Don't tell ME that CAE is "no big deal"

[aggieterpkatie]

I am very sorry to hear about your troubles with CAE, DonnaBelle. I don't mean to take anything away from your post, and it truly sad you're having such difficulties with it. Perhaps the person who sold you the goats didn't know about them being positive? Unless your one positive doe is the mother of all the other ones, I seriously doubt she passed CAE to them just living in the herd with them.

I have a slightly differing opinion of CAE. It CAN be managed, but some animals handle the disease differently. I don't like the disease, and I don't think people should knowingly let CAE+ animals raise their kids, since it is so easy to prevent. I did freak out big time when I found out my original doe was CAE+. I thought it was the end of the world. My doe is asymptomatic, and her dam lived to be 13 and was also asymptomatic. Not all animals who are positive (or test positive) show signs, which is why some people don't do anything to try to eradicate it.

I pull all kids from my positive doe at birth, and I currently own her 2 year old daughter who is CAE-. They are housed together, and I've never had a problem. If my doe were to ever show signs of the disease that would cause her pain, I would have her euthanized and not sell her to be someone else's problem.

Not everyone knows to test for the disease, and we all need to do our own due diligence when purchasing animals. I didn't know about it when I first got my doe, but now I do.

Straw Hat Kikos, I do believe you're misinformed about CAE being transmitted through all body fluids. If that were the case, then pulling kids at birth and feeding pasteurized colostrum and milk would be a moot point, since it would have been transferred to the kids invitro. Colostrum/milk is currently the only known cause of transmission, but people speculate and sometimes pass on incorrect information.

CL, IMO is worse than CAE because it is zoonotic (which means it IS transferrable to humans), and it damages meat and milk, and many times can go unnoticed if abcesses are internal. CL does not just "give you a rash for a few days". Here's an article on a study done on humans with lymphadenitis. http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/185.full.pdf It's also MUCH, MUCH easier for animals to pass along CL than it is to pass along CAE.

I do believe all positive animals should have their kids pulled at birth in order to prevent the spread of the disease. It's easy to do, and it works. It's up to the buyer to inquire about health testing, because most people who have CAE+ goats don't even know it.

 

[Straw Hat Kikos]

Straw Hat Kikos, I do believe you're misinformed about CAE being transmitted through all body fluids. If that were the case, then pulling kids at birth and feeding pasteurized colostrum and milk would be a moot point, since it would have been transferred to the kids invitro. Colostrum/milk is currently the only known cause of transmission, but people speculate and sometimes pass on incorrect information.

CL, IMO is worse than CAE because it is zoonotic (which means it IS transferrable to humans), and it damages meat and milk, and many times can go unnoticed if abcesses are internal. CL does not just "give you a rash for a few days". Here's an article on a study done on humans with lymphadenitis. http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/185.full.pdf

No I am not. I believe you may be. Do your research and talk to vets. It IS transmitted thru all body fluids NOT just milk. As I always say, do your research. Talk to vets. It is transmitted thru all body fluids not just milk.

Yes it is zoonotic but it does not do us harm. On the SUPER SUPER rare chance something happens it is a little rash. It doesn't do much if anyhting to you and it really doesn't hurt the animal. CAE is very bad to the animal. Very bad. And yes CL can go internal but that is not just normal plain CL. Internal CL is very serious and all animals no matter what should be culled if they have internal CL imo. All animals. Internal CL is very bad and does do harm to the goat.

Doesn't damage meat. Doesn't damage milk unless it got in it which I don't see that happening often, or at all really.

If CL goes internal it is pretty easy to see and does not go unnoticed.

CL is just a bacteria that is in the lymph system that every once and a while the body gathers enough of it and expels it. Not a big deal. Again, really do the research and see for yourself.

ETA: CL is incredibly easy to control. Extremely easy really. CAE? No it is not. All body fluids at any time vs one body fluid once every six months to only once in a lifetime.

 

[babsbag]

So, is there a good source to learn how to draw blood for the test for CAE and CL? I want to learn and take care of this asap!

Where are you in California? If you are anywhere close to Redding I have a friend that will come and teach you. You can send the blood into UC Davis for the tests.

 

[aggieterpkatie]

Straw Hat Kikos, I do believe you're misinformed about CAE being transmitted through all body fluids. If that were the case, then pulling kids at birth and feeding pasteurized colostrum and milk would be a moot point, since it would have been transferred to the kids invitro. Colostrum/milk is currently the only known cause of transmission, but people speculate and sometimes pass on incorrect information.

CL, IMO is worse than CAE because it is zoonotic (which means it IS transferrable to humans), and it damages meat and milk, and many times can go unnoticed if abcesses are internal. CL does not just "give you a rash for a few days". Here's an article on a study done on humans with lymphadenitis. http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/185.full.pdf

No I am not. I believe you may be. Do your research and talk to vets. It IS transmitted thru all body fluids NOT just milk. As I always say, do your research. Talk to vets. It is transmitted thru all body fluids not just milk.

Yes it is zoonotic but it does not do us harm. On the SUPER SUPER rare chance something happens it is a little rash. It doesn't do much if anyhting to you and it really doesn't hurt the animal. CAE is very bad to the animal. Very bad. And yes CL can go internal but that is not just normal plain CL. Internal CL is very serious and all animals no matter what should be culled if they have internal CL imo. All animals. Internal CL is very bad and does do harm to the goat.

Doesn't damage meat. Doesn't damage milk unless it got in it which I don't see that happening often, or at all really.

If CL goes internal it is pretty easy to see and does not go unnoticed.

