Waiting for Results ~ UPDATE: BACK AND NOT GOOD. HELP!

[PJisaMom]

So... yeah.

My 3 Alpines are all roughly 4 months old. Got them from a backyard herder that had two goats (all they were allowed per their ordinance); Two wethers and a doe (which we hadn't planned on getting because the *whole* point of getting goats was to just have some pets and call it good... but while we were there, the lady talked to my husband about the milk, had him taste it, sold him some soap.... you know how it goes... we got the little doe, too ~ a half sister to the boys). When we bought them, the people told us the mothers had been tested last fall ~ but for what, I wasn't educated enough at the time to remember what they said, and they haven't answered my emails lately.

The people had had goats for a few years, but this was their first breeding. They kept my doe's sister and sold the boys' mother (a huge milker), leaving them with two goats once again.

My goats are Smith, Wesson, and Browning.

Of course, the doe is smaller and my youngest daughter just LOVES her.

However... I noticed a lump on "Brownie" the other day, front her shoulder at the base of her neck. I started getting that freaking out feeling... It's not big... large pea, oblong, a bit deeper, feels "encapsulated". I immediately conclude she must have CL. I have a tendency to jump to worst-case-scenario... a fair bit of the time anyway.

It's not growing, it's not hairless, she's fine... the boys have nothing weird growing on them. I don't see a point of entry for a splinter or anything else... they were roughhousing on an overturned half barrel the other day; been sort of hoping she just hit it weird and left a lump.

Called the vet out and he drew samples yesterday. (Which was actually very cool to watch from where I was sitting... with my face about 6 inches from the needle!) The goaties didn't even cry, shocking the vet. Of course, they were all trying to be in contact with me the entire time he was here... they love me!

The vet said the lymph node seemed suspect, but no way to know unless we tested. And by the way, it's like $30 for EACH test (I said let's run the gamut) to send it to UC Davis... um, sit down a minute doc... let me show you WADDL. Gave him what he needed to get the samples out yesterday (WADDL's website says they run CL on Wed/Thurs, so hoping it to get it there on time... though felt it was fairly unlikely to do so.)

At any rate, I do have a point to this story... I don't like to ask questions, but have you ever tried to search for just "CL" here? It won't find anything because it's not a long enough search string (I think it has to have three letters). So... just trying to figure out what I'm going to do when it comes back positive.

Yep, I said when. I love being wrong.

Obviously, if she has CL, we can't breed her, we can't milk her, and we can't get more goats until such time as she is gone.

If she has it and by proxy her brothers have it, I feel a responsibility to get rid of them (read into that what you will), thus *destroying* my children (they had to get rid of a dog 10 months ago because of dad's allergies, and that's been *ROUGH*) and generally just getting ticked off that I "allowed" this to happen.

Now, on the other hand... I can always get more goats. I love THESE goats, but I have also read where transmission is possible to humans. My youngest daughter has severe medical issues stemming from but not limited to Cystic Fibrosis. I would NEVER endanger her health by keeping goats around that could affect her with something else she CERTAINLY doesn't need. I don't know how likely or possible this transmission is, but she always does the unexpected.

Remember somewhere in there mid-novel where I promised a point to the story? Well... here's my questions:

Is almost four months a bit young for a CL outbreak?

IF she has it, but has never burst an abscess here, will my barn still be considered contaminated?

IF she has it, but her brothers do not, would you keep them (they've all been exposed to the same exact things ~ milk, mothers, etc)?

I guess there's probably more questions in there, so address what you please, if you would.

I really need this to be negative. It's been a helluva year.

????

 

[ksalvagno]

I would wait for the results since you have pulled blood to test them.

You have to do what is best for your family. If they come back positive for CL, then I would move them on and not take the chance. Quite frankly, I have found that anything goes with livestock and even if it isn't usual for a 4 month old to have CL, nothing says that they can't.

I'm not sure about the contamination thing. I would probably clean the barn thoroughly and probably even clorox the whole thing.

I sure hope the tests come back negative for you. Good luck.

 

[helmstead]

On necropsy, they can tell if an animal has internal CL...in which case YES your barn could be contaminated...

All of this is speculation, so lets see how the tests come back.

 

[PJisaMom]

All three are positive for CAE; She is positive for CL.

Way to go, me! Yay! Way to royally mess up buying your first goats and absolutely devastating your children in the process!

*Pause* for my own personal pity party.

Waiting for the vet to call me to "talk" to me.

