Your thoughts on herbal wormers

[Ariel301]

I would agree that we need to work towards resistance, especially with purebred animals. I grew up around livestock, and the impression I got from goats was that they were about the hardiest thing around. Since getting a few purebred goats, I've learned that's not really so...

It seems that goats do really well as a livestock animal in places like Africa and Asia where they don't have any veterinary care at all. Those animals are living on almost nothing and still healthy enough to be worth keeping. I doubt many of them have ever been dewormed. I can't imagine dumping one of my dairy does out there and her even living more than a few weeks, our pedigreed stock just isn't that tough, and we need to work back towards that.

I used to have two horses, a Barb mare that had grown up wild and a pinto warmblood gelding. The gelding was constantly thin, always needed deworming and a lot of feed. The Barb, who was pretty well lacking in "beauty" features we like in our competitive show animals, was also very healthy. She was dewormed once a year, never wore shoes or even got a foot trim, and was perfectly happy outside when it was -20 degrees. She was also extremely fat on 2 flakes of hay a day and no grain, despite being worked heavily. That's how we need our goats to be!

 

[mully]

I have used the herbal wormer from Hoeggers Supply and have been using it for the past 5 years. The herbal wormer works well for me but I also use Ivermec around June when the worm load can creep up in count and i do this because I would have to increase the herbal to the point of causing scours. I tried Mollies herbal but it is not ground fine enough as I mix the powder with molasses and make a "meat ball" and give it to the heard. The goats love the stuff and I have to herd them into small groups to be manageable. I use the herbal wormer every week ...even in the winter. I would not change my program for any new drug that comes on the market as I have not lost a goat to worms in 5 years.

 

[Beekissed]

Now that's an "AMEN!" if I ever heard one! FIVE YEARS!!!!

I don't care what lab you presently place your faith in, real life situations by real people are much more convincing in my book.

 

[ksalvagno]

Mully - how many goats do you have and how big of a pasture are they in? I'm just curious because I'm trying to find my way with 17 goats on about an acre.

 

[Our7Wonders]

I would agree that we need to work towards resistance, especially with purebred animals. I grew up around livestock, and the impression I got from goats was that they were about the hardiest thing around. Since getting a few purebred goats, I've learned that's not really so...

It seems that goats do really well as a livestock animal in places like Africa and Asia where they don't have any veterinary care at all. Those animals are living on almost nothing and still healthy enough to be worth keeping. I doubt many of them have ever been dewormed. I can't imagine dumping one of my dairy does out there and her even living more than a few weeks, our pedigreed stock just isn't that tough, and we need to work back towards that.

I used to have two horses, a Barb mare that had grown up wild and a pinto warmblood gelding. The gelding was constantly thin, always needed deworming and a lot of feed. The Barb, who was pretty well lacking in "beauty" features we like in our competitive show animals, was also very healthy. She was dewormed once a year, never wore shoes or even got a foot trim, and was perfectly happy outside when it was -20 degrees. She was also extremely fat on 2 flakes of hay a day and no grain, despite being worked heavily. That's how we need our goats to be!

I find this thread interesting. I know next to nothing about goats, especially real, hands on stuff because I've only been a goat keeper for just over a week. Your statement though, has me wondering.

Please don't anybody freak out on me, because I am new. I realize I have a lot to learn and I know the wormer issue seems to be a hot topic here at times. Having said all that, my two does that I just brought home have NEVER been wormed chemically. (They've never had vaccinations or any kind of antibiotics for that matter either). The dairy that I bought them from worms only with garlic on a lunar cycle. Now please don't yell at me. I know that is not likely how ANY of you would do things - BUT - the thing is, her does seem healthy. Again, take it for what it's worth, I admit I may not know a healthy goat from a goat on her death bed, the does at the dairy are the only goats I've EVER had contact with. I've been assisting at the dariy once or twice a week throughout the summer and fall - her does just never seem to have any issues.

I thought about having a vet run a fecal (maybe someday I'll learn that, but, yeah, call me a baby, I'm just not ready to start playing with poop yet - baby steps) but then, as it's been pointed out on here, this time of year I likely wouldn't see a high count anyway, right? Their coat seems healthy, their eyes look clear and healthy, their poop looks good (had the slightest bit of clumping on just one day, likely from the stress of transporting/transitioning) and they seem to eat and drink normally.

At the dairy the goats would get essential oils and herbs for any first aid that was needed, which, from my understanding was very seldom.

All the does on her farm have been raised holistically since she started about 20 years ago. Perhaps some resistance runs in thier blood lines? I dunno, I'm not even sure I'm qualified to venture a guess. They seem healthy, they kid easily, and apparantly are pretty hardy. My ONLY concern is that milk production seems low, but their grain rations are less than a cup of whole oats on the milk stand top dressed with a few BOSS. I figure I can work on the milk supply in the spring after they kid - I'm working towards drying them up for now.

The does are 3.5 and 2.5 years old. The older doe has freshened 3 times and the younger doe once. They are nubian pure breds, though not registered (she stopped registering several years ago since she wasn't showing anymore.) I keep questioning the lady I bought them from about things like toxemia and she keeps telling me to relax, she's never had any problems and after years of raising goats she prefers to be more hands-off than to intervine on prenatal and postnatal care.

At this point I'm afraid to make any changes. Don't fix what ain't broke, KWIM?. I'll have fecals ran in the spring - maybe shortly after they both kid?. I won't know how to use the information the vets give me, but it'll give me a starting point for research I guess.

