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[rachels.haven]

Thanks. I am finding out I am doing many things wrong. I ready an article today that said I shouldn't put alfalfa hay out as free choice. I have been giving them small amounts in the morning and the evening to get them used to it and planning on buying a round bale to leave out, but this article said that wouldn't be good. I also read their diet should be 50% hay, 20% grain, 25% pasture, and maybe 5% treats. I've only been giving them a small amount of hay in the morning and evening and thought the pasture and brush in the woods would be sufficient in the summer. I like the idea you have on giving alfalfa pellets because there would be very little waste. Do they eat it well? About how much do they eat of that? Also could you tell me what kind of hay I can get with a round bale that would be healthy for them? My poor goats are suffering through my learning process. BTW, they seem to be perking up and getting better, so I'm thankful for that.

You can totally feed alfalfa hay free choice. It is part of the hay. I'm not sure about those ratios either. Free choice hay or good pasture (alfalfa hay included) all they want, then a quart or so of grain on the stand when milking. I give a "treat" of an animal cracker to get them off the stand. You don't need treats. They like them. Alfalfa hay is a mess, but is basically the same as alfalfa pellets. Or for bigger stock, cubes. So we feed it.

If you're in GA, look up perennial peanut hay. A lot of goaties feed it.

I use these for hay.

X-Tuff Single Sided Hay Feeder

Very strong galvanized metal feeder for sheep and goats. Thick welded rod withstands heavy abuse from rams and bucks.

www.premier1supplies.com

I wish I'd bought something for a bigger herd. now I have a herd of feeders too to go with my herd of goats, but they ARE mobile and tough as nails. I spring snap them to the fence or they can go over a wall of a stall. But if your hay is too coarse or undesirable for them, they will waste it all looking for that one good piece and feeder type won't matter. Softer=less waste. Expensive, yes, but actually cheaper when waste is considered. The waste issue is also how pellets wind up not being as expensive on paper as they seem up front.

The medicated feed is for coccidia. I don't use it.

If you want to feed a vitamin supplement, I recommend weekly (or monthly, depending on preference) replamin gel. It has more selenium than selenium gel for goats, and a lot of other vitamins to cover bases. I liked what it did for my herd. As soon as I'm organized again I'll probably use it again. We also use sweetlix meatmaker for loose minerals. Bolusing for copper is something we do, as is bose shots...but the soil is stripped here so we need a lot of vitamin help.

 

[Deecarter]

You can totally feed alfalfa hay free choice. It is part of the hay. I'm not sure about those ratios either. Free choice hay or good pasture (alfalfa hay included) all they want, then a quart or so of grain on the stand when milking. I give a "treat" of an animal cracker to get them off the stand. You don't need treats. They like them. Alfalfa hay is a mess, but is basically the same as alfalfa pellets. Or for bigger stock, cubes. So we feed it.

If you're in GA, look up perennial peanut hay. A lot of goaties feed it.

I use these for hay.

X-Tuff Single Sided Hay Feeder

Very strong galvanized metal feeder for sheep and goats. Thick welded rod withstands heavy abuse from rams and bucks.

www.premier1supplies.com

I wish I'd bought something for a bigger herd. now I have a herd of feeders too to go with my herd of goats, but they ARE mobile and tough as nails. I spring snap them to the fence or they can go over a wall of a stall. But if your hay is too coarse or undesirable for them, they will waste it all looking for that one good piece and feeder type won't matter. Softer=less waste. Expensive, yes, but actually cheaper when waste is considered. The waste issue is also how pellets wind up not being as expensive on paper as they seem up front.

The medicated feed is for coccidia. I don't use it.

If you want to feed a vitamin supplement, I recommend weekly (or monthly, depending on preference) replamin gel. It has more selenium than selenium gel for goats, and a lot of other vitamins to cover bases. I liked what it did for my herd. As soon as I'm organized again I'll probably use it again. We also use sweetlix meatmaker for loose minerals. Bolusing for copper is something we do, as is bose shots...but the soil is stripped here so we need a lot of vitamin help.