Why is she positive for CL and her brothers aren't? (They all drank the same raw milk... did I read that it can be transmitted, even to humans, through milk? Yes, I know for CAE, but CL?)

Can the boys develop the CL later?

Can the boys transmit the CAE to other goats, if I should decide to get some "replacement" goats?

I realize she needs to go, but how much danger am I exposing any new goats to if I keep the boys (until they die their horrible death in a short few years or less)?

Yes, I'm angry. At myself... and the damn goats. And the fact that my newbie status has left my family in a quandary due to another one of my brilliant ideas...

Seriously...

If you can answer any of the serious questions above (if you can find them in the snarkiness) with any helpful or "I might consider doing this...." advice, I'd surely appreciate it.

 

[ksalvagno]

Roll Farm had a CL problem. She would be the best to answer the CL questions. CAE is manageable. I don't have those diseases here so I can't answer your questions well. But I'm sorry about the results.

 

[cmjust0]

Ok...first of all, this really sucks. I *know* how much effort you've put toward caring for and learning about these little critters. If you hadn't cared enough to do your homework, you'd likely have been like 98% of the rest of the goat-owning world and gone "Hmmm...that one's got a little bump. Oh well."

Funny how caring a whole lot so often leads to incalculable anguish, huh? One of life's great ironies... :/

So...you've mentioned before that your particular situation dictates that you can have no 'zoonotically-diseased' critters on the place. That much, anyone could understand. Unfortunately, that means Brownie's gotta go -- but you already knew that.



The boys?...maybe not.

Since they tested negative, and since Brownie's not yet ruptured an abscess, I would think you probably still have time to quarantine and/or get Brownie outta there and hit the two boys with Case-Bac. According to everything I've read -- as well as what some of our members have personally and bravely related to us -- it's pretty daggone highly effective in preventing CL in goats. And it's like $6. So, yeah, you might be able to salvage your boys for about $6.

As for the CAE?...well, they're wethers. And what I mean by that is, who cares? By all accounts, CAE is not transmissable to humans, and instances of it being transmitted between *adult* goats are apparently pretty rare. And it's not like they're going to be breeding and/or nursing anybody, soooo... Basically, unless they're all hobbly, lame, and/or have big hot swollen knees, I wouldn't worry so much about the CAE. Kind of a non-issue in pet wethers, IMHO.

So the gameplan I'd have in mind would be to quarantine Brownie and order at least one 20ml vial of Case-Bac from Jeffers today. Some (me) would recommend 2 vials since you're technically supposed to pitch vials after they've been opened, whereas some say they're basically good till they're all gone and have expired. Your choice. Some (me) would bolster their argument by saying it's not worth risking an ineffective dose to save $6...but it's totally your call.

Either way, if you order now, it'll be in be on your doorstep by Friday. Vax the boys right then. Watch out for Brownie's abscess to go bald as you try to find her a suitable home, if possible. Could be that she ends up at the sale barn, or that she's euthanized, but if the boys get vaxed and you can watch that lump to be SURE it doesn't pop on its own, I would think you've got some time to at least try to work out a suitable solution for her.

Or, euthanize her.

And I'm not saying that to be flippant, either -- I say that because it's perfectly logical, and a very acceptable resolution to the problem given your unique circumstances. Nobody would judge you. I'm arguably the most judgemental ahole on this board and I'm saying that if you need to euth the doeling, then by all means, euth the doeling.

Sucks, yes, but...well, you know none of us could even begin to know **the half** of how much more things could potentially suck if you didn't euth the doe and came to regret it.

Ugh..

I really, really hate this for ya.

 

[()relics]

I would say, because your herd is in an early foundation(?) stage, meaning you only have a few goats that you intend to build from, I would think it best to remove all the goats. The boys are surely positive having been exposed at the same level as the doeling, but they just haven't shown anything as of yet, that you have seen anyway. I would not take the chance by keeping them and then adding new goats to your herd, only to find later that they are now showing positive signs and potentially infecting your "new" herd...It Just Wouldn't Be Worth The Risk. Quite possibly your barn and pasture are already contaminated...Clean House...JMO...Sorry to hear you have been taken advantage of by yet another "responsible" breeder.

 

[cmjust0]

I would say, because your herd is in an early foundation(?) stage, meaning you only have a few goats that you intend to build from, I would think it best to remove all the goats.

Best for the future goat herd, maybe...but perhaps not so much so for her family.

Remember -- the doeling was something of an afterthought. They had intended on pet wethers to begin with.

