Fencing, high tensile or woven sheep/goat? Also best interior fencing? PermaNet??

[chanceosunshine]

I don't know where you are located, for Anatolians Debra Buckner is in Mesa, Idaho, and my favorite breeder of all time, Erick Conard, is in Leander TX. He has a website with lots of great articles about Anatolian LGDs that he has written over his 35 years of breeding experience and observation of these dogs His dogs are all working dogs in rough hill country, but he has shown them and they quickly became champions. They protect his goats from wild hogs, cougar, coyotes, and any other predator in the southern Texan hill country.

Another thing that I like about Erick is that if you have any worries about your dog's behavior, he wants you to call him immediately so he can help you understand what is going on and fix the problem before it gets out of hand. Since buying y first Anatolian some years ago we have become very good friends, and it always a pleasure to phone him and discuss different behavior I have observed in my dogs. Debra has good working animals and is a good trainer. She lives in a Idaho where her dogs have to protect her sheep and goats against coyotes, cougar, foxes, and bear. I bought my 3rd Anatolian from her - out of a bitch bred by Erick.

Their puppies (and older dogs) are not cheap, but all breeding sires and dams have been x-rayed, and tested for genetic problems and are guaranteed. Erick also chooses puppies for the prospective buyer based on their needs and situations.

If you just want to learn more about LGDs look up Lucky Hit Anatolians and read Erick's articles. They are fascinating and he continues to add to them and change them as he sees differences in training needs, etc.

Thank you. I’m in NW Ohio and moving to NW Pa.
I did check out Erick’s website. I wish I thought we’d have our livestock by the time his pups are to be ready but I think that’s going to be a couple months too early for us.
I do plan to read his articles though. Thank you!

 

[Baymule]

My plan is to build a central alleyway large enough for a truck and trailer or the tractor to access, then have the pasture gates be 10-12' wide into the alley. When open the gates will reach across the alleyway completely to close the alley.

Great idea, but use 16’ gates. Absolutely NO 10’ gates! Too small! I used 12’ gates and a couple of 16’ gates. Sure wished I used 16’ gates everywhere. Turning from the lane into a pasture on a tractor with a 12’ gate will be a tight squeeze. If for any reason you need a truck and trailer in a pasture, then you really need the 16’ gate. Haha, BJ took out the gatepost going from the pipeline into the horse pasture. Truck and trailer, 12’ gate, plus BJ = SMASH!

 

[Ridgetop]

Good advice! I will use that measurement for the drive through alley too. I also plan to have a narrow runway with gates and headlocks for working/sorting the sheep. Scale ad turntable will go in the barn with runway leading to them. So many plans. . . . I wonder if I will get it done before I die? I'm not getting younger unfortunately. lol Other than my mind which I often suspect is becoming more childish by the minute!

 

[Baymule]

If the lane is only 16' wide, it might not be enough turning room. Think tractor plus bush hog, turning from lane through gate. Length of tractor and implements, swing room, etc. At the end of the lane, make a cul-de-sac for turning around. If you are wanting to use the gate to block the lane, you might have to use half a cow panel or something on the other side of the lane. Do you really have to block the lane? If you open what ever pasture gate that you want them in and that is the only open gate, the sheep will graze that pasture. Night time, when you shake a feed can at them, they will race back to the barn, no blocking the lane needed.

 

[Ridgetop]

Use Erick's articles for information. Also call him during the day and talk to him about LGDs. He is a mine of information. He seldom breeds pups anymore, but can put you in touch with people that have his dogs, have done the appropriate testing, and whose training methods he approves, when you are ready to obtain a LGD. Breeding puppies is a labor of love for him, not a business.

He is worth talking to extensively just for information about LGDs, how they think and work, best ways to train, etc. If you decide on an Anatolian he prefers to give information on the breed, training peculiarities (every breed has some), and temperaments before any prospective Anatolian buyer gets one. He wants to make sure that an Anatolian would suit the potential owner. Not all people are suited to Anatolians, nor are all Anatolians suited to all people. His goal is the suitability of the dog to the owners and situation. Erick prefers real working homes, but occasionally has a pup that would make a suitable home/family guardian. He will conduct extensive in depth phone interviews about your willingness to learn how to train and work your LGD before making a decision to place one of his dogs with you. He is never too busy to talk to you about any problems you are having with any of his pups or dogs and will work with you on how to train the dog properly. However, he will take the dog back if it does not work out or you find you cannot train the dog properly. Some breeders either are not willing to do that, or don't know how to help with training problems.

