Your thoughts on herbal wormers

[Calliopia]

It was a puppy so these were round worms..


But I'll one up ya on the google search.

About 2 days ago... Let's just see what Image search brings up for goat hermaphrodite. And let's FORGET to turn safe search on. ARGHH MY EYES!!!

 

[freemotion]

So far herbals have been working year-round on most of my goats. But not all. Less so on the all-dairy goats, the ones with the light frame.

 

[cmjust0]

It was a puppy so these were round worms..

Hmm.. Interesting. Back to the googles!

But I'll one up ya on the google search.

About 2 days ago... Let's just see what Image search brings up for goat hermaphrodite. And let's FORGET to turn safe search on. ARGHH MY EYES!!!

LMAO

 

[cmjust0]

So far herbals have been working year-round on most of my goats. But not all. Less so on the all-dairy goats, the ones with the light frame.

Based on fecals, or FAMACHA?

I also find it interesting that you say "all-dairy," versus...what...mutts? Hybrids?

My experience with hybrids has been that they're FAR SUPERIOR to purebreds w/ regard to worm resistance/resilience.

 

[freemotion]

Based on both. I have three all-dairy....an Alpine doe and buck, and an Alpine-La Mancha doeling (50/50). I have four very mixed up mutts....two pygmy crosses and two with 12.5-25% Boer and the rest a mix of dairy. The last four have not needed any Ivomec. Two of the dairy goats have needed Ivomec this year.

I check FAMACHA regularly and run fecals if I see symptoms other than FAMACHA, like clumpy poo or earlier this year, the vomiting doeling. Sometimes I run a fecal on everyone just to get more experience and see what is going on with everyone who is symptomless, compared to those who have had symptoms.

I also have a large pasture for the size of my herd and land that is very, very quick to drain after rain. I'm sure that is to my advantage, worm-wise.

 

[cmjust0]

Based on both.
...
I check FAMACHA regularly and run fecals if I see symptoms other than FAMACHA

I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I think FAMACHA can be misleading when judged in a goat with good body condition...i.e., fat goats. I've seen goats go from FAMACHA perfect to FAMACHA fatal -- and then actually, physiologically CEASE TO LIVE -- in less than a day.

Does that mean the goat died of worms? No...it means the goat became dehydrated. No fluid to eyelid means no pigment in eyelid means FAMACHA fatal score.

I'm thoroughly convinced that thin goats -- which full dairy breeds in lactaion tend to be -- are more prone to dehydration because they lack condition. Putting two and two together.....you see where I'm going with this.

So if you're relying on FAMACHA to decide whether or not to run a fecal, you may not be getting the whole picture on your fatter goats because their condition *may* keep them better hydrated, which *may* prevent FAMACHA from demonstrating in quite such a dramatic fashion...whereas the dairies may tend to vacillate a bit more.

OR...maybe your fatter goats and/or hybrids aren't so much resistant, but resilient, in that they may have been blessed (or cursed) with a really kickass hemopoetic system that can go through red blood cells like Charlie Sheen through hookers...in which case their FAMACHA would be deceivingly OK, despite the fact that they're walking egg factories.

Maybe.

The reality is that I can't prove any of that. All I know is what I've seen, personally, and what makes sense to me logically. And it's all causing me to have less and less faith in FAMACHA all the time..

Yet, on the other hand, I'm also not a fan of fecals because a goat's not always going to be shedding eggs.. Like right now, for instance... I'm sure fecals would turn up next-to-nothing in most of my herd because most of the barberpoles have gone dormant. Consequently, everybody's FAMACHA scores look pretty daggone great right now, too -- provided they've had the gumption to venture out to the stocktank instead of lounging in the barn all day, in which case the thinner dairy goats' FAMACHAS actually look questionable whereas the fat meat breeds and meat-hybrids still look fine because they're FAT..

Does that mean I'm doing a good job? No. In all likelihood, it just means the length of day has shortened to the point that the barberpoles have decided it's time NOT to molt into adults, but instead to go dormant and wait for the days to get longer so they can start laying eggs again in the Spring.

Where am I going with all this?

I dunno.

I guess I'm starting to think it's all about 85% bullsh*t, and that we *really* need to be focusing on better ways to deworm these critters than checking...and rechecking...and rechecking...and questioning our methods of checking...and blah blah blah...and waiting for worms to BECOME A PROBLEM before we actually do something about it.

:/

 

[ksalvagno]

cmjust0 - then I guess that means that you should be looking into herbs. We know that overdoing it with chemical wormers will just build resistance.

The fact is that there are no good answers and all you can do is your best. Are you going to lose some animals - yes. Are some going to appear/be healthy and live a long life - yes.

 

[Emmetts Dairy]

I use chemicals when needed. But I do not worm on a schedule at all. It is strickly an AS NEEDED...basis for me. I have not wormed in over a year..and thankfully everyone is great!! I just had them all tested to make sure I was not missing something.

I think whatever you find working to keep with it? Herbals, chemicals or both.

But I think the key is to use them "as needed" and just not assume with them. They should not be used as a preventative..thats where the resistance comes in.

Kinda like taking asprin before going to your in laws...you just may not need it this time!!!

 

[freemotion]

cmjust0 - then I guess that means that you should be looking into herbs. We know that overdoing it with chemical wormers will just build resistance.

The fact is that there are no good answers and all you can do is your best. Are you going to lose some animals - yes. Are some going to appear/be healthy and live a long life - yes.

Preach it, sister!

I just can't worry about it that much, cm....I'm insane enough as it is. If a goat keels over....well, the truth is that it is likely a weaker goat and I am better off without those genetics in my herd. The truth is also that I would weep until my cheeks are chapped, too, but hey, that is life with goats. :/

 

[cmjust0]

I think instead of looking into herbals or trying to figure out chemical dosages, what we need to do is *accept* the fact that keeping goats unnaturally on pasture, rather than the browse to which they're naturally adapted, is just a bad idea altogether.

Square peg -> round hole.