Coughing... Lung worms OR Virus?

[Sara1226]

Hi everyone, I am new to having goats, and this is my first posting. I started with 2 Nigerian dwarf wethers from a reputable breeder, and added a 3rd one 2 weeks ago. The third one was born the beginning of July. After about the 2nd day I had him I noticed he had a dry cough. I let it go a day to see if it would clear up and it didn't so I took him to a vet that sees farm animals. The doctor concluded he had lung worms based on the fact that he was under weight (14 pounds), his coat was thin, and the breeder (different person from the other two I got) had never wormed him. Doctor gave me an antibiotic pill, and told me to also worm with safeguard. A fellow goat owner told me to use Ivermectin instead. *Now forgive me... I'm terrible at math and measurements. I can't figure it out to save my life.* I wormed for 3 days with 1/2 inch squirt out of an ivermectin paste tube. I tried to get the antibiotic into him but no matter what I did he spit it out. Crushed it.. used apple sauce, molasses, etc. still fought me tooth and nail! As I noticed one of my previous two goats (they HAVE been wormed twice) started a dry cough. So I checked back in with the vet and he said to give up on the antibiotic (I requested more) and try the safeguard.

Should I try to find my own antibiotic online? Is there a kind I can out in water to treat all three goats?

Is that the right thing to do? I'm at a loss and very frustrated, can someone PLEASE tell me if this sounds like worms or a virus??

Any help is greatly appreciated! I don't know what to do. I'll try to attach some pictures of them.

 

[Sara1226]

Little guy.

 

[Ponker]

I just saw your post. I'm sorry to hear about the cough in your goats. Its so frustrating. I think you may have better luck with some advice by posting in the goat section. The goat people on here are so helpful and kind. Well, everyone is really. Don't be discouraged. The goat experts will chime in soon. I'm having a time with a little ewe lamb and did get some awesome advice.

I'm not a goat expert but first, I would collect fresh poop from each goat and have a proper fecal analysis done. That will tell you what parasites you are facing. (Maybe not lungworm but the others) It will also give you a 'count'. Then you'll know what dewormer to use because not all dewormers are effective against all parasites. When you identify the parasite - find the dewormer that is effective against it - then wait ten days and collect another poop sample for analysis. Compare the new 'count' with the old 'count' and you'll be able to see if your dewormer did the trick or not. Sometimes, there are resistant strains of parasites in areas and until you know what works and what doesn't - you're flying blind. By doing the fecal samples, you're also able to target the specific animal that has the problem instead of treating everyone, needed or not.

If your Vet suggested Safeguard it's probably because it works in your area for the parasite he diagnosed. Is there dust or mold or anything that could be irritating them?

 

[babsbag]

Goats can drive us crazy and from CA.

Now let's see if we can figure this out. It could be either lungworm or a virus. The lifecycle of lungworm needs a snail and wet pastures. I don't know where you live, but where I am in CA the chance of lungworm is one in a million. Did this little guy come from an area where lungworm is likely? Do you have wet pastures and standing water and snails where you live?

I have never tried to give an antibiotic to a goat by mouth, I would fail miserably at that. If you want to treat with an antibiotic I would use an injectable, and Oxcytetracycline would be my first choice. You can get it at TSC as Duramycin or Biomycin. The dose is on the bottle. Duramycin LA 200 is given every other day for three doses. Give the injection Sub Q. If you don't know how to do an injection maybe someone can help you or look on YouTube.

I'm just going to cut and paste this article on lungworm. According to this Ivermctin is not the drug of choice.

LUNGWORM
By Sue Reith.

>>A goat owner writes: "I think that I am dealing with a batch of lungworms. I have some goats coughing -- actually most of them, and
several of the calves seem to be coughing. None are ill, no temps, no discharge other than some clear stuff. I did nor did I do any fecals,
as I recall, lungworms won't show up well there --- right??

Your suspicion sounds quite logical, and, sadly, it is a waste of time to run a fecal sample to look for lungworm as it is all but impossible
to detect it that way... My rule of thumb is... Worm for it, and if the goat stops coughing, you guessed right! You've already figured out
that nothing else would be a logical culprit, after all...

