What went wrong?(update Pg 2)

[LadyIsabelle2011]

Alright guys,

I'm one of those people that loves horses to death. I love working with them, brushing, feeding, giving scritches, and I generally jump at any chance to spend time with them whether its on the ground or in the saddle. The sad part is I just don't get the opportunity to ride very often, I've never had an "official" lesson and every riding experience(probably about 10 in my life) has been a learning experience. The other day was no different.
I was on a horse for the first time in about 5 years. She was a good mare who had a good temperament and was ridden on a weekly basis. I figured I was about to have a really good ride considering every horse I had ridden before her hadn't gotten nearly that much time under the saddle. But from the minute I got up on her back everything felt wrong.
I got her moving just fine but it took me a moment to get my balance correct and by the time I managed it was like I had lost all respect with her. She got hard headed and wanted only to be up in the barn where he owner was sitting. At first I figured she was just being a horse and I needed to take control but the longer I was up there the more I felt like I was the problem not the horse. The body language she was giving me was "confused" and if I've ever seen a confused horse it was her.
I tried shifting my balance, I tried different rein styles, I even started putting my entire body into the turns but that whole ride was a battle. Much of the time we were just standing in one spot because I didn't want to give into her and she didn't want to give into me. By the end of the ride I had gotten her to go around the pasture and even managed to run a few barrels but she made me fight for every inch of ground we made.
When I got out of the saddle(completely exhausted) the owner jumped up and she was a completely different horse, so now I know for a fact that it was my fault...now I just have to figure out just what it was I was doing wrong(cause honestly, I still don't know what it was) I've never had to fight with a horse like that before, even the old stump jumpers were much easier and much lighter on the rein...I'm genuinely confused here guys...do you think you could maybe give me some advice?

 

[animalfarm]

You weren't doing anything "wrong". You were just a newbie on a very experienced horse who has probably had its way with many inexperienced riders. It was a control thing and the horse was winning or at least determined too.

Solution is to be patient and keep at it until you gain confidence and can make the horse beleive you are the boss.

The fact that you didn't give up was the first step in solving the problem. The second step was to recognise that you were the problem. Sure the horse was being difficult, but you are the rider, and by default the problem. The third step will be to stay calm about the whole experience, not try so hard to do things "right" but to just make the horse go and in the direction you choose and for the distance you want it too. After that, you just keep adding to your riding technique over time. Just get the go forward and direction thing as solid as possible first. Don't aim for anything fancy. Never quit until the horse has done what you clearly asked, and never ask him to repeat the right thing 10x or he will give up and get frustrated as well.

 

[chubbydog811]

Best advice would be take lessons if you plan on making this mount a consistent mount.
Most horses, unless they are half dead lesson horses or extremely well trained, most likely will give a beginner rider issues...Especially a smart one. Sounds like she knew you didn't really have a clue how to fix what she was doing, and took complete advantage of the situation.

It's like I tell my students : if the horse knows they can get away with it, they are going to keep doing it. The only way to correct it is to be firm and confident - this includes having an instructor there telling you how to correct the bad behavior if you don't know the correct way.
You won't be able to learn from us telling you online- you need someone there watching you to correct you and the horse together. Unfortunately, against what a lot of people say, there is a lot more to riding horses than hop on, point, and go.

If you can't/don't have time for lessons, my best advice would be to find a horse that is more suited for your riding abilities when you get the chance to ride (meaning the half dead school/trail horse that doesn't give anyone any kind of fight)

Sorry if I this comes across as harsh, but these are words of experience, from a trainer, and from a student. My first pony was a little monster. She made me fight for everything we did. Of course, she made me the rider I am now, so I can't complain too much - but I also had an instructor teaching me how to out smart her. I've been riding for 14 years, and can confidently say I am a very good rider compared to most, but I never would have gotten to be where I am at now if it weren't for the instruction I received throughout my years with horses.

