Settle a Debate about weaning....

[broke down ranch]

Unless you leave the kid on mom until SHE weans it, there will be some hurt feelings for all concerned. In my experience, the longer the wait the more traumatic it is. If mom and baby never have a chance to bond with each other there is not as much separation anxiety....

 

[trestlecreek]

Yes, goat milk would be the best for a bottle baby in my opinion.

Yes, to me, if you were going to pull, you would want to pull the kid at birth. That would avoid any of the bonding the kid/dam would have.
If you let them bond, then pull, the baby/dam would be upset and the baby would have a hard time latching on to the bottle.

I have heard of people supplementing w/bottle while leaving the kid on the doe. If supplementing, I would start that min-hour after born as well.

 

[cmjust0]

We tried supplementing one of triplets once, at four weeks old. Partly because we thought the mama was going to run out before they got to 8 weeks (which she didn't...not even close, but that's another story) and partly because the doe we were milking was flat layin' it down and we had more milk than you could shake a big crooked stick at.

Anyhow, first we tried doeling #1...she was having NO PART OF IT. She slobbered up the nipple and the milk got cold, so we ditched it.

Next feeding, we tried doeling #2...she also wanted absolutely NOTHING to do with that bottle.. And, again...slobber, cold milk, ditched it.

Next time, we tried the buckling...he was like "Hey, what the heck is that! Get that thing outta my ohheythatswarmmilknomnomnomnonom..." and scrambled for bottles with the other bottle babies from that point on.

The hell of it was, he would take a 24oz bottle while his sisters were working their mama over like a speedbag, and once he had that down, he'd run straight over and bounce one of them outta the way to strip her clean.



That, however, is something I'd consider to be a TOTAL FLUKE, at best....getting a kid to take a bottle once it's used to a teat is widely regarded as an exercise in frustration.

 

[cyanne]

If the choice is snatch at birth or wait and then pull the kid I guess my vote goes for taking the kid right away to minimize the stress and make it easier to bottle train.

I would add, though that you want to take into consideration how much milk you actually need and how much time and hassle you want to deal with.

I decided to go with leaving the kids on my does because I just couldn't imagine finding the time to bottle feed kids. I went with the method described on the Fiasco Farms website where you leave the kids with mom for 2 wks (which was no loss because the milk still has yucky colostrum in it for up to 2 wks anyway), then start penning them up separately at night and milking the doe in the morning before putting them all back together.

I found that, with this method, I had more than enough milk for us and it saved me the hassle of bottle feeding. The doe increases her production to meet demand so I just considered the kids to be helping me out with the evening milking. Letting the mom raise her own kids and have that bond with them was just sort of a little bonus and I enjoyed watching them play and interact.

As for the ideas that bottle babies are more tame, after having a bottle raised buck around for a little while (we sold him because he was such a pest) I decided that there was such a thing as *too* friendly. I just make sure to spend lots of time with the kids, giving them positive attention to make friends from early on.

Now, if your family needs more milk on a daily basis than the doe can provide in 12 hours and you have the time and patience to bottle raise, then I guess the preferable way to do it would be to pull right away and start the bottle before they get used to nursing and develop the bond with their mother. Probably less traumatic all around.

 

[kimmyh]

IF I still had dairy goats I would pull kids at birth and bottle feed pasturized colostrum and milk. However, the only reason I would go that route is to increase and regulate the length of lactation, because I would still annually test for CAE. IF I was working full time, milking twice a day, and not being home to bottle feed many times a day, I would have to accept that some kids might not make it on my schedule, it would be a fact of life. So to answer the original question, pulling kids is a personal choice that needs to be made according to your lifestyle and time constraints. Pulling for some is the right thing too do, and for others, dam raising is the best.

 

[username taken]

That, however, is something I'd consider to be a TOTAL FLUKE, at best....getting a kid to take a bottle once it's used to a teat is widely regarded as an exercise in frustration.

cmj, I completely agree with you; but I have to lol because I've got a FLUKE kid here, a 5 wk old angora kid; I took her off mum this morning for a petting zoo show, and this afternoon and evening she guzzled a bottle! Funny lil girl

 

[bbredmom]

If the choice is snatch at birth or wait and then pull the kid I guess my vote goes for taking the kid right away to minimize the stress and make it easier to bottle train.

I would add, though that you want to take into consideration how much milk you actually need and how much time and hassle you want to deal with.

I decided to go with leaving the kids on my does because I just couldn't imagine finding the time to bottle feed kids. I went with the method described on the Fiasco Farms website where you leave the kids with mom for 2 wks (which was no loss because the milk still has yucky colostrum in it for up to 2 wks anyway), then start penning them up separately at night and milking the doe in the morning before putting them all back together.

I found that, with this method, I had more than enough milk for us and it saved me the hassle of bottle feeding. The doe increases her production to meet demand so I just considered the kids to be helping me out with the evening milking. Letting the mom raise her own kids and have that bond with them was just sort of a little bonus and I enjoyed watching them play and interact.

As for the ideas that bottle babies are more tame, after having a bottle raised buck around for a little while (we sold him because he was such a pest) I decided that there was such a thing as *too* friendly. I just make sure to spend lots of time with the kids, giving them positive attention to make friends from early on.

