Ridgetop
Herd Master
Amazed that it worked! Great idea.
SageHill Ranch Journal
- Thread starter SageHill
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #852
SageHill
Herd Master
Thanks to yesterday's 1/4 in of rain (late afternoon and evening) I cancelled herding lessons. The ground is fairly saturated and a 1/4 in plus the grove run off makes the big arena a bit messy. Translate that to I got to take them all out to graze this morning instead of sorting and teaching.
I put the collar on the mean mama ewe again, and surprise - I almost didn't need to use it!! She is learning the dogs are not a threat and to respect them. I'm not mean I do give her animal cracker to put it on.
And .... tomorrow a big delivery!! Well hope it all gets here tomorrow, tracking says it does.
The lambs are growing fast - another week or so and it'll be slow counting babies vs mamas!
SO --- question --- at what age do you all breed ewes for the first time? or do you look for size/weight/age combo? I know I can look it up and all but I figure with all experience everyone has here I can get a better answer.
I put the collar on the mean mama ewe again, and surprise - I almost didn't need to use it!! She is learning the dogs are not a threat and to respect them. I'm not mean I do give her animal cracker to put it on.
And .... tomorrow a big delivery!! Well hope it all gets here tomorrow, tracking says it does.
The lambs are growing fast - another week or so and it'll be slow counting babies vs mamas!
SO --- question --- at what age do you all breed ewes for the first time? or do you look for size/weight/age combo? I know I can look it up and all but I figure with all experience everyone has here I can get a better answer.
Ridgetop
Herd Master
Size /weight is best indicator since you want s ewe to be large enough that the pregnancy will not stunt her growth as she carries the lamb. 11 months to 145 months is good if you don't have access to a scale or are not sure if the ewe is large enough. Also, regardless of size, weight, age you mainly need to focus on the ewe's condition score. It should be about 2.5 -3.0. Then you should feed slightly higher protein feed for several weeks prior to breeding to encourage slight weight gain while help the ewe to produce more eggs breeding. This encourages the ewe to drop more eggs.
After the ewes are bred drop back to normal feeding practices since you don't want them to gain too much. If they drop too much weight as they approach lambing you can gradually add some additional protein feed. Remember that the ewe will not have as much rumen space for roughage when she is big with growing lambs so a protein concentrate will help keep weight on if it is a problem. The ewe should not gain to much during the end of the pregnancy since it will make for big lambs and harder delivery. You can increase the protein and roughage after lambing for lactation, and if she is a young first timer, to help her complete her own growth.
After the ewes are bred drop back to normal feeding practices since you don't want them to gain too much. If they drop too much weight as they approach lambing you can gradually add some additional protein feed. Remember that the ewe will not have as much rumen space for roughage when she is big with growing lambs so a protein concentrate will help keep weight on if it is a problem. The ewe should not gain to much during the end of the pregnancy since it will make for big lambs and harder delivery. You can increase the protein and roughage after lambing for lactation, and if she is a young first timer, to help her complete her own growth.
Baymule
Herd Master
I breed at 9 months to a year old. I wean ram lands at 2 months old, ewe lambs at 3-4 months.
- Thread starter
- #855
SageHill
Herd Master
Thanks! I do have a scale and have weights on everyone (o do that every few months). Just about ready to do the weights, hooves, worm and vax in the next week. I haven't done condition scores on them but will now -- I'll add that in to the weight etc. that I'll be doing. Just looking they look good to me - not skinny and not fat. Nicely muscled. The two young ones are 8 mos old and then I’ve got the current bunch of ewe lambs. Trying to get a good handle on who and when ahead of time.
Ridgetop
Herd Master
Another thing to keep in mind is the weather when they lamb - you don't want them trying to lamb in August and September heat. 
