babsbag
Herd Master
Sorry, wrong answer. Breed matters more than you will know and until you own a true LGD breed you just won't get it.
It is so saddening to see LGDS jump from home to home where I live
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Sorry, wrong answer. Breed matters more than you will know and until you own a true LGD breed you just won't get it.
babsbag
Herd Master
And I have to chime in here. If a person buys an LGD for the sole purpose of it living with and guarding livestock and that LGD does not make the cut after months or literally years of training what do they do with the dog? They may not be able to bring it into their home, they may not have a breeder that will take it back. Maybe they can re-home it to a pet home, and maybe they can't. In the meantime it has to stay locked up in a pen so it won't harm the livestock (and I am not talking chickens). So what do they do with it? Do they never buy an LGD puppy because it might not work out? I would not keep a goat that can not give milk, I would not keep a buck that is sterile. I love my LGDs beyond words but they were bought for a purpose so what do you do when that purpose can't be fulfilled. Is a person supposed to have a barn full of failed LGDs? Not every LGD will succeed in their job description.
I have one such pup and the verdict is still out on her future with me.
I have one such pup and the verdict is still out on her future with me.
norseofcourse
Herd Master
I had a fear biter, too. It's a big responsibility. Can you understand that some people might not want the legal liability of a known biter? Might not have the ability to handle the dog and keep it (and all other humans) safe for the rest of its life? Might feel the dog should not live its whole life in fear, confined so it doesn't hurt someone, unable to be a happy, calm member of a family? Might never forgive themselves if it bit their grandchild, or if they found it what they thought was a good home, and it bit a child or anyone else? Some people might not have a choice - their insurance may drop them for having a dangerous dog. Their county might have a 'one strike and you're out' policy. It's not always as easy as 'I got it so it's my responsibility forever'. And talking about a 'bullet in their head' is inflammatory. There are humane ways to put down dogs.
For many years I was of the 'you get an animal, it's your responsibility for life' group. When I had to rehome my cat Sunshine, it hurt, and I felt I let her down. Many, many, many people rehome or get rid of a pet way too quickly, but I've come to realize it isn't always a sign of a morally reprehensible person. Sometimes, your responsibility extends to finding a home that works better for that animal, and realizing it's not your home. IMHO it shouldn't be your first choice, but it shouldn't make you a bad person, either.
What's funny, is that my deeply held belief - that any animal you get is yours for life - has made it really hard to raise sheep. I am purposely cutting short the lifespan of my lambs - sending them to be slaughtered well under a year old. What's the difference between sheep and dogs? They are both domesticated animals, they both have intelligence and instincts and at least some emotion. Is it hard? Yes, very. I make sure they have good lives while they're here, and I have also promised my ewes that they are here for life, so that helps a bit. I wouldn't make a very good commercial farmer, but luckily I don't have to be.
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cjc
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Like I said its a dog. Don't put that obligation on it. No matter how you look at it dogs are different. They are not the animals that we eat. They are companion animals and that is what makes them different. Just like many people disagree with eating horses, we do not eat dogs. They are companion animals.
babsbag
Herd Master
They are companion animals that have a job. A seeing eye guide dog has a job. Does it stay with the blind person if it can't do that job? A lead sled dogs pulls a sled, where does it go when it can't pull anymore?
Do you have an LGD?
Do you have an LGD?
norseofcourse
Herd Master
Back to the point of this thread, that it's sad to see livestock guard dogs rehomed over and over - do you see that in your area? Got any suggestions on solutions? How to help the situation when it happens - or, better yet, prevent it?
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Mike CHS
Herd Master
Thank you Norseofcourse :}
Southern by choice
Herd Master
@Kaye Training of course does play a role in dogs... you are right.
Keep in mind many use other breeds as farmdogs and they do quite well. Livestock Guardians are different.
My GSD and my mutt are both great farmdogs and very protective of everything on the farm. They however cannot do what a LGD can.
There are many dogs of LG Breeds that don't cut it as an actual LGD, but can make great farmdogs.
Keep in mind many use other breeds as farmdogs and they do quite well. Livestock Guardians are different.
My GSD and my mutt are both great farmdogs and very protective of everything on the farm. They however cannot do what a LGD can.
