Unrealistic dog wish list

[MsDeb]

I want a guardian for our goats.
I also want a guardian for me. (It's still dark out now when I check the goats before leaving for work.)
I want a dog that already knows what to do because we don't have experience training an LGD.
I want a dog that accepts us and our young grandkids as people that are ok to be with the goats.
Let's really make this crazy: I want a dog that lives with the goats but also able to protect the rest of the yard. (Maybe I really want an enclosure a dog can get in and out of but goats can't. Remember I said unrealistic...and crazy.)
Oh yeah, and I want it now. (And free would be good.... )

I sent an email query (not quite as crazy as this one) to a goat rancher nearby who also sells LGD's. His reply sounded fairly reasonable. That an adult dog already trained would not necessarily be friendly with our grandkids and that we probably should consider a pup....or a llama.
My problem with that is that we don't know how or have the time (we both work full time) to spend the time properly training a puppy. I'm worried my adult ND's would just butt a puppy around. And a llama really doesn't make ME feel safe.
Any suggestions?
Would we be better off starting with a young (NOT a brand new puppy) yard dog that would spend time with goats and grandkids? We don't really want another pet. That's what the goats are for. But we don't want a dog that considers our grandkids a threat when they visit and want to play with the goats either. And I guess if the goats are treated like pets then a dog living with the goats would be considered a pet also.
Can someone just send Lassie to get me out of this well I'm digging myself in to?

 

[mysunwolf]

I'm in a similar boat! Though our goats and sheep are certainly not pets, we often have friends and neighbors come by with their children to see the animals. I already have two medium sized house dogs, eight farm cats, and the whole rest of the livestock to care for. While I probably could find some time for a puppy, I have no idea how to train one, not really the money to buy one, and certainly not the money to feed one. Not to mention, I don't think my fences would hold any dog (my goats and sheep are easy keepers), and it would probably fight with my neighbors' dogs (also LGDs) through the fence, possibly digging under the fences to kill each other. I feel moderately secure in my yard as we are pretty remote, but a big dog barking in the front yard would definitely make sure I felt more secure.

For now, I lock myself and my sheep + goats up just after the sun sets, but it certainly makes it hard or impossible to go anywhere.

 

[OneFineAcre]

We adopted border collie/GP mix a couple years ago, that was already goat trained, and super friendly.
I was informed that a border collie/GP was not a good cross but ours is great.
There are always people who for whatever reason quitting with livestock who have trained dogs that need to be re-homed. You just have to be careful.

 

[happy acres]

I'd love to have a LGD that would guard my rabbits and Chickens. And he/she would go with me on walks to protect me from strangers trying to kidnap me. And was free. And was perfectly trained. And that my DH would like.

 

[Southern by choice]

Yes you do have a big wish list. LOL
We are currently training up 3 pups. They will be homed as started/trained dogs. They are 21 weeks tomorrow.
You are right, a trained dog is an advantage. But there is a cost to those dogs.
For every month I keep them, it is feed, deworming (we de-worm for a minimum of 20 weeks) Heartworm preventative, Care, actual training, lead work, manners, socialization. We evaluate and test for temperament as well as strengths and weaknesses.
The pups are then matched with their best environment.
Because our pups are raised with children and get that love and attention we try to match them to similar farm environments.
Example- these pups are 21 wks raised with 11 people doted on by children. Now take these dogs and place them on a farmstead with little human activity, no children, no real interaction and these dogs will be pretty bored and unhappy which leads to issues. Evaluating the dog is imperative.
At 20 wks pups ranged 62-72 lbs. that is alot of puppy and is alot for a child. Teaching manners is important. At 6 months pups will be 90-100 lbs STILL A PUPPY. But alot of dog!
Early training is key. Much harder to correct a 100 lb pup.

At the same time new owners do not always do the right things.

Recently worked with a lady that so loves her LGD but failed to follow basic instructions. We are firm believers in acclimating dogs to the whole home/family/farm environment (geared toward the small family farm) but there are still strict parameters. Advice of "routine program" was given to the owner of the dog, needless to say the routine was broken. It was broken by wanting the dog to be with her all over the property and she loved being with the dog. PROBLEM! The dog over time was not wanting to stay in the fields. She had bypassed the routine and was now making her LGD a family dog. Not keeping her in the field but allowing the dog to lay up under the tree at the front of the property or where ever she wanted. The dog kept camping out by the house. When undesirable behaviors started (like not wanting to go with the goats, barking incessantly, fighting her on lead, chasing goats) she was very upset. She got the dog at 5 months fully routined no chasing perfectly content as LGD. She was now a human GD not a LIVESTOCK Guardian. Worked with the Lady and repeatedly told her to stick with the routine. She didn't.

I warned her along the way... Also offered to bring the dog in to correct some behavior issues. She didn't want to part with the dog for 2 weeks.
I ended up doing a visit. After I saw what was going on it was clear. NOT THE DOG'S FAULT!

Finally I simply told the lady-" I am a trainer- I have given you all the ways to correct this and you have not followed through for more than a day at a time. It is not the dogs fault it is failing it is yours. Simply put you need to decide do you want a LGD or do you want a pet? "
She broke down crying and realized she had failed the dog. Once again a routine was given and she was told to follow the routine and she would see big results. Within 1 week there was fantastic improvement! By week 3 her dog was an LGD again. Still the dog is young only 7 months old and will still need that routine as she grows.

