Starting from scratch with goats

[Onyx]

@Samantha drawz I hear you on the wolf issue. Any animal who loses their natural habitat and are being squeezed from all sides are going to change their behavior and/or die off... I wish we could just learn to leave some wild land for the animals that were, after all, here first. Luckily I will be living in the literal middle of nowhere... there *should* be plenty of prey animals for wild predators, but I fear the area has had some logging activity since the time the google earth images were taken so, I guess I will have to see the state of things when I get there.

Unfortunately it's also a fact that wolves get blamed a lot for "crimes" perpetrated by wild dog packs and wolf-dog crosses. I was reading a study a short time ago where they did DNA testing on "wolves" shot by ranchers who claimed they were preying on their stock, etc. None of the animals were actually wolves, but a mix of coyotes, dogs, and various crosses between wolves, dogs and coyotes.

I am hoping to one day be able to snag the 8 acre parcel adjoining mine, no one is using it, there used to be a mobile home there apparently but it has since been removed. If I do get it I hope to be able to leave some of it alone as a tiny wildlife refuge.

@Southern by choice I am not really looking for a dog to do a fully traditional LGD role though.... the dogs won't be out traveling with large flocks or anything. I want a dog that will, as you mentioned with the TMs, protect my "villiage" - my homestead - including my small dogs/cats/property/the people in general. The dog will be fully integrated with my lifestyle, not simply turned out with a flock (though I know that's not what you are supposed to do with LGDs in any case).

It seems that my chosen dog breeds always end up being the stubborn ones I love my Frenchton (ok, not officially a breed... I think of it more as a "type"), but even basic tasks like house training are not for the faint of heart where Frenchtons are concerned >_>

Unfortunately you are very right that people seem to be determined to ruin and destroy dog breeds these days. Unethical show breeders and idiots breeding dogs to be vicious on purpose enrage me. Of the two I believe that show breeders have done the most damage to the most breeds over time. I am not at all against purebred animals or showing, in fact I used to breed and show rabbits, but I think the general mentality surrounding dog breeding for show purposes is incredibly damaging. That is not to say there are not ethical show breeders, of course there are, but the unethical show breeders have managed to destroy breed after breed despite that.

I will fully admit I am not as knowledgeable as I'd like to be about guardian dogs in general. I have read and studied as much as I can, but as you say, it's very difficult to pick out the good info from the bad. I usually find that in the end I need to have some hands-on experience before I will really know what is what.

I will have to keep my eyes open and see what comes up!

 

[goatgurl]

Onyx, have you researched other breeds other than the pyr's or pyr crosses? i have a Maremma who is quite content to stay up and close to my house. they are 'flock dogs'. bred to stay close to their flock. she also guards the house, chickens, rabbits, etc. if and when the goats browse the 60 acres she is with them and when they are up in the pen up by the house she is there too. she gets along fine with the house dogs and the old cat. DS#1 has a karacachen sp? and he has been raised on less than 1 1/2 acres and very happy to just be with his girls.. i agree with southern by choice that you would have to choose your pup carefully but it can definitely be done. as i said before we have some large predators around here and i think for the most part Katies big bark deters them as much as anything. wild hogs and mountain lions respect no one but that don't ignore that bark. mostly you just need to do what feels right for you.

 

[Onyx]

@goatgurl unfortunately there is not a lot of variety here so unless I look at importing or shipping, my choices are few. There is a litter of tibetan mastiff x maremma semi-close to here, amazingly, but my brother is gone and won't be back for three weeks or so still, so I can't get to them to check them out. He's my driver.

 

[Onyx]

Put more thought into this.

The only dogs that I can think of that I'd want to have other than the traditional LGD breeds are short-haired and that is just not going to work in the climate I'm moving to. I am going to go with a LGD breed and if it needs more exercise than what it would normally have on the farm, we are already accustomed to taking hikes with my Frenchton anyways. The livestock can be securely penned up if we are away and take the dogs with us.

The logistics are going to be a bit tricky but I have a few options including having a friend in Alberta pick up a pup for me that we can then pick up ourselves on the way through. There are a lot more working LGDs in Alberta. My only concern is how much of a disruption it would be to have a pup away from livestock for several weeks between pickup and arrival at our new place. I may have to risk missing a good pup if it will mean too long a separation period. Maybe @Southern by choice can advise? I'd also like to pick up a good book or two on training if anyone has recommendations. It doesn't compare with hands-on knowledge, but it will give me a start, anyways.

 

[samssimonsays]

I wouldn't believe it would cause too much of an issue as you do want them to bond with their humans. my pups will have been away from livestock (aside from my husband and myself and rabbits that it) for a year for one and 6 months for the other. The older of the two is amazing with them still.

 

[Onyx]

Is that going to be the case for baby pups who have not actually learned their job yet though? I believe there's a critical bonding period when they are little, at least that's what I've read...

 

[samssimonsays]

If they are started off with the breeder they usually already have that start of a bond, from people around me, in Minnesota, breeders recommended We keep pup either inside with us or penned in the barn separate from the livestock until they are a little older when you're not supervising for their own safety. Most reputable breeders will not sell a working pup or a giant breed pup until 12 weeks around my area. Some are starting to move towards that age with most breeds because they do learn critical things from mom in that Time frame. I'm not a breeder, nor expert but I have friends who raise pyrs strictly and have owned 2 lgd breeds now. It wasn't until after We brought our first home that We found out about the red flags the people gave off. They sold them just like any other puppy. But I Guess that's not supposed to be the case. Like I said, only from what I have been told since. I pick my breeders much more carefully now.

