Livestock Guardian Dogs?? Should I get one? (more pics)

[dianneS]

Okay, I met some puppies this afternoon and the father of the pups.

They are amazing dogs! The three puppies that are available are currently living with goats and chickens and some steers. They stay with the goats though. They are basically goats in dog suits! Two pups went with the goats up over the hill and out into the pasture while one pup stayed behind with the remaining goats in the pen!

One puppy, that the owner is keeping, was in another pasture with some steers and goats. That puppy stuck right with those goats, only running after a heron that landed near the pond.

The big Daddy dog was awesome. He greeted us in his pasture with his tail wagging and stood there and enjoyed us petting his enormous head a while before he headed back to his herd. He spotted a hawk and kept his eye on it until it flew away. He laid in the goat pen for a while, then went up the hill to the goats, finally ran back down the hill to say goodbye to us before we left the pasture and then back out to the goats!

I met the three puppies up close and they were very friendly (jumped up a lot) but when we left their area, they went back to their goats and got back to work. I only barking when they spotted some mice under the goat pen.

I'm still undecided and have some phone calls to make before I make my decision. I'm calling a member of the Karakachan Dog Association with more questions.

Still unsure at this time, but I'm really impressed with these dogs so far!

 

[dianneS]

Oh, there is one concern though. The owner/breeder of these dogs told me that they need no training????

Apparently Karakachens are just bred to do their jobs and its instinctive. If they are kept with goats/sheep etc from birth, they need no training at all. She said that with her first Karakachen, she was told by the breeder to take him home and throw him in the pasture. She did, and he did great! He just got a little beat up by the goats is all.

I don't know if I like the idea of just turning a dog loose with my goats???
That's why I'm calling the Karakachen Dog Association for some more advice and guidance.

 

[lupinfarm]

You can have the one that has been plaguing us. We have an Akbash breeder on a road over from us and he lets his Akbash's roam 700 acres with his cows/sheep/goats/chickens and that stupid dog has been coming up and bothering our goats, and dogs every night.

 

[Roll farms]

ALL LGD need some 'training' to know what's acceptable and what isn't.
I guarantee you any pup, regardless of breed, will chase / play rough (sometimes too rough) with any critter that runs by while it's still a puppy.
We let ours know early on that that's NOT ok.

ALL LGD need monitored in new situations...new goats added, new babies born.

I've heard horror stories of "terrible dogs who ate a newborn kid." and all I ever think is, "Who's the idiot who left a dog alone w/ a pregnant doe w/out being certain he'd be ok w/ the situation???"

Don't ASSume that just b/c they can make great guardians, that they will be...some just aren't, and never will be. (Just like some greyhounds won't run and some beagles won't hunt.)

IMHO, it's usually the people who don't monitor / correct who generally have the horror stories to tell.

It really sounds like you're doing lots of research and trying to learn...I think you'll do fine.

I'm sure there probably are some LGD who just got tossed in the pen and did fine...But I'm not trusting my animals to that.

 

[dianneS]

I guess the breeder did tell me that I need to correct the pup if it does chase after something I don't want it to chase. She's said they get the hint very quickly. She just said that they don't need any "formal" training.

She also told me no obedience training at all and don't teach them to walk on a leash. Have the farm vet take care of them, don't take them to the vets office.

That is also a concern for me.

I'm getting the impression that LGD are to stay with the herd, protect the herd and have little to no interaction with humans. I've also read that this can make them a potential danger to strange humans, animals, pets etc.

If you do socialize a LGD then it is worthless as a guardian because it won't stay with the herd. But wouldn't it still identify fox, raccoons, skunks, etc as predators and chase them away? Don't all dogs do that? My small dogs do, I'm just concerned that my small dogs will get hurt.

I'm just not sure if my goats are really in that much jeopardy of being harmed by preditors (my chickens are though!) that they would need a full time guardian with them. I think a pet dog to patrol the property that could chase away the occasional fox, but know enough not to go after the goats or chickens would be fine. I would like to have a dog to protect the house from human intruders too and a LGD out in the fields would not be much good in that department.

 

[Roll farms]

I'm not trying to influence your decision, just offering info on how we've dealt w/ things as they've come up...I knew we needed one (or three...or 16 once the pups arrived, lol)

We lead trained our first one, then didn't bother w/ the other 2.
Ours have to be knocked out (happy pills) to go to the vet. They just WON'T willingly leave the herd, and I don't like to stress them by forcing the issue...I usually just have the vet give them shots here. On the rare occasion we have to take them to town, it's a PIA.

I want mine to chase off strange humans...they don't need to be near my barn. I guarantee you if someone is trying to break into my house, if they hear them...they will probably go.....they're not going to KNOW the dogs can't get to them.

