New Livestock Med Laws!!

[casportpony]

Actually Baytril is not allowed extra label use in any food producing animal. Vet or no vet. It is listed for use in non-lactating cattle and in swine.

I am not saying what is right or wrong, only what is legally allowed. Your vet could lose their license over this. I also can't say that I wouldn't do the same as I trust myself to be responsible.

I know there are vets that won't prescribe it, but there are plenty that do.

Curiously, what do people do for their livestock when they require treatment for pesky bacteria that are resistant to all the usual antibiotics (tetracyline, amoxicillin, sulfa, tylosin, etc)?

 

[greybeard]

As long as you're doing it with a vet's OK, I guess that makes it OK... Just have to observe the withdrawal periods.

What Babsbag said..

1.It is to some extent, to address this, that prompted FDA to implement VFD. It's not just about small and large producers using antibiotics--VFD also puts the medical community on notice, as more strict record keeping and reporting will be a big part of VFD, both for the end user and the vet writing the prescription.

We have to remember, that 'we' are, in the eyes of the vast majority of the global public, the 'bad guys' here. They don't care (understandable) that I may lose a calf, or that casportpony may lose some poultry--they only know there is a possibility that they may lose a child or other loved one if an antigen becomes immune or resistant to what was previously an effective antibiotic. It's not just vets and producers that have caused antimicrobial resistance--family & general practitioners are to blame as well, as are we all-- in expecting what we used to call 'wonder drugs' to magically cure our human ills.

It's also not just the problems created in meat or milk producing or human food use animals. Many of the bacteria we need to fight, are naturally present in the soil. Commonly used antibiotics are excreted in the urine and feces of our animals, interact with the naturally occurring antigens in the soil microbiome and resistance to those antibiotics can and often does begin.
Officially, (according to the USDA census) there are about 2.2 million farms and ranches in the USA. Probably closer to 3 million if every little hobby or backyard farm was counted. (How many here received and returned a USDA census form? Probably not many)
Even according to USDA, about 40% of the recognized farms are small farmers with little or no actual income from their farm--that's nearly 1/2. Small in production, but large in numbers.
3 million--seems like a large number of families, but compared to the 123 million total households in the US, we as farmers are very much a minority. That means that there are 120 million households, that while recognizing the strong importance of food production, they also see "US" as one of the culprits responsible for antibiotic resistance and inefficiency.
FDA takes (as do I) a long view of things, and to be honest, their responsibility is to the majority's well being, more so than our convenience. They aren't asking us to sit idly by and watch our animals die--they are simply insisting that we be responsible in our actions, and follow rules and regulations--some of which have already been in place a very long time but still greatly ignored or abused.

2 From a purely ethical standpoint....
As I stated earlier, 'we' members aren't the only ones reading this. Right now, there are 10 members and 74 guests viewing BYH. Many people find this website while looking for information. One of the purposes of a discussion board such as BYH is to teach. To mentor the many very young people who are interested in raising a few animals on small acreage simply for the enjoyment and experience of it, and to provide insight thru our years of experience to older people who may want to return to their roots in a small way in agriculture. 4H/FFA and just the kid that has a desire to do something besides play video games.
Perhaps we should ask ourselves..
Are we leading by example?
Are we doing the 'right thing' when we post ways to get around rules and regulations?
Do we really need to be handing more ammunition to the many people who basically view 'us' as villains and part of the problem regarding the subject of over use and inappropriate use of antibiotics?
I don't think so. I work a lot with kids, local 4H/FFA, spend lots of time, $$, and have had them out here learning to use a cattle handling facility, learn as we work the cattle, treat for illness, deworm, and administer vaccines. I can't imagine me standing there telling them to ignore or bypass VFD or any other regulations or instructions on a bottle of drugs, but that's exactly what often happens on internet boards.
We now, thru FDA's VFD, find ourselves in a bit of a hole, finding it more difficult to deal with our herds' medical problems. One thing I have learned in 66 years..when I find myself in a hole--stop digging.

 

[Goat Whisperer]

Fantastic post @greybeard

 

[babsbag]

Curiously, what do people do for their livestock when they require treatment for pesky bacteria that are resistant to all the usual antibiotics (tetracyline, amoxicillin, sulfa, tylosin, etc)?

