Southern by Choice's Teaching Moments- Indoor LGD! Badger

Beekissed

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My female LGD is FAT. She is getting 4 cups a day plus green beans and I can't get the weight to budge. She will be going in for some blood work soon and starting a prescription weight loss food; she is always hungry. On the other hand my male LGD eats 8 cups a day and is on the thin side. My BCs eat about 1.5 cups a day and are pretty perfect.

That's something I have found out as well. Just like people have different metabolisms, dogs do as well. My Lab/GP mix dog liked to nibble around at her food all day and wasn't a particularly hungry acting dog. 2 c. of feed a day kept her optimal...anything over that and she got fat. She was around 5-6 yrs old when we got her, so likely due to being an older dog and she had had no competition for food where she lived before and for the first several years with us.

Then along comes Jake. Couldn't put weight on Jake, no matter how much he ate...vet checked him out all over and said some dogs are just like that. That went on for a couple of years but he finally evened out and stays fit on 2-2.5 c. a day...anything more than that and he gets fat. He's got a very high metabolism, though, and moves constantly, whereas Lucy, the GP/Lab, was not a high energy dog and only moved often or fast if she were actively guarding/protecting..mostly at night.

Jake will eat anything and everything still, no matter how much he's had to eat, so I have to limit his feed even with his activity levels. He won't gulp a squirrel, though, but carries it around until it rots, so maybe he's slowing down in his old age of 10.

Now there's Ben...even when he was eating scads of deer meat, offal, and all my eggs on top of his daily ration, he never got fat on it but did grow well...and was still hungry acting. When he arrived as a pup I had a hard time getting him to eat much until I wormed him, then he seemed to snap out of it and started competing for food.

Sometimes I think that hungry acting is a lot about competition. Lucy was a picker until Jake came along, then she became a gulper because Jake was eating fast and hovering over her, waiting to eat her food if she left it. She learned not to leave it behind, but instead ate it quickly. She never did that before Jake came along. After that, she was another dog that could eat any time, any place, no matter how much or often.

Then Ben arrived and found that he couldn't pick at his food either, or Jake would snatch it, so Ben became a gulper also. Don't know if was due to needing wormed or if he was naturally a picker up until then, but considering how Lucy changed, I'm willing to bet Ben did the same thing. Survival of the quickest, in other words.

We'll see how he goes along. It reminds me of my boys...two big, one more slender. The more slender one constantly grazes and eats more than the other two put together, eats a way worse diet, doesn't put on the weight, but isn't exactly very active...takes weight off fast too. The other two don't eat as much as you would think guys that big would eat, are much more active, but can't take off that weight. Bigger person/dog doesn't necessarily mean they need more calories to maintain a large frame and big bones, just means they are genetically programmed to be bigger on the same amount or less feed than smaller people/dogs.
 

Southern by choice

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Spaying a female dog makes difference too. If older they will seriously pack on pounds. Neutered males will too if done after a certain age.
The gulp issue is often usually environmentally induced.


Typically LGD breeds do not eat all the time, they are not wired that way. Most are deliberately slow. Very very rare for a LGD to scarf down food. Most actually chew their food, they do not inhale food. For them to do their jobs for hundreds to possibly thousands of years, constant or ravenous eating would be counterproductive to their use and purpose. There is generally a cause. Some may have an enzyme issue. Most dogs that are always hungry are typically having parasitic issues or underfed. The issue with fecals on dogs is that some kinds of parasites live in different areas throughout the colon... so some do not show up in fecals... you could run 10 before they show up. Most do not have any idea of the protocol for worming LGD's - it is not the same as for pets or housedogs. There are many wormers that work on ABC but not D&E ... Often incorrect protocol is given because most vets do not deal with actual working LGD's. LGD's are also susceptible to a variety of bacterial issues due to eating "kills" as well as LGD's clean up a variety of "stuff" in the barnyard and territory.

I share this as general information not any specific dog- so I am not saying this is Ben's issue or Sig's issue... just general. Naturally dogs have different metabolisms yes but there is a breed factor in there.
Many who read the LGD forum need to understand this and not just think something as normal that isn't.
Big difference in observation in X amount of dogs a person has raised, owned or bred and observation and data based on thousands of dogs in a more direct clinical way with a very broad breed base.

I can tell you it is hard for some new owners to grasp the idea of why they should de-worm again after leaving the farm and going to their new environment, or even having a fecal done. They think "well you have already de-wormed" and I haven't had a LGD on the land before etc." ... this is due to lack of knowledge and experience... there is little actual understanding of life cycles of parasite, stress etc induced overgrowth of bacteria, and general gut health. Some dogs will still do well but may struggle, others- and this is a biggy with the LGD breeds- are stunted. This is why so many small scrawny LGD's.
 

