rachels.haven's Journal

[farmerjan]

Sorry the show was not a positive for you showing your goats. I also do not like the roly poly fat that is often seen in show cattle.... and I do not show for that reason. I also do not believe in all the inputs to "make a show animal" because it is an artificial showing of animals that may or may not ... mostly NOT, be long lived and productive in the field in REAL LIFE conditions.
Stick to your guns, and breed according to the productiveness of the lines, and the breed standards.

We get some of that in the chickens too... and more than once the standard of perfection is pulled out and birds are weighed and such because they just aren't what the standard calls for....

 

[rachels.haven]

Btw, I don't have bad feelings towards the other saanen owner. I think she was asked to bring her aged doe for numbers...and every milking saanen but our two scratched. She mostly breeds lamanchas. The champion legs don't even count unless there are 8 does in milk of that breed and at least 10 does total. So she got...a pretty ribbon and a photo op.

I don't think saanens and the other cooler climate type goat breeds do as well here especially when it gets hot and it was 93ish that day.

 

[Ridgetop]

That judge was crazy! Fat dairy goats are bad milkers! A good dairy goat is supposed to be lean and sharp boned. Udders are 50% of the points. No udder, that doe should be at the back of the class! Definitely write that judge's name down and do not show under him again! This is very disappointing for you after all the work to get ready for the show. And makes me angry to hear that the show committee hired a bad judge. Depending on the size of the show, they may have hired a local judge to save money on housing and meals. What were the comments on the chubby animals?

Kastdemur only had Nubians when we were showing. Karen Senn was the breeder. She was active in ADGA for years. I think that Kastdemur's wins on politics a lot of the time. They had nice animals. Karen's mother was a breeder and, I think, a judge as well. I guess her daughter has taken over now. We used to win a lot with DS2's LaMancha's. They did not carry excess flesh, were heavy milkers, and were mostly based on Lucky Star bloodlines. Things must have changed a lot if judges are promoting fleshy dairy does.

I know in lamanchas there's a more tubey type that doesn't milk as well and is usually loaded down with "manufactured depth" aka fat and the other type is a deeper, wider, naturally squarer dairy-ier type

Square dairy animals are not desirable. There must be length of body to balance depth. Depth of body has always been desired, since depth of body is where the kids are developed, and the rumen and lungs must have room to expand during that process. However it is not achieved by excess fat, rather the ribs must be well sprung and the distance from the wither to the underneath of the body must be deep. Depth of body should never be equated with fat. And again, depth of body must be balanced by longer length from brisked to tail. I never saw winning "tubular" dairy goats, other than a few kids that have not finished developing. However, does in milk don't usually win if they are carrying excess rolls of fat. Fat rolls behind the elbows would be unsightly as well as show that the doe was not dairy in type. I can't believe the Standard has changed that much. Glad we are not showing any longer.

Shows start in late spring after kidding season ends when everyone is in milk. Shows then continue all summer long, stopping after breeding season when the does are being dried up. Showing during excessively hot months is hard on the does in the heat although the shows have to be held now before breeding season starts in late August/September. Our Los Angeles County Fair was one of the latest (and hottest) in early September. The earliest one was in March in central California and the goats were not required to be shaved because of the cold weather. The kids did go to a small one in October, but some entrants showed dry milkers then. Not many entries but good premiums.

Write down that judge's name and make sure not to show under him again. Also go to some other shows and see how those judges are placing animals, the weight condition of those animals, and comments. It is possible that judge was a local judge hired to save money on travel and meal expenses. Travel and meal expenses must be paid when hiring a judge living more than a certain number of miles from the show site. That adds to the cost of the show. Large shows/fairs can afford to hire better known judges in the hope of attracting more entries. Some small fairs/shows try to hire locally.

Did this fair pay premiums (prize $$) for placements? Was this a large show? How many in each class?

The doe with the huge teats would have lost points on those teats. Teat shape is considered in udder points. Otherwise, a nice sharp doe.

 

[Ridgetop]

Don't give up. Showing can be a lot of fun. Especially in the Youth shows for the kids. Some of those kids have goats that win over the adults as well though. DS2 did. Just keep breeding to the standard.

