Food Aggression? Update: Going from Bad to Worse! (post #5)

[Bunnylady]

I feed the horses at a nearby barn several times a week. That's all I do there, feed and turnout. I get along well with most of the horses there, but there is one that is becoming a problem.

This mare is about 4 years old. She was being turned out with a group of horses, but seemed to be forever getting banged up out there, so her owner doesn't want her out with other horses any more. She is stalled during the day. There is a small paddock on the side of the barn that her stall opens onto, and she is allowed to wander in and out of it at night.

Putting feed in this mare's stall is not an issue, because I can reach her feeder over the wall from the aisle. The hay rack is another story. To get to it, I have to walk across the stall, with this mare trying to grab at the hay the whole way. I have to walk beside her body to leave the stall, and the last two days, she has threatened to kick me as I was leaving. Two days ago, she threatened to kick as I walked across the stall to open the outside door.

I see this as a respect issue. If she were my horse, I would know how to deal with this; the lessons would start well outside of that stall. As it is, I have no business removing the horse from the stall, what can I do to make it safe for me to be in the stall with her?

 

[the funny farm6615]

i would report this to the barn owner and her owner. it sounds like they will be the ones who will have the say so on how and what will be done. be careful and good luck!

 

[Ariel301]

It should be the responsibility of the owner to train the mare so that she is not a problem. I had a food-aggressive mare, and they can get downright dangerous, mine kicked a few people (myself included) walking into her area with food. If the horse is acting dangerously when you enter the stall, then you should not enter that stall. The owner needs to be notified, and if they will not correct the behavior, the horse either should not be there, or the owner should be the one to feed it, or an alternative should be figured out--instead of the feeder, maybe the hay could just be dropped on the ground either in her corral or just inside the stall door so she is not given the opportunity to hurt someone.

Here is how I trained my food-aggressive horse. I would enter the stall or pen she was in with a bucket containing a little food and and a dressage or lunge whip. When she would come towards the food with her aggressive attitude and ears back, I would give her a good smack with the whip and drive her away from the food (as you would send a horse away in the roundpen--which would be a good place for this mare to start, to learn to be moved around by people and to learn respect) She would not be allowed to approach the food unless her ears were up and she was showing submission. Then, I taught her to stand aside while I filled the feeder, and then when I called her to eat, she would approach with her "happy face" and get to eat. If she came with her "mean face" she got sent out again by the whip until she came correctly. And she was not allowed to eat without permission to do so. It does take time to train a horse like this though, and patience. And not getting enough exercise can make it worse--if the mare is being kept in her stall and small pen most of the time with not enough riding or turnout, she is probably very frustrated and bored, and acting out on that.

 

[abooth]

Could you just feed her the hay at the front of her stall? You know, just open the door and toss it in a front corner on the floor? Or do they insist on her eating from a hay rack. Or could you throw a lead rope on her so you could at least control her head while you put the hay back there?

 

[Bunnylady]

Well, I more or less managed to deal with the hay-in-the-stall issue. She no longer turns her backside to me in the stall, though I usually manage to work it out so I don't have to go into the stall at all when she's in there. This horse is owned by a 14-year-old girl with non-horsey parents who quite frankly is scared to death of her.

The mare is now being turned out with a few other horses, in a pasture close enough to the barn that the interactions between the horses are more likely to be observed. As I suspected, the damage that this horse has been showing is at her own instigation. She will pick another horse in the pasture (apparently at random), approach them, swap ends, and just kick and kick and kick. She pinned the gelding that has been #1 out there against a tree and just waled the stuffing out of him a couple of days ago. Climbing the dominance ladder I can understand, but this seems unnecessarily brutal! The horse has some leg issues, and is on pain meds, but I still don't see how that could account for her level of violence.

Lately, the horse has escalated to yet a new level. She has begun getting really pushy at the gate leading to the barn. She attacks other horses being led or ridden in or out, and will even threaten the people doing the leading and riding. She had a go at me a couple of evenings ago, not just crowding and pushing, but spinning and kicking at me (I was leading another horse in at the time, the other horse quickly left the scene of conflict!). It was quite clear that she had decided that she was getting through that gate, and nothing I could do or say was going to stop her! She did get into the barn; after a pretty intense argument in the barn aisle, I managed to get her to back down, and let me catch her. I put her right back out in the pasture, because I don't want her thinking that such behavior will get her what she wants. She was pretty ticked off, and ran around for quite a while as I brought the horses in from another pasture. When they were all in and she had calmed down, I brought her in.

Does anyone have any ideas what would make a horse act like this? We have had pushy horses before, but not to this degree. I think the girls will probably start driving her away from the gate with a lunge whip to get other horses in or out, but that doesn't really address her attacks on the other animals she is pastured with. Can pain really make her not merely cranky, but bordering on vicious?

 

[patandchickens]

And the barn owner *allows* this??? At a *boarding barn*???? <scratches head> (Just a side comment, nothing in *your* control)

Hard to say without being there to see it in person. I do believe, from some things I've seen, that pain can make some horses a bit attack-y and apt to overdo their reactions. OTOH, that would not be my first guess, unless whatever her problem is is really *serious*.

