Farmer Kitty
True BYH Addict
It's a hard situation. 
Daggone it...urinary calculi
- Thread starter cmjust0
- Start date
Mini-M Ranch
Overrun with beasties
- Thread starter
- #53
No real changes, except that he seems to be persisting even without pain meds.. I suppose that's a teeny improvement, considering that if he went more than a few hours without pain meds before, he'd get really depressed and didn't want to eat or anything.
I'm going to call the vet today for one last thing...a round of Dexamethasone to be given for several days in a row.. I was hesitant to do that before because he was on so much NSAID, but he's not now.. So, I figure we can give a whole bunch of Dex a whirl and see what happens..
If that doesn't work, we've more or less decided that there's no sense in putting him down so long as he still eats and wants to be scratched and loved on.. If he grunts and strains and dribbles, but still eats hay and grazes and does other goat things...I'll let him be. Heck...maybe he's just got some scar tissue in there that he'll grow out of. Never know.
If, however, at any point he gets depressed and won't eat, or acts like he's in constant pain, I'll put him down.
We'll see.
I'm going to call the vet today for one last thing...a round of Dexamethasone to be given for several days in a row.. I was hesitant to do that before because he was on so much NSAID, but he's not now.. So, I figure we can give a whole bunch of Dex a whirl and see what happens..
If that doesn't work, we've more or less decided that there's no sense in putting him down so long as he still eats and wants to be scratched and loved on.. If he grunts and strains and dribbles, but still eats hay and grazes and does other goat things...I'll let him be. Heck...maybe he's just got some scar tissue in there that he'll grow out of. Never know.
If, however, at any point he gets depressed and won't eat, or acts like he's in constant pain, I'll put him down.
We'll see.
FarmerChick
Overrun with beasties
I feel for you. I had 2 bucks do this to me.
Both I put down after treatment on the farm with all I knew. I would never take one of my goats to a vet. I do this as a business and the money involved would outweigh the use for me, but I learned alot about your adventures at the vets office. Interesting.
I know putting them down is never easy and I hope he makes it. But good chance he will always have problems. That is another reason I have to move forward when I farm animals.
Nothing "alive" is ever easy to farm. I know and I hope the best for him.
Both I put down after treatment on the farm with all I knew. I would never take one of my goats to a vet. I do this as a business and the money involved would outweigh the use for me, but I learned alot about your adventures at the vets office. Interesting.
I know putting them down is never easy and I hope he makes it. But good chance he will always have problems. That is another reason I have to move forward when I farm animals.
Nothing "alive" is ever easy to farm. I know and I hope the best for him.
- Thread starter
- #55
First off, thanks. I know you mean what you say, and I do appreciate the fact that you're pulling for him.. I really do.
That said, I hope you won't take the rest of this as an attack...it's not meant to be. It's just something I feel like I need to get off my chest..
I know a lot of folks wouldn't take a goat to the vet, and I understand the economics of it all. Bottom line, goats are cheap.. I could have knocked this little goat in the head the moment he started dribbling, thereby saving myself the vet bills and only have been out the value of the goat...which would be maybe $50. I even could have put him in the freezer and recovered that..
Problem is, that "too cheap to save" attitude only contributes to the health problems and difficulty in raising goats.
These days, when a goat starts going south with something that can't be treated cheaply on the farm using whatever techniques have already been devised, it's pretty much dead. People only know to do what they've been doing for decades, and if that doesn't work...oh well. Few people will call a vet for a $50 goat.
Not only is that kind of a shame for the goat, but it perpetuates the same problem on to the next goat because nothing was learned.. New techniques are not -- and may never be -- forthcoming, because it's basically a given that nobody's willing to spend very much money to keep a goat alive.
I mean...why would anyone waste their talent for veterinary medicine trying to figure out ways to save goats from particular illnesses when "goat economics" dictate that nobody's going to call and ask for help anyhow? It's futile...a vet would do well to learn about cattle or horses or dogs instead, if they want to earn a living.
The irony, of course, is that they'll probably be criticized by goat people who bemoan the fact that so few vets knows how to treat a goat..
I'd like to see those attitudes change, personally.. I'd like to see it such that goat owners are expected to afford their animals the level of care that's afforded, say, to cattle or horses.. I'd like to see things change to the point refusing to provide veterinary care for goats is frowned upon, and those who refuse to do it are not enabled to continue raising (and killing) goats....instead of simply being looked at as smart business people who are just doing what they have to do to keep up the bottom line.