No matter what it might claim on the labeling, Ivomec is NOT the choice to use for lungworm. The AASRP (American Ass'n of Small
Ruminant Practitioners) research has shown that the common lungworm responds best to Levamisole. Tramisol is a brand of
Levamisole, and there are generics out there as well. It comes in different forms, boluses, injectable, powder, etc. The best way to find
the best price is to “Google it in” and shop for a while!

The good news is that you treat your coughing goat with Levamisole at normal doses (NOT larger doses, as others may suggest) if it
turns out that lungworms are not the cause of the problem (which is not likely, based on your description of her condition), you not have
wasted your effort, as Levamisole is also a good general wormer, and your goat will have been the benefit of treating with it no matter
what!

Generally, after that very first dose of Levamisole has been administered, the owner will notice a reduction in coughing. But that doesn't
mean the problem has been solved, trust me! It only tells you that your 'guess' was right! But when a goat has lungworm to the degree
you describe that first, single dose of Levamisole (as with goat wormers in general) will ONLY wipe out the adult worms in the goat!
There will still be more lungworm eggs left behind in the lungs. And after a couple of weeks those left-behind eggs they'll be adults
themselves,, and will will start laying their own, additional eggs... That is why I always urge goat owners to worm 3X in a row, with ~ 10
days between wormings, so as to wipe out every leftover egg as it matures, and BEFORE it starts laying more eggs in the goat's lungs!
This is a critical part of successful treatment!The people I've worked with on Lungworm infections have found they actually had to treat for several weeks in a row to entirely get the job done... And that, of course, can only only be determined when, after you stop treatment, the cough doesnt start over again, that the problem was indeed Lungworm... But as I am a firm believer in 'overkill',I always recommend that the owner of a coughing goat go ahead and retreat as noted, simply because no one wants to have to start all over again if the job wasn't completed with the first round! And having done that, if the cough returns at a later time, at that point that the owner will have to look for a new problem and a new diagnosis, to deal with.

However, the good news is, the Levamisole product is also an excellent general wormer, so that once you're finished, your goats should
be completely worm free! And they will remain that way, unless you bring in a new goat, one that's carrying its own load of worms, without isolating and worming it in advance, your goat environment will remain free of additional contamination endlessly from then on!

BTW: Letting lungworm go for very long without treatment, will eventually cause permanent lung damage, which will shorten the goat's life...

The Merck Manual says this as far as drug choices and it seems that Ivermectin or Safeguard is not the drug for goats.

The benzimidazoles (fenbendazole, oxfendazole, and albendazole) and macrocyclic lactones (ivermectin, doramectin, eprinomectin, and moxidectin) are frequently used in cattle and are effective against all stages of D viviparus. These drugs are also effective against lungworms in sheep, horses, and pigs. Levamisole is used in cattle, sheep, and goats, but treatment may need to be repeated 2 wk later because it is less effective against larvae during the early stages.

It is best to always have a fecal done before worming as it is not good to worm unnecessarily, the worms are becoming resistant to wormers and different wormers treat different worms. If I use Ivermectin I use injectable Ivermectin given orally at a dose of 1cc/40 lbs.

If you have more questions don't hesitate to ask. Hope this helps.

 

[Southern by choice]

I do not think your goat has lungworm.

The timeline doesn't really align itself with a severe lungworm infection that would be affecting the goat at this age and stage.
It is possible but there are several factors to consider.

Timeline-

born the beginning of July.

The kid would have been nursing for much of the first 5-6 weeks, nibbling grass/hay etc but not sole source of feed....
That puts the kid into Aug range.

Basically their are 2 types of lungworm- one of the lungworm types requires a snail as an intermediary host. Was the farm having flooding issues. Are there lots of snails?
Was the kid out on pasture?
The other type does not both have an intererting life cycle.

After about the 2nd day I had him I noticed he had a dry cough.

This could a symptom of another issue which I will share below.

The doctor concluded he had lung worms based on the fact that he was under weight (14 pounds), his coat was thin, and the breeder (different person from the other two I got) had never wormed him.

