ksalvagno
Alpaca Master
So what did the vet say?
Waiting for Results ~ UPDATE: BACK AND NOT GOOD. HELP!
- Thread starter PJisaMom
- Start date
()relics
Overrun with beasties
1 more time...the SAME raw milk...that would suggest the milk came from the same place? In all reality, anyone even the lab or your vet, will tell you that you shouldn't base your decision on just 1 test result...A kid under 6 months is a prime candidate for a false negative, or on the bright side a false positive. Lest we not forget the CAE factor on top of the CL potential...Sure you can shoot them up and Hope for the best or...They can run away from home some night....jmoPJisaMom said:
poorboys
Loving the herd life
YourLinkGoesHere about cl in herd, If you do have one with it, what does it do to humans? how do they contract it?? I had a buck with a shot bump and thought it was cl, he was 4months old, It turned out not to be cl, but we had already given him a formalin 10% shot in the bump. stupid yes, friends advice? should'nt have done it,!!! He is now 8 months old, weights over 100 lbs, and tall. very vibrant and beautiful buck, shot bump still there, we petrifyed it!!!!!! I will always regret that decision, because I have an outstanding buck that will always have a bump behind his top- shoulder. My friend raised bore goats and said that's what the do to theirs, I'm sorry I trusted her with this, but what is done is done, we learn from making risks and mistakes. also changing my cdt shot, away from corvexin 8, it always leaves a bump and from now on I'm also going to keep a chart of where each animal receives a shot.I keep good records, but I was'nt doing that. just thinking, Patty
- Thread starter
- #15
PJisaMom
Loving the herd life
Vet said that these diagnoses are not compatible with a breeding operation (duh). But... if I were to just have pets, they'd make wonderful animals.ksalvagno said:
Yep. He's right. Except for that part about CL being contagious to humans... though if I am understanding it correctly, it's fairly difficult to "catch" CL from a goat unless you're drinking its raw milk.
As for the SAME RAW MILK question... both moms were being milked. I do not know if the boys were fed only milk from their mom, or if she mixed milk (boys vs. girls were on a staggered schedule). When I brought them home, I got ONE gallon of milk (likely from the boys' mom... she was a huge milker) to wean them from...
Vet also gave me the rundown on the CAE testing stats of 99.6% accuracy... that of 1000 tests, 4 could be wrong. Uh, yeah, doc. Got three wrong ones here.... NOT!
I am doing my best to hold my head on straight and keep my eye on the end goal... which obviously seems to change depending on the circumstances. Do I want pets, or do I want to have babies and milk?
Heck... I don't want ANY OF THIS!!!!!
Is CL transmissible by birth? And that's how she got it and the boys didn't... for now?
()relics
Overrun with beasties
CL is transferred to the kid through the milk from an infected doe. If a kid is bottle raised it can be raised CL negative...Any milk from the doe has the potential to infect the kid...If the kids were fed from a common source they all have been exposed but the wethers have not yet shown any symptoms...JMO.
Roll farms
Spot Master
Horsepucky. 
I've lived with and dealt w/ CL for 8 years now. I've probably, by reason of having to deal with it...researched CL more than I have any other goat-related ailment.
I think this is one of the best articles I found in my research...
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/cl4.shtml
It's written by a vet, and it's not full of fear-mongering and witch doctor cures. (Poorboys, don't feel bad about the formulin, a lot of folks have tried that....it was the 'common treatment' a while back.)
I guess, theoretically, if someone had CL pus / bacteria on their hand and touched the udder, or the doe laid in the bacteria and then the kids nursed, or had an extremely rare udder abscess....it *could* be transmitted that way...but....it's not the common transmission route.
Humans can catch it the same way...by contact, via a wound, w/ the pus.
I wear gloves when I lance an abscess, absolutely soak everything w/ iodine, and keep the does seperate until they've healed over.
I milk my CL positive does....and their milk has been drank by my family for years, sometimes unpastuerized....we aren't CL positive yet.
CL is transmitted usually by a cut in the skin touching the infection / pus, or goats ingesting expectorated pus (via lung abscesses) when eating....
