SageHill
Herd Master
There is no fence. The dog is a living fence
. The perimeter of the ranch is fenced - though most of the time it is out of sight - steep slopes. and gentle slopes.
Questions about milk & cream
- Thread starter dairydreams
- Start date
. The perimeter of the ranch is fenced - though most of the time it is out of sight - steep slopes. and gentle slopes.farmerjan
Herd Master
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@dairydreams .... @SageHill has a thread about how she has a "herding type" dog breed, that actually do the work and keep the sheep within certain areas that she wants to take them out to graze. Very very neat... she teaches different "classes" for dogs for different specialties... read her thread.
Some people use electric netting to create temporary areas to do rotational type grazing... goats will be more likely to challenge any type fence than sheep will... Cattle can be contained with just one wire that is electrified once they are trained to respect it .....well, most cattle.... I would not trust even a 3 strand electric wire fence for some sheep or goats... woven wire permanent fence (called field fencing some places... cattle type has 6 " stay wire spacing, goat and sheep type have 4" stay wire spacing to help to keep them from putting their heads through it...)
Some people use electric netting to create temporary areas to do rotational type grazing... goats will be more likely to challenge any type fence than sheep will... Cattle can be contained with just one wire that is electrified once they are trained to respect it .....well, most cattle.... I would not trust even a 3 strand electric wire fence for some sheep or goats... woven wire permanent fence (called field fencing some places... cattle type has 6 " stay wire spacing, goat and sheep type have 4" stay wire spacing to help to keep them from putting their heads through it...)
- Thread starter
- #33
dairydreams
Overrun with beasties
Do you think a 4 strand wire still wouldn't cut it for a goat? I did find some nice fiberglass posts with 4 strand placement (the two and the bottom being close-ish and graduated spacing to the top strand). This would of course have to have solid corners and some along in the straight runs but for the majority of posts...would this suit or still go for the heavier duty fence for goats?
We are getting our land surveyed soon (haven't ever had it done) so that will really give an idea of our space to use. From an overhead map it looks like the space hubby's giving up might give me a whole 2-3 acres to work with, however they are wooded....
Regardless of what we end up with, we'd be putting them up at night in our large shed converted into a barn. There's a three sided run in that's about 12x12 feet (8 ft or so high) and it's fenced in a bigger yard that is surrounded by a 6.5 foot fence with three layers of fence on it (2x4" welded wire fence, then a layer of coated chicken wire, plus the bottom two feet are hardware mesh that runs on the ground too to stop anything trying to dig). It also has a hot wire running the parimeter of the lower fence as well as up top...although we don't keep it on. I think the whole area is about 1300-1600 feet or so; can't remember exactly but in that range.
Right now we just keep our flock there (they're in a different part of the shed that's got a smaller door, but have access to the "yard").
We are getting our land surveyed soon (haven't ever had it done) so that will really give an idea of our space to use. From an overhead map it looks like the space hubby's giving up might give me a whole 2-3 acres to work with, however they are wooded....
Regardless of what we end up with, we'd be putting them up at night in our large shed converted into a barn. There's a three sided run in that's about 12x12 feet (8 ft or so high) and it's fenced in a bigger yard that is surrounded by a 6.5 foot fence with three layers of fence on it (2x4" welded wire fence, then a layer of coated chicken wire, plus the bottom two feet are hardware mesh that runs on the ground too to stop anything trying to dig). It also has a hot wire running the parimeter of the lower fence as well as up top...although we don't keep it on. I think the whole area is about 1300-1600 feet or so; can't remember exactly but in that range.
Right now we just keep our flock there (they're in a different part of the shed that's got a smaller door, but have access to the "yard").
Baymule
Herd Master
@SageHill posted videos of her working dogs.
www.backyardherds.com
SageHill Ranch Journal
Ohhhhj……Murphy is a TREE and IRRIGATION Guard Dog! That’s sure a speciality niche for a dog. LOL I had no idea coyotes would tear up irrigation lines. I can see them eating the fruit and keeping the pesky rascals away. But Murphy needs a working partner, one lonely dog is no match for a coyote...
www.backyardherds.com
Alaskan
Herd Master
Never. Not even an electrified 4 strand.
blessedfarmgirl
True BYH Addict
We use 48" electric netting for our dairy goats, and it has worked perfectly so far. No escapees, and the netting is portable and easy to set up. 3-4 strand is enough for sheep, and I've heard it can be used for meat goats, definitely not for dairy goats.
farmerjan
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I think that a goat's purpose in life is to see if they can find a way out of where you want them to be... just because....