Carrosaur

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Moose is a year old and only 70lbs. He's pretty tall but very very lean. His sire was 100-110lbs and the dam was 85lbs. He was the smallest of ye litter (12 pups) but not a sickly runt. He has food out 24/7 but just doesn't eat a lot. Think that's just how he's built? His dad was very thick, mom was smaller but not as lean as moose.

Turned out fine because he's much more athletic than a lot of Pyrs I've met (LGD or not) and he's more agile around the geese.
 

Southern by choice

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Moose is a year old and only 70lbs. He's pretty tall but very very lean. His sire was 100-110lbs and the dam was 85lbs. He was the smallest of ye litter (12 pups) but not a sickly runt. He has food out 24/7 but just doesn't eat a lot. Think that's just how he's built? His dad was very thick, mom was smaller but not as lean as moose.

Turned out fine because he's much more athletic than a lot of Pyrs I've met (LGD or not) and he's more agile around the geese.

More than likely improper deworming by breeder has caused him to stunt. A one year old male pyr should be closer to 100 lbs. 90-95lbs on the small side. Do you know his height at the withers?
Just for scale- our "normal" male pups (Pyrenees) are between 90-98 lbs at 6 months... our shorter stockier males are 80-85 lbs at 6 months.

Was your boy neutered? Neutering a male too early can cause issues with growth plates... often causing "long legs".

Being the smallest in a large litter can cause the pup to remain small, this is true. Some dogs in a large litter will be smaller. Our runt of our Anatolian/Pyr litter (we had 11 pups- one died) was called "PT" short for Pocket Toli... he was super tiny. He is one of our largest pups now at 1 year of age. We had 2 that are smaller than all the others... they are only about 105-110 and about 30" at the withers. One is a mutant monster!
20151212_163732-1-jpg.13002


Here he is by a 2year old 110 lb pyr
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/leo-11-months-crazy.32175/#post-406464

Moose has another year and a half to grow, from here his height may slightly increase... his weight will change as he matures.

At the end of the day if he can do the job you need him to do than that is what is important. :)

I am kind of a stickler when it comes to some things. Sadly too many breeders breeding and not either knowing what they are doing or not wanting to spend the money to properly raise their pups.
 

Carrosaur

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I'll figure out his height in the morning for sure. I've met some of the other dogs from his litter, every female is bigger than him, not much taller but much thicker. One of the males now is 120ish, bigger than the sire.

He is not neutered, have no reason to neuter him yet!
 

Southern by choice

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I'll figure out his height in the morning for sure. I've met some of the other dogs from his litter, every female is bigger than him, not much taller but much thicker. One of the males now is 120ish, bigger than the sire.

He is not neutered, have no reason to neuter him yet!

What was your de-worming protocol?
Glad to hear he is not neutered. No need to if you are responsible and he doesn't roam. ;)
 

Carrosaur

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I'll have to pull all the vet records my breeder gave us and the wormings he got at the vet!

No he doesn't roam! He doesn't challenge our fence and I'm very grateful for that!
 

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We have geese, they are a pain. They became a pain when we added a pair of Toulouse. It was going into breeding season and the ganders were getting a bit aggressive, they would really charge, esp the Toulouse. So often I would have to make the gander submit. You do this by grabbing its neck and pushing it to the ground and forcing the body down also. It may sound awful but you don't hurt the animal you just pin it until it submits, then let go and he will go away. It never dawned on me that my 4 1/2 old pyr boy was watching all of this. The geese ALWAYS hated the pyrs because they are guard geese and to them the dogs did not belong. They would attack the dogs nonstop and the dogs would move on their way. LIKE THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO. But one day the geese decided to charge us again and "D" walked over put his mouth around the ganders neck, gently not really biting down, and took his giant paw and pushed down on his back. He held him there for about 45 seconds then let him go. Goose ran away. "D" had watched us and learned very early on how to handle the geese. I liked this, unfortunately I didn't think this through! In the end they developed a hate/hate relationship.

Yep, my mistake... not the dogs fault. To this day he does not like geese. All of our other guardians don't care but "D" (my best male) does. We sold the Toulouse. He will never attack a goose but will not allow geese near us or near the goats... period.

Our turkeys are territorial like the LGD's are... this is "Amy"... she is also territorial.
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/would-you-mess-with-this-dog-lol.30336/

Very glad you have trained your dog to be with waterfowl!:) Many have a hard time with waterfowl, poultry. It takes diligence. Some of mine never gave a bother others UGH! One of my worst is now full time poultry guardian. Up to 5 1/2 months she was a terror... by 7m it was as if nothing like that had ever occurred.
 

Carrosaur

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Oh yes I've spent my fair share of time sitting on top of my biggest gander, crazy bird, but I love him. I got very lucky with Moose. I've met some very bad Pyrs, I work for a dog trainer over the weekends and the pyrs that come through are crazy. Moose is very eager to please and trainable, he can do all kinds of fun tricks and he has great house manners.
 

Carrosaur

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Here's some pictures of his body just to show how little he is, don't mind his derpy face in the last picture! He's always gotta mess it up!
 

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