Buck with snotty nose, crusty eyes and scours-update 9-22

[jodief100]

I gave him a Cydectin/ivometctin cocktail. I have Prohibit if needed but I have never used it and want to keep the nuculear option in check as long as possible.

I read over some research I have from Susan Schoenian about parasites in samll ruminants:

"With the exception of Nematodirus, all strongyle (roundworm) eggs look the same. As a result, the eggs must be hatched to identify the type of worm (from the larvae)."

So apparently the worms are easy to differentiate but the eggs are not. Since Haemonchus (barberpole) is the biggest problem and the most common, it is best to assume baberpole when you see stronglyes. It could be Trichostronglyus or Mematodirus but does it really matter? When you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras. I am going to treat for baberpole.

Well, this is a good opportunity to see what kind of resistance the worms on my farm have.

 

[cmjust0]

I have had a couple barber pole worm cases with bad scours.

If I had to guess, I'd say the scour and barberpole infestation were unrelated.. Reason being, diarrhea is a lower intestinal "decision" (for lack of a better term) and barberpoles reside in the abomasum.. By the time a detached barberpole reaches the lower intestine, its so mascerated that it's basically food.. The only way I can really picture them causing diarrhea is either by spilling so much blood into the stomach that the intestines recognize it and try to expel it, or if the worms cause the abomasal pH to fluctuate.. But, generally, that much blood just makes a black stool and worms tend to raise pH and make the GI more alkaline, and pH-related scour is almost always when things have become too acidic..

Bear in mind that I'm not saying "THAT COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED!!" We're dealing with goats here -- the possibilities are limitless. I'm just saying that I've never seen it, and I can't wrap my mind around exactly what effect a stomach worm infection would have on the lower GI to cause diarrhea..

It could be Trichostronglyus or Mematodirus but does it really matter? When you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras.

Generally, I agree with this.. But your 'hoof beats' in this case would be the scour, and in my experience is that barberpoles don't generally cause a scour.. So, in a way, barberpoles would *be* the zebra in this case, if that makes any sense.. Some type of *intestinal* worm would be the horse..

To my thinking, anyway...for whatever that's worth.

 

[elevan]

I'm curious why you've given a cydectin / ivermectin combination? They are within the same class and are very closely related. You could be building a resistance to this class by double dosing in this way...

I would definitely use cydectin but would combo it with another dewormer class...

 

[Roll farms]

I'm curious why you've given a cydectin / ivermectin combination? They are within the same class and are very closely related. You could be building a resistance to this class by double dosing in this way...

I would definitely use cydectin but would combo it with another dewormer class...

I agree, I'd have used ivo or cydectin w/ Valbazen. BUT - if it works, that's what counts.

 

[cmjust0]

You could be building a resistance to this class by double dosing in this way...

I can see wondering why she wouldn't have just given a double dose of one or the other versus a combination of both, but I'm not seeing how it would tend toward building resistance.. Typically, resistance is the result of underdosing a class and worming too frequently..

How did you come to the conclusion that double dosing a single class on an as-needed basis would lead to resistance?

 

[Roll farms]

Ahem - for clarification's sake, I'm just saying I'da mixed 2 different classes, hoping for better kill, not saying it'd build resistance.

 

[jodief100]

I'm curious why you've given a cydectin / ivermectin combination? They are within the same class and are very closely related. You could be building a resistance to this class by double dosing in this way...

I would definitely use cydectin but would combo it with another dewormer class...

I already have some resistanace to the ivomectin on my farm. The cydectin "seems" to be working but this may test that theory. I have read some research showing two wormers combined work better than either by themselves. I know they are in the same class but I was just thinking- lets give this a try. I want to hold the lavamisole I have in reserve in case this doesn't work and I don't have valbazen. What wormer class is valbazen?

Really, it is just an experiment.

 

[Roll farms]

It's a white wormer in the same class as safeguard but a bazillion times more effective - here anyway. I only have to do 2x the label dose instead of 4x.
BUT, since it shouldn't be given to pregos, I keep it as my last resort....b/c someone's usually pregnant. The label says not to use in the 1st 45 days after breeding, but I don't like to take chances...

 

[cmjust0]

I already have some resistanace to the ivomectin on my farm. The cydectin "seems" to be working but this may test that theory. I have read some research showing two wormers combined work better than either by themselves. I know they are in the same class but I was just thinking- lets give this a try. I want to hold the lavamisole I have in reserve in case this doesn't work and I don't have valbazen. What wormer class is valbazen?

Really, it is just an experiment.

Valbazen's active ingredient is albendazole, which is in the benzamidazole class.. It's a 'white wormer,' like Safe-Guard (which is fenbendazole).. I tend to sorta think of it like:

Safe-Guard is to Valbazen as Ivomec is to Cydectin.. Same stuff, just *maybe* a little stouter..

Btw, I think it's an interesting theory to be trying out, especially since cydectin seems to be in short supply.. Worms that are ivermectin resistent can sometimes be killed off with cydectin, but you kinda have to wonder if ivermectin would get them close enough that *a little* cydectin is enough to push them over the edge...if that makes any sense at all. If nothing else, proving this to be effective would allow people with short supplies of cydectin to use less of it by substituting a portion of the dose with regular ol' ivermectin.. Which is also cheaper, I'd add..

So yeah, I kinda can see where you're headin'.. Keep us posted.

 

[elevan]

You could be building a resistance to this class by double dosing in this way...

I can see wondering why she wouldn't have just given a double dose of one or the other versus a combination of both, but I'm not seeing how it would tend toward building resistance.. Typically, resistance is the result of underdosing a class and worming too frequently..

How did you come to the conclusion that double dosing a single class on an as-needed basis would lead to resistance?

Ok...maybe I didn't word that as clearly as I intended. I was going with an assumption that she already has a resistance to ivermectin (why else would you double dose) and as she has stated I was right on that. So she's continuing to dose something that she knows she's resistant to (at some extent) which will only help build more resistance and dosing it with a very closely related drug while albeit a more effective one. It has been stressed over and over again that caution should be used with cydectin so that it doesn't end up in the same boat as ivermectin. It just doesn't make sense to me to dose the 2 together when you have a resistance to that drug...you're just adding fuel to the fire of the resistance problem. :/

If that's confusing, I'm sorry...going on very little sleep and not feeling the best right now...I'm not sure that I'm making sense to myself...if what I just said needs clarification to anyone please say so and I'll try to explain better.

eta: I'm not a scientist or a vet...so I'm really just talking this out...and I did say could...not would.

eta2: resistance is developed after exposure...and unless the farm does a drench rite they truly don't know if they are underdosing.