Lespediza Hay-Worms.

[Southern by choice]

Dr. L- Sorry I presumed you knew who he was... is Dr. Jean-Marie Luginbuhl-North Carolina State University a member and one of the key researchers with the ASCRPC

Dr C is great but he doesn't do the research. He is an awesome vet that is for sure BUT It IS Dr. L's lifework - it is what he does....they showed the slides and presented all the studies. I may have it on disc from the class if you would like to see it. When the studies were done they noticed once the animals were OFF the Lespediza the egg counts rapidly increased. They repeated the study over and over to figure out why... ended up sending slides out of the country for some of the leading scientists to figure out what was going on. The plant was basically making it impossible for the parasite to reproduce or "suck" it had kind of a coating on it ... the slides (slideshow pictures for us) where very clear... amazing actually. After the Les. was out of their system fecal egg counts began going back up rather quickly.

Yeah. I hesitated posting too, as it seems even when I am agreeing with you you tend to find something to knit-pic against.
Instead of sharing info you tend to dispute or argue. It is old.

I haven't been on here in a long time, mostly because of this kind of thing.

Genuinely happy to see you bring up this awesome plant... just don't get you 1 fine... you seemed like such a neat person. Adding info to something that you DID NOT KNOW isn't a fight or anything it is adding to already great info.... that is what a forum is. If you reject the research fine... but a forum is not just about you...others may want the info... they can decide for themselves.

 

[bj taylor]

hello, i'm completely new & don't have goats yet, nor have ever had. I will in the next few months. i'm curious, southern by choice, you say you have the lespediza growing on your place - what kind of growing conditions does it thrive in? thanks

 

[OneFineAcre]

Dr. L- Sorry I presumed you knew who he was... is Dr. Jean-Marie Luginbuhl-North Carolina State University a member and one of the key researchers with the ASCRPC

Dr C is great but he doesn't do the research. He is an awesome vet that is for sure BUT It IS Dr. L's lifework - it is what he does....they showed the slides and presented all the studies. I may have it on disc from the class if you would like to see it. When the studies were done they noticed once the animals were OFF the Lespediza the egg counts rapidly increased. They repeated the study over and over to figure out why... ended up sending slides out of the country for some of the leading scientists to figure out what was going on. The plant was basically making it impossible for the parasite to reproduce or "suck" it had kind of a coating on it ... the slides (slideshow pictures for us) where very clear... amazing actually. After the Les. was out of their system fecal egg counts began going back up rather quickly.

Yeah. I hesitated posting too, as it seems even when I am agreeing with you you tend to find something to knit-pic against.
Instead of sharing info you tend to dispute or argue. It is old.

I haven't been on here in a long time, mostly because of this kind of thing.

Genuinely happy to see you bring up this awesome plant... just don't get you 1 fine... you seemed like such a neat person. Adding info to something that you DID NOT KNOW isn't a fight or anything it is adding to already great info.... that is what a forum is. If you reject the research fine... but a forum is not just about you...others may want the info... they can decide for themselves.

Well Southern, I feel that when I post something I get nit-pic'd as well. In fact, I feel that way right now I apologize if I make you feel that way, because I DO NOT enjoy the feeling myself.
Believe me, if I could go back in time right now I would stick with my first thought to not post this at all. I should start listening to my better half.

When I joined this site in Dec, I did so because I thought that I could contribute something.
I'm sorry to hear that you have not posted on here for a while because of anything I may have said. I think it would be a good idea if I gave that some thought and prayer tonight.

 

[Straw Hat Kikos]

I'm not going to get involved in this but I did want to say a quick few things.

1) DE is NOT a dewormer at all. ALot of people believe it is but it's not and that drives me crazy.

2) There is no vet that knows it all, not even "Dr. C"

3) Hay is not a dewormer either

There are certain things other than chemical wormers that can help with worms in certain ways but most are NOT wormers like people say or believe. No hay is a dewormer and neither is DE.

They are FACTS and really no disputing either of them. Do the research (not look at one "respected" person)

 

[OneFineAcre]

I'm not going to get involved in this but I did want to say a quick few things.

1) DE is NOT a dewormer at all. ALot of people believe it is but it's not and that drives me crazy.

2) There is no vet that knows it all, not even "Dr. C"

3) Hay is not a dewormer either

There are certain things other than chemical wormers that can help with worms in certain ways but most are NOT wormers like people say or believe. No hay is a dewormer and neither is DE.

They are FACTS and really no disputing either of them. Do the research (not look at one "respected" person)

Thanks for your thoughts. You've obviously done a great deal of research on this and I appreciate your contribution to my thread.

I'd also like to apologize to you as well if I've ever said anything that you took as offensive.

 

[Straw Hat Kikos]

Nope, none taken at all.

I have only read the first post so far. I didn't have time earlier. I'm not going to say or take part in any of the rest, I simply wanted to say what I said above. I sure don't know everything about goats and I know there's much more I don't know than I do know. But I do and have done tons of hours of research and what I said is true.

 

[bcnewe2]

I read all the replies to this thread. Wow if you guys think people are rude on here you haven't been on many forums that are truly hard to handle. Some of them that I've been active on can be vicious. I take it all with a grain of salt. But I do take the info that seems to work for me to heart. I will put up with just about anything to get new and good info.

