Goat Feed besides Purina Goat Chow

[aggieterpkatie]

And here's an article with more info on DE.

Some quotes:

Diatomaceous Earth - Experimental Feeding
of Codex Food-grade Diatomaceous Earth
to Zoo Animals

Richard Smith, Hallwood Inc., Animal Food Specialties, Grand Rapids, Michigan

A mixture of feed incorporating 2% diatomaceous earth was sent to three zoos for evaluation. John Ball Park of Grand Rapids, Michigan; Brookfield Zoos of Chicago Illinois; and Buffalo Zoo of Buffalo, New York. John Ball and Buffalo Zoos reported that their black bears on the special feed showed a better coat and clearer eyes. The primates fed at the Brookfield Zoo displayed a pronounced improvement in both appearance and behavior. Stool samples taken at all three zoos showed an absence of any internal parasites - adult or egg. Parasites in these animals were present prior to using the diatomaceous earth food mixture.

Flies: Thoroughly dust areas where flies frequent (walls, straw bedding, livestock pens). It also can be applied to livestock coat as an insect repellent/contact insecticide.
Fly Larva: Keeps fly larvae from developing in manure, which makes a significant reduction in the fly population

To insects DE is a lethal dust with microscopic razor sharp edges. These sharp edges cut through the insect's protective covering drying it out and killing them when they are either dusted with DE or if it applied as a wettable powder spray. If they ingest the DE it will shred their insides.

Comes with complete instructions for use on insects, flea and lice control, bed bugs, grain storage, parasite control in animals (use in feed) and fly control.

I got some DE and I'm going to do a little experiment with my goat. I'm going to do a fecal before I feed it, then one a few weeks after I start feeding it. I'm curious to know what the results are.

 

[mamaluv321]

 

[cmjust0]

My coworker has an organic veggie farm, so she tries to keep all her animals organic if possible. She feeds DE to all her animals, and she recently did a little experiment to see if wet DE would kill bugs. She put DE in a jar with some water to make it soupy, then she put in some maggots. They died. It worked. Just sayin.

It worked because maggots died in a soupy mix of inorganic flour and water? Did she also provide the maggots with food, by any chance? Did they drown?

Did she poke holes in the lid? (sorry )

Most importantly, how exactly would this pertain to internal parasites, considering they're not much like maggots?

And here's an article with more info on DE.

Correction: That's an advertisement with info on DE. Big difference between ads and articles.

Some quotes:

Diatomaceous Earth - Experimental Feeding
of Codex Food-grade Diatomaceous Earth
to Zoo Animals

Richard Smith, Hallwood Inc., Animal Food Specialties, Grand Rapids, Michigan

A mixture of feed incorporating 2% diatomaceous earth was sent to three zoos for evaluation. John Ball Park of Grand Rapids, Michigan; Brookfield Zoos of Chicago Illinois; and Buffalo Zoo of Buffalo, New York. John Ball and Buffalo Zoos reported that their black bears on the special feed showed a better coat and clearer eyes. The primates fed at the Brookfield Zoo displayed a pronounced improvement in both appearance and behavior. Stool samples taken at all three zoos showed an absence of any internal parasites - adult or egg. Parasites in these animals were present prior to using the diatomaceous earth food mixture.

Interesting how this has morphed into "Diatomaceous Earth - Experimental Feeding of Codex Food-grade Diatomaceous Earth
to Zoo Animals," lending it the appearance of actually being a scientific study..

The reality is that it's the product of a single letter written from one guy to another in 1966.

Wanna read it?

What's even funnier is that that if you plug some of those keywords in, google returns hundreds upon hundreds of hits to companies hawking DE who are all hanging their hats on little more than a single, 44-year-old correspondance between one company and another, despite the fact that it lacks any semblance of context whatsoever.

Like this one, which I found elsewhere:

Richard Smith, an animal food specialist from Grand Rapids, MI, conducted an experiment by feeding Codex Food-grade diatomaceous earth to zoo animals in Grand Rapids; MI, Chicago, IL; and Buffalo, NY. The zoos in MI and NY reported their black bears on the special feed showed better coats and clearer eyes while the primates at the zoo in IL has improvements in both appearance and behavior. Fecal exams taken prior to using the diatomaceous earth showed parasites present; there was an absence of any internal parasites following the experiment.

Funny how Richard Smith becomes an "animal food specialist" simply because he works at a place called "animal food specialties", and how "fossil flour" becomes "codex food-grade diatomaceous earth"...and how HE was the one conducting the experiment, regardless of the fact that he was simply sending some anecdotal results back to the guys at Perma-Guard....

See how this stuff works? The BS gets pretty deep after nearly 50 years........