Yes, I don't see what it would hurt to feed the alfalfa hay free choice. I have a hay rack in one stall of my barn that looks exactly like the one you posted a link to. I have been feeding small amounts of the Tractor Supply compressed bale morning and evening and a handful of the alfalfa pellets mixed with their feed to get all of them used to it but I haven't decided which one to go with. I like the idea of the hay free choice because the pellets are really more expensive in my opinion since they have to have so much of it per day. A 40 pound bag at Tractor Supply is $20.00 so if they each need about 4 pounds a day, I will go through a lot of those in a month. The nearest place I can buy peanut hay is a 4 hour drive, so that's out of the question. If I go with the alfalfa hay, I don't have to use another type of hay, do I? This is so crazy to me but I paid for a consultation to our vet last Friday and showed him a video of my young doe that was acting strange and he said it could be listeriosis or CAE or this or that. He was guessing as much as we have been. He gave me an injection for her of steroid and an antibiotic but by the time I was ready to give it to her she was already showing much improvement. So another $125.00 and now I've got to give her more probiotics to counter the antibiotic which wipes out her good bacteria. She isn't 100% but I'd say she's 90% and that is with the treatment of the B Complex, Selenium, probiotic and 2 days of 10X the recommended dosage of Safe Guard. She was off her feed for about a full day because it made her a little sick to her stomach but she is much improved. I'm wondering if I need to follow the advice of the university article on dosing her for a full 5 days with Safe Guard mega dosages and the Ivermectin for 3 days. I just hate to give her that much. The goalies on this forum know more than my vet, so I don't think I'll be paying hundreds of dollars to consult with him anymore. I can't afford it. He also charges $150 just to draw blood and test for CAE, per goat. OUCH! I've ordered my blood draw kit and will learn how to do it myself and use the suggested labs. I also have a microscope so I'll learn that as well. I really think my problem was parasites. I have done some research on selenium and copper in my area and I'd like to know what you think. Here's the info:

Average concentrations of elements in Douglas County, Georgia


Counties page > Se in Conterminous US > Se in southeastern US > Averages in Douglas County (Calculated from cells in the geochemical grid plotting in this area.)

Element	Symbol	Mean	Std. dev.	Minimum	Maximum
Aluminum	Al (wt%)	3.194	0.421	2.012	4.126
Arsenic	As (ppm)	0.827	0.177	0.331	1.178
Calcium	Ca (wt%)	0.142	0.091	0.061	0.504
Copper	Cu (ppm)	7.894	1.479	4.228	10.472
Iron	Fe (wt%)	2.416	0.908	0.547	4.728
Mercury	Hg (ppm)	0.050	0.012	0.021	0.077
Magnesium	Mg (wt%)	0.177	0.058	0.056	0.341
Manganese	Mn (ppm)	458.702	96.702	220.242	563.299
Sodium	Na (wt%)	0.148	0.035	0.089	0.264
Phosphorus	P (wt%)	0.011	0.003	0.003	0.017
Lead	Pb (ppm)	19.659	4.021	8.521	32.052
Selenium	Se (ppm)	0.136	0.021	0.102	0.193
Titanium	Ti (wt%)	0.559	0.158	0.189	0.824
Zinc	Zn (ppm)	35.802	5.187	19.769	42.910

This is what I have been feeding them. My little buck gets about 1/4 a pound twice a day. The 8 month old twin does get 1/2 pound twice a day and one adult doe gets the same because she isn't bred and isn't in milk. My other adult doe gets 1/2 pound twice a day because she's in milk. Should I give the little buck a different feed other than sweet fed because of the danger of urinary stones? He's been ok so far, but Lord! I'm tired of spending so much money. Oh! and I also add a small amount of food grade diatomaceous earth to the sweet feed to prevent coccidiosis. It sticks great to the molasses and it's super cheap. I mix it with my chicken feed too. I don't want to use medicated feed if I don't have to.

Dumor Goat Sweet Feed from Tractor Supply 50 lb bag

Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein (min.) 16.00%
Crude Fat (min.) 3.50%
Calcium (Ca) (min.) .80%
Phosphorus (P) (min.) .50%
Salt (NaCl) (min.) .50%
Crude Fiber (max.) 12.00%
Calcium (Ca) (max.) 1.30%
Salt (NaCl) (max.) 1.00%
Copper (Cu) (min.) 40.00 ppm
Copper (Cu) (max.) 45.00 ppm
Selenium (Se) (min.) .60 ppm
Zinc (Zn) (min.) 90.00 ppm
Vitamin A (min.) 5000.00 IU/lb.
Vitamin D3 (min.) 750.00 IU/lb.
Vitamin E (min.) 40.00 IU/lb.

As I said before, the 5 goats have about 4 1/2 acres. Some is fescue, weeds and a lot of clover and some is brush and woods. It's divided into two sections that I can rotate them between. I have free choice baking soda and minerals out but they don't eat it. Should I find something better and add it to their feed? I have the Pro-Manna for goats. You know, you will have to bill me, right? LOL!