Now, if your family needs more milk on a daily basis than the doe can provide in 12 hours and you have the time and patience to bottle raise, then I guess the preferable way to do it would be to pull right away and start the bottle before they get used to nursing and develop the bond with their mother. Probably less traumatic all around.

Sorry I've been away! My notification about the thread got eaten by the spammonster....

I think this is what we have decided to do-keep them on momma for a week or so, then pen separately at night, milk, and then put back together. When I pointed out there were only TWO humans in the house to drink and process all that milk, from an alpine and a sannen nonetheless, he started to come around. And we only have five goats, all rescues, who are pets, lawnmowers, and entertainment! Definitely not in it for the money....

And knock on wood, I've never had anything but single births, from any of my does.

And my dam raised babies are just as bratty as any bottle raised I've ever met. Especially if there are graham crackers in my pocket!

Now if the dang does would just drop me some babies! I swear, they do it on pupose....bag up, then deflate, bag up, then deflate, form hallows, and then fill back out, loosen ligaments, and then tighten!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

WHY DO I HAVE GOATS!

 

[cmjust0]

Let me know when you figure that last part out. Some days, I can't help but ask myself the same question.

 

[ksalvagno]

Milking once a day for milk for yourselves sounds very reasonable plus with work schedules and everything is certainly doable. Sounds like a great plan. Plus making it easier on yourselves not to have to bottle feed!

 

[bbredmom]

Soooooo.....of course it didn't work out as planned.

January 8th was the coldest day in 25 years in Arkansas. Future Husband went out to the barn to check the does, and next thing I hear are two screaming baby kids. Momma had birthed them, half cleaned them, and was completely ignoring them. It was 14F at this point, no way they could stay in the barn, even with the heat lamps they were just too little.

I told him to go on to work ( last week of a construction job you dont want to miss), I'd stay home warm them up and try and get momma to nurse. She'd been a great mom last year (of course, she popped in february during 60F temps..) so I thought it be no problem. Got them all bundled on the heating pad, their temp when I started was around 95, too cold!

Finally got the bigger of the two boys up to temp and screaming for milk. Both had gotten too quiet and limp for me up to this point. I also had no car, so I called my dad and asked him to run to tractor supply, buy more heat lamps and colostrum replacer just in case.

Took little man out uber bundled in my coat. It was now about and hour later, sun was up, it was all of 19F. Etta was just in the birthing pen, chewing hay, drinking. She's apparently passed and eaten the afterbirth already. I pinched the baby to make him scream more, and she immediately started screaming back. Good Sign!

I tried for fiften minutes to get her to nurse. She had NO interest. He wanted to, he would latch on, but she would immediately kick and butt him away, even getting violent with me. At this point I knew they needed colostrum so I said screw it, and milked out as much as I could into a bottle.

As I'm finishing up I hear this faint "baaaa". I think its the wind or the baby boy, so I ignore it. Again, now in a chorus "BAAAAAAAA!!!!"

You've gotta be kidding me.

Calamity dropped twins as well, and didn't even clean them. At this point, my calm facade dropped, I said Many bad words, snatched up the older boy, the twins (who were even smaller!), shoved them into my jacket, snatched clamity and threw her into the birthing pen with Etta, and ran into the house. It was now freezing rain at this point.

I got on the phone with my dad, who had run to walmart to buy dog sweaters. I told him to get two more, and to hurry home!

I then called Joshua, who didn't answer, and said "So, yeah, everything just went to hell. Two more rejected babies, Calamity hasn't dropped her udder at all, Etta, just almost killed me and the baby, I need you to come home now. PLEASE!!!"

So imagine this, folks. Here I am, no transportation, frozen pipes, four screaming cold goat kids, two mothers with little to now interest in cleaning or feeding them, and I've never babysat much less bottle fed anything before.

I took what little colostrum I got out of etta, mixed it with the replacer and some butter milk, and the babies chugged down like there was no tomorrow. Dad got home sooner, his job was to hold the babies while I set them up a dog kennel in the house with the heating pad and heaters (I dont have central HVAC). Joshua gets home and immediately tries to go milk the moms. He grew up on a goat farm, I figured he would have more luck than me. Nope, there was nothing in Calamity, and next to nothing in Etta.

So between the hours of 5:30 and noon, I had four babies born and no mommas to feed them. by 1:00, everything was under control.

We kept trying every day for the next week to get the mommas to feed, but to no avail. After talking to my friend Allison the goat breeder and reading about survival methods of mammals from Grad School, I think it was just too damn cold. They didn't want to give up the calories, they knew the babies probably wouldn't make it anyway, so its better to let them die than risk themselves dieing.

They are now getting bottle fed twice a day, are happy, healthy babies. We are getting 3-4 cups per milking, so 6-8 cups a day, which we supplement with SavAKid. I've had no scours or problems except I've got three pocket bucks and a bossy nanny in training.

So there ya go. And here are videos for your viewing pleasure. These are from their first week of growth. The sweater video is the first day it was warm enough for them to be outside, and they've been ouside for the last two weeks without any problems. The moms still dont like them, the males are actually very sweet and protective. My farm is soooo backwards.

Oh, and their names are

Zeus

Poseidon

Ares

And Athena

All those pics are from that first day after we got them fed, clean and warm.