 

[LadyIsabelle2011]

'Tis not harsh at all For me lessons would be a dream come true and if I could get them I would but sadly they just aren't realistic at the moment. I guess I realized the question I was asking was really something I would have to figure out myself but when your unsure of yourself its kinda nice to have experienced riders there to give you a little advice.
I've had to become a self taught rider you see. Usually when I get a chance to ride its a "If you can saddle him up yourself you can ride 'em" kinda thing and they are usually horses that haven't been ridden very regularly. I did find one horse who suited me perfectly, we were good buds, I taught him to come to people instead of running from them(something his owners noticed right off the bat) and I even helped him work through his fear of hats(horses are so weird ) but his owners were the busy type and even with all the time I spent with him I rarely got to ride him. Though when I did it was clear this horse and we were made for each other. Now he's really too old for me to be riding so you can say I've lost my riding partner :/ I was kinda hoping this horse would be that same as my old buddy and when I was met with the level of resistance she gave it was a little bit of a shock to my system. She was giving so much resistance to everything I tried to get her to do my first instinct was that I was doing something wrong and I guess in a way I was doing something wrong. The thing is the whole time I was up there i didn't feel an ounce of anxiousness so I knew I didn't have any fear to be translating to her, to start off I was pretty confident...afterwords I was just tired and a little confused...though I will admit, even with the fight she gave it was really nice to be in the saddle again. I was exhausted sure, but exhausted with a smile on my face

Say...what is the running rate for lessons? I know you guys can't really do much for me without seeing me ride, so being on here is kinda pointless...more and more I want to get some lessons(have been wanting them all my life) but in my mind they always seemed like something only available to those with extensive pocket money...you know?

 

[animalfarm]

Well, I won't earn any brownie points by saying this, but lessons are not necessary. You can teach yourself no problem. The one thing you cannot do without lessons is compete against others who have had them, in formal competitions of one type or another. Neither you nor your horse will do well in that case simply because you haven't learned the rules others are following and you will be judged accordingly. Most lessons are nothing more then learning a set of rules. These rules have nothing to do with getting a horse to do anything unless that horse is heavily trained into that particular set of rules.

Most problem horses are horses that cannot function within the set of rules set out for them in formal riding courses. Forcing round pegs into square holes. So, if you are happy just doing your thing and do not intend to compete, please do carry on and not worry about lessons. Just find a horse that won't be ruined by your informal riding style. i.e.. Not someone's prized dressage horse.

It will most probably be clear by now that I have never taken a lesson. I rehab problem horses and can ride pretty much anything including a rodeo bronc in my younger years. Usually rehabbing vicious horses means turning them out to forget they were ever trained and then starting over by not doing most of what is considered proper riding including using the use of tack such as snaffle bits, mouth contact and over tight girths and no going endlessly around in circles. These reformed horses generally end up doing quite well with people such as yourself with a bit of empathy and no burning need to perform.

 

[chubbydog811]

Well, I won't earn any brownie points by saying this, but lessons are not necessary. You can teach yourself no problem. The one thing you cannot do without lessons is compete against others who have had them, in formal competitions of one type or another. Neither you nor your horse will do well in that case simply because you haven't learned the rules others are following and you will be judged accordingly. Most lessons are nothing more then learning a set of rules. These rules have nothing to do with getting a horse to do anything unless that horse is heavily trained into that particular set of rules.

Most problem horses are horses that cannot function within the set of rules set out for them in formal riding courses. Forcing round pegs into square holes. So, if you are happy just doing your thing and do not intend to compete, please do carry on and not worry about lessons. Just find a horse that won't be ruined by your informal riding style. i.e.. Not someone's prized dressage horse.

It will most probably be clear by now that I have never taken a lesson. I rehab problem horses and can ride pretty much anything including a rodeo bronc in my younger years. Usually rehabbing vicious horses means turning them out to forget they were ever trained and then starting over by not doing most of what is considered proper riding including using the use of tack such as snaffle bits, mouth contact and over tight girths and no going endlessly around in circles. These reformed horses generally end up doing quite well with people such as yourself with a bit of empathy and no burning need to perform.

Have to say I disagree. I have worked with students who were self taught - they were a train wreck waiting to happen. I'm not like most trainers, mind you. I train each student for what they are aiming at accomplishing. People who are just looking to play/trail ride get worked with differently than the show students. Not all trainers are like that unfortunately.

Knowing that - it is not about the "set of rules" that you speak of. Honestly, there really are no set in stone "set of rules"
It is about correctness and getting the most out of you and your mount. Most of the self taught riders I know haul on their horses mouth and kick with their heals, because they have no concept of having a balanced horse, that goes off of your body instead of your hands. That is just ONE of the problems I run into with those riders.
Something you are also forgetting that comes with proper instruction - safety habits. Under saddle and on the ground. Horses are dangerous animals, and if you go in confidently without knowing a fair amount of how horses work, you are likely to get hurt.