Our worst threat here (to the goats) is other people's dogs. Idiot neighbors who let theirs roam, etc. We've lost house pets to them and a pregnant doe lost her kids to one. We are in coyote country but haven't seen ANY since Razor got here.
Occasionally we find a dead possum or (yay) skunk waiting for us in the morning, even one fool musk rat.
Razor stands by them until we see he 'did his job' and reward him w/ a pat and a 'good boy', toss the varmint, and then he comes in for breakfast.

I wouldn't formally obedience train them but mine know sit, stay, come, NO, and most importantly, DOWN.

Our older male comes into the barn to eat, when he's finished he sits his head in my lap as I milk and pays me w/ a big wet dog belch. I KNOW that boy loves me, we just don't have to get all sloppy and mushy about it. A pat on the head or a belly rub now and then is all he needs.

The female will let me do anything I need to to her.
She growls at strangers who came to see pups, but lets me tote them around.

We didn't spend hours a day w/ ours, but they're social w/ us, tolerant of visitors who go to the barn w/ us, and know we are "the boss(es)".

Don't contemplate getting one as a 'yard dog' b/c LGD by nature patrol territories. With no fence for a boundary, they will keep widening the territory to include your neighbors', etc.

 

[lupinfarm]

I guess the breeder did tell me that I need to correct the pup if it does chase after something I don't want it to chase. She's said they get the hint very quickly. She just said that they don't need any "formal" training.

She also told me no obedience training at all and don't teach them to walk on a leash. Have the farm vet take care of them, don't take them to the vets office.

That is also a concern for me.

I'm getting the impression that LGD are to stay with the herd, protect the herd and have little to no interaction with humans. I've also read that this can make them a potential danger to strange humans, animals, pets etc.

If you do socialize a LGD then it is worthless as a guardian because it won't stay with the herd. But wouldn't it still identify fox, raccoons, skunks, etc as predators and chase them away? Don't all dogs do that? My small dogs do, I'm just concerned that my small dogs will get hurt.

I'm just not sure if my goats are really in that much jeopardy of being harmed by preditors (my chickens are though!) that they would need a full time guardian with them. I think a pet dog to patrol the property that could chase away the occasional fox, but know enough not to go after the goats or chickens would be fine. I would like to have a dog to protect the house from human intruders too and a LGD out in the fields would not be much good in that department.

Just wanted to say.. The Akbash that "visits" us, while I don't appreciate him bothering my animals, I have been able to catch him, pet him, and he is not agressive. He has had no formal training, they just throw theirs out with their herd to begin with (with supervision) during the day, and eventually they are out all the time.

 

[dianneS]

Well, that's good to know lupinfarm.

I just took my Cavalier King Charles Spaniel out to the goat pasture today to see how the goats react to him. They weren't thrilled by his presence, but not really frightened of him at all.

He doesn't have a clue what to do out there! Its really funny! He's afraid of the goats actually, but loves to chase squirrels and anything else. He's certainly not "patrolling" the pasture. He's really just sitting out there waiting for me to come get him. He's no LGD that's for sure!

He's enjoying the sun and chasing bugs, barking at the chickens. I'm enjoying not having to wonder where he's wandered off to now! I'm waiting to see if he gets head butted and then runs off to hid under a bush! He's a real sissy!

Watching him makes me want a LGD!

 

[dianneS]

Rollfarms, that's all very informative.

I would like to have a dog that is leash trained, can sit, stay and lie down as well as know not to jump up.

I imagine that if we got a LGD, it would be somewhat social, because our goats are social. When anyone goes to the fence the goats come running for attention and most of all animal crackers! If the dog were with them I guess he would learn to tolerate people on the other side of the fence.

I guess my biggest concern at this point is that I don't want a potential liability on my property. It sounds like they are just not that aggressive that they go looking for trouble.

I was thinking that even if the dog were out at the barn, that he would still be a deterent to strangers lurking around the house. Our barn isn't all that far from the house anyway. The worst threat to our goats would be other people's dogs too. We don't have any issues at this time, but I hear quite a few on the other side of the creek that sound big enough to take down a goat. The coyotes are getting worse and worse in surrounding areas as well, so I only imagine that its just a matter of time til we see them here.

If I were to get this puppy neutered, could I take him to the vet right away before he gets too attached to his new herd?

BTW I had to bring my Cavalier in from the goat pasture! The goats got used to him and started pushing him around! I heard a yelp and went to rescue him!

 

[ksalvagno]

I don't have an LGD but it is my understanding that strangers wouldn't be able to just go up to your fence and see the goats without you present. Any farm that I have been on with an LGD, if I'm not with the owner, the dog makes it clear to stay away. I don't even go near a fence. So if you have people just going up to your goat fence without you there, that could be a problem. Especially once the LGD really integrates with herd and considers it his own.

I don't have an LGD because I admit I don't want to take the time to train the dog. I have guard llamas instead. With the guard llamas, they either have the instinct or they don't. No training involved. But if a pack of dogs or at least more than one dog was involved, the llamas probably wouldn't be able to take care of that.