And you want to determine when is your best sale market for lambs. If you are selling at the stock yard auction, check when the different ethnic holidays are as well as Easter. You want them to arrive at the stock yard about a week or two before the holiday since most of these buyers like to buy in advance. If you have one auction you use, call them and ask when is the best time to bring in young lambs. They should be able to tell you. They like them to bring the maximum because they get a percentage as commission.
Once you know what month you want to sell, count back 5 months and that is when you want them bred by. Expose the ewes about 2 weeks before that date to make sure of getting them bred. You want a condition score of about 3.0 but can give a little grain to encourage some weight gain just before breeding since this encourages them to drop more eggs. Then after they are bred go back to regular grazing since they should not gain a lot of weight during pregnancy. Most wool breeds will not lamb before January so having weaned lambs around December and January is also a good sale time since there aren't any available. Do not castrate since that will cause a drop in weight, instead pull rams straight off the teat, into the trailer, and straight to the auction. They will retain their milk fed thickness and look better for the auction ring.
If you have young ewes that fall just after that breeding time, breed them anyway since you can take another crop in after the first. Buyers that like your lambs the first time will jump at the second batch. If you are bringing in lambs routinely every few months buyers will start watching for your lambs.
And you want to determine when is your best sale market for lambs. If you are selling at the stock yard auction, check when the different ethnic holidays are as well as Easter. You want them to arrive at the stock yard about a week or two before the holiday since most of these buyers like to buy in advance. If you have one auction you use, call them and ask when is the best time to bring in young lambs. They should be able to tell you. They like them to bring the maximum because they get a percentage as commission. Once you know what month you want to sell, count back 5 months and that is when you want them bred by. Expose the ewes about 2 weeks before that date to make sure of getting them bred. You want a condition score of about 3.0 but can give a little grain to encourage some weight gain just before breeding since this encourages them to drop more eggs. Then after they are bred go back to regular grazing since they should not gain a lot of weight during pregnancy. Most wool breeds will not lamb before January so having weaned lambs around December and January is also a good sale time since there aren't any available. Do not castrate since that will cause a drop in weight, instead pull rams straight off the teat, into the trailer, and straight to the auction. They will retain their milk fed thickness and look better for the auction ring.
If you have young ewes that fall just after that breeding time, breed them anyway since you can take another crop in after the first. Buyers that like your lambs the first time will jump at the second batch. If you are bringing in lambs routinely every few months buyers will start watching for your lambs.
- Thread starter
- #857
SageHill
Herd Master
I've been trying to get as much grazing time in as possible before the mornings turn warm. All an effort to minimize crossing paths with any snakes. We've already had to permanently relocate ~10 noisy reptiles. That's a ton for this time of year. They're out there, that's life, just need to be smart about things.
Missed the window to get prolapse ewe to auction before Easter. DH is volunteering to do taxes for seniors and one of his days is Monday when she'd have taken up. With the ram lambs not all ready to go decided to wait it out for them. A few possible local sales on them as well. Thx for the pricing input everyone - glad I've got a scale.
I've been using Zo (the younger dog) to do some simple chores and he's done well. My goal has been to have a working team - Obi and Zo for the grazing job which includes moving down the ranch road. They've both worked grazing one their own. I used both boys to move the sheep out of the corral yesterday and since all was going well we took the sheep for a walk about in the turnout pasture. It was great! All went well and when Zo wasn't sure, he'd stop and watch Obi, then work. I've know all along and said as much that Zo is an Obi Wanna-Be. SO TRUE.
This morning I decided - no, I felt, it was time. The three of us went out to the barn, fed the ram and his pal, I collared mama ewe, and we took the mamas, babies, and two young ewes out. I am over the moon with how it all worked. Boy boys worked together, ok Zo was a little pushy at first, but settled in pretty quickly. He didn't knock me over with sheep. He's still finding his working distance. Close, far, just right. This is a first for me - working two of my own dogs at the same time (maybe I did it small scale and not grazing 25 yrs ago?). I know it's been said that one will learn from the other, I haven't put much stock in that for the herding dogs herding. It is true though - especially when the younger wants to be like the older. I know a lot of dogs that would blow off their training and run amok. Of course, those are not dogs that work a ranch. They're the "weekend warrior" type. Training once or a few times a week and then go run in herding trials. 
not my dogs, I've lost that desire to "prove" my dogs in herding trials. They work. I know you all understand that angle esp with the LGDs, but there are those who say "prove your dogs work, bet they can't run in a trial". My come back more than likely would be "I wouldn't trust your dog on my easiest sheep". I've digressed.
