FF refusing to let kid nurse, UPDATE she's nursing on her own! Yay!!

[savingdogs]

I am fairly new to goat breeding but I have a FF that was much the same. Two months later, she adores the little rascal. The mom that butted her baby away lifts her leg to pull it out of the way so he can ram her udder.

 

[cmjust0]

I had a FF this year who not only walked off after kidding, but actually *flipped* her baby end over end with her horns everytime the poor lil doeling got close to her. Whether she went for mama's front end, back end, middle, legs -- didn't matter. She *hated* that baby.

Perhaps this isn't most folks' protocol, but I beat the FF senseless until she was basically afraid to move, then pinned her against the wall, and let the baby nurse.. After a few times, she kinda 'got' that the baby nursing actually made her feel *better* and took to her like white on rice.

Kid's about 6wks now -- huge -- and there have been many times when I've seen her not-so-large mama stretch out and call to her to get her to come nurse when she gets a lil tight.. It's funny cos the "baby" is fully autonomous at this point and could survive on forage with no problem, and she literally has to cram her way up under mama and often lifts mama's whole hind end off the ground as she punches, but mama still calls to her..

 

[20kidsonhill]

I had a FF this year who not only walked off after kidding, but actually *flipped* her baby end over end with her horns everytime the poor lil doeling got close to her. Whether she went for mama's front end, back end, middle, legs -- didn't matter. She *hated* that baby.

Perhaps this isn't most folks' protocol, but I beat the FF senseless until she was basically afraid to move, then pinned her against the wall, and let the baby nurse.. After a few times, she kinda 'got' that the baby nursing actually made her feel *better* and took to her like white on rice.

Kid's about 6wks now -- huge -- and there have been many times when I've seen her not-so-large mama stretch out and call to her to get her to come nurse when she gets a lil tight.. It's funny cos the "baby" is fully autonomous at this point and could survive on forage with no problem, and she literally has to cram her way up under mama and often lifts mama's whole hind end off the ground as she punches, but mama still calls to her..

I can't beleive you are admitting to that. We head-shooted a doe for an entire week once to get her to take one of her babies, when she decided she wanted only one and not two. yes, it did work. she had just enough room to get up and lay down and we put the food and water right in front of her.

Just between you and me, I might have, on occasion, had to convince a doe to knock it off. But I am not admitting to anything.

 

[Chirpy]

As stated you actually have an excellent chance at getting these two bonded and the baby nursing by herself since momma is allowing the baby near her. Keep working with them as you are... Three weeks ago I pulled a baby the first night and brought her into the house to bottle feed her for the first 24 hours as momma was trying to kick her and the baby was shivering too much so I was worried about the health and safety of the baby. (Momma hadn't raised a baby before - her kids had been pulled in the past. She liked the baby but didn't want it near her udder.) But, the next day I took the baby back out to momma and held momma while 'helping' baby find the teat. (It actually helped in my case to let the baby suck on my finger; which was next to the teat; and then gently switch the mouth over to the teat. Once the baby figured out that the teat actually gave her a yummy reward she didn't need my finger to help get her started. It took three times for her to really get it on her own.)

Each time we held momma it got easier (it took two of us the first 2 or 3 times) and by the end of the first day I just had to set my hand on momma and she would allow the baby to nurse. Since momma hadn't tried to kick the baby since early that morning I left them together 24/7 from that point on and both are doing great. We watched them all day to make sure there was no more aggression from mom toward baby -- there wasn't. Momma just needed to figure out how it worked; I just encouraged her quietly and gently all day.

 

[cmjust0]

I can't beleive you are admitting to that.

We head-shooted a doe...

There were times when I wanted to head-shoot this one too, but when I say 'head-shoot' I mean 'shoot-in-the-head'..

Just between you and me, I might have, on occasion, had to convince a doe to knock it off. But I am not admitting to anything.

They're so rough with each other...I figure all I'm really doing is speaking their language when I lay into one like that.

 

[20kidsonhill]

I sold a red 75% boer/nubain doe last week for 50bucks to an experienced farmer(38year sheep and goats). She was here buying a couple other better goats. I hate that goat, and we were going to get around to loading her on the truck and taking her to the auction and just never got it done.

My husband said,"What were you thinking, you could have gotten 85 or 90 for her in the stockyards." I reminded him this doe is half deer, wild as can be, extremely dangerous to handle, and the auction charges several dollars a head to handle them(probably charge us double or triple to handle this one).

