Nutrition and condition discussion

[SDGsoap&dairy]

MixedBag, I'm assuming you and your vet have ruled out parasites through fecal analysis?

I had a nubian doe who was underconditioned when I got her and it took several months to get her into what I saw as fairly close to her ideal condition. The VERY LAST place she started to put weight on was over her spine and hips and I felt like she never would! She was wormed heavily when she arrived, just as part of our basic protocol, and then I gradually worked up her feed as high as I was comfortable with. She was dry and bred when I bought her.

I don't have a "before" picture, which was silly of me, but this picture is taken less than 4 months after I bought her, about 7-10 days after she kidded:

At the time she was in better condition than when I bought her, but I still found that she didn't have enough condition to keep her going through early lactation without her ending up pretty scrawny. This girl MILKED and there was no way to keep up with the calories expended without seriously risking acidosis. I ended up trading her for a nigi with a friend, who started drying her off only about 3 months into lactation to start putting some weight back on her.

The way this doe is put together I really don't think you could ever completely smooth out her spine, hips, and rump without overconditioning her. But my experience was that for early lactation the condition she has in the photo was not enough. This is what I'd want to see and maintain following early lactation rather than going into it.

 

[freemotion]

I am very interested in this thread. I read stuff here on byh and think....Oh, gotta go grain those preggers does! They'll be metabolizing their own tissues to make kids! Then I read another thread and think.....Oh, no, gotta stop graining those preggers does! Big kids=hard deliveries! I can get them back up after they kid.

And the buck....grain=UC....and the boy isn't interested much in any food when the girls smell so interesting.

I go back and forth, back and forth......

Now I'm starting to see that there may be differences in how the different breeds are handled with this, so....please, if you experienced ones chime in, tell us what breeds you are feeding, and if you think your decision as to how you feed may be breed specific or not.

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

I read stuff here on byh and think....Oh, gotta go grain those preggers does! They'll be metabolizing their own tissues to make kids! Then I read another thread and think.....Oh, no, gotta stop graining those preggers does! Big kids=hard deliveries! I can get them back up after they kid.

I go back and forth, back and forth......

Totally.

 

[TheMixedBag]

right now, yeah, she's dealing with a bit of a worm load, but it's just roundworms, and it's only because I missed her second dosing, so I'm restarting today, and triple-dosing her (now, again in 10 days, and then again after that in 10 days) and calling it good until she looks like she needs it again. I really don't like to worm on a regular basis, I'm kind of limited in my choices of wormer, and right now I've got 3 different kids of Ivermectin (Ivomec, Zimectrin Gold and an apple flavored "cheap" zimectrin type paste) and Ivomec Plus, and that's pretty well it.

She had her last fecal late Dec. with maybe one or two roundworms and that was it.

And just because they're in the other thread, this was what she looked like the day we picked her up, and what she looked like in July-ish, dried off and open. This is why I said she will never look like she's in good condition.

(about mid-June, the day we got her)

Late July-ish, just drying her off. She was producing approx. 3/4 of a gallon at this point)

 

[20kidsonhill]

I am very interested in this thread. I read stuff here on byh and think....Oh, gotta go grain those preggers does! They'll be metabolizing their own tissues to make kids! Then I read another thread and think.....Oh, no, gotta stop graining those preggers does! Big kids=hard deliveries! I can get them back up after they kid.

And the buck....grain=UC....and the boy isn't interested much in any food when the girls smell so interesting.

I go back and forth, back and forth......

Now I'm starting to see that there may be differences in how the different breeds are handled with this, so....please, if you experienced ones chime in, tell us what breeds you are feeding, and if you think your decision as to how you feed may be breed specific or not.

there is a huge difference in breeds and individual animals with in a breed. I have full-blood boer all the way to 50% boer/ 50%nubian and the nubians could eat all day and not get fat, the boers on the other hand aren't in the feeder nearly as much and can put weight back on after the kids are weaned, very easily. It is difficult feeding all 18 at the same time, especially while pregnant, since the big nubian percentage need more feed for their kids to grow and the boers don't need hardly any. Infact a boer doe will give you a set of 10lb triplets on grass hay or pasture, some water and loose minerals.

Loose goat minerals(only for goats) and Bo-se shots seem to be a must with any of the breeds.


I would rather risk a smaller set of triplets than have huge singles and twins on my full-bloods, the smaller kids will grow just fine, but I don't want to end up with a bunch of stillborns or loose my doe all together. I intentionally under feed, to keep kid size down. We also intentionally under feed our does when they are nursing, knowing they will come down on weight, but once weaned they will put it back on from summer pasture. I now I could keep throwing out alfalfa hay at 5 bucks a bale and dumping more grain, sun flowers, ectt.... to them and probably not have any of them loose weight, but our farm would go broke.


I feed my bucks grain until they are 2 years old. Yup!! Not just one cup, I am talking near a couple lbs a day(around 4cups) of grain, with AC in it, but I have never added extra AC. Plus free-choice grass hay.

Personally, I think it is whethers you have to be really careful with, but our show whethers are on free-choice grain for 6 to 8 months, depending on how old they are when they go to show, This equals around 3 to 4 lbs of grain a day. That is a lot of grain. They get a little bit of grass hay, like a handful a day. I have lost one Whether to Uc, he was around 4 months old. We also band(castrate at 3to4weeks of age). This is a meat goat show, so they do go to slaughter after the show.


I think the bottom-line is get to know your goats, the breeds you have, and if possible what are other farmers dealing with in your area. Use all the information together to come up with a plan for your goats.

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

right now, yeah, she's dealing with a bit of a worm load, but it's just roundworms, and it's only because I missed her second dosing, so I'm restarting today, and triple-dosing her (now, again in 10 days, and then again after that in 10 days) and calling it good until she looks like she needs it again. I really don't like to worm on a regular basis

I'm with you about not wanting to worm on a regular schedule, but rather worming as needed. When you say "looks like she needs it," do you mean FAMACHA or general condition? I'd disagree that it's a good idea to hold off on fecals until her condition looks like she needs it. Worms can just take them down so fast, and by the time their general appearance is affected that's probably a pretty hefty load.

My goat vet charges $21 to send fecals to a lab and the results are back within 24 hours. I just had a discussion with him recently about worming programs and he suggested that goats are able to really hide a heavy load until it becomes an emergency situation. Their skin and coat may appear normal, feces normal, body weight within normal range, etc. Obviously you're not going to totally eliminate parasites, but my goal is to worm them before it begins to affect their health.

 

[TheMixedBag]

I go by eyes/gums. (I guess that's FAMACHA, thinking about it. I really need to go to bed...) Believe me, I learned my lesson about worming...had 2 goats die last summer from liver fluke because I was only using Ivomec and not plus. I know how fast they can go down. My buck was down in a week and my doe went down in 4 days, tops.

In fact, I just popped outside and gave everybody about 5cc of Ivomec (orally), then realized I'll be lucky if I've got the 3 doses I need again in 10 days...oh well. I'm pretty sure Zimectrin can do just fine.

My vet (sheep/cattle/pets, mostly, but does just fine with my goats) only charges $7 but does the exam there herself.

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

$7?! That's great.

 

[TheMixedBag]

yeah, but she sneaks the $15 walk-in fee, too. I don't mind it, most stuff she does is super-cheap for this area. She'll speuter pets for $30 or so if the animal is under 25 lb.

 

[freemotion]

Whoa! Move the decimal point over one space for the average charges here!