Southern by Choice's Teaching Moments- Indoor LGD! Badger

[sadieml]

This thread is AWESOME! I am just beginning to train our just turned 5 yr old Pit Bull to guard our goatie babies. They are still spending their nights in a converted crib in our garage for fear the foxes, coyotes, wild dogs and occasional mountain lion will decide to stop by for dinner. Kartoffel, my pit baby is such a baby he does not want to stay outside at night. My fault, really, he has been an indoor dog. It's just we can't afford to get another dog and he has this wonderful "nanny dog" instinct, and he loves the goats, so I thought...hey, GUARD DOG! But he absolutely does NOT want to stay outside. I am trying to coax him to stay with them in the pen in the afternoons when they take a break from browsing, but he constantly returns to the gate and whines for me. Can you give me some tips, Southern, how to get him to be happier outside and also how to behave with the goats? They hop around him and in his face with "come chase me" and he will some, and almost always stops when I say to, and doesn't nip at them, but I'm not sure how much (if any) of this I should allow. The boys almost ALWAYS start it, and really seem to enjoy it, but I think it can't be a good precedent to set. I don't want him chasing and terrifying other animals, even if these boys like it. It seems odd to me that a prey animal would ask a dog-seemingly a predator-to "come get me"! I know I should stop them, but they really do seem to love it. Maybe I'm reading them all wrong, but if he lies down, they come up and jumps in his face, and runs a few steps, then get back in his face again, over and over until he gets up and chases them. They do it repeatedly. Do they just think he's and odd-smelling goat? I really am lost. He thinks he's human, they think he's a goat, what a mess!! I guess it wouldn't really be MY LIFE if it made any sense!

 

[sadieml]

BTW, Kartoffel is German for potato. He definitely lives up(or is it down?) to his name!

 

[Beekissed]

Always think long term. Right now you do not want him in the coop. I am not understanding that simply because the only thing he has to guard is poultry. So what happens when you have a fox, mink, coon etc get in the henhouse? Why would you not want him in there?

He cannot guard the chickens from inside the coop because the pop doors won't be big enough for him to enter when he has his full growth, so his duties lie in never letting such an animal in there in the first place. Never had any animal breech the coop when the dogs are outside, except a black snake.

When he goes in the coop, he has been eating the chicken's feed and also the eggs, so I've been trying to teach him to stay out unless he's been invited inside...right now I'm not inviting him in so he won't be confused about the concept of staying out of the coop. Later on, when I feel he has grasped the concept of only coming in when I invite him in, I'll introduce that into our routine. That is a rare occurrence...the coop is too small for all of us to camp out in there, so usually the dogs are required to wait outside while I sit in there and evaluate the chickens as they eat.

This evening my mother heard him inside the coop, barking at the chickens. NOT a good thing. I'd like to teach him that the coop is just not for dogs...that's the chicken's safe place and they certainly don't need a dog barking at them in their only safe place. I'll keep at it....the coop blocker was working for awhile but it was causing the collar to move too much and abrade the skin of his neck, so that's a no go.

I guess what I need to know is how you get any of your dogs to mind you when it's important if they don't mind you when it's not important? I'm also unclear as to how one establishes trust when one cannot trust the dog? It sounds as if it's all one sided and the dogs rule, so if the human slips up and loses their trust, then the dog just won't work for them....I've never had an animal like that around, so not sure if that will even work here. Everyone has a job here and they are expected to learn it and do it...if they only do it when they feel like it, who needs that animal?

Can't even imagine how in the world one would even be able to have an animal around that only minds or works when THEY want to and will reject the human's direction if it's not done to their specifications...and how one would find out what that is, exactly, if they cannot speak dog.

So far it's not a problem and he's coming along nicely on training and is responding much like a dog his age should, but am looking down the road and trying to circumvent possible issues as they arise, so would love to find out how to surmise what is "bad" for this breed and what is not...in any other breed or dog I've had, barking at the owner when corrected is just not done...ever. Unless Timmy has fallen in the well or some such other emergency, I can see no conceivable reason why a dog should bark at their owner and especially not during a verbal correction.

 

[frustratedearthmother]

I'm certainly NOT as experienced as SBC - but is it possible to take away his access to the coop? Maybe make the opening smaller? That takes away his ability to get into the space and also takes away the 'battle of wills.'

Before owning a Pyr I would have not known what SBC means when she says to 'trust the dog'. I've had Pyr's for about 10 years now and I've had to change my whole way of thinking. I was accustomed to obedient dogs who were hard-wired to please. Pyr's, and I suspect, other LGD's in general are different.

In so many cases, I don't even need my Pyr to be 'obedient'. She is already gentle around my grandchildren and the elder folks who come to visit. She is big and she is excitable at times, so I was worried the first time the little ones were around her...but true to form...she walked up to my grandkids and when they went to pet her she simply laid down like she does around the goat kids. She let those human kids crawl all over her just like she lets the goat kids.

When my elderly father, who uses a walker, tottered out to the pasture to see the critters, she was equally as gentle with him. The difference was that she didn't lay down for him.. she stayed right by his leg offering herself as a brace if needed. It made my jaw drop and brought tears to my eyes. These dogs know.. they just know.