She had her first set of kids a couple weeks ago, and I swear she would have been stew meat if she abandoned her kids. You can't do anything with her, You can't get near her, she jumps anything under 4 feet and all our kidding pens are only 3 feet. I said, "If she drops those kids on the ground and walks away from them, I am getting the gun out and shooting her."

Lucky for her she had good maternal instincts, went up in the field and had them in 30 degree weather, but then bit at me when I tried to pick one of them up and followed me to the barn and into a kidding pen and stayed in the 3 foot high pen for 3 days with them, until I let them out.

She screams constantly for the babies. She is so loud, You will be out there doing chores and if you get in between her and the kids, she will let out this horrible scream. She has scared me half to death a couple of times. She is always screaming at those kids, trying to get them to follow her and fussing over them. "I HATE THAT GOAT"

Yup I sold her for 50 bucks to an experienced farmer who knows what they are getting themselves into. God Bless them.

 

[Araylee]

LOL you guys are so funny! I'm hoping not to have to beat my goat up in order to get her to feed her kid!
But, so far, it's been a 4x daily pin-mom-down battle! She lets her nurse one side fairly easily, but the other side must be extra tender or something, because she kicks and jumps when baby goes for that side! URGH! I am tired of holding that doe to the wall. Also, I'm not sure how long to let baby nurse for. I don't want to overfeed her and her mom is from production lines, and since she's a single kid I'm not going to be surprised if she is making more than her baby needs. Do I let her nurse one side until she pops off? Both sides? Until her tummy feels like it's going to burst??

 

[20kidsonhill]

Let her nurse as long as she wants, when she isn't interested she is full.

I am sorry the mom isn't giving in, I am sure it is very very frustrating.

IF you had said the mom is showing no interest in the baby, not cleaning it, wont talk to it, wont let her come near her at all. I would have suggested pulling her and bottle feeding her. Since you feel it is a personal space issue with the udder and she just doesn't want baby to touch the udder and is still paying attention to the baby, I still think there is hope. Is she still talkign to the baby and loving on it? Is she laying near the baby or on the opposite side of the pen?

If you leave them out, a good mom wont even walk out of the pen right away, would never walk away from baby with out checking on her and letting the baby know she is going to the hay manger to much, and the mom will come runnign back talking to the baby often to check on her.

You could give it another 24 to 48 hours and then let the pen open and sit back and watch and see if she is showing in maternal instincts. At that point if she just walks away and doesn't come back lookin for the baby it is a done deal, and you will need to decide to just bottle feed or to keep pinning mom to the pen probably for the next 6 to 8 weeks.

 

[Araylee]

Thanks 20kids, that helps.
Mom has never talked to her kid. I never even heard "mommy voice" when she was in labor and with the early baby stage. She licks it occasionally and lets it come close to her front end. She leaves her for long periods to go eat hay at the other end of the pen (35 feet or so from the shelter?) and baby will maaaaah for her and she doesn't act like she hears her. (We have two alfalfa feeders, the one IN the shelter, and the other one on the opposite corner that is SUPPOSED to be set up for the doe that broke her leg, so she doesn't get beat up by momma!) She tolerates her kid, but it seems that's pretty well the extent of it. I can't see inside the pen from the house but I think that's where she lays when chewing her cud. She's been outside a lot today, rubbing on the fence, climbing the play structure, eating alfalfa. Baby was out w/ mom for 5 minutes but otherwise is alone in the shed. We had planned on doing the "fias co farm" method of letting baby nurse during the day, separating kids from moms at night, and then milking in the morning, thus allowing us to leave on occasional overnight camping trips. This definitely puts a kink in things-I can't leave a nursing baby alone with a mom who won't feed it, and I can't exactly take her with us.
I guess I could plan on milking her out morning and night for 8 weeks, bottle feeding, and then drying her up after that. Shouldn't miss too much camping that way.
...Anybody take their goat camping with them?? I've thought about loading everybody up in a small stock trailer, having them all sleep in there at night, and letting them munch on forest goodies during the day. Is that completely mad??

I'm giving her through the weekend. If she doesn't start to "get it" by then, I'm going to start milking her out. Hopefully the kid isn't so used to nursing that she wont take a bottle!

Thanks for the help! I'd thought she was bonded "enough" but given what you said is normal I'm thinking not.

 

[savingdogs]

I can see us camping like that. Our goats do not leave us however and when we free range them here they do not wander away.

I would think the difficulty would be transporting the goats to where you are going without it being a big hassle. But if you camp close by, perhaps that isn't an issue. I think it would be fun to camp with goats, but you had better have somewhere to put them at night for predators (trailer?).