Reason being, if that paradigm shift came to pass, there would be a lot fewer people raising fewer, healthier, higher quality goats.. If there were fewer people raising fewer and better goats, goats would command more money. If goats were worth more money, putting them under the care of a qualified veterinarian would be more easily justified.. If veterinary care for goats were more common, more veterinarians would have experience with goats.. If more vets had experience with goats, their ability to care for goats and to be innovative with treatments would be enhanced dramatically.. As new treatments became available, raising goats would get easier, and less goats would have to die.
All in all, it would be an upward spiral for all involved...
I can't say that I expect it to ever happen, but I certainly wish that it would.. That said, I feel like I'm doing my part..and, I'm learning...and my vet is learning..and maybe some folks here are learning..
If nothing else good comes from my little buck's plight, at least I'll have that.
Ok...I feel better now.
That said, I hope you won't take the rest of this as an attack...it's not meant to be. It's just something I feel like I need to get off my chest..
I know a lot of folks wouldn't take a goat to the vet, and I understand the economics of it all. Bottom line, goats are cheap.. I could have knocked this little goat in the head the moment he started dribbling, thereby saving myself the vet bills and only have been out the value of the goat...which would be maybe $50. I even could have put him in the freezer and recovered that..
Problem is, that "too cheap to save" attitude only contributes to the health problems and difficulty in raising goats.
These days, when a goat starts going south with something that can't be treated cheaply on the farm using whatever techniques have already been devised, it's pretty much dead. People only know to do what they've been doing for decades, and if that doesn't work...oh well. Few people will call a vet for a $50 goat.
Not only is that kind of a shame for the goat, but it perpetuates the same problem on to the next goat because nothing was learned.. New techniques are not -- and may never be -- forthcoming, because it's basically a given that nobody's willing to spend very much money to keep a goat alive.
I mean...why would anyone waste their talent for veterinary medicine trying to figure out ways to save goats from particular illnesses when "goat economics" dictate that nobody's going to call and ask for help anyhow? It's futile...a vet would do well to learn about cattle or horses or dogs instead, if they want to earn a living.
The irony, of course, is that they'll probably be criticized by goat people who bemoan the fact that so few vets knows how to treat a goat..
I'd like to see those attitudes change, personally.. I'd like to see it such that goat owners are expected to afford their animals the level of care that's afforded, say, to cattle or horses.. I'd like to see things change to the point refusing to provide veterinary care for goats is frowned upon, and those who refuse to do it are not enabled to continue raising (and killing) goats....instead of simply being looked at as smart business people who are just doing what they have to do to keep up the bottom line.
Reason being, if that paradigm shift came to pass, there would be a lot fewer people raising fewer, healthier, higher quality goats.. If there were fewer people raising fewer and better goats, goats would command more money. If goats were worth more money, putting them under the care of a qualified veterinarian would be more easily justified.. If veterinary care for goats were more common, more veterinarians would have experience with goats.. If more vets had experience with goats, their ability to care for goats and to be innovative with treatments would be enhanced dramatically.. As new treatments became available, raising goats would get easier, and less goats would have to die.
All in all, it would be an upward spiral for all involved...
I can't say that I expect it to ever happen, but I certainly wish that it would.. That said, I feel like I'm doing my part..and, I'm learning...and my vet is learning..and maybe some folks here are learning..
If nothing else good comes from my little buck's plight, at least I'll have that.
Ok...I feel better now.
lilhill
Loving the herd life
Thank you for saying that so eloquently.
FarmerChick
Overrun with beasties
LOL I won't take it as an attack. Views from all sides are always a good debate.cmjust0 said:First off, thanks. I know you mean what you say, and I do appreciate the fact that you're pulling for him.. I really do.
That said, I hope you won't take the rest of this as an attack...it's not meant to be. It's just something I feel like I need to get off my chest..
I know a lot of folks wouldn't take a goat to the vet, and I understand the economics of it all. Bottom line, goats are cheap.. I could have knocked this little goat in the head the moment he started dribbling, thereby saving myself the vet bills and only have been out the value of the goat...which would be maybe $50. I even could have put him in the freezer and recovered that..
Problem is, that "too cheap to save" attitude only contributes to the health problems and difficulty in raising goats.
These days, when a goat starts going south with something that can't be treated cheaply on the farm using whatever techniques have already been devised, it's pretty much dead. People only know to do what they've been doing for decades, and if that doesn't work...oh well. Few people will call a vet for a $50 goat.