The biggest issue is failure to make sure the dog stays in with their livestock. All our adults and pups are with their livestock. Playtime, lead work etc is scheduled, routine, and CONSISTENT!
AND NOT IN THE FIELDS!

Trying to make a LGD a farmdog and a LGD from a young age, especially a pup, is confusing to the dog and usually ends up a bust. Two of our 4 pups really do not like coming out of their field for any reason. They are glued to their territory. two are easy and laid back... one (my keeper- a male pup) is so much like his Uncle D and owns everything yet is undemanding and will go to any field anytime without issue. He will also gladly run to the house and jump up on the couch. Head to the kitchen for a treat, but after 20-30 minutes HE wants to go back to his field.
He likes his individual loving and attention but once that is done goes back to "work".

Poultry- As we train up these dogs they are full time with poultry. Free ranged. We had 250 birds we are finally down to 100, still they are with the poultry all the time. Yes, they do chase poultry, mouth it, stalk it. I expect loss. I will lose birds along the way as they are trained. My "keeper" boy never touches poultry. LOL All that work, loss, direction cost the trainer, not just by loss of birds but all the revenue from those birds. A $25 laying hen is expensive! It takes 4-6 months to raise a bird to the point of lay. 1 year to use those eggs as hatching eggs. So, feed, housing, bedding, labor, loss of income from one bird at 2- 2 1/2 dozen eggs per month @ $4 a dozen, then a mature 1 year old hen produces hatching eggs which is more income as chicks are $6 a pieces and price goes up with age. 1 hen loss for a poultry producer like we are is worth hundreds of dollars.
Baby goats- yes we have pups in with them because we are training them. They learn early. But it requires us full time on our farm to train.

All of these things add up when selling a trained dog. We also know how often people will throw away a LGD because it chases poultry and they do not want to go through the loss. Infuriates me. Got a call last week from a lady wanting one of my pups because she was getting rid of her 4 month old GP pup- why? Because it was chasing chickens and killed one.

After a lengthly advice conversation she is keeping the dog and will work with him. She thought it was just the dog, never knowing she would have to work with any LGD pup to be with poultry. Yes, she will lose some but long term once the dog is trained it benefits her greatly as all her animals will now be protected from predators.

Long story yes the point- Spending money on a trained dog is not making the breeder/trainer rich by any means. Also not all dogs sold as "trained" have ever had a day worked with them.

I think dogs should be reasonably priced. However if someone wants to spend nothing on a dog I do question how important their livestock really is to them and how well would this person care for a LGD? Will they make sure the dog gets Rabies vac. will they do routine health check? de-worm? what about when there is an injury? will they pay the vet bill? I know we have had several knee and shoulder injuries, dogs in house recuperating, on meds etc. Will the new owner do these things?

We kept these pups as originally we were to move onto 100 acre or so and would be in mountain lion territory so we wanted more dogs/ bigger teams. We also added in a Toli pup. Our move is not happening yet so our dogs will be sold trained. Personally I like it when people can take a pup and work with it starting at no earlier than 12 weeks. But many are working full time jobs and not farming full time. They will be somewhat limited in some things yet it has it's advantages too. ROUTINE!

Just food for thought.

A LGD is a big commitment and they are worth their weight in gold. They are a joy to own, be around, and watch work. They bring comfort knowing all your animals are protected and you are too!

 

[Baymule]

I lurked here for a long time, reading all about everybody's LGD's. I knew I wasn't ready for one, especially living in town. But I got my unrealistic dog wish. A co-worker gave us her 10 month old GP for FREE! The realistic part was that she killed chickens. It took 2 years of patience to turn her into a chicken guard instead of a killer. She never was a killer for blood, she just played with them to death.

Now I have my very REAL dog and she is awesome.

 

[Southern by choice]

I remember your story and have felt Paris was truly meant to be your dog!
These dogs may not always be "easy", but so rewarding through the process. That is for sure!
I don't think these dogs really are that hard. I think it just takes simple routine and being firm loving and consistent.

 

[happy acres]

The OP did say unrealistic. I was just putting my own wish list out there. I know LGD take a lot of training, which at the moment I don't have time to do. Plus, working full time and farming on the side, doesn't leave a lot of time for socialization of a puppy. But I can always dream!

 

[HoneyDreameMomma]

Not sure if this is an option where you live, but GP, Anatolian, and other LGD rescues are something you could look into. We got one of our LGDs from a GP Rescue. I think we were lucky, but Miller is gem! He was 4 years old when we adopted him and was very experienced with guarding goats. He didn't have an issue switching to a new goat herd, and he loves the whole family (we have three teens).

Although he's fierce with predators, he is gentle with babies of all types (human, goat, poultry), and my 2-year old niece has been able to run freely in the goat field with him since she was able to walk. He is actually very protective of her - makes sure the goats don't run her down, stepped between her and a cat that tried to scratch her, etc. He barks and growls at strange adults that approach the goats unintroduced (if we bring them over, he's fine), but he seems to know instinctively to be gentle with small children. He was also great with our other LGD when he was a pup, and has done an excellent job training him.

So, although it might be a tall order, it's not an impossible one...just may take awhile.

 

[MsDeb]

I think we were lucky, but Miller is gem!

Maybe you could just send me Miller?