I have also worked with many problem horses. I have put many back out to pasture and "forgotten" about them...I actually have a Camelot gelding like this - he came in a mess (that's not even the word for it). VERY scared, flighty, couldn't even put his halter on without some sort of moment. I've taken over a year with him, and just yesterday, I was finally able to ride him (he's 4 and never been worked with). Point being, your sense of "Most problem horses are horses that cannot function within the set of rules set out for them in formal riding courses." is slightly flawed. Yes, this is true that not all horses work the same. I've gone total opposite ends of the spectrum training - from formal training, to my own style of training. BUT, by saying "formal training" isn't a good way to put it.

Anyway, back to the point - not all trainers are out to "preform". That's not what it's about. It's about learning how to ride the correct way to get the best experience each ride for you and your horse. I'm really not trying to start a debate, I'm just trying to get across that not all trainers are the way you see them.

 

[greybeard]

Ever hear "If you get thrown, just get right back on"? The same applies here, even tho you didn't get "thrown'. If you said who the normal rider was for this horse, I missed it, but some horses are just 'one person' horses-just like a lot of animals are. It's up to you, if this is the case, to change that. The horse knew even before you set foot in the stirrup that you weren't it's usual rider, and probably wanted to try your patience a bit. Add to that, the little nuances in the way you ride and command probably differs from the way the other rider(s) do, and the horse may have been a bit confused. Get back in that saddle, let the horse become accustomed to the way you ride and it will get used to your style & remember you--horses are generally very intelligent and will adjust to each rider that they are familar with. Don't forget to spend a good deal of time on the ground with this mount as well. What you do and say out of the saddle is just as important as what happens when you are in it.

And tho I don't currently have horses or mules, I always have in the past, and actually prefer a mount that still has a bit of it's "own head about it"--gives me a little resistance and still retains it's own spirit. For me, in my part of the world, a horse that relies 100% on rider input is not only less enjoyable, but can be outright dangerous. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to have or regain control at all times, but occassionally, after the horse has done what YOU want, let the horse show you what IT can do on it's own. When you get out of the saddle, you'll say "Now THAT'S a HORSE!!"
I just don't want a broken spirit horse. An equine still with good instincts will keep and get you out of trouble faster than you can get the 2 of you in trouble.

My 2 cents anyway.

 

[sawfish99]

Say...what is the running rate for lessons? I know you guys can't really do much for me without seeing me ride, so being on here is kinda pointless...more and more I want to get some lessons(have been wanting them all my life) but in my mind they always seemed like something only available to those with extensive pocket money...you know?

I'm sure it somewhat depends on where you live. Here in CT, $50/hr is an average rate.

 

[animalfarm]

[
Knowing that - it is not about the "set of rules" that you speak of. Honestly, there really are no set in stone "set of rules"
It is about correctness and getting the most out of you and your mount. Most of the self taught riders I know haul on their horses mouth and kick with their heals, because they have no concept of having a balanced horse, that goes off of your body instead of your hands. That is just ONE of the problems I run into with those riders.
Something you are also forgetting that comes with proper instruction - safety habits. Under saddle and on the ground. Horses are dangerous animals, and if you go in confidently without knowing a fair amount of how horses work, you are likely to get hurt.

Actually, we don't disagree all that much. I don't beleive in "correctness to get the most out of your mount". That is probably our biggest disagreement right there and what I mean by rules. That is a rule that has many exceptions if one has the foresight to do things differently when its not working. As to the hauling on mouths ect...we are in total agreement, except for the fact that unfortunately as you know, lessons don't prevent this in the case of students who cannot get the concept. So we both hate this, but disagree that lessons solve these issues in all cases. That being said, lessons can also prevent this in many cases, if not all.

I agree with you about safety as well, however, I have visited many "barns" where the most blatant safety issues go unchecked. These are people getting ready for lessons, ect... and obviously have no clue as to what they are dealing with and never will. Again, people who have horse sense will be fine with or without lessons, but those who do not.......lessons won't save them.