 

[Deecarter]

We buy our copper bolus online, just search copper bolus goat or something similar and you will see them. We have ultracruz brand. Also do you see signs your goats are low on copper? If you are feeding a commercial goat feed it should have the proper amount of copper in it.

Actually overdosing with the shot is easier then the gel, however if you talk to your vet to get Bo-Se they can give you a safe one time yearly dose.

Agreed on the loose minerals try another brand. We use ADM loose minerals but that was the 3rd loose mineral we had to try before we found one they liked enough to actually eat it on a sort of regular basis. Also if your feed is well balanced they may just not need much loose mineral.

Well, if my feed is well balanced it would be just the luck of the draw because apparently I don't know much about what I'm doing here, but I'm committed to stick with it. I consider the money I've invested so far to be paying for my education. LOL! I'll get educated and figure all this out. Thanks so much. The folks here know more than my vet that's for sure.

 

[rachels.haven]

Your vet is severely over-charging. Can you get a local dairy goat person near you's opinion on your doe? Or to help you draw blood for tests which you can send in yourself? Do you have a goat FB group you could pull an in person mentor from? Maybe even the herdkeeper you bought her from? Seeing her in person will be invaluable.

Personally in your situation I'd fee free choice normal grass hay and maybe work up to a quart of pellets for this doe but start with just a cup (later if you want to add fat, calf manna pellets mixed 1:1 with BOSS are my current secret sauce). I use this brand of pellets. I went incognito and found it in your area. Anyone in milk can work up to a similar amount if you want to ration it.

I'm still concerned you're not just dealing with calcium deficiency here, and that you need experienced, in person help, and Dr. Expensive Google/Guessing it DVM isn't making the cut. If you can't find a local, in person friend, can you put a youtube video of her walking or standing displaying the behavior? Despite your vet's behavior, (as I'm sure you know and find maddening) this might be an emergency to some degree.

 

[rachels.haven]

@Deecarter ,I just reread everything. If they are on pasture they do not need hay. That IS hay. If you want to up this doe's calcium feed her some pellets on the stand, as much as she will take. If you can get someone to write you an rx for Bose without charging you a car, maybe give her a dose. Otherwise, maybe find a tube of replamin and start giving weekly doses and pray (replamin takes a lot more time than Bose to help). The last thing is re-recommend is finding a goat mentor to look at her. This is important because we can not see her nor do we know exactly what afflicts goats in your area. Have them also help you take blood to test her for CAE, cl, and Johnes then send it with a frozen sponge (over night) to either waddl or ubrl. Perhaps send a fecal sample to meadow mist lab as well. All this should cost less than a vet visit for you. This is the best you can do barring lab work, and that doesn't usually tell you much you can do anything about and your vet seems like they are not the one to do it and will definitely bill you a car for it.

Manna pro goat mineral isn't a great mineral, and it is expensive, but it is what a lot of people have access to. See if you can scout around for something better. This is not the emergency though.

 

[rachels.haven]

Your goat mentor may have access to a vial of Bose, btw, and may be able to help you out on that as well. You only need like 1 to 2.5 cc of it for a dose if memory serves. (They will know, I forget.) They may also know of a better vet if there is one.

 

[rachels.haven]

So to recap:
Test for cl, car, and Johnes (this will tell you if you are trying to fight a losing battle)
Get a fecal run by an inexpensive place (meadow mist) this will rule out heavy parasite load
Get the opinion of another local goat keeper(feel free to take it with a grain of salt if something feels off, or ask about it here). This will cover anything we miss or can not see.
Try to get a dose of Bose into her. Otherwise start replamin. Neither should hurt. If she hasn't has one, a copper bolus should also be considered, but I doubt it will be a silver bullet here.
Pellet her. Calcium and protein there.

Back burner: Ask your mentor about that mineral, and maybe check out other mineral sources. Copper and selenium are big in most areas for goats. Zinc can also be important. Feel free to run mineral tags past people here. Everybody deals with the mineral issue at some point.