I keep my 3 old CL does away from everyone else. Our bucks are clean and the positive does never have 'dates' with them when they have a lump, much less an open CL abscess (or a cough that *might* indicate a lung abscess...which in my experience has been really rare.)
All our kids are caught at birth / raised in a seperate barn.
Vaccinating after exposure may or may not work...if the goat 'caught' it, the vaccine will not cure / prevent lumps...the vaccine won't have enough time to create an immune response.
Exposure isn't a guarantee they'll 'catch' CL, they have to have the bacteria enter their bodies in some way....again, usually through a cut.
It's possible the doe's dam had a leaky lump when the kid was born and the bacteria got in through her navel or a disbudding spot or maybe she cut her leg or.....who knows where she may have picked it up.
Usually the incubation time from exposure is 3-6 mos...so I'd say she was exposed pretty soon after birth.
Frankly, If all 3 kids were positive for CL, I'd be surprised...
Brief history of our CL saga: All of my does (16 or so at the time) were exposed to the original carrier doe we 'caught' it from...
We caught it from a Boer doe who came w/ an Ohio BOAH vet inspection certificate stating she was from a CL clean herd. (HAHAHAHHA)
and only 5 'caught' it. I had one lumpy goat...and then w/in a few mos, there were 6 total.
We paid a lot of money for a vaccine made from 'our' strain that did NOTHING to slow /stop the spread. Soon (within a year, despite vaccinating) we had 10 positive goats.
I made the choice not to cull them b/c some of the originals were goats I'd had a while / started with, and loved dearly....we now use the Case-Bac vaccine and it works a lot better than our 'strain specific' fancy vaccine ever did.
NO new cases in 2010...one in 2009.
We're down to 3 CL positive does...all 3 are special to us....so will be here until the bitter end...but if I had it to do over, I would have culled the positive does and been done w/ it.
That is the 'practical farmer' in me of today talking, not the sentimental sap I was 8 years ago.
All of you have seen pics of my goats...often...can you pick out the 3 positive does? I might, and I'm very serious, see 2-3 lumps per year. It's not like they're standing around covered w/ abscesses 365 days a year.
(And I've learned to stop bothering vaccinating the known positives...that's the surest way to get a lump to pop up, IMHO)
The other CL+ does have either died off (unrelated causes) or been sold to breeders who DON'T CARE ABOUT CL BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAVE IT. I advertised "4 CL positive does" on Craigslist and they sold in no time...it's a LOT more common (especially in Boers) than most will admit to.
As far as CAE.....We test for it....I have 3 CAE positive does. One is 8, one is 7, and one is 3...NONE are symptomatic.
All produce kids who test CAE negative (again, remember, we catch / bottle raise the kids on pastuerized milk / heat treated colostrum ONLY.)
Testing positive for CAE isn't necessarily a death sentence. It's sort of like how a healthy person can live a long time w/ HIV....only when it progresses to AIDS and challenges their immune system is it a problem. Not all goats will have symptoms...some will show symptoms earlier...some never.
CAE is the darndest thing I've ever encountered....there's no predicting it or explaining how formerly negative does 'spontaneously' become positive...it happens a lot.
One of our CAE+ does is out of a negative doe....we also have 2 of her sisters and a daughter who all tested negative.
Another CAE+ doe (unrelated to the above group) is out of a dam who's tested negative twice.
I won't offer advice on what you should do, because each person has to do what works for them, both financially and emotionally. But I will tell you some things to consider.....
IF the doeling hasn't had an abscess bust open on your place, and isn't coughing pus all over, there is a fair chance the boys won't get a lump if she's removed before her lump busts / is lanced and they get exposed.
BUT....There's also a chance that they already 'caught it' at their former home and just haven't gotten a lump yet, that long incubation can give a false sense of security.
AND....CAE + tests doesn't necessarily condemn them to a long, early, painful death....but....we have seen 1 goat w/ arthritic symptoms and she went from "ok" to walking on her knees in a few weeks...it wasn't pretty and she did have to be put down.