He occasionally has adult trained dogs he needs to place as well. Some of them are pups he has taken back because the owners were unable to keep them or were not training properly. He retrains them but since he breeds so rarely anymore he cannot keep everyone. One of the reasons he has limited him breeding program so drastically is because he wants to keep all the dogs he produces. LOL I cannot say enough good things about Erick and his knowledge of the breed.

Although we had many Pyrs over the years, the reputation of the Anatolian's sharpness f temperament made me leery of getting our first one. The first imported Anatolians in the 60's through 80's had "sharp" temperaments. "Sharp" is dog breeder speak for aggressive, and in some cases vicious, temperaments. The early training of LGD ownership had owners tossing their LGDs into a large pasture range and leaving them completely alone with no human socialization. Owners were warned that bonding with their dogs by petting them and becoming acquainted with them would lead to the dogs not doing their job through not bonding with the flock or herd. Naturally this was ridiculous since all LGD breeds derive from canine guardians who accompanied their masters as they wandered in search of grazing. These dogs lived with and were close companions of those early shepherds and their families. They were guardians of both the flocks and the people from dangerous predators, both animal and human.

Since then Anatolian temperament has been softened by breeding out the more aggressive strains. This is good in many ways since those still used in Turkey are expected to attack any danger to their flocks including human thieves. Here that would not work due to litigious criminals who enjoy suing victims for injuries suffered during crimes. Consequently Anatolian temperament has become much softer, and easier for today's ranchers. However, they are still one of the sharper LGD breeds out there and if you desire strangers to be able to access your property safely you will need to socialize your puppy heavily.

Or do as we do and fence with a high perimeter with deadbolt on the gates. Since we are somewhat secluded on a private road surrounded by 100 open acres, are technically in Los Angeles, and are gradually seeing more and more break ins in our area, we prefer to fence ourselves and our dogs in. For the first 25 years we lived here we did not even have a lock on our doors! Now we live behind 7' fences and locked gates. Part of this is because of our sheep, dogs, and coyote/cougar predators. But I don't deny that at 70 years young I appreciate the dogs and fences as a first line of defense.

 

[chanceosunshine]

This is exactly the type of breeder we would want and need. Once we have come to a decision about getting a LGD, I may just reach out and see if he thinks the Anatolian would be a good option for us. We need someone this passionate about his dogs to help us make the right decision in the end.

We are concerned about the aggressiveness of the LGD, in general. We've been weighing our decisions regarding them on all the circumstances we have to deal with, just like most people do. One of our considerations is my adult nephew that has autism. He visits the farm daily. It would be simple to just have the pup get acclimated to J-bird, but he's afraid of dogs, and his dad doesn't like dogs and his mom is "animal ignorant" even though she does like them. So, we are in a quandary right now.

Just exactly how high a fence would keep most LGDs in? And did someone recommend electric at the top?

Use Erick's articles for information. Also call him during the day and talk to him about LGDs. He is a mine of information. He seldom breeds pups anymore, but can put you in touch with people that have his dogs, have done the appropriate testing, and whose training methods he approves, when you are ready to obtain a LGD. Breeding puppies is a labor of love for him, not a business.

He is worth talking to extensively just for information about LGDs, how they think and work, best ways to train, etc. If you decide on an Anatolian he prefers to give information on the breed, training peculiarities (every breed has some), and temperaments before any prospective Anatolian buyer gets one. He wants to make sure that an Anatolian would suit the potential owner. Not all people are suited to Anatolians, nor are all Anatolians suited to all people. His goal is the suitability of the dog to the owners and situation. Erick prefers real working homes, but occasionally has a pup that would make a suitable home/family guardian. He will conduct extensive in depth phone interviews about your willingness to learn how to train and work your LGD before making a decision to place one of his dogs with you. He is never too busy to talk to you about any problems you are having with any of his pups or dogs and will work with you on how to train the dog properly. However, he will take the dog back if it does not work out or you find you cannot train the dog properly. Some breeders either are not willing to do that, or don't know how to help with training problems.