Also of note is the fact that the company to whom the letter was being sent -- Perma-Guard -- still produces "food grade" DE to be used as an *anti-caking agent* in feed.. Interestingly enough, they also produce insecticidal DE...with added insecticidal chemicals!!

Soooo, which one went in the "biscuits" made in 1966? Hmmmmmmmmmm... Were they trying something new?

And if this is proof positive, why -- of all the people to be hawking DE -- doesn't Perma-Guard have this up on their own website? Do they know something about the circumstances that we don't?

The reality is that perma guard has ZERO, ZILCH, NADA on their website about DE's effectiveness as an anthelmintic. Nothing at all. Why is that? Again, hmmmmmm...

Anyway, the total lack of context combined with a misleading revision to add an official-sounding title and exclusion of the date and voila -- proof positive that DE works!

Uhhhh...not really. :/

The rest of what you quoted is literally just an advertisement for what you can supposedly do with DE.

Bottom line, there have been studies done -- like, real studies -- which show DE to be ineffective as an anthelmintic. Some other studies have been more or less inconclusive, so far as I can tell.

I've yet to see ONE study that lends any credence whatsoever to the idea that it's a really good dewormer as some folks claim it to be, let's put it that way.

Here's a good read , I thought. It was written by Ann Wells, DVM of
Springpond Holistic Animal Health and exists on the http servers of the Northeast Organic Farming Association of Vermont...I doubt they're a rabid anti-DE bunch like I'm sure many of y'all reckon I must be.

Anyway...

Most alternative dewormers have not been shown by scientific research to have any effect on numbers of worms. Diatomaceous earth (DE) has been promoted by some for controlling internal and external parasites in livestock. Almost pure silica, DE is the finely ground fossilized remains of diatoms, tiny sea organisms that accumulate on the sea floor and can be mined from deposits. The diatom remains have microscopic cutting edges that are said to pierce the outer protective layer of parasitic worms and insects,
causing dehydration and death. There is little scientific data on the effectiveness of DE for internal parasites, but researchers have seen a decrease in flies on animals when using DE. One study at Iowa State showed no benefit from using the DE. I have talked to Dan Morrical, Sheep Extension Specialist at Iowa State, who worked on the study. He told me that they had a hard time even getting the lambs infested with worms, which was necessary to test to the effectiveness of DE. I bring up this point to make
you aware that farmers must know if their animals even have worms in order to know whether control measures are needed, are effective, or how to effectively change them.

Many producers have claimed that they have had good results with DE, but their management is usually very good. They may be giving credit to the DE when they should be giving it to themselves. Although I have nothing to back me up, I've often wondered if it isn't the minerals in the DE that provide the benefit. Worm egg count also naturally falls at the end of summer and the beginning of fall. People who are doing fecal egg counts (FEC) may be thinking the DE is lowering the egg counts, instead of realizing that it is the natural cycle. I haven't talked to any producer who uses DE without significantly changing and then watching their management.

Using DE is not just a simple substitute for a chemical dewormer. This is another problem with the scientific research that has been done on DE. Researchers have simply substituted DE for their
conventional wormer and done everything else exactly the same. This is component research, whereas to really prove that DE has an effect, systems research needs to be done, using the same or similar management techniques that producers use. This type of research is much more difficult to do. If you still want to use DE, one dosage that I've seen used is ten to twenty pounds per ton of mineral supplement. Every animal must be fed a dose every day to be effective.

So, there ya go.. Do with that what you will.

 

[aggieterpkatie]

My coworker has an organic veggie farm, so she tries to keep all her animals organic if possible. She feeds DE to all her animals, and she recently did a little experiment to see if wet DE would kill bugs. She put DE in a jar with some water to make it soupy, then she put in some maggots. They died. It worked. Just sayin.

It worked because maggots died in a soupy mix of inorganic flour and water? Did she also provide the maggots with food, by any chance? Did they drown?

Did she poke holes in the lid? (sorry )

Most importantly, how exactly would this pertain to internal parasites, considering they're not much like maggots?

And here's an article with more info on DE.

Correction: That's an advertisement with info on DE. Big difference between ads and articles.

Some quotes:

Diatomaceous Earth - Experimental Feeding
of Codex Food-grade Diatomaceous Earth
to Zoo Animals

Richard Smith, Hallwood Inc., Animal Food Specialties, Grand Rapids, Michigan

A mixture of feed incorporating 2% diatomaceous earth was sent to three zoos for evaluation. John Ball Park of Grand Rapids, Michigan; Brookfield Zoos of Chicago Illinois; and Buffalo Zoo of Buffalo, New York. John Ball and Buffalo Zoos reported that their black bears on the special feed showed a better coat and clearer eyes. The primates fed at the Brookfield Zoo displayed a pronounced improvement in both appearance and behavior. Stool samples taken at all three zoos showed an absence of any internal parasites - adult or egg. Parasites in these animals were present prior to using the diatomaceous earth food mixture.