 

[misfitmorgan]

Yes, I don't see what it would hurt to feed the alfalfa hay free choice. I have a hay rack in one stall of my barn that looks exactly like the one you posted a link to. I have been feeding small amounts of the Tractor Supply compressed bale morning and evening and a handful of the alfalfa pellets mixed with their feed to get all of them used to it but I haven't decided which one to go with. I like the idea of the hay free choice because the pellets are really more expensive in my opinion since they have to have so much of it per day. A 40 pound bag at Tractor Supply is $20.00 so if they each need about 4 pounds a day, I will go through a lot of those in a month. The nearest place I can buy peanut hay is a 4 hour drive, so that's out of the question. If I go with the alfalfa hay, I don't have to use another type of hay, do I? This is so crazy to me but I paid for a consultation to our vet last Friday and showed him a video of my young doe that was acting strange and he said it could be listeriosis or CAE or this or that. He was guessing as much as we have been. He gave me an injection for her of steroid and an antibiotic but by the time I was ready to give it to her she was already showing much improvement. So another $125.00 and now I've got to give her more probiotics to counter the antibiotic which wipes out her good bacteria. She isn't 100% but I'd say she's 90% and that is with the treatment of the B Complex, Selenium, probiotic and 2 days of 10X the recommended dosage of Safe Guard. She was off her feed for about a full day because it made her a little sick to her stomach but she is much improved. I'm wondering if I need to follow the advice of the university article on dosing her for a full 5 days with Safe Guard mega dosages and the Ivermectin for 3 days. I just hate to give her that much. The goalies on this forum know more than my vet, so I don't think I'll be paying hundreds of dollars to consult with him anymore. I can't afford it. He also charges $150 just to draw blood and test for CAE, per goat. OUCH! I've ordered my blood draw kit and will learn how to do it myself and use the suggested labs. I also have a microscope so I'll learn that as well. I really think my problem was parasites. I have done some research on selenium and copper in my area and I'd like to know what you think. Here's the info:

Average concentrations of elements in Douglas County, Georgia


Counties page > Se in Conterminous US > Se in southeastern US > Averages in Douglas County (Calculated from cells in the geochemical grid plotting in this area.)

Element	Symbol	Mean	Std. dev.	Minimum	Maximum
Aluminum	Al (wt%)	3.194	0.421	2.012	4.126
Arsenic	As (ppm)	0.827	0.177	0.331	1.178
Calcium	Ca (wt%)	0.142	0.091	0.061	0.504
Copper	Cu (ppm)	7.894	1.479	4.228	10.472
Iron	Fe (wt%)	2.416	0.908	0.547	4.728
Mercury	Hg (ppm)	0.050	0.012	0.021	0.077
Magnesium	Mg (wt%)	0.177	0.058	0.056	0.341
Manganese	Mn (ppm)	458.702	96.702	220.242	563.299
Sodium	Na (wt%)	0.148	0.035	0.089	0.264
Phosphorus	P (wt%)	0.011	0.003	0.003	0.017
Lead	Pb (ppm)	19.659	4.021	8.521	32.052
Selenium	Se (ppm)	0.136	0.021	0.102	0.193
Titanium	Ti (wt%)	0.559	0.158	0.189	0.824
Zinc	Zn (ppm)	35.802	5.187	19.769	42.910

This is what I have been feeding them. My little buck gets about 1/4 a pound twice a day. The 8 month old twin does get 1/2 pound twice a day and one adult doe gets the same because she isn't bred and isn't in milk. My other adult doe gets 1/2 pound twice a day because she's in milk. Should I give the little buck a different feed other than sweet fed because of the danger of urinary stones? He's been ok so far, but Lord! I'm tired of spending so much money. Oh! and I also add a small amount of food grade diatomaceous earth to the sweet feed to prevent coccidiosis. It sticks great to the molasses and it's super cheap. I mix it with my chicken feed too. I don't want to use medicated feed if I don't have to.

Dumor Goat Sweet Feed from Tractor Supply 50 lb bag

Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein (min.) 16.00%
Crude Fat (min.) 3.50%
Calcium (Ca) (min.) .80%
Phosphorus (P) (min.) .50%
Salt (NaCl) (min.) .50%
Crude Fiber (max.) 12.00%
Calcium (Ca) (max.) 1.30%
Salt (NaCl) (max.) 1.00%
Copper (Cu) (min.) 40.00 ppm
Copper (Cu) (max.) 45.00 ppm
Selenium (Se) (min.) .60 ppm
Zinc (Zn) (min.) 90.00 ppm
Vitamin A (min.) 5000.00 IU/lb.
Vitamin D3 (min.) 750.00 IU/lb.
Vitamin E (min.) 40.00 IU/lb.

As I said before, the 5 goats have about 4 1/2 acres. Some is fescue, weeds and a lot of clover and some is brush and woods. It's divided into two sections that I can rotate them between. I have free choice baking soda and minerals out but they don't eat it. Should I find something better and add it to their feed? I have the Pro-Manna for goats. You know, you will have to bill me, right? LOL!

