Starting from scratch with goats

[Latestarter]

Guard towers with armed guards and flood lights at all 4 corners. Lots of concertina wire rolls around the perimeter. I would use howitzers to soften up the nearby/surrounding forest area for predator prevention, and then use automatic trip wire claymores at critical points of ingress/egress But that's me

 

[Onyx]

I could totally do this.

OK I could do some of it. Guard towers... concertina wire. Boiling pitch. Pit traps.

As an added bonus I'll be well prepared for the zombie apocalypse.

 

[goatgurl]

@Latestarter just so you know, you're a mess. @Onyx you don't listen to him, you may find the guard towers and concertina wire handy and the howitzers would be good to have but i really don't think you'll need the claymores. lol. i totally agree with the 2x4 horse wire with some electric and i would also think you might find an LGD pretty handy too. i live on the edge of national forest and while we do have tons of coyotes they are small potatoes compared to the wild hogs, bears and mountain lions. the neighbor to my south lost 6 calves to mountain lions and wild hogs last spring. i don't think i could keep anything but a chicken in the house without my LGD.

 

[Onyx]

@goatgurl ha ha ha yeah I am considering my best choices in dogs right now. I don't want a traditional LGD breed because I just won't have enough land for one and I don't want a dog that will continually be wanting to bust out and go exploring ten miles away. I am trying to decide on a breed that's tough enough to confront a coyote but doesn't need 100 acres of land. I am currently looking at Catahoula leopard dogs, standard schnauzers, and Bouvier de Flanders ( have owned schnauzers and bouviers but not the catahoulas).

I am a bit more concerned about the coyote issue than I was before. Some of the coyotes in NB are apparently coywolves, because as coyotes migrated from the east they passed through areas where they bred with wolves and brought that DNA with them. They can be up to 70 pounds and are much more dangerous than the little slender, knee-high, 25 pound coyotes that I am more familiar with.

 

[Southern by choice]

A wolf will kill a Bouvier and a Giant Schnauzer easily.
The leopard dog 50/50 shot.

LGD's needing massive land and constantly roaming is a myth and it is in how they are raised and trained.

People who say this all the time and their dogs roam and dig and climb and escape did not train their dogs properly. PERIOD!
These dogs SHOULD bond with their humans, bond with their property and bond with their livestock. A happy dog with purpose does not wander, escape, climb etc.

 

[babsbag]

I really wouldn't give up on a traditional LGD. I have 2 on less than 2 acres and they are fine. I do have a hot wire on the top of the fence and my dogs don't challenge the fence at all. Many of my friends have LGDs on 5 acres or less, wouldn't live without them.

 

[samssimonsays]

Our only issue with our Pyrenees was he wandered to the neighbors house because he saw them through the trees and they gave him TREATS! UGH! We fought tooth and nail to break him of visiting the neighbors after that and never could... THEN he taught our collie to visit them too. I swear they think that they need to protect their land as well as ours... BUT with a fence we could have contained him. The digging in a pyr is natural instinct from what I have found. They will dig anywhere, not usually under a fence. We finally broke our boy of it at about 11 months old. But we had to keep him on a leash to do it. Our boy was also a house dog kenneled during the day while we were not home. He did fine and I know many who have their pyrs as non working dogs in town who do amazing. They really are amazing dogs. (IF you are concerned with a pure Pyr you can usually find Pyr crosses, that cross can tame down the wanderlust in them) we now have a 1/2 pyr, 1/4 maremma, 1/4 saint bernard pup who does not wander AT ALL. Even when the collie decides to visit the neighbors. But collies also make good LGD's according to the breeder we got ours from. Hers guard the chickens, goats, horses and family. They guide with gentle heart and protect with a fierce heart. Our girl has, and will continue to, protect us with her life and she has just turned a year old. Collies are also known not to wander.

 

[Onyx]

@Southern by choice There are no wolves in NB, these are coywolves (which IMO would be more dangerous in some ways to a human... on average, not as large, though). And tbh I would not be worried about wolves. If I had a large area of land where a wolf could come and take a goat without getting too close to people, maybe. But I think the chances of a wolf coming to an acre of fenced land with human habitation inside is pretty slim even if there were any around. Wolf crosses and stray dogs would be much more likely. I actually grew up living very close to wolves and only got a glimpse of them a couple of times. One was a pretty funny story that maybe I'll tell some time xD

I actually brought up the LGD issue in another thread and I believe you actually agreed that the area I have is too small (thinking pyrs here, as that is the breed that is semi-commonly available... at least here in the west. East seems to be a different story x_x). I have only one acre, and that acre won't be all open space, it will be divided up into paddocks. I could train the dog but that doesn't mean it would be a happy dog. I mean all dogs are going to have some amount of desire to take off and explore but I would rather avoid a breed that seems to have wanderlust as one of its main breed traits (which seems to be the case from what I've been reading, I have no personal experience with them).