SOOOOO -- once we got to a grazing area Zo and Obi started in on setting up their personal "fences" for the sheep. Obi, the pro, automatically shifted into mode. Zo, the student, was fast and a little too close, then not, then just right, repeat. His "too close" didn't send sheep any where other than to be most close-knit as they munched. All good.
I had Obi lay down - which he chose the "best spot" for himself - a bit higher than the sheep where he could survey the whole picture. He watched Zo and the sheep. That thought bubble over his head said - 'the kid's good, he just needs to pace himself' . The look on Obi's face was shear contentment. The knowing veteran eye.
I could tell when Zo hit his mental limit. He'd start making mistakes. Nothing huge or causing the sheep concern (they already know him from chore work and grazing) - I'd make Zo stay and tell Obi "OK" and Obi would drop into work mode - moving, holding or grazing. Zo would watch intently. I'd back and forth with them - one then the other and a lot of the two of them both working. Zo tried hard to do the same as Obi. He at one point actually did "tree" which is move the sheep out of and/or away from a tree (typically an avocado) or bush. Though Zo actually did it on his own when some lambs started munching on a bush. I would've let the lambs be, but Zo calmly moved them out and then went back to work. The very cool thing about that --- Obi was there and honored Zo.
The Boyz (this is not a "set up pic" they actually did this on their own)
-----------------------------------------------------
Moving the flock
--------------------------------------------------------------
Setting up their grazing "fence"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crossing paths. In the beginning they'd crash into each other, after a bit they figured it out.
(Obi already knew how - Zo (ha ha) had no clue and looked dumbfounded when it happened).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Zo choosing to do "tree" (getting lambs away from the bush) on his own while
Obi watched honoring Zo.
Dang I love this. It's raining now. I made some Premier1 orders the last few weeks - lots of pieces.
a bunch of their Primagate panels, stop gate and a guillotine gate other pieces to make things work.
It's all in the barn now - though I did have it out in the corral to put the sheep through the panels to get them used to them. Probably could've skipped that step, but why not stack the odds in my favor and have them
see the panels and not freak out when put through them when I need to do things. With the wonderful wetness I'll run them through in the aisle as well a few times. The logic worked well when I got the "tilt-a-whirl" last year.
No rushing things - don't want anything broken or anyone hurt. Fast is slow, slow is fast.
DH got the shade up in the corral area - he had helpers!
That's a ton for this time of year. They're out there, that's life, just need to be smart about things.Missed the window to get prolapse ewe to auction before Easter. DH is volunteering to do taxes for seniors and one of his days is Monday when she'd have taken up. With the ram lambs not all ready to go decided to wait it out for them. A few possible local sales on them as well. Thx for the pricing input everyone - glad I've got a scale.
I've been using Zo (the younger dog) to do some simple chores and he's done well. My goal has been to have a working team - Obi and Zo for the grazing job which includes moving down the ranch road. They've both worked grazing one their own. I used both boys to move the sheep out of the corral yesterday and since all was going well we took the sheep for a walk about in the turnout pasture. It was great! All went well and when Zo wasn't sure, he'd stop and watch Obi, then work. I've know all along and said as much that Zo is an Obi Wanna-Be. SO TRUE.