CL is just a bacteria that is in the lymph system that every once and a while the body gathers enough of it and expels it. Not a big deal. Again, really do the research and see for yourself.

ETA: CL is incredibly easy to control. Extremely easy really. CAE? No it is not. All body fluids at any time vs one body fluid once every six months to only once in a lifetime.

Please find me any article that proves CAE is transmitted through all bodily fluids. There is speculation that there may be a *chance* of transmission through blood, but the main transmission is through colostrum and milk shortly after birth. It's more rare for adult goats to spread or get the disease outside of lactation. If it was 100% positively spread through all bodily fluids, it would be impossible to prevent a kid from catching the disease by pulling them at birth and bottle feeding them.

And CL is very commonly internal, and is not seen until slaughter. Many sheep have internal abscesses and there are no signs. Goats can also have CL abscesses in the udder that can go unseen.

About CL transmission from WADDL :

Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis, the bacterium that causes the disease CL, is spread from animal to animal primarily through contact with material from subcutaneous abscesses (pus) or fomites (inanimate objects) contaminated with abscess material. The organism can survive several months in the soil and environment, remaining a source of infection. Though much less common than visible subcutaneous abscesses, abscesses may also form in the lungs and abdominal organs as a result of spread of the organism within the animal via blood or lymph. When abscesses are present in the lungs, the organism may be transmitted through respiratory secretions (nasal discharge or coughing). In rare cases, C. pseudotuberculosis may be present in the milk. Although CL is not sexually transmitted, it is recommended to avoid natural breeding of animals with abscesses.

I really don't want to get into a debate on opinions of the diseases. It's up to each owner to research it and do what's best for them. I just wanted to point out a few different conclusions on the diseases. CL isn't something to dismiss as "not a big deal". Both diseases are manageable, and responsible management should include doing everything possible to avoid spreading the diseases.

 

[Pearce Pastures]

Conclusive studies are limited right now because it seems that the issue with CAEV has not previously been a hot topic, but it is becoming one so I bet we will start to learn more as it is researched further. A definitive method of transfer is through milk but there is growing evidence that it is present in saliva and can be passed in utero or during birth.

Not that this is the be all, end all to this but here is at least something as a point of reference for this from the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/emergingissues/downloads/prcaevinfosheet.pdf

I personally don't want CL or CAEV in my herd, both for my animals health and for ours.

 

[aggieterpkatie]

It definitely needs to be studied further. WADDL says transmission to/from adult animals is rare. Merck says "Unlikely methods of transmission, as indicated by experimental studies, include in utero transmission to the fetus, infection of the kid during parturition, and infection through breeding or embryo transfer."

 

[DonnaBelle]

OK, guys, here's my delimma:

I have research from Joan Dean Rowe, DVM, PHD- Food Animal Reproduction & Herd Health
Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital, University of California
Davis, California 95616.


I don't have the ability to scan this information which I received from my Vet. It also has a lot of other reading materials recommended at the end of the article.

I will be glad to mail it to someone who can scan these articles and post them on here for references.

If someone will do this, you can PM me your address and I'll send a copy.

DonnaBelle

 

[DonnaBelle]

Ok guys, I've got this article in an envelope and ready to mail to barred rock mamma.

She's going to scan it and post it on here for all to read.

DonnaBelle

 

[Pearce Pastures]

Thanks

 

[BlondeSquirrel04]

I am very sorry to hear about your troubles with CAE, DonnaBelle. I don't mean to take anything away from your post, and it truly sad you're having such difficulties with it. Perhaps the person who sold you the goats didn't know about them being positive? Unless your one positive doe is the mother of all the other ones, I seriously doubt she passed CAE to them just living in the herd with them.

I have a slightly differing opinion of CAE. It CAN be managed, but some animals handle the disease differently. I don't like the disease, and I don't think people should knowingly let CAE+ animals raise their kids, since it is so easy to prevent. I did freak out big time when I found out my original doe was CAE+. I thought it was the end of the world. My doe is asymptomatic, and her dam lived to be 13 and was also asymptomatic. Not all animals who are positive (or test positive) show signs, which is why some people don't do anything to try to eradicate it.

I pull all kids from my positive doe at birth, and I currently own her 2 year old daughter who is CAE-. They are housed together, and I've never had a problem. If my doe were to ever show signs of the disease that would cause her pain, I would have her euthanized and not sell her to be someone else's problem.

Not everyone knows to test for the disease, and we all need to do our own due diligence when purchasing animals. I didn't know about it when I first got my doe, but now I do.

Straw Hat Kikos, I do believe you're misinformed about CAE being transmitted through all body fluids. If that were the case, then pulling kids at birth and feeding pasteurized colostrum and milk would be a moot point, since it would have been transferred to the kids invitro. Colostrum/milk is currently the only known cause of transmission, but people speculate and sometimes pass on incorrect information.

CL, IMO is worse than CAE because it is zoonotic (which means it IS transferrable to humans), and it damages meat and milk, and many times can go unnoticed if abcesses are internal. CL does not just "give you a rash for a few days". Here's an article on a study done on humans with lymphadenitis. http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/185.full.pdf It's also MUCH, MUCH easier for animals to pass along CL than it is to pass along CAE.

I do believe all positive animals should have their kids pulled at birth in order to prevent the spread of the disease. It's easy to do, and it works. It's up to the buyer to inquire about health testing, because most people who have CAE+ goats don't even know it.

Some observations in reading that article are that there were 12 cases in 20 years. Some of which had no contact with farm animals, and others had a little too much contact with abscesses in which they squeezed them with bare hands. None of which were from hobby goat owners.

I'll take my chances with CL. CAE....no way.