There are many dogs of LG Breeds that don't cut it as an actual LGD, but can make great farmdogs.
babsbag
Herd Master
@Kaye...inquiring minds need to know...what is an SMD? I "googled" it and came up with a zero. And is a BMD a Burmese Mountain Dog? If so, they are gorgeous animals and I came very close to owning one once. I needed another dog then like I need another goat now so I refrained, but it sure was tempting. I would say maybe one day, but not likely...they aren't common, and I'm not young.
misfitmorgan
Herd Master
We dont see much if any rehomeing/bouncing around of LGDs in my area. They are big money up here which is sickening. LGD's here commonly go for $600-3,000 each...the lower end of the scale no breed rights/fixed and the upper end 6 months-1yr old with some training in. There is a local lady that pumps them out like hotcakes and charges $800 each...i refuse to get any of her dogs though, they are not sound in the head.
Wow... what happened? All hell broke loose here
@cjc didn't you have a cow, that had a bull calf, and was incapable of producing/delivering milk? And what happened to that cow? Why? Didn't that cow have the "right" to a full life till the end of her days because you purchased her? You treat "all" of your animals as pets, equally, don't you? I applaud the fact that you are in favor of animal rights, and most of us are too. However, there are some animals that can't be saved and others that shouldn't be saved. You can't apply the animal rights stigma to just domesticated animals... It's an all or nothing thing. How is it right to put down a non functioning animal because it's not domesticated and NOT put down a non functioning animal because it is domesticated? There is twisted logic there. Is it OK to put down a cow because it isn't functioning as intended? Is it OK to put down a horse because it's lame and will never walk again?
I'm not trying to further the animosity that has overflowed here, but trying to illustrate the point that some have/were trying to make. The cow had a purpose. When she couldn't fulfill that purpose, she was butchered and put in the freezer. A pet is purchased for a reason as well... companionship normally being the primary reason. If that pet can't be a companion, for whatever reason; can't be trusted, is unstable, is a biter, use any descriptors you wish, what is to be done with it? Chain it up and make it live in misery because you, the owner made a life long obligation? If it can be re-trained/salvaged then re-homed, then that's a wonderful thing. The problem is, that's not always possible... Life isn't all candy canes and sunshine. Life also isn't black and white...
The discussion started centered around LGDs and the fact that many are thrown away, dumped, etc. when they don't "work out". Many (most!) are dumped or given to shelters because they were purchased for the WRONG reason... to be a pet, and they are NOT pets... a true LGD breed animal is a working dog, NOT a pet. That does NOT mean that they don't become companions to the owner. It doesn't mean that they don't like/want/need human attention. It doesn't mean they are born knowing exactly what to do at birth (though some do). Yes, most still require some training, many require substantial training, and all need training to meet the owners specific expectations and needs.
If a livestock owner buys an LGD to do an LGD's job, and that dog is unable to perform that job, is unable to be trained, for whatever reason (aside from the unwillingness of the owner to properly train it), then what most of us here would want is for that dog to be re-homed in a situation where it WOULD work out. I don't believe ANYONE here was saying that LGD should be shot! Quite the opposite! We were upset because that was happening! We want to SAVE those dogs and TRY to rehabilitate them. That's exactly what SBC was saying, and is doing... trying to save dogs that otherwise would be killed. What was said beyond that was if the (LGD or any) dog can NOT be rehabilitated, can NOT function in some other capacity, then better to put it down than keep it locked in a cage, in misery, the rest of its natural life.
Yes, there are other dogs of whatever breed that have and can guard livestock and farms, homes, possessions, etc. But that doesn't make them an LGD. A Great Dane might retrieve a ball that you throw, but that doesn't make it a retriever (breed).
I'm sorry that you or anyone else got your feelings hurt here. That's NOT what this site and the forums are about. I think many things were said that were taken wrong or misinterpreted in haste and anger, by many, on both sides. @cjc I'm not questioning your morals, nor am I debating or insinuating that you are uneducated. I will say that you are young, and haven't experienced many things that some of us have. Schooling only goes so far, and please, never make the mistake of discounting life's experiences. Many things can only be seen with time. And to realize the truth in that, ALSO takes time.
I don't believe that anyone active on this forum or this thread said or believes that a dog should be put down because it didn't "work out". I believe that everyone on this forum and this thread believes that any animal that CAN be saved, SHOULD be saved, including those that aren't working out for the present owner, but that CAN work out for another owner through re-homing.
I also think that some, if not most of us, are of the opinion that a dangerous or terminally ill animal, that can NOT be rehabilitated or cured, should not be kept alive to suffer incarceration in a cage or on a chain, or kept alive to suffer until death. I believe that some if not most of us are of the opinion that if an animal is sick, or diseased, and can't be cured, or fixed to the point that it can live a healthy and happy life, that it is inhumane to force that animal to live in agony until it dies of pain and dysfunction or a "natural" death. Unfortunately, some are able to spend more than others in the pursuit of "fixing" a broken animal. Not everyone has the wherewithal to save every animal. I believe that many if not most of us would spend whatever we could afford to help our animals, but we will always put the health and well being of our family above that of any animal, pet or not.