Since I live in CA and have access to a great lab and a great vet I send cultures to CAHFS and find out what drug will work. There are usually many options but so far it has always been a common antibiotic that has done the trick.

These are the drugs that CANNOT be used extra label in food producing animals. If they are not labeled for use in a specific animal species they can't be used, even under the advice from your vet.

• CHLORAMPHENICOL
• CLENBUTEROL
• DIETHYLSTILBESTEROL (DES)
• FLUOROQUINOLONE–CLASS ANTIBIOTICS
• GLYCOPEPTIDES – all agents, including VANCOMYCIN
• MEDICATED FEEDS
• NITROIMIDAZOLES – all agents, including DIMETRIDAZOLE, IPRONIDAZOLE, METRONIDAZOLE and others
• NITROFURANS – all agents, including FURAZOLIDINE, NITROFURAZONE and others

Since I will have a dairy here and will be selling milk and cheese I need to pay extra attention to the drugs I give my goats. The milk is only tested for Pen. but it is my job to make sure there aren't any other residues in the milk. If I had a chronically sick goat I would have to cull her or at the very least pull her from the milking string permanently. But if she is sick and contagious and not responding to treatment I will have to be the cold hearted producer and send her packing. I have one like that right now....

We need to remember the big picture though. Someday it may be one of us or a loved one facing a resistant bug and then what? A human life is always more important that an animal. (even though I sometimes like animals better than some humans. ) The FDA is not being "mean" or "picking on ranchers". They are protecting human life...like Star Trek..."the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few" and we just happen to the "few".

 

[Southern by choice]

What Babsbag said..

1.It is to some extent, to address this, that prompted FDA to implement VFD. It's not just about small and large producers using antibiotics--VFD also puts the medical community on notice, as more strict record keeping and reporting will be a big part of VFD, both for the end user and the vet writing the prescription.

We have to remember, that 'we' are, in the eyes of the vast majority of the global public, the 'bad guys' here. They don't care (understandable) that I may lose a calf, or that casportpony may lose some poultry--they only know there is a possibility that they may lose a child or other loved one if an antigen becomes immune or resistant to what was previously an effective antibiotic. It's not just vets and producers that have caused antimicrobial resistance--family & general practitioners are to blame as well, as are we all-- in expecting what we used to call 'wonder drugs' to magically cure our human ills.

It's also not just the problems created in meat or milk producing or human food use animals. Many of the bacteria we need to fight, are naturally present in the soil. Commonly used antibiotics are excreted in the urine and feces of our animals, interact with the naturally occurring antigens in the soil microbiome and resistance to those antibiotics can and often does begin.
Officially, (according to the USDA census) there are about 2.2 million farms and ranches in the USA. Probably closer to 3 million if every little hobby or backyard farm was counted. (How many here received and returned a USDA census form? Probably not many)
Even according to USDA, about 40% of the recognized farms are small farmers with little or no actual income from their farm--that's nearly 1/2. Small in production, but large in numbers.
3 million--seems like a large number of families, but compared to the 123 million total households in the US, we as farmers are very much a minority. That means that there are 120 million households, that while recognizing the strong importance of food production, they also see "US" as one of the culprits responsible for antibiotic resistance and inefficiency.
FDA takes (as do I) a long view of things, and to be honest, their responsibility is to the majority's well being, more so than our convenience. They aren't asking us to sit idly by and watch our animals die--they are simply insisting that we be responsible in our actions, and follow rules and regulations--some of which have already been in place a very long time but still greatly ignored or abused.