Ben is a puppy and he's going to make mistakes - but as he matures he will likely surprise you with his wisdom. I suspect you and he will forge a very special bond.

 

[Baymule]

@Beekissed I was given a GP because she killed chickens. her owners left her alone all day on 3 acres of free range chickens. About 10 months, they became squeaky toys. Her owners punished her terribly to no avail. By the time we got her, she HATED chickens and charged the coop barking and snarling. It took 2 years to win her trust and convert her to a chicken guard. Yes, as Southern said, these dogs are not your usual dog. They are stinko independent.

As far as the barking at you, our GP, Paris, has barked like that. She and Polly, our Aussie despise each other and it is always Polly that starts it. We keep them separated, but one morning Polly slipped between my legs and ran into Paris's yard. Polly attacked. Paris attacked back and guess who was getting killed? I was screaming, dragging Paris off Polly, and Polly would attack again. It was quite a mess.

My husband heard me screaming and ran out the back door. He grabbed Paris and hit her several times, trying to get her off Polly. I grabbed Polly and threw her in the house. Paris ran off a short way, turned around and WOOFed at us. She clearly felt she had been wrongly punished, after all Polly started it. We laughed, then felt bad for DH hitting Paris, and we both apologized to her. Polly got a trip to the vet for stitches and healed up just fine. My point is, when you over do it or hurt it's feelings, the dog knows it and will "tell" you.

 

[Beekissed]

I suspect you and he will forge a very special bond.

We already have! I can tell he looks to me for guidance and I really like his sweetness and calm personality....I'm just trying to wrap my mind around his "differentness" as I go along. I had a GP mix female and she wasn't a bit independent and gave me authority on all things when I was present...she was a lot like you describe your GP. She came to me already perfect and nothing needed changed except the excessive barking at times, but that was infrequent and she would stop when I told her to.

I cannot decrease the openings to the coop or the chickens could not get in at all...I raise a big breed and the rooster can barely fit through the door now. If I made it any smaller he'd never make it.

Time and his growth will take that issue away, so it's just a waiting game...I had the same problem with Jake when my back was turned. He was eating up to 2 doz. eggs per day at one point before I realized he was raiding the coop...nipped that in the bud but he'll still nip in and grab the eggs if I leave the door open for any length of time.

My pup hasn't yet reached an age when he can control his excitement around visitors, the elderly or small children, so that's mostly the area in which I need him to obey. When I say "get down" or "away" he needs to really be tuned into that....if he knocks people over now, imagine what will happen when he gets really big.

 

[Baymule]

Bee, when he gets really big, and matures, a lot of that will fix it's self. Paris loved my Mom and Mom would push her walker out to pet Paris. Paris would stand on her hind legs right in front of Mom, making us think she was going to land on Mom and knock her flat, but she never did. Paris danced in front of Mom and always, carefully dropped back down for Mom to pet her. Mom passed away this year on Father's Day.

In this picture, the benches were kept on top of the table to keep Parker, the black Lab/Great Dane from chewing them.

 

[Beekissed]

You have a beautiful Mom! And the dogs are pretty as well!

Ben has just started something that I'm trying to stop but not sure what will work on that...he's taken to putting his paw up on people if he doesn't get attention right away. His claws are puppy sharp, so he can do some damage with those big paws and Mom's skin tears if you breathe on it hard, so I'm really wanting him to stop that now...can't really wait until he ages on that one. He's also doing it to my little 18 mo. old grandbaby, so now she's scared of him and puts her hands out and backs away when he approaches...I'd really like to teach him to respect personal space.

 

[frustratedearthmother]

My Maddie thinks her world has ended if she earns direct disapproval. Sometimes, in her wish to be acknowledged, she will come between me and a goat that I'm trying to do 'whatever' with. Maybe I'm checking eyelids, or giving medication... but when I give her a sharp "get back" and turn my back on her you'd think I'd beat her with a stick, lol.

When she was younger I'd physically push her away and raise my voice and she learned. Some are more stubborn than others, but I see your point and understand your need to get him to be compliant in that circumstance.

Teenage years are tough - be they dogs or children!

 

[Beekissed]

My GP mix, Lucy, was like that...any verbal correction, no matter how light, she acted like I had beat her to death. VERY sensitive. This pup isn't quite that sensitive but I see a lot of that same sweetness and willingness to please in him that I saw in Lucy.

I've had to wash his neck a couple of times lately due to some abrasions and he just sits there like he's getting a spa treatment...closes his eyes and lets me do anything I want to him. He has a real gentleness of manner that I saw from the very first, so working around that and through that without breaking his spirit is more of a training of me than of him. I'll get my head around it, never fear...he and I already have a bond going and a mutual appreciation.

He's far, far easier than most pups out there and most people who meet him are duly impressed by his demeanor, so I don't want to give the impression he's a problem dog at all...he's not. Just a few little puppy things to work on, really.

I'm very impressed by what he's picked up without ever having to be told, just by watching Jake...I like that intuitiveness in a dog.