New LGD puppy. :D

[dianneS]

LGD owners don't like to talk about it because they think their dog is "defective" or something, but the fact of the matter seems to be that *a lot* of folks end up buying LGDs from noobie LGD owners/breeders with instructions that go something like:

"This dog is magic. It's made of magic, and it runs on magic. Do not interfere with the magic that is your new dog. If you pet and/or love on the dog, the magic will disappear. The dog will magically know what to do, now, forever, and always, and will never need any correction. Toss it in the goat pen, stand back, and watch the magic happen."

For some dogs, that may be true. They may never make a mistake nor require any correction.. For a good many more, however, it's just not true at all. And when it turns out to NOT be true for a given dog, nobody has answers because...well...they're *supposed* to be magic!...right?

That is exactly what I was told. The woman who sold him to me told me that her male was just tossed in the goat pen at 5 months old and he did his job. She told me not to interfere with him, do not "train" him, just let him run on instincts. That may have been true for her dog, but not for mine. So, she began blaming the great pyr blood in her female for the difficulty I was having?


My pup did have very good instincts in the beginning, but when he hit that adolescent stage, things kind of went haywire. Also, the introduction of new goats sort of messed with his head too. We now have a system for introducing new goats. Alex gets tied to a tree where he can see what's going on. The goats get to know one another and once they work out their herd dynamic, then Alex gets to meet the goats. It works just fine. Every new goat I've introduced has never seen a LGD before so they are easily intimidated by a dog and Alex as a puppy, would take full advantage of that, chasing them of course.

The last two goats I introduced were fainters. We had no problem at all introducing them. The dog scared them, they fainted, the dog stepped over them and continued on his way. Nothing very exciting about a goat lying on the ground. Now when the fainters fall over, Alex checks on them to see if they're okay, but he really doesn't fuss with them much and the goats are perfectly comfortable with the dog now, walking under his belly and lying down with him.

I have to say the introduction of a big, full-sized, horned and mean doe really helped Alex with his training! She was a god-send. All of my goats are dwarf breeds except for her. She keeps that dog in his place! She would chase, head-butt and even bite him, pulling out big tufts of his fur! They get along pretty well now and play together a lot. She wears him out for me!

Oh, BTW I only have one LGD, but when I went to see Alex and his littermates, I watched them work as a team. Even though Karakachan's are supposed to stay close with the herd, when there are more than one of them with the goats, one will hang back with the goats while the other heads out and patrols. It was neat to watch. Some of the goats left their shelter and two pups took off with them while the other hung back with the remaining goats.

@ Beekissed: He's 3/4 Karakachan and 1/4 Great Pyr.

 

[jodief100]

I bought two adult LGDs that had lived with goats their whole lives. I suspect that was the ONLY honest thing the owner told me about them. The male was about a year and the female 3. They had obviously never been off the farm they had been born on. They were TERRIFIED the entire trip home. We pulled the car up to the pen and opened the back. They just lay there sprawled on the floor of the car in a crouch low because everything is scary position. Then they saw the goats. The hopped out and got right to work. It was like a hey, I know what to do here! moment. The female was skittish, afraid of people and wouldnt let any men near here, just me. The male was rambunctious and tried to play with the goats. He needed some discipline and to be taught his boundaries but now they are wonderful. They work great in a team. One will run the boundaries while the other will watch from a high position and round up the goats if needed. It is fascinating to watch. They will both come up and ask for head scratches and pets and then go back to work. Snowy, the female still doesnt like strangers but she is good with us.

We were told the same thing; let them go they know what to do. Junior needed to learn not to chase goats. He still does it every now and them but is just starting to outgrow his teenage years at three. The goats will lie down and snuggle with him. Snowy is more of the fence patrol type.

I did speak with someone last year who has researched LGDs for 30 years all over the world. He said any breed will make a good LGD if the dog is introduced to the guarded animals young (3 weeks old is ideal) and is disciplined properly.

 

[cmjust0]

That is exactly what I was told. The woman who sold him to me told me that her male was just tossed in the goat pen at 5 months old and he did his job. She told me not to interfere with him, do not "train" him, just let him run on instincts. That may have been true for her dog, but not for mine.