I have also worked with many problem horses. I have put many back out to pasture and "forgotten" about them...I actually have a Camelot gelding like this - he came in a mess (that's not even the word for it). VERY scared, flighty, couldn't even put his halter on without some sort of moment. I've taken over a year with him, and just yesterday, I was finally able to ride him (he's 4 and never been worked with). Point being, your sense of "Most problem horses are horses that cannot function within the set of rules set out for them in formal riding courses." is slightly flawed. Yes, this is true that not all horses work the same. I've gone total opposite ends of the spectrum training - from formal training, to my own style of training. BUT, by saying "formal training" isn't a good way to put it.

Yes, my point is slightly flawed as we cannot cover everything in this discussion. One example of "formal training" is a horse and rider that never leaves the riding ring. The horse is micro managed till he practically goes insane, and the rider has no idea and could care less, that by MY definition,he/she cannot ride. That is, the rider cannot control the horse if it deviates its behaviour in any way from the paces the instructor has taught him/her, and couldn't sit a spook or buck because he/she has never had too. That is a gross violation of safety in my oppinion. The horse has also, become barn sour and the rider couldn't make that horse go 50 ft outside of the ring if their life depended on it.

Anyway, back to the point - not all trainers are out to "perform". That's not what it's about. It's about learning how to ride the correct way to get the best experience each ride for you and your horse. I'm really not trying to start a debate, I'm just trying to get across that not all trainers are the way you see them.

Absolutely. I do not see all trainers the same either. I am merely trying to tell the OP that a trainer is not a necessity if life doesn't give you that particular choice. I have been known to help the odd rider as well, but my methods are a little outside the box. I teach what I call survival riding. How to fall off your horse in a controlled fashion so you don't break anything, what to do if a horse rears ect.. How to ride the particular horse you own, and learn to like him if that is a problem.

You seem to be more open minded about discussing our differences, and I appreciate that.

 

[goodhors]

I am going to agree with Chubbydog811, that OP needs lessons from a trainer. Being self-taught
can work in a lot of things, but you REALLY need help with horse skills. I am not going to say horse
was "just being stubborn" to avoid work. I am more likely to believe that OP was speaking Chinese
directions to a horse that spoke American. Horse did NOT understand what was being asked of them,
with rider not skilled as a rider. Body cues were incorrect, maybe unbalanced, given in the wrong
locations, or they were contradictory. Horse didn't hurt the rider, so it was a GOOD horse that day!

Trainers tend to teach all students the same way to ask horse to do things. Usually this is the EASIEST
method to have horse respond correctly for your desires. Trainer keeps having students do
the same thing consistantly, corrects the student asking wrongly. Students learn how "correct response"
from horse feels, along with wrong responses, because Trainer stops the wrong things, gets them corrected.
Feel is a big deal in riding, especially while learning to do things right. Getting things right takes a LOT of riding
and being consistant with all your body parts, teaching your muscles how to be smooth, work together.
You are STILL under the Trainer's eyes, to have corrections done before you have bad habits established.

Self taught riders can read the term for some way to ask horse to do something in books, articles, talk to
folks, but STILL do not understand the methods or steps used in ASKING the horse to perform. They talk
about term, but if asked how to do it, they can't explain or have a totally wrong way of getting the desired
result from horse.

That "They talk the talk, can't walk the walk" remark is SO TRUE. May sound a bit mean, but by asking a few leading
questions, I KNOW if they have real horse experience or just book learning, to prevent them getting hurt.

Riding well is just so much EASIER if you work with a Trainer who will prevent you making mistakes. No unlearning
needed to fix bad habits.

Bad habits of heavy hands, not understanding how balance works, timing in asking horse to move off, won't prevent
you getting horse from here to there. Just can be WAY more difficult than riding needs to be. Harder on confused or
unskilled horse that over reacts to a kick, tries to jump out from under you. Then he gets jerked because you are
not moving with him,you don't understand why he "tried to run away with me" because you ALWAYS ask horse to go
with a kick.

Trainers can be good or poor, so you may need to look around to find a truly skilled teacher. The best ones ARE demanding
of you, wanting real effort to gain skills to be a competent rider. You can't see yourself, you need other eyes to watch
and point out WHY horse didn't respond to what is desired. Seldom is just ONE part that didn't work right. Sure is worth
the money to have lessons, because it will save you MUCH time and effort in gaining horse skills.

Using a Taylor Swift line, "You don't even know what you don't know", that can get you hurt. Find a good instructor and take riding
lessons.