Ridgetop
Herd Master
Everyone gave you good advice. You said you have milk goat and milk cow shares and you pick the milk up weekly. There are several possible reasons why your DH doesn't like the goat milk as opposed to the cow milk. The fact that you are getting milk once a week instead of fresh daily leaps to the eye. Let's address those possibilities first, since everyone agrees (and I also agree with them) that you would be better off with 2 standard dairy goats for your household dairy herd instead of a cow.
1. Picking up the milk weekly means that the milk, even if fresh when you pick it up, is several days old by the middle of the week. Goat milk changes flavor fast. We drank the morning's milking in the evening and the evening's milking in the morning allowing 12 hours for it to chill. After that we used it to feed calves or pasteurized it to feed the goat kids. If the milk is older when you get it or has not been chilled immediately it can contribute to an off flavor.
2. How soon is the milk chilled after straining? Immediately chilling keeps the flavor good. In fact, chilling in smaller containers is better because you want to remove the body heat from the milk as soon as possible. You can use an aluminum milk can set in ice water to chill the milk. Aluminum transfers cold faster and will chill 2 quarts of milk almost instantly. Then immediately transfer the chilled milk into glass containers for storage.
3. How is the fresh milk stored or handled? Always use glass containers for storing milk. If you are storing your milk in plastic bottles, plastic is porous. Milk stored in plastic can take on flavors from odors - onions, or anything stored in the fridge. If you don't have glass pitchers that seal tightly you can use canning jars. Check to make sure that your milk share person is storing the milk properly in glass containers. Provide your own if necessary.
4. What breed or breeds of goats is the milk coming from? Some breeds (notably Toggenburgs) have nasty tasting milk. It makes great sharp cheese but for everyday drinking it really has a bad taste. Also, individual goats differ in flavor even in the same breed. What breed or breeds are the goats in your dairy share herd?
5. Another thing to remember is that different breeds of goats have different percentages of butterfat. Nubian goats have the highest butterfat, Saanens (I think) have the lowest. If your husband does not like cream or rich milk that might be the reason. Goat milk is naturally homogenized which means that the cream does not rise like cow milk. If you want a lot of cream, invest in a cream separator. Or if your DH refers 2% or skim milk, invest in a cream separator and he can drink the skimmed milk.
6. What are the goats eating? Diet is everything and different feed can change the flavor of the milk. Our dairy herd ate alfalfa and on the milkstand they got dairy cow grain. In effect they were eating what the commercial dairy cows were eating. Other than being richer than store bought cow milk, their milk tasted the same. Check what the goats are being fed.
7. Goats turned out to graze/forage need to be brought in at least 2 hours prior to milking, depending on the type of native forage in your pasture. Different forage (weeds, brush, wild onions, etc.) can change the taste of the milk. Allowing 2 hours between the goat eating the last bit of forage and milking can improve the flavor of the milk.
Once you identify why your husband doesn't like the taste of the goat milk you are currently getting, you can decide if you want to get your own goats, or simply abandon the goat share and stay with the cow share. If he absolutely doesn't like any goat milk, then there is no reason to buy milking goats.
If you solve the mystery of why he doesn't like the goat milk (see the 6 possibilities above) and are able to make changes to the goat milk you are getting, you can decide to head into goat ownership.
Stay away from the mini breeds. Nigerian Dwarf breeders will extoll the butterfat % in their milk. Mini goat breeders are happy with a quart per day. That is wonderful. It is too bad that the teats on those tiny goats are harder to milk, and that you will end up paying more for the milk by the time you compute the cost of hay and grain for the minis vs the amount of milk you are getting and the effort it will take you to obtain it. The miniature breeds are cute but if you want milk, stick with the standard breeds. It is just my opinion, but I prefer to deal with the larger standard breeds on the milk stand. They are just as cute and sweet, and their size makes them easier to work with.