Not only is that kind of a shame for the goat, but it perpetuates the same problem on to the next goat because nothing was learned.. New techniques are not -- and may never be -- forthcoming, because it's basically a given that nobody's willing to spend very much money to keep a goat alive.
I mean...why would anyone waste their talent for veterinary medicine trying to figure out ways to save goats from particular illnesses when "goat economics" dictate that nobody's going to call and ask for help anyhow? It's futile...a vet would do well to learn about cattle or horses or dogs instead, if they want to earn a living.
The irony, of course, is that they'll probably be criticized by goat people who bemoan the fact that so few vets knows how to treat a goat..
I'd like to see those attitudes change, personally.. I'd like to see it such that goat owners are expected to afford their animals the level of care that's afforded, say, to cattle or horses.. I'd like to see things change to the point refusing to provide veterinary care for goats is frowned upon, and those who refuse to do it are not enabled to continue raising (and killing) goats....instead of simply being looked at as smart business people who are just doing what they have to do to keep up the bottom line.
Reason being, if that paradigm shift came to pass, there would be a lot fewer people raising fewer, healthier, higher quality goats.. If there were fewer people raising fewer and better goats, goats would command more money. If goats were worth more money, putting them under the care of a qualified veterinarian would be more easily justified.. If veterinary care for goats were more common, more veterinarians would have experience with goats.. If more vets had experience with goats, their ability to care for goats and to be innovative with treatments would be enhanced dramatically.. As new treatments became available, raising goats would get easier, and less goats would have to die.
All in all, it would be an upward spiral for all involved...
I can't say that I expect it to ever happen, but I certainly wish that it would.. That said, I feel like I'm doing my part..and, I'm learning...and my vet is learning..and maybe some folks here are learning..
If nothing else good comes from my little buck's plight, at least I'll have that.
Ok...I feel better now.
For me, the first line of defense is the owner. You either are a farmer or not if you own livestock, and a responsible owner knows their livestocks ailments and cures. So most of it can be vetted at home easily.
Second I am lucky that my large animal vet does goats. I had him here only once in the beginning 10 years ago when I had a sick preggo doe. She died but I learned the problem, what to look for and never had another one pass away from that.
And I can call and get meds and shots and all if needed from him. Describe the problem and pick up meds. So again, I have a vet that helps and doesn't hinder. Keeps costs down while getting best for the animal. This is rare that I use this service cause healthy maintenance of livestock means less nasty problems. BUT remember I am a farmer that researched all the signs of problems to look for, I can do my own fecals, I know what bottlejaw looks like when most think a goat might have been bitten by a snake and all the other mistakes and no knowledge that people have on goats. So for me to say in general, you have an animal, if you want to save money know how to farm that animal inside and out. That way you are as responsible as you can be and save money at the same time.
A business is a business. My goats were worth considerably more than $50. I don't have $50 goats....LOL---but don't get me wrong, a cheap or expensive goat should get the same care. It would from me.
But what I can't handle is when backyard owners won't take the time to learn true info. on care and ailments and fast home remedies to save the life...don't look for the signs, don't have good feeding skills etc. (not saying this about you at all---just in general)
So I say if you don't know what you are doing, hit the vet and spend. If you do know how to handle problems, know the outcome of most ailments like this and what the future is for the animal etc....then that is responsible enough for me.
Goats are considered cheap because they are not a major food in this country. If it was it would be right up there next to the ribeye and chicken if it was. The few places you do find it is expensive per pound but I doubt it will ever be readily accepted as table fare for the masses in US.
I know this is a biggie question--take animals to vets or not, but I just mentioned in my post that I don't. I never said you shouldn't...LOL
just my view on it.
- Thread starter
- #58
I understand that, but you have to consider that folks around here believe urinary calculi to be totally incurable. One of the most experienced herdsmen in the state gave my goat 3 to 4 days to live...said he'd never seen one live more than a week after plugging up with UC..FarmerChick said:
That was about a month ago.
Without a doubt, he'd have been right if I'd only done what's normally done around here...which apparently means snipping the pizzle and maybe drenching with some apple cider vinegar.. That's it. That's the only "cure" anybody knows of, and even that's not really expected to work...just a 'hail Mary.'