Agree with @rachels.haven and what I was trying to get across but didnt do so well with.

They have 4 acres of pasture stop giving them hay. In winter/cold months they probly need hay or if there is nothing growing but even then if there is even dried vegetation that is "standing hay".

Stop giving them alfalfa pellets.

Stop giving them so much grain!! Goats do NOT require grain, unless they are late stage bred, lactating, or to skinny.
The only goat who actually needs grain atm aside from anything bred or lactating is the one skinny mom who had the 8 month old twins on still. Normal ration for a goat in lactation is 1lb of grain per 3lbs of milk you are getting. If you are not milking a goat and kids are pulled off you normally take them off grain to help them dry up, until they dry up putting weight on going to be a struggle as most does put everything into their milk production.

At the current rate of feeding and vet care you are going to go broke. Normal healthy non-lactating goats require either pasture or hay and loose minerals...usually nothing else. According to Mr. Google for georgia you can have 10 goats per acre so in theory you have enough pasture for 45 goats....your 5 or so should have no problem finding enough forage.

Once you remove the hay and grain it should help with parasites as well as they will not be frequenting one or two feeding areas so much.

If you dont practice rotational grazing you should start, that will severely cut down on parasite problems. You can divide your pasture into 1 acre sections and rotate them thru moving them every 3 weeks, that will give you the minimum 60 days rest on each pasture before they are on it again. You will also have room for adding more goats. You can fence off 1/2 acre near your shelter for weaning kids or separating your buck when its not breeding season, or anything else you ever need another pasture for.

My only other advice is stop buying all your feed from tractor supply. Search for and go to feed mills, prices will be quite a bit cheaper. We pay $10.50 for 100lbs of shell corn at our feed mill, TSC sells a 50lbs bag for $10.49, it is literally half the price at the feed mill. Here is a search I did in your area, try out these places.

If they dont seem much cheaper join a facebook group for livestock in your area or state and ask on there if anyone knows of any good local feed mills. You can also ask about hay, I guarantee someone on FB or at the mill is going to know a cheaper source for hay then TSC with it's $20 compressed bales. Check your craigslist under Farm&Garden, I searched your area there are several listing an hour or less from you for round bales of hay for $20-20 each of small square bales for $4-6 each. Grass hay, coastal, timothy, orchard grass, ryegrass, etc are all fine hays for goats for winter but do not wait until the last minute to buy your winter hay or prices will be high.

According to what I can find georgia only needs winter forage for 90 days, so with 5 goats your entire winter hay supply needs are 2 round bales That doesnt take into account any stockpiled forage still in your pasture aka "standing hay".

Please do not take anything I have said as Fact!! I live in northern Michigan and all of my info is based on things I could find on the internet. I'm sure local people can get you way more information from actual experience on how much hay you need or how many days of winter forage is needed, best feed mill, cheapest hay, etc.

This is also based on my opinion and how I raise my livestock. These are your goats and if you like to give them grain...do it, just a little less so you dont break the bank. If it makes you feel better to give them hay until you have more experience, do it. I still give our goats occasional hay as they are clearing brush/weeds/bushes from our new pasture but I can look at our pasture and access when they need hay because forage is low or gone or harder to get too.

Basically our goats cost us $0 in summer, in spring after pasture grows and in fall until snow hits. We might treat them with some grain here and there to keep them friendly or catch them, they do not get it daily. Our 50lbs bag of ADM loose minerals cost us $22 and last them 4-6 months. Our goats cost us less then $500/year which includes all feed, dewormer, cocci treatment, scrapie tags and CDT. Our goat kids sell for $150 and up each. The real cost of livestock is infostructure...pastures, barns, waterers, feeders, gates, etc.

We feed hay year round because we dont yet have enough pasture fenced but the goats are on pasture duty. Luckily you have plenty of pasture atm!

 

[misfitmorgan]

For the question on copper.....

They probly need it based on your elements table you posted. Look at your goats do they have fish tails, bald patches on their face(bridge of the nose or around eyes, rust color on legs and under belly, lack of shedding their winter coat, trouble with fertility, problems with internal parasites after multi treatments that should work for your area?

I have met more then one goat who I thought was rust colored or mostly rust colored....turns out they were actually suppose to be black or dark brown or some other color. You can buy the copper bolus online, they are not cheap but with only 5 goats you have a 2-4yr supply from one purchase, depending on if you need to bolus every 6 months or every 12 months.

 

[rachels.haven]

Right on!