I totally agree with Straw Hat. Nothing but a wormer will get rid of worms. Other things might help control their rapid reproduction a bit but in the end if you count on anything other than a wormer you will end up with wormy animals.

Unless my sheep are showing signs of a heavy load I don't worry about parasites to much. IF I had smaller land or tighter quarters for the sheep I might have to worm more often but as it stands I worm 2x's per year and we are doing great! 200% lambing, nice growth on everything, why should i look for trouble! I will surely find it and if I don't look the trouble that needs me will find me.

Prohibit or Lavamasole is my wormer of choice right now then Cydectin the other worming time. I switch it up if need be but it's working for us at this time!

DE is great sprinkled in the barn or coop but I have never really found it does much ingested. I was under the impression if it gets wet it is not effective anymore so once ingested it's not really doing much and I've seen coughing sheep from inhaling long term.

Certain grass might help control or lessen the reproduction of parasites but really, kill them? How would that work?

I have enjoyed this forum the short time I've been on, glad that the "nit picking" is light and will keep on reading.

Thanks for sharing good advise!

 

[bonbean01]

We've looked into that grass as preventitive for worms...I'm the odd one out on here with doing the monthly garlic barrier and ACV drenching monthly...also as a preventitive for worms...it is not a wormer, but so far have not had to use chemical wormers and we do check eyelids often for signs of barberpole worms since that is the most common worm in our area...oh...and we don't have goats, we have hair sheep.

Also as a preventitive we've used pumpkin seeds and large yellow squash seeds. Again...none of these are wormers, only for helping prevention of worms. Our other method here is keeping their shelters and dry lot clean...removing the poopy and peed bedding out, putting down lime and then clean bedding.

We do have Cydectin on hand, but so far have not had to use it and we're going on 6 years of having sheep. If necessary, I would not hesitate to use it.

Bottom line...we all do what works for us...everyone has a different situation with their animals and because something works for one person does not mean it will work for others.

As for nit picking...I find it gives more opinions and options and things to consider. The more approaches and experiences makes for more learning in my opinion.

From my reading, Lespediza grass does not do well in our area which is too bad since the more worm prevention possible is our goal. Hair sheep are known for being fairly worm resistant, but not all animals are, so what works here may not work at all in another area with other animals.

 

[bcnewe2]

I'm the odd one out on here with doing the monthly garlic barrier and ACV drenching monthly...also as a preventative for worms...it is not a wormer, but so far have not had to use chemical wormer's and we do check eyelids often for signs of barber pole worms since that is the most common worm in our area...oh...and we don't have goats, we have hair sheep.

I'm glad that all those things combined are helping you keep your flock healthy. Keeping your numbers down and not overstocking your fields is one of the best preventatives, that and keeping a dry lot as clean as possible.

But just a cautionary tale....I have friends down in AR a very wormy area due to weather. big commercial flock of wool crosses. We ran into wormer resistant worms. Barber pole, which is quite deadly in lg. quantities.

FAMACHA did not work because by the time they are anemic it's almost to late to save them. Yes you can, but when dealing with a big flock you're going to have losses if you wait for the advanced symptoms. They did FAMACHA and garlic juice, AVA also tried copper boluses (it stayed in the gut not poisoning them) but their losses were high. They are now on a reg. worming schedule and have cut losses way back.

Natural is a great way to go, cull your heavy worm carries and build up a more resistant flock but....when needed I see no reason not to use an approved wormer.

Again, I've raised sheep for about 15 years, I don't do fecals I worm when needed or 2x's per year and have never lost a sheep to high worm load. I don't feel the need to confirm sheep carry worms. Management is my choice.

JMHO

 

[Pearce Pastures]

I do use chemical dewormers but I also know that some foods can lower a parasite count and can inhibit their reproduction and growth. I don't' think I would personally use them as a replacement for testing and treating when it is warranted but if a certain type of hay did have properties that aided in keeping parasites are bay, I would be interested in learning more. I go back and forth about DE and have not used it because we haven't had an issue that has me looking for other avenues to keep our parasite load at bay just yet. It would be great, once again, if a substantial study was done on its use in goats or other ruminants.

Education should be an ongoing thing when it comes to how we manage our animals and as new studies are done and findings are release, practices should change. The reason I am one to beat the "test before treating" drum is because when I first got started in goats, there was so much to learn and I remember going to the store, grabbing a pelleted dewormer, and dumping it into the feed trough---thought I was doing a good thing I didn't know that was a bad idea and that treating parasites that way not only not good for my own animals or my wallet, I was contributing to the resistant parasites issues we ALL have to deal with. That is based on current studies and I am all about keeping as current as I can. If I can help someone to not make the mistakes I made starting out, especially when it comes to parasite treatment practices since they do impact other people too, I will and I hope others would do the same for me still.

How we chose manage our farms is ultimately up to us individually but if we are on here to learn from each other, we should be willing to listen to people's ideas and reasoning without being dismissive or condescending about the advice given by others. I am very grateful to the folks here who have for years now helped me to modify my practices. By all means, please share and I will be the first in line to read it and learn.