He occasionally has adult trained dogs he needs to place as well. Some of them are pups he has taken back because the owners were unable to keep them or were not training properly. He retrains them but since he breeds so rarely anymore he cannot keep everyone. One of the reasons he has limited him breeding program so drastically is because he wants to keep all the dogs he produces. LOL I cannot say enough good things about Erick and his knowledge of the breed.

Although we had many Pyrs over the years, the reputation of the Anatolian's sharpness f temperament made me leery of getting our first one. The first imported Anatolians in the 60's through 80's had "sharp" temperaments. "Sharp" is dog breeder speak for aggressive, and in some cases vicious, temperaments. The early training of LGD ownership had owners tossing their LGDs into a large pasture range and leaving them completely alone with no human socialization. Owners were warned that bonding with their dogs by petting them and becoming acquainted with them would lead to the dogs not doing their job through not bonding with the flock or herd. Naturally this was ridiculous since all LGD breeds derive from canine guardians who accompanied their masters as they wandered in search of grazing. These dogs lived with and were close companions of those early shepherds and their families. They were guardians of both the flocks and the people from dangerous predators, both animal and human.

Since then Anatolian temperament has been softened by breeding out the more aggressive strains. This is good in many ways since those still used in Turkey are expected to attack any danger to their flocks including human thieves. Here that would not work due to litigious criminals who enjoy suing victims for injuries suffered during crimes. Consequently Anatolian temperament has become much softer, and easier for today's ranchers. However, they are still one of the sharper LGD breeds out there and if you desire strangers to be able to access your property safely you will need to socialize your puppy heavily.

Or do as we do and fence with a high perimeter with deadbolt on the gates. Since we are somewhat secluded on a private road surrounded by 100 open acres, are technically in Los Angeles, and are gradually seeing more and more break ins in our area, we prefer to fence ourselves and our dogs in. For the first 25 years we lived here we did not even have a lock on our doors! Now we live behind 7' fences and locked gates. Part of this is because of our sheep, dogs, and coyote/cougar predators. But I don't deny that at 70 years young I appreciate the dogs and fences as a first line of defense.

 

[Ridgetop]

The height of fence depends on where you live and what your neighborhood is like. Are you surrounded by open fields with other livestock (cattle) or do you live in a semi rural neighborhood or horse keeping suburb? It also depends on how secure you want your fence to hold your dogs. I am a fanatic about keeping my dogs on my property. I want them here guarding my stock not guarding the neighbor's. Also remember in the country that your LGD can be mistaken for a marauder on your neighbor's property. Loose dogs are just as destructive as coyotes and are considered predators to be shot. Back in the early LGD days (90's) one rancher bought an expensive LGD and turned him in with his sheep. He didn't think to notify the neighbors. That night he got a call from his neighbor telling him that he had seen a loose dog in with the sheep, but not to worry since he had shot it!

As far s height I would not fence with any fence shorter than 6'. However, depending on the existing fence around your property you might be able tp extend your fence higher without much trouble and expense.

First you should know that chain link is not a good fence for any livestock application. Horses, cattle, and larger animals will rub on the fence and stretch it out of shape. They will lean on the posts and bend them or break them. Sheep and goats will jump on the fence as well as rubbing on it and causing the chain link to sag and stretch out of shape. Eventually the bottom of chain link will roll up allowing animals to enter and leave the property. So whatever you do, do not use chain link to fence your property.

Woven wire fencing is the best to use, high tensile if possible. Remember to stretch the wire as tight as possible, and brace your corner posts. Baymule has a good fence building post here on BYH. Most

Woven wire only comes as high as 4' or 5' though. If you use taller posts you can add another width of wire above the first run and make a fence 6' to 7' tall. A cheaper option is to fence the bottom 5' with woven wire and then string barbed wire or hot wires on the top bringing the fence to the 6' or 7' height. There are lots of good inexpensive solar chargers out there for fencing.

Don't forget to secure the bottom of the fence with either barbed wire or a hot wire to prevent predators digging in or your dogs digging out. One of our dogs (Not one of our Anatolians) was a digger and delighted in escaping from the fenced 6 acres. What made this worse is that our land is very steep and the dog would dig out along the lower edges so we had to climb into a steep ravine to repair these holes. After constantly filling in the holes with rocks and timbers, we finally took some old chain link and attached short lengths to the bottom of the fences on the inside, laying them a few feet inside the fences along the ground. We covered them with dirt. Over the years brush and grass have rooted and we have an almost dig proof fence now.