The diseases are different, transmitted differently, and each goat's reaction is different...what happened here to us / ours may not be how it goes at your farm....
I really, truly feel for you....I've been where you are.
Feel free to ask me any specific questions you may have, but keep in mind that there are no absolutes w/ either disease.
I've lived with and dealt w/ CL for 8 years now. I've probably, by reason of having to deal with it...researched CL more than I have any other goat-related ailment.
I think this is one of the best articles I found in my research...
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/cl4.shtml
It's written by a vet, and it's not full of fear-mongering and witch doctor cures. (Poorboys, don't feel bad about the formulin, a lot of folks have tried that....it was the 'common treatment' a while back.)
I guess, theoretically, if someone had CL pus / bacteria on their hand and touched the udder, or the doe laid in the bacteria and then the kids nursed, or had an extremely rare udder abscess....it *could* be transmitted that way...but....it's not the common transmission route.
Humans can catch it the same way...by contact, via a wound, w/ the pus.
I wear gloves when I lance an abscess, absolutely soak everything w/ iodine, and keep the does seperate until they've healed over.
I milk my CL positive does....and their milk has been drank by my family for years, sometimes unpastuerized....we aren't CL positive yet.
CL is transmitted usually by a cut in the skin touching the infection / pus, or goats ingesting expectorated pus (via lung abscesses) when eating....
I keep my 3 old CL does away from everyone else. Our bucks are clean and the positive does never have 'dates' with them when they have a lump, much less an open CL abscess (or a cough that *might* indicate a lung abscess...which in my experience has been really rare.)
All our kids are caught at birth / raised in a seperate barn.
Vaccinating after exposure may or may not work...if the goat 'caught' it, the vaccine will not cure / prevent lumps...the vaccine won't have enough time to create an immune response.
Exposure isn't a guarantee they'll 'catch' CL, they have to have the bacteria enter their bodies in some way....again, usually through a cut.
It's possible the doe's dam had a leaky lump when the kid was born and the bacteria got in through her navel or a disbudding spot or maybe she cut her leg or.....who knows where she may have picked it up.
Usually the incubation time from exposure is 3-6 mos...so I'd say she was exposed pretty soon after birth.
Frankly, If all 3 kids were positive for CL, I'd be surprised...
Brief history of our CL saga: All of my does (16 or so at the time) were exposed to the original carrier doe we 'caught' it from...
We caught it from a Boer doe who came w/ an Ohio BOAH vet inspection certificate stating she was from a CL clean herd. (HAHAHAHHA)
and only 5 'caught' it. I had one lumpy goat...and then w/in a few mos, there were 6 total.
We paid a lot of money for a vaccine made from 'our' strain that did NOTHING to slow /stop the spread. Soon (within a year, despite vaccinating) we had 10 positive goats.
I made the choice not to cull them b/c some of the originals were goats I'd had a while / started with, and loved dearly....we now use the Case-Bac vaccine and it works a lot better than our 'strain specific' fancy vaccine ever did.
NO new cases in 2010...one in 2009.
We're down to 3 CL positive does...all 3 are special to us....so will be here until the bitter end...but if I had it to do over, I would have culled the positive does and been done w/ it.
That is the 'practical farmer' in me of today talking, not the sentimental sap I was 8 years ago.
All of you have seen pics of my goats...often...can you pick out the 3 positive does? I might, and I'm very serious, see 2-3 lumps per year. It's not like they're standing around covered w/ abscesses 365 days a year.
(And I've learned to stop bothering vaccinating the known positives...that's the surest way to get a lump to pop up, IMHO)
The other CL+ does have either died off (unrelated causes) or been sold to breeders who DON'T CARE ABOUT CL BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAVE IT. I advertised "4 CL positive does" on Craigslist and they sold in no time...it's a LOT more common (especially in Boers) than most will admit to.
As far as CAE.....We test for it....I have 3 CAE positive does. One is 8, one is 7, and one is 3...NONE are symptomatic.
All produce kids who test CAE negative (again, remember, we catch / bottle raise the kids on pastuerized milk / heat treated colostrum ONLY.)