Remember also you had a bad back set with disposing of so many of your young stock. Many of those kids would probably have placed in that show. Kids can carry a little more fat sine they are still growing, and there are no points for udder yet. Next year take some junior kids to see how they compete. Breed for more length to balance the squareness. Length does not mean tubular. Your does are lovely. First shows rarely result in big wins. Sometimes in any wins. My boys lost consistently with the same does they later won champion with due to their showmanship. They tried to stack their dairy does like dogs and sheep instead of having the rear feet a bit more under and pinching the does down on the back just in front of the hip. Once they learned to show properly, they began to win. DS2 won more than DS3 because he had better stock, but both placed highly in Youth Showmanship consistently.

DON'T GIVE UP! GOAT SHOW JUDGING CAN BE JUST AS POLITICAL AS ANY OTHER.

 

[rachels.haven]

You're saying what I thought was reality about the standards. And the rolls WERE unsightly. We went beyond elbow fat there.

I think this was a fairly small show with ND as the biggest breed as they are taking over in our area. There were like 80 ND total and scraping by with the minimum for most of the other breeds outside of the nubians.
There were small premiums. I forgot to follow up on mine. I think I got $7 for the 5th placings and like $15 for reserve. I don't mind though because it's $200 for a cvi so ...drop in the bucket even if I remembered.
The judge kept referring to the fat as "strength". They didn't usually have the spring of rib and depth and width that I thought went with strength but maybe I'm confusing that with dairy strength? I'll remember him if I show again.

Sorry, I meant square as in hocks naturally under pins. I know they have to be long, dairy wedge shaped, and deep-if they are not pregnancy is hard on them. No room. And they are not good milkers. No room. The Kastdemur's lamanchas I've seen lately tend to lack the depth and have incorrectly angled legs so they have to be scrunched down for their rear legs to be square. They're more tube shaped and people stick their rear legs out behind them like ND to get level rumps.

Lol, our local judge is a nice lady who is our district rep and she is off traveling judging and also does appraisal. She breeds saanens and when she's home lives 25 minutes from me. I've gotten to see her saanens and they are what I am breeding towards except they have ears. I've helped her grand daughter when one of their goats had problems when she was out of town. She's also offered me a saanen buckling before and this spring if things look okay on my disease front ill probably take her up on it. Apparently when she judges a lot of people are unhappy because she dings goats for being "over conditioned". I don't think the ND and Nubian breeders that I saw there that day would like that. I don't love it but things would make a little more sense in that context. My goats do not look like ND. I don't think the standard has changed. I think you're right and this was a bad judge. The does were more conditioned than the sea lions next door to the barn.


So...it sounds like I need to shop for shows if I want to go?

Someday I'll try again.

 

[rachels.haven]

Now I'm snooping around other people's pics trying to decide if the goats were really as over conditioned as I remember. (The older saanen doe doesn't look fat in her pics taken at the end, idk about her)
I've decided this is making me crazy and I would have to go back in time and be there to double check because no one has pics of the goats from behind or above. Just the side or really close udder pics. You'd have to be there. Time to let it all go. That was uncomfy, but now it's over.

 

[rachels.haven]

My last thought is that we just may not have that many great dairy goat genetics in our area, and the breeders are making up for it by packing them with fat and some judges like that. I do not think the standard has changed-just a few of the judges' opinions.

 

[Mini Horses]

Maybe they're used to judging Boer.

I have both...Saanen & Boer. So if anyone comes to the farm I make sure they're not adjacent. It looks like I'm feeding one group & not the other. It's just dairy!!! Breeds are not alike. Your fine, judge is nutty. Same with all, Different body Different purpose.

Angus -- Jersey
Boer -- La Mancha
Clydesdale -- Arabian

 

[Ridgetop]

"over conditioned".

"Over conditioned" is the kind way of the judge saying "your animal is too fat"!

It looks like I'm feeding one group & not the other. It's just dairy!!!

Good dairy animals next to meat animals look like they are being starved to people that don't know dairy. Or meat. LOL

Sadly it looks like some judges are choosing "over conditioned" dairy animals to place. This is bad for the industry. However, it also shows that bad/political judging has found its way into dairy goats. Politics always played a part but at least when the popular breeders were breeding to the standard it wasn't that obvious. Now it looks like it is.

When your local judge friend returns have her give you a stern critique of your animals.

 

[rachels.haven]

Man, my white leghorns are so clucking broody!

Ceramic goose eggs to better train them to the rollout got the hormones rolling instead of the eggs. (Just one, btw)