The most important part of this equation is whether or not you actually want to devote the time and expense to milking goats or cows daily. Dairying is a way of life. You have to be present for milking every 12 hours. Do you like to go away for weekends? Forget it with a miking animal. Thinking that you can leave the kids on their mothers and just milk occasionally does not work. Regular milking is necessary for the goat's/cow's udder health. The only way to be sure of a continuing milk supply is to milk on a regular basis. Kids should be weaned by 3 months, or they get too big to comfortably nurse. A large 6 month old kid butting the udder for milk let down can damage udder tissues. Damage to the udder can affect the ligaments or contribute to mastitis.
I am not even going to touch on cows here since their milk output is so much larger. You don't mention if you have children drinking the milk. You and your husband won't need nearly as much milk as a family of growing children. A cow giving 4 gallons will eat more than 2 goats giving the same amount. Unpasteurized goat milk is relatively safe to drink raw, while cow milk may not be. Cows need a much larger area to graze in. Goats are not natural grazers, they are foragers and need more roughage in their diets than cattle. They will decimate your woods and can girdle the trees and kill them if they are not being fed enough.
The goats will adjust to the size of a smaller pen. Bigger is better, but they can be dry lotted if you are feeding good quality hay. We are on the west coast, so we fed alfalfa. Lots of protein in alfalfa, lots of calcium for milk. All they needed was grain in the stanchion while milking. You feed grain in a ratio of 1 lb grain for every 1 lb milk being produced. You measure milk by weight not liquid measurement. In addition to the work involved in dairying, there is some expense. You will need equipment, and a covered location to do your milking. You will need a location for the doe to give birth and if you decide to oll the kids and bottle feed, a place for them. Speaking of kids, don't forget that you will need to breed your goats each year for them to become milk producers. If you can buy a pair of milkers in the breed you want near you and arrange to return them to the breeder for stud service that is the best.
By the way, if you are buying milkers, taste their milk before you buy. If possible, try milking them to see if they suit you. Some goats have badly shaped teats or pendulous udders that make milking difficult. Stay away from them.
Hope this helps you.
1. Picking up the milk weekly means that the milk, even if fresh when you pick it up, is several days old by the middle of the week. Goat milk changes flavor fast. We drank the morning's milking in the evening and the evening's milking in the morning allowing 12 hours for it to chill. After that we used it to feed calves or pasteurized it to feed the goat kids. If the milk is older when you get it or has not been chilled immediately it can contribute to an off flavor.
2. How soon is the milk chilled after straining? Immediately chilling keeps the flavor good. In fact, chilling in smaller containers is better because you want to remove the body heat from the milk as soon as possible. You can use an aluminum milk can set in ice water to chill the milk. Aluminum transfers cold faster and will chill 2 quarts of milk almost instantly. Then immediately transfer the chilled milk into glass containers for storage.
3. How is the fresh milk stored or handled? Always use glass containers for storing milk. If you are storing your milk in plastic bottles, plastic is porous. Milk stored in plastic can take on flavors from odors - onions, or anything stored in the fridge. If you don't have glass pitchers that seal tightly you can use canning jars. Check to make sure that your milk share person is storing the milk properly in glass containers. Provide your own if necessary.
4. What breed or breeds of goats is the milk coming from? Some breeds (notably Toggenburgs) have nasty tasting milk. It makes great sharp cheese but for everyday drinking it really has a bad taste. Also, individual goats differ in flavor even in the same breed. What breed or breeds are the goats in your dairy share herd?
5. Another thing to remember is that different breeds of goats have different percentages of butterfat. Nubian goats have the highest butterfat, Saanens (I think) have the lowest. If your husband does not like cream or rich milk that might be the reason. Goat milk is naturally homogenized which means that the cream does not rise like cow milk. If you want a lot of cream, invest in a cream separator. Or if your DH refers 2% or skim milk, invest in a cream separator and he can drink the skimmed milk.
6. What are the goats eating? Diet is everything and different feed can change the flavor of the milk. Our dairy herd ate alfalfa and on the milkstand they got dairy cow grain. In effect they were eating what the commercial dairy cows were eating. Other than being richer than store bought cow milk, their milk tasted the same. Check what the goats are being fed.