Testing positive for CAE isn't necessarily a death sentence. It's sort of like how a healthy person can live a long time w/ HIV....only when it progresses to AIDS and challenges their immune system is it a problem. Not all goats will have symptoms...some will show symptoms earlier...some never.
CAE is the darndest thing I've ever encountered....there's no predicting it or explaining how formerly negative does 'spontaneously' become positive...it happens a lot.
One of our CAE+ does is out of a negative doe....we also have 2 of her sisters and a daughter who all tested negative.
Another CAE+ doe (unrelated to the above group) is out of a dam who's tested negative twice.
I won't offer advice on what you should do, because each person has to do what works for them, both financially and emotionally. But I will tell you some things to consider.....
IF the doeling hasn't had an abscess bust open on your place, and isn't coughing pus all over, there is a fair chance the boys won't get a lump if she's removed before her lump busts / is lanced and they get exposed.
BUT....There's also a chance that they already 'caught it' at their former home and just haven't gotten a lump yet, that long incubation can give a false sense of security.
AND....CAE + tests doesn't necessarily condemn them to a long, early, painful death....but....we have seen 1 goat w/ arthritic symptoms and she went from "ok" to walking on her knees in a few weeks...it wasn't pretty and she did have to be put down.
The diseases are different, transmitted differently, and each goat's reaction is different...what happened here to us / ours may not be how it goes at your farm....
I really, truly feel for you....I've been where you are.
Feel free to ask me any specific questions you may have, but keep in mind that there are no absolutes w/ either disease.
jodief100
True BYH Addict
I think you need to be approach this depending on your goals.
If they are to be pets, I wouldnt worry about either the CL or CAE. Separate any with a lump into an area where they NEVER go unless they have a lump. Lance the lump when it is ready to pop, cover with iodine and return the separated goat as soon as she heals. CAE is a degenerative disease, when they are to the point when they are no longer enjoying life because of pain, then put them down. Until then enjoy them! It could be years.
If you just want to freshen her once a year for milk and sell the babies into the slaughter chain then keep her. Be honest with your buyers about the CL status. In this case you may consider buying a young buck to service her and then sell him into the slaughter chain once she is bred so you dont risk exposing someone elses buck.
If you want to start a commercial operation, then you will have to make the tough decision about what to do with your doe. I would follow Roll Farms lead.
The boys with CAE I wouldnt do anything at all. Get some Cas-Bac and vaccinate. If you want more pets, vaccinate them as well.
All this is just me- you need to decide for yourself what is best for you and your family.
Roll Farms may know for certain but I *Think* CL can give humans a skin infection. I do not believe it manifests as the degenerative disease it is in goats. Double check me on that, I may be remembering wrong.
If they are to be pets, I wouldnt worry about either the CL or CAE. Separate any with a lump into an area where they NEVER go unless they have a lump. Lance the lump when it is ready to pop, cover with iodine and return the separated goat as soon as she heals. CAE is a degenerative disease, when they are to the point when they are no longer enjoying life because of pain, then put them down. Until then enjoy them! It could be years.
If you just want to freshen her once a year for milk and sell the babies into the slaughter chain then keep her. Be honest with your buyers about the CL status. In this case you may consider buying a young buck to service her and then sell him into the slaughter chain once she is bred so you dont risk exposing someone elses buck.
If you want to start a commercial operation, then you will have to make the tough decision about what to do with your doe. I would follow Roll Farms lead.
The boys with CAE I wouldnt do anything at all. Get some Cas-Bac and vaccinate. If you want more pets, vaccinate them as well.
All this is just me- you need to decide for yourself what is best for you and your family.
Roll Farms may know for certain but I *Think* CL can give humans a skin infection. I do not believe it manifests as the degenerative disease it is in goats. Double check me on that, I may be remembering wrong.
