Correct Way to Train LGD *Updated 2 years later

[CentexSweetheart]

I didn't take it negatively at all! I'm so sorry, re-reading my post now, I was a little negative and I apologize. As I've said before I'm here to learn, and constructive criticism is one of the best ways. I truly appreciate your input, I've not been here long and you've already helped me learn and shown me that even in areas I may think I know there's still a lot for me to learn. Even if I sound a little put down, I probably don't mean it that way. I can't thank anyone enough for any information that might help me be as successful as possible.

 

[KinderKorner]

Oops! I've been playing tug of war and fetch with Kuzco all along. Although he has gotten to the point he doesn't care for fetch anymore.

If I can't do that with him, what other ways can I play with him and stimulate him?

I've been working with him a lot. It's still a work in progress. I took him in with the goats for a long time Yesterday. I even let him "off leash." (I left a 10ft rope dragging behind him so I could grab it if need be)

He is perfectly fine being in with them and he doesn't bother them. Such as they will eat out of the hay manger when he is laying beside it. But if something spooks them and they run it instantly triggers a chase for him.

I had to flip him a couple more times. Although now when he does something naughty and he sees me coming at him he just flips himself.

He was okay with the goats but the worst thing he did is corner the cat inside the fence. Every time she gets inside he chases her. She turned on him when cornered and scratched his nose, then she tried to dart through, and he managed to catch her back end when she got half way though.

He didn't clamp hard, and he let her go as soon as I got close and flipped himself, but she was quite slobbered on.

I think a shock collar would be the way to go on him. I'm still waiting to hear back from my friends. Otherwise I'll just have to buy one myself.

 

[Southern by choice]

We run our dogs and wrestle all in fun, we play "hide" and we find most of the time they just like to show off for us... by that they will run as fast as they can and dart around and come barrelling back straight for us and stop or turn on a dime to just avoid knocking into us. This can be dangerous... LOL... we "brace" our selves because every once in a while they will miscalculate.
Fetch and tug of war are big no-no's... now if they pick up a flower pot of log and run with it that is ok, they are self entertaining, sometimes we say "I want that - give me that" the dogs know our voices are playing and it is in no way a command so they take off and them run up like they are giving it to us just to run again... they LOVE this. then they tire and crash in our laps and get loved on. This also promotes that bonding and love/respect for the master. Now if they knock into us they are scolded- "watch out- what are you doing- bad boy- be careful!"

The next part you mentioned if the goats get spooked and they run he chases.. not being ignorant here, could you describe in detail exactly what he does. Better, if you can video it you can always e-mail it to me. I am wondering if there is confusion.
Typically if goats get spooked the dog will leap into action to find the threat, and boy can they move fast. Some dogs will immediately try to hold back the animals to keep them in place so they can investigate. We have teams so it makes everything easier when something is causing the goats to spook.

The cat- well you might not be happy with this BUT the cat is fair game if it goes in his field. That is how we handle it here. Our dogs are all ok with the cats BUT not in the fields. The cats do not go in the fields. They have learned. We have an area sometimes used by goats and dogs where the cats go but they are less intense about the cats being there because it isn't really "their" field.

Be careful with giving too much slack... you can seriously hurt by grabbing or stepping on the lead when he takes off. Ask me how I know. I was working a GSD on a 30 ft lead, suddenly she took off, I was not prepared (my own fault) and she had been right beside me so she had power, strength, and momentum.... I flew through the air, landed face and shoulder first.

Robbin had a good recommendation for a collar!

 

[Robbin]

I think a shock collar would be the way to go on him. I'm still waiting to hear back from my friends. Otherwise I'll just have to buy one myself.