I hope everyone can and will continue to enjoy the forums, despite having differing views and opinions. That's what we are sharing here after all.
@cjc didn't you have a cow, that had a bull calf, and was incapable of producing/delivering milk? And what happened to that cow? Why? Didn't that cow have the "right" to a full life till the end of her days because you purchased her? You treat "all" of your animals as pets, equally, don't you? I applaud the fact that you are in favor of animal rights, and most of us are too. However, there are some animals that can't be saved and others that shouldn't be saved. You can't apply the animal rights stigma to just domesticated animals... It's an all or nothing thing. How is it right to put down a non functioning animal because it's not domesticated and NOT put down a non functioning animal because it is domesticated? There is twisted logic there. Is it OK to put down a cow because it isn't functioning as intended? Is it OK to put down a horse because it's lame and will never walk again?
I'm not trying to further the animosity that has overflowed here, but trying to illustrate the point that some have/were trying to make. The cow had a purpose. When she couldn't fulfill that purpose, she was butchered and put in the freezer. A pet is purchased for a reason as well... companionship normally being the primary reason. If that pet can't be a companion, for whatever reason; can't be trusted, is unstable, is a biter, use any descriptors you wish, what is to be done with it? Chain it up and make it live in misery because you, the owner made a life long obligation? If it can be re-trained/salvaged then re-homed, then that's a wonderful thing. The problem is, that's not always possible... Life isn't all candy canes and sunshine. Life also isn't black and white...
The discussion started centered around LGDs and the fact that many are thrown away, dumped, etc. when they don't "work out". Many (most!) are dumped or given to shelters because they were purchased for the WRONG reason... to be a pet, and they are NOT pets... a true LGD breed animal is a working dog, NOT a pet. That does NOT mean that they don't become companions to the owner. It doesn't mean that they don't like/want/need human attention. It doesn't mean they are born knowing exactly what to do at birth (though some do). Yes, most still require some training, many require substantial training, and all need training to meet the owners specific expectations and needs.
If a livestock owner buys an LGD to do an LGD's job, and that dog is unable to perform that job, is unable to be trained, for whatever reason (aside from the unwillingness of the owner to properly train it), then what most of us here would want is for that dog to be re-homed in a situation where it WOULD work out. I don't believe ANYONE here was saying that LGD should be shot! Quite the opposite! We were upset because that was happening! We want to SAVE those dogs and TRY to rehabilitate them. That's exactly what SBC was saying, and is doing... trying to save dogs that otherwise would be killed. What was said beyond that was if the (LGD or any) dog can NOT be rehabilitated, can NOT function in some other capacity, then better to put it down than keep it locked in a cage, in misery, the rest of its natural life.
Yes, there are other dogs of whatever breed that have and can guard livestock and farms, homes, possessions, etc. But that doesn't make them an LGD. A Great Dane might retrieve a ball that you throw, but that doesn't make it a retriever (breed).
I'm sorry that you or anyone else got your feelings hurt here. That's NOT what this site and the forums are about. I think many things were said that were taken wrong or misinterpreted in haste and anger, by many, on both sides. @cjc I'm not questioning your morals, nor am I debating or insinuating that you are uneducated. I will say that you are young, and haven't experienced many things that some of us have. Schooling only goes so far, and please, never make the mistake of discounting life's experiences. Many things can only be seen with time. And to realize the truth in that, ALSO takes time.
I don't believe that anyone active on this forum or this thread said or believes that a dog should be put down because it didn't "work out". I believe that everyone on this forum and this thread believes that any animal that CAN be saved, SHOULD be saved, including those that aren't working out for the present owner, but that CAN work out for another owner through re-homing.
I also think that some, if not most of us, are of the opinion that a dangerous or terminally ill animal, that can NOT be rehabilitated or cured, should not be kept alive to suffer incarceration in a cage or on a chain, or kept alive to suffer until death. I believe that some if not most of us are of the opinion that if an animal is sick, or diseased, and can't be cured, or fixed to the point that it can live a healthy and happy life, that it is inhumane to force that animal to live in agony until it dies of pain and dysfunction or a "natural" death. Unfortunately, some are able to spend more than others in the pursuit of "fixing" a broken animal. Not everyone has the wherewithal to save every animal. I believe that many if not most of us would spend whatever we could afford to help our animals, but we will always put the health and well being of our family above that of any animal, pet or not.
I hope everyone can and will continue to enjoy the forums, despite having differing views and opinions. That's what we are sharing here after all.
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