- Thread starter
- #19
PJisaMom
Loving the herd life
So... they could be incubating, but not test positive?Roll farms said:
But once they've had the Case-Bac, they will always test positive for CL? Just no lumps?Roll farms said:
I was trying to keep my big girl practical viewpoint on all this, but pretty much lost it when I had to relay the whole story to dh. He had no idea I was concerned/had testing done, etc. I have been preparing myself for this for two weeks... so I am 'okay'... just need to make some quick and precise decisions. I HAVE to let her go... risking the human kid's fragile health cannot be worth it. So... would you say that if I did give them the Case-Bac, it would sort of be a test to see if a lump pops up?Roll farms said:
Not fun to live with such uncertainty!Roll farms said:As far as CAE.....We test for it....I have 3 CAE positive does. One is 8, one is 7, and one is 3...NONE are symptomatic.
CAE is the darndest thing I've ever encountered....there's no predicting it or explaining how formerly negative does 'spontaneously' become positive...it happens a lot.
One of our CAE+ does is out of a negative doe....we also have 2 of her sisters and a daughter who all tested negative.
Another CAE+ doe (unrelated to the above group) is out of a dam who's tested negative twice.
Just so I'm clear... an incubating CL won't test positive?Roll farms said:
I have no problem putting them down if they NEED it. I just have a really hard time justifying it in my head at this point as I watch her play with her brothers and love life. She's so VITAL. Dh wants to take care of this himself ($); I am against it because 1) don't want it "spread" around here through a destructive euth 2) because she's not in DIRE straights, I'd hate for it to be that way.Roll farms said:
Thanks, Roll. I am really stuck.Roll farms said:
I have another question... the ONLY thing different about her vs the boys... SHE got a cd/t vaccine from the VET vs. the one I gave the boys. Do you guys know of any vax's that have the Case-Bac in it, thus making her test positive? I think she got Covexin?
Roll farms
Spot Master
If they haven't been exposed long enough to have the antibodies showing up to test positive, as in the very early stages, then yes, I'd suppose they CAN test negative but still 'have it'....just no lumps yet.
Likely? No....Possible....yes.
I've honestly never CL tested because I know some have it, and the rest are vaccinated so would (depending on how recently they've been vaccinated) test positive anyway.
Covexin hasn't got CL in it as far as I know, just Caseous D-T and Case-Bac. So it shouldn't have caused a false positive. Also, her having a lump AND testing positive....really would indicate, IMHO, that she's positive f'real.
Case bac can cause lumps in negative goats, at the injection site.
SO...if you give it, keep track of where you gave it...if they get a lump there w/in a few weeks...that's not definite proof they have it, it COULD just be a shot reaction.
I guess the answer is yes and no...if they got a lump after Case Bac, at any spot other than the injection site, then I'd say they've got it....but a lump at the injection site could just be normal immune response. At that point, testing is moot....
I'd be MORE tempted to cull her asap, and NOT vaccinate them, and give it 6 mos.
If they get no lumps anywhere, then you can be pretty sure they're ok. Retest in 3 mos even, if you'd like...by then they definitely should have incubated long enough to show positive if they are.
If they've got it, vaccinating won't cure it anyway.
If they don't, you may get lumps that'll worry you...for nothing.
Likely? No....Possible....yes.
I've honestly never CL tested because I know some have it, and the rest are vaccinated so would (depending on how recently they've been vaccinated) test positive anyway.
Covexin hasn't got CL in it as far as I know, just Caseous D-T and Case-Bac. So it shouldn't have caused a false positive. Also, her having a lump AND testing positive....really would indicate, IMHO, that she's positive f'real.
Case bac can cause lumps in negative goats, at the injection site.
SO...if you give it, keep track of where you gave it...if they get a lump there w/in a few weeks...that's not definite proof they have it, it COULD just be a shot reaction.
I guess the answer is yes and no...if they got a lump after Case Bac, at any spot other than the injection site, then I'd say they've got it....but a lump at the injection site could just be normal immune response. At that point, testing is moot....
I'd be MORE tempted to cull her asap, and NOT vaccinate them, and give it 6 mos.
If they get no lumps anywhere, then you can be pretty sure they're ok. Retest in 3 mos even, if you'd like...by then they definitely should have incubated long enough to show positive if they are.
If they've got it, vaccinating won't cure it anyway.
If they don't, you may get lumps that'll worry you...for nothing.