A Baermann's float could be run by your vet to confirm. First stage can be seen under scope. 4th stage would be found in the sieve on the float... the float sits for several hours.
Most don't bother with a Baermanns float but treat instead if it is suspected.
The weight of the kid , the coat issue can have many causes.
Most breeders do not worm baby kids as there is no need.
Never deworm without reason, confirmed by a fecal. I have 9 month old kids that had 2 eggs. No one would deworm for that.

Although the symptoms are coughing and compromised respiratory the kid just seems so young to have that severe of an infection.
However possible and can cause unthriftiness.

If severe enough it will take time 4months- 2 years to heal the lesions.

My first thought is possibly cocci.
When he was transported that can cause shipping fever it can also cause a parasitic bloom. I say this because a fecal sample should be done asap and checked for cocci eggs. Cocci is NOT treated by dewormers. It isn't a worm. Cocci is a big kid killer.

Cocci slowly destroys the goat's intestinal tract. Because the goat cann ot absorb nutrition there is poor weight gain, lacklustre coat, stunted growth, lowers the immune system, anemia...

Many think that a cocci infection isn't present unless there is diarrhea- this is NOT true. It often does cause that but may also cause constipation, dehydration etc.
Kids are most susceptible to cocci from 1 month -4 months of age... a few cocci eggs isn't an issue... it becomes an issue when there are many then it becomes cocci the disease or infection.
Cocci must be treated with different products.

Generally once a goat is weaned their risk of having a cocci bloom skyrockets, add to that a move to a new home and that bloom sets the kid up for risk of severe infection and if not discovered soon enough the kid may not recover.

So I know you are asking what about the cough?
Many kids that have cocci infection and have immune compromised systems and are much more susceptible to secondary infections like pneumonia. The respiratory is affected.


Other causes that could cause cough issues are birthing complications, many kids will outgrow that. As far as weight. How many kids were in the litter? How much did the kid weigh at birth?
There is a big difference between a single, twin, or a quint. Our quads and quints may be only 1lb 9oz at birth vs a twin at 4-6 pounds. At 3-4 months they will be very different in size.

Did the kid have a fever?
As far as the antibiotic- um I have NEVER heard of a vet giving an anti-biotic pill to a goat. EVER.
Injectables are given to goats because their metabolism is very fast. Pills are not going to stay in the system long enough to be effective.

 

[babsbag]

I wondered about the lifecycle of lungworm and him being so young.

@Southern by choice When you can dig up the info on that lungworm that doesn't require snails as a host please post it. I have searched and searched and have found nothing and that would be good to know for my area where it is so dry.

 

[Southern by choice]

@babsbag

No snail required-
http://www.goatbiology.com/animations/dictyo.html

Snail required-
http://www.goatbiology.com/animations/muellerius.html

 

[babsbag]

Thanks. So I looked this up...Merck Manual:

Adult females in the bronchi lay larvated eggs that hatch either in the bronchi (D viviparus, D filaria) or in host feces (D arnfieldi) after being coughed up and swallowed. The infective third-stage larvae can develop on pasture within 5–7 days in warm, moist conditions, but typically in summer in temperate northern climates will require 2–3 wk. Once larvae are infective, transmission depends on their dispersal away from the fecal pats. Dispersal mechanisms are, primarily, mechanical and include rain or, in the case of D viviparus and possibly D arnfieldi, by the sporangia of the fungus Pilobolus. A proportion of infective larvae survive on pasture throughout the winter until the following year but, in very cold conditions, most become nonviable.

Not likely that I will have these in my part of CA.

 

[Latestarter]

Greetings and welcome to BYH Sorry you're having issues with your wether(s). We have a lot of great goat folks here, some of which have already responded to you Hope you can get to the root of the issue and get it cleared up! Meanwhile, there's a wealth of info in the various threads... Browse around and make yourself at home! If you have questions, just post away. Most times somebody will jump right in in short order. Glad to have you here with us!

 

[babsbag]

I know we posted a lot of information so I am going to narrow down what I would do if these were my goats.

1. get a fecal done, check for worms and cocci and treat if needed.
2. start them on an injectable antibiotic
3. make sure they have access to a good goat loose mineral, the poor coat could be from a mineral deficiency, as could the small size. Selenium in particular can cause kids to be stunted.