Nutrition and condition discussion

[TheMixedBag]

It's still too early for her to be showing any kind of good condition, *however*, Jenny looked better this morning than she has in quite some time. Not as ribby, spiny or anything. Around the tail-head area, she's not as sunken in (though it looked really odd yesterday afternoon-the tailbone was level, with a depression right between it and the ligaments).

Now I have to go fix the fly problem and her skin shedding problem. White goats and Oklahoma summers are not a good mix.

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

White goats and Oklahoma summers are not a good mix.

It's already Summer in Oklahoma??! And I thought us Southerners were ahead of the game...

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

I see the prettiest mug there in the background!!! Awww, boy do I miss that face.

And our whole family is SO glad to have her back! She and Chippy are in wub, too, she's a happy girl.

That absolutely warms my heart, Kate! She surely loves her boys.

 

[TheMixedBag]

White goats and Oklahoma summers are not a good mix.

It's already Summer in Oklahoma??! And I thought us Southerners were ahead of the game...

It might as well be! It was nearly 90 yesterday, same today, and tomorrow we get a bit of a break with 80, tops.

 

[freemotion]

Yowza. I put my little doeling inside my coat this morning because once she came out from under the heat lamp, she started shivering. Even with two coats on, each a double layer of fleece. There was ice on the buckets, too.

 

[TheMixedBag]

Totally forgot to do this yesterday, but here's the update to Jenny's condition, (early in the morning this time!)

Personally, I see a difference, don't really know how much of one, considering she's only 4 weeks into lactation and once again supporting 3 kids, ranging between 20-30lb (sadly, it's the older twin who's 30lb). I am not milking her anymore at all, Barclay is making quite sure of that, so I guess I don't have to war with him over the bottle anymore. Weaning at 6/7 weeks doesn't sound that bad anyways.

But, I digress-this is her condition from yesterday, and she has been off alfalfa hay for almost a full week. I'm picking up some from the auction Saturday, and then we shouldn't run out for some time. I upped the amount of pellets they're getting to make up for it, so now it's 4 scoops of pellets for 5 goats.

Also, an update-Talala is maintaining her condition nicely, and slowly rebuilding her milk supply (I believe the calf manna is helping greatly with this). I am only milking her once a day, I know I should be twice a day, but oftentimes she's being nursed on by Barclay as well, or I'm asleep and don't wake up until holy-crap-i-have-10-minutes-to-be-to-work.

 

[cmjust0]

The flip side of that, does that are overconditioned and have deposited large amounts of fat internally can be an equally disastrous situation.

Can be is the key to the whole thing there.. You *can* have a doe that's just gigantic huge fat and bred, and so long as you feed her adequately to prevent her from going to fat stores to make energy (which leads to ketosis) you should be fine.

I had this one gigantic fat doe I slimmed down throughout early pregnancy.. When she started a serious condition burn toward late pregnancy, I fed her enough to stem the condition loss.. When she kidded, she was in really good shape.

Then, of course, she lost more condition through lactation so I had to feed...and feed...and feed... Wished I'd kept more of that condition on her through pregnancy, frankly, but still..

The point is that having a fat bred doe doesn't necessarily mean you're *going* to have problems.. You increase the risk, but ketosis -- in my mind, anyway -- can be more accurately correlated to a lack of nutrition late than to a wealth of waistline early.

Really, it seems to me that the goal shouldn't so much be going into kidding in good condition, it should be going into late GESTATION in good condition.

Agreed.. You've got about three and a half to four months to play with her diet before crunchtime.

when do you typically see does having a harder time maintaining the ideal and how do you handle it?

Depends on the doe, and I handle it by keeping an eye on them and laying on feed as necessary.

What types of feed do those extra calories come from?

Feed = grains = carbs. I figure carbs are carbs.. If you were on Atkins and thought "I wonder if I can eat some of that pelleted feed?" the answer is NO, which I figure is about all I need to know..

I also like to add good ol' fat during that time, so the BOSS usage gets a little heavier..