Interesting how this has morphed into "Diatomaceous Earth - Experimental Feeding of Codex Food-grade Diatomaceous Earth
to Zoo Animals," lending it the appearance of actually being a scientific study..

The reality is that it's the product of a single letter written from one guy to another in 1966.

Wanna read it?

What's even funnier is that that if you plug some of those keywords in, google returns hundreds upon hundreds of hits to companies hawking DE who are all hanging their hats on little more than a single, 44-year-old correspondance between one company and another, despite the fact that it lacks any semblance of context whatsoever.

Like this one, which I found elsewhere:

Richard Smith, an animal food specialist from Grand Rapids, MI, conducted an experiment by feeding Codex Food-grade diatomaceous earth to zoo animals in Grand Rapids; MI, Chicago, IL; and Buffalo, NY. The zoos in MI and NY reported their black bears on the special feed showed better coats and clearer eyes while the primates at the zoo in IL has improvements in both appearance and behavior. Fecal exams taken prior to using the diatomaceous earth showed parasites present; there was an absence of any internal parasites following the experiment.

Funny how Richard Smith becomes an "animal food specialist" simply because he works at a place called "animal food specialties", and how "fossil flour" becomes "codex food-grade diatomaceous earth"...and how HE was the one conducting the experiment, regardless of the fact that he was simply sending some anecdotal results back to the guys at Perma-Guard....

See how this stuff works? The BS gets pretty deep after nearly 50 years........

Also of note is the fact that the company to whom the letter was being sent -- Perma-Guard -- still produces "food grade" DE to be used as an *anti-caking agent* in feed.. Interestingly enough, they also produce insecticidal DE...with added insecticidal chemicals!!

Soooo, which one went in the "biscuits" made in 1966? Hmmmmmmmmmm... Were they trying something new?

And if this is proof positive, why -- of all the people to be hawking DE -- doesn't Perma-Guard have this up on their own website? Do they know something about the circumstances that we don't?

The reality is that perma guard has ZERO, ZILCH, NADA on their website about DE's effectiveness as an anthelmintic. Nothing at all. Why is that? Again, hmmmmmm...

Anyway, the total lack of context combined with a misleading revision to add an official-sounding title and exclusion of the date and voila -- proof positive that DE works!

Uhhhh...not really. :/

The rest of what you quoted is literally just an advertisement for what you can supposedly do with DE.

Bottom line, there have been studies done -- like, real studies -- which show DE to be ineffective as an anthelmintic. Some other studies have been more or less inconclusive, so far as I can tell.

I've yet to see ONE study that lends any credence whatsoever to the idea that it's a really good dewormer as some folks claim it to be, let's put it that way.

Here's a good read , I thought. It was written by Ann Wells, DVM of
Springpond Holistic Animal Health and exists on the http servers of the Northeast Organic Farming Association of Vermont...I doubt they're a rabid anti-DE bunch like I'm sure many of y'all reckon I must be.

Anyway...

Most alternative dewormers have not been shown by scientific research to have any effect on numbers of worms. Diatomaceous earth (DE) has been promoted by some for controlling internal and external parasites in livestock. Almost pure silica, DE is the finely ground fossilized remains of diatoms, tiny sea organisms that accumulate on the sea floor and can be mined from deposits. The diatom remains have microscopic cutting edges that are said to pierce the outer protective layer of parasitic worms and insects,
causing dehydration and death. There is little scientific data on the effectiveness of DE for internal parasites, but researchers have seen a decrease in flies on animals when using DE. One study at Iowa State showed no benefit from using the DE. I have talked to Dan Morrical, Sheep Extension Specialist at Iowa State, who worked on the study. He told me that they had a hard time even getting the lambs infested with worms, which was necessary to test to the effectiveness of DE. I bring up this point to make
you aware that farmers must know if their animals even have worms in order to know whether control measures are needed, are effective, or how to effectively change them.

Many producers have claimed that they have had good results with DE, but their management is usually very good. They may be giving credit to the DE when they should be giving it to themselves. Although I have nothing to back me up, I've often wondered if it isn't the minerals in the DE that provide the benefit. Worm egg count also naturally falls at the end of summer and the beginning of fall. People who are doing fecal egg counts (FEC) may be thinking the DE is lowering the egg counts, instead of realizing that it is the natural cycle. I haven't talked to any producer who uses DE without significantly changing and then watching their management.