The boys are surely positive having been exposed at the same level as the doeling, but they just haven't shown anything as of yet, that you have seen anyway.

"Surely positive," though their tests came back negative? Doesn't make sense.. Also, there's no way to know the boys were exposed at the same level as the doeling.. She's a half-sister, remember? And the OP mentions the "mamas" being tested last year. To me, the logical conclusion there is that the breeder ran two does to the same buck and the offspring were half-bro/sis...which means the sis was on a different set of teats from the boys.

Not to mention, we don't really know if the doeling's contagious yet.. It's possible that she's got internal abcesses on the lungs and that she's hacking up little CL bacteria...but you'd think they'd have tested positive right along with her if that were the case.

Personally, I think there's time to work with them.

That's me, though..

I would not take the chance by keeping them and then adding new goats to your herd, only to find later that they are now showing positive signs and potentially infecting your "new" herd...It Just Wouldn't Be Worth The Risk. Quite possibly your barn and pasture are already contaminated...Clean House...JMO...Sorry to hear you have been taken advantage of by yet another "responsible" breeder.

You're looking at this from the perspective of a serious goat breeder.. Makes sense -- that's what you are.

But try looking at it from the perspective of a pet owner.. Would you necessarily recommend someone "cleaning house" and getting rid of all their dogs because one somehow managed to get...I dunno...parvo, or something like that?

I wouldn't.

Jes' sayin...might be an easier pill to swallow for her human kids to go missing *one* goat instead of the whole herd.

 

[()relics]

All three are positive for CAE; She is positive for CL.
Why is she positive for CL and her brothers aren't? (They all drank the same raw milk... did I read that it can be transmitted, even to humans, through milk? Yes, I know for CAE, but CL?)

seems to me they are either carriers or just haven't had time to show yet...unless the OP doesn't have the facts straight...and I would also say Case-Bac is throwing Good Money After Bad...No Matter what the situation seems...But that is just me...the stuff May work but I think the jury is still out.

 

[cmjust0]

seems to me they are either carriers or just haven't had time to show yet...

A "carrier," as I understand it, is when one *tests* positive yet remains asymptomatic. The two boys tested negative and are asymptomatic. That kinda rules out the possibility of being carriers, at least for the time being.

It's *possible* that they had low+ titres that just happened to have come in under the threshold for a definitive positive diagnosis...but I doubt it. Even if that's the case, though, I just don't see much harm in at least giving them a chance at remaining negative unless/until it becomes clear that they're also infected -- which may never happen.

unless the OP doesn't have the facts straight...

???

Not sure what you mean by that.. As I see it, to have said that they were exposed "at the same level" as the doeling despite the fact that they had different mamas indicates that maybe you got a little something...unstraight...about the situation.

The doe and wethers had different mamas.

and I would also say Case-Bac is throwing Good Money After Bad...No Matter what the situation seems...But that is just me...the stuff May work but I think the jury is still out.

Some members here say it works pretty well, and I've read at least two different studies which have concluded it to be at least 80% effective in goats -- and that's against a *direct challange* with CL. They vax and booster the goat, let it build up immunity, then willfully and proactively infect it. Still able to achieve about 80% success.. My thinking is that, when translated to the real world where the challenge would be much more haphazard, the prevention rate would almost certainly be higher.

Oh, and the rate of success was nearly 100% for preventing *internal* abscesses. Personally, I found that really interesting.

Something else you have to consider is that the US is actually behind in terms of having an on-label vaccine for CL in goats. They have 4-way clostridial + CL goat vaccines in Australia and New Zealand, the CL component of which are basically the same thing as the Caseous D/T or Case-Bac we can get here.. Not like it's uncharted territory or anything..


Granted, I'm not saying that the OP absolutely can, should, or has any responsibility to even *try* to save the boys.. All I'm saying is that I could understand wanting to try for the sake of her kids...her human kids, that is. It may very well end up that she determines it's not worth the risk and gets rid of ALL the goats, and I'd *totally* understand that.

I'm just saying that if she doesn't want to condemn the whole lot of'em on a just-in-case basis after two of the three have actually *tested negative*, I'd understand that.. And it's not as if she's shooting to become a bigtime goat breeder who intends on building a big herd of high-$$$ show stock one day..

This did, afterall, start out as a simple pet wether situation. I'm envisioning a worst-case-scenario where all they really have to do is pare it back to what they actually set out to do in the beginning.

That's all.