My first guess would be that this may be a horse who was weaned young and raised relatively alone (or with one or a few very, very easygoing happy-to-be-low-man horses) and has never properly learned her horse manners. And clearly hasn't been taught people manners either, nor is *likely* to be if she's owned by a kid who's afraid of her.

Horses like that can be a real problem. They can really injure other horses (and people), and the only semi-effective way I know of to "retrain" them is to put 'em on turnout with an even badder kickier horse somewhere with very high, very solid and very safe fences! (Meaning not just a random rogue, but a serious professional alpha mare). The difficulty is that this is not 100% safe for either party, and sometimes it can go badly wrong and you have to call the vet or dig a hole. OTOH I don't honestly know of much else that WORKS with horses whose lack of early socialization has made them sort of the horse version of sociopathic. Sometimes they can gradually work things out with the rest of the herd if they are in a VERY VERY LARGE field. I had a horse once who was a bit "socially disadvantaged" that way, and he got somewhat better when turned out with a herd containing several VERY dominant and physical horses in a 100-acre pasture. It's not a guarantee though; I've also seen it *not* help, or horses get hurt despite having plenty of space to get away.

To be honest, I have a real problem with horses with this kind of behavior. They can do serious permanent damage to people and horses. Unless one is willing to undertake the "alpha mare cure" and it actually *works*, IMO they belong either in a *professionally run* barn on solo turnout; or at the owner's backyard barn if the owner is willing and capable of dealing with it. NOT at a boarding barn with random people around (barn help, boarders, family, etc) or being turned out with other peoples' horses. Hate to see it, but seen it go badly too many times.

That's assuming it *is* lack of learning to be a horse. (Not *all* undersocialized horses act like that, by any means, of course; I think it depends on the horse's native personality). As I say, that would be my first guess, but other possibilities to consider would be a cystic ovary (especially if she is very dramatic when she goes into heat, and/or displays suggestions of back or abdominal pain), or heaven forbid a brain tumor. I would not think either of those especially likely though; nor would I think that "crabbiness from pain" is that likely either, frankly, unless she was little miss perfect until her leg problems began.

Oh, one other thought -- pain meds can cause stomach ulcers, stomach ulcers can cause crabbiness and overreactivity.

Really it sounds like this horse, if she is as much of a menace as you describe, needs to have a FULL vet workup in hopes of finding something fixable, before she does something to someone that cannot be undone :/

Best of luck, don't get yourself hurt,

Pat

 

[Bunnylady]

Horses like that can be a real problem. They can really injure other horses (and people), and the only semi-effective way I know of to "retrain" them is to put 'em on turnout with an even badder kickier horse somewhere with very high, very solid and very safe fences! (Meaning not just a random rogue, but a serious professional alpha mare).

How about an alpha gelding?

Believe it or not, I made a similar suggestion just last night, after this mare bullied her way past three teens trying to lead/ride a pony in after a lesson. We have a bulldog-type QH that was gelded late (he supposedly has some offspring out there somewhere), and he has quite a 'tude. He's actually not too bad if the other horses just stay out of his way, but believe me, nobody messes with this dude! I've seen the results (twice) of geldings that didn't understand this, and it wasn't pretty. Nothing that required surgery or stitches, but the other horse looked like he'd been in a knife fight! [Unfortunately, this horse also knocks down fences and kicks open barn doors ] He's usually OK with mares, but I couldn't see him taking what this girl dishes out for one moment. But yeah, he could also do some serious damage; we know that a little too well. Another "studly" gelding we had a couple of years ago wound up kicking a pony so badly, it had to be put down. Fortunately, both of the horses in that incident were the owner's, so there were no financial repercussions (though plenty of heartache).

- pain meds can cause stomach ulcers, stomach ulcers can cause crabbiness and overreactivity.

We had been thinking about this, too. She is on an ulcer preventative, in addition to the Bute, but I suppose it is possible that the dosage could be too low to do the job. She doesn't show the classic symptoms of ulcers, but that is hardly conclusive.

The funny thing about this horse is her Jekyll-and-Hyde behavior. She's not hard to halter at all, and once you have a halter on her, she minds beautifully. She is usually equally good with just a lead rope looped around her neck, too, not even "mouthy" like a few I could mention. This attitude seems almost to come out of nowhere. As I have said, I really try to like this horse, and it seems like every time I get to the point where I think I do, she has to pull something that puts her in the doghouse with me again!

 

[patandchickens]

We have a bulldog-type QH that was gelded late (he supposedly has some offspring out there somewhere), and he has quite a 'tude. He's actually not too bad if the other horses just stay out of his way, but believe me, nobody messes with this dude!

Yup, sometimes the right male horse can deliver the lessons too. But you would not want to do it with someone else's horse, or without the mare owner's consent, IMHO. Because of the legitimate risks.

Truly it sounds to me like something to pass to the barn manager/owner for them to decide about. A lot of places will not have a horse like that around, or if they do, will require individual turnout. It is a difficult situation. (Difficult too from the owners' perspective, of course).

What exactly leg problems does she have?