7. Goats turned out to graze/forage need to be brought in at least 2 hours prior to milking, depending on the type of native forage in your pasture. Different forage (weeds, brush, wild onions, etc.) can change the taste of the milk. Allowing 2 hours between the goat eating the last bit of forage and milking can improve the flavor of the milk.
Once you identify why your husband doesn't like the taste of the goat milk you are currently getting, you can decide if you want to get your own goats, or simply abandon the goat share and stay with the cow share. If he absolutely doesn't like any goat milk, then there is no reason to buy milking goats.
If you solve the mystery of why he doesn't like the goat milk (see the 6 possibilities above) and are able to make changes to the goat milk you are getting, you can decide to head into goat ownership.
Stay away from the mini breeds. Nigerian Dwarf breeders will extoll the butterfat % in their milk. Mini goat breeders are happy with a quart per day. That is wonderful. It is too bad that the teats on those tiny goats are harder to milk, and that you will end up paying more for the milk by the time you compute the cost of hay and grain for the minis vs the amount of milk you are getting and the effort it will take you to obtain it. The miniature breeds are cute but if you want milk, stick with the standard breeds. It is just my opinion, but I prefer to deal with the larger standard breeds on the milk stand. They are just as cute and sweet, and their size makes them easier to work with.
The most important part of this equation is whether or not you actually want to devote the time and expense to milking goats or cows daily. Dairying is a way of life. You have to be present for milking every 12 hours. Do you like to go away for weekends? Forget it with a miking animal. Thinking that you can leave the kids on their mothers and just milk occasionally does not work. Regular milking is necessary for the goat's/cow's udder health. The only way to be sure of a continuing milk supply is to milk on a regular basis. Kids should be weaned by 3 months, or they get too big to comfortably nurse. A large 6 month old kid butting the udder for milk let down can damage udder tissues. Damage to the udder can affect the ligaments or contribute to mastitis.
I am not even going to touch on cows here since their milk output is so much larger. You don't mention if you have children drinking the milk. You and your husband won't need nearly as much milk as a family of growing children. A cow giving 4 gallons will eat more than 2 goats giving the same amount. Unpasteurized goat milk is relatively safe to drink raw, while cow milk may not be. Cows need a much larger area to graze in. Goats are not natural grazers, they are foragers and need more roughage in their diets than cattle. They will decimate your woods and can girdle the trees and kill them if they are not being fed enough.
The goats will adjust to the size of a smaller pen. Bigger is better, but they can be dry lotted if you are feeding good quality hay. We are on the west coast, so we fed alfalfa. Lots of protein in alfalfa, lots of calcium for milk. All they needed was grain in the stanchion while milking. You feed grain in a ratio of 1 lb grain for every 1 lb milk being produced. You measure milk by weight not liquid measurement. In addition to the work involved in dairying, there is some expense. You will need equipment, and a covered location to do your milking. You will need a location for the doe to give birth and if you decide to oll the kids and bottle feed, a place for them. Speaking of kids, don't forget that you will need to breed your goats each year for them to become milk producers. If you can buy a pair of milkers in the breed you want near you and arrange to return them to the breeder for stud service that is the best.
By the way, if you are buying milkers, taste their milk before you buy. If possible, try milking them to see if they suit you. Some goats have badly shaped teats or pendulous udders that make milking difficult. Stay away from them.
Hope this helps you.
Baymule
Herd Master
Or you could just continue to buy your milk. Something tells me it is a whole lot easier and cheaper.
If you want to raise an animal for consumption, raise 2 feeder pigs. One for your freezer and one for family or friends. Pigs do better if they are not alone. I can refer you to the Pig Palace I built, easy to feed and water and practically no smell.
If you want to raise an animal for consumption, raise 2 feeder pigs. One for your freezer and one for family or friends. Pigs do better if they are not alone. I can refer you to the Pig Palace I built, easy to feed and water and practically no smell.
Mini Horses
Herd Master
but no fun or challenge.Personally, I feel I will always keep a couple of good milking dairy goats.
Saanen are my choice.
