Lenora is CAE positive, I need advice.

[lupinfarm]

I'm not sure I'd start pumping my animal full of drugs though, cmjust0...

As you've said many many times they can develop a resistance to certain drugs. I mean, look at people who have to switch drugs because one they'e been taking for their whole life isn't working so great anymore. Perhaps starting off with a supplement would be best. I know horses and goats are drastically different, but my pony has arthritis in her hocks pretty bad and she's on a joint supplement at the moment. We give her Cortaflex and I have noticed a considerable amount of difference in the way she walks, turns, and even all her gaits. When we first got Luna she couldn't do anything more than turn on the haunches very awkwardly because she was in so much pain. We got her weight up, and she's on a supplement now to help with her joints. When the time comes I'll look into a long-term medication, but for now supplementation is a good option, and it might be a good option for the OP.

 

[cmjust0]

Thanks CM for the suggestion about the Rymadyl.

I have given that to my dogs as a pain killer after surgery.

I'll ask Dr. Glover if I should start her on it.

Funny thing is, right now she is jumping on and off "goat mountain" and her knees are not swollen.

I just put a call into Dr. Glover, the vet who did the CAE test. I asked his nurse to ask him about a regimen of Rymadyl.

We'll see what he says.

DonnaBelle

Pretty sure Rimadyl's been around long enough that there are generics now... Be sure to ask about that, too...no sense in paying for name-brand when you can get a generic.

I found this , too...only thing I could find suggesting a Carprofen dosage for a goat.

Carprofen
1.4 mg/kg, 1 ml/35 kg s.c. or i.v. q3648h
1.4 mg/kg, 0.5 sachet/75 kg orally

The absorption of NSAIDs from the caprine
rumen has not been adequately studied. However,
small animal oral preparations (carprofen tablets and
meloxicam) are commonly used for chronic pain relief
and seem to be effective so far as can be judged
from the behaviour of the animals. They are generally
dosed empirically at dog doses, e.g. 50100 mg
carprofen once or twice daily for dairy goats. Under
present legislation, phenylbutazone is banned from
use in food-producing animals in the EU.

In the big table in the back of the doc, it lists the drug as: "Carprofen 50mg/ml".. I'm assuming that's the preparation from what they're pulling their "1ml/35kg" injectable dosage from. 50mg/1.4mg = 35....kg, which is the recommendation. The math works out. Notice also that the 'q' value is 36-48h..

Treatment could end up being as simple as a 2ml sq shot every 2 days, for a 150lb adult. And, frankly, I'd do the shot before I'd do tablets if I had to to it on a regular basis. Sounds counterintuitive, I know, but...well, I hate bolusing.

Also, according to the document, Carprofen is approved for use in cattle....in the UK, at least. Approved use in cattle is usually about as close as you can get to approved use in goats. :/

Hope this helps.

 

[cmjust0]

I'm not sure I'd start pumping my animal full of drugs though, cmjust0...

As you've said many many times they can develop a resistance to certain drugs. I mean, look at people who have to switch drugs because one they'e been taking for their whole life isn't working so great anymore. Perhaps starting off with a supplement would be best. I know horses and goats are drastically different, but my pony has arthritis in her hocks pretty bad and she's on a joint supplement at the moment. We give her Cortaflex and I have noticed a considerable amount of difference in the way she walks, turns, and even all her gaits. When we first got Luna she couldn't do anything more than turn on the haunches very awkwardly because she was in so much pain. We got her weight up, and she's on a supplement now to help with her joints. When the time comes I'll look into a long-term medication, but for now supplementation is a good option, and it might be a good option for the OP.

May very well be the case, and a good suggestion.. I hadn't really thought about it, frankly.

I can tell you that when we were asking the vet about sources of glucosamine/chondroitin for our LGD, he mentioned looking at horse products. So, I know they're out there..

I would think that if it's fit for a horse, it's probably fine for a goat too.

 

[DonnaBelle]

Thanks for the good advice. I'm going to do some more homework, and see if the Dr. can recommend a treatment should her knees become swollen. Or I should say more swollen. It seems they are a bit spongy. I did get her to hold still while brushing her. She goes into a "trance" with her eyes closed when I brush her with the stiff bristle brush. Anyway, I felt them and they seemed a big "soft" and a tad swollen.

I am going to keep an eye on those knees and her behaviors and if anything changes, I'll be sure to attend to it.

DonnaBelle

 

[aggieterpkatie]

Hmm.....Rimadyl for long-term use, CM? Does it metabolize differently in goats than dogs? Many times long term use in dogs results in liver damage. My dog is on a supplement (not Rimadyl), but only a low dose and I have his bloodwork done yearly to make sure there are no long-term ill effects.

And I'm not sure rushing to medicate just from a positive result would be needed. I mean, my doe is positive and she's not showing any signs of arthritis. And would you also medicate your older animals when they start getting arthritic?

I think providing a calm enviromnent and preventing stress (even such as lack of food, water, etc) will go a long way in preventing CAE flare ups.

 

[cmjust0]

Hmm.....Rimadyl for long-term use, CM? Does it metabolize differently in goats than dogs? Many times long term use in dogs results in liver damage. My dog is on a supplement (not Rimadyl), but only a low dose and I have his bloodwork done yearly to make sure there are no long-term ill effects.