If you get a young dog and introduce him to your autistic nephew you should not have any problem since the boy comes over every day. Oddly enough, most dogs will identify human disabilities such as autism, mental retardation, and physical disabilities just as they identify babies and small children as needing more help and protection.

On the flip side most dogs will also identify persons that are drunk or high as dangerous since their actions and odor is not normal.

You will have to work with J-bird yourselves with the dog Have him sit quietly in a chair while introducing him to the dog or pup. Let the dog see that you love and care for J-bird. If his father doesn't like dogs, and his mother is afraid of dogs, you need to do this introduction without them present The dog will identify the father's dislike and the mother's fear as danger to you or J-bird. In some cases if the LGD interprets the father's dislike and mother's fear as dangerous to J-bird, the dog will try to protect J-bird from his parents - or what the dog sees as their danger to the young man.

This came home to us (finally) when attempting to train Bubba (sharp tempered male Anatolian) to new lambs in the barn. Our family was excited about these births and would all rush into the barn to check the lambs, and ewe. This excitement convinced Bubba that something was wrong in the barn. Since mama ewe was upset about the commotion and tried to butt Bubba through the bars of the jugs, Bubba decided that the mamas were dangerous to us and the lambs. He would snap at them and try to drive them from their lambs.

Naturally this caused more uproar as we al shouted at Bubba. The louder the noise level and more upset we were getting, the more convinced he was that there was great danger in the barn. Rika finally came into the barn and attacked Bubba, driving him out of the barn and sitting between him and the barn doors to keep him out. The disgust on her face towards bubba was probably also directed at us too.

Bubba's "bad" behavior at lambing time continued for several lambing cycles until one year only I bothered to go into the barn when the ewes lambed. I noticed that Bubba was perfectly calm. Then a ewe wasn't in the barn before lambing, she lambed early in the big pasture. Worried, we rushed to "rescue" the lamb and mama from Bubba who was also in that pasture. What a surprise to find him completely calm, guarding the new lamb a shirt distance as mom delivered her second lamb! As the first lamb staggered toward mama Bubba did a short circle around all 3 to check on them and then wandered off to patrol the field.

After considering how we had been reacting to his behavior we realized we were to blame. Instead of softly talking Bubba down from his excitement at new lambs, we had escalated the situation by shouting at him until he thought he needed to protect the lambs and us from the ewes!
Us bad.

Now when seeing an "odd" behavior we consider what it might be. we usually can explain the behavior and that gives us the info we need to either redirect it or encourage it. These dogs really think and you have to be able to interpret what they are thinking as they act. Smarter than us sometimes!

When you are ready for an LGD, Erick can help you find one near your location if he doesn't have a litter expected. (Most of his pups are reserved in advance.) He won't recommend any breeder that is not good, has poor stock, or that doesn't train properly. He is planning 3 litters between now and the end of 2022. He is breeding that many because he has not bred any in the past few years due to ill health. He has a waiting list of several years for his pups he has to fill! LOL.

 

[Bruce]

If his father doesn't like dogs, and his mother is afraid of dogs, you need to do this introduction without them present

X2! Part of the boy's fear of dogs is likely channeling his parents reactions to them.

 

[Baymule]

Excellent explanation @Ridgetop! I will add, in dealing with LGDs, do not expect your "normal dog" behavior. In the above situation with Bubba, Ridgetop and family threw everything they had painstakingly learned over the years out the window and put their own thoughts and emotions on Bubba's behavior. Just goes to show you, even an expert can misinterpret a LGD. No offense Ridgetop! These dogs are so smart, they keep us on our toes, just to keep up.

Yes they do protect children. A neighbor was over here one day with her 3 year old son. She began to scold him, my dog walked between them and growled softly at her. I called him down, but she thought it was marvelous that my dog was protecting her child, even from her!

In order to better understand your dog, think from his point of view. That will take a while to understand and I don't know if we ever fully comprehend these outstanding dogs. If you listen, they will talk to you.

 

[Ridgetop]

So right! These dogs are very complicated thinkers with fascinating behavior. Bubba was a great lesson to us to always check our behavior before assuming the dog is not working right.