2 From a purely ethical standpoint....
As I stated earlier, 'we' members aren't the only ones reading this. Right now, there are 10 members and 74 guests viewing BYH. Many people find this website while looking for information. One of the purposes of a discussion board such as BYH is to teach. To mentor the many very young people who are interested in raising a few animals on small acreage simply for the enjoyment and experience of it, and to provide insight thru our years of experience to older people who may want to return to their roots in a small way in agriculture. 4H/FFA and just the kid that has a desire to do something besides play video games.
Perhaps we should ask ourselves..
Are we leading by example?
Are we doing the 'right thing' when we post ways to get around rules and regulations?
Do we really need to be handing more ammunition to the many people who basically view 'us' as villains and part of the problem regarding the subject of over use and inappropriate use of antibiotics?
I don't think so. I work a lot with kids, local 4H/FFA, spend lots of time, $$, and have had them out here learning to use a cattle handling facility, learn as we work the cattle, treat for illness, deworm, and administer vaccines. I can't imagine me standing there telling them and telling them to ignore or bypass VFD or any other regulations or instructions on a bottle of drugs, but that's exactly what often happens on internet boards.
We now, thru FDA's VFD, find ourselves in a bit of a hole, finding it more difficult to deal with our herds' medical problems. One thing I have learned in 66 years..when I find myself in a hole--stop digging.

Well said.

"Are we leading by example?"
"Are we doing the 'right thing' when we post ways to get around rules and regulations?"

Exactly!

Instead of fretting over the Rx and restrictions the focus should be on helping others understand how to keep healthy goats and minimize health issues.
It is irresponsible for anyone to encourage others to "get around" it or encourage illegal use of the Rx meds.
If you cannot afford a vet then do not keep livestock. If you are in a region that has no vet that you can work with then perhaps the species you desire may not be the best option.

Breeders do have a responsibility when selling their animals as well.

If respiratory issues are prevalent then vaccinating is a far better option.
Understanding parasites and how to deal with them is another big issue.

I do think the FDA has just made the livestock industry its scapegoat however. What if MD's were under the same scrutiny? This is where the real resistance has come in. Physicians over prescribing antibiotics unnecessarily. Then when easier more potent ab's came out it was the beginning of the resistance battle. Drs. handing out the stronger RX that "you only have to take for 5 days 2x day... instead of 10 days 4x day... you know it was more convenient but also started big issues.

The vets I know are very upset about the new laws/regulations.

 

[greybeard]

Babsbag:
I'm old enough to remember when DES implants and feed additives were taught as being THE thing to use to increase production in beef cattle...
Even the FDA can get it wrong.

Thus the time-line for the rise and fall of DES is as follows.
1954 FDA approves oral DES feeding.
1957 FDA approves DES implants.
1959–1975 USDA isotope studies show DES residues of < 2 to 3 ppb.
1972 FDA bans oral DES; 120 d withdrawal for DES implants.
1973 FDA bans DES implants. FDA prosecutes cattle feeders with “DES-contaminated” cattle.
1974 U.S. Court of Appeals overturns ban; FDA failed to hold proper hearings.
1977 FDA holds DES hearings.
1979 FDA bans all use of DES in cattle production

Southern by Choice:
I agree agriculture is being scapegoated, but it's not without some merit, and yes, my generation and my children's generation certainly saw a LOT of over prescribing antibiotic use in humans.
"Oh, we're not exactly sure what's going on there with little Greybeard, but we're gonna give him a shot of sulfa and pen just to be sure.."
It happened a lot.
(didn't help me any--turned out I was allergic to both and dang near died from the 'cure')

 

[misfitmorgan]

If you cannot afford a vet then do not keep livestock. If you are in a region that has no vet that you can work with then perhaps the species you desire may not be the best option.

So i should only have a large number of cattle and my dogs only....?

That's not right that i should be restricted to only a cattle herd because the vets where i live are to money hungry.

 

[babsbag]

I really don't understand why the vets should be upset, nothing has really changed for them other than issuing the directive for feed additives. The general use of injectable antibiotics isn't changing; unless of course they feel that there is going to be more scrutiny by the FDA over their entire practice. The ELDU directives have been around for a long while.

 

[babsbag]

For animals that don't depend on medicated feed this should really be a non issue. I think that the cattle, swine, and poultry producers will notice the new laws the most.

 

[babsbag]

@misfitmorgan Do have a vet that will treat goats and just not make farm calls? Will they work with you at all? Can you take goats to them for a "check up" with the understanding that in an emergency you can call and get meds that are OTC? They don't have to see every animal, just a representation of the "herd" and they don't have to see the animal when it is sick if there is knowledge of the herd.