Using DE is not just a simple substitute for a chemical dewormer. This is another problem with the scientific research that has been done on DE. Researchers have simply substituted DE for their
conventional wormer and done everything else exactly the same. This is component research, whereas to really prove that DE has an effect, systems research needs to be done, using the same or similar management techniques that producers use. This type of research is much more difficult to do. If you still want to use DE, one dosage that I've seen used is ten to twenty pounds per ton of mineral supplement. Every animal must be fed a dose every day to be effective.

So, there ya go.. Do with that what you will.

That's all well and good. We know you hate anything "alternative" when coming to goats.

I just think it's interesting you have such strong opinions on it when you've never personally tried it.

And I also find it hard to believe that SO many people use it with good results. Obviously they think it works. Perhaps it depends on the area, the type of parasite, etc. You know, like how some conventional dewormers don't work?

 

[cmjust0]

That's all well and good. We know you hate anything "alternative" when coming to goats.

Yep...when they don't work.

I just think it's interesting you have such strong opinions on it when you've never personally tried it.

I've used DE before, as it was intended to be used...for bugs. Dusted all my sweetcorn with it one year, trying to stem the tide of Japanese beetles eating all my silks.

Didn't work worth a damn.



I figure if it didn't work very well on things it's widely accepted to work well on, I'd probably better investigate "extra-label" use pretty carefully before I began relying on it to cure anything else.

In doing that, I found plenty of research that confirmed my suspicions...that it doesn't work for internal parasites.

And I also find it hard to believe that SO many people use it with good results. Obviously they think it works. Perhaps it depends on the area, the type of parasite, etc. You know, like how some conventional dewormers don't work?

FWIW, I find it hard to believe also.

In fact, I don't believe it.

 

[freemotion]

Ummm.....I'm with CM on this one... Although I am curious about the results of aggie's fecals.

My first fecals showed mid-range but acceptable worm load. I ran them again a month or so later before using an herbal dewormer (Molly's Herbals), expecting higher worm loads. I found almost none, much to my astonishment. The only thing I could figure was that the black walnut leaves were coming off the trees in the fall and I was also feeding lots of pumpkins with the seeds, both are in many herbal deworming formulas. Well, walnut husks, not leaves, but they do smell the same to me. Something they were eating was working.

 

[cmjust0]

Ummm.....I'm with CM on this one... Although I am curious about the results of aggie's fecals.

My first fecals showed mid-range but acceptable worm load. I ran them again a month or so later before using an herbal dewormer (Molly's Herbals), expecting higher worm loads. I found almost none, much to my astonishment. The only thing I could figure was that the black walnut leaves were coming off the trees in the fall and I was also feeding lots of pumpkins with the seeds, both are in many herbal deworming formulas. Well, walnut husks, not leaves, but they do smell the same to me. Something they were eating was working.

You sure about that?

Worm egg count also naturally falls at the end of summer and the beginning of fall. People who are doing fecal egg counts (FEC) may be thinking the DE is lowering the egg counts, instead of realizing that it is the natural cycle.

Last I checked, that's right about when black walnuts start losing their leaves and the pumpkins start coming in.

 

[freemotion]

Shoot, I thought I was onto something good.....

 

[babsbag]

Our TSC sells Purina goat chow and 3 different Noble Goat feeds. One is called Dairy Parlor and has a white tag. It is not medicated

The only way to tell the 3 Noble Goat feeds apart is on the paper tag that is attached to the end of the bag. Other than that they look the same. I believe the tag colors are white, yellow, and pink. Just remember white is for milk.

I mix my own feed and use a cement mixer to mix it in. DH does it for me and it works great. I mix the dairy parlor, wet COB, afalfa pellets, sugar beet pulp, and whole wheat if they have it. I also buy a grain mix from the feed mill that I give to the ladies on the milk stand.

And, my goats HATE lose minerals. They refuse to eat them. I use the purnia goat block from TSC and they love it. TSC also has a rather pricey goat protein pale that my goats really like. But the lose mineral is a no go.

 

[cmjust0]

Shoot, I thought I was onto something good.....

Not saying you weren't, necessarily...just saying there are sometimes other factors in play that can mess with trials and tests and so forth.

I, too, have heard about pumpkin seeds being a natural dewormer... I've looked for information on it, and there *actually is* some kind of naturally occuring substance in there that's supposed to work as an anthelmintic..

Lots of folks throw fresh pumpkins to their goats every fall and swear their goats look better and their eyelids pink up and stuff like that...but still, I can't help but wonder if what they're actually seeing is a late-season drop in FEC (and an accompanying drop in consumption of the goat's resources by the worms) due to the fact that the worms don't wanna spit eggs out when the larva's only gonna get frost-killed anyway...everything has its own little survival mechanisms, afterall..

I really don't know the answers....I'm just throwin' stuff out there for consideration..