Collars have a great advantage over all other physical correction means. You can correct instantly, from any distance. So the behavior you want to stop is occurring when the correction is given, not 30 seconds later after you have caught up to them.
Another HUGE advantage is you don’t have to overpower an adult Anatolian to correct him. Mine is a brute and strong as a bull, I really don’t want to physically fight with him and I couldn’t catch him if my life depended on it.
One thing to watch out for, the dog must KNOW it is correction coming from you. If you yell NO, just before the correction, they figure it out really fast. But I've read that they can associate the shock with another animal or person and be dangerous. So the first time you mildly shock them, you don't want them to have their mouth on a goat. Start with very short, mild stimulation. Not even painful, but it gets their attention and work up if needed. You need to be sure the dog understands the correction. And a collar can't fix everything. Toli grew up chasing cats, they are his cats, he doesn't hurt them unless he steps on them. The cats loved it and teased Toli into chasing them and I allowed it without realizing how detrimental it would be in the long run. Now that he can catch them and he weighs 120lbs, they don’t like it anymore. So I’m training him not to chase them. So now he will stop when I say stop (no collar needed), but he chases them when I’m not there. So even the collar can’t fix behavior that is ingrained. It’s not magic, it sure won't correct my stupid mistakes.

I’ve shocked Toli 2 times, twice chasing deer, and I’ve used the vibrator function twice chasing cats and twice chasing deer. But Toli is use to correction by a collar because I have an ingound fence. So it takes very little to get his attention. He knows what the results are if he doesn’t react to the warning.

There is a place for an e collar training on an LGD, but treat it like you would hitting your dog. I love my dog and would risk my life for him. I don’t want him living in fear of me. But just like my kids, they know there is a point where things are going to start going badly for them, and they didn’t (usually) go there. :/

With LGDs there are things that MUST be stopped, and an e collar can make a difference.

 

[Southern by choice]

As a trainer I avoid collars and feel they are more of a last resort. I much prefer working with the individual to make them re-think and re-program. I DO agree that they can be effective when used properly and when there really isn't time to keep working. Most behaviors are started at the 6 week mark-and incorrect correction and/or lack of proper training during imprinting stage results in many unwanted behaviors. Certain "hard" dogs will benefit from it's use.
These dogs are very smart and also know when the collar is "off".
Robbin is 100% correct, overuse will be counterproductive. Honestly most people think if they just shock the crap out of them that will solve it. It doesn't.

KK I know that isn't you or what you'd do.
Robbin you have great advice on the use of the collar.

 

[KinderKorner]

I wanted to post an update!

We tried many things, including a shock collar but nothing seemed to correct his bad behavior. Kuzco lived with the horse up until summer of last year I believe. So he would have been around 1.5 years old. Then he began digging holes under the fence and getting in with the goats while I was at work. I was always alarmed, and would catch him and put him back, and check everyone over. Well it kept happening and happening, and I just couldn't stop it.

All the times he got in there, he never chased, or hurt anyone. But I was still scared. I talked to my local LGD mentor and she told me that he was just acting on instinct to be with his goats, and that I should show him a little trust. So cautiously I did. I allowed him to stay with the goats. He rest is history.

Almost over night he has turned into a wonderful guardian dog. Not had any problems since, except a little bit of food aggression towards the goats. He loves them, and does a fantastic job protecting them from an abundance of coyotes. I have personally watched him saved them more than once, and I am so thankful I didn't give up on him. He is truly amazing, and he really loves "his" goats.

Interestingly enough he hasn't dug out of a fence since moving back in with the goats. It seems as that is all he really wanted. I am so enamored with him that I actually have since gotten another puppy, because our predator problem is so bad. I worry Kuzco can't defend against all. (I can see up to 8 coyotes in broad daylight.)

Now we are struggling with the same things with her. Oddly enough she is almost the exact same age as Kuzco was when I first posted this. But going back and reading this post has given me great hope. I'm optimistic that she will mature and be a fantastic dog.

Very pleased with both of them, and it's very cool to see their different personalities. They will make a great pair.

 

[HoneyDreameMomma]

That's great news! The best thing about getting a puppy when you have a good adult LGD, is that the adult LGD becomes your partner in training. My experience has been that it's MUCH easier than training a puppy all by yourself. Best of luck! I look forward to hearing how it goes. Also, I think I speak for a lot of us when I say, pictures please!

 

[KinderKorner]

Brand new pictures posted in my new journal!