 

[Southern by choice]

Honestly I am not a fan of any of the LGD books on the market nor am I a fan of the LGD forums.

The overall philosophy in many of these books as well as on the forums is not conducive to the raising of a good LGD.
Sadly most do not understand how the ancient dogs were actually reared. In the states we have this ridiculous philosophy that there should be a hands off approach.

I am currently raising 10 Anatolian Pyr pups and 2 pups just flew in from CA. NONE of my dogs leave til 12 weeks and most stay for extra training til 16-20 weeks.

I am hands on with every dog. I am a trainer and most people breeding these dogs and selling them are not nor do they have what it takes to support a person getting them.

Sometimes a breeder will keep a dog longer for training but in reality all they are doing is leaving them with mom and dad longer. THIS IS A BIG MISTAKE! We all hear about imprinting and how parent stock "trains" them up. That is a little misleading.
They are two different subjects and other issues arise from just "leaving them in with mom and dad".

Biggest issue with LGD's failing and having problems is purely owner/handler related. People mess up their dogs.

Example- a lady I talked with not long ago thought maybe her LGD might be chasing goat kids. Never saw the dog chase but said there was wet on a kid's neck.
This is our conversation:
ME:Ok so this could be drool from drinking water, the dog could be mouthing etc... I don't know... since you haven't seen this you need to be watching, I can't see your dog so I don't know.
PERSON: Wellllll, I guess I might be able to do that on Wednesday.
ME: uh, today is Sunday.... why would you wait til Wednesday?
PERSON: Welll, I am kinda busy today and it is going to rain for the next 2 days so I guess it will have to be Wednesday.
ME: Well ok then, hopefully the dog isn't mouthing and chasing or you may have a dead kid by Wednesday.
Do you understand that correction if needed needs to happen whether it is raining or not?
PERSON: Silence.
The person was offended. Nice lady too and sweet as can be but just is simply not thinking.

Dogs should also be matched to their specific environment.
Proper human bonding is important, proper livestock and/or territory is important.
Above all RESPECT for the dog.
Honestly so many people EXPECT the dog to fail and the dog does because they do things to really confuse the dog.
Most people never follow through. I get a lot of calls and very rarely do people actually follow through.

In all honesty if you don't have time to work with the dog or you do not have an environment proper for the dog don't get one.
I don't mean that harsh either. I see so many that think 15 minutes on a weekend is going to be enough and it is not.

All of our dogs successfully go through a kidding and can be alone with babies BEFORE 1 year of age. They do not chase, nip, chew ears off, escape their fencing, dig , or chase goats.
We have all our dogs do house visits, they are all house trained, acclimated to our house dogs (all but my one female pyr- she hates the GSD) loyal loving excellent guardians.
From the time they are walking they are being loved on encouraged and nurtured. Everyday I am with my pups through out the day, it may be as short a timeframe of 1 minute to refill buckets, or out in the field cleaning up while they are all around.
No matter how long I look at each pup and I tell them how GREAT they are. What an incredible boy he is. Trust, friendship is a biggy here.

I believe my LGD's to be my partners. We are partnering together to run a farm. I do things my dogs can't and they do the things I can't.

As you can tell I am very passionate about these dogs. Each pup has a part of my heart.

 

[Onyx]

@Southern by choice I fully fully agree with you.

I think the whole idea of having your dog not bond with you because then it won't be able to do its job is bizarre. It's like when I was breeding ferrets and people told me I would never be able to successfully breed them if I handled the parents. Say what??? Completely and totally untrue.

I work from home and anticipate spending most of my day working outside with the farm and animals and working on my indoor job in the evenings.

I realize that the dogs need training and need me to be around to guide them.

Like I said, dog breeding sure seems to have changed since I was doing it.

When I was breeding, it was something you put a lot of time and commitment into it, that's why people would pay me money to adopt my dogs, because they were getting a pup that had had hours and hours of work put into socialization and early training and evaluation, not just $$$$ because the dog is x breed and dogs of x breed are worth x dollars.

Some people that I've seen selling "livestock guardian dogs" when you investigate further their dogs don't even live with livestock...

Others, the adult dogs live with livestock but the puppies have just been raised in a box in the barn and never seen a sheep or goat and are being sold at 8 weeks old.

I am also getting SO much conflicting info on barking. A dog that barks to alert to an intruder or potential intruder is fine. But I am seeing a lot of "informative" pages saying that LGD breeds basically bark non-stop at everything from blowing leaves to chipmunks. A dog like that would drive me out of my mind and I can't believe my goats are going to be happy living with a dog that barks its head off all day and night either.

I teach my dogs what is appropriate to bark at and what is not... but I'm getting conflicting info as to whether it is possible to train an average LGD breed what constitutes approprite barking and what does not.

 

[Onyx]

Well, I have a new pup.

I found a breeder the next province over with working stock maremma pups. He has been breeding the for 20+ years. They are older pups, not babies, they were born in the sheep pen and also already well used to cats being around which is a big plus for me. I explained my situation and he chose a pup for me that he thinks will best suit my situation. He is I believe, one of those who believes that there shouldn't be more interaction than necessary with LGDs but as soon as I said "small acreage" he said that naturally a dog living on a small acreage would be expected to bond closely with his people and household pets so I was glad that he understood what I wanted right away. He is going to hold the pup till we come through and is going to make sure she is well socialized with people.