Herdsire Qualifications - DNA testing

[OneFineAcre]

There was a thread recently on a FB page asking why 4 times as many ND bucks were registered each year than any other breed
A very prominent ND breeder cracked that because most ND breeders felt that blue eyes and moonspots were a valid reason to sell a buck
He had a point
But he made another post that said that he was guilty as anyone because he would sell a buck from any of his does to anyone who wanted one.
So there you go
Those top farms will sell a buck out of every single breeding to anyone who will buy it

 

[Goat Whisperer]

I think when selecting a herdsire you need to do what's best for your situation.

I wouldn't leave a goat intact just because he is hardy.
I also wouldn't keep a goat intact just because is has a certain color etc. (we all know how I feel about that!)

I personally love looking at the numbers! I think it's a great tool. OFA- you are right when it comes to you are just going off of the seller is telling you. For us, we are retaining so many of our goats we will at least know our herd.

We have a lamancha who's dam is a 92 EEEE. She is a hard keeper (I think part of it was gut infection)
I want to cross her with an animal who is not only quality (LA, milktest for example) but hardy/easy keeper as well.

I have a buck who is out of a 2010 spotlight sale doe, his grandam is a SGCH LA 93EEEE, her Sire's dam is a SGCH 94 EEEE- the highest lamancha ever. His whole dam line is spectacular.

The sire to my boy is a CH LA 91 EEE and is all Mint Leaf.

Just an amazing pedigree.

So I can most definitely appreciate those LA's.
But this buck is a hard keeper. He is growing good, I think part of it is that he is putting all his growth into growing TALL. But I have a hard time keeping good fleshing on him. He is only in with 2 other bucks- a nubian (dam LA 90, sire 91) and a Not so Mini Nubian who is 125#. The Nubian buck gained almost 15# a month for the first year. Management is not an issue- this boy just needs to be pampered.

But I can honestly say if his kids are like this I will not use him. Yes the pedigree is great, the scores are great, but it isn't worth the stress on my end. If my animals don't look like I think they should, it causes me to stress. I don't want super fast growers that end up being "over mature" but I also don't want super slow growers either. We have some, they end up great but takes a long time to grow them. Talking about the Lamanchas of course. I am getting firmer and firmer and when we retain kids we are keeping the most correct kids that are the hardiest and grow at a good rate consistently.

Disease testing is another aspect. It can be very difficult to find someone who tests for the same diseases we do (CAE, CL, & Johnes). Some folks are more trustworthy than others, but at what point do you decide that it's worth the risk of getting an "untested" animal. Just about every dairy goat breeder tests for CAE, but not the other two diseases. I'm not wanting to turn this into a testing debate, just laying out some thoughts.

I know of a breeder who sold an Oberhasli that scored either a 90 or 91.
The breeder gave full disclosure that the doe cannot kid on her own and basically needs an epidural.
Someone snatched her up immediately because on paper she looks great.
I can honestly say I would't do this.

Now obviously this is pretty rare.

I am NOT trying to be argumentative here! Just laying out some thoughts

 

[Southern by choice]

You can't independently, quantifiably evaluate parasite resistance, hardiness, kidding ease
You can only go by what the person selling the goat says
And you run into the whole " barn goggle" issue

Absolutely- you can't measure those things. That is why you deal with a breeder that you can trust.
Yes, and some breeders don't have a clue what they are doing, what they have, how to evaluate their own stock.
Barn goggles is a term slung around often and it is real, I agree, but it is usually by people that don't know what they are looking at in a goat.

The issue with only going by the numbers is that some genetics just don't line up well and even though the LA's and the pedigree is awesome you can still have a train wreck. We know of many breeders that have experienced this a time or two and it set their program back by a few years... but they know that can happen.

This is why you see many farms that buy "named farm" goats... high scoring LA's, starred etc... but then they don't know how to put the animals together and you see within 3 generations all that down the drain.

We went to look at a goat once, told it was a slow growing goat a little small etc, but would be highly competitive in the ring and had it's dry leg already. They just needed to reduce numbers.
Went to see the goat.
Ummmm.... really.
That's why I don't go by numbers, wins, or any of it exclusively.
No way would I ever have bought that goat. Some sucker looking for a name sure did though.

This past year there was a lot of chatter about appraisals.
Different appraisers see things differently yet it is suppose to be all mathematical. I don't know.
Goats that drop 5-10 points or jump 5-10 points in a year or whole herds that have always appraise in the range of 89-91 and suddenly getting 83-85... that leaves me scratching my head.
It seemed like people were either really happy or really upset...
This year one of the biggest complaints was the appraiser that marked goat after goat after goat with tilted chest wall.
Reminded me a bit of the stories of the appraiser that marked a whole bunch of goats as having twisted udders. Do you remember hearing about that? That was horrible.

I do believe it has value. I still think it is a good tool, but a tool nonetheless. We will do LA when we can afford to... it is a good learning experience.

 

[Bayleaf Meadows]

Nigerians are the hardiest of all breeds hands down, so this may not apply so much to them but I can say the more fru fru the goat it seems those other categories are very important.

So, SBC, what you really mean to say is that everyone should raise Nigerians? Lol

 

[Goat Whisperer]

So, SBC, what you really mean to say is that everyone should raise Nigerians? Lol

YES!

 

[OneFineAcre]

I saw a farm advertise a "soaking wet buckling" sale
First freshening does kidding in November and December
"You are buying pedigree so what you see is what you get"
Once posted you have a week to pick up at the farm
You get an application for registration
You disbud, tattoo and vaccinate

 

[Goat Whisperer]

I saw that too…

 

[Green Acres Farm]

I saw that too…

X2

And the same person complains about the number of buck sales when they do the exact same thing...

 

[OneFineAcre]

Somebody will probably end up with a real gem
Most probably will not

 

[lalabugs]

Thank you all for this thread. I'm still learning what is good. Honey is registered. She has from my understanding good lines. Her udder needs improvement. We have gone back and forth on keeping/selling her. I am still learning what to look for. Everyone has an opinion on what is good to breed. I've talked to people who only go off of LA numbers, milk test, and lines. For someone who is new to goats trying to learn how to breed up. It really does get confusing! What IS good quality? Depending on who you talk to, you will get a wildly different response.

Our main purpose having dairy goats is to have milk for our family. We got registered to get our children into showing. Out of our goats bred for next year Honeys kids are the only ones who can be registered. Also realized using the ADGA calculator to calculate inbreeding when pedigree is not 100% due to AGS registered goats. ADGA is not an accurate % of inbreeding.

I downloaded a program called Kintraks. It's an animal breeding program. You enter all the information. On ADGA Honey is 4.93% inbred. Putting all of her pedigree into kintraks it shows she's actually 7.03% inbred. At this point I do not feel comfortable enough to keep any intact bucks out of our goats. I do not want to sell anyone a buck that would not help breed up the breed. Our unregistered goats I do not want to sell any bucks. Learning what to look for in an adult buck is hard enough for a new breeder. Let alone looking at a kid and deciding if he will be an improvement to your herd. All the local breeders will sell ALL bucks. How does that help new breeders learn what is and is not an animal to improve the breed?