And I'm not sure rushing to medicate just from a positive result would be needed. I mean, my doe is positive and she's not showing any signs of arthritis. And would you also medicate your older animals when they start getting arthritic?

I think providing a calm enviromnent and preventing stress (even such as lack of food, water, etc) will go a long way in preventing CAE flare ups.

I have no idea how it metabolizes in goats... All I know is what I was told by my vet about his experience with using it successfully with another client's goats, which seems to be backed up (impirically, anyway) by what I read in the link I posted above.

Liver damage? Maybe...really can't speak to that. Given that it's an NSAID, and that NSAIDS are known to be hard on the guts, I certainly wouldn't doubt it.

Personally....I'd use it if I had a goat with painful, swollen knees. If that meant she developed liver problems later in life, so be it. Reason being, I'd personally choose to have an animal in my care live a shorter life that was better rather than a pain-filled life that was longer.



ETA: As to rushing to medicate based on a positive alone, I should probably clarify... I'd CAE test if I had a reason to suspect it or someone requests it in a goat they're purchasing. Which is to say, a positive result around here would be from a goat that gave me reason to test...with that reason most likely being lameness.

So that's the point where I'd make the phone call...for a lame goat with a CAE+ diagnosis.

In the OP's case, this goat's knees are inflamed. They've been worse, and she seems to be doing OK for the time being, but this isn't a case where you get a CAE+ on a goat that's totally asymptomatic. There are, or at least have been symptoms.

So, you're right...rushing to treat on a diagnosis alone in an asymptomatic goat probably isn't the thing to do.

That's not exactly the case here, though, which is why I suggested the OP investigate carprofen.

 

[aggieterpkatie]

Hmm.....Rimadyl for long-term use, CM? Does it metabolize differently in goats than dogs? Many times long term use in dogs results in liver damage. My dog is on a supplement (not Rimadyl), but only a low dose and I have his bloodwork done yearly to make sure there are no long-term ill effects.

And I'm not sure rushing to medicate just from a positive result would be needed. I mean, my doe is positive and she's not showing any signs of arthritis. And would you also medicate your older animals when they start getting arthritic?

I think providing a calm enviromnent and preventing stress (even such as lack of food, water, etc) will go a long way in preventing CAE flare ups.

I have no idea how it metabolizes in goats... All I know is what I was told by my vet about his experience with using it successfully with another client's goats, which seems to be backed up (impirically, anyway) by what I read in the link I posted above.

Liver damage? Maybe...really can't speak to that. Given that it's an NSAID, and that NSAIDS are known to be hard on the guts, I certainly wouldn't doubt it.

Personally....I'd use it if I had a goat with painful, swollen knees. If that meant she developed liver problems later in life, so be it. Reason being, I'd personally choose to have an animal in my care live a shorter life that was better rather than a pain-filled life that was longer.

I understand your reasoning. I'm just wondering why your vet said it's ok for long term use when in dogs it's not really ok. I mean, sometimes liver damage is worse than what the rimadyl was treating.

I understand medicating if a goat is sore, but your first post made it sound like you'd start treating right away.

 

[cmjust0]

I understand your reasoning. I'm just wondering why your vet said it's ok for long term use when in dogs it's not really ok. I mean, sometimes liver damage is worse than what the rimadyl was treating.

It's designed for long-term use in dogs...that's precisely what it's for. I have a hard time believing that something designed specifically for long-term use in dogs isn't considered OK to be used long term in dogs.

Consider that it's an NSAID, akin to Banamine. We all know that Banamine pretty much has about a 3-day maximum use in goats, and that if you go much longer than that, you can pretty much burn a hole in their GI and run the risk of destroying their liver and/or kidneys.

That's precisely where carprofen differs from flunixen and other NSAIDS...it's made to be used long term without -- or with a substantially decreased incidence of -- those types of issues.

Bear in mind, too, that certain breeds of dog apparently seem to have more problems with carprofen than other breeds. For instance, carprofen is especially rough on Labs if I'm not mistaken.

How does that translate to goats? Well, again, all I can tell you is that my vet has real-world experience with using it successfully to treat arthritic goats..

Someone else's vet may have had real-world, negative experience using it on goats...but I haven't heard it. Most vets, I suspect, have ZERO real-world experience using it on goats, and could probably only proceed on hypotheticals..

Ultimately, it's up to all of us to do what we think is right, and I wouldn't suggest any different for the OP.

In suggesting that she investigate carprofen...well, I was just saying what I'd do. That's all.

 

[aggieterpkatie]

Consider that it's an NSAID, akin to Banamine. We all know that Banamine pretty much has about a 3-day maximum use in goats, and that if you go much longer than that, you can pretty much burn a hole in their GI and run the risk of destroying their liver and/or kidneys.

That's funny because on another forum, members specifically say they've had great success using it long term, even though "they" say not to.

Welcome to the wacky world of drugs and opinions.

 

[DonnaBelle]

Yep, Dr. Glover said if I gave an anti-inflamatory I'd also
need to give Zantac at the same time. Well, for me, that would be at a later date, and maybe not at all if she doesn't get a lot worse than she is presently.

Again, I'm going to monitor Lenora and take it day by day.

Right now, she seems OK. She is getting good quaility hay and supplemental feed and is current on her CD & T.

Dang!! Having these goats is for sure not a piece of cake.

DonnaBelle