Pat

 

[goodhors]

Can the mare just be turned out alone? Owner may need to consider paying more, because horse is so difficult to deal with. Kid doesn't sound like SHE is having any fun with her!

Sorry, for something like this, we back up, get a tool, to keep from getting hurt. The tool of choice for this, would be a driving whip, 6ft stick, 24" lash. I want to "reach out and touch her" without being in reach. She bulls her way in, she gets backed up. Harsh? Yes it is. Then you look at the damage she has caused with horses jumping out of her way, fences, gates, PEOPLE, getting slammed about. Mare has totally NO RESPECT for anything in her way!

You have to back her up, get her attention, THEN she has to GIVE SPACE when asked!! You the person, can't bite or kick her as Alpha horse would, so whip becomes your teeth and hooves. Probably the first couple times, you just whack her wherever you can land a smack. Whips make a LOT of noise when swung hard, gets her attention, up to HER to move back when given a voice command!! I would start this with her ALONE in the round pen if you have one, for the TALL FENCE. Even her alone in a paddock. She must back up from the whip, because she WILL ignore your voice trying to get out the gate. You do not want other horses running from her, adding to the panic feeling, hurting you or getting in your way of the whip.

I am not interested in her psyche, deep seated reasons for bad, she is DANGEROUS if left to continue this behaviour!! Each time she runs out, she is the WINNER, encouraged to try even HARDER to succeed in her next bad action. You still have to deal with her DAILY, so she needs to GET OVER IT.

Maybe you have some GOOD local Cowboy types, who could come over, give you some other ideas than mine. The better ones will cost more, but probably have a bigger bag of tricks that won't damage her. The mare needs SOMETHING done FAST.

The whip method is usually very quick, especially with the SMART horse. You MUST protect yourself and other people in dealing with her. You have to teach her about your "personal space" and how she can't invade without punishment! She is actually coming off easier than if that bad Alpha horse cleaned her clock for her!!

The longer whip and added lash length keeps you out of reach, easier to hit what you aim at. I suggest a driving whip because they are fairly light to handle, cart around. Not too expensive if you shop around. This lady sells some nice whips, fairly cheap. Tell her what you need it for, want cheap. Just have to add $10 for shipping in the tube to prevent breakage.

http://www.countrycarriagesusa.com/bitswhipspads.html

We have fixed a number of pasture problems, gate crowders, young and stupid, all who did not give people SPACE when asked. Again, SMART horse only needs a little work, though you may need to carry the whip to prevent training failure if she is not thinking.

Horse needs to be stopped in her tracks, think of others besides herself.

Our new filly came from paddock keeping in groups. Evidently her size helped her intimidate the others. As said, she would pick one, run over, swing around and throw a couple heels. She tried EVERY HORSE we have!! The horses here were QUITE surprised the first time!! However they only paused a moment, and then went right after her!! A couple ACTUTALLY picked her up by the withers and shook her!! Then they ran her off around the field. She might been big in her field, but she is the littlest thing we have. With the old mare, she gave her the evil eye, bent an ear, and the filly moved AWAY wthout kicking out.

Filly is finally getting some hair on the bald spots, patches of her coat received since arrival. She now has a pretty good attitude about it, but the geldings especially, have a pecking order and she is LOW. One (15yrs) LOVES his mom, is protective of her, so filly gets double if she tries anything near his Mom!! We mix and move the horses around all the time, keeps them from being silly if another is taken away to work. Being Driving horses, they really are not kickers, more bite like ALLIGATORS! They do share hay piles, bump around without severe upset happening in the groups. They MUST get along to drive together, so filly will be even more NICE when hitched after training. Right now she is just growing up. Except for the kicky part, she has been lovely to handle, deal with, only 3yrs old. We can fix the kicking. Looks to be a good one for the future.

 

[Bunnylady]

before she does something to someone that cannot be undone :/

We came soooo close to this point, a couple of evenings ago! A large pony was standing at the gate, this mare decided she wanted to be there. She pushed the pony away, spun and kicked and backed and kicked, landing two solid-sounding whacks before the pony cleared out, on three legs The pony's owner was called, she found the pony sore on both hind legs, but no major damage. The night before this pony was to be shipped to a prospective buyer on trial, too! The mare's owner was almost tearfully apologetic. Poor kid, she tries so hard; what ground manners this mare has are largely due to her efforts.

When I arrived for this evening's feeding, there was a lunge whip leaning against the fence near the gate, the other horses were hanging around the gate, and this mare was wa-ay over yonder by the water trough. This mare may be many things, but she ain't stupid! The barn owner told me that we are now going to put this mare on solo turnout in the arena during the day. This isn't a perfect solution, because the arena is supposed to have other uses, but it will save the wear and tear on the other horses.

What exactly leg problems does she have?

I wasn't privy to the conversation with the Vet, what little I know is something like third-hand information. This horse has very upright pasterns, and pretty small feet for an animal her size. The Vet seems to think the problem has something to do with the navicular. Even with the Bute, this mare is often head-bobbing lame on one or the other front legs after a little romp around the pasture. The family are looking into other options, including corrective shoeing, to try to make this animal usably sound again (she certainly seemed sound when they purchased her, and for some weeks afterwards).