That's what we were told when we got Mischa @ 5-1/2mos, and we did pitch her right on out there.. Never have I seen a dog so happy to see a bunch of goats.

Still...we knew better than to *expect* everything to be trouble-free. We've been lucky so far, but she's super rowdy sometimes...with Ivan! If she were out there by herself in the wound-up, teenaged, bored-silly, weather-cooling-off mentality, there would almost certainly be some goat chasin' going on.

But she has Ivan to play with.

So, she began blaming the great pyr blood in her female for the difficulty I was having?

Pyr owners here know that I was never a big fan of Pyrs before Mischigirl, and I'm still of the opinion that Pyrs -- on the whole -- just ain't what they used to be. I'm not the only one who feels that way, which may be why his breeder was quick to blame the Pyr blood..

I've heard *a bunch* of horror stories about Pyrs.. Seen too many craigslist ads for "has killed goats"/"has killed chickens" Pyrs.. I knew a guy who had a Pyr that picked out *one* goat to try and kill for no apparent reason at all, and thus had to be chained 24/7 because the goat happened to be more important than the dog. Then there was the comment from the vet who did Ivan's surgery; he asked if Ivan was wary of strangers and I'm like "uhhhh YES." He said "Well, this kind of dog probably should be. The Great Pyrenees used to be that way until people started making housedogs out of them" -- and it wasn't said kindly. The people who bred Ivan started with Pyrs, too, and when I told her I was looking at Mischa she warned me about her very bad experiences with Pyrs...which was why they got into Sarplaninacs.

Through Mischa, though, what I've come to believe is that it's not a matter of the Pyr breed having been made unsuitable for LGD work, per se, but more like they've been bred so indescriminately that they're pretty hit or miss these days. Some are awesome; some are totally unsuitable. With other less common LGD breeds, you could probably still take the average dog of the breed and be reasonably assured that it's gonna work out ok as a guardian.. Not so with Pyrs, I don't think...I think when you're looking at a Pyr, it's of the *utmost importance* to be able to see working parents, talk to folks who have bought pups from previous litters, etc.

To be fair, though, Mischa's daddy was a really, really good fullblood Pyr. Not as aggressive as what I'm used to, but he was pretty big and wary and aloof. Mischa's mama was a big dollbaby, though...came right to the fence like PET ME, PET ME! -- she's 50% Pyr/50% Sarplaninac.

(...from what I saw of Ivan's breeder's stock, plus Mischa's mom, plus talking to the owner of a blood sister to Ivan, males vs. females in Sarplaninacs seem to be pretty night and day...males very aggro, females very friendly... )

Mischa's daddy stayed back and barked...for about 30 seconds. I walked over to the fence to pet mama, and daddy casually wandered over to investigate. I could tell he wanted me to pet him, too. The owner said "She'll let you pet her, but he might bi...oh, ok well...I guess not" -- I was already scratching him under the chin.



I explained that I'm kinda sorta used to a much bigger, much warier, much more aggressive dog and the guy just kinda looked at me like he didn't know there was such a thing. Said the guy who helps him out on the farm has been coming there for a couple of years and *still* can't get in the pen with that dog.

Wuss.

I'd have gone in there that day if it wasn't so muddy.

Anyway.. Some Pyrs are fantastic; some Pyrs are horrific. That's my opinion.




Oh, hey...meant to ask....is Alex fixed? If not... hehehe ...crossing a female Ivan/Mischa pup to Alex would yield 31.25% Pyr/37.5% Karakachan/31.25% Sarplaninac babies. That's about as close to thirds as it gets...could be a VERY interesting hybrid.

Jes sayin'.

 

[dianneS]

I've heard that about Pyrs, that they're being treated as pets and losing their instincts to be good guardians.

I have no idea where the woman who bred Alex got her 1/2 great pyr 1/2 Karakachan mamma dog? I'm not sure if that dog was local, but Alex's Dad came from Indiana. I know that the only great pyr's I've met locally are all pets. This woman's great pyr/karakachan became a serious chicken killer after having her first litter of pups. She had to be re-homed to a farm without birds.

Apparently quite a few people have had trouble with Alex's siblings, but I think they just gave up too soon. One woman bought a pup and tried to keep it as a pet. Apparently it didn't work out either, and the dog was offered for free on craigslist.

LGD's are not very common in my area. Most people have never heard of such a thing and keeping a dog outside 24/7 is considered cruel. People ask me often if I bring Alex inside at night. When I tell them no, he never comes in the house, they look at me like I'm the most horrible person in the world.

Alex is not fixed, we never really found it necessary. He calmed down without neutering. So he is fully intact and my husband and I are glad we kept him that way since he is doing such a good job, we think he's worth breeding some day.

 

[Beekissed]

Surprisingly enough, more and more people feel like keeping an animal outside is cruel. Even in the very rural area in which I live.

I get those comments all the time and I even had a lady tell me that she wouldn't let me have a kitten because I wouldn't keep it inside. She was afraid it would get killed in the big, bad outdoors.

That same kitten was killed by her own dog several days later...

I don't know when and where people lost the common sense to recognize fur is for living outdoors. For thousands of years these animals have lived in all weathers outdoors like God intended....why now do people think they know better than the Almighty?

 

[ksalvagno]

Around here there are A LOT of dogs that are kept on a chain to a dog house 24x7. That I think is cruel. They get very little attention and you can't guard anything when you are on a chain. They are also constantly barking so you really couldn't even say they are good for letting you know someone is coming. I'm at the point that I don't hear it much anymore but you can hear constant barking in the distance at my place.

I do know lots of people who have LGD's or outside dogs that run the property and are very happy healthy dogs. You have to stop and really look at the quality of life, not if they are inside or outside.

 

[jodief100]

I will admit I felt a little guilty about keeping dogs outside all the time at first. I know a working dog has to stay outside; it needs to build up a coat and tolerance to the weather. Eventually I learned that a working dog wants to stay outside and work. I found that most rescue groups will not adopt a dog to someone to use as a working dog. They are constantly getting dogs that have to be rehomed due to working dog behaviors that are not acceptable to people wanting house pets, yet they refuse to do what is best for the dog, find a home where their instincts are desired. This is based on the belief outside=cruel.

I think we as producers who depend on these dogs need to work on educating people that our dogs live full and happy lives outside. That there is a huge difference between someone in the city who keeps their pet outside, by itself with nothing to do and someone who keeps a working dog outside and stimulated with work and the company of other animals.

I mentioned this because animal welfare groups are trying and succeeding in some cases of imposing restrictive rules to protect livestock. It is imposing an undue hardship on producers due to the average persons ignorance. While they do not always succeed with livestock, they may succeed with dogs. Most people view them anthropomorphically and their ignorance here could be very detrimental to our way of life.

Educate and inform! We must be diligent to protect our way of life! We take of our dogs, in some cases better than house dogs. People need to know and understand this.

And I will step down from my soapbox now, please forgive me..

 

[Roll farms]

 

[cmjust0]

I'll second the

We got Ivan in the summer.. I kinda wondered if I'd feel bad for him in the winter when it got cold (which is when most people think it's cruel to leave a dog out) but the colder it got, the more hyper he got.

He's never happier than to be covered with frost. Literally, his guard hairs frost over because he just lays all sprawled out in the barnyard like...aaaaaahhhhhhhhh...this is nice! Thing is, he'll frost over and keep a frost all night.

Still, I have people kinda cringe when they hear about him collecting frost.. I have to explain that the reason he frosts over is because his body heat isn't escaping his coat to melt it. **He's weatherproof.** Most folks get it then, but it's not uncommon for folks to be like "Still, I don't think I could do it...I'd have to bring him in" or something like that, and so I ask:

Can you imagine what it would be like to have to wear a snowsuit in the house -- all the time?

That usually does it.

 

[aggieterpkatie]

I have to explain that the reason he frosts over is because his body heat isn't escaping his coat to melt it. **He's weatherproof.**

Exactly. People just don't get it.


There are some cases where it's cruel to keep animals outside all the time. Some dogs like sighthounds (with little to no body fat) and brachycephalic breeds just can't tolerate extreme temps at all.

I get extremely irritated at rescue groups who have LGD breeds and insist the dog must be kept inside. What is wrong with the dog doing what it was bred to do?!!