Daggone it...urinary calculi

[cmjust0]

Plus it is nice to keep up with current research. Better drugs and treatments for things are happening all the time.

Yep...Ketofen is a perfect example. I'd never heard of it and didn't really know what it was when the vet gave it. When I researched it, I found that it's just like Banamine but better, because it's much easier on the GI..

Who knew?

 

[cmjust0]

Thanks again, everybody.

 

[momto5lilrascals2angels]

Okay this might sound like a really dumb question as I have never raised goats, but am considering it. Couldn't you add some ACV to the water so that it helps with the calcifications and quite possibly could in turn help with the flow? I know that when my husband had stones it was suggested that he drink some water with acv in it. I also add it to my dog's, chicken's and cat's water so as to help with any uti's or stone problems. As I said I have never raised goats so I do not know if acv would be fine for their water or not. Might be something to look into.
I sure hope Frank pulls through. He obviously is a fighter, maybe you ought to add 'Ali' onto his name.

 

[helmstead]

ACV might well have some preventative properties, but is not nearly strong enough to treat, and IMHO really isn't strong enough to prevent UC, either. The one good thing about ACV is that it isn't going to hurt anything...so when you're throwing the book at an animal you can also throw in the ACV.

 

[momto5lilrascals2angels]

Is this problem common in male goats? We are considering getting two a doe and a buck, but after reading this, I'm really concerned about doing so. I know with any animal you can run into medical problems/issues but not knowing a whole lot about goats, I worry about not being able to care for them properly. Are there any good books out there that talk about the care as well as preventative type measures for various goat ailments, diseases etc?:/

 

[FarmerChick]

Here is info on the problem.


URINARY CALCULI IN GOATS

Urinary Calculi, commonly called known as "Water Belly," is a urinary-tract disease in goats. Urinary Calculi prevents both urination and breeding in males. Female goats can but seldom do contract Urinary Calculi because of the straightness and shortness of their urethra. The twists and turns of the longer male urethra make passing solid particles difficult at best and impossible at worst. Urinary Calculi is a disease that can and does kill goats quickly.

Urinary Calculi is almost always the result of improper feeding by the producer. A proper calcium to phosphorus ratio in feed, hay, and minerals is critical; this ratio should be 2-1/2 to 1. Although the disease is called Urinary Calculi, the real culprit is phosphorus -- specifically too much phosphorus in relation to the amount of calcium in the diet. Feeding too much grain concentrates and/or feeding grain concentrates with an improper calcium-to-phosphorus ratio is a major cause of Urinary Calculi. Overfeeding or improper feeding of grain concentrates causes solid particles to develop in the urine; these solid particles block the flow of urine out of the goat's body, causing great pain, discomfort, and oftentimes death. Producers who have experienced urinary-tract stones themselves will understand the seriousness of and pain associated with this condition.

Besides grain concentrates, there are other factors affecting the calcium-to-phosphous ratio in the goat's diet. If the minerals being fed have the proper calcium-to-phosphorus ratio and the goats are not being fed a diet heavy in grain concentrates, then the producer should have both water and hay tested for mineral content. Many types of hay (Bermuda is one example) are high in phosphorus. Hay fertilized with chicken litter will be even higher in phosphorus levels. Adding calcium carbonate (ground limestone) to goat minerals can help bring the calcium-to-phosphorus ratio back to the 2-1/2 to 1 range. However, it is essential to work with a goat nutritionist to find the right amount of calcium carbonate to add to the mineral mixture to get these ratios on target.

Goats used for show purposes are prone to Urinary Calculi because their owners tend to over-feed them with grain concentrates. Young wethers (castrated males) are especially susceptible to Urinary Calculi. Castration stops both testosterone production and the growth of the urethra. Solid particles cannot pass through a urethra that has not been given the opportunity to grow to its normal diameter. The chance of contracting Urinary Calculi in male show goats can be reduced by not wethering (castrating) them until they are five to six months of age -- giving the diameter of the urethra time to grow. Castration of a goat of this age should be done under sedation by a veterinarian. The addition of hay or some other type of long fiber to the goat's diet is absolutely critical to help avoid Urinary Calculi. This is a big problem with some show-goat producers because they tend to take goats off long fiber and push grain concentrates. This is asking for major Urinary Calculi problems.

Urinary Calculi requires immediate medical attention. This condition will not correct itself and if left untreated, the goat will die. Symptoms of Urinary Calculi include tail twitching in males, restlessness, anxiety, and a "hunched-up" body posture as the goat strains to urinate. Sometimes the producer mis-diagnoses the problem as constipation or bloat because of goat's behavior and body stance. The producer should closely examine any male exhibiting these symptoms. Watch for signs of difficulty with urination.

To examine the penis by extending it out of the urethral shaft, sit the goat on its rump for easier handling and manually work the penis out of the shaft for visual examination. This can be impossible to do in goats wethered very young because the penile shaft may still be adhered to the urethral process -- one more drawback of wethering at a very young age. (A sign of sexual maturity in a buckling is his ability to extend his penis out of the shaft.) Before a male can be catherized to relieve a build-up of urine,the pizzle must be cut off. An experienced producer can do this, but most folks should have this procedure performed by a qualified veterinarian. The pizzle is the "curley-qued" appendage on the end of the penis. Oftentimes the pizzle of a goat with Urinary Calculi is black and crusty in appearance. Removal of the pizzle does not affect breeding ability. If this treatment is unsuccessful, the goat must be taken immediately to a qualified veterinarian; the need for surgery under sedation is likely. If the producer waits too long, surgery won't save the goat. Surgery is no guarantee that the goat can be saved.

