What went wrong?(update Pg 2)

[animalfarm]

double post. sorry

 

[animalfarm]

I am going to agree with Chubbydog811, that OP needs lessons from a trainer. Being self-taught
can work in a lot of things, but you REALLY need help with horse skills. I am not going to say horse
was "just being stubborn" to avoid work. I am more likely to believe that OP was speaking Chinese
directions to a horse that spoke American. Horse did NOT understand what was being asked of them,
with rider not skilled as a rider. Body cues were incorrect, maybe unbalanced, given in the wrong
locations, or they were contradictory. Horse didn't hurt the rider, so it was a GOOD horse that day!

Taking the OP out of the equation, this is a fine example of formal training and the myth-conception that it is needed by the rider to ride a formerly trained horse. Not so. I can't put my money where my mouth is on a computer so I guess we need to let sleeping dogs sleep on this one.


Trainers tend to teach all students the same way to ask horse to do things. Usually this is the EASIEST
method to have horse respond correctly for your desires.

Yep, its the easiest method not always the best method. But again that is personal choice and a case of doing it that way because thats what all the grand poobahs say is the way.


Trainer keeps having students do
the same thing consistantly, corrects the student asking wrongly. Students learn how "correct response"
from horse feels, along with wrong responses, because Trainer stops the wrong things, gets them corrected.
Feel is a big deal in riding, especially while learning to do things right. Getting things right takes a LOT of riding
and being consistant with all your body parts, teaching your muscles how to be smooth, work together.
You are STILL under the Trainer's eyes, to have corrections done before you have bad habits established.

This is true. Feel is most important, but does not require a trainer. It requires time and some riders cannot be taught feel even by a trainer. There are some people who should not be within a mile of an animal (not just horse) because they have no feel for anything but the rules. There are plenty of stories out there about riders getting thrown, but most of them are riders falling off. Not the same thing.

Self taught riders can read the term for some way to ask horse to do something in books, articles, talk to
folks, but STILL do not understand the methods or steps used in ASKING the horse to perform.

Terms don't make a rider. Reading a book doesn't make a rider, and being trained by someone who read the book and buys into the story does not make a rider. That is what I mean by formal training. I know many trainers that cannot ride either. Sure you can repeat the instructions and you can go through the motions and make the horse a robot, but my definition of riding is much different then yours.


They talk about term, but if asked how to do it, they can't explain or have a totally wrong way of getting the desired
result from horse.

My point exactly. You don't need to explain anything. There is no "wrong" way of getting the desired result from the horse. The right result is the right result regardless of the method of asking. There are plenty of screwed up horses out there that would agree with me; they are burned out because they didn't read the bible on the right way of being asked. They weave, crib, bite, kick, are barn sour and bored out of their collective trees because the rule book also says that turn out will get them dirty and hair coats make them too ugly for the show ring. Now I digress and I appologize.


That "They talk the talk, can't walk the walk" remark is SO TRUE. May sound a bit mean, but by asking a few leading
questions, I KNOW if they have real horse experience or just book learning, to prevent them getting hurt.

Riding well is just so much EASIER if you work with a Trainer who will prevent you making mistakes. No unlearning
needed to fix bad habits.

Bad habits of heavy hands, not understanding how balance works, timing in asking horse to move off, won't prevent
you getting horse from here to there. Just can be WAY more difficult than riding needs to be. Harder on confused or
unskilled horse that over reacts to a kick, tries to jump out from under you. Then he gets jerked because you are
not moving with him,you don't understand why he "tried to run away with me" because you ALWAYS ask horse to go
with a kick.

Trainers can be good or poor, so you may need to look around to find a truly skilled teacher. The best ones ARE demanding
of you, wanting real effort to gain skills to be a competent rider. You can't see yourself, you need other eyes to watch
and point out WHY horse didn't respond to what is desired. Seldom is just ONE part that didn't work right. Sure is worth
the money to have lessons, because it will save you MUCH time and effort in gaining horse skills.

Saving time and effort is not positive to me. Time and effort to me are what makes something worth achieving. Again you are in the mindset of formal riding. There is a whole other world out there that doesn't involve or require this. Since the OP cannot afford the lessons she would like, she falls into the catagory of leisure riding and she can work that out just fine. She just won't be show ring perfect. She might however, end up understanding the mind of her horse better then most.

Greybeard who posted yesterday, probably understands what I am getting at. I too like a horse with a brain and the freedom to use it. My job is to pick the speed and direction 90% of the time, the horses job is to figure out where to put his own feet and get us there. The other 10% of the time, it is my job to sit on the horse and let it do what ever the heck it wants just a Greybeard said.