Then again it's not like the dog would be confined to the property at all times, either.

@Samantha drawz A cross would be a possible choice. But as with all crosses you have the possibility of getting all the behavioral aspects of the non LGD breed, which won't necessarily do you any good xD

If I go with the Catahoula (and can actually get them, once I move east x_x) I would get two as they are usually worked together.

Of course leopard dogs may not be the most practical choice, as they are short-coated and winters in NB are long and cold. I can't see leaving a leopard dog outside all night in the winter...

Ideally I'd love to have a Tibetan mastiff of Caucasian dog I've wanted one for over 20 years. They are a true LGD but I don't see as much about them tending to wander as the pyrs. The only problem there is that they are extremely rare in Canada. I could perhaps look to the States. I cannot imagine much of anything taking on a Tibetan mastiff xD I also like that they are a more "primitive" breed and being relatively few/new here the CKC hopefully has not had time to ruin the breed yet *cough*.

I haven't really taken ANY breed completely off the table though. It might be a case of finding the right Pyr or other LGD. Every dog has a different temperament. I find that a lot of breeders these days don't have any idea about the temperaments of their pups, though. I bred and trained dogs many years ago, and I always watched my pups very closely from the start and conducted puppy testing so that I would have the best possible idea of their individual temperaments and tendencies. Then I would ask people interested in buying a pup, what they were looking for in a pup, and only show them the pups that I thought would be the best fit for them. This avoided having people fall in love with a pup that I knew was unlikely to be a good match for their situation based on looks alone.

These days when I ask about temperament in puppies, though, usually the answer I get is "oh they are all nice". It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine as I always saw knowing my pups as part of my responsibility as a breeder and a big part of the price of the pup - the time I invested in bringing them up. Now it seems that people feel their pups have intrinsic value simply because they are this or that breed or color :/

 

[samssimonsays]

I completely agree with you @Onyx Thankfully I am the same as you are, even with my rabbits. If a rabbits temperament is not a good fit for someone then I wont show it to them. And I also agree on the mixes not getting the LGD traits we have 3/4 LGD in our boy and out of 12 pups 11 got the LGD traits... our boy got ALL of the bernard traits He is finally finding his bark and may have hope yet but he was raised LGD style with livestock and although we wanted a pet, we would have liked MAYBE a little backbone in him as well . Eventually we will get another LGD and most likely Pyr but I am leaning more towards Collie as I have seen the true working collies in action and they can definitely handle the weather here in Northern Minnesota outside all year round. Our pups now will be out with the goats during the day but not so much at night due to they are spoiled and the Collie sleeps in our bed, Saint Pyrenees on the floor next to it... SPOILED.
We have a wolf issue near us (they have a dwindling food supply in deer and are no longer afraid of the people. they are being hit on the road in town middle of the day) as several people only 5-10 miles away from us have had their dogs killed by wolves. Another person only 1 mile the other direction from us had their dog killed as well... Goats will be locked up here at night safe and sound in a shelter and the dogs with them during the day in their pen. Hopefully that will help keep the wolves at bay. We also have 2 cougars within 5 miles either direction of us. I have to go out to my barn with the gun as it is but we make due. I hope you find the right pup for your purpose and know a working dog is a happy dog no matter the space he has.

 

[Southern by choice]

Ideally I'd love to have a Tibetan mastiff of Caucasian dog I've wanted one for over 20 years. They are a true LGD ....

The Tibetan Mastiff is NOT a true LGD they are a guardian breed used to patrol the villages at night from marauders. They were not utilized as a LIVESTOCK Guardian... although they guarded all from intruders.
As far as the Caucasian I just shake my head... in some parts of the world yes they are but these dogs have not really been used for LG in a long time...

Occasionally I see dogs being shown in the US as LGd's but you have to know the truth behind many of these pics.

I worked with the TM 25 years ago and there is a great deal of mis info . If you google search the pics they show these vicious bear like dogs. There have been many people taking dogs like the TM and The Co's etc and wanting them Vicious and training them for fighting. Happening with the Kangal too.

I too have an appreciation for the TM. Stubborn beyond any other breed I know of, majestic, loyal.

A Livestock guardian breed is generally not human aggressive. Although they certainly can be.

The way LGD's are raised up here in the states and the ridiculous suggestions that you see on many LGD forums are not the way LGD's were raised throughout history.

I do agree taking 1 acre and dividing it and expecting the dog to have enough t do may not work... BUT if you will raising the dog to be an all around LGD/companion and part of your overall life then yes it is doable.