Do not force a goat with Urinary Calculi to drink lots of water; if fluids can't leave the body because the exit is blocked, the only alternative is for the bladder to burst. A burst bladder cannot be fixed and is fatal. In many cases within 24 to 48 hours after the onset of Urinary Calculi the untreated goat's bladder will usually burst and the flow of urine into the sub-cutaneous tissues on the underside of the body ("Water Belly") will precede a quick and painful death. Administer Banamine (1 cc per 100 lbs bodyweight daily) for the pain that accompanies Urinary Calculi.

Vets recommend that ammonium chloride be used to treat Urinary Calculi. Ammonium chloride can be purchased in small quantities (four-pound packages) from Pipestone Vet Supply at 1-800-658-2523. Here are the dosing instructions provided to me by a producer who has been successful in using Ammonium chloride to cure Urinary Calculi. Mix the following in 20 cc water and orally drench: One (1) teaspoon Ammonium chloride per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for 2 days, then 1/2 tsp AC per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for the next 3 days, then 1/2 tsp once a day for 3 days, then 1/4 tsp daily as a preventative. Dosages are based upon 75 lb liveweights. Ammonium chloride burns the throat, so stomach tube it into the goat.

Some producers have had good luck using a product called Acid Pack. Regardless of the treatment used, the goat must be taken off all grain concentrates and offered only grass hay, fresh green leaves, and water during this treatment regimen. This is not usually a problem since the goat is so sick that it is struggling to live and isn't interested in eating or drinking. Producers without these products on hand might consider trying -- in the short term until they are obtained -- "Fruit Fresh" from the canning aisle in the grocery store. Again this writer has no personal experience with this product but hears from time to time of producer-reported success using it. Immediate veterinary assistance is highly recommended when Urinary Calculi is suspected.

Occasionally -- very occasionally -- Urinary Calculi may be the result of the mineral content of the water that the goat is drinking. The local county extension office should be able to test the water to determine mineral content. The producer can easily test the pH of the goats' water supply by purchasing a fish-tank testing kit. The water's pH should be neutral (a pH of 7).

The key to avoiding Urinary Calculi is feeding the goat a proper diet. Producers experiencing Urinary Calculi in their goats must change their feeding regimens. Carefully read feed labels for proper calcium-to-phosphorus ratios (2-1/2:1). Some prepared goat feeds contain ammonium chloride in the formulation, but this is no guarantee that Urinary Calculi will be avoided. Most importantly, offer lots of free-choice forage/browse and good-quality grass hay and reduce the amount of grain concentrates being fed. Both the health of your goats and your financial bottom line will improve.

 

[cmjust0]

Okay this might sound like a really dumb question

No such thing.

Couldn't you add some ACV to the water so that it helps with the calcifications and quite possibly could in turn help with the flow?

ACV contains acetic acid, which is produced by fermentation bacteria.. Since the rumen is basically a mini fermentation vat, goats produce tons of acetic acid all on their own.

Lots of folks mix ACV with their goats' water and claim it works because they've never had a case of urinary calculi, but that's difficult to guage. It's like elephant spray for your living room; does it work? Well, I don't see any elephants, so........

I think a lot of it has as much to do with the individual buckling as anything else.. Are they prone to fill up on grain? Do they have a lower baseline body pH? Do they drink less water than most? Is their urethra smaller than normal? Does their sigmoid flexure have an especially weird crook in it? Lots of variables...

We had two bucklings in one pen eating the same hay and grain and drinking the same water...one got UC, the other is fine.

I sure hope Frank pulls through. He obviously is a fighter, maybe you ought to add 'Ali' onto his name.

He's definitely got a hard bark on him..

 

[cmjust0]

Well, he got his last round of Dex today.. Not much change. I started him back on AC drenches a couple days ago, and I did notice that his pee got cloudy...maybe he's breaking down stone again. Who knows..

At this point, my gut tells me that even if he does have a large stone or two that's gonna eventually break down, I think we're probably still looking at permanent, irreversable damage to the urinary tract..

At some point, I've just gotta stop treating and say...OK...whatever happens, happens. So long as he continues eating normally and looking bright, I'll let him be, even if he grunts and strains. I wouldn't want to live that way, but then again, I wouldn't grunt and strain to pee yet simultaneously eating like a horse...which he does pretty often.

I also wouldn't run from one end of my pen to another, which he does when you bring hay to him...he literally gallops over and you can't get the hay set down before he's ripping at it.. That tells me he's still got at least some quality of life.

I'm not a goat; it's hard for me to know what he's going through. For all I know, this could be like a hangnail to a goat..

We'll see.

 

[cmjust0]

Little guy seemed to be dribbling faster last night.. I've been drenching him with ammonium chloride just in case there was a large stone or two still stuck in there, even though I doubted it..

Now that I see faster dribbles, though...could be.

Or, could be a fluke.

 

[momto5lilrascals2angels]

I hope your little fellow will be fine. Obviously he isn't ready to give up yet.