I have a horse I brought back from Egypt with me. She was a biting, kicking, rearing, bucking, run you down train wreck; a real refugee of formal riding procedures. She really had no tolerance for it. My daughter learned to ride by first learning to sit on a small mare with the most back breaking trot you could never hope to sit. She bounced off a lot, but learned that skill well too. I then moved her up to a speedy but very smooth 16H stallion and took her out to the desert to learn speed (remember she had balance down from doing a sitting trot on the bone cruncher). She then moved to "hell bitch" she learned to make that horse trust her and be very aware of how that horse got the way she was. I competed with Genie in Middle East endurance races and 6 mile speed races at the Cairo race track. She doesn't kick or bite any more, but she does spook and buck her heart out; its how I know she's feeling good. I still use her to teach newbies how to handle and respect a horse, because she isn't a pet and she is certainly no dead head. I guess I should qualify this by saying they learn grooming/ground work; not riding with her. Also, for any that are interested, this rather hardheaded, spunky, highspirited mare can only be ridden with a halter and lead rope. I had to get special permission from the Cairo race track authorities to allow this.

Using a Taylor Swift line, "You don't even know what you don't know", that can get you hurt. Find a good instructor and take riding
lessons.

 

[LadyIsabelle2011]

hehe, almost forgot I'd posted this . Hey guys, thanks for all the advice I never was able to get those lessons(sigh) BUT I did find a horse more suited to my riding ability. He's an older Quater horse, one I've actually known for most of my life. He was the first horse I ever remember riding and basically the one I learned on. I hadn't ridden with him in years because I lost touch with his original owner for awhile. He's changed hands a few times and on a whim I asked the person who now owns him if I could ride. The answer was a surprising and emphatic YES! Basically I can ride him when ever I need to now :3 He's a real awesome guy, the kind you can just put a bridal on and ride (sans saddle). I LOVE THIS HORSE TO DEATH!(always have) He isn't what most people consider when they think of their dream horse but he's just what I need right now(in fact we sorta kinda needed each other). Just an ol' bow backed sorrel but he's the most wonderful and responsive fella I've ever ridden. I don't have to fight with him to do anything(though that trot of his has left me somewhat crippled at the moment ). So far he's shown himself to be really light on the reins, responsive, medium energy and he is eating up the attention XD All in all he has pretty much restored my confidence(which had been badly depleted) and now I'm riding on a regular basis(or at least working on it).
SO for now, were both happy. I can't see into the future so theres no telling where this is going to go, he might get sold, he might let his age catch up on him, I don't know, but all I can do is milk this little ray of light for as long as I've got him.

Again, thanks for all the advise guys

 

[MaggieMay]

I am going to agree with Chubbydog811, that OP needs lessons from a trainer. Being self-taught
can work in a lot of things, but you REALLY need help with horse skills. I am not going to say horse
was "just being stubborn" to avoid work. I am more likely to believe that OP was speaking Chinese
directions to a horse that spoke American. Horse did NOT understand what was being asked of them,
with rider not skilled as a rider. Body cues were incorrect, maybe unbalanced, given in the wrong
locations, or they were contradictory. Horse didn't hurt the rider, so it was a GOOD horse that day!

Trainers tend to teach all students the same way to ask horse to do things. Usually this is the EASIEST
method to have horse respond correctly for your desires. Trainer keeps having students do
the same thing consistantly, corrects the student asking wrongly. Students learn how "correct response"
from horse feels, along with wrong responses, because Trainer stops the wrong things, gets them corrected.
Feel is a big deal in riding, especially while learning to do things right. Getting things right takes a LOT of riding
and being consistant with all your body parts, teaching your muscles how to be smooth, work together.
You are STILL under the Trainer's eyes, to have corrections done before you have bad habits established.

Self taught riders can read the term for some way to ask horse to do something in books, articles, talk to
folks, but STILL do not understand the methods or steps used in ASKING the horse to perform. They talk
about term, but if asked how to do it, they can't explain or have a totally wrong way of getting the desired
result from horse.

That "They talk the talk, can't walk the walk" remark is SO TRUE. May sound a bit mean, but by asking a few leading
questions, I KNOW if they have real horse experience or just book learning, to prevent them getting hurt.

Riding well is just so much EASIER if you work with a Trainer who will prevent you making mistakes. No unlearning
needed to fix bad habits.

Bad habits of heavy hands, not understanding how balance works, timing in asking horse to move off, won't prevent
you getting horse from here to there. Just can be WAY more difficult than riding needs to be. Harder on confused or
unskilled horse that over reacts to a kick, tries to jump out from under you. Then he gets jerked because you are
not moving with him,you don't understand why he "tried to run away with me" because you ALWAYS ask horse to go
with a kick.

Trainers can be good or poor, so you may need to look around to find a truly skilled teacher. The best ones ARE demanding
of you, wanting real effort to gain skills to be a competent rider. You can't see yourself, you need other eyes to watch
and point out WHY horse didn't respond to what is desired. Seldom is just ONE part that didn't work right. Sure is worth
the money to have lessons, because it will save you MUCH time and effort in gaining horse skills.

Using a Taylor Swift line, "You don't even know what you don't know", that can get you hurt. Find a good instructor and take riding
lessons.

x10! remember, Horses Hurt! as one who as a child couldnt afford riding lessons and spent years reading and trying to learn myself, I was amazed at the speed I improved (not to mention my horse as a result) when I started lessons in my early 20s. There are a lot of options out there for lessons, etc. You can trade stall cleaning, or other barn chores, watch other people get lessons, (I still like to watch my kids in a lesson), rent dvds, read etc while you are waiting to earn experience. Good luck to you, you sound like a true horse addict.