Things would have stayed that way, too, had I simply taken his experience as gospel and not gone to the vet... As it happens, though, folks -- lots of folks -- are now aware that you absolutely must treat for inflammation right from the get go if you're to have any chance at all of saving the goat..
Folks also know now that the "expensive" vet in town isn't that expensive on goats afterall.. I've seen a few jaws drop when I tell folks that an ultrasound, snipping the pizzle, two catheterizations, four syringes of Ace, four syringes of Ketofen, a whole day in the vet's stall under his care, a pound of ammonium chloride to take home, and a pretty good education on UC cost me all of $137 at the "expensive" vet..
Thing is...now that I've been through all this, it wouldn't have to be nearly so expensive next time around.. I mean, Dex is pretty cheap. Lots of cattle people have Dex on hand. I wouldn't probably have had to use so much NSAID had we started the Dex early, but we didn't know it would become so important... If the Dex is started right away, Banamine would work as the NSAID instead of Ketofen, and lots of folks keep Banamine. Ace helps relax the smooth muscles, which helps...lots of folks have a little stash of Ace. Better perhaps than Ace, though, is dibenzyline...it relaxes the urinary tract specifically, and it's not terribly expensive.. You just have to know to ask for it.. Water soluble ammonium chloride isn't that expensive either, and we have a local source for it..
I dunno...I'd say a week's worth of the treatment with NSAIDs, Dex, and ammonium chloride should cost...what, maybe $20? Pizzle snip is free, if you know how to do it...which I do, now that I helped the vet. I believe I could even catheterize one, if I had to...though knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn't recommend it.
That's my point; "cures" -- even "on the farm cures" -- should evolve, but with everybody using the the same ol' timey remedies and being scared to death to spend a dime to give the vet an opportunity to hone his goat working skills...they don't.
Anyway...I didn't mean to start a debate on it, per se. I know a lot of folks are watching this thread, so I'm going to stop right there so it doesn't get closed or anything..
So I called the vet yesterday and arranged to pick up 5 syringes with 2.5ml/ea of Dexamethasone.. Office was closed when I got there, but they hid them around back for me. Cost was $2/ea, which I'll pay whenever...they don't care. I'd say most of the cost there were the syringes, needles, and someone to fill them. I'm probably going to buy a 50ml of Dex at some point, as it's handy for lots of things (the dreaded listeriosis being one).. I'm also going to see if they would possibly sell me a 50ml of Ketofen, too...that would be pricey, but worth it.
I gave him his first Dex of this series at about 7pm yesterday.. I was up late, so I took them some hay around midnight.. He was really interested in it, and seemed to be dribbling a tad faster. At the very least, he seemed a little brighter.
He's going to get his next one today at around 4pm.. Saturday, I'll probably give it at about 1pm.. Sunday, maybe 10am or so.. Monday, he'll get it at about 7:30am.. I'm sorta retarding the dosing time...dunno why, but my gut tells me that's the thing to do.
We'll see.
ksalvagno
Alpaca Master
I sure hope your little guy pulls through. He seems to be quite the little fighter.
I am very glad you are posting this because it could potentially save a life down the road. While I realize everyone wants to keep their vet bills down, sometimes the vet just has to be called. When you learn something and can take care of it own your own later, all the better. I'm one for trying what I know how to do and then calling the vet if it doesn't work. There have been years when I have learned quite a bit from the vet and my knowledge base keeps growing and growing. Plus it is nice to keep up with current research. Better drugs and treatments for things are happening all the time.
Good luck!
I am very glad you are posting this because it could potentially save a life down the road. While I realize everyone wants to keep their vet bills down, sometimes the vet just has to be called. When you learn something and can take care of it own your own later, all the better. I'm one for trying what I know how to do and then calling the vet if it doesn't work. There have been years when I have learned quite a bit from the vet and my knowledge base keeps growing and growing. Plus it is nice to keep up with current research. Better drugs and treatments for things are happening all the time.
Good luck!
Farmer Kitty
True BYH Addict
ksalvagno said:I sure hope your little guy pulls through. He seems to be quite the little fighter.
I am very glad you are posting this because it could potentially save a life down the road. While I realize everyone wants to keep their vet bills down, sometimes the vet just has to be called. When you learn something and can take care of it own your own later, all the better. I'm one for trying what I know how to do and then calling the vet if it doesn't work. There have been years when I have learned quite a bit from the vet and my knowledge base keeps growing and growing. Plus it is nice to keep up with current research. Better drugs and treatments for things are happening all the time.
Good luck!