This morning I decided - no, I felt, it was time. The three of us went out to the barn, fed the ram and his pal, I collared mama ewe, and we took the mamas, babies, and two young ewes out. I am over the moon with how it all worked. Boy boys worked together, ok Zo was a little pushy at first, but settled in pretty quickly. He didn't knock me over with sheep
. He's still finding his working distance. Close, far, just right. This is a first for me - working two of my own dogs at the same time (maybe I did it small scale and not grazing 25 yrs ago?). I know it's been said that one will learn from the other, I haven't put much stock in that for the herding dogs herding. It is true though - especially when the younger wants to be like the older. I know a lot of dogs that would blow off their training and run amok. Of course, those are not dogs that work a ranch. They're the "weekend warrior" type. Training once or a few times a week and then go run in herding trials. not my dogs, I've lost that desire to "prove" my dogs in herding trials. They work. I know you all understand that angle esp with the LGDs, but there are those who say "prove your dogs work, bet they can't run in a trial". My come back more than likely would be "I wouldn't trust your dog on my easiest sheep". I've digressed. SOOOOO -- once we got to a grazing area Zo and Obi started in on setting up their personal "fences" for the sheep. Obi, the pro, automatically shifted into mode. Zo, the student, was fast and a little too close, then not, then just right, repeat. His "too close" didn't send sheep any where other than to be most close-knit as they munched. All good.
I had Obi lay down - which he chose the "best spot" for himself - a bit higher than the sheep where he could survey the whole picture. He watched Zo and the sheep. That thought bubble over his head said - 'the kid's good, he just needs to pace himself' . The look on Obi's face was shear contentment. The knowing veteran eye.
I could tell when Zo hit his mental limit. He'd start making mistakes. Nothing huge or causing the sheep concern (they already know him from chore work and grazing) - I'd make Zo stay and tell Obi "OK" and Obi would drop into work mode - moving, holding or grazing. Zo would watch intently. I'd back and forth with them - one then the other and a lot of the two of them both working. Zo tried hard to do the same as Obi. He at one point actually did "tree" which is move the sheep out of and/or away from a tree (typically an avocado) or bush. Though Zo actually did it on his own when some lambs started munching on a bush. I would've let the lambs be, but Zo calmly moved them out and then went back to work. The very cool thing about that --- Obi was there and honored Zo.
The Boyz (this is not a "set up pic" they actually did this on their own)
-----------------------------------------------------
Moving the flock
--------------------------------------------------------------
Setting up their grazing "fence"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crossing paths. In the beginning they'd crash into each other, after a bit they figured it out.
(Obi already knew how - Zo (ha ha) had no clue and looked dumbfounded when it happened).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Zo choosing to do "tree" (getting lambs away from the bush) on his own while
Obi watched honoring Zo.
Dang I love this. It's raining now. I made some Premier1 orders the last few weeks - lots of pieces.
a bunch of their Primagate panels, stop gate and a guillotine gate other pieces to make things work.
It's all in the barn now - though I did have it out in the corral to put the sheep through the panels to get them used to them. Probably could've skipped that step, but why not stack the odds in my favor and have them
see the panels and not freak out when put through them when I need to do things. With the wonderful wetness I'll run them through in the aisle as well a few times. The logic worked well when I got the "tilt-a-whirl" last year.
No rushing things - don't want anything broken or anyone hurt. Fast is slow, slow is fast.
DH got the shade up in the corral area - he had helpers!
Weldman
Herd Master
Tarps here are only good for covering the trees they get caught in after wind storm rips them out within a week of putting them up. If manage to get one to stay, it will be in shreds within a month.
High Desert Cowboy
True BYH Addict
Having worked with “Heading” and “Heeling” dogs, it would be interesting to work with these kind of dogs. I’ve heard that’s what German shepherds and malinois were bred for, a “living fence” that maintained stock in one area. How do you train them to maintain a specific area?
- Thread starter
- #860
SageHill
Herd Master
Tarps would do the same here. That’s heavy duty shade cloth they manage pretty good here. Add in that’s on the lee side of the barn with about a 17’ cut slope on the other - fairly protected. 30-40 mph gusts are not uncommon.
