj, that sucks. You hit the nail on the head right there though, they do need the roughage alongside the grain. So perhaps I should say they can have as much grain as they want as long as they are eating roughage as well - and roughage for the boys should be grass or cereal hay, not alfalfa. Your boy got himself into a nasty cycle - goats do best on high roughage with only a tiny bit of grain - after all, that is what is most natural to them - and when they are on high grain and low ration, things get really screwy in their system. Everything gets out of balance, and that is why your boy found himself with a case of UC even with the correctly formulated grain.

Its also worth mentioning here - Apple Cider Vinegar doesnt do a thing for UC.

 

[username taken]

more condition scoring links

http://bedford.extension.psu.edu/agriculture/goat/Body Condition Scoring.htm

http://www.extension.org/pages/Goat_Body_Condition_Score

 

[Blackbird]

Thankyou Keren, great post; all the words I wanted to type but didn't have the time to.

Trestle, I seem to remember you picking apart other's post before. Relax, its not the end of the world - yet.

 

[trestlecreek]

Edited.......

 

[cmjust0]

cmj, that sucks.

Big time... If there's any silver lining, though, the boy's still alive and seems content enough for now, and I got a really good lesson in the cause, prevention, and treatment of UC.

You hit the nail on the head right there though, they do need the roughage alongside the grain. So perhaps I should say they can have as much grain as they want as long as they are eating roughage as well - and roughage for the boys should be grass or cereal hay, not alfalfa.

Can I ask...why not alfalfa?

I was told the same thing by another person.. My thinking, though, is that alfalfa contains high levels of calcium.. Most UC stones are struvite (Magnesium Ammonium Phosphate), and calcium does something with the phosphorus to make it less...dangerous? for lack of a better word..

I guess it just seemed to me that a high roughage, high protein, high calcium diet with only a tiny bit of 'training grain' would be pretty ideal for a growing male...?

At least that was the conclusion I drew...where am I going wrong?

Your boy got himself into a nasty cycle - goats do best on high roughage with only a tiny bit of grain - after all, that is what is most natural to them - and when they are on high grain and low ration, things get really screwy in their system. Everything gets out of balance, and that is why your boy found himself with a case of UC even with the correctly formulated grain.

Yep.. He had half a bladder full of sandy MAP stones. Literally, half his bladder....I saw it myself on the ultrasound.

And you're right when you say...................

Its also worth mentioning here - Apple Cider Vinegar doesnt do a thing for UC.

..................ACV is useless. The acidic component of ACV -- acetic acid -- is the same as they produce in their rumen. If acetic acid were enough to prevent UC, it wouldn't even be a thing in goats.

Ammonium chloride...that's the trick. If anyone out there is raising male goats -- bucks, bucklings, or wethers -- and you don't have water soluble ammonium chloride on hand, order some.

Get some banamine and/or acepromazine, along with dexamethasone, too.. The urethral inflammation from passing UC stones can close the urethra just as effectively as the stones themselves. Gotta treat that inflammation.

 

[kimmyh]

Alfalfa is perfectly balanced cal to phos most of the year, it is the best value for the dollar as a goat feed according to my vet, a specialist contacted by other vets across the country, Canada, and Great Britain. Some goats will survive in spite of what they are fed, there is no doubt, particularly mixed breed goats, or what I think of as mustang goats. Those goats have had to survive on a poor diet for so many generations that they can seem to get by on even a bad diet.

An underfed doe (she needs increased nutrition 3 months before conception, and for the first two and last two months of gestation) will draw from her bones and internal organs, thereby depleting her system, in order to feed her babies. This type of doe may survive to kid for many years, but not nearly as many as a well fed, well cared for animal. And by well fed, I don't mean obese, I mean well muscled, well fleshed. A walking skeleton is an advertisement for the breeder that they haven't done their job in getting a doe ready to be bred, and keeping her in condition throughout her pregnancy, plain and simple, in my opinion.

As to AC, the latest studies (again as reported by my vet from a recent conf) show that AC fed daily is actually counter productive to urinary health. Think of AC as goat Draino, if it is fed daily, then when there is an episode, it does not work as well. I drench with AC when the temperature changes hot to cold, cold to hot, and that's it. Since I have changed that part of my routine, I have not seen a case of UC in my 200+ herd. Table salt sprinkled on their grain to increase water consumption can help as a daily routine in the summer, and the first part of the winter.

 

[kimmyh]

Oops, forgot to address the space issue. Goats can indeed handle smaller areas for a short time, IF the pen is cleaned every day. If not, add space, because feces in a goat pen can lead to a cocci outbreak in short order as the feces builds up. Goats are a lot like humans, if they are crowded they will fight more, and more goats will be injured.

 

[cmjust0]

I just found an interesting write-up on Ca .. Though it's intended for horse people, the writer has taken the time to list the common Ca and P values for certain forages and a really in-depth formula to calculate Ca for mixed hay..

I did the math on Alfalfa/Orchard Grass, which is a really common hay to this area.. Assuming a 50/50 mix on a 50lb bale (round numbers ):

Alfalfa:
25lbs = 11.36kg total weight
1.24% Ca = 140.9g
0.22% P = 25.0g

Orchard grass:
25lbs = 11.36kg total weight
0.24% Ca = 27.3g
0.30% P = 34.0g

Totals:
168.2g Ca
59g P

168.2 / 59 = 2.85:1, Ca ratio


...which is friggin perfect for goats, IMHO.

 

[cmjust0]

...also...

If you consider that good Alfalfa runs somewhere between 16% and 22% crude protein, and orchardgrass runs somewhere around 7% - 10% or thereabout, then the total protein ranges somewhere between 12% and 16%.

Feed the lesser hay to your dry does and bucks, and the better hay to your milkers and kids.

Throw in a little grain here and there, just to keep them and their rumens accustomed to it enough that if you have to put them in the stanchion for hoof trimming or shots or whatever...or just so you can continue shaking a feed pan to call them in....

BAM...you're done.

Or, so it would seem, anyway.

This is sort of a validation for the things we've been doing at our place.. Plenty of alfalfa-mix hay, and just enough grain to get them out of the way while we're swapping out water buckets and putting fresh hay in the feeder.. That's pretty much it.

And we've STILL got a few head that are, quite frankly, so fat that they're starting to seriously give me pause as to whether or not they'll be safe to breed in a month or two.