Now, having said all this, I'm not saying this is the right way to do things. I'm not even saying this is the way I'm going to do things. It's just interesting to me that her methods of animal husbandry seem crazy in contrast to everything I've read - yet it seems to be working for her.

FWIW, she has a licensed dairy in WA state. She is subject to all sorts of regulations and inspections in order to be able to sell her raw goats milk. Her milk and facility always passes the inspections - I guess that doesn't mean she has healthy goats, just healthy milk - but I would think unhealthy goats would have a difficult time producing good quality milk.

Maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all. Please don't throw anything at me. I'm not very good at debating - I'd rather run and hide.

 

[Beekissed]

I'm sorry that you have to feel like you will get attacked for your post on this forum. It shouldn't be that way just because someone is raising their animals holistically.

Don't worry...there are many of us on here that do and we just don't care about "The Herd" and that mentality. Post away and ignore the folks who don't actually do it but have plenty of disparaging things to say about it.

I'd consult with your dairy lady about increasing grain rations to produce more milk....could be a reason she does not do this and it could have something to do with her goat's general health. Ruminates do much better with a mostly grass diet and too many grains could start to affect their digestive system and ultimately their health.

I'm sure, if she could safely do this and still keep her goat herd healthy, she would be feeding more grain....after all, more milk is more money and that is a GOOD thing, right?

Sounds like your goats come from great lines! Congrats! Keep us posted about how you get along with them?

 

[adoptedbyachicken]

I lived in an area with resistant worms for a bit, and no real winter to speak of, coastal rainforest, occasional snow and freeze but nothing that could be relied on. The owner of the land also had goats that could run with the horses or stay in their own area because, well, they were goats and fencing was not goat proof.

Anyway the key to horse management there was the five day fenbendazole double dose mid winter. That's how we manged to get it under control, knock them out while dormant and I find it interesting that I have never heard this discussed for goats. In horses you can't get the dormant worms in a single day dose, is there ever a place for that with goats?

Anyway back to her goats, which would come up to the barn if we were feeding grain (easy way to do the FBDD) and she always did them too, and i don't recall her ever loosing one, or ever worming in the summer, and those goats were always fat and healthy looking. But true they spent all the time I can recall browsing, eating the blackberries and the scrub shrubs that were everywhere. The horses had all the grass down to the dirt anyway.

But back on topic I have no goats around now, but have seen in horses that they are best left to develop some resistance to worms rather than treated without cause. If your feeding a natural product that is a natural poison (as some are) I don't see that as much different than the chemical poisons. Killing off the worms before the critter has the chance to learn to fight them it's self IMO is shooting yourself in the foot, or maybe I should say shooting the critter in the hoof. If your feeding a natural product that is immune supportive or digestive purgative or just known to reduce the egg shedding of some worms I can see in theory how that might be helpful. However I have yet to see enough of a change to say that it's working well for anyone that I have watched try it alone, however I admit I have not seen anyone really stick with it either. I have seen some doing better with herbal help than those around them using chemicals only.

So there is probably little correlation between horses and goats, but I'll put this out there anyway. That barn that I was at with the goats used to have very strict old school policies on worming. The horses were to be wormed on the barn's schedule and it was part of the price of the board. She called the vet every 2 months, the wormer of choice (rotation schedule) was delivered and we administered it. And the horses got weaker and the worms got resistant, and we had to move to the winter 5DDFB to solve it, ever after only summer worming horses that looked like they needed it and never everyone at the same time. Not a surprise, the same lesson many have learned and to me it looks like goat owners are learning it too.

Lastly I gotta say go with what works for you and your farm. I had a great idea how to handle worms many times in my life and then I moved and found out I knew nothing all over again. Everything else in your management will have an impact on your worming routine, as will your location and climate. My last move, coming here and seeing wild deer belly up to my round bale feeders right beside my horses in winter, and graze right beside them in summer while moose waded in their water supply eating their browse of wetland plants I thought I'd have the worst worm issues ever. I have had some of the least instead. Now the external parasites, that's another story.... Lice and/or deer ticks anyone? Yours for the cost of shipping!

And for anyone fearful of discussing this or anything here the report button is your friend. It's on the bottom right of every offensive post.

 

[rebelINny]

Well I will be dosing all my goats Ivomec right now and then they will go back on the herbal wormer every week. I will do fecal test to watch them. I just need to knock out the huge amounts first to get them manageable with the herbs. The herbs aren't meant to unload a loaded goat only to manage them from a low count from then on out.

 

[cmjust0]

Well I will be dosing all my goats Ivomec right now and then they will go back on the herbal wormer every week. I will do fecal test to watch them. I just need to knock out the huge amounts first to get them manageable with the herbs. The herbs aren't meant to unload a loaded goat only to manage them from a low count from then on out.

The question then becomes...even if the herbs are meant to manage worms starting from a low EPG count, why would the goats have developed a high EPG in the first place if they'd been wormed with herbals throughout the spring and summer?

 

[freemotion]

Well I will be dosing all my goats Ivomec right now and then they will go back on the herbal wormer every week. I will do fecal test to watch them. I just need to knock out the huge amounts first to get them manageable with the herbs. The herbs aren't meant to unload a loaded goat only to manage them from a low count from then on out.

The question then becomes...even if the herbs are meant to manage worms starting from a low EPG count, why would the goats have developed a high EPG in the first place if they'd been wormed with herbals throughout the spring and summer?

Same reason they develop high counts on chemical dewormers.