When are you most concerned with nutritional disorders (ketosis, hypocalcemia, etc.) and how do you adjust your feeding to handle that?

Late gestation, and I feed more to stem an obvious or rapid condition burn. I know that's simplistic, but it's worked so far.

That's not to say I haven't had a few 'walking skeletons' over time, though...I have...lactation's hard on a dairy goat, especially one that's dam-raising kids.

I'll say this, too -- young goats recover condition more quickly than those who have a few kiddings behind them! You may be able to get away with burning a first or second freshener from both ends and get her back in a reasonable amount of time, but beyond that, it becomes a bit of an uphill battle.. So, watch your older does closely..

 

[Roll farms]

Mixed Bag, forgive me for this, but I can't not mention this, in case it is part of the problem.

The Nub doe looks like she's lost a bit of weight since you posted her 1st pic.

Goats burn calories to stay warm.

IMHO, if you're still needing to wear jeans and long sleeves over another shirt, it's quite possible it's not warm enough for them to be slick shaved, and part of the reason they're not gaining any condition might be b/c what they are taking in is going to not only produce milk, but also to keep warm.

I don't trim *anyone* until I'm sure night time temps won't go below 60 degrees.

I don't slick shave 2/3 of my herd, even when the heat index says it's over 100 degrees. They do fine. You might consider letting their coats grow back out...see if they gain some condition back.

JMHO. I mean no offense, just throwing it out there in case you hadn't thought of it.

 

[freemotion]

I second Rolls post. I'd be putting a sweater on the doe whenever I needed long sleeves. She is out there in a bikini, basically. I know it has been and will be very hot there in OK and she will appreciate the clip, but on the cooler days/nights, a modified sweatshirt will be useful for this one. I don't clip my goats, but I worked with horses professionally for many years and I never clipped without providing blankets at night or whenever I needed long sleeves. It is even more important for an animal without the bulk of a horse. My triplets have coats on tonight again, and the smallest one had one on all day as she gets chilled more easily than her larger siblings. I posted a tutorial on how I made them somewhere, if you'd like I can find it for you.

I also see her just as thin again.....all those transverse processes are clearly outlined, no topline muscling at all. In a heavily lactating doe, even a week can make such a huge difference.

You are doing a lot of great things for her, so continue doing so. Being off the alfalfa hay for a week (trust me, I know how hard it is to find good hay this time of year....pretty impossible here!) so she lost a bit of ground. Not milking her at all is a wise choice. You might consider still separating her twice a day for a few minutes so she can eat her grain/concentrates without competition from the other goats, at least for a while.

 

[TheMixedBag]

I didn't need them, it was part of my work uniform. Stupid shirt goes halfway up me whenever I have to lift something, so I need an undershirt, and by the time I get home, I really don't have the will to take anything off.... She hasn't lost any weight, I can promise you that. Her hiney is as jiggly as ever, though her white butt and the white siding really doesn't do well for making her look good...if she has lost weight, it's *probably* not the temps (will have to blanket this weekend, but I'm buying special ones she can't throw off and hide on me), but more her racing the kids at breakneck speed 10 hours out of the day.

Jenny's also a doe I don't have to separate (and if I do, she won't eat. She nibbles, picks it up and flings it at me.). I'm really quite honestly surprised, Talala's been the first doe she hasn't fought with over everything, and aside from dislocating her shoulder once for bugging her, they've gotten along great. Talala eats with the kids, and Jenny and Barclay get the trough. The only thing that concerns me a bit is Talala will not graze. I catch her nibbling here and there, and then sniffing everything else. It might come from the fact that she was all but kept on a dry lot before, but I'm hoping she starts to soon, ragweed will be coming in, and Jenny and her kids won't be able to eat it down by themselves...

That all being said, our first show is in May, which is the big reason they're shaved. I'm HORRID at shaving white goats, and the only way I'll be able to get it right is to shave her down early, and then pick off the long spots right before the show. Talala, I don't know what I'll do with her, I can still see where the hair is reddish from her copper deficiency (both were bolused).