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[Deecarter]

I find the tsc hay too course and blasted for my goats to want to eat it-also very expensive-but that is a source of calcium if free fed and they actually eat it. Whatever works for you!
You may want to move onto ruling out meningeal worm, polio, or listeriosis for the weird very concerning symptoms she's displaying, but calcium and a good protein source is a good first step for conditioning. The next step is running a fecal-maybe looking up meadow mist lab might help you if your vet is too pricy. For me only liver flukes can squeak by in one, but I do my own.
Good grain, good hay, additional alfalfa, and a low worm count are the best you can do for conditioning a goat.

Something I missed, but you may want to rule out cae and johnnes (and cl while you're at it, as it doesn't add much price wise). Wasting and some neurological symptoms can be displayed by affected individuals. If you are dealing with either of those two you are fighting losing battle unfortunately and it's better to know.

My goats love it, but I agree it is expensive and there's a lot of waste, but I am having trouble finding good quality alfalfa hay. I'd like the 2nd cutting as I've read it is more nutritious? I would like to buy a round bale and just store it in the barn. I fear it is meningeal worm. I am going to follow the directions for that and see if I can get an improvement, but the article says the nerve damage is not reversible. That's awful! After she kidded last fall is when this started and the vet gave me a lot of medication to treat her and the rest of the goats including wormers and antibiotics. I wormed again about 6 weeks later, so I feel I have done nothing but worm them since I bought them. I bought a microscope but I haven't had time to try it out yet. It all seems very overwhelming, especially when I already have a sick goat. It's very discouraging. I feel I am just spending hundreds of dollars and can't get a healthy herd going. I should have been more cautious with my purchase. Just too trusting. And I really think it could be the deer population on our property along with the creek. I have a garden and I can attest to the fact we have loads of slugs and snails.

 

[Mini Horses]

Ok...I have goats but, not a vet...so my concerns, if It were my goat would be these.

Looking at what you say -- does she circle or push her head on things, walls, etc?

CAE and listeria can present in similar traits. But CAE is most often seen in front legs, at least in beginning. Also heavy load of stomach worms can present many traits of listeriosis. Most often listeriosis is found in mature rather than young goats. This is something in soil most everywhere. Just trying to think out loud for "most probable".
that would result in these symptoms.

When was she last wormed and with what? Have you give her thiamin? You can get a strong B- complex at TSC. Heavy dose it. CMPK has stronger concentrates of minerals, can be gotten as tube product. You say this has been going on for several months, now getting worse or has it been progressively ? Other than what you have out for them, your normal feeding routine, have you given her any other meds, supplements? This is asked only so we can "be there" with what you have tried, to offer more help or ideas.

We're the kids fine at birth and first few weeks? At approx what time after kidding did you notice these issues start with the doe?

 

[Mini Horses]

We were typing at same time Some questions were answered.

 

[Mini Horses]

Did your vet treat for minengeal worms? To some degree nerve damage is compromised for a while, sometimes forever. Severity and location play a role in regeneration of nerves. Does she have any patches of lost hair?


Reportedly ducks love snails and slugs.

 

[Deecarter]

Ok...I have goats but, not a vet...so my concerns, if It were my goat would be these.

Looking at what you say -- does she circle or push her head on things, walls, etc?

CAE and listeria can present in similar traits. But CAE is most often seen in front legs, at least in beginning. Also heavy load of stomach worms can present many traits of listeriosis. Most often listeriosis is found in mature rather than young goats. This is something in soil most everywhere. Just trying to think out loud for "most probable".
that would result in these symptoms.

When was she last wormed and with what? Have you give her thiamin? You can get a strong B- complex at TSC. Heavy dose it. CMPK has stronger concentrates of minerals, can be gotten as tube product. You say this has been going on for several months, now getting worse or has it been progressively ? Other than what you have out for them, your normal feeding routine, have you given her any other meds, supplements? This is asked only so we can "be there" with what you have tried, to offer more help or ideas.

We're the kids fine at birth and first few weeks? At approx what time after kidding did you notice these issues start with the doe?

Thanks so much for your reply. She doesn't go in a circle or push her head against anything. It doesn't seem to be getting worse in Sadie Rose. I just can't get weight on her, but her doe kid is showing new symptoms. The kids have been fine except the one up until yesterday. The momma, Sadie Rose started her symptoms apparently from my records around the first or second week of January, which would have been a little over a couple of months after giving birth. The more I read on the internet the more freaked out I'm getting, and I've just about decided to call the vet and have him test her for CAE/OPP, CL, Johne's Disease, Q-Fever, Brucellosis and Tuberculosis because I HAVE to know what is going on and frankly I'm seriously worried about what it is. I've pulled my record book and this is what I have experienced since I purchased these two Nubians from the same owner, but they are not sisters. The sick one is Sadie Rose, born 11/18/2017. She is ADGA registered purebred Nubian. I purchased them in September of last year and gave them a CD&T vaccine the first week. The next month, (4 weeks later on October 20, 2020) Sadie Rose gave birth to 2 healthy does without incident. The babies received their CD&T at the correct times and were disbudded. The next day I gave Sadie Rose worm medicine but it was in pellet form and mixed in with the feed. I don't think this was strong enough because on January 14 I administered Corrid orally, the pelleted wormer and selenium because she was walking funny and by that I mean the weakness in the back legs like she was drunk. Her coat looked rough and dull and her poop was clumpy. The next day she was not better so I called the vet and he didn't see her but prescribed the following which I picked up and started administering the next day. A bladder stone supplement to balance PH, 4 intramuscular injections and 1 subcutaneous injection and 2 oral meds which consisted of antibiotics, pain medication, Ivermectin wormer, steroid, and Vitamin B complex with iron. Her babies and the other doe were also treated with everything except with oral treatments. Then on 2/23/21 I treated with fenbendazole 5cc once a day through 2/25/21 and tmp-smztmp 2 tablets. once a day through 2/27/21. One is a dewormer and the other an antibiotic. This was done through the vet as a follow-up sort of like a booster shot. I also started mixing food grade diatomaceous earth in their feed. I have really notice how shiny and smooth their coats are now and their poop looks great, but it never looked really bad, only Sadie Rose's poop got clumpy. The other goats look fat and good. I thought the worming problem was taken care of and possibly Sadie Rose had some kind of residual effect but yesterday when her 8 month old doe kid started walking funny and has fallen down a couple of times, I thought 'nope' this is something else. A couple of days before the doe kid started that, I noticed a smaller than dime sized place on her back end near the hip bones that looked raw. I thought it was strange, but figured she injured it somehow and put antiseptic on it, and the next day it was already healed up. It wasn't deep at all; just a raw place. I don't know if it's related or not. Otherwise she is fat and her coat looks great. I took a picture of her back end because I've noticed her holding her tail to the left side as you face her rear. I pushed it and wiggled it and it just goes back to the left. I really think this is a clue because she seems to want to twist slightly to the left, and as I mentioned has fallen down a couple of times because she seems unsteady. It really is like the spinal column is wanting to bend that way. That's why now, I am thinking Johne's Disease and am really freaking out. I wish I could post the short video of Sadie Rose walking, but I will post the picture of her doe kid that shows her tail being held to one side. Thank you so much for listening to my story and for any suggestions you may have. I've been up until all hours reading and trying to figure this out. It's nice to have other people to talk to about things that are stressing me out.

 

[Deecarter]

Did your vet treat for minengeal worms? To some degree nerve damage is compromised for a while, sometimes forever. Severity and location play a role in regeneration of nerves. Does she have any patches of lost hair?


Reportedly ducks love snails and slugs.

Yes! We were typing at the same time. I'm sorry I'm all over the place. I think I've answered all your questions, now. Soooo, what do you think? I'm not sure which worms he treated for. He only told me he was throwing everything he could to save her life. He gave me a bladder stone supplement to balance PH, 4 intramuscular injections and 1 subcutaneous injection and 2 oral meds which consisted of antibiotics, pain medication, Ivermectin wormer, steroid, and Vitamin B complex with iron. Her babies and the other doe were also treated with everything except with oral treatments. Then on 2/23/21 I treated with fenbendazole 5cc once a day through 2/25/21 and tmp-smztmp 2 tablets. once a day through 2/27/21. One is a dewormer and the other an antibiotic. This was done through the vet as a follow-up sort of like a booster shot. I also started mixing food grade diatomaceous earth in their feed. I have read that with minengeal worms, the damage can be permanent. She does not have any patches of lost hair. Her coat did look very rough and dull, but looks pretty good now. It has a shine to it. She's just skinny and still walks like she's drunk. She still seems weak in the back legs and walks with her back legs listing to the left. I thought it was a residual effect from nearly dying from coccidiosis but now that her doe kid is showing symptoms, I'm worried. Thanks.

 

[Baymule]

I’m glad you are getting some help. These are members here that are very knowledgeable with their goats. I have sheep, even though sheep and goats share many of the same diseases, I have no experience with them. This is a great forum and I’m glad you found us.

 

[misfitmorgan]

Goats have a steep learning curve and we have all been thru it ourselves. It is a struggle in the beginning but you will get thru it eventually. Have the fecals done so you know where you stand with the worms, it is fairly cheap if you ship the samples off. If all looks good on the worms you know those issues should not get worse at least.

Definitely wean the kids, as long as everyone can walk and get to feed they should be ok. Over time if you can cull your herd to select for resistance. It is likely her lack of condition is directly related to the kids being on her 6 months past when they should have been weaned. In relation to humans this would basically be like breast feeding your kid until they are like 8-10years old, anyone would have a hard time keeping weight on and many other medical issues at that point I think.

 

[farmerjan]

I don't have goats, we have hair sheep. We have had Johnes in both sheep and cattle over the years. The ram developed Johnes at 5-6 years old... don't know where he got it, we raised him from a lamb. He is the only one that ever has tested positive for it so a "freak case"... but the one thing that Johnes will almost always show is runny, loose manure. Both in cattle and sheep. And he wanted to eat all the time.. even when his legs got weak and he laid around. Never saw much of the "circling" ...but the loose runny manure was the tip off and is very prominent.
I had a heifer that got Johnes, and she also got very loose runny manure... more than normal ploppy cow manure... and she got thin and ate constantly.
One other thing that is typical of Johnes, there is usually a trigger to cause it to become full fledged case... Calving/kidding/lambing... is very common to trigger the dormant virus to flair up. Once typical symptoms show, they usually don't last very long. A bull we bought once and then put in with cattle to breed seemed to be the trigger and in 3 months he was thin and looking poor and his titers were off the charts when the vet took blood.

Not saying this is not a possibility, but I think that if the manure is mostly normal, it would be lower on my suspect list. Also, once they get the classic symptoms, they do not usually linger for months. It also does not usually show symptoms that young... so wouldn't think that the young doe would be showing. Again, it does not mean they can't have it.
I think a complete blood test would be in your best interest at this point... to find out what all they might.... and might not have.

 

[Deecarter]

I don't have goats, we have hair sheep. We have had Johnes in both sheep and cattle over the years. The ram developed Johnes at 5-6 years old... don't know where he got it, we raised him from a lamb. He is the only one that ever has tested positive for it so a "freak case"... but the one thing that Johnes will almost always show is runny, loose manure. Both in cattle and sheep. And he wanted to eat all the time.. even when his legs got weak and he laid around. Never saw much of the "circling" ...but the loose runny manure was the tip off and is very prominent.
I had a heifer that got Johnes, and she also got very loose runny manure... more than normal ploppy cow manure... and she got thin and ate constantly.
One other thing that is typical of Johnes, there is usually a trigger to cause it to become full fledged case... Calving/kidding/lambing... is very common to trigger the dormant virus to flair up. Once typical symptoms show, they usually don't last very long. A bull we bought once and then put in with cattle to breed seemed to be the trigger and in 3 months he was thin and looking poor and his titers were off the charts when the vet took blood.

Not saying this is not a possibility, but I think that if the manure is mostly normal, it would be lower on my suspect list. Also, once they get the classic symptoms, they do not usually linger for months. It also does not usually show symptoms that young... so wouldn't think that the young doe would be showing. Again, it does not mean they can't have it.
I think a complete blood test would be in your best interest at this point... to find out what all they might.... and might not have.

I agree about the poop. I read that goats don't always show that sign, however. I've been up all night reading and trying to figure it out and I think I should just come off the pocket book and see what's going on through fecal samples and blood draws. I read there is no test for meaningeal worms, though, and that's disappointing because that's one of the main things I need tested for. Should I have all of them tested for CAE, Johne's Disease and CL? I read an article that said tuberculosis and brucellosis is not